{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":12.34,"endTime":15.579999999999998,"body":"Welcome to Punk News Weekly. I'm"},{"startTime":12.34,"endTime":15.579999999999998,"body":"joined today by a friend"},{"startTime":15.579999999999998,"endTime":19.689999999999998,"body":"actually, I met him in the bar"},{"startTime":15.579999999999998,"endTime":19.689999999999998,"body":"at Podcast Movement in L.A. His"},{"startTime":19.689999999999998,"endTime":23.240000000000002,"body":"name is Gordon Firemark. He's"},{"startTime":19.689999999999998,"endTime":23.240000000000002,"body":"known as the podcast lawyer."},{"startTime":23.259999999999998,"endTime":24.549999999999997,"body":"Gordon, hello, how are you?"},{"startTime":25.18,"endTime":27.1,"body":"Hi, Sam. It's great to be here."},{"startTime":25.18,"endTime":27.1,"body":"I'm doing well, thanks."},{"startTime":27.67,"endTime":32.08,"body":"Good. Now, how did you get that"},{"startTime":27.67,"endTime":32.08,"body":"wonderful moniker of the podcast"},{"startTime":32.08,"endTime":32.5,"body":"Lawyer?"},{"startTime":33.1,"endTime":36.01,"body":"Well, I'll tell you, I was a"},{"startTime":33.1,"endTime":36.01,"body":"lawyer first, and as I was"},{"startTime":36.01,"endTime":39.58,"body":"getting into marketing my"},{"startTime":36.01,"endTime":39.58,"body":"practice and being a bit of a"},{"startTime":39.58,"endTime":42.339999999999996,"body":"geek, I was following Leo"},{"startTime":39.58,"endTime":42.339999999999996,"body":"Laporte when he left television"},{"startTime":42.339999999999996,"endTime":45.58,"body":"and went and started the Twit"},{"startTime":42.339999999999996,"endTime":45.58,"body":"Network. And I thought, That's"},{"startTime":45.58,"endTime":47.71,"body":"cool, maybe that's something I"},{"startTime":45.58,"endTime":47.71,"body":"can do. And having had a"},{"startTime":47.71,"endTime":51.28,"body":"background as a sound engineer"},{"startTime":47.71,"endTime":51.28,"body":"before I became a lawyer, I"},{"startTime":51.28,"endTime":54.31,"body":"thought, okay, I can make this"},{"startTime":51.28,"endTime":54.31,"body":"work. Being a geek, connect the"},{"startTime":54.31,"endTime":57.94,"body":"dots. And this is in the early"},{"startTime":54.31,"endTime":57.94,"body":"days when you so hand coded your"},{"startTime":57.94,"endTime":61.57,"body":"RSS feeds. And then I started my"},{"startTime":57.94,"endTime":61.57,"body":"own podcast after having been a"},{"startTime":61.57,"endTime":65.986,"body":"guest on a couple of other shows,"},{"startTime":61.57,"endTime":65.986,"body":"and I at that time I went sort"},{"startTime":65.986,"endTime":69.43599999999999,"body":"of looking for the legal"},{"startTime":65.986,"endTime":69.43599999999999,"body":"guidance for podcasters being an"},{"startTime":69.43599999999999,"endTime":72.136,"body":"entertainment lawyer. I kind of"},{"startTime":69.43599999999999,"endTime":72.136,"body":"knew the basic framework, but I"},{"startTime":72.136,"endTime":76.246,"body":"wanted to identify the nuance"},{"startTime":72.136,"endTime":76.246,"body":"and there were no resources. So"},{"startTime":76.246,"endTime":79.096,"body":"I sat down and I wrote a book"},{"startTime":76.246,"endTime":79.096,"body":"called the Podcast Blog in New"},{"startTime":79.096,"endTime":82.366,"body":"Media Producers Legal Survival"},{"startTime":79.096,"endTime":82.366,"body":"Guide. And when you write a book"},{"startTime":82.366,"endTime":84.706,"body":"that makes you the expert,"},{"startTime":82.366,"endTime":84.706,"body":"certainly more than anybody who"},{"startTime":84.706,"endTime":88.756,"body":"hasn't written a book. So that"},{"startTime":84.706,"endTime":88.756,"body":"kind of grew. And I became known"},{"startTime":88.756,"endTime":92.056,"body":"and speaking at conferences and"},{"startTime":88.756,"endTime":92.056,"body":"events, and a few people started"},{"startTime":92.056,"endTime":96.316,"body":"introducing me that way as the"},{"startTime":92.056,"endTime":96.316,"body":"podcast lawyer, I embraced it"},{"startTime":96.316,"endTime":100.336,"body":"and latched on to it and decided,"},{"startTime":96.316,"endTime":100.336,"body":"okay, this is my brand. And"},{"startTime":100.606,"endTime":103.546,"body":"fortunately I'm grateful. I've"},{"startTime":100.606,"endTime":103.546,"body":"been very successful marketing"},{"startTime":103.546,"endTime":104.176,"body":"with that brand."},{"startTime":104.896,"endTime":109.126,"body":"It's a very good one. Now why do"},{"startTime":104.896,"endTime":109.126,"body":"we need a podcast lawyer? I mean,"},{"startTime":109.426,"endTime":114.106,"body":"clearly I put out a podcast. I"},{"startTime":109.426,"endTime":114.106,"body":"have copyright as a given, is"},{"startTime":114.106,"endTime":114.526,"body":"not it?"},{"startTime":115.21600000000001,"endTime":119.896,"body":"Yeah, What we forget is that"},{"startTime":115.21600000000001,"endTime":119.896,"body":"making podcasts is creating"},{"startTime":119.896,"endTime":124.21600000000001,"body":"media content, and there are"},{"startTime":119.896,"endTime":124.21600000000001,"body":"rules and laws around how we go"},{"startTime":124.21600000000001,"endTime":127.006,"body":"about doing that. And it's not"},{"startTime":124.21600000000001,"endTime":127.006,"body":"just copyright, although that is"},{"startTime":127.006,"endTime":130.966,"body":"a big factor. What can you use?"},{"startTime":127.006,"endTime":130.966,"body":"How do you protect what you've"},{"startTime":130.966,"endTime":134.476,"body":"created? All of those kinds of"},{"startTime":130.966,"endTime":134.476,"body":"things. But there's also podcast"},{"startTime":134.476,"endTime":138.256,"body":"titles as brands. And so we look"},{"startTime":134.476,"endTime":138.256,"body":"into trademark registration and"},{"startTime":138.256,"endTime":141.64600000000002,"body":"protection, but also content"},{"startTime":138.256,"endTime":141.64600000000002,"body":"creators sometimes talk about"},{"startTime":141.64600000000002,"endTime":144.976,"body":"other people. And if you say"},{"startTime":141.64600000000002,"endTime":144.976,"body":"something that's false and it"},{"startTime":144.976,"endTime":148.216,"body":"hurts their reputation, now"},{"startTime":144.976,"endTime":148.216,"body":"you've got a possible defamation"},{"startTime":148.216,"endTime":151.636,"body":"libel case or something. We have"},{"startTime":148.216,"endTime":151.636,"body":"invasions of privacy. We have"},{"startTime":151.636,"endTime":156.376,"body":"deals between and among the"},{"startTime":151.636,"endTime":156.376,"body":"members of a podcast team. Let's"},{"startTime":156.376,"endTime":159.106,"body":"face it, marriage don't always"},{"startTime":156.376,"endTime":159.106,"body":"work and neither do business"},{"startTime":159.106,"endTime":162.196,"body":"partnerships in relationships."},{"startTime":159.106,"endTime":162.196,"body":"So a lot of what I do is help"},{"startTime":162.196,"endTime":165.466,"body":"clients to either structure"},{"startTime":162.196,"endTime":165.466,"body":"those relationships at the"},{"startTime":165.466,"endTime":169.126,"body":"beginning and what I can or"},{"startTime":165.466,"endTime":169.126,"body":"casually term a podcast prenup"},{"startTime":169.606,"endTime":173.716,"body":"format, or help them negotiate"},{"startTime":169.606,"endTime":173.716,"body":"the outcome when things start to"},{"startTime":173.716,"endTime":177.416,"body":"go wrong and things like that."},{"startTime":173.716,"endTime":177.416,"body":"So it's like any business, there"},{"startTime":177.446,"endTime":180.946,"body":"is a need for lawyers for some"},{"startTime":177.446,"endTime":180.946,"body":"and not for all. I think that"},{"startTime":181.186,"endTime":184.126,"body":"this is an area where the"},{"startTime":181.186,"endTime":184.126,"body":"barriers to entry are so low"},{"startTime":184.126,"endTime":186.766,"body":"that it's easy for people to"},{"startTime":184.126,"endTime":186.766,"body":"come in and not having ever"},{"startTime":186.766,"endTime":190.516,"body":"given any thought to these legal"},{"startTime":186.766,"endTime":190.516,"body":"frameworks. And so I view part"},{"startTime":190.516,"endTime":192.226,"body":"of my job as educating folks."},{"startTime":192.826,"endTime":196.816,"body":"I think, in the world of"},{"startTime":192.826,"endTime":196.816,"body":"startups, when I was writing for"},{"startTime":196.816,"endTime":200.806,"body":"TechCrunch and we used to have,"},{"startTime":196.816,"endTime":200.806,"body":"you know, some young 20 year old,"},{"startTime":201.046,"endTime":204.526,"body":"I've got a great idea, then goes,"},{"startTime":201.046,"endTime":204.526,"body":"I'm going to start a business,"},{"startTime":204.526,"endTime":209.056,"body":"gets that $99 online pack."