Juneteenth, Sisterhood, And The Fight For Black Mothers

We celebrate Juneteenth and five years of Abolitionist Sanctuary by telling the truth about how freedom gets reclaimed through sisterhood, legacy, and community care. We name what it takes to protect Black mothers from punishment-first systems and why faith-based abolition has to look like real support, not shame. 

• introducing Reverend Dr Najuma Smith Pollard and Candace Benbow and grounding in faith, abolition, and Black motherhood 
• sharing pronouns, what we’re wearing, and naming our people as a practice of presence 
• catching up on current priorities, creativity, parenting, peace, and joy as survival 
• reflecting on vision boards, courage, and betting on ourselves beyond credentials 
• unpacking what Juneteenth means amid recalling, contradiction, and commodification 
• remembering founding board service and why Black women saying yes matters 
• honoring our mamas, grief, gratitude, and the complexity of Black mother daughter bonds 
• naming the criminalization of Black motherhood and rejecting carceral “solutions” 
• lifting up abolitionist virtues like compassion, care, courage, creativity, and community 
• making the case for training, funding, and building sanctuaries nationwide 

As we close, please download and share on all platforms. You can follow us on YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, and download our social mobile app. Also enroll in our courses at abolitionacademy.com and become certified. Don't forget to become a member and subscribe to our mailing list at abolitionistsctuary.org. 

Transcript

Welcome And Season Finale Context

SPEAKER_04 0:05

Welcome to the Abolitionist Sanctuary Podcast, where we talk faith, abolition, and black motherhood. I am your host, Reverend Dr. Nikia Smith Robert, the founder and executive director of Abolitionist Sanctuary. We are a national coalition leading a faith-based abolitionist movement. Thank you to our audio and visual audiences for joining us on YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, and all streaming platforms. Let's build abolitionist sanctuaries together with this critical and candid conversation for today's episode. Welcome to the Abolitionist Sanctuary Podcast. I am your host, Reverend Dr. Nakia Smith Robert. I am excited to be here for the final episode of season three and also to celebrate not just Juneteenth, but the fifth anniversary of Abolitionist Sanctuary.

Meet The Guests And Their Work

SPEAKER_04 1:09

I am joined today with our guests, the Reverend Dr. Najuma Smith Pollard, as well as Candace Benbo. I would like to give an introduction starting with Reverend Dr. Najuma Smith Pollard, who is an assistant director of community and public engagement with the USC Center for Religion and Civic Culture. Dr. Najuma combines her experience as a pastor and expertise as a community leader to help faith leaders become full partners in the work of social change. Dr. Najuma leads programming for the Cecil Murray Center for Community Engagement, which is focused at and housed at the Center for Religion and Civic Culture. Dr. Najuma is a pastor, motivational speaker, author, life coach, radio personality, and community activist. In 2014, she launched the Word of Encouragement Community Church in Los Angeles. And pursuing her passion to serve others beyond the walls of the church, Dr. Najuma also founded the company Living on Assignment, which is a personal development coaching and consulting firm that helps people live rich and meaningful lives. Dr. Najuma holds a BS in management from Pepperdine University, a Bachelor of Theology degree from the Southern California School of Ministry, an MBA from Woodbury University, and a doctorate in ministry from United Theological Seminary. She is an alumna of the Passing the Mantle Civic Engagement and Community Development Institute at USC, the precursor to the USC Cecil Murray Center's Faith Leadership Institute. I also would like to introduce our guest, Candace Marie Benbone, who is a multi-genre theologian who situates her work at the intersections of beauty, faith, feminism, and culture, giving voice to Black women's shared experiences of healing and journeying toward wellness and wholeness. Reimagining how faith can be a tool of liberation and transformation for women and girls, she challenges Black women to think critically about how they see God, themselves, and the world. Candace has written for various outlets, including Essence Magazine, Glamour Magazine, The Root, The Grio, Vice, Shondeland, Madame Noir, and The Me Too movement. Her first book, Shout Out Red Lip Theology for church girls who consider tithing into the beauty supply store when Sunday morning isn't enough, was released on January 2022 and was selected as an Amazon editor's pick. Candace is also the founder of Zion Hill Media Group, a media boutique that produces messages of hope and healing across various platforms. A member of Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority Incorporated. Candace holds degrees from Tennessee State University, North Carolina Central University, and Duke Divinity School. Join me in welcoming our guests today.

SPEAKER_03 4:19

Hey y'all.

Pronouns, Presence, And Naming Our People

SPEAKER_04 4:30

Before we begin, tell us your pronouns, give us a visual of how you are showing up in this space and who are your people.

