Small Business Rundown
Small Business Rundown
Ep. 90: An Inside Look at NFIB’s D.C. Fly-In
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NFIB's annual Fly-In connects small business owners with lawmakers from their states to build relationships and make members of Congress aware of the top issues facing small businesses. Elizabeth Parks, NFIB's Vice President of Federal Government Relations and Grassroots, led a panel discussion featuring NFIB members and small business owners Michael Ervin and Clara Osterhage. The discussion explores how credit card swipe fees and Beneficial Ownership Information reporting are top concerns for their businesses. They also discusses their experience with NFIB's Fly-In event and how meeting with lawmakers helps shape future policies.
Amplify the voices of the NFIB members who met with Congress and take action:
Learn more:
- Small Business Owners Converge on Capitol Hill for NFIB Fly-In
- Small Business Owners Bring Viewpoint to Capitol Hill
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I'm paying upwards of $700,000 a year in credit card fees. And what's fascinating, I mean, for me, that's being able to open a few more salons. And of course, the most important thing to reinvest in is my human capital, my people. And so to be able to develop stronger compensation plans, stronger benefit plans, I mean, that money would be very helpful. It's a ton of money for the privilege of swiping.
SPEAKER_01The Small Business Rundown is the official podcast of the National Federation of Independent Business, the member-driven voice of small business. Every two weeks, a new episode offers resources for small business owners and information on relevant laws and regulations. NFIB and our members advocate to keep U.S. small businesses strong and independent in Washington, D.C., all 50 states, and the nation's courts.
SPEAKER_02Every year, small business owners come from across the country to attend NFIB's Washington, D.C. fly. This event is an opportunity for them to connect with each other and meet members of Congress to talk about issues affecting their day-to-day business operations. This year, the first day included sessions on the economic and political climate from SBA administrator Kelly Lawler, U.S. Senator Roger Marshall, and U.S. Representatives Mark Mesmer and Brad Finson. NFIB members then spent the full day attending dozens of meetings on Capitol Hill. During one panel discussion to prepare for those meetings, small business owners Michael Irvin and Clara Osterhage took the stage with NFIB's Vice President of Grassroots, Elizabeth Parks, to share best practices for authentic and effective meetings. Today's podcast is a live recording from that panel discussion editor for length. It offers an inside look at why NFIB members take time away from their businesses to participate in the NFIB client.
SPEAKER_03I'm Elizabeth Parks, NFIB's Vice President of Grassroots, and I'm privileged to lead a conversation today with Clara Osterhage and Michael Irvin as we prepare for Hill meetings where you will share your story and have the opportunity to influence your lawmakers. So to jump right in, let's introduce yourselves. Michael, Clara, if you'd tell us more about who you are, where you're from, if this is your first fly-in.
SPEAKER_04Well, my name is Michael Irvin. I'm from St. Albans, West Virginia. Back in 2017, when the uh Tax Cuts and Jobs Act came into being, I got the bug to start my own business. So my wife and I started Coal River Coffee Company and uh started off as a small batch roastery in our garage. And uh so then we opened our first main location a little bit later in 2018, and uh it just kind of expanded, and we both work in it now, and uh we ended up also starting a property uh restoration investment company. So now we get to have several businesses and several uh business owners, entrepreneurs just like us, giving it a go and seeing their dreams come true. But this is probably my sixth fly-in or summit experience, and they're awesome. So you guys, I'm glad that you guys are here.
SPEAKER_00And I'm Clara Osterhage. I live in Dayton, Ohio. We opened our first hair salon uh 30 years ago in Springfield, Ohio, and have since I my love for entrepreneurs is so big because I spent 30 years building what now is 87 salons in four different states. And don't judge me as not being a small business owner because I am. Every single one of these is their own entity, their own community. It's amazing to me the difference that we can make. So 30 years strong. The brand is great clips, so I'm a franchisee and I have access to a lot of resources because of that. And I have been to, I don't know how many, quite a few fly-ins. This is such a phenomenal opportunity, and I'm excited for all the first timers that are here. Hopefully, you'll repeat return because it is this is pretty terrific.
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SPEAKER_03For Hill meetings tomorrow, we leave the comforts of this hotel and head to Capitol Hill where the pace is quick, the meetings are sometimes in hallways, the offices are small, and the policy experts are young professionals advising members of Congress. So, Clara, thinking back to your first DC fly-in, is there anything that you would add to that description or what was the most surprising part of the Hill experience?