},{"startTime":204.526,"endTime":209.056,"body":"Suddenly they're a limited"},{"startTime":209.056,"endTime":212.446,"body":"company and then they're doing"},{"startTime":209.056,"endTime":212.446,"body":"all the things and then suddenly"},{"startTime":212.446,"endTime":215.536,"body":"the IRS or the taxman goes, Oh,"},{"startTime":212.446,"endTime":215.536,"body":"by the way, you owe me some"},{"startTime":215.536,"endTime":218.566,"body":"money. Well, I have no idea what"},{"startTime":215.536,"endTime":218.566,"body":"you're doing. And by the way,"},{"startTime":218.566,"endTime":221.14600000000002,"body":"where's your copyright laws and"},{"startTime":218.566,"endTime":221.14600000000002,"body":"where's your time to conditions"},{"startTime":221.14600000000002,"endTime":225.616,"body":"and all these things? And so I"},{"startTime":221.14600000000002,"endTime":225.616,"body":"do see the similar parallels"},{"startTime":225.616,"endTime":228.226,"body":"with podcasting where people"},{"startTime":225.616,"endTime":228.226,"body":"just, oh, I just need a"},{"startTime":228.226,"endTime":232.006,"body":"microphone and I'll chat away"},{"startTime":228.226,"endTime":232.006,"body":"and I'm off and running. So"},{"startTime":232.006,"endTime":235.846,"body":"given those are the type of"},{"startTime":232.006,"endTime":235.846,"body":"things that you advise clients I"},{"startTime":235.846,"endTime":241.666,"body":"want to they get you on because"},{"startTime":235.846,"endTime":241.666,"body":"Microsoft CEO of A.I. has been"},{"startTime":241.666,"endTime":246.346,"body":"causing a few ructions in the"},{"startTime":241.666,"endTime":246.346,"body":"web. He's caused some waves by"},{"startTime":246.346,"endTime":251.536,"body":"saying that, oh, everything on"},{"startTime":246.346,"endTime":251.536,"body":"the internet is fair. Use. Now,"},{"startTime":251.536,"endTime":255.166,"body":"first of all, can you define"},{"startTime":251.536,"endTime":255.166,"body":"what is a fair use? And then"},{"startTime":255.166,"endTime":256.846,"body":"secondly, is he right?"},{"startTime":257.806,"endTime":262.426,"body":"Fair use is a defense to U.S."},{"startTime":257.806,"endTime":262.426,"body":"Copyright infringement cases."},{"startTime":262.426,"endTime":266.146,"body":"It's specifically U.S. law"},{"startTime":262.426,"endTime":266.146,"body":"because we have our First"},{"startTime":266.146,"endTime":269.83599999999996,"body":"Amendment guarantees of freedom"},{"startTime":266.146,"endTime":269.83599999999996,"body":"of speech and press. And what"},{"startTime":269.83599999999996,"endTime":273.736,"body":"the courts over the first half"},{"startTime":269.83599999999996,"endTime":273.736,"body":"of the 20th century had to do"},{"startTime":273.736,"endTime":277.90599999999995,"body":"was sort of grapple with this."},{"startTime":273.736,"endTime":277.90599999999995,"body":"Here we have a law that says you"},{"startTime":277.90599999999995,"endTime":281.77599999999995,"body":"can't copy that stuff, you can't"},{"startTime":277.90599999999995,"endTime":281.77599999999995,"body":"use it. I mean, making stuff and"},{"startTime":281.77599999999995,"endTime":285.40599999999995,"body":"another constitutional provision"},{"startTime":281.77599999999995,"endTime":285.40599999999995,"body":"that says Congress shall make no"},{"startTime":285.40599999999995,"endTime":287.866,"body":"law abridging the freedom of"},{"startTime":285.40599999999995,"endTime":287.866,"body":"speech and the press. So the"},{"startTime":287.866,"endTime":290.806,"body":"courts had to wrestle with this,"},{"startTime":287.866,"endTime":290.806,"body":"and they came up with this sort"},{"startTime":290.806,"endTime":294.82599999999996,"body":"of complicated multi-factor"},{"startTime":290.806,"endTime":294.82599999999996,"body":"balancing test that has to be"},{"startTime":294.82599999999996,"endTime":298.816,"body":"applied to each alleged"},{"startTime":294.82599999999996,"endTime":298.816,"body":"infringement to figure out is it"},{"startTime":298.816,"endTime":302.20599999999996,"body":"fair use? And those four factors"},{"startTime":298.816,"endTime":302.20599999999996,"body":"look at the purpose and"},{"startTime":302.20599999999996,"endTime":307.34499999999997,"body":"character of the allegedly"},{"startTime":302.20599999999996,"endTime":307.34499999999997,"body":"infringing work, the nature of"},{"startTime":307.34499999999997,"endTime":310.67499999999995,"body":"the original, and is there a"},{"startTime":307.34499999999997,"endTime":310.67499999999995,"body":"transformation happening and not"},{"startTime":310.67499999999995,"endTime":313.85499999999996,"body":"just transformation in terms of"},{"startTime":310.67499999999995,"endTime":313.85499999999996,"body":"changing the work, but changing"},{"startTime":313.85499999999996,"endTime":316.91499999999996,"body":"the meaning and purpose of the"},{"startTime":313.85499999999996,"endTime":316.91499999999996,"body":"work? The third factor is the"},{"startTime":316.91499999999996,"endTime":320.78499999999997,"body":"amount and substantiality of the"},{"startTime":316.91499999999996,"endTime":320.78499999999997,"body":"portion that's been taken. And"},{"startTime":320.78499999999997,"endTime":324.025,"body":"then the fourth factor has to do"},{"startTime":320.78499999999997,"endTime":324.025,"body":"with the market impact or value"},{"startTime":324.025,"endTime":327.385,"body":"impact of the infringement. So"},{"startTime":324.025,"endTime":327.385,"body":"we look at these four factors in"},{"startTime":327.385,"endTime":332.18499999999995,"body":"each individual case and so"},{"startTime":327.385,"endTime":332.18499999999995,"body":"balance it out. We look at"},{"startTime":332.18499999999995,"endTime":335.275,"body":"things like for that initial one,"},{"startTime":332.18499999999995,"endTime":335.275,"body":"the nature, the purpose and"},{"startTime":335.275,"endTime":339.41499999999996,"body":"character we look at is it an"},{"startTime":335.275,"endTime":339.41499999999996,"body":"educational use or criticism and"},{"startTime":339.41499999999996,"endTime":343.85499999999996,"body":"commentary? We value journalism"},{"startTime":339.41499999999996,"endTime":343.85499999999996,"body":"over commerce. So if you're"},{"startTime":343.85499999999996,"endTime":347.36499999999995,"body":"using a piece of material in an"},{"startTime":343.85499999999996,"endTime":347.36499999999995,"body":"ad, it would be a different"},{"startTime":347.36499999999995,"endTime":352.135,"body":"treatment than if you were using"},{"startTime":347.36499999999995,"endTime":352.135,"body":"it to to comment on the quality"},{"startTime":352.135,"endTime":355.875,"body":"of the thing or whatever. So"},{"startTime":352.135,"endTime":355.875,"body":"that's the kind of analysis that"},{"startTime":355.97499999999997,"endTime":359.24499999999995,"body":"we value it more as speech or do"},{"startTime":355.97499999999997,"endTime":359.24499999999995,"body":"we value it more as property?"},{"startTime":359.60499999999996,"endTime":362.515,"body":"And so fair use, it's this"},{"startTime":359.60499999999996,"endTime":362.515,"body":"complicated thing. You don't get"},{"startTime":362.515,"endTime":365.72499999999997,"body":"to just claim its fair use and"},{"startTime":362.515,"endTime":365.72499999999997,"body":"use things without permission."},{"startTime":366.40099999999995,"endTime":370.39099999999996,"body":"And this fellow from Microsoft,"},{"startTime":366.40099999999995,"endTime":370.39099999999996,"body":"I find it hard to believe that"},{"startTime":370.39099999999996,"endTime":373.96099999999996,"body":"he is as willfully ignorant as"},{"startTime":370.39099999999996,"endTime":373.96099999999996,"body":"he seems in that statement that"},{"startTime":373.96099999999996,"endTime":378.491,"body":"you referred to. But I read it,"},{"startTime":373.96099999999996,"endTime":378.491,"body":"and it's just preposterous for"},{"startTime":378.491,"endTime":382.03099999999995,"body":"him to suggest that by posting"},{"startTime":378.491,"endTime":382.03099999999995,"body":"something on the Web or on the"},{"startTime":382.03099999999995,"endTime":385.57099999999997,"body":"Internet, you've created a"},{"startTime":382.03099999999995,"endTime":385.57099999999997,"body":"social contract that says, go"},{"startTime":385.57099999999997,"endTime":389.41099999999994,"body":"ahead, use my stuff. If that was"},{"startTime":385.57099999999997,"endTime":389.41099999999994,"body":"the case, then every single"},{"startTime":389.41099999999994,"endTime":393.52099999999996,"body":"piece of Microsoft software that"},{"startTime":389.41099999999994,"endTime":393.52099999999996,"body":"I could possibly find on the Web,"},{"startTime":393.91099999999994,"endTime":396.101,"body":"what you just told me, I can use"},{"startTime":393.91099999999994,"endTime":396.101,"body":"it freely. I don't have to pay"},{"startTime":396.101,"endTime":396.431,"body":"for it."