Hey , welcome to Doing Life with Ken and Tabitha . We are so pumped that you're tuning into this podcast . It has been designed for people just like you . We wanna do life with you , share our wins , our defeats , our ups and our downs , in hopes that you'll grow closer to God and to the people that you love in your life . Sit back and enjoy today's podcast . Hey , what's up everybody ? Hey , everyone .
Speaker 1So , pumped to have you joining us today with another episode of Doing Life with Ken and Tabitha . We've been married going on 25 years y'all and we are teaching you everything that we know , everything that God has given us . We don't know everything , but we know some things . We're like that farmer's commercial we know a thing or two because we've seen a thing or two , and so we're so pumped to have you with us today . Today we've got a great one for you , Matter . Have you with us today . Today we've got a great one for you , Matter . Of fact , we've got one that I need you to really just sit down and kind of study for yourself , look at it for yourself , let God open your eyes , let God open your understanding . We're going to talk about five must-knows about women in ministry . Today's going to be good .
Speaker 2We're glad you're here . It's going to be so good and listen . If you're new to Ken and Tabitha , if you're new to this podcast , I want to say welcome . We're so glad that you're joining us . You know we pray for God to send people who really need this content for their lives , and so we don't think you're here by coincidence or accident . We think that this is the plan of God for your life , so welcome yeah .
Speaker 1And if you're new to our podcast , please hit the subscribe button and also turn on your alarm notification if you're on YouTube so that you can be the first to get the content as it's released . We release a new episode and some people they love just to binge watch it and just go back and just listen to and watch a bunch of stuff . But anyway , we want you to join us every Thursday at 3 pm if you so desire . But drum roll , please . Today is a great one , guys .
Speaker 1We are going to talk about women's role in ministry , women's role as pastors , preachers , what God has for the woman as it relates to her gifting , her anointing . There's a lot that's said about this , there's a lot that's debated about this and , honestly , I don't care about the debate , I'm just not in it . It's almost like if you are that kind of person that you already say this is what I believe and nobody and nothing can change my mind . This is not the message for you , this is not the podcast for you . It's okay . You can just keep on going forward . But if you're that kind of person that's just stuck in between and you're not sure what to believe and that's where most people are , even the people that believe that women shouldn't have leadership roles in a church , they're getting that from the Bible .
Speaker 1Now . It's a misinterpretation of scripture . It's a misunderstanding of the heart of God . It doesn't make sense hermeneutically , Genesis to Revelations and we're going to talk about that today . But I thank God for them because they have zeal , but they just don't have zeal with knowledge and because it's in the Bible . I'm thankful for their fervor , I'm thankful for their passion . I'm thankful for that . No matter what the Word says , they're going to do what the Word says .
Speaker 1So I would say that starting off that's the kind of person I am too . I am in love with Jesus with all of my heart , mind and soul . I have walked with Jesus for over 20 years . I'm not a perfect guy , but I'm doing the very best that I can to submit the full of my life to the full of his word . And so I know , when it comes to this topic , there's sometimes , if you don't agree with what another person says , or if someone thinks that your perspective is wrong , they will want you to be a false prophet or an error or all kinds of other names that they call you , and all of that is just a bunch of nonsense . It's why denominations are formed , it's why the body of Christ isn't as powerful as what we could be in unity . But at the same time , I thank God that he does give us revelation .
Speaker 1He does give us different streams and we're all at different places in our maturity . But this one here , I'm so glad that God has opened the eyes of my understanding and I believe it's a biblical perspective . I believe it's a perspective that's well needed , because if Satan can shut down half of humanity , half of the battle is won . Come on , today we need to activate the other half of humanity , because women have a voice that need to be heard . They have a call on their life , they have an anointing that is much needed .
Speaker 1And we just need to make sure that we discern the scripture properly , and we'll do our best to help people with that today . So that's a lot .
Speaker 2I mean absolutely . I love what you said . You know we're not here to argue or debate Like we're just not here for that . But we are here even for other women .
Speaker 2You know , for being a woman myself and speaking for myself , you know it is liberating for me to understand the gospel , to understand what God says about me and the call of God on my life , and so sometimes it is hard as a woman to step into atmospheres and arenas where there's all men and you may be one of two or three other women in that place , and it's hard . But what I wanna say is knowing the truth is liberating and empowering and women , like you know , we have two daughters they need to know that they are called of God and can be used of God , that God has put His Word in their mouth to be able to preach and teach and prophesy .
Speaker 1And it's not just preach and teach to a bunch of women or a bunch of girls , teenage ministry or women's ministry , it's to preach and teach the gospel to .
Speaker 1Of women or a bunch of girls , teenage ministry or women's ministry , it's the preach and teach the gospel to humanity men , women , boys and girls , and so the office that that hold , the office that a man or a woman can hold , that office is not an office that should be limited just to a specific gender , because you are , and I think we just need to kind of share a biblical perspective about that . But you know , we're coming up on Mother's Day , and so the first thing I'll start off before we get into our content . Today is just happy Mother's Day . So all of you women out there , and you have given birth , we honor you today and we honor you by our actions that we're going to share something that we pray is life giving that will bring healing and restoration to your soul and direction to your soul , because many times we honor mothers on Mother's Day but then we disrespect the very offices that they could be in and how God can use them , and I don't want to do that . I want to honor them on Mother's Day . I want to honor them for whatever gifting God gives them , and so I think today is huge . Today is important . I don't know where even . I want to start Very quickly
.
