How Faith, Rhetoric, And Black Memory Resist White Christian Nationalism

We trace Black history as living resistance, linking Reconstruction to today’s bans and misinformation while centering Henry McNeal Turner’s radical theology and the Colored Conventions as blueprints for action. Faith, rhetoric, and archives become tools to confront white Christian nationalism and build abolitionist sanctuaries.

• significance of Black History Month amid erasure
• Reconstruction as a mirror for current politics
• rhetorical strategies for truth in a noisy age
• Africa as origin and identity anchor
• Henry McNeal Turner’s evolution and legacy
• women’s influence in AME leadership and ministry
• “God is a Negro” as liberating claim today
• abolition as faith practice and community design
• the 19th‑century Colored Conventions movement
• current books, research, and ways to support

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Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Welcome to the Abolitionist Sanctuary Podcast, where we talk faith, abolition, and Black Motherhood. I am your host, Reverend Dr. Nikia Smith Robert, the founder and executive director of Abolitionist Sanctuary. We are a national coalition leading a faith-based abolitionist movement. Thank you to our audio and visual audiences for joining us on YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, and all streaming platforms. Let's build abolitionist sanctuaries together with this critical and candid conversation for today's episode. Welcome to the Abolitionist Sanctuary Podcast. Thank you to our viewers on YouTube and our listeners on all audio platforms for streaming this podcast. We are excited to bring to you another episode. I am your host, Reverend Dr. Nikia Smith Robert, and I have with me our guest, the Reverend Dr. Andre E. Johnson. Andre Johnson is a professor of rhetoric and media studies at the University of Memphis and a distinguished professor of religion and public theology at Memphis Theological Seminary. He is also the director of the newly created Center for the Study of Rhetoric, Race, and Religion. Dr. Johnson's research examines the intersection of rhetoric, race, and religion, and he teaches courses in political communication, African American rhetoric, and public address, as well as religious communication, interracial communication, prophetic rhetoric, and social movements. He is a widely regarded, preeminent scholar of the life and works of AME Bishop Henry McNeil Turner and has published two award-winning books and numerous articles and book chapters on Bishop Turner. Dr. Johnson is currently working on a book on the 19th century Colored Convention movement. In addition to his academic success, Dr. Johnson serves as the senior pastor of Gifts of Life Ministries in Memphis, Tennessee. Join me in welcoming our esteemed guest, Reverend Dr. Andre Johnson. So wonderful to have you here. How are you?

SPEAKER_02 2:31

I am well and thank you so much for the invitation. I cannot go on Facebook now and say I was not invited. I was invited by the great Reverend Dr. Robert. So thank you again.

Why Black History Matters Now

SPEAKER_00 2:45

It is indeed my honor. I'm excited for the conversation we will have. This is Black History Month, which is perhaps more important now than ever, with so much at stake with the erasure of Black history. And so we want to take this opportunity to screen, celebrate, proclaim the goodness it is to be Black, that Black is indeed beautiful. And we are excited to exalt our history and heritage, recognizing that every day is Black history, particularly for those who embody it. So thank you. And I want to ask you, what do you view as the significance of Black history for a time such as this?

SPEAKER_02 3:31

Wow, what do I? It's so much. It's just so much. Let me just start off by saying, first of all, again, thank you for the invitation. If I go by he, here and here, I'm showing up in this space right now with a blue top on, with Greek letters five beta sigma. I am Fraternity Incorporated with a black sweatshirt underneath. I am in a room with books behind me and sitting in a chair having a conversation with the great Dr. Robert. I've come by way of the child of Rose Marie Johnson Brown and Charles Sigurd. I was raised by William Randolph. And I am honored to be the husband of Lisa Jones-Johnson. And I have many nieces and nephews, and I have a whole lot of folk praying for me, people at G Life, people at my different schools that I have the privilege of serving and working at. I am just honored that I stand on the shoulders of the ancestors. My grandmother Bessie May, my grandfather Violet Johnson, and host of others. Tom Stewart, I was blessed to know and meet my great-grandfather and Miss Rosie Stewart, his wife. And so it is again an honor and a privilege to be in this space and in this place. Black History Month is so important now, more than ever before, because, as you know, blackness is being under attack. That's what I like to say. Blackness is being under attack. Anything that is known as or pointed out as, or anybody that's talking about anything dealing with black or blackness, is being under attack right now. So it is incumbent upon us to, first of all, learn our history, to share our history, and to know our history, know it and hear. Know that there are people, the people that I like to write about and study that have gone through the crucible of being attacked because of their blackness. And somehow, some way they made it through to be able to pass the baton to us. So I need to understand, it is so crucial now to understand and to know black history and not just the black figures, that's important too, but the history surrounding those figures, the context in which those figures live. So again, it is very, very important. And I am just so glad that I am here with an opportunity to talk about it.

