Hello and welcome back to Willowaer. You're here with Rosie and John Gilmoss.
Jonathan Gill-Moss:Hi everybody.
Rosie Gill-Moss:Thank you for tuning back in again.
Rosie Gill-Moss:We're doing this one. We're actually recording this later in the day that we would usually put it out, but I think we massively underestimated how weird this week would be, because we had one child break up two weeks ago, two break up a week ago and one broke up yesterday, and those of you who are parents will understand the end of the summer term madness that happens in school. So long story short, because that really would be a terribly boring podcast to listen to. We were knackered, we didn't get chance to do it. We're doing it now. We're going to edit it quickly and hopefully get it actually Friday afternoon. So this is the closest run we've had with getting one turned around. And well, let's see, because I suspect this is going to be a little bit of this going on over the holidays. We've got interviews and conversations booked in, but in terms of doing these episodes, I think it's going to be a sort of seat of our pants and kind of record wherever we are, which might be interesting because we've got a few trips planned this summer.
Jonathan Gill-Moss:Yeah, yeah, it could be fun actually.
Rosie Gill-Moss:Hmm, yeah, let's not commit just yet.
Jonathan Gill-Moss:We'll see what the Wi-Fi connection is like in any of these places.
Rosie Gill-Moss:Right. So back to the matter in hand. We would like to just kind of catch up with you a little bit about Erica's episode, which went out on Monday. So again, for those who haven't listened, you must, of course. But Erica is a Brazilian living in the UK and her husband, julian, died, sorry, sorry. Erica died from leukemia and she just advocated for him in a way that just was so inspirational, and actually I had a couple of messages basically saying that if you were in crisis, you would want Erica in your team, wouldn't you?
Jonathan Gill-Moss:Yeah.
Rosie Gill-Moss:She just learned everything there was to know and even knew that he had leukemia before he did and certainly before doctors did, because she'd not done the sort of bog standard Google search. She'd basically become an expert on his symptoms and actually I have to say it didn't remind me a little bit of how you must have been with Sarah, because you kind of became a cancer expert very quickly didn't you?
Jonathan Gill-Moss:Yeah, then very quickly didn't become a cancer expert. Most of the knowledge dropped away. But yeah, at the time I remember reading and research and everything just gets up to speed. So it's remarkable what we do during those times.
Rosie Gill-Moss:I also when you say that you were this kind of temporary expert and that you knew a great amount of things about a subject for a short amount of time. And that's quite familiar as well, because at one point I knew quite a lot about the coroner's court process and the legal process of going to the high court and all the sort of complex things that went on. Could I tell you any of them now? Could I fuck right? No, I just assumed that was a sort of an ADHD thing. Really. I can't really remember my degree, but that might also be booze related, but perhaps it used to do with the, I don't know the brain just being completely overloaded and this sort of knowledge that you take on is no longer useful, so it just sort of lose it.
Jonathan Gill-Moss:Yeah, I can't even remember the name of the consultant for the life of me. You see my phone somewhere as I could find it before I did it, but I wouldn't know where to start and there's an entire patch of my life gone.
Rosie Gill-Moss:But I suppose you can't. You know it's there in there somewhere, isn't it? But it just gets pushed a little bit further back because you just couldn't possibly retain every single detail. And while you're living through it, you can't imagine a time where you won't remember every single detail. I can't picture the police officers that came to the house. In my head it was a male and a female and they were very young and, quite frankly, looked a bit out of their death on that one. Oh God, what a terrible analogy. Sorry, we don't humor, but you would think that those faces would be etched onto your memory until the end of time.
Jonathan Gill-Moss:Yeah, doesn't that? Yeah, but they move. Everything seems to move on.
Rosie Gill-Moss:And you are really firefighting, aren't you? Oh yeah, there were a few other really sort of moving and I don't know what the word is In some ways relatable aspects to Erica's episode. She talks about putting on the mask because you don't want your children to see the grief, and particularly, I imagine, when you are caring for somebody that's terminally ill, because, gosh, you know what's coming for this kid. You don't want to make the last bit any harder.
Jonathan Gill-Moss:Yes, I've got literally definitely never breathed face.
Rosie Gill-Moss:Yeah, it really really is, isn't it? And it's totally understandable, but it's really important that there's somewhere that we can take down that mask and not have a brave face, because living behind that is exhausting and you know, she was working really hard and juggling and it sounds tough, but she says herself, being busy is a coping mechanism, and it's one that I myself am guilty of. We both are. I'm an absolute nightmare, really, and I have been for sort of surrounding myself with people, and initially it was just sort of fill the house and have the noise and also, I guess, a little bit of permission to get hammered, whereas now I do manage it better, don't I?