Speaker 1Tell me about you . So you are a woman and you've been called to the office of a pastor , and I see you cast the devil out of people , men and women . I've seen you prophesy accurately over men and women . I've seen you preach the gospel and so many people get saved . I see you help women and men around the world . But then at the same time , there has been times that we've posted something about women in ministry and then there will be people that make comments about how that's wrong and that's false and that's error and so forth and so on . We don't get a lot of that because we'll just block it or erase it because I don't care about that . But what I'm saying is how do you feel as a woman ? What's your perspective as we begin to dive into what God's Word says to us ? What has been your experience ? What would you want people to know to start off ? Does that make any sense ?
Speaker 2I guess . So I think I can speak a little bit . And so , fortunately for me , when I first got into ministry and I've seen women in leadership , even young , in ministry , and so I wasn't born in church . I have no religion , no tradition . I didn't have any former recollection of the gospel . The only gospel I knew was a correct form of the gospel .
Speaker 2When we joined a church in Washington DC and I saw a woman who was a pastor in leadership . It was a husband and wife team that led the church , and so my definition and my understanding of women in leadership has always been wonderful . But it was after I got ordained as a pastor and we came down to Florida to plant a church . That's when I started feeling the persecution . That's when I got you know , just kind of like some bad looks and things like that . I remember being in home . We were in our home when we first planted the church and we had a young man in his 20s or something like that and we were ministering to him and he said you stopped . And he said that he could not receive from me as I was ministering to him because I was a woman and he believed that all of these kind of things about that women If we just stop right there and open that up at face value .
Speaker 1That's crazy . I know you are preaching the gospel . This person's being saved , this person's being delivered , this person's being set free , but he being delivered . This person's being set free , but he cannot receive from you because you're a woman man . That's a sad misinterpretation of scripture , but that happens all the time . The twisting of scripture or the misunderstanding of scripture is what crucified Jesus . Those people had zeal . It just wasn't a zeal with accuracy . They had zeal , it just wasn't a zeal understanding that he was the Messiah . They actually called him a devil . They said you cast out devils by bells , above the prince of the devils . And Jesus is like oh my goodness , if I cast out demons by the spirit of the devil , then his kingdom is divided against itself .
Speaker 1But if I cast out demons by the spirit of God . The kingdom of God is at hand . It's amazing the women that can preach and move mountains .
Speaker 2And cast out demons . In the name of Jesus .
Speaker 1That ain't the way it works , Bubba . That's not the way it goes down . That's a sad interpretation , but he was taught that doctrine . Now this young man was in his 20s I think he had already been through a divorce . He was trying to date one of our spiritual daughters . He had locked on to some legalism , he had locked on to some religion , he had locked on to some things .
Speaker 1And if he didn't let it go . He still locked into that , and my challenge is that there are many people that would have great fire and be used in a great way , but they've locked into a doctrine that unfortunately isn't the fullness of the gospel and it's hindering themselves because it didn't hinder you .
Speaker 2You know what I'm saying , Like okay .
Speaker 1Yeah , that hurts . That's not a cool statement for somebody to make in my house while I'm doing a Bible study , but you still are who you are , but I'm sorry about that .
Speaker 2Yeah , I mean you just kind of okay , you know whatever I'm kind of like , but I'm thankful that I already knew that I was called , I already had an understanding of the scripture , I already had this relationship with God to where I can hear from God . Even if someone said something hurtful to me , that it wasn't going to sway me either , or Because when I said yes to the ordination , when I said yes to God , I counted the cost and that was just one of the costs . Okay , some people aren't going to like you , that's okay , I'm okay with that .
Speaker 1Can you tell me a little bit about your call to ministry ? How did that come about ?
Speaker 2My call in ministry I mean two ways . First , god spoke to me when I didn't really understand it . He said you're going to be a teacher , you're going to teach my children . And it is a time where , I mean , we were young and we honestly were looking for a church . I didn't even know much of the word , but I know God told me that one day I would teach his kids . I held on to that , didn't really know about it , but later on we go to ministry school . It was a three-year ministry Bible institute that we went to and one of our assignments was to find , if you have a five-fold ministry call on your life , what is it ? And so I asked God and he gave me a dream call on your life . What is it ? And so I asked God and he gave me a dream . He gave me a dream about sheep and me rescuing the sheep , and in that dream I woke up . I remember I told you the dream and we interpreted that dream as you said .
Speaker 2Okay , can you tell us about it a little bit oh yeah , absolutely , it's like my favorite thing , okay .
Speaker 2So I was in a dream and I was walking in like this open area , but then I came , came upon a big body of water like a small pond , and as I got close to the pond I saw that there was a sheep in the middle of the pond and there was a funnel of water like water going down a toilet , pulling the sheep down under , and the sheep was fighting for its life , trying to live . And when I saw that , immediately I ran as fast as I could , I jumped in the pond and I swam toward the sheep and I grabbed the sheep and it was a fight , you know , because it was trying to pull me down with it . So I pulled the sheep to safety and we were on the side , like on the shore , and I was talking to the sheep . But while I was talking to the sheep , I realized that the sheep was pregnant and as I was pulling the sheep away into safety , the force pulled the baby from her womb and now the baby was still in the water . So I turned back around , I went to the water and I got the baby and I fought again with all of my strength and came to the side . I put the baby on the side and I'm having communication with the mother . And as I'm talking to the side , I put the baby on the side and I'm having communication with the mother . And as I'm talking to the mother , I realized that the baby had gotten up and , on its own , decided to swim back into the water where the danger was . And the mother couldn't move . She was so , you know , like just out of strength and everything . So I ran back into the water with all of my strength and I got this baby out , brought it to safety . The mom and the baby were safe
.