},{"startTime":396.76099999999997,"endTime":400.39099999999996,"body":"But here's the other side of"},{"startTime":396.76099999999997,"endTime":400.39099999999996,"body":"that coin then. So copyright"},{"startTime":400.39099999999996,"endTime":405.131,"body":"only gives me ownership of the"},{"startTime":400.39099999999996,"endTime":405.131,"body":"content. But if I don't have a"},{"startTime":405.131,"endTime":409.631,"body":"license that says Here's what"},{"startTime":405.131,"endTime":409.631,"body":"you can do with my content, Is"},{"startTime":409.631,"endTime":415.541,"body":"the default license fair use? As"},{"startTime":409.631,"endTime":415.541,"body":"in Yeah, take it, use it, do"},{"startTime":415.541,"endTime":419.53099999999995,"body":"what you like with it. Because I"},{"startTime":415.541,"endTime":419.53099999999995,"body":"haven't specifically set a"},{"startTime":419.53099999999995,"endTime":422.681,"body":"permissioned license to what you"},{"startTime":419.53099999999995,"endTime":422.681,"body":"can do."},{"startTime":423.493,"endTime":426.553,"body":"Now. Quite the contrary. What"},{"startTime":423.493,"endTime":426.553,"body":"copyright law says, and this is"},{"startTime":426.553,"endTime":429.313,"body":"universally true across all the"},{"startTime":426.553,"endTime":429.313,"body":"countries that have signed on to"},{"startTime":429.313,"endTime":433.513,"body":"the international treaty Is that"},{"startTime":429.313,"endTime":433.513,"body":"the author of the work or the"},{"startTime":433.513,"endTime":437.47299999999996,"body":"owner, if they've sold it, has"},{"startTime":433.513,"endTime":437.47299999999996,"body":"the exclusive rights to do"},{"startTime":437.47299999999996,"endTime":440.503,"body":"certain things, to make copies,"},{"startTime":437.47299999999996,"endTime":440.503,"body":"distribute them, perform,"},{"startTime":440.503,"endTime":445.993,"body":"display or make derivative works."},{"startTime":440.503,"endTime":445.993,"body":"So unless someone who wants to"},{"startTime":445.993,"endTime":449.29299999999995,"body":"use the material has been given"},{"startTime":445.993,"endTime":449.29299999999995,"body":"permission, typically in the"},{"startTime":449.29299999999995,"endTime":453.43899999999996,"body":"form of a license agreement,"},{"startTime":449.29299999999995,"endTime":453.43899999999996,"body":"then that what they have is no"},{"startTime":453.43899999999996,"endTime":457.11899999999997,"body":"right whatsoever to do these"},{"startTime":453.43899999999996,"endTime":457.11899999999997,"body":"things unless it's fair use. So"},{"startTime":457.12899999999996,"endTime":462.349,"body":"fair use becomes the exception"},{"startTime":457.12899999999996,"endTime":462.349,"body":"or defense. But that's tricky"},{"startTime":462.349,"endTime":467.38899999999995,"body":"and risky to rely on. Fair use"},{"startTime":462.349,"endTime":467.38899999999995,"body":"in the absence of some clear"},{"startTime":468.169,"endTime":468.679,"body":"guidance."},{"startTime":469.789,"endTime":474.49899999999997,"body":"So if I wanted to take a clip of"},{"startTime":469.789,"endTime":474.49899999999997,"body":"your podcast and use it in"},{"startTime":474.49899999999997,"endTime":478.69899999999996,"body":"Partners News Weekly, under fair"},{"startTime":474.49899999999997,"endTime":478.69899999999996,"body":"use, probably two or 3 minutes"},{"startTime":478.69899999999996,"endTime":483.88899999999995,"body":"would seem good. Right now. It"},{"startTime":478.69899999999996,"endTime":483.88899999999995,"body":"seems that that's okay. But if I"},{"startTime":483.88899999999995,"endTime":488.11899999999997,"body":"wanted to take the whole of your"},{"startTime":483.88899999999995,"endTime":488.11899999999997,"body":"podcast and call it podcast"},{"startTime":488.11899999999997,"endTime":493.219,"body":"weekly and well, say hi, welcome"},{"startTime":488.11899999999997,"endTime":493.219,"body":"to Pod News Weekly. And now for"},{"startTime":493.219,"endTime":497.029,"body":"an interview with Gordon, Mark"},{"startTime":493.219,"endTime":497.029,"body":"and his guest and then at the"},{"startTime":497.029,"endTime":499.909,"body":"end, go Well, thanks for"},{"startTime":497.029,"endTime":499.909,"body":"listening to News Weekly. Now"},{"startTime":499.909,"endTime":501.919,"body":"that clearly is not fair use,"},{"startTime":499.909,"endTime":501.919,"body":"right?"},{"startTime":502.81899999999996,"endTime":505.81899999999996,"body":"Well, right. And in fact, the"},{"startTime":502.81899999999996,"endTime":505.81899999999996,"body":"two or 3 minutes that you"},{"startTime":505.81899999999996,"endTime":508.81899999999996,"body":"referenced, again, no rule of"},{"startTime":505.81899999999996,"endTime":508.81899999999996,"body":"thumb, because if my podcast is"},{"startTime":508.81899999999996,"endTime":514.099,"body":"only 4 minutes long now, you've"},{"startTime":508.81899999999996,"endTime":514.099,"body":"taken 75% of it, Right? So now"},{"startTime":514.099,"endTime":517.039,"body":"again, but there are scenarios"},{"startTime":514.099,"endTime":517.039,"body":"where you could use the whole"},{"startTime":517.039,"endTime":520.669,"body":"thing and it would be fair use"},{"startTime":517.039,"endTime":520.669,"body":"because what you're doing is the"},{"startTime":520.669,"endTime":523.219,"body":"kind of thing that we as a"},{"startTime":520.669,"endTime":523.219,"body":"society value the social"},{"startTime":523.279,"endTime":527.149,"body":"commentary criticism, the"},{"startTime":523.279,"endTime":527.149,"body":"journalism that you guys do at"},{"startTime":527.149,"endTime":530.209,"body":"partners. But if it was a pure"},{"startTime":527.149,"endTime":530.209,"body":"entertainment podcast that did"},{"startTime":530.209,"endTime":534.049,"body":"the exact same clip, it might be"},{"startTime":530.209,"endTime":534.049,"body":"treated differently. So that's"},{"startTime":534.049,"endTime":538.159,"body":"why this is tricky and risky is"},{"startTime":534.049,"endTime":538.159,"body":"that each use has to be analyzed"},{"startTime":538.369,"endTime":542.7669999999999,"body":"standing on its own. And yeah,"},{"startTime":538.369,"endTime":542.7669999999999,"body":"it's just too complicated to"},{"startTime":542.7669999999999,"endTime":545.857,"body":"boil down to a single sentence"},{"startTime":542.7669999999999,"endTime":545.857,"body":"guideline. Okay."},{"startTime":546.247,"endTime":551.107,"body":"So first and foremost, although"},{"startTime":546.247,"endTime":551.107,"body":"every podcast is given by"},{"startTime":551.107,"endTime":556.507,"body":"default, a copyright should the"},{"startTime":551.107,"endTime":556.507,"body":"podcast implicitly have within"},{"startTime":556.507,"endTime":559.177,"body":"their RSS feed a copyright"},{"startTime":556.507,"endTime":559.177,"body":"notice?"},{"startTime":559.8969999999999,"endTime":563.347,"body":"It's a good idea. Implicitly,"},{"startTime":559.8969999999999,"endTime":563.347,"body":"actually, I would say explicitly"},{"startTime":563.347,"endTime":567.9549999999999,"body":"they should post a copyright"},{"startTime":563.347,"endTime":567.9549999999999,"body":"notice on on their websites on"},{"startTime":567.9549999999999,"endTime":571.675,"body":"the RSS feed. Ideally in the"},{"startTime":567.9549999999999,"endTime":571.675,"body":"audio or the video of the"},{"startTime":571.675,"endTime":575.545,"body":"program, although that is, I"},{"startTime":571.675,"endTime":575.545,"body":"would suggest that's a practice"},{"startTime":575.545,"endTime":580.1949999999999,"body":"that's observed in the breach"},{"startTime":575.545,"endTime":580.1949999999999,"body":"more often than adherence. But"},{"startTime":580.1949999999999,"endTime":583.4649999999999,"body":"yeah, I should say this episode"},{"startTime":580.1949999999999,"endTime":583.4649999999999,"body":"is copyrighted by so-and-so and"},{"startTime":583.4649999999999,"endTime":588.0749999999999,"body":"published in 1991, and I'm on it"},{"startTime":583.4649999999999,"endTime":588.0749999999999,"body":"in 2024, and I'm saying they."},{"startTime":588.355,"endTime":588.635,"body":"Don't."