Rosie Gill-Moss:I have sort of outdoor gatherings and you know they're a little bit smaller, but yeah, it's still the to-do list and the pressure. I'll tell you what. I'm gonna give you an example, and it's a really stupid example, but it's popped into my head. I was making birthday invitations for Tabby, because her birthday falls during the summer holidays and I wanted them to be in the book bag, because it's nice, isn't it?
Jonathan Gill-Moss:Yeah.
Rosie Gill-Moss:No, she wanted a frog in the night. Did I need to spend I'm gonna hazard a conservative guess at three hours searching Etsy, canva, the entire worldwide web, for the perfect frog invite and then insisting on although I did get a photo paper in the charity shop at 50p, that was the right result.
Rosie Gill-Moss:So I printed them at home, put them in the bags, and then I'm stood there debating whether I should put them in an envelope with a little frog sticker that they can all have and, you know, writing each individual chart. I actually stopped myself and I thought what I do with him. But this pressure to be kind of busy or perfect and overcompensate for I don't know, I've gone off on a tangent, haven't I?
Jonathan Gill-Moss:I think that's the point, that again there's the overcompensating for what they have missing.
Rosie Gill-Moss:Yeah.
Jonathan Gill-Moss:You just want to make everything a little bit more special.
Rosie Gill-Moss:Yeah, yeah, but it does come at expense to time and kind of sanity. So I've given myself permission to just make my life a little bit easier for a while. So I've done some things that I'm very lucky I'm able to do. I bought some frozen, nice quality ready meals and put them in the freezer because sometimes I can't think what to do and it just takes a pressure off. It's not permanent, because I used to really like cooking, but it's finding ways of sort of taking a little bit of pressure off. But yeah, it is difficult when you're used to outrunning the demons in whatever way you outrun the demons and stuff outrunning the demons and I've kind of run out of, I've resorted to literally running it.
Jonathan Gill-Moss:Well, I did some assembly and, yeah, I started to take about it earlier. So, for full disclosure, I'm back in counseling.
Rosie Gill-Moss:Well done that man. I really like it when men take care of their mental health.
Jonathan Gill-Moss:Yeah, and my personal counselor is like a personal trainer or you know, if you can sign up to a diet in the street package, then it's the same sort of thing.
Jonathan Gill-Moss:And you know I've had a tough couple of weeks and I did a little bit of help to solidify things in my head. So I think I've gone back into counseling and we were discussing how I pretty much let straight into counseling after Sarah died and after listening to all you guys' stories and everything else. And then the chicken and wine phase. Where was my chicken and wine phase? Well, my chicken and wine phase was burying myself in work. So I'm in counseling, not worrying about it. And it wasn't until I hit the three month mark and I decided to take me and Hulls off to Tenerife because I thought I'm going to be holiday alone with a child.
Rosie Gill-Moss:Let's just get this done.
Jonathan Gill-Moss:And that was very much my approach back then and I arrived with her for a week, landed on the Sunday, and then I pretty much slowed us down till the Thursday. It wasn't till the Friday. That's how I woke up and interacted with the world. Now I don't get it wrong. I was looking after Holly.
Jonathan Gill-Moss:You didn't just take to bed, I didn't just go to sleep and leave my daughter sitting as I. But I went through the motions. I didn't feel anything and I remember feeling absolutely horrible and the guys from Wei were all supporting me all the way. It was wonderful. I was like I'm going to go to the hospital, give them that little tea, and then on the Friday I came back to life and then walked into my house on the Tuesday I'm like what was that? And she said that is running. Learn to sit with your feeling. And that just took a long time ago. That was one of the first lessons I got taught, and so, however we get there that first point, I was actually saying to what today? I feel like shit. So I'm going to write it off, I'm going to do nothing and just feel like shit until you get to that point.
Jonathan Gill-Moss:Do whatever you need to do. Guys, just be safe.
Rosie Gill-Moss:Yeah, and I think it's really important that you do speak about this, because we are obviously very aware of men's mental health being an issue, and we did. We tragically lost a friend last week and the sort of community is really reading a little bit. So the women that do speak here out about mental health and actually Erica said in her episode. She said let the darkness in, and I think there's a value in that. You don't want to wallow in your grief, but you do have to acknowledge it and you do have to let it in and ideally you want to do that incrementally and not in a great big wave of it, but grief does what grief does.
Rosie Gill-Moss:So counseling personally gives me that outlet. So I'm for an hour or 45 minutes a week. I'm in the safe room, I'm in this room where I can talk about I don't know I mean I can't even think of an example actually but it's probably not anything that I necessarily wouldn't talk about to John at home, but it helps me to kind of put things in order. If it were I think you might have used the analogy once on here Everything's still there, but you kind of stack it neatly. And for somebody that is quite chaotic in both thought, speech and left unattended in life really, and being able to put things into the sort of safe pocket so I can go back in and kind of look at them, am I waffling or is this making sense?