Reconstruction’s Lessons For Today

SPEAKER_00 6:20

Thank you. I appreciate that response, but since we're throwing up letters, let me let me share mine. I am showing up in this space with the best color of the rainbow. It's called Crimson and Cream. And I have some Fenty MVP red lipstick to match it, along with some blonde box braids and red earrings signifying our heritage with the continent Africa black sweater with the Greek letters Delta Sigma Theta, representing the biggest and best sorority, incorporated. And I am glad to be joined here with the panhellenic love and D9 love. I also come from a people in which I'm extremely proud of, particularly a Singapore black mother named Carol Smith and her mother, Fanny Johnson, and the eight other siblings who hail from Williamston, North Carolina and migrated to Harlem, New York. So I'm a product of Harlem and my pronouns are she and her as well. So, Dr. Johnson, thank you for that introduction and reminding us the importance of Black history and knowing it in our heart. But, you know, for so much of our social and political climate, that history is currently at stake. And so I wonder if you could tell us, just for the record, from your perspective, what are some key starting points or highlights in the history of African people? But also what are some glaring misrepresentations or even fallacies?

SPEAKER_02 8:01

Wow. One of the things that I find fascinating on one end, but also disappointing, is when we study the period of Reconstruction. When we talk about African Americans or Americans, Africans on the soil, what is now known as the United States of America. The Reconstruction period is the closest period in history to me now that we are now living in. After Reconstruction, post-Reconstruction, with all of the gains that black people made, all of the sacrifices that black people made, all of the work that black people, that was just literally snatched away, taken away. It was in that time that this country did not punish the Confederacy, did not hold them accountable. How can you fight against a country and rebel against a country and literally five years later, you can be elected, as in the case of Tennessee, governor when you were like a general in the Confederate Army? And you become the governor of the United States.

SPEAKER_01 9:40

Some people are shocked of how they rule.

SPEAKER_02 9:43

This is the point that I try to make in my classes that reconstruction and post-reconstruction gives us examples of how our time is going on right now. I know we're going to talk about later my some of the work that I'm doing now with the color conventions and all of that, but but back to the questions. Because the exact same thing, the erasing of Black history, this whole lost cause narrative, and the Dunning School of Historiography, which pretty much said that Reconstruction was a failure because Black people were in charge. Some of the same language, some of the same rhetorical templates that were used in the 19th century are being used today. And so I just find that fascinating on one end as a scholar and looking at it, but also highly disappointing that we are reliving a lot of this.

Erasure, Bans, And Authoritarian Playbooks

SPEAKER_00 10:52

Thank you for sharing the ways in which history comes back to haunt us and why it is so important for us to know it so that we can resist, right? And to also point out the contradictions of racism in America, right? And the contradictions of even religion, right? A religion that, you know, Jesus being a first century abolitionist who read from the scrolls of Isaiah to announce his purpose, his ministry was to set the captives free, was to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, give, you know, drink to those who are thirsty, to heal the brokenhearted, right? That there was a social plan in Jesus' ministry, yet there's a contradiction in not a God of liberation, but the God of white supremacy that undergirds the idea that God isn't for everyone's liberation, that God is this exceptionalist, that it's only for the powerful, the privileged. And so that is a contradiction that we see in religion, but you also mentioned the contradiction we see in race, that the people who undermine democracy can't be the same people who are in charge of it, right? Wow. I want you to talk to us about these contradictions specifically within Trump's presidency. We have seen a ban list that includes books, words, and ideologies. Why do you think the government is so vested in rewriting history with the erasure of marginalized groups, particularly black people?

SPEAKER_02 12:24

I'm so glad you brought it up because it is a rhetorical action plan. It is. I have been calling for hush harbers to reappear so we can begin to start having these kind of conversations and dialogue because a lot of people don't understand the period in which we find ourselves. It's up to us to share what we know and help the people move forward.