Speaker 2And then I woke up from my dream and I'm like God , what is this ? What does this mean ? I mean , it was like you know how you wake up and you're sweaty and out of breath . That was the experience . It was a total bodily , body experience and that's where God showed me that he had called me to pastor , to be a shepherd like these sheep that I rescued out of danger .
Speaker 2That that was the anointing on my life , because God has rescued me out of danger , he's rescued me out of bad situations and now I have the heart and the strength and the passion to go into the water to rescue people and bring them to Jesus . And it's one thing that gets me even to this day is that he showed me how , like with the baby , some immature believers and even non-believers they will go back , they will go willingly to the danger , but don't let that stop you . You , with all of your heart and all of your strength , jump back in there and rescue them , because that's God's heart towards people . He will rescue them If they call on his name . He will rescue them . And I believe that's the heart of a pastor that God has given me and that I have , and that's the anointing on my life .
Speaker 1Yeah , well , this is what I know about you . You didn't make that up . You don't have the background to make that up . You got saved , probably when you were about 23 or so yeah , 22 .
Speaker 1And didn't have a church background . The call of God that came on your life was so pure , it was out the influence of a lot of different other things that people could be influenced by . Your heart was always just from day one . I've never seen you backslide in 25 years plus years . It's always been for Jesus . Now there are some people that will hear that and say , well , you just made that up , that couldn't be God . Well , you can believe whatever you want to believe , but this is what I know . I know that that was a dream from God and a call from God . That is a biblical call and there's women that needs to know that . If you've had similar things , it doesn't matter what man says , it matters what God says to you .
Speaker 1I'll give people the answers to the test before it comes . I'm going to give you , show you my hand up front before we walk through these five keys here . And there's a couple of scriptures One's found in first Corinthians that talks about women keeping silent in the church , and one's found in first Timothy where it says that a woman couldn't have authority over a man in a church , and it then talks about how Adam fell sin first and then Eve sinned . However , both of those texts , or any other text that you will have , it has to be placed under the proper exegesis of the word and then the proper hermeneutics of the word .
Speaker 1Hermeneutics is basically a Bible way to properly interpret scripture . That means that from Genesis to Revelations , you should see the spirit , the same spirit of unity , throughout the text , meaning that there shouldn't be a scripture that says this and then over here , the scriptures contradicts the spirit of God or the spirit of what's being said . So , from Genesis to Revelation . So when you read a text , you have to read the pretext and the posttext , not to take the text out of context .
Speaker 1So it's not just the pretext and the posttext , like read the beginning chapter and the end of the chapter . It's like look from Genesis to Revelation . And so what we see from Genesis to Revelation hermeneutically is that God always has used a woman . God has always used a woman in mighty offices . In the Old Testament there was prophets . In Old Testament there was a judge . Her name was Deborah . Deborah was not only a judge and a prophetess , she was the leader of the entire nation of Israel . We see that all throughout the Old Testament . In the New Testament we see women who were deaconesses , which is an office not just leading women prophetesses .
Speaker 1You cannot be a prophetess without authority , because anybody who's prophesying is prophesying from a place of spiritual authority or a deacon without authority and what a lot of people don't know is that there was a woman apostle In Romans , chapter 16 , verse 7, . Not only was she an apostle , in the correct translation , which is like King James and New King James , which is more of a word for word translation , it calls her a notable apostle , and notable .
Speaker 1Now the NIV and the ESV just makes her like a trusted believer . But what was her name ? Junis , Junia , Junia , Junia . So what I'm saying , and now I can go through like 12 to 15 women from Aquila and Priscilla , husband and wife , ministry team , to Phoebe , who was a deaconess . I mean we can go through women , Queen Esther and how God used her . I mean from Genesis to Revelation . We see , you cannot say that women can't preach because they did preach . You cannot say that women always have to be silent as a universal law because they was not silent .
Speaker 2They were prophetesses .
Speaker 1They were apostles . We see an apostle . We cannot say that they can't have offices of authority because Genesis , the revelations , there was authority . Now many people don't know about what is her name ? Junius ?
Speaker 2Junia .
Speaker 1Junia . You know so . Even when it comes to Deborah in the Old Testament , they'll pass it off . Well , that was the Old Testament . But listen , we have a better covenant , established on better promises , always been that a man and his wife are heirs together towards the grace of life , that Genesis 3 says there is neither a Jew or Gentile , slave or free , but we're all one in Christ Jesus . It does not mean that we eradicate gender . It just means that in the spiritual matters , we've all been made in the image and likeness of God . Man have been made in the image and likeness of God , both for mankind , female and male man have both been made in the image and likeness of God . Both for mankind , female and male man have both been made in the image and likeness of God and so in the eyes of God . So what does that mean ?
Speaker 1Hermeneutics now means that we have to go back to what Paul said in 1 Timothy and what Paul said in Corinthians and whatever else is the confusion , and say what did he really mean ? Because we already have an example that God would use women . So you cannot say that you , being a pastor , is unbiblical , because I can go to the scripture and see that God has called women to be in specific office and he sanctioned it , he ordained them and he used them . He used them back then and he's using them today , and I want to open up a can of just whoop , the devil , to release women to be everything they've been called to be . Oh my God , we need women who are on fire , preaching this Jesus raising the dead like never before .
Speaker 1And so , before we get into it , I don't understand it . I know what happens is that people are so tuned in to one text and they have been so taught dogma that women can't do this . I have women . I have women that have bought that . That's almost like black people believing that they need to be slaves because that's just all they've known . I know that's a far out example . That's almost like someone who's been oppressed so long and they go to the scripture and they've been taught . But this is what the Bible says , but nobody has ever said put it in context .