},{"startTime":589.9449999999999,"endTime":593.605,"body":"Anyway. Copyright 2024 by Gordon"},{"startTime":589.9449999999999,"endTime":593.605,"body":"Fire. Mark That's all you have"},{"startTime":593.605,"endTime":599.5749999999999,"body":"to sort of say. And that notice"},{"startTime":593.605,"endTime":599.5749999999999,"body":"it has small legal significance,"},{"startTime":599.5749999999999,"endTime":603.115,"body":"but it's just the the way that"},{"startTime":599.5749999999999,"endTime":603.115,"body":"people know who to reach out to"},{"startTime":603.115,"endTime":603.7149999999999,"body":"and find."},{"startTime":604.468,"endTime":609.7479999999999,"body":"Okay, should they also have a"},{"startTime":604.468,"endTime":609.7479999999999,"body":"podcast license then attached to"},{"startTime":609.7479999999999,"endTime":610.7379999999999,"body":"their RSS feed?"},{"startTime":611.732,"endTime":615.752,"body":"Well, I think that's a matter of"},{"startTime":611.732,"endTime":615.752,"body":"choice for a creator of any kind"},{"startTime":615.752,"endTime":617.822,"body":"of content, whether it's a"},{"startTime":615.752,"endTime":617.822,"body":"podcast or a song or a"},{"startTime":617.822,"endTime":622.172,"body":"photograph. If you're okay with"},{"startTime":617.822,"endTime":622.172,"body":"people using your content, you"},{"startTime":622.172,"endTime":626.762,"body":"can publish it under one of many"},{"startTime":622.172,"endTime":626.762,"body":"different kinds of licenses that"},{"startTime":626.762,"endTime":629.582,"body":"allow for use under certain"},{"startTime":626.762,"endTime":629.582,"body":"circumstances. That's what a"},{"startTime":629.582,"endTime":633.752,"body":"license is. It sets out the"},{"startTime":629.582,"endTime":633.752,"body":"conditions under which your work"},{"startTime":633.752,"endTime":637.5319999999999,"body":"could be used, by whom and so on."},{"startTime":633.752,"endTime":637.5319999999999,"body":"So there's the Creative Commons"},{"startTime":637.5319999999999,"endTime":641.012,"body":"license. There are a few other"},{"startTime":637.5319999999999,"endTime":641.012,"body":"model licenses out there, and a"},{"startTime":641.012,"endTime":646.442,"body":"podcast license is something"},{"startTime":641.012,"endTime":646.442,"body":"that we desperately need so that"},{"startTime":646.442,"endTime":651.6,"body":"podcasters can opt into using a"},{"startTime":646.442,"endTime":651.6,"body":"piece of music or something like"},{"startTime":651.6,"endTime":655.47,"body":"that in a way that isn't such an"},{"startTime":651.6,"endTime":655.47,"body":"administrative burden. I mean,"},{"startTime":655.89,"endTime":658.4399999999999,"body":"as a lawyer, one of the things"},{"startTime":655.89,"endTime":658.4399999999999,"body":"that people sometimes come to me"},{"startTime":658.4399999999999,"endTime":662.3299999999999,"body":"for is help me get a license to"},{"startTime":658.4399999999999,"endTime":662.3299999999999,"body":"use the first eight bars of AC"},{"startTime":662.3399999999999,"endTime":666.4499999999999,"body":"DC's Back in Black. That's the"},{"startTime":662.3399999999999,"endTime":666.4499999999999,"body":"classic, right. And I end up"},{"startTime":666.4499999999999,"endTime":669.15,"body":"having to go and reach out to a"},{"startTime":666.4499999999999,"endTime":669.15,"body":"publisher and a record company"},{"startTime":669.15,"endTime":672.36,"body":"and sometimes a performing"},{"startTime":669.15,"endTime":672.36,"body":"rights organization and ask for"},{"startTime":672.36,"endTime":674.49,"body":"permission that they have to go"},{"startTime":672.36,"endTime":674.49,"body":"to the owners. And it's this"},{"startTime":674.49,"endTime":677.9399999999999,"body":"whole complicated, time"},{"startTime":674.49,"endTime":677.9399999999999,"body":"consuming thing. And by then the"},{"startTime":677.9399999999999,"endTime":681.8399999999999,"body":"episodes already ready to go and"},{"startTime":677.9399999999999,"endTime":681.8399999999999,"body":"the podcaster moves on and uses"},{"startTime":681.8399999999999,"endTime":687.81,"body":"something else. So having a a"},{"startTime":681.8399999999999,"endTime":687.81,"body":"default or a standardized"},{"startTime":687.9,"endTime":689.79,"body":"podcast license makes a lot of"},{"startTime":687.9,"endTime":689.79,"body":"sense."},{"startTime":690.818,"endTime":694.148,"body":"Yeah, I've got a great story."},{"startTime":690.818,"endTime":694.148,"body":"Sting was on the Howard Stern"},{"startTime":694.148,"endTime":698.648,"body":"Show the other day and Howard"},{"startTime":694.148,"endTime":698.648,"body":"said, Is it true Kanye West pays"},{"startTime":698.648,"endTime":704.168,"body":"you $2,000 a day? And Sting said,"},{"startTime":698.648,"endTime":704.168,"body":"Yes, he pays me $2,000 a day."},{"startTime":704.168,"endTime":707.918,"body":"And he said, How come? He said,"},{"startTime":704.168,"endTime":707.918,"body":"Well, I was at an Elton John"},{"startTime":707.918,"endTime":712.328,"body":"party. And Elton John told me"},{"startTime":707.918,"endTime":712.328,"body":"that Kanye West had taken the"},{"startTime":712.328,"endTime":716.018,"body":"whole of the underlying track of"},{"startTime":712.328,"endTime":716.018,"body":"Want to Sting songs without"},{"startTime":716.018,"endTime":719.858,"body":"asking Sting. So Sting's lawyers"},{"startTime":716.018,"endTime":719.858,"body":"basically went in and got"},{"startTime":719.858,"endTime":725.168,"body":"millions from Kanye West. And"},{"startTime":719.858,"endTime":725.168,"body":"basically it's calculated out"},{"startTime":725.678,"endTime":730.448,"body":"for perpetuity $2,000 a day"},{"startTime":725.678,"endTime":730.448,"body":"because he never asked for a"},{"startTime":730.448,"endTime":731.828,"body":"license to use his music."},{"startTime":733.3109999999999,"endTime":736.371,"body":"Well, I mean, that is the power"},{"startTime":733.3109999999999,"endTime":736.371,"body":"of copyright law and the danger"},{"startTime":736.371,"endTime":738.411,"body":"of copyright law, frankly,"},{"startTime":736.371,"endTime":738.411,"body":"depending on which side you're"},{"startTime":738.411,"endTime":739.0409999999999,"body":"on. Yeah."},{"startTime":740.295,"endTime":744.405,"body":"Now, one of the things that"},{"startTime":740.295,"endTime":744.405,"body":"podcasting studio has been"},{"startTime":744.405,"endTime":748.995,"body":"working on is a piece of"},{"startTime":744.405,"endTime":748.995,"body":"technology to enable independent"},{"startTime":748.995,"endTime":754.305,"body":"music artists to be able to give"},{"startTime":748.995,"endTime":754.305,"body":"their music a license and to"},{"startTime":754.305,"endTime":758.655,"body":"allow that to be used within"},{"startTime":754.305,"endTime":758.655,"body":"another podcast. Now, Adam Curry,"},{"startTime":758.655,"endTime":763.4549999999999,"body":"the inventor of podcasting, was"},{"startTime":758.655,"endTime":763.4549999999999,"body":"famously an MTV jock, and he has"},{"startTime":763.4549999999999,"endTime":766.785,"body":"forever in a day 20 years"},{"startTime":763.4549999999999,"endTime":766.785,"body":"probably or more, been wanting"},{"startTime":766.785,"endTime":772.9649999999999,"body":"to create or recreate a music"},{"startTime":766.785,"endTime":772.9649999999999,"body":"show. And Spotify, in its wisdom,"},{"startTime":772.9649999999999,"endTime":775.8149999999999,"body":"has started to not pay"},{"startTime":772.9649999999999,"endTime":775.8149999999999,"body":"independent music artists"},{"startTime":775.8149999999999,"endTime":778.545,"body":"anything of any significance."