SPEAKER_00I had no idea what I was getting into. Like going to DC and being around the people from Ohio that I get to be a part of, meet with, and learn from all the time. Um, it was pretty extraordinary to be here. The surprises that I had, it was amazing how much we all have in common. So as I would share my stories and would hear stories from other participants, we small business owners have just a ton in common. I was surprised by the openness of those politicians on the Hill. You sit in their offices, you may or may not actually have the politician him or herself, but the staff, the the openness and the willingness, they seem genuinely interested in what we're talking about with them. And I believe that it's a great opportunity to be able to express yourself and make relationships. And I know we're gonna talk a little bit about relationships in a bit.
SPEAKER_04What about you, Michael? Well, I mean, I'm from a small town in West Virginia, and you know, it was like, oh man, I'm gonna be hobnobbing with the people that are making all these regulations that are, you know, getting in the way of progressing and growing a thriving economy in my small town in Appalachia. So I was intimidated at first, and uh, so you get into let me just kind of set the scene. So you're getting there and you're in Capitol Hill, you're walking through security, and you don't know, you know, you're like, I'm gonna be meeting with Senator So-and-so, who I see on TV and maybe cast her to vote for. So you get in there, and like she said, you may not necessarily meet with the representative or the senator, but whoever it is, they actually are there because they want to hear your story. They need our stories to take to the hill and share what is actually impacting small business owners. Because we actually have a powerful voice, we actually hold a lot of power because we make up the majority of the economy. And so they have to listen to what we're saying. We make up a major part of the middle and upper class, we create the jobs, and uh, so that's a lot of things that you actually have. So you are empowered. They're there to hear you, they're there to listen to you. So my intimidation fell away very quickly. And uh they're very humble, they're down to earth for the most part.
SPEAKER_03That's a great segue, kind of getting into the goal of these Hill meetings. So, show of hands, how many of you have heard an elected representative say small businesses are the backbone of the economy? Let me see all your hands, because I know we've all heard it. And you know, it's really easy to say that phrase and not think much of it, but as Michael said, it's not to be taken lightly. You know, we like to say small businesses are the foundation of the economy, and that's the reality. You all are the job creators, you're the ones that are contributing to your local economy. So, tomorrow you're gonna continue to make that phrase real for these folks by sharing your small business viewpoints on the impact of beneficial ownership reporting, why they need to repeal or codify or make permanent the current rule and delete the data, and then also talking about the need for competition in the credit card marketplace. So I want to just kind of put you both on the spot. Michael, we can start with you. What do you plan to share tomorrow in your meetings on beneficial ownership and credit card competition?
SPEAKER_04The most important thing is sharing your experience. So my experience has it's been frustrating with those two issues. First of all, when Finson came out with the beneficial ownership requirement, I had a ton of people asking me, Do I need to do this? All these small business owners in my area, they're like, What's going on, Mike? What do I do? What do I do? And I'm like, you know, that there was a major back and forth. Eventually I just went ahead and did it. And I said, you know, I just want to skip possible fines. But I own and operate multiple locations of basically a restaurant, coffee shop, we do food and things like that. And so you have to have a manager. And so, like, when you have people in significant roles, and especially in that industry, it changes a lot. And so that requirement, I have to go in and change and update even that person's information where they live. And that's just a lot of personal data that is out there, and I'm sure anybody can break into Fenson's database and grab that info. Um, I don't necessarily want them to do that. And so I get what the whole goal was, but it doesn't penalize the criminals who have fake businesses. It really is an obstacle for us small business owners. What I'm going to ask is that they just strike that requirement and they delete all of our data that we've put on the system. So that's one thing. And a major problem that I know not just me, but other business owners, especially ones that are in retail or you know, mom and pop coffee shops, we all either have like a square or toast or something, and we're all having to swipe our credit cards, or everybody is, or use the tap. And if you don't have that, then you lose business. So we're required to have that because we're competing with Starbucks, Dunkin' Donuts, all the big corporations, all the I wouldn't even say big, mega corporations, giant corporations. And so for us to even exist, we've got to have those processors. And every time that credit card goes through, I know for us, I fight that every year. And thank God I get it knocked down or doesn't change that much. But I mean you're talking 17 cents every swipe. And when you're operating something like we are, we're on very thin margins. So they'll be hearing about that.