Rhetoric, Silence, And Speaking Truth

SPEAKER_00 15:12

In a time where information becomes power, and it is important for us to control the narrative because we understand that misinformation is a tool of empower, empire, and it is a part of the 12-point plan of authoritarianism. And so the erasure of history and of facts, right, is the tool that is used for oppression and to undermine our democracy. And so we have to keep telling the story anyway. And what's so powerful, what is so powerful, Dr. Johnson, about our history. And it was a history that was transcribed. So we hold the power because we always have the power to tell our story that we don't have to depend on what they decide to publish or not publish. But but it was the grios, it was the storytellers, it was the stories that were transmitted from mother to daughter at the kitchen table with the hot comb or hair braiding. And so the power of our history is to not be silenced so that we can continue to tell our story.

SPEAKER_02 16:31

And that was long before all history becomes a thing in the academy, right?

SPEAKER_00 16:36

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 16:43

Once we begin to make the connections, then we begin to see oh, this is one of the reasons why they did not want enslaved folk to know how to read or write. Because if you don't know how to read and write, then you may not know what you need to know. But as you just mentioned, Dr. Robert, that still didn't stop the information because the old traditions kept being passed down. And so we might need in this, I love how you said it, in this age of misinformation of disinformation, information becomes the powerful tool that we need. So I am inspired even right now to do even more. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 17:26

Absolutely. And I know you are your area of expertise is rhetoric. So before I pivot to the more specific historical figures, that is also a part of your expertise. Tell us why, in an age where misinformation is privilege, why information is power through the lens and expertise of rhetoric and race.

SPEAKER_02 17:51

I've been trying to drill in on that question all week long. I was in a, you know, back in January, I was in a one-week intensive and religious communication and public theology. And one of the things that we have wrestled with from the beginning to the end was the fact that we were trying to figure out what rhetoric, what words, what language to us, how do we come into a space that's already noisy, that's already filled with channels. Maybe the first and foremost step that we need to do is to walk into or to be in a space. And when we find ourselves with a concopy of voices already echoing, one of the things that we can do is go back to the Africana tradition of communication. And one of the first canon or the first canon of Egyptian rhetoric is silence, is to sit and to discern. And not just to jump quickly and to write your think piece or to write or to say something quickly, but to sit for a moment and just hear and listen and then discern what it is that you need to say, and to be grounded in mock, which is truth, wholeness, shalom, well-being, and being an authentic person of truth and a bearer of truth, meaning that I believe what I'm about to say or write right now is true. And if not, I have opportunity to come and to rectify or to apologize or to make right, but to stand in that truth and to keep pushing truth. Case study I did a while ago was on the January 6th insurrection. And as much as people are saying there wasn't an insurrection, there was just people walking and having a good time. A few folk got out of hand, maybe, but they were just tourists and they would much as all of that was going on, I just kept speaking the truth. Don't be gaslit, don't be fooled. You know it's in here. Discern what it is for yourself. And you need to do a little bit more investigation if you really want to find out the truth about that matter, because everything that's coming on our social media feeds is not true and it's not for our best interest. One of the things that we're gonna have to protect ourselves, and this comes down to election time when people are pitting up against one another. It's time out for that. We have to come together and to begin to understand that, hey, I know what it is that you're trying to do. I know what you want me to do, I know where you're trying to point me, I know what you're trying to persuade me to do, but I'm not gonna do that because I know your game now, and I am going to do something that's going to benefit me and my family and ours and the whole of the community. Because going back to the African traditional communication lens, Bluetooth says, I am because we are, and I cannot be if you are not who you are.

Beyond Slavery: African Origins And Pride

SPEAKER_00 21:18

Yeah, that's really good. And I think it was John in John where it says, and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free. Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free. So there is liberation in truth telling, that truth telling is a form of resistance, and it's also a holy and sacred act. That is very important. And I'm glad that you raised it. I'm also glad, and as you were identifying significant historical periods, there is a richness to understanding that our history does not start in slavery. Right. As we talk about truth as freedom, then let's be clear that our history does. Not begin in our servitude. But there is a rich history that dates back to Africa, the continent, that continent that is one of the richest lands of natural resources, a continent that originated civilization, a continent where we were kings and queens and inventors and tribal leaders and whole families. War is waged against that land. That rhetoric and narratives are waged against that land because of the richness that came from it. America wouldn't be who it is without the origins of the human race and civilization, sciences, math that comes from the continent Africa. And if we can't be proud of that, then it alters our self-determination and identity. There's a vestment in teaching us that Africa isn't the starting point. Slavery is. What I like about the work that you're doing is also recognizing that our history in America is rich when we start from Reconstruction and also not slavery. When I teach my course at the University of Kansas, Jailbirds and Jayhawks, Abolition and Bleeding Kansas, I look at abolition's starting point from a reconstruction, reconstruction, and post-Reconstruction, not a pre-antebellum and post-antibellum narrative. I want us to go deeper and to drill down into some specifics. Talk about in this timeline, Africa pre-Reconstruction and post-Reconstruction, where do we learn about Henry McNeil Turner? Who is a historical figure that is at the center of your work? Talk to us about the importance of Henry McNeil Turner for Black history.