},{"startTime":775.8149999999999,"endTime":778.545,"body":"And they're all looking around"},{"startTime":778.545,"endTime":782.685,"body":"and they all work. Tell you"},{"startTime":778.545,"endTime":782.685,"body":"about a year ago that actually"},{"startTime":782.685,"endTime":786.375,"body":"RSS is a great means for"},{"startTime":782.685,"endTime":786.375,"body":"distribution of music. Just as"},{"startTime":786.405,"endTime":789.735,"body":"is podcasts where you have cover"},{"startTime":786.405,"endTime":789.735,"body":"art. That's the music art, and"},{"startTime":789.735,"endTime":792.7049999999999,"body":"then where you have episodes,"},{"startTime":789.735,"endTime":792.7049999999999,"body":"you have singles that aggregate"},{"startTime":792.7049999999999,"endTime":797.2049999999999,"body":"into an album. So it all worked"},{"startTime":792.7049999999999,"endTime":797.2049999999999,"body":"out very well, but there was a"},{"startTime":797.2049999999999,"endTime":800.235,"body":"whole piece of technology"},{"startTime":797.2049999999999,"endTime":800.235,"body":"missing in, well, how do we"},{"startTime":800.235,"endTime":803.535,"body":"remunerate them? And so some"},{"startTime":800.235,"endTime":803.535,"body":"very clever people in the"},{"startTime":803.535,"endTime":807.345,"body":"podcasting tutor arena came up"},{"startTime":803.535,"endTime":807.345,"body":"with a technological wallet"},{"startTime":807.345,"endTime":810.375,"body":"switching and before we started"},{"startTime":807.345,"endTime":810.375,"body":"this podcast gave you a quick"},{"startTime":810.375,"endTime":814.035,"body":"view of it. And the idea is that"},{"startTime":810.375,"endTime":814.035,"body":"somebody is streaming"},{"startTime":814.035,"endTime":819.495,"body":"micropayments to a podcast and"},{"startTime":814.035,"endTime":819.495,"body":"then the wallet is taking that"},{"startTime":819.495,"endTime":822.495,"body":"from my wallet to Adam Curry's"},{"startTime":819.495,"endTime":822.495,"body":"wallet in this case as an"},{"startTime":822.495,"endTime":826.155,"body":"example. And then since he plays"},{"startTime":822.495,"endTime":826.155,"body":"the music, it goes from my"},{"startTime":826.155,"endTime":829.305,"body":"wallet to the music artist for"},{"startTime":826.155,"endTime":829.305,"body":"the duration of the track and"},{"startTime":829.305,"endTime":832.395,"body":"then switches back to Adam when"},{"startTime":829.305,"endTime":832.395,"body":"the track finishes. And that's a"},{"startTime":832.395,"endTime":836.4449999999999,"body":"lovely thing to do. And that"},{"startTime":832.395,"endTime":836.4449999999999,"body":"required a new podcast license"},{"startTime":836.4449999999999,"endTime":839.655,"body":"for music. And I think I sent"},{"startTime":836.4449999999999,"endTime":839.655,"body":"you that a little while back. I"},{"startTime":839.655,"endTime":843.525,"body":"mean, again, I'm not asking for"},{"startTime":839.655,"endTime":843.525,"body":"your legal final stamp of"},{"startTime":843.525,"endTime":846.915,"body":"approval on it, but again, I"},{"startTime":843.525,"endTime":846.915,"body":"think that's the sort of thing"},{"startTime":846.915,"endTime":849.915,"body":"that we need to see if we're"},{"startTime":846.915,"endTime":849.915,"body":"going to be able to use"},{"startTime":849.915,"endTime":853.785,"body":"independent music artists giving"},{"startTime":849.915,"endTime":853.785,"body":"permission not only copyright"},{"startTime":853.785,"endTime":855.345,"body":"but license to play."},{"startTime":856.895,"endTime":859.505,"body":"Agreed. And what you showed me,"},{"startTime":856.895,"endTime":859.505,"body":"it looks like a fantastic"},{"startTime":859.505,"endTime":862.595,"body":"approach to this. The key word"},{"startTime":859.505,"endTime":862.595,"body":"in what you just said was"},{"startTime":862.595,"endTime":866.9449999999999,"body":"independent music artists,"},{"startTime":862.595,"endTime":866.9449999999999,"body":"because it's going to take them"},{"startTime":866.975,"endTime":872.8249999999999,"body":"opting in to this kind of a"},{"startTime":866.975,"endTime":872.8249999999999,"body":"system to be willing to license"},{"startTime":873.095,"endTime":876.6949999999999,"body":"on terms that allow for this"},{"startTime":873.095,"endTime":876.6949999999999,"body":"micropayment wallet switching,"},{"startTime":876.8149999999999,"endTime":879.785,"body":"kind of revenue sharing kind of"},{"startTime":876.8149999999999,"endTime":879.785,"body":"thing. And I think it's a"},{"startTime":879.785,"endTime":885.095,"body":"wonderful idea if we can get"},{"startTime":879.785,"endTime":885.095,"body":"enough artists to opt in and we"},{"startTime":885.095,"endTime":889.568,"body":"can get enough listeners to opt"},{"startTime":885.095,"endTime":889.568,"body":"into paying through their wallet"},{"startTime":889.568,"endTime":894.398,"body":"to these podcast hosts, the real"},{"startTime":889.568,"endTime":894.398,"body":"challenge is that most creators"},{"startTime":894.398,"endTime":897.068,"body":"that want to use a piece of"},{"startTime":894.398,"endTime":897.068,"body":"music, they have a piece of"},{"startTime":897.068,"endTime":900.4879999999999,"body":"music in mind, and it's not that"},{"startTime":897.068,"endTime":900.4879999999999,"body":"little independent artist from"},{"startTime":900.4879999999999,"endTime":907.148,"body":"down the road. It's Madonna or"},{"startTime":900.4879999999999,"endTime":907.148,"body":"Kanye West, Sting And until the"},{"startTime":907.148,"endTime":909.908,"body":"big record labels and the big"},{"startTime":907.148,"endTime":909.908,"body":"music publishing companies that"},{"startTime":909.908,"endTime":912.728,"body":"really control the copyrights"},{"startTime":909.908,"endTime":912.728,"body":"and ownership of those things,"},{"startTime":913.358,"endTime":916.928,"body":"until those folks see the light"},{"startTime":913.358,"endTime":916.928,"body":"and opt in to something like"},{"startTime":916.928,"endTime":919.718,"body":"this, we're creating a separate"},{"startTime":916.928,"endTime":919.718,"body":"ecosystem for the independent"},{"startTime":919.928,"endTime":924.158,"body":"music world, which is fine and"},{"startTime":919.928,"endTime":924.158,"body":"it's a good idea. But the real"},{"startTime":924.158,"endTime":927.848,"body":"trick will be getting the uptake"},{"startTime":924.158,"endTime":927.848,"body":"on both sides of the payment"},{"startTime":927.848,"endTime":929.288,"body":"equation to opt in."},{"startTime":930.377,"endTime":933.677,"body":"Yeah, I mean, I used to own a"},{"startTime":930.377,"endTime":933.677,"body":"radio station and we had a"},{"startTime":933.677,"endTime":937.817,"body":"purist license, a performing"},{"startTime":933.677,"endTime":937.817,"body":"rights license. Of course, that"},{"startTime":937.817,"endTime":941.327,"body":"was great. When we went over to"},{"startTime":937.817,"endTime":941.327,"body":"eBay or we went over in the UK"},{"startTime":941.327,"endTime":945.137,"body":"geographic space, no problem."},{"startTime":941.327,"endTime":945.137,"body":"Broadcast where you have a"},{"startTime":945.137,"endTime":950.087,"body":"license, young sir. But as soon"},{"startTime":945.137,"endTime":950.087,"body":"as we stuck it onto Spotify or"},{"startTime":950.087,"endTime":954.077,"body":"Facebook as a podcast, down"},{"startTime":950.087,"endTime":954.077,"body":"would come the license police"},{"startTime":954.077,"endTime":957.707,"body":"and go, Wow, you can't have that."},{"startTime":954.077,"endTime":957.707,"body":"And there was no way to get a"},{"startTime":957.707,"endTime":962.837,"body":"global license of any sort for"},{"startTime":957.707,"endTime":962.837,"body":"us to do that. So we were always"},{"startTime":963.4069999999999,"endTime":968.177,"body":"having to remove it from a"},{"startTime":963.4069999999999,"endTime":968.177,"body":"outside UK sphere. And even in"},{"startTime":968.177,"endTime":971.987,"body":"the UK Facebook like now you"},{"startTime":968.177,"endTime":971.987,"body":"can't buy anything. Sony BMG are"},{"startTime":971.987,"endTime":976.7869999999999,"body":"coming after you. Is there ever"},{"startTime":971.987,"endTime":976.7869999999999,"body":"a scenario you can see where"},{"startTime":976.967,"endTime":982.337,"body":"those licenses that you buy will"},{"startTime":976.967,"endTime":982.337,"body":"also cover web distribution so"},{"startTime":982.337,"endTime":984.707,"body":"that we don't have to use"},{"startTime":982.337,"endTime":984.707,"body":"independent music, but we could"},{"startTime":984.707,"endTime":986.837,"body":"use Sting and AC?"