SPEAKER_00My turn. So beneficial ownership information. I don't know who in the hell it's beneficial for. And again, don't judge me. When that first came out, I'm the kind of person, you know, I have a list of things to do. I'm the kind of leader who wants to get things taken care of. So I'm not the smartest tool in the shed sometimes. I immediately filled out the information. The bad news is that I submitted it. I want to clarify, you're probably wondering, with 800 plus employees, why would I have to do this? But we have a management company that takes care. So I had to do it, I had to submit or would have had to have submitted for them. Unfortunately, the plot thickens because the company that I actually provided the information to was a fraudulent company. So I know, I know, couldn't get much worse than that. And of course, once I realized it after I'd paid my $250 fee to file, I know. See, you're judging me. He's over here going, oh. I'm kidding. It's it is beneficial for fraudsters. There you go. I just, it's that to me is the craziest thing in the whole wide world. And there it's duplicative. They already have the information. So my plan is to say, my stuff is out there because you came up with this really dumb idea and it it just needs to go away. It's it's duplicative. They already have the information that they need. And by the way, I think the NFIB said this early on. The people that don't report, the people that are problems and are fraudulent and shell companies, exactly what they're looking for, are not going to fill out the information. So it's just for us, it's just another burden. So I plan on passionately sharing that it was a dumb idea to begin with and it needs it just needs to go away. They need to destroy the information they've already collected from businesses across the country. Um, with regard to the credit cards, um, I we're a retailer as well, and so the credit card fees are ridiculous. On $34, $35 million worth of revenues, I'm paying upwards of $700,000 a year in credit card fees. And what's fascinating, I mean, for me, that's being able to open a few more salons. That's being able to remodel my salons. I reinvest all of the time. And of course, the most important thing to reinvest in is my human capital, my people. And so to be able to develop stronger compensation plans, stronger benefit plans, I mean, that money would be very helpful. It's a ton of money for the privilege of swiping. And I didn't realize this um until I did a little more research, and that is that those pass-through fees, there's a very small portion that goes to the company that I actually have the relationship with. Most of it goes to Visa, MasterCard, American Express, and Discover. So when you start to understand where your money is going, for me it's 2.1%, so which is it's a lot of money. When you start realizing where it's going, you'll appreciate the fact that not having competition in that space is a terrible thing for us. So that's the ask. The ask is that the bill that is out there passes, and I believe that it was J.D. Vance when he was a senator from the great state of Ohio. I believe that he was the one that first wrote that bill and presented it. The idea is absolutely very important. It's critical to any retail or small business in the country. So that's the ask for me. We need choices.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely. Well, and what's important to note about everything that you both just said is it was authentic and unique to both of your businesses. And so that's the same thing tomorrow. That's where you all have the impact. You know, maybe your credit card swipe fees are not six figures, but again, these folks don't, most of them did not have small businesses. They don't understand the concept of cash flow and how every dollar counts and every dollar that you have back goes into your small business. So thank you both for sharing that. And again, showing these folks and for all of you tomorrow what it means when they say small businesses are the foundation of the economy. So switching gears a tiny bit, but well, not really, it's kind of along the same lines. Impact, right? So there's this concept of second and third order effects. Some of you might be familiar with it, but essentially you folks live this every day as small business owners. The concept of second and third order effects is that you make a decision, it has an impact, but it's not, while that immediate impact is important, it's often the impact that happens after those ripple effects that are just as impactful. And so the reason I share this is because tomorrow in these meetings, you know, you're going to be sharing your stories, your small business viewpoint. Maybe you don't get an immediate, yes, absolutely, the congressman will co-sponsor. And to be honest, most of us won't get that. But that's okay. It's not about what the answer is that you get tomorrow. It's about those second and third order effects. So for example, maybe this looks like, hey, you know what? We just met with Michael with Clara in DC, and the congressman's gonna be home for a district work period in two weeks. You know what? I want to go by and visit their business. So maybe they're coming to your business, you're hosting them to continue the conversation that we start here today. Maybe those second and third order effects look like Congress has a hearing coming up on either of these issues that we're talking about. And they remember, you know what, NFIB had a huge group in DC from their fly-in. I wonder if they would have someone who'd be willing to testify. So again, it's not just about tomorrow, it's about those, the the ripples that happen after tomorrow. Um, and a side note on the testimony opportunity, just again, it kind of paints a picture of what this place is like, what Capitol has like. Often these testify opportunities come up about come up about a week and a half, two weeks. Congress is not great at always planning ahead. So just know if you get that call from us saying, hey, would you be willing to testify? Uh, we're here to prepare and support you all along the way. And same thing if you want to host your member of Congress at your small business. I would even go as far to say that if you're in the conversation tomorrow and you're like, you know what, this man or woman needs to really see what I'm saying, go ahead and invite them in your meetings tomorrow. So uh thanks, uh FGR team for helping to support that uh effort when these folks make those asks tomorrow. Um but those are just two examples of those second and third order effects. And so, Michael, I would love it, you know, if you would just help me illustrate this a little more. Um, you've had some experiences with your congressional delegation when it comes to asking them to co-sponsor things.