SPEAKER_01 4:39

All right. Well, I guess I've been tagged to start us off. So Reverend Juma Smith, Pollard, she, her are my pronouns. I'm showing up today in this denim blue jacket, blue jean jacket with little with a little bit of pink in it. I have my little gold hoops on, which I love, and in my natural little, my little afro today. And my people are Choctaw Indian. My people are Cuban. My people are from Louisiana and Mississippi. My people got a sprinkle of Haitian and a sprinkle of European French. And so those are my people, and we a little bit everything.

SPEAKER_05 5:18

I know that's right. Yeah. Hi everybody, it's Candace. And my pronouns are she, her. I am showing up today. I have on an HBCU then and now t-shirt, which prominently has the Howard University graduation picture of my Sorora and Vice President Kamala Harris. And I got on some diamond study rings. Who are my people? My people come from, they're from South Carolina, Red Clay, Carolina people. Love being everything about being black. And I speak the name of Helen Bimbo. I speak the name of Tommy Lee Bimbo. I speak the name of Bimbo who ground me, the ancestors that ground me in this work, the Bimbo's, the Jacksons, those are my people. And I'm glad that they are in this space with all of our people right now.

SPEAKER_04 6:19

Ashay, Ashay. My pronouns are she, her, and I'm showing up in an abolitionist sanctuary t-shirt. Run to the swag show store and get you one, as well as a black blazer with gold accented buttons, a boho, blonde braids, and some fancy MVP red lip for our guests and her book, Red Lip Theology. And excited to be here. My people are nine siblings that hailed from Williamston, North Carolina to New York City. And a single black mother at the age of 15 who gave birth to my brother, and 10 years later to me, Carol Mercedes Smith. All that I do, I do it for her. So let's jump in.

What We’re Prioritizing Right Now

SPEAKER_04 7:06

I am excited. This yeah, this episode is gonna hit a little different because y'all, my homies. Listen, listen, let's have a good time.

SPEAKER_02 7:23

We're gonna have a good time.

SPEAKER_04 7:24

Let's have a good time. So it's been a minute. You guys, I invited you on this show because you are our inaugural board members. We had many, but I wanted to spend time to talk to you, particularly as this organization represents black women and black mothers. I wanted to have my girls in the room to talk about your experience with Abolish the Sanctuary. But it's been a minute, right? It's been a while. I think you guys served in 2022. And so a lot has happened since then. So if you will, just catch me up. What's been going on in your world? What are you prioritizing these days? What are what is the work that you're doing that your soul must have?

SPEAKER_01 8:08

Yeah, so life is looking good. I right now, you know, I have a 16-year-old who's learning how to drive. He'll be 17 in August, an 11-year-old who has decided she's going to be an astrophysicist at 11 who talks a lot about stuff I have no idea. Like she's always asked me about questions related to the black hole, and I'm clueless. So that's what I'd be like, girl, I don't know. I mommy don't know. So I am actively trying to just you know steer them in the direction that's showing up for them. My son has discovered that he's really good at track, so I'm focusing on like developing a track star and like this scientist, and neither of which am I good at, right? Uh and I have no clue about. So that's what's still that's what my life is looking like day to day. And I also have my nephew who's with me now, he's 22, helping him get direction and get solid on what he wants to do, be have and possess. And the thing that I'm working on prioritizing, I have a lot of books in me that I've been I do, I've self-published a lot of my books in the past, and so I've committed to every month finishing one of my books, like just getting it done. And because I have several projects that just need to get done. So that's actually my priority, and uh, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 9:24

That's amazing, right? Right on, sis. Right on.

SPEAKER_05 9:27

Yeah, what's going on for me? So I have trans, I don't even want to call it a transition. Like it's screenwriting has been something that's super that's always been important to me. Storytelling has been something that I love, yeah, and incredibly grateful for the opportunity to write a narrative film for the National Museum of African American History and Culture. It's their first narrative film that they've done, and so it's called Hush Harbor. We go into production in July, and it's an amazing cast, and some a cast of heavy hitters and producers, and it's just been an amazing opportunity. And so really excited to be able to move in a space that's allowing me to bring woman of theology to Arts and Entertainment, and so there's some other things that are in the pipeline that hopefully season four, I'll be able to come back and share us more broadly, more fully. I am prioritizing girl, me, like the world on fire. And I have like, so I moved back to the south, so I live in Georgia. Being back in the south has grounded me in a way that like I'm just super, super, I'm much more at peace. And when like the world is crazy, I go into my backyard, and so like excited because I'm putting up my hammock for the summer. We finish here, stringing my light, my new lights for the back, cleaning off my grill and my griddle so I can be out there cooking. I'm just really just prioritizing that like everything else around us can and will be chaotic, but what really matters is how we settle the peace within ourselves, yeah. Because and that joy, like I I understand so much more now why the old Saints used to say, There's joy I had the world and give you a world, and so settling in that is my

Sisterhood, Courage, And Manifesting Vision

SPEAKER_05 11:35

priority, and nobody and nothing is gonna take that from me.