},{"startTime":986.837,"endTime":991.607,"body":"DC Well, right now the only"},{"startTime":986.837,"endTime":991.607,"body":"approach is the one I described"},{"startTime":991.607,"endTime":994.697,"body":"where you literally contacting"},{"startTime":991.607,"endTime":994.697,"body":"all of the copyright holders and"},{"startTime":994.697,"endTime":998.477,"body":"negotiating terms of a license"},{"startTime":994.697,"endTime":998.477,"body":"agreement. Now the trouble is"},{"startTime":999.047,"endTime":1001.807,"body":"and the reason it's it's a"},{"startTime":999.047,"endTime":1001.807,"body":"challenge internationally is"},{"startTime":1001.807,"endTime":1004.837,"body":"that some of these copyright"},{"startTime":1001.807,"endTime":1004.837,"body":"holders only hold the copyright"},{"startTime":1004.837,"endTime":1008.437,"body":"for the particular territory"},{"startTime":1004.837,"endTime":1008.437,"body":"that they're in. So then you"},{"startTime":1008.437,"endTime":1012.1569999999999,"body":"then have to essentially"},{"startTime":1008.437,"endTime":1012.1569999999999,"body":"navigate the worldwide"},{"startTime":1012.6999999999999,"endTime":1016.72,"body":"publishing for these things. And"},{"startTime":1012.6999999999999,"endTime":1016.72,"body":"so honestly, if I'm dealing with"},{"startTime":1016.72,"endTime":1020.35,"body":"Warner Music, Warner Chappell"},{"startTime":1016.72,"endTime":1020.35,"body":"music here in the U.S., they've"},{"startTime":1020.35,"endTime":1023.98,"body":"got divisions in other countries"},{"startTime":1020.35,"endTime":1023.98,"body":"and they've internally sort of"},{"startTime":1023.98,"endTime":1028.24,"body":"agreed not to step on each"},{"startTime":1023.98,"endTime":1028.24,"body":"other's toes. So and let's face"},{"startTime":1028.24,"endTime":1031.48,"body":"it, there are people whose jobs"},{"startTime":1028.24,"endTime":1031.48,"body":"sort of depend on them having a"},{"startTime":1031.48,"endTime":1034.1200000000001,"body":"sphere of influence. So it's"},{"startTime":1031.48,"endTime":1034.1200000000001,"body":"going to be hard to get all of"},{"startTime":1034.1200000000001,"endTime":1036.97,"body":"those folks to agree. I will do"},{"startTime":1034.1200000000001,"endTime":1036.97,"body":"it on these terms or these"},{"startTime":1036.97,"endTime":1039.6399999999999,"body":"circumstances. And sometimes the"},{"startTime":1036.97,"endTime":1039.6399999999999,"body":"artists have something to say"},{"startTime":1039.6399999999999,"endTime":1042.67,"body":"about it. Well, I don't like the"},{"startTime":1039.6399999999999,"endTime":1042.67,"body":"government of this country, so"},{"startTime":1042.67,"endTime":1045.28,"body":"we're not letting my music be"},{"startTime":1042.67,"endTime":1045.28,"body":"used there and all those kinds"},{"startTime":1045.28,"endTime":1049.97,"body":"of crazy things. But"},{"startTime":1045.28,"endTime":1049.97,"body":"theoretically, it's possible to"},{"startTime":1049.97,"endTime":1053.27,"body":"negotiate an international,"},{"startTime":1049.97,"endTime":1053.27,"body":"worldwide license, all media,"},{"startTime":1053.27,"endTime":1056.06,"body":"all rights, so on. And in fact,"},{"startTime":1053.27,"endTime":1056.06,"body":"that's what we often do when"},{"startTime":1056.06,"endTime":1058.7,"body":"we're negotiating to release a"},{"startTime":1056.06,"endTime":1058.7,"body":"film. For example, I want to use"},{"startTime":1058.7,"endTime":1063.77,"body":"a piece of music and film it. It"},{"startTime":1058.7,"endTime":1063.77,"body":"would be untenable to say, but"},{"startTime":1063.77,"endTime":1066.98,"body":"you have to go negotiate with"},{"startTime":1063.77,"endTime":1066.98,"body":"the owners in Belgium and"},{"startTime":1067.19,"endTime":1070.34,"body":"Morocco and one country at a"},{"startTime":1067.19,"endTime":1070.34,"body":"time. So we do negotiate."},{"startTime":1071.01,"endTime":1074.28,"body":"Actually, oftentimes we lawyers"},{"startTime":1071.01,"endTime":1074.28,"body":"will use terms like throughout"},{"startTime":1074.28,"endTime":1078.09,"body":"the known universe in perpetuity."},{"startTime":1074.28,"endTime":1078.09,"body":"Let's try to be as broad. What"},{"startTime":1078.09,"endTime":1079.71,"body":"about other planes of existence,"},{"startTime":1078.09,"endTime":1079.71,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1080.1299999999999,"endTime":1085.17,"body":"Yes. Okay. Now, one of the other"},{"startTime":1080.1299999999999,"endTime":1085.17,"body":"things I'm very keen to try and"},{"startTime":1085.17,"endTime":1089.28,"body":"do and going back to fair use"},{"startTime":1085.17,"endTime":1089.28,"body":"and going back to clipping other"},{"startTime":1089.28,"endTime":1093.81,"body":"people's content, I've developed"},{"startTime":1089.28,"endTime":1093.81,"body":"a piece of technology and it's"},{"startTime":1093.81,"endTime":1096.69,"body":"very embryonic right now. And"},{"startTime":1093.81,"endTime":1096.69,"body":"again, I showed you it briefly,"},{"startTime":1097.1399999999999,"endTime":1101.76,"body":"which is the idea of creating"},{"startTime":1097.1399999999999,"endTime":1101.76,"body":"clips within the app platform"},{"startTime":1102.54,"endTime":1106.53,"body":"and then allowing those to be"},{"startTime":1102.54,"endTime":1106.53,"body":"used in the same wallet,"},{"startTime":1106.53,"endTime":1111.99,"body":"switching technology in place of"},{"startTime":1106.53,"endTime":1111.99,"body":"music. So I might have a podcast"},{"startTime":1111.99,"endTime":1115.02,"body":"with James put his weekly and"},{"startTime":1111.99,"endTime":1115.02,"body":"we've heard a great interview"},{"startTime":1115.02,"endTime":1117.3,"body":"that you've just done and we"},{"startTime":1115.02,"endTime":1117.3,"body":"want to clip that whole"},{"startTime":1117.3,"endTime":1122.1299999999999,"body":"interview into our show. Now,"},{"startTime":1117.3,"endTime":1122.1299999999999,"body":"today we might just be polite"},{"startTime":1122.1299999999999,"endTime":1125.1,"body":"and say, Hey, Gordon, by the way,"},{"startTime":1122.1299999999999,"endTime":1125.1,"body":"we're just going to use you mind."},{"startTime":1125.1,"endTime":1127.77,"body":"And you might go, Yeah, I'm"},{"startTime":1125.1,"endTime":1127.77,"body":"happy to do that. Oh, no. But if"},{"startTime":1127.77,"endTime":1130.86,"body":"we had to do that thousands and"},{"startTime":1127.77,"endTime":1130.86,"body":"thousands of times, that could"},{"startTime":1130.95,"endTime":1135.24,"body":"become very laborious. So having"},{"startTime":1130.95,"endTime":1135.24,"body":"a podcast license where you say,"},{"startTime":1135.24,"endTime":1139.77,"body":"Yep, I'm happy with my podcast"},{"startTime":1135.24,"endTime":1139.77,"body":"to have content reused for"},{"startTime":1139.77,"endTime":1144.09,"body":"non-commercial use, or I'm happy"},{"startTime":1139.77,"endTime":1144.09,"body":"for commercial use or shared"},{"startTime":1144.09,"endTime":1147.87,"body":"attribution or whatever it may"},{"startTime":1144.09,"endTime":1147.87,"body":"be. Yeah, that's fine. So then"},{"startTime":1147.87,"endTime":1150.96,"body":"we could see what your license"},{"startTime":1147.87,"endTime":1150.96,"body":"is. We could take the interview"},{"startTime":1150.96,"endTime":1155.37,"body":"and reuse and pay you"},{"startTime":1150.96,"endTime":1155.37,"body":"micropayments from the listener"},{"startTime":1155.6399999999999,"endTime":1160.41,"body":"for reusing your clips. He might"},{"startTime":1155.6399999999999,"endTime":1160.41,"body":"get 90% of all the micropayments"},{"startTime":1160.41,"endTime":1163.86,"body":"that we're receiving. We might"},{"startTime":1160.41,"endTime":1163.86,"body":"keep 10%. That's the model I'm"},{"startTime":1163.86,"endTime":1168.1499999999999,"body":"working to which would replace,"},{"startTime":1163.86,"endTime":1168.1499999999999,"body":"I guess, fair use with a proper"},{"startTime":1168.1499999999999,"endTime":1171.12,"body":"monetization model. And yeah."},{"startTime":1171.45,"endTime":1174.1499999999999,"body":"Yeah, I don't know that it needs"},{"startTime":1171.45,"endTime":1174.1499999999999,"body":"to replace fair use. I mean,"},{"startTime":1174.1499999999999,"endTime":1179.46,"body":"fair use is still a you know, if"},{"startTime":1174.1499999999999,"endTime":1179.46,"body":"you have a genuine fair use, you"},{"startTime":1179.46,"endTime":1181.98,"body":"don't have to get a license."},{"startTime":1179.46,"endTime":1181.98,"body":"That's the purpose of this"},{"startTime":1182.25,"endTime":1188.16,"body":"exception or defense. But it"},{"startTime":1182.25,"endTime":1188.16,"body":"would create a system where"},{"startTime":1188.95,"endTime":1192.31,"body":"response people, creators who"},{"startTime":1188.95,"endTime":1192.31,"body":"want to do right by the owners"},{"startTime":1192.31,"endTime":1196.12,"body":"of content could certainly do so"},{"startTime":1192.31,"endTime":1196.12,"body":"even. Yes, I know it's fair use,"},{"startTime":1196.12,"endTime":1199.1499999999999,"body":"but I'd like to pay you right."},{"startTime":1196.12,"endTime":1199.1499999999999,"body":"That's one scenario. And the"},{"startTime":1199.1499999999999,"endTime":1203.56,"body":"other is maybe it's not fair use."},{"startTime":1199.1499999999999,"endTime":1203.56,"body":"So I know I need to pay. So"},{"startTime":1203.56,"endTime":1206.77,"body":"let's get it signed up this way."},{"startTime":1203.56,"endTime":1206.77,"body":"Yeah, I think it's a great idea"},{"startTime":1206.77,"endTime":1210.61,"body":"and I don't think that Fair Use"},{"startTime":1206.77,"endTime":1210.61,"body":"and the podcast license need to"},{"startTime":1210.61,"endTime":1217.81,"body":"exist separately as either they"},{"startTime":1210.61,"endTime":1217.81,"body":"can coexist. And will we Lawyers"},{"startTime":1217.81,"endTime":1220.29,"body":"like the idea that we will"},{"startTime":1217.81,"endTime":1220.29,"body":"always have this question of is"},{"startTime":1220.3,"endTime":1222.49,"body":"that fair use because it gives"},{"startTime":1220.3,"endTime":1222.49,"body":"us something to do."