Henry McNeal Turner’s Life And Shift

SPEAKER_02 23:59

Oh my God, I can talk about that all day. Turner was born February 1st, 1834. So apropos, I guess, he's born in Black History Month, which we now know is Black History Month. What can we say about Turner? Turner lived through He was never enslaved himself, but he worked alongside the enslaved. The stories and all of the songs and all of the knowledge and the wisdom that came from those ancestors were poured into him. He self-talked. So he's an allodac. He taught himself how to read and write. And by the time it was all over, he spoke Hebrew and Greek and, of course, English and other languages and dialects. He becomes, during the Civil War, the first African-American chaplain of the Union Army, which is now, of course, the United States of America. He becomes a state legislator. He becomes all of these wonderful things, becomes a bishop and all of those types of things. But he is a fascinating figure because you can see, and this is what I try to chart out in my writings on Turner, his rhetorical trajectory, or his growth as a theologian, really, or his growth as a religious studies person or a person of faith. Because he starts off as one of the most conservative as it relates to the Bible, because this is what he had read, and this is what he had read of others, and he believed it. And by the time in 1915, when he passes away, he is one of the most progressive thinkers of the age, ordaining women in 1885, saying that we ought to have a black understanding of the Bible. And as some of the women, Elizabeth Katie Stanning during the 1890s were contemplating doing a woman's Bible. He was saying, we ought to have a black Bible. And all of his work, all of it, points to an abolitionist framework, Freedom, Liberation, and Democracy. And he began to grow and to see the context in which he finds himself. One of the most fascinating things is that, you know, in 1866, he gives the Emancipation Day speech, the first day of emancipation for black folk, and he gets up there and in his clothes, he says, Let bygones be bygones. Let us not hold any grudges. Let us be brothers, and we can come together to work together to make a better place for everybody. He is very conciliatory. By 1895, hell is an improvement as far as the Negro is concerned. He is totally away from that. So the fascinating piece about his life and his work is how does he make that shift? How does he make the change? And he does it by drawing on, of course, his black faith, drawing on the folk that he grew up with, drawing on some of the ministers who are ported to him. And of course, being a thinker and being a theologian, or what we now would call a public theologian, he's doing theology in the public. And he's criticizing and he's rereading his Bible and he's growing, and he's leaving these nuggets of wisdom for all of us to share. So I can just go on with Turner. Turner was just a remarkable figure. He saw slavery, the Civil War, all those battles, Reconstruction became part of the Georgia State legislature. And then, of course, we've seen post-Reconstruction and even the turn of the century before he passes away.

SPEAKER_00 27:54

Wow. So he occupied multiple spaces, the religious, the church, and politics. And so that's very interesting. The first African-American chaplain, a state legislator, and also a bishop in the AME church. I am ordained AME. I'm an itinerant elder in African Methodism. And to become ordained, I remember getting asked the question by Bishop Norris: who were the four horsemen? And Henry McNeil Turner is one of them. But talk to us who is influencing Turner to become all the things that you mentioned. And then also who is influenced by Turner after his passing and contemporary scholarship and even religious leaders.

Women’s Influence And AME Legacy

SPEAKER_02 28:41

Oh, wow. Turner has in Florence, it starts, and this is what I talk about in the book or in The Forgotten Prophet. It starts at the feet of his grandmother. The reason why Turner was such a great storyteller or a great preacher, even, was the fact that his grandmother used to sit him out on the porch and talk about stories. And that's when he learned, as family law told it, that Turner's grandfather was an African king. And he was caught up in the slave trade. And when they brought him to America and found out that he was this African king, he could not be enslaved because you, quote, could not enslave royal blood or some law with things. That story stayed with Turner. Turner told that story, I don't know, maybe 200, 300 times throughout his life. It stayed with him because it helped him understand, going back to what you said earlier about not starting here, that there is an African past where we were kings and queens. There was an African past where there was some notoriety to my name. And Turner always fell back on that. The second influencer of Turner, especially early on, believe it or not, were women. And the women who were in his church that helped him preach, helped him write. He is one of the things I love about Turner is that he just didn't keep that to himself. He will write about women who helped him with his sermon and sermon preparation, the English language, and all of those things early on in his ministry. Mrs. Hardin, I believe her name was, when she passed away, he writes this beautiful obituary of her in the Christian Recorder. And by the way, shout out to the AME Church and the Christian Recorder newspaper. Had it not been for the, we wouldn't know half of what we know about 19th-century black church life and about black church period and just black people and black communities, had it not been for the Christian Recorder newspaper. So thank you for that. I always like to shout out my AME sisters and brothers.