Speaker 1Look at hermeneutics of the word . Look at it differently . Look at how God has used . Even now , marilyn Hickey and Joyce Myers Even look at Catherine Cormanson Come on . Please , please , please look , Please . Look at church history . Please look at revivals throughout the world . Please look at what God's doing and don't say that's the devil .
Speaker 2Yeah , it's almost like I were placed in a cup and they could only jump so high , and so they were in there for so long , but then the lid was removed and now they could jump out and they could jump as high as they want , but they had been trained and believe that they can only jump this high , so that's all that they did . And that's unfortunate when it comes to the body of Christ and believers , who . Jesus has come and liberated us and set us free .
Speaker 1I hear in my best Jake's voice woman thou art loose .
Speaker 2Amen .
Speaker 1Loose , to be everything that God's called you to be .
Speaker 1And I'm thankful right now that there are people like Rick Warren and different people that have been , have taught the doctrine that women can't have leadership positions , that have now gone back and relooked at what we're sharing today and have changed their positions and are now putting women into their rightful places to be everything that God's called them to be . And I'm just not in the position I will say it humbly to stand in front of what God wants . I think there's a right way to do things . I think there's a wrong way to do things . I think that the order of the home is obviously God has given the husband leadership position .
Speaker 1Which leadership is ? Servant leadership . Jesus exemplified that through the washing of his disciples' feet . So it's not like I'm the man in the house , I'm the man . No , it's like okay , how can I make my wife better ? How can I serve her ? So leadership is not , it's an upside down pyramid where the leader is on the bottom , pushing everybody else up , and so in the husband and wife . But at the end of the day , if there's a decision that we need to make , I will always go to you .
Speaker 1I'm always looking for agreement . But if the decision has to be made , I'll make it as a head coach , I'll make it as a president , and then I need you to submit to that , based upon that office .
Speaker 1But when it comes to are you-fold ministry , gift , apostle , prophet , teacher , evangelist ? No , it's to anyone that the Lord God calls . So I got five must-knows here and I just want you to kind of run through these things and just , hey , we love you guys , we're praying for you . If you don't agree with what we're saying , that's okay , we still love you . We're not gonna be hateful towards one another , but that's what our podcast is about is about helping people go from where they are to the next level , and so we'll give you our best today . And so the first one is this the five must-knows is men and women are the full expression of God in the earth .
Speaker 2Can you talk about that ? Yeah , genesis says that God created man and women in his image and in his likeness . He created them male and female . He created them , and so it's very clear that the image and the expression of God , the full expression of God , is male and female . He created them in His image and so I think for a long time , if we don't have that full expression , like you said , we miss out on a lot . If you have just the male expression , then we are thirsty and hungry for that female expression in the earth . A lot of times I see like we go to big conferences where there's huge I mean all kinds of churches from around the world even that gather together and there may be 10 male speakers and there's one female speaker .
Speaker 1If that .
Speaker 2If that , if that . But this woman , I mean , everybody's talking about this woman and how wonderful she is , and oh my gosh . But did you hear such and such Like ? Everyone is touched and they talk about how they're crying and all of that ?
Speaker 2Now , it's not to take glory away from the woman , because she's anointed and she did her thing , but so did the men . They were anointed too , just as much as her , and did her thing . What was the difference ? We are hungry and thirsty for the female expression of God , like when a woman gets up there on that stage and she is nurturing and she is as a mother , as a spiritual mother , declaring certain things over her sons and daughters , over God's sons and daughters , there's a different kind of transaction that takes place . We see this in our families , you know , when the husband is absent or the father is absent , or when the mother is absent , there's an imbalance , there's something that's going on . That is not right . But I think we need that same expression in the body the male and female in the image and likeness of God .
Speaker 1That's so good . That's so good , all right . Number two is that ministry is a spiritual office . Is this something that people must know about ? Women's role in ministry Is that ministry is a spiritual office . Can you talk to me about that ?
Speaker 2I think you just talked about it a little bit . You said about the Bible where Paul said we're all one in Christ . There's not male or female , Jew or Greek bond , nor free , but we're all one in Christ . And then the Bible also talks about how , the gifts of the Spirit . God says who goes , he discerns . Okay , you have the gift of prophecy , you have the gift of faith . God distributes that as he wills .
Speaker 1Yeah , it kind of is funny . I mean , if you feel like a woman can't have any authority , that would mean they can't exercise the gifts of the Holy Spirit . So those non-gifts in three categories in 1 Corinthians 12 , word of wisdom , word of knowledge , prophecy , those vocal gifts , even healing , you're taking authority over sickness and disease . You would then limit women there . You might not say that with your belief , but it does limit . You are limiting what God wants to do , and I would never want to do that . We should never do that .
And then also you know the women's role we're talking about in church and leadership and things like that . But women have roles in the home , like if there's something going on in your life , you better believe I'm going to pray for you . You better believe if there's a sickness , I will take authority in the name of Jesus and pray for my husband . I will cast that sickness off away from you with my children and all of that . So this is . You know , God gives us these gifts and also the fivefold ministry .
Speaker 1though , though God gives those gifts , and so I think it's , it's a spiritual thing , and if we break it down to these natural things , it just well , I think that sometimes um was I think the word is patriarchal culture and so a lot of women wasn't educated , a lot of women couldn't read and a lot of the man's role was in positions of leadership . But the principles from God's word are universal and when you extract the principles from that time to our current time , it would be a wrong understanding of scripture to use patriarchal cultural text to apply in a universal stroke when it was meant for that time . In that way .
Speaker 1And maybe we'll get into a little bit which all of that ?