SPEAKER_04Sure. So um, yeah, so I have uh yeah, I so before I came, I had already reached out to the congressional delegation from West Virginia and just said, hey, I'm coming to DC, we've got some stuff we have to deal with. And uh I was encouraged by, of course, the NFIB to do that, and they set up the meetings and things. But in particular, the relationships that we developed, um they believe it began with a couple staffers. And uh so I didn't even meet the representatives at first and just talking with them. And then uh, but in particular, both Carol Miller and Senator Shelley Moore Capito in particular, she agreed to co-sponsor the Main Street Certainty Tax Act. And uh so that was a huge win in my book. I was surprised that she would actually do that, but I gave her that big ask and illustrated everything that is how it affects our business and how it would decimate the main street businesses in her district. And so when you have those relationships, when you give that big ask, you can actually get sponsorship for a bill that you're fighting for. And so that developed into multiple things. I was invited to testify before the Ways and Means Committee for four hours. For four hours, and multiple congressmen and women that are not fans of small businesses were shooting out like attacking questions and and things, and it was actually pretty fun. You know, I felt like I was there to educate these people, which I was, and so are you, because the majority of them have never ever had to meet payroll. Uh they've never signed both sides of a paycheck before. They've never been in uh the stressful situations of how do I start a business? So they don't know these things. And so you're there to inform them, of course, humbly, because that will get you further. You know, you of course you need to be thankful that you have their ear. And so there are some ways that you can have those experiences, be a friend of them, and they will listen, they will hear, and sometimes they'll even act on your behalf. And uh I stand as a a testimony that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So well, and you didn't mention this, but it's you we talked a little bit about how some of these meetings you'll have staff-only meetings, and some of you have heard us share this before, but the life of a Hill staffer is pretty quick. They can go from being at the front desk to like being the chief of staff within five years. And so what also comes out of this is that hearing, the staffer that actually worked with us um is actually the Department of Treasury now. So you just never know where these folks are gonna end up, right? Again, they could be the front desk person, and then the next thing you know, they're uh advising the secretary of the treasury. So thank you for sharing more about go ahead.
SPEAKER_04I was just gonna say it you can think about it like compound interest, right? You all know what that is. And so you just keep hitting it and going after it and talking to these people, befriending these folks, and like she said, you never know where they're gonna end up. And you will most likely get chances to have a seat at a table that other people wouldn't. And you know, there's a I'm this small town, small business guy from the middle of West Virginia, and uh, I shouldn't be there, but I am, and uh I'm there because I'm willing to share my story and my experience, and that's what I want to encourage you guys to do. Be humble, be confident, share your story, and be friendly. And that will go further than what you can think. That is currency here.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely. Well, Clara, continuing the theme of impact, from your point of view as someone who's hosted lawmakers at your small business, you also attend small business days at the Capitol. Would love to hear more about the impact that you've had through those opportunities. The impact is vast.