Jonathan Gill-Moss:Yeah, you file them away, so everything comes back and you can find the bit that you need when you want to go and do things. And that's the exact analogy that I've put to me is you file the things where you can access them. They're not gone, but you can control the access to them and you can control your own responses to them so you're less crashing and you're more stable. But, as Julia Sammary all rightly puts, it's not an easy process. It's the hard way, but it's an easy process for anything in life, but time and everything will pass.
Jonathan Gill-Moss:every emotion passes and changes.
Rosie Gill-Moss:Yeah, it does, and let me say that you have to work through your grief because it is work. It's called work for a reason and essentially it is difficult and the only person really at the end of it that's going to do it is you. And that feels like a really harsh thing to say, particularly if you're in the early stages, because I don't mean that you can't lean on people and be supported and be cherished and careful, which I so hope most of you are. I know not all of you are, and my heart does go out to you, but it's more about making the choice that you want to keep living and that you want to experience things, and that your life has been irrec… God, I can never say that word irrecably, but I like irrec….
Jonathan Gill-Moss:I'm not ever going to attempt to say that.
Rosie Gill-Moss:No, okay, your word has been smashed to pieces, actually, and everything that you knew has changed, but there is still possibility and hope out there and I think if you can hold on to that and keep that going, that really is a powerful emotion to have, and when you go into a dark pit of despair, hope is very difficult to find, and one of the things my counter actually suggested was that you almost write to yourself. You know, just remind yourself that the you that goes into despair and feels very helpless and powerless is not really you. It's a temporary state and it will put… and, as you say to me a lot, it will pass. So that might be something to consider, just like a box, I don't know. Make sure you eat well, make your little favourite snacks and that sort of thing.
Jonathan Gill-Moss:Yeah, and also I mean you mentioned that your cancer teller and I also heard on the podcast, not today.
Rosie Gill-Moss:Is this just one that you've sent me?
Jonathan Gill-Moss:Yeah, which is…. Yeah, if guys want it, we'll print the show notes, but it's really good. It's the Doctor Alex Fox. I think he was something to do with Love Island. He lost his brother to suicide and he's now focused over to… Lobby and the government around mental health in New York that he's trying to raise a 200 million fund. Create these like drop incentives for mental health for under 25s.
Rosie Gill-Moss:Okay. Sort of catch it while they're young, sort of thing which makes so much sense.
Jonathan Gill-Moss:Yeah, and it's like we've always spoke about as well. Why's there no, just walking holistic, check top to bottom check for any new or diverse, any depression or anything else? And then sign push to the right people, but that's a conversation for a different podcast.
Rosie Gill-Moss:Well, I know we keep coming up with ideas for a podcast. We should probably get one going. I have done that brag, but I have recorded four episodes. This week I was interviewed on ADHD Mums, which, considering the name of the podcast, probably gives it, or. He only took us four attempts to arrange, which I think successful, and I had a really lovely time. I've never been interviewed on a podcast before and yeah, it was awesome. I quite enjoyed it. I tried to interview them a couple of times. I sort of forgot who I where I was.
Jonathan Gill-Moss:I just threw up any other podcast after that with likes closing. Get to our website at wwwwidnafcom and look at contact Always hustling.
Rosie Gill-Moss:Always hustling. So one thing I do want to mention is that almost everybody will now have broken up for the school holidays if you have school aged children, and that comes with a host of highs. But also it's very, very difficult. It's difficult if you're working, because who the hell can take six or seven weeks off? I mean, we're very fortunate we work for ourselves. It's difficult if you're on your own, because it feels like everybody's going on holidays or hanging out with people or doing stuff with families and it's really really difficult.
Rosie Gill-Moss:So one thing I had a little idea because within my social group I'm no longer the person that's on their own, but I was and there are people in my social group that are separated, you know. Anyway, I don't need to know what that really do and what we're going to. We've got a WhatsApp group and I thought why don't we just kind of check in in the mornings with the group and just be, especially if you live close to each other, and just sort of say it Does anybody you know if you're going to the park and maybe just say, does anybody want to come to the park? And that kind of 15, 20 minutes of just interaction with other humans is really really powerful and really good.
Jonathan Gill-Moss:It is, it is. That's a good idea.
Rosie Gill-Moss:Yeah, Because it is.
Rosie Gill-Moss:It's only actually, and for many people who have a much more nuclear family, you know, somebody's got to work, usually during the summer, so many mothers shouldn't usually, and sometimes dads will be left kind of holding the fort and thinking, oh my God, how am I going to entertain these kids for six weeks without going mental or bankrupt or healthy combination of the two.