Speaker 2Yeah , but all of that came from the fall . You know , God created Adam and Eve to rule and reign together . There was no , you know , man over woman or woman , there was none of that . But when sin came into the world now , all of this came into the world when the serpent was cursed part of that curse was that the man would rule over the wife and the , you know , the man would rule over the wife . And I think that it's been a plan of the enemy all along to silence the woman to , you know , to keep the body of Christ from having that level of strength and power that we should , because if you can silence the woman , you've silenced , like you said , half of humanity .
Speaker 1Yeah , I believe redemption . That word redeem means to bring back again to how things were . I believe that when you accept Jesus there's a redemption , and to redeem us back into , like , the blessing of Eden . And in Eden it was a man and woman ruling the earth together as partners . More so we can see that when he says let them have dominion . Female and male , both have dominion , and so the dominion wasn't just given to the man , the dominion was given to mankind , the female expression of mankind and the man expression of mankind . But I'll get to number three . A third one to must know is Jesus gave voice to women , and I think we see that all throughout the you know the New Testament is that he gave voice to women . Can you talk about that ?
Speaker 2Yeah , I think if , when you look at Jesus's relationship with the women , you look at the women at the , the woman at the well , the Samaritan woman . This is the woman he first revealed that he was Christ in the earth to a woman . This woman went out and told everybody this is the prophet , this is the one who told me everything . I know Like she went out and started evangelizing , but he did that with a woman , a woman that he had no business talking to . If you talk about , you know society's cultural standards . Yeah .
Speaker 1Social norms . You know , what's funny about Jesus is that Jesus knew that he wasn't supposed to be talking to Samaritans , but he would break that boundary anyway . He knew that he wasn't supposed to be talking to a woman that way . He broke that boundary anyway Because Jesus was always breaking natural boxes to establish kingdom order . And really , if you look at the life of Jesus , you would see that the women were very , very close to the heart of Jesus .
Speaker 2Anything else on that Well , jesus wasn't following man's rules . Man said he couldn't talk to a woman at the well . God didn't say that , and so he was going against what man said . To establish what God says , that there's neither male or female .
Speaker 1Yeah , and I'm just hearing all kinds of things in the spirit here and there might be someone that says well , why didn't Jesus pick one of his original apostles to be a woman ? I don't know the answer to that question , but I'll say this as me , as a lead pastor if you look at my pastors here , I have the majority of men pastors . Not because a woman can't be a pastor , you're a pastor . We have Pastor Melanie and we have Pastor Crystal who's coming about and different things like that . But it's just that it's a lot easier for me as a man to kind of disciple , mentor closely other men .
Speaker 1You know what I'm saying . I can't tell you
. The Bible doesn't say why Jesus didn't do that . But I just believe that you know for me , for I know my ministry . It's a little bit easier for me in some contexts . You know what I'm saying to really do the touching and the things with another man you know .
Speaker 1And so now the trick of the thing is to figure out how , just because I'm a man leader , how to make sure I don't stifle my women leaders just because I'm a man , which means that I need to have a strong woman leader that can closely disciple and mentor other strong women leaders .
Speaker 1And so I don't know the answer to that but that has nothing to do with the rest of the have a strong woman leader that can closely disciple and mentor other strong women leaders , and so I don't know the answer to that . But that has nothing to do with the rest of the hermeneutics of the scripture . That's not a call out , that's not a like . Oh well , jesus didn't do that . No , jesus broke all kinds of boundaries , all kinds of norms . If he just so happened to choose 12 men , that does not leave a principle that women can't be used that way ?
Speaker 2Yeah , it really doesn't . I mean , there's all kinds of things . A lot of people aren't in ministry today because they're at home taking care of kids . Now everybody's not at home taking care of their kids . Some people go to work . I took care of the kids and went to work off and on . That's what I want to say .
Speaker 1I'm glad you're here .
Speaker 2But when Jesus , like Peter , these men , they had families . The wives were at home .
Speaker 1And watch this . I would say that the family ministry is more important than the other ministry . You know , my first ministry is my marriage ministry and then the other ministry comes after that and if we're going to be a team , one of us has to take care of the family ministry while another one takes care of the other ministry . But both of those ministries are in partnership .
Speaker 2So , anyway , anything else on , jesus gave voice to women . Well , jesus's voice . One of my favorite ones is the woman with the issue of blood , and many people know this story . But it was a woman with the issue of blood where Jesus healed her . She pressed and touched the hem of his garment and she got healed and knew it instantly . Also , jesus knew it instantly that power had gone forth from him .
Speaker 2And so Jesus stands up and he's like hey , somebody touched me . Somebody touched me . The apostles and everyone around him is like Jesus , what do you mean ? You know who touched you ? There's all kinds of people around . Are you crazy , jesus ? You know , like , what are you doing ? And so the woman she's trying to hide because it's illegal technically for her to be out there , because she was unclean at the time and all of this stuff . But anyway , jesus pursues this woman and calls her out . I like to say that he calls her out .
Speaker 2I personally believe , like Jesus , he knew the thoughts of men . The Pharisees and Sadducees would be around . He'd be like I know what you're thinking , you brood of vipers . You know , like he knew what they were thinking . And so in my mind I'm kind of like Jesus knew . He knew what he was doing . He knew this woman touched him and she wasn't supposed to , but he called her out . She was a woman who was silenced and she did not have a voice and she was cast aside because of her condition . But Jesus called her out , she stood up and she told him .
Speaker 2The Bible says the whole truth , jesus . I was bleeding for 12 years and I did everything . I spent all my money . I couldn't do anything . Please forgive me . I touched her garment and power came out and now I'm healed and Jesus speaks back to her and he says something that's so beautiful . He doesn't call her woman , he doesn't say . He says daughter , which is like daughter . I love you . You are valuable because you are a daughter . You're not an orphan . You're my daughter , daughter . You are healed and made whole and I think that speaks the heart of Jesus toward women who have been oppressed .