SPEAKER_00 30:53

And shout out to John Thomas. My good friend John Thomas for sharing that publication forward.

SPEAKER_02 30:59

So Turner is influenced then. And of course, Daniel Payne was a big influence. He always looked up to Payne, even when Payne didn't really want him to be too involved in politics or gotten a little bit too radical for Bishop Payne, he still looked up to him. And last but not least, influences early on that helped Turner is some of the earlier enslaved preachers that he heard. He said that old man Sankey, for instance, I think that was one of the preachers that he said, old man Sankey can outpreach anybody today. He has preached circles around folk today. He was really in touch with spirit and in tune to what's really going on. So Turner was one of those preachers that talked about the spirit a lot, that you had to be in the spirit to proclaim the word of God. And he said that those enslaved preachers did just that because of their condition, but they still preach with them and vigor. Those are some of his influencers. Who he influenced? A whole bunch of one of the ones that he really looked up to in his older age was another one of your bishops, Reverdy Ransom. He thought Reveredy Ransom and what he was doing eventually would do in Chicago with the Institutional Church, AME. Institutional Church was Jeff also. He thought that some of the bishops who came after him were not as radical as Turner might have been, but he still influenced them a whole lot. He influenced a lot of your AME counterparts in Africa. And I think the theology we talk about today, I think one of the more contemporary figures who has gone on to be with the ancestors, of course, is James Cole, and some of the scholarship now that AME ministers and all of us do, with his whole God is a Negro concept, or I like to just say his proclamation.

SPEAKER_00 33:02

Before we get to know how is the Negro, can we believe it that Turner was influenced by women? Yes. Yes, I can believe it.

SPEAKER_02 33:13

Known too, because Turner talked about that. That's why we know about it today. He wrote about that. He didn't keep it to himself. Yeah.

God Is A Negro: Meaning Now

SPEAKER_00 33:22

Yeah, and feel free to say more about that. The Amy Church was one of the first denominations to elect and consecrate a woman to bishop. Bishop Basti McKenzie being the first elected and consecrated bishop in the AME Church, also my soror. And we have women, a very active and robust women in ministry. In fact, a lot of bishops aren't elected to this day without the support of women in ministry. Women are a strong force in the AME church. We aren't often or always given the reciprocity that we deserve. And that's not just in the church. We can look broadly in society as well. Black women being one of the most civically engaged and active voting bloc. And yet we are underrepresented in many offices, if not all areas of government. Likewise, in the church, we are the primary stakeholders, instrumental historically and currently in electing our leaders, but there's just a small space reserved for us to actually lead the church, not only at the episcopal level, but also first churches and the denomination and the connection.

SPEAKER_02 34:58

I think, first of all, on issues of gender, I think the way that Turner, the trajectory where Turner was going, today he will be more when he ordained Sarah Hughes in 1885, ordained her as an elder, and she had already been preaching all around North Carolina. Everybody recognized her gifts and abilities. He was laying hands on folk and did the same thing to her that he did to all those men. When the other bishops rescinded the ordination, he left it alone. He didn't do it anymore. He kept on writing pronouncements about women and that they should be able, the priest that they should be able to be ordained and all of that. But he never, he didn't push it. I think today, if he was living, he would be really on that side of empowering women in ministry full stop. Full stop. Same thing with gender and I think the way that Turner is going and it's there, of course, we don't know, but I think if you take a liberationist position in your theology, in your scholarship, and anything really, you are open to things. You have to be, because you understand that I am not totally free until you are totally free. So I think Turner would have been one of the leading bishops as it relates to gender and sexuality as well. As far as what's going on now and with the other bishops, I unequivocally know, I think, what he would say. It would be almost the same thing he was saying during the 1890s and during the 1900s when he and the bishops would go at it in the newspaper. Turner was very pessimistic about America during that time. He didn't think America was living up to its value and could not live up to its value. That's why he's promoting immigration. He was like, let's get out of here. Which, by the way, is a full-stop work stoppage. We go, we out. I always ask people. Just think about for a moment if the one million or two million people that Turner said was needed to go to Africa and to eventually work with Africans. It was at first, like everybody else, let us go and help out the Africans. But he really realized after this trip to Africa that they're pretty good.