SPEAKER_00The NFIB, I just my hat goes off to the NFIB because in Ohio locally and certainly at the national level, it's amazing the amount of support that is provided. We had the opportunity to host uh Congressman Mike Turner at our office, and it was nice to have him there. It was interesting for him to be able to experience our People. We had some of the folks from the leadership council in Ohio that attended as well. And it was, I mean, it was interesting just listening to him. He wanted to share his update, and then we were able to share some of the concerns that we had. So that was very helpful. In Ohio, again, not to boast the Buckeye State, but we do a pretty darn good job at the Capitol, and I'm very proud. It's fun to be a part of that. And I don't know if all states do that or not, but Small Business Day at the Capitol is a pretty wonderful event and an opportunity to get to talk to people again. It's very, very helpful. He talked about the compounding interest, and that's what this is all about. I can go back to Congressman Turner at any point and talk with him about other things because we have that relationship. The relationships are what matters more than anything. There are events in Ohio where they have congressmen when they're back in district, they hold these events just like the one that we had at my office. And I've been able to listen to Congressman Jim Jordan a few times. What's really fun about that is every time we go to visit him when we're here, he says, You're the haircut lady. So, and then he shared with me a couple years ago that his, I think he lives in Urbana, Ohio, and his kids go to our salon in Urbana to get their haircut. So there's a connection there. I always hope that it's a good haircut, and I hope we never clip. You know, that's such a worry. Um, but it's a really cool thing because I look at him and look where he is today and the difference he's making for this country, and to be able to have his ear, I would feel comfortable reaching out to him at any at any point in time. And again, the relationship that the NFIB literally opens the door to be created. The work that you have to do is pretty limited. There's a gentleman, Jim, who in our group who just brought a number of people to Washington, D.C. that are his employees. What an investment in his people. He'll tell you his story when he has an opportunity, I'm sure. But the beautiful thing is the NFIB set that whole thing up. And I it so it made it easy, right, Jim? Like you're able to, you were able to come in and make a difference and expose your employees to something that was pretty tremendous. So the impact cannot be overstated.
SPEAKER_03That's incredible. Well, we know we have a lot of new folks in the audience. So I want to ask Michael, what is your best tip for someone who's a first-time attendee?
SPEAKER_04That's a good question. So I think what I would say is you belong in the room. So go in with that kind of energy. You belong in the room. And then two, I would say three things to remember. Just be your authentic self. Don't you don't have to be anybody else. Just be you. Okay, so show up as yourself. Be concise. So have your ask. You know, that's what they're wanting. They're needing that one ask, okay? And then three, tell stories, not statistics. They have a team of people that can get any stat they need, but they don't have stories from you. That's why we're here. So you belong in the room, be authentic, be concise, tell stories. Thank you.
SPEAKER_03Very good. And then Clara, I was gonna ask you what recommendation do you have for folks as they get ready to prepare? Like, how should they use this time to prepare conversations they should have?
SPEAKER_00Understand the issue. And Michael, I love what you said. Like it's you belong in the room, it's a conversation. And I think don't allow yourself to be intimidated because only you know your own story and the story that Michael wants you to tell. What I would do at these sessions is sit and kind of brainstorm a little bit with myself, like, so how do these apply to me and what are the key points? If I had to go right to the facts and the key points that I would want to make, and that's how I would prepare, stick those notes in my pocket. Tomorrow, when you get dressed, wear comfy shoes, bring your umbrella, tell your story with conviction, don't forget to make the ask, leave the materials that I know the NFIB is gonna prepare us with, get a business card from somebody you really like that was in the meeting, whether it was a staffer, and then thank them when you get home, send them an email, send them a note and say, Thank you so much for your time, and then keep in touch because that's a relationship now that you can compound the interest on and win. Well said.
SPEAKER_03Well, thank you, everyone. Thank you, Michael and Clara. There were a lot of takeaways, some final thoughts, you know, just the faces of Congress, the policy that they work on is always changing. But you all heard it through experiences in here. You know, you are the resource, you are the impact. So have confidence in your meetings tomorrow. I think that was already said. We're all here because it's about promoting and protecting the right of small business owners to own, operate, and grow your businesses.
SPEAKER_02And that's where we'll leave it for today. But if you'd like to take a minute to help amplify the efforts of these small business owners, in today's show notes, you'll find links to easily send a message to your legislator on the same issues small business owners were fighting for in Capitol Hill this week.
SPEAKER_01Thanks for joining us for this week's episode of the Small Business Rundown. Your continued support helps us amplify the issues that matter most. If you like this episode, please help small business owners find the podcast by giving it a rating, like, or review. You can find us at nfib.com and on YouTube, X, LinkedIn, Instagram, and Facebook.