Speaker 1I hear the Lord saying that to women right now . Daughter , I love you , I honor you . Daughter , I still want to use you . Daughter my call is on your life , Daughter . You're not less than you're more than enough , Daughter , that's such an endearing term .
Speaker 2As a man with daughters , I love that , yes .
Speaker 1Yes , I'll go to point number four and four , as it relates to must knows about women and women's role , is that the apostle Paul endorsed women in ministry . He actually endorsed women in ministry . Can you talk a little bit about that ?
Speaker 2I mean he did , and now I have a couple like so here right here . Phoebe , we talked about a deacon . She was a deacon in the church , priscilla he calls him her coworker , priscilla . And some people think that Priscilla may have been operating in the pastoral role in the church , but when you read Paul's writings you'll see he talks about Priscilla and Aquila .
Speaker 1Didn't people come to Aquila and Priscilla's house Like ? I know what it means to . We know what it means to have people come to our house and launch a church . You is just as much an authority as I am . We need just as much leadership from you as from me , and that's who they were . Anyone else ?
Speaker 2But I love Priscilla and Aquila though , because I do think of that husband and wife team , that couple . But here's what I want to say about Priscilla and Aquila and Paul endorsing them in ministry is that in the Bible when you read , usually the man comes first , the person who is dominant in the relationship comes first . So you always Ken , and Tabitha is doing life with Ken and Tabitha . That means that Ken is kind of the leader here , he's the one that's in authority . But when they're talking about Priscilla and Aquila they don't say Aquila and Priscilla . That happens maybe one time when they first say Aquila and then they say his wife Priscilla . The rest of the time in ministry , when it's talking about this ministry role , they say Priscilla and Aquila , leading hinting that she is the one that is kind of like operating here in these pastoral gifts .
Speaker 1What about Euodia ? Is that how you pronounce it , euodia ?
Speaker 2I don't know . I think that is just somebody that Paul is . Just when he's writing his letters he's talking about , he's mentioning women by name . Hey , I just want to thank this person and I want to thank that person . Here's a name here that it's called Sintich . That was another person that he just gave a shout out to . Hey , she's helping , she's doing so much here in the church . I just want to , you know , just say thank you , just a shout out .
Speaker 1If you look at Philippians four two , it says that she labored with me .
Speaker 2He was shouting out people that labored with him so good .
Speaker 1And I think that's important that he had women that were laboring with him in the gospel , you know . Is there anything else you can tell us more about Romans 16 and 7 , which has a woman apostle that makes a nod to a woman apostle , junis , or is that how you pronounce her name ? And I think that's part of the problem . We read the Bible , we don't know . I don't know who Euodia is and Sintik is . If it was like Bill and Bob and Sarah and Pam , I wouldn't know . And that's what I'm saying is like we're reading this ancient text and then we're just being taught doctrine that might not even be liberating .
Speaker 2Well , some of it , like , if you look into , like different stories , so Junia , for example , the apostle , like she's clearly an apostle , it's written in the Bible . But then you know , you go back and there's research to say , well , this really wasn't a woman , it was a man . Because da-da-da-da-da , Like you know , people will try to argue anything , but it's very clear . You know that this was a woman , this was a woman apostle and she wasn't just an apostle but she was outstanding . I like to say she was the creme de la creme , she was the cream of the crop of the apostles , you know . And so I don't know . Just for me , I don't even need to get like into like all this history and all this like doctrinal like all this other stuff .
Speaker 1I can just go to the word and I see like oh , nouns and the pronouns and what this word meant and all of that .
Speaker 1I'm just like listen about the nouns and the pronouns and what this word meant and all of that . I'm just like listen . I done seen women cast the devil out folks and lead people to Jesus . Let's go . And I see it in the scripture as well . But anyway , I go to our last point . Five must knows about women's
role in ministry . Paul's writing has been misunderstood by many and the Holy Spirit is adding clarity in this hour .
Speaker 2Thank you , Holy Spirit .
Speaker 1Okay , and I think we must know that that his writings have been misinterpreted .
Speaker 1I just read an article from a popular Christian university and in their Christian university newspaper the head writer wrote a whole article about First Timothy and why women can't preach and women shouldn't be pastors and everything . And the boy looked at me to be about 20 years old . But he is at a university and he is amongst a denomination that has embedded this in him without him understanding hermeneutics and how God has used people biblically and also historically . So I hope that this message is able to reach people like that , but if it does not , I think it will reach the right people . But this is the point Paul's writings has been misunderstood by many and in this season , in this hour , there is the spirit of activation for women's gifts being released around the world and we need more people , men and women , to step into everything . God's called them to be and do .
Speaker 1Can you just talk to me about that a little bit ?
Speaker 2I think what they're referring to in in first Timothy is where Paul is instructing Timothy about , you know , giving him advice and how to lead the church , and he is talking . He says that women should keep to lead the church . And he is talking . He says that women should keep silent in the church .
Speaker 1Let me just read it to you , if I can find it real quick . Timothy in here .
Speaker 2Oh , here you go .
Speaker 1Oh , you got okay .
Speaker 2I got , I got you hooked up .
Speaker 1First Timothy , chapter number two Um , let's start at verse number . Let's just jump down to like 10 , 11 , 11 .
Speaker 1Let a woman learn in silence , with all submission and I do not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man , but to be in silence , for Adam was formed first , then Eve and Adam was not deceived , but the woman being deceived fell into transgression . Now you already got to understand that . That right there . It must be something else that he means , because Adam was deceived . Matter of fact , the command wasn't given to Eve , the command was given to Adam and .