Abolition As Faith And Practice

SPEAKER_00 37:32

They got a whole lot going on. We actually want to work with them. Absolutely. Pan-Africanist movement is important. And so tell me, you know, because of the pro-black agenda and the pro-African repatriating back to Africa agenda of Henry McNeil Turner, talk to us about the significance of the proclamation that you mentioned, that God is a Negro. Now we know Jacqueline Grant, decades later, argues that God is a black woman. We know James Cohn says God is on the side of the oppressed and that Jesus is black. And these traditions are predating to a proclamation that is coming way before through the mouth of Bishop Henry McNeil Turner, who argues that God is a Negro. What does this declaration mean today in this current political climate with a God of white supremacy running rampant and this idea of white Christian nationalism? Talk to us about this declaration of God as a negro.

SPEAKER_02 38:33

I think it can represent two polar opposites of opinions. First of all, of course, God is a Negro, as Turner mentions in his writing when he talked about God being a Negro, that nobody, and he's really talking about people of Christian faith, if you cannot see, if you cannot imagine God looking like you or being like you, in features and all of that, then there's no, that's what he literally said. There is no hope for people who cannot see God as themselves. Because therefore you are nullifying you being made in the image of God. So his argument, everybody from time immorial, he said, everybody knew that or understood that God was, that God was, they were made in the image of God, that God was like them. And so that's important because if you understand that you are made in the image of God, then you can carry yourself in different ways. You can do this work, you can stand and be truthful to the faith. So, yes, that is important, and that's still important today because if God is a Negro or if God is black, then God is not the white supremacist God that is running rampant today. But I'm gonna flip side of that. The little piece that I did a while back as well, too, that if the be on the theodicy side, the William Jones side is God a white racist. So if God, well no, if God is a Negro, the question may be, is God Uncle Ruckus? Is God if God okay?

SPEAKER_01 40:23

If I can say God is a Negro or God is black, why is it that it seems like God really, really sometimes, Lord, come on now? You you don't seem like you really kind of like who you are.

SPEAKER_00 40:36

Well, let me push back on this. Let me push back on it. Um is the claim that God is a Negro, is that exclusionary? Is it literal? Is it figurative? Is it symbolic? And is it exclusionary? Is God other things? Is God bigger than language, bigger than social identifiers? Talk to us.

SPEAKER_02 40:57

No, no, you're right. That is actually Turner's point in saying God. He is not saying God is literally a Negro. He is trying, this is a rhetorical trope. He is trying to get people to understand how when you read the God is the Negro text, he even leaves room that God being woman, being other things. So, yes, Turner is is trying at this point with everything is against black folk, all of the teachings, all of religion, all of the pictures, everything, all of them all, what you read in history books is against blackness. The very thing that you must do in the midst of all of that is to believe that you are still loved by God and that you are made in the image of God.

Colored Conventions Movement Explained

SPEAKER_00 41:48

And now I feel like we need to say, take that to Trump. So I it is a very important claim that God is a Negro that is especially freeing, liberating for today, because as you opened up with that history becomes this pigulum of back and forth, right? And we are swinging back in time. And if we are swinging back in time with oppressive tools, then we have to swing back with the tools that we use to fight oppression then. And that are these statements, whether rhetorical or otherwise, that God is a Negro, that God is on the side of the oppressed, that God is a liberator. And it's important for the black church and religious leaders to espouse this liberation theology over and against the agenda of white Christian nationalism and even the evangelical hyper-spiritualizing, the idea that we cannot speak about religion and politics, that we have to be so heavily bound that we are no earthly good. That is a lie. And so we got to tell the truth and shame the devil. And the truth is that religion is political because it was the state that sought to execute Jesus and that Constantine co-opted the religion of Christianity that became a state religion. So religion, particularly Christianity, is deeply political, and Christianity was used to justify the slave recracy, and it continues to be used to weaponize scripture against the undocumented, against black people, against queer people and those who are on the margins. And so this claim that is rhetorical but also political is important for a faith that liberates. And so I hope that our church, from the mouth of its one of its founders, particularly in the AME church, will continue in this prophetic tradition of speaking truth and unpologetically black about who we are and the importance of our image in God who looks. Like us, and how, and I know you want to jump in there, as you are crafting your response. I also invite you to share with us that what how does this make Bishop Turner abolitionist? Right, and what is the importance for abolitionists for the abolition for the black church?