SPEAKER_04 11:38

Wow, this is beautiful because having journeyed with each other for so long, we were able to see each other seed these dreams. Yes, I'm getting chills, like just to see it manifest and to hear you guys speak it. I am extremely full, extremely full. So that that thank you, thank you for sharing that. And there's just there's just power and manifestation, but not in isolation and sisterhood. Right, absolutely, that's powerful, and it is because of that sisterhood, because of that community that I had the courage to dream abolitionist sanctuary. And when you guys didn't know what the heck I was thinking about, what it was, what we were doing, you guys signed up and rolled with me and said yes to becoming a founding board member. And that yes still pays dividends today. I have funders, I have investors, I have people who are able to validate the work that we do because they look on our website and they see who was on our founding board. And I hear often you are surrounded by some good people. And because you believed in us and was able to stamp your credibility on this organization, we continue to grow today. So thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 12:55

Thank you. That was a since we're proud of you for pushing.

SPEAKER_05 13:03

You talk about the dream, like sitting five years into this and remembering when you were talking about it, I think that that too often as sisters. I was telling a friend the other day, like, we know how to go get the degrees, like we know how to do all of those things. But sometimes when you have to bet on yourself beyond that, when there's no like curriculum that you gotta follow, no paradigm that you need to follow, and you know that you are getting this piece of paper at the end of it. Like, like sometimes betting on yourself and launching into the deep is where a lot of us struggle. And it's just been exciting to watch you have done that. And we're five years into what is a lifetime of work, and what you've done in five years is not only something that you should be proud of, but you've also helped to seed for other sisters what it looks like to not just have a vision board, but to like live into that vision. So we're just proud of you, girl.

SPEAKER_04 14:11

You are in your oil today. Go ahead, go ahead and make me feel like I'm gonna bust out of tongues one more time. You can and you should. Yo, you can in your prayer closet. You know what? I'm I didn't start going back to church. I didn't really give us a warning. I like to say I'm redeemed and ratchet. I needed to know that you were coming in this space on the redeemed side.

SPEAKER_00 14:39

We can be ratchet too.

SPEAKER_05 14:43

What we got on here, like I literally enjoyed my little ratchet moment of my little song vinegar, pork rhymes, and I was listening to Lotto, so like we can get in that side too.

SPEAKER_04 14:58

No, but it's crazy because abolitionist sanctuary, yes, was birthed from a dissertation, yes, from personal experience, but it was also a group of women one January. We jumped on a call and we had vision boards, we created vision boards, and on that vision board had abolitionist sanctuary. And you are absolutely right that it's it is so easy to study this stuff, right? To keep pushing it back and say, I gotta study more, I gotta get this credential, this degree, and put it on our vision board. But it takes courage, it takes calculated risks to take that deep launch, right? So that launch into the deep to manifest and actually execute. So I appreciate that. I recognize that this is also Juneteenth, and that is the if you look on our incorporation papers, abolitionist sanctuary started on June 19, 2021. And I was very intentional about that because abolition is the story of liberation, and certainly our people were free prior to coming across that transatlantic. And but what I think about those remnant of slaves who were left over in Galvinston, Texas, until 1865, though the Emancipation Proclamation was announced in 1863. I think about the remnant of us that remain today that are still awaiting the fullness of our freedom. An abolition sanctuary wants to live into that, right? How can we be conductors on this new railroad, right? This underground railroad of setting our people free.

Juneteenth As Recall And Reclaiming Joy

SPEAKER_04 16:27

Tell me, what does Juneteenth mean for you guys?

SPEAKER_01 16:31

I look so much. And again, thank you for just creating this space. I feel really honored to be in this conversation with the two of you today. The importance of Juneteenth, I think it's the word that, as I was looking at the questions, the word that kept coming to me was recalling. Like I feel that Juneteenth has us to recall, think, recall our not just the memory of our ancestors and the trauma and the pain and the atrocities, but it's recalling to who we are, right? It's easy, you know, as we all kind of shared in the beginning, like the things that we're prioritizing and working on. And it's easy to get really focused on that and lost sometimes, even in that. You're trying to achieve, you're trying to work, you're trying to build, you're trying to create. And it's easy to get lost in the sauce of that, especially in the systems that we have to navigate. And then there's this Juneteenth moment that brings you back, you know, to who you are. And I'm gonna use our dear friend Dr. Taman, like that homecoming. It brings you back to yourself, it brings you back to the power within, it brings you back to just an authentic self. That's what I appreciate about Juneteenth is the recalling, is the coming back. The other day I was, for those that are not in Los Angeles, an area called Lamert Park where it's a combination of Christianity, Muslim, and then there's a great amount of African spiritual practice that happens in Lamour Park. And so when you go there, you you like you kind of come back to yourself. Like all this corporate stuff that's around, especially if you live in LA, this Hollywood corporate stuff, like that takes a backseat. And you get to come back. So for me, Juneteenth is a recalling, it's a coming back to our ourself, coming back to not just the atrocity, but the power of our ancestors and who they really were and are in us today. So that's what it means to me. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 18:28