},{"startTime":1224.44,"endTime":1229.01,"body":"So let's go back full circle. We"},{"startTime":1224.44,"endTime":1229.01,"body":"talked about the Microsoft CEO"},{"startTime":1229.03,"endTime":1232.03,"body":"saying that everything on the"},{"startTime":1229.03,"endTime":1232.03,"body":"Internet is fair use. Yeah, you"},{"startTime":1232.03,"endTime":1237.04,"body":"must now have a lot of people"},{"startTime":1232.03,"endTime":1237.04,"body":"coming to you saying, Gord, how"},{"startTime":1237.04,"endTime":1242.59,"body":"can I protect my podcast from"},{"startTime":1237.04,"endTime":1242.59,"body":"Microsoft or Openai or Google"},{"startTime":1243.1,"endTime":1247.42,"body":"coming to use my content as a"},{"startTime":1243.1,"endTime":1247.42,"body":"training piece of audio? Yeah."},{"startTime":1247.45,"endTime":1252.23,"body":"So are you moving into that"},{"startTime":1247.45,"endTime":1252.23,"body":"sphere of advice now where"},{"startTime":1252.23,"endTime":1254.66,"body":"you're telling people what they"},{"startTime":1252.23,"endTime":1254.66,"body":"could do, what their rights are,"},{"startTime":1254.66,"endTime":1256.1,"body":"I guess? Well."},{"startTime":1256.76,"endTime":1260.45,"body":"Yes and no. My thinking is that"},{"startTime":1256.76,"endTime":1260.45,"body":"because of the way copyright law"},{"startTime":1260.45,"endTime":1262.52,"body":"works, it's it's exclusive,"},{"startTime":1260.45,"endTime":1262.52,"body":"right? That belongs to the"},{"startTime":1262.52,"endTime":1266.8999999999999,"body":"author. We don't have to take"},{"startTime":1262.52,"endTime":1266.8999999999999,"body":"any affirmative step to to"},{"startTime":1266.8999999999999,"endTime":1270.86,"body":"protect against these things."},{"startTime":1266.8999999999999,"endTime":1270.86,"body":"It's incumbent on the users to"},{"startTime":1270.86,"endTime":1274.3999999999999,"body":"come and ask for the permission."},{"startTime":1270.86,"endTime":1274.3999999999999,"body":"If we don't have a publicly"},{"startTime":1274.3999999999999,"endTime":1277.8799999999999,"body":"available license that's out"},{"startTime":1274.3999999999999,"endTime":1277.8799999999999,"body":"there for people to look at."},{"startTime":1278.6,"endTime":1281.57,"body":"That said, I think there are a"},{"startTime":1278.6,"endTime":1281.57,"body":"number of technological"},{"startTime":1281.57,"endTime":1284.93,"body":"solutions that should be"},{"startTime":1281.57,"endTime":1284.93,"body":"implemented. Some have been"},{"startTime":1284.93,"endTime":1288.68,"body":"invented and some haven't yet,"},{"startTime":1284.93,"endTime":1288.68,"body":"but one of them is as simple as"},{"startTime":1288.68,"endTime":1293.84,"body":"the robots.txt text file that is"},{"startTime":1288.68,"endTime":1293.84,"body":"on your web server that says to"},{"startTime":1293.84,"endTime":1298.31,"body":"the crawlers of the world, don't"},{"startTime":1293.84,"endTime":1298.31,"body":"index this page, don't look at"},{"startTime":1298.31,"endTime":1302.91,"body":"this or don't access this page."},{"startTime":1298.31,"endTime":1302.91,"body":"The trouble is, that's that"},{"startTime":1302.91,"endTime":1307.08,"body":"social contract that he's"},{"startTime":1302.91,"endTime":1307.08,"body":"talking about and it only works"},{"startTime":1307.08,"endTime":1310.95,"body":"if people adhere to the protocol."},{"startTime":1307.08,"endTime":1310.95,"body":"And there's no law that says you"},{"startTime":1310.95,"endTime":1315.1,"body":"must follow robots text"},{"startTime":1310.95,"endTime":1315.1,"body":"instructions. So that's one I"},{"startTime":1315.1,"endTime":1318.55,"body":"think that some other"},{"startTime":1315.1,"endTime":1318.55,"body":"technological models will be"},{"startTime":1318.55,"endTime":1323.47,"body":"coming very shortly that allow"},{"startTime":1318.55,"endTime":1323.47,"body":"you to turn on don't use this to"},{"startTime":1323.47,"endTime":1328.75,"body":"train a AI flag, for example, or"},{"startTime":1323.47,"endTime":1328.75,"body":"a no copying flag. Shouldn't"},{"startTime":1328.75,"endTime":1332.59,"body":"have to do that. No copying is"},{"startTime":1328.75,"endTime":1332.59,"body":"the rule. But there it is. It"},{"startTime":1332.59,"endTime":1335.97,"body":"wouldn't hurt, I think, to just"},{"startTime":1332.59,"endTime":1335.97,"body":"put on your website header or"},{"startTime":1335.98,"endTime":1339.61,"body":"footer or somewhere. This"},{"startTime":1335.98,"endTime":1339.61,"body":"content is protected. All rights"},{"startTime":1339.61,"endTime":1343.78,"body":"reserved. Not available for AI."},{"startTime":1339.61,"endTime":1343.78,"body":"At least you can say you warned"},{"startTime":1343.78,"endTime":1347.29,"body":"them. Whether that has any legal"},{"startTime":1343.78,"endTime":1347.29,"body":"effect is hard to say. And"},{"startTime":1347.35,"endTime":1350.86,"body":"there's countless lost. I think"},{"startTime":1347.35,"endTime":1350.86,"body":"it's about 40 lawsuits going on"},{"startTime":1350.86,"endTime":1354.37,"body":"against the AI companies"},{"startTime":1350.86,"endTime":1354.37,"body":"currently that are asking this"},{"startTime":1354.37,"endTime":1357.73,"body":"question. Is it fair use or not?"},{"startTime":1354.37,"endTime":1357.73,"body":"When we use this stuff to train?"},{"startTime":1357.73,"endTime":1360.8799999999999,"body":"Because the AI companies take"},{"startTime":1357.73,"endTime":1360.8799999999999,"body":"the view that this is not"},{"startTime":1360.8799999999999,"endTime":1364.78,"body":"copying, all we're doing is"},{"startTime":1360.8799999999999,"endTime":1364.78,"body":"really just consuming. It wants"},{"startTime":1364.78,"endTime":1370.0,"body":"to learn, but I think a lot of"},{"startTime":1364.78,"endTime":1370.0,"body":"that depends on how the AI"},{"startTime":1370.0,"endTime":1374.32,"body":"training technology really works"},{"startTime":1370.0,"endTime":1374.32,"body":"and maybe a little adjustment of"},{"startTime":1374.32,"endTime":1377.05,"body":"the definition of what's a copy,"},{"startTime":1374.32,"endTime":1377.05,"body":"what's a performance, those"},{"startTime":1377.05,"endTime":1377.68,"body":"kinds of things."},{"startTime":1378.76,"endTime":1382.93,"body":"So last couple of questions. And"},{"startTime":1378.76,"endTime":1382.93,"body":"so in terms of blocking the bots"},{"startTime":1382.93,"endTime":1385.93,"body":"with robot text, I think today"},{"startTime":1382.93,"endTime":1385.93,"body":"Cloudflare just announced that"},{"startTime":1385.93,"endTime":1391.09,"body":"they for free are allowing any"},{"startTime":1385.93,"endTime":1391.09,"body":"Cloudflare clients to turn on a"},{"startTime":1391.09,"endTime":1394.87,"body":"block, a bot capability. So I'm"},{"startTime":1391.09,"endTime":1394.87,"body":"going to try that later and see"},{"startTime":1394.87,"endTime":1398.1,"body":"what happens. But one of the"},{"startTime":1394.87,"endTime":1398.1,"body":"other areas that we're now"},{"startTime":1398.1,"endTime":1403.73,"body":"seeing new companies taking text"},{"startTime":1398.1,"endTime":1403.73,"body":"from companies, so sources of"},{"startTime":1403.73,"endTime":1409.22,"body":"websites and turning those into"},{"startTime":1403.73,"endTime":1409.22,"body":"podcasts and putting A.I. voices"},{"startTime":1409.23,"endTime":1414.54,"body":"with them. So two parts."},{"startTime":1409.23,"endTime":1414.54,"body":"Question one, do we have to ask"},{"startTime":1414.54,"endTime":1417.56,"body":"permission? So let's say I"},{"startTime":1414.54,"endTime":1417.56,"body":"wanted to go to TechCrunch and"},{"startTime":1417.57,"endTime":1421.02,"body":"Engadget and The Verge, and I"},{"startTime":1417.57,"endTime":1421.02,"body":"wanted to say give me everything"},{"startTime":1421.01,"endTime":1424.86,"body":"about Google, right? And then"},{"startTime":1421.01,"endTime":1424.86,"body":"the AI finds everything about"},{"startTime":1424.86,"endTime":1428.82,"body":"Google and then turns into a"},{"startTime":1424.86,"endTime":1428.82,"body":"podcast for me with some clever"},{"startTime":1429.02,"endTime":1433.04,"body":"AI voices available and even"},{"startTime":1429.02,"endTime":1433.04,"body":"maybe transcribes it to multiple"},{"startTime":1433.05,"endTime":1437.6499999999999,"body":"languages because that's easy to"},{"startTime":1433.05,"endTime":1437.6499999999999,"body":"do. Now, where's the legal"},{"startTime":1437.86,"endTime":1440.86,"body":"precedent? I clearly shouldn't"},{"startTime":1437.86,"endTime":1440.86,"body":"be allowed to take that original"},{"startTime":1440.86,"endTime":1441.73,"body":"content, should I?"