Speaker 1Adam was supposed to give it to Eve , so they were both deceived . So when you really understand hermeneutics you'll say okay , what does that really mean ? Any insight to that ?
Speaker 2I think you know the first thing I think about when I read this is wow , paul , this doesn't sound like you , because it sounds so harsh , like women keep silent in the church , you can't say anything and , man , you're supposed to rule over the women . Don't let them have rule over you . It sounds like wow , that's a punch in the gut . After you have just affirmed me with Junia and Timothy you said , timothy , your mother and your grandmother have taught you so well and after you've placed all these other people women in authority in the church and spoke well of them . That's like a punch in the gut right now when you tell me just to shut up now . And so it tells me the Bible doesn't contradict itself .
Speaker 2Okay , if you say this here and this here , what's the story ? What's going on ? I have to dig in further . That's number one . Okay , and so what I find out when I've done research on okay , paul , what are you talking about ? There's a few things that stick out to me . Number one is just knowing the time that Paul is talking about and what's going on in the church in this time . This thing really spoke to me and it was like oh , it really opened my eyes personally and maybe it will do the same for you . So at the time there was a women's cult . I think I forget what the name of the cult was , but there was a cult going on at the time and all of the women were becoming a part of it , and the God that they were worshiping was the God of madness .
Speaker 2It was actually a woman , god , right , it was a woman . God , yes , and it was the goddess of madness and pandemonium . And the way that they worshiped was through loud screaming , jumping , dancing , running wild , inappropriate sex orgies , all of these things . It was just bad , and that's what was rampant in Ephesus at the time . And so now here comes Paul , here comes Timothy . They are starting churches and these people who were worshiping that goddess of madness are converted to Christianity . They come into the church and they're bringing their pandemonium into the house of God . And it's an outrage . And Paul is like that is outrageous . You tell that woman to sit down and be quiet , don't let her have authority over you . You know all of that stuff because it is . It's outrageous . It was a mockery of worship in the way we do , like singing to God and worshiping and clapping your hands . It was a mockery . They were doing too much . And so Paul is like , okay , no , we're going to start some order right now and this cultism is going to stop . We will not have that in the house of God . And then he goes on to say and that was one point .
Speaker 2Here's another point that theologians point out is that when you're reading this letter to Timothy . It's broken down to like different pronouns and so at one point Paul is talking to the church in general , men and women . There's a one point he's talking to just men . There's one point where he's talking to women altogether and there's one point where he's talking to just a , talking about a woman . And if this is the point , people are saying , when you look at that pronoun in the original text , that it is talking about a woman , not all women , but that woman that's causing a ruckus in your church . You tell her to sit down . Okay , which makes sense , because if you got the prophet in the church , how's the prophet supposed to prophesy ? How's the prophets not supposed to have authority ? If they don't prophesy , how's a deaconess not have authority ? So now it's beginning to make sense to me .
Speaker 2The third thing is this is that when Paul says , okay , so like Adam and Eve you know , eve , you know , was deceived and Adam wasn't he goes to talk about this thing and I believe what he was talking about there is that okay ? So , yeah , adam Eve was deceived in the Bible , but Adam , he wasn't deceived because , you know , he knew , like he knew , that it was wrong , but he went and did it anyway , and I believe that Paul was saying is don't repeat this mistake . Don't let this woman who has been deceived go out and run amuckus in the church and make the church like the cult that she's been from . Take authority over this woman . Don't do what Adam did and let the woman eat the apple . And then you're going to go and eat the apple too .
Speaker 1Well , it wasn't an apple , it woman eat the apple , and then you're going to go and eat the apple too .
Speaker 2It wasn't an apple . It wasn't an apple .
Speaker 1Yeah , it was it was a fruit I know . I always say apple , though I don't know . Apples are good , they are good .
Speaker 2But anyway , maybe it was a persimmon or a peach or a you know , but anyway I church in order , but he wasn't speaking to all women in all churches or all women in that particular church . It was the women who were out of order , the women who weren't doing godly things . If you were doing the rest of the chapter to said women , to be meek and mild and all of these things , if you're doing those things , let the Lord use you .
Speaker 1Right , I think , the part that I would bring out from what you just said is that there is a difference between a personal command and a universal command for all women everywhere . There's a difference between talking to that church or that woman at that time for that culture , versus a universal principle that's for every woman at every church forever every woman at every church forever .
Speaker 1We cannot take that text to mean it's for every woman in every church forever , because it would contradict the way that God has used women in other churches and other cultures and other places .
Speaker 2And it would contradict what Paul himself said in writing earlier and later writings .
Speaker 1So my hope is for a young leader to really hear that and say , okay , let me drop my rocks , let me let me put put that down a little bit , because I've been informed , but I might've been misinformed .
Speaker 1There is so much that we could dive into with this and , um , I would encourage you to do this .
Speaker 1You know , one of the books that have been a great blessing to give you real clarity concerning women's role in ministry is this book right here called why Not Women , and if you want to jump on Amazon and get this or jump on Google and get this , it's written by Cunningham and also Hamilton is their last name .
Speaker 1It's called why Not Women and it will break down every passage in the Bible , what it was referring to , who it was to and all that good stuff . So I'm going to look at you guys why not women ? You want to check this right out right here , and this will be a great blessing to you . It will break down how God used women throughout history , what Paul meant by his writings , how we are properly to apply those things to our life today , and so if you are a reader and you're not into the debate , you're not an angry person , that's just stuck in your way , but you're just looking for more information . I would really encourage you to take this and then take this , which is the word of God , and the Holy Spirit will help you find truth , and it's only truth that will make you free .