Current Projects, Support, And Closing

SPEAKER_02 44:21

Abolition to abolitionist to me means freedom, liberation, and justice. One of the things that Turner was trying to do when he realized that the big move going back to Africa probably would not happen because of a whole lot of different issues and problems, namely money and chips and all of that. It's not because it was not the will of the people, especially in the South, they were ready to go anywhere. And we see that. One of the things that Turner's rhetoric does, that I think is abolitionist in this way, is that it freed the minds of many folk who really honestly thought that they were literally, not figuratively, but literally inferior to especially white people, and really all people, but mostly white people. And that when you feel like that, you don't feel like doing nothing. You just sit in it. And what Turner did was fire up people to begin to understand that, yeah, I am made in the image of God. I can do all things, I can do these things. And so what I argue in the book is that Turner's immigrationist rhetoric becomes just liberation rhetoric that frees folk to steal away, if you will, in the middle of the night and to move up north. They moved as far as they could in order to find freedom and to find some modicum of decency and respect to their persons and to their family and their kin. I like to think that Turner's immigrationist rhetoric in the last third of his life, the way that he was talking about and critiquing America, pinpoint critiques that we still use today, how he was critiquing folk who adopted the main line embedded theology of his day, including some black preachers and the back and forth that they were going in on. The way that he did all of that, is to me at least, when I study his rhetoric, is an opening freedom, liberation, something akin to what people say that a Robert Terrell would say about an Alchemist later on, and other freedom fighters who help people understand that you are really more than what they say that you are. Matter of fact, you're a whole lot more. You are not what they say that you are. And you need to start believing that and start receiving that for yourself. And a lot of black people did. And that's why a lot of black people liberated themselves even in slavery times, but also liberated themselves or attempted to during those tough and trying times when everything was against them.

SPEAKER_00 47:29

Yeah. Thank you. And that what you're sharing with us also speaks to the power of rhetoric to shift narratives. So I thank you for emphasizing that. As we look to conclude this time together and this important conversation, I want you to pivot and segue into your more recent work. You're writing a book currently that's talking about the 19th century colored convention movement. What is this historical moment and why is it important?

SPEAKER_02 47:58

Well, once again, shout out to the AME Church. Hey, in 1830, at Mother Bemple in Philadelphia, the first color convention was held. Richard Allen, of course, hosted. The color convention had been a movement during the 19th century that predates the abolitionist movement, predates the anti-slavery movement, and gave rise to many of the orators that we know about in the 19th century: Frederick Douglass, Bishop Turner, Francis Ellen Walker Hopper, so on and so on. This colored convention movement is the first sustained movement led and operated by black people in the 19th century. I actually argue that it is the founding understanding of what we now know as, quote, social justice rhetoric. The black rhetorical tradition is birthed out of this. And what I mean by that is, of course, black people have been writing and speaking way before 1830 or 1865, which I dated because that's when black Southerners could actually speak freely because they were emancipated. So this black rhetorical tradition that we now know and understand is kind of burnt out of these color conventions. It is black-owned, black red. These were black spaces and places to talk about politics, to talk about what's going on in the community, what's going on in our churches, and what can we do. It was the first political operation that we had, even before the 15th Amendment, when black men got the right to vote. But even when those votes were suppressed, and really it was all over. And so the point that I'm trying to make with this edited collection and my future writings with the color convention, I want us to go back and read those minutes, those documents, and see what they were doing in these spaces and places in which they met. I'm so thankful that they had secretaries and people collected minutes and they made pamphlets, and the black newspaper were reporting and chronicling what was going on. It was just a movement in and of itself, and I am so excited about this new project. I think I'm gonna do a couple of things with it. And the first, right now, is this entity collection, and then I got one that's coming out just on the Tennessee state cover conventions from 1865 to 1875, and trying to show how the state of Tennessee moved from one of the first states, if not the first state, I think it was the first southern state to grant suffrage to black men. And by 1870, you know, electing a former Confederate general as governor, and by 1875, Tennessee is not known as being anything looking like a progressive state.