},{"startTime":1442.87,"endTime":1445.78,"body":"That's my view, yes. I mean,"},{"startTime":1442.87,"endTime":1445.78,"body":"there is some case law that"},{"startTime":1445.78,"endTime":1450.37,"body":"suggests that capturing bits of"},{"startTime":1445.78,"endTime":1450.37,"body":"information from sources on the"},{"startTime":1450.37,"endTime":1454.21,"body":"web may be that fair use, that"},{"startTime":1450.37,"endTime":1454.21,"body":"we talk about it maybe"},{"startTime":1454.42,"endTime":1457.84,"body":"permissible just sort of under a"},{"startTime":1454.42,"endTime":1457.84,"body":"sort of a social contract, kind"},{"startTime":1457.84,"endTime":1461.95,"body":"of a principle. But if that"},{"startTime":1457.84,"endTime":1461.95,"body":"resulting podcast that you"},{"startTime":1461.95,"endTime":1466.18,"body":"described is published, you have"},{"startTime":1461.95,"endTime":1466.18,"body":"now used the AI technology to"},{"startTime":1466.18,"endTime":1471.77,"body":"create a new work, a derivative"},{"startTime":1466.18,"endTime":1471.77,"body":"work based on those other things"},{"startTime":1471.77,"endTime":1474.74,"body":"that you've incorporated. And"},{"startTime":1471.77,"endTime":1474.74,"body":"that's again, the exclusive"},{"startTime":1474.74,"endTime":1479.1499999999999,"body":"purview of a copyright owner. So"},{"startTime":1474.74,"endTime":1479.1499999999999,"body":"it should be prevented. Well, it"},{"startTime":1479.1499999999999,"endTime":1481.52,"body":"is prevented by the law and"},{"startTime":1479.1499999999999,"endTime":1481.52,"body":"should be prevented by"},{"startTime":1481.52,"endTime":1484.79,"body":"technology as well. And yeah,"},{"startTime":1481.52,"endTime":1484.79,"body":"unfortunately, that I mean, I"},{"startTime":1484.79,"endTime":1487.3999999999999,"body":"love the idea of that. I love"},{"startTime":1484.79,"endTime":1487.3999999999999,"body":"being able to just do it for my"},{"startTime":1487.3999999999999,"endTime":1491.3,"body":"own consumption. Here are the"},{"startTime":1487.3999999999999,"endTime":1491.3,"body":"five websites I read each day."},{"startTime":1491.75,"endTime":1494.51,"body":"Give me a morning summary or"},{"startTime":1491.75,"endTime":1494.51,"body":"something like that. That's"},{"startTime":1494.51,"endTime":1498.1399999999999,"body":"great because it's just me and"},{"startTime":1494.51,"endTime":1498.1399999999999,"body":"technically it's probably still"},{"startTime":1498.1399999999999,"endTime":1502.49,"body":"an infringement, but I'm one"},{"startTime":1498.1399999999999,"endTime":1502.49,"body":"consumer. There's no real harm."},{"startTime":1503.06,"endTime":1506.27,"body":"As soon as it becomes more"},{"startTime":1503.06,"endTime":1506.27,"body":"widely public, that is a harm."},{"startTime":1506.27,"endTime":1509.09,"body":"And if you get millions of"},{"startTime":1506.27,"endTime":1509.09,"body":"consumers doing the same thing"},{"startTime":1509.6299999999999,"endTime":1514.1299999999999,"body":"where we're taking away the ad"},{"startTime":1509.6299999999999,"endTime":1514.1299999999999,"body":"views on those websites. So"},{"startTime":1514.58,"endTime":1517.19,"body":"that's the last question."},{"startTime":1517.7,"endTime":1525.28,"body":"If the audio content is created"},{"startTime":1517.7,"endTime":1525.28,"body":"using A.I., should we legally be"},{"startTime":1525.27,"endTime":1529.33,"body":"bound to flag it as A.I. so that"},{"startTime":1525.27,"endTime":1529.33,"body":"we're not"},{"startTime":1530.5,"endTime":1534.8799999999999,"body":"misconstruing or creating false"},{"startTime":1530.5,"endTime":1534.8799999999999,"body":"flags to listeners who might not"},{"startTime":1534.8799999999999,"endTime":1538.42,"body":"be able to tell the difference"},{"startTime":1534.8799999999999,"endTime":1538.42,"body":"between content that is human"},{"startTime":1538.42,"endTime":1540.85,"body":"generated and content that is"},{"startTime":1538.42,"endTime":1540.85,"body":"air generated?"},{"startTime":1541.47,"endTime":1546.75,"body":"That is a great question, and I"},{"startTime":1541.47,"endTime":1546.75,"body":"think morally the answer is yes."},{"startTime":1546.75,"endTime":1549.78,"body":"I think we owe it to our"},{"startTime":1546.75,"endTime":1549.78,"body":"audiences to be transparent"},{"startTime":1549.78,"endTime":1552.72,"body":"about what they're hearing, what"},{"startTime":1549.78,"endTime":1552.72,"body":"they're consuming, where it's"},{"startTime":1552.72,"endTime":1556.23,"body":"coming from. Full context. If we"},{"startTime":1552.72,"endTime":1556.23,"body":"were selling a product using"},{"startTime":1556.23,"endTime":1559.86,"body":"A.I. generated stuff, we would"},{"startTime":1556.23,"endTime":1559.86,"body":"have here in the U.S. it's the"},{"startTime":1559.86,"endTime":1563.22,"body":"FTC. I forget the name of the"},{"startTime":1559.86,"endTime":1563.22,"body":"agency in the UK, but all over"},{"startTime":1563.22,"endTime":1567.18,"body":"the world there are regulations"},{"startTime":1563.22,"endTime":1567.18,"body":"requiring transparency and that"},{"startTime":1567.18,"endTime":1571.8899999999999,"body":"you not mislead your audience."},{"startTime":1567.18,"endTime":1571.8899999999999,"body":"Now, is this a real voice or a"},{"startTime":1571.8899999999999,"endTime":1574.68,"body":"human voice or a generated"},{"startTime":1571.8899999999999,"endTime":1574.68,"body":"computer voice? I don't know"},{"startTime":1574.77,"endTime":1577.83,"body":"whether that's misleading or not,"},{"startTime":1574.77,"endTime":1577.83,"body":"but that's the basic rule. We"},{"startTime":1577.84,"endTime":1581.05,"body":"need to give some disclosures"},{"startTime":1577.84,"endTime":1581.05,"body":"and honestly, I think it's just"},{"startTime":1581.05,"endTime":1584.49,"body":"the right thing to do from a"},{"startTime":1581.05,"endTime":1584.49,"body":"legal standpoint. Maybe there's"},{"startTime":1584.49,"endTime":1585.82,"body":"a little wiggle room on that."},{"startTime":1586.87,"endTime":1591.25,"body":"Okay. So in summary, yes, you"},{"startTime":1586.87,"endTime":1591.25,"body":"have copyright. You should have"},{"startTime":1591.24,"endTime":1596.1299999999999,"body":"a podcast license. Really fair"},{"startTime":1591.24,"endTime":1596.1299999999999,"body":"use is fair use. No, Microsoft,"},{"startTime":1596.1399999999999,"endTime":1600.21,"body":"you can't scrape the whole web"},{"startTime":1596.1399999999999,"endTime":1600.21,"body":"for your trading. And we should"},{"startTime":1600.21,"endTime":1603.16,"body":"be transparent in our labeling."},{"startTime":1600.21,"endTime":1603.16,"body":"That's a good summary."},{"startTime":1603.66,"endTime":1608.6399999999999,"body":"I'd say. So yeah. On the podcast"},{"startTime":1603.66,"endTime":1608.6399999999999,"body":"license, my one caveat would be"},{"startTime":1608.6499999999999,"endTime":1611.79,"body":"if you want to, if you don't"},{"startTime":1608.6499999999999,"endTime":1611.79,"body":"want anybody to use your stuff,"},{"startTime":1611.8,"endTime":1613.0,"body":"then don't put a license."},{"startTime":1613.7839999999999,"endTime":1616.7839999999999,"body":"Gordon Fire Mark the podcast"},{"startTime":1613.7839999999999,"endTime":1616.7839999999999,"body":"Lawyer Thank you so much. Now if"},{"startTime":1616.7839999999999,"endTime":1619.064,"body":"people want to find you, where"},{"startTime":1616.7839999999999,"endTime":1619.064,"body":"would they go?"},{"startTime":1619.634,"endTime":1622.514,"body":"Well, Sam, I'm blessed with a"},{"startTime":1619.634,"endTime":1622.514,"body":"memorable name that's easy to"},{"startTime":1622.514,"endTime":1625.424,"body":"find, and there are too many of"},{"startTime":1622.514,"endTime":1625.424,"body":"us out there. So Gordon Fire"},{"startTime":1625.424,"endTime":1630.374,"body":"Markham is probably the hub of"},{"startTime":1625.424,"endTime":1630.374,"body":"things or just fire Markham for"},{"startTime":1630.374,"endTime":1633.374,"body":"the law firm. And you can find"},{"startTime":1630.374,"endTime":1633.374,"body":"me on YouTube. And most of the"},{"startTime":1633.374,"endTime":1636.0439999999999,"body":"social media channels. Gee, Fire"},{"startTime":1633.374,"endTime":1636.0439999999999,"body":"Mark is the handle."},{"startTime":1636.0439999999999,"endTime":1638.504,"body":"They're amazing. Thanks, Gordon."},{"startTime":1639.104,"endTime":1640.154,"body":"Thank you. It's been great."}]}