Rosie Gill-Moss:So I think that I personally think that's a really helpful idea and I know that it's quite difficult to ask for help and I felt quite resentful having to ask for help because I thought it almost should be a given. But I don't know, people, your what's going on in your life is the most catastrophic thing, but to everybody else the lives are still turning and that is something that we do have to sort of accept. And obviously this doesn't just apply to the dope people, because all of us need a little bit of human kindness and interaction. And you know, however happy or content your family life may be, some holidays they are filled with magic, but they are also filled with a lot of demands for snacks, A lot of snacks. I don't know whether to just go to Audi and just like do a supermarket suite and fill like a cage For feed just let them.
Jonathan Gill-Moss:They'll throw the kids into it, they will understand.
Rosie Gill-Moss:Actually, that's not a bad idea. One year, in fact, it was locked down. I filled up one of those massive drinks dispensers and just put it outside, because they were not quite at the making their own soft drink stage, and had, yeah, the snacks. What do you guys do about snacks? Just throw them at them like wild animals.
Rosie Gill-Moss:They quickly found the snacks that are in favor of this particular week you load up on them and they know if you buy really cheap biscuits or something to try and pad it out. But whatever you have to do to get through the summer holidays, people, you know within reason you crack on.
Jonathan Gill-Moss:And a little bit more hustling, we are at last count four Instagram followers we're all the thousand followers. So tell your aunties, tell your uncles, tell them, it just gives a follow and gives a little celebration. That's where you can please.
Rosie Gill-Moss:We're so pathetic, our Instagram followers are so pathetic, but we just. I like it to keep it as it is. I'm a creature of habit.
Jonathan Gill-Moss:Apparently. We have to keep reminding you to like and subscribe.
Rosie Gill-Moss:Oh, you just like saying it, just record yourself saying it and pay it at every episode.
Jonathan Gill-Moss:Also whilst I have everyone's ear, especially at the end of the day. So we had Julia Samuel on at the beginning of the month and we also did a little affiliate deal with the software development company behind the app that does Julia's grief works app, and they're very kindly given as a referral link for this. Closer you will get a discount we will get I think it's 20 pound per sign up. We've had a little bit of a problem getting that set up. We tried to do it through the month of July but we took a few technical faults. So I'm hoping to get that ridden this month. But if anybody wants to link in the meantime, just drop us a DM on Instagram.
Rosie Gill-Moss:And we genuinely think that this could help somebody. We are not pumping this out for our own benefit. I promise this is genuinely that we think it may be helpful.
Jonathan Gill-Moss:Sorry to interject, but it's the actually coming out the chicken and wine phase. It's a safe way to go and have a look at what you might be facing coming out.
Rosie Gill-Moss:And it's a bit less of a sort of financial commitment than therapy as well, so it's an access point into the world of healing, if that doesn't sound too fatty. I did want to say something else. Actually, I completely forgot about this. I had a message on my work Instagram and it was from a mum who has a child in the same primary school as our youngest child and has seen me and listens to the podcast. She's widowed and hadn't sort of felt that she felt it would be weird to sort of come up and accost me. So she sent me a message and I was so touched by this and she actually drove past me yesterday.
Rosie Gill-Moss:So now I've put a face to the name, because her Instagram didn't have many pictures and I was like, oh my goodness, who is it?
Rosie Gill-Moss:But I just I love that and I also, in a way, it makes me sad that I didn't know that there was another member of my tribe that was standing at the school gate and I wished.
Rosie Gill-Moss:But I do now and I will reach out to you, hon, it's just this idea that we are walking among you and it feels nice. Wid's in the world, isn't it? It felt nice to connect with somebody because, whatever life throws our way and wherever it may take us, and whatever wonderful adventures we may go on, we are all united by the fact that we have lived through what is a fairly unique loss the loss of your spouse, the loss of your partner, the loss of the person that you shared your life with and expected to spend the rest of your life with. It's really catastrophic, and to reach out to each other and feel this sense of community is incredibly powerful, and I love that this podcast is creating that. So thank you to all of you for listening, reaching out to each other and to us, and it means so much that you all find some peace and comfort hearing us.
Jonathan Gill-Moss:It certainly does. Some of it like my constant husband is probably down to wind up and I'm going to stop that now. No, we like it, we like it.
Rosie Gill-Moss:Well, clearly I've lost a pair of speech, so I think that's the time to wind this up. So lots of love everybody. We are going to attempt next week. We will be flying out to the beautiful island of Skjafos on Wednesday and to see my best friends get married. So this is going to be really lovely and we'll see what the Wi-Fi connection in the villa's like. But hopefully we will be broadcasting to you from Greece. Take care everybody. Lots of love, Bye-bye.
Jonathan Gill-Moss:Music.