Speaker 2I want to say this very quickly to men you know , maybe you're a husband and a father . I think that this is a great read for you to lead your wives and your daughters , because , especially if you've been brought up in religion and maybe this is the first time you're hearing of this there's going to come a time when your daughter say , daddy , what's the call of God on my life , daddy , what is it that I'm supposed to do ? And even some of you have wives that feel frustrated and they feel like they have this gifting but they don't know what to do with it . Because they've been , you know , their fire has been quenched and now they don't even they're not even that excited about the things of God anymore , because they keep being told that they have to sit down , sit down , sit down . And so I would encourage husbands and fathers to get a book like that and just fill yourself up with the right information so that you can be a light and a leader to your family .
Speaker 1Joel , chapter 2 , verse 28, . Acts , chapter 2 , verse 16 , it says your sons and your daughters will prophesy , not just your sons , but your sons and your daughters . It says even on my , both my servants , both men and women , I'll pour out my spirit in those days not just men , but God is pouring out his spirit on women In the old
Testament .
Speaker 1Miriam , the sister of Aaron . She was a prophet in Exodus 15 , 20 . Deborah was both a prophet and a judge in Judges , chapter four and five . Huldah was a prophet in second Kings , chapter 22 , verse 14 through 20 . Isaiah's wife was an unnamed prophetess in Isaiah , chapter eight , verse one through four . New Testament for those of you all who wanted New Testament prophetess named Anna in Luke , chapter two , verse 38 . Tabitha was a disciple in Acts nine and 36 . Philip's four unmarried daughters prophesied in Acts 21 , verse eight through nine . Paul's fellow co-workers was women who labored with him in Philippians , chapter four , verse two and three . And of course , aquila and Priscilla was a husband and wife ministry team in Romans , chapter 16 , verse three , four . Phoebe was also a deaconess and Junia was an apostle in Romans , chapter 16 , verse seven . We can go through the Bible . We can also go through history , from Amy Simple McPherson to Catherine Kuhlman to Marilyn Hickey , to the list goes on to Dr Dede Freeman , to Tabitha Claytor , to women all over the world today apostles , prophets , teachers , evangelists who are ?
Speaker 1doing and I just want to say keep up the good work . The hand of the Lord is upon you . We need you in this hour and we pray that God would take this message and activate the other half of humanity to preach the gospel of Jesus around the world . Sweetheart . Anything in closing .
Speaker 2I just want to say I want to encourage , if you are a woman , to speak up . I'm not encouraging you to be ungodly or anything like that , but I would encourage you to seek God for your gifts and just to ask him what it is that he wants you to say and do in the earth . And I hear this what if Esther was kept silence ? What if Esther didn't open up her mouth and speak ? It could have been turned out a lot differently , and so I just want to encourage you to seek after God and do what it is that he told you to do .
Speaker 1Yeah , we love you guys . We would love to hear your feedback . This is a podcast that hopefully you will share around the world and then share again , and then share again and again . This is a podcast that hopefully you can begin to put into your leadership schools and into your ministry programs as you begin to seek the will of the Lord and find out good , balanced , liberating doctrine . Just know that we're here for you . Of course , this is a personal growth podcast , but it's also a relationship and marriage podcast .
Speaker 1I think that today's message will actually help a married couple . You know , I really do . I just feel like there's some , some inequality somewhere in a relationship and my hope is that we can submit one to another . That means that there are times where she has the authority over me or I have the authority over her . That's what it means to submit one to another . You are submitting . If the Bible tells me to submit one to another , that means that that person has authority over me at that moment . But anyway , here's our goal . We have a very simple goal . Forgive me One second . Sure , turn off my ringer . We don't like to do a lot of edits around here . I'll tell you what .
Speaker 2Here's the deal . We have a goal y'all , and it's to help see .
Speaker 1I'm just glad it wasn't my phone , okay , because then somebody would be having authority over me and being very bossy over me right now .
Speaker 1We just called that woman to keep silent in the church . But listen , guys , we have a goal to help 1 million married couples be better . We've developed a product called the better marriage boot camp and it is a 90-day journey with yours truly , ken and tabitha , to be your marriage mentors and your marriage coaches . This is what we know about great marriages is that great marriage has taken investment . So many people want a great marriage , but they're not willing to have a great investment to have a great marriage . We've taken 25 years of what we know worked well and what hasn't worked well and we put them into a 12 step program . If you can give us 12 weeks , 90 days , we can help you have a better marriage . We believe that with all of our heart .
Speaker 1The average marriage counseling is between $100 to $400 a session and sometimes counseling doesn't work . I am a fan of counseling . I would encourage everybody to try out counseling and to go to counseling . We do it monthly , but there are some people that go to counseling but it just wasn't what they needed , how they needed
it . We develop a product that might just be for you . It is basically giving you , like a focused approached , on-demand , at-home , 12 things you have to know , along with homework , walking with you every single day and this is what we believe is that any marriage can go from bad to good , good to great and great to out of this world . If you want more information about our Better Marriage Bootcamp , don't delay . Check it out today the link is in the show notes and if you sign up , we also have a Better Marriage devotional that we'll give you so that you can walk through 90 days . We want to help you have personal time with God for 90 days straight . This , in combination with our boot camp , is just what the doctor ordered , okay .
Speaker 1If you're new to our podcast , make sure you hit the subscribe button below . Turn on your notifications . Rock with us . Every Thursday . We'll be right here at 3 pm just helping you get better , and we believe that when you get better , the marriage will get better . We'll see you next week , peace .