SPEAKER_00 51:17

So thank you so much. After the first book on our AME bishop, I think we were ready to give you your deacon ordination. Well, after a second book that's coming out of the mothership, I think you might earn your elder ordination, honorary elder ordination in the I will be honored if I am found worthy of the great AME church. And what I appreciate about the AME Church is that it is impossible to talk about Black history and not mention our bishops and founders. And so I I really appreciate that, as well as our women in ministry, Charina Lee and others. So thank you for keeping that history alive. Well, I'm gonna go into this rapid round of fun questions for you, but first tell us how can people support your work? Give us the titles of your books, how we can purchase it in ways that people can stay connected with you.

SPEAKER_02 52:17

The two turn of the three turn of books now The Forgotten Prophet, Bishop Henry McNeil Turner, and the African-American prophetic tradition. And all these books are widely available. If you just Google them, they'll pop up. My second book, Monograph on Turner, No Future in the Country, The Prophetic Pessimism of Bishop Henry McNeil Turner, that is with Sicker Press. And then there's a third book on the speeches on Bishop Turner. And I think also looking for a publisher to publish some of the writing that we find in the Christian Recorder and other newspapers, which are more what's the word I want to use, jarring, maybe even more entertaining, makes people wonder wow, did he say that back in 1888? Yes, he did. And so we're looking at, you know, doing something like that. But my latest book was The Summer of 2020, George Floyd and the Resurgence of the Black Lives Matter movement. And there might be something, at least something coming out behind that to talk about this period after 2020, kind of leading us up to how we get to this period. But we'll see. Those are, you know, within the context of what we're talking about, or some of the books and writings and stuff like that. You can reach me on social media at A.E. Johnson PhD. All of the handles. Not really on Twitter anymore or X, but Blue Sky, Facebook, Instagram. I'm there. And if you are led by the Spirit, the best way financially to support is just to support our church. Gifts of Life Ministry. Right here in Memphis, Tennessee. If you Google Gifts of Life, you'll see ways to give financially and otherwise. And I've pointed all that back to the church. So thank you. Thank you in advance for all of your support.

SPEAKER_00 54:15

Thank you so much, Dr. Johnson. And also, we would have to get you on our abolition academy so that we could put a course together that is connecting the dots of then and now of our Black leaders, including Turner, through the George Floyd movement, Black Lives Matter movement in this current context. Likewise, we would love to invite you onto our social media platform. And so while people are exiting Twitter, we are also an alternative. You can download the abolitionist sanctuary app and you can apply to become a member on our social platform, which is a sanctuary away from biased algorithms and vicious bots, but we are a group of people who are connected by justice and liberation. And so I invite you to join our social media platform as well. And then the last church announcement I have is when you talk about the work that you're doing, this archival work, it also reminds me of the importance of our churches to digitize our liturgies, our Bible studies, our announcements and programs so that we could continue to transmit our history over and against the state trying to undermine it. So as we go into this rapid round, Dr. Johnson, I'm gonna throw out some words and you give me the first thought that comes in mind. Doesn't have to be a sentence, a phrase, just a thought, a word that comes to mind. You ready?

SPEAKER_02 55:43

Okay, that's gonna get me in trouble. Come on.

SPEAKER_00 55:47

James Cohn Gary Dorian.

SPEAKER_02 55:53

Wow. Henry McNeil Turner Journey.

SPEAKER_01 56:06

Proclamation The Academy, but needed, but needed.

SPEAKER_02 56:22

Yeah, but powerful but needed.

SPEAKER_00 56:36

All right, favorite way to relax.

SPEAKER_02 56:39

Oh wow. Looking at some TV sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 56:43

Beach or mountains.

SPEAKER_02 56:46

Probably the beach.

SPEAKER_00 56:48

Netflix and chill or turnout? The pain.

SPEAKER_02 56:55

Sometimes the turnout is nice. Sometimes Netflix and chill is nice.

SPEAKER_00 57:00

Black history.

SPEAKER_02 57:02

Need it.

SPEAKER_00 57:03

And last and not least, abolitionist Sanctuary.

SPEAKER_01 57:09

Grateful.

SPEAKER_00 57:10

Thank you for joining this conversation on the Abolitionist Sanctuary podcast. Please download and share on all platforms. Again, I am your host, Reverend Dr. Nikia Smith Robert, the founder and executive director of Abolitionist Sanctuary. You can follow us on YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, and download our social media apps. Also email us to join our newsletter. You can enroll in our courses and become certified at abolitionacademy.com. Don't forget to become a member and subscribe to our mailing list at abolitionistsanctuary.org. As we conclude this episode, remember that abolition is not only a practice, but it is a way of life. And for me, abolition is my religion. Let's lead a faith based abolitionist movement together. Dr. Johnson, thank you so much for joining our show.