Yeah, I've a lot of the same, and honestly, I've had to if and I can say this and share this with y'all, like I've been also wrestling the last few years with what Juneteenth needs to mean, given the commodification of it. The fact that white people get to just be off work, just like that. That just is a rebound. So like this idea, right, that like it is now this like federal holiday. Yeah, I think Trump still let it be a federal holiday. I don't know, but like this idea that it's now like nationally recognized reminds me of just the what it means to live in to be black in America, which is this complication, right? Of like there's really no place that belongs to us, with the exception of places that we carve out ourselves, right? And so like Juneteenth has now become like what does it mean for me to craft space where all of the blackest foods I can do this year is a little different because, and oh yeah, Nikia, I'll be in New York for at a speaking at a conference for on Juneteenth. But as much as excited about being in New York to do that, I'm actually like more excited to come back home and the day after do all of the things that I would have done with my people here on Juneteenth, with just play spades, yeah, fry fish and eat watermelon and red velvet cake and all of the like I just I grew up celebrating and observing Juneteenth. However, I was not aware just of how what traditions rooted in Galveston folks had. And so, like in these last few years, learning that like they prioritize red foods and red drinks and like those kind of things matter to me because I also think that like there's something in Juneteenth about legacy that is resonating with me because I feel like we are raising unfortunately generations that don't value legacy as much anymore. And so, what does it look like for us to say, like, no, like this day matters for all of its complications, for all of its contradictions, for all of the ways white folk got get off work? Like, this day matters, and we've got to figure out how to reclaim it so that we can be the community and be the joy that has been the community and the joy that has sustained us at every iteration of Black life in America.

SPEAKER_04 21:18

Yeah. That's really good. And it helps to readjust our compass as an organization that was conceived on this day on Juneteenth. And thank you both for contextualizing the conversation and the story and history of Juneteenth and its importance for our inception.

Why We Said Yes To The Board

SPEAKER_04 21:36

And I would like to shift to your tenure on the board. What attracted you to say yes to this crazy idea of abolitionist sanctuary? And what do you remember about where we are, where we were as an organization during your tenure?

SPEAKER_01 21:51

Oh, that's a great question. So, first of all, what attracted me is that you're my sister friend. Yeah, you can boss me to go with you to the moon. I'd be like, girl, what's happening? We leaving. I don't what time are we leaving? What time you my Capricorn sister? You could have said we are getting on the ship and going to the moon. Girl, let's go.

SPEAKER_04 22:09

So for those of you who don't know, Dr. You and I have the same birthday. We're January 18th babies.

SPEAKER_01 22:16

Yes, but but what but in addition to that, and I don't even know if I well, I think you and I talked about this. You know, I was raised in Santa Monica from kindergarten on up to high school into my first few years of college at Santa Monica City College. I that word abolition was not a word that they taught in the Santa Monica school district. I mean I these are there there are words and there are things. Juneteenth, I did not actually learn until I was out of high school in my first years of college, being exposed to different things because I was making different friends, new friends. And so for me, it was also an opportunity for me to learn and to engage something that I learned much later in life was so important to being a black woman and raising black sons and a family in America. And so it was so it was it was the opportunity to be a part of something that I was unfamiliar with for the first half of my life and even into adulthood, there were, you know, just some things I just didn't know about because I wasn't exposed to them. And these are not things that I was abolition, abolitionist thought, all that none of that was anything that I was raised with as it relates to like academic training or language. And so I was very, just very anxious to be a part of that because I had no previous exposure or experience. And I really wanted to be a part of that in addition to supporting my sister. And and over the years of doing community work in Los Angeles, I've learned that there's some abolitionists in me. You know what I'm saying? But I had to learn that I didn't, that's not what I would have called it because that's not the language I was raised with. But but in connecting with that part of myself, and then as an adult, learning more about my family's history and connecting with that is what just drew me to to being a part.

SPEAKER_04 24:06

Yeah. Thank you, sis. I appreciate the love. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 24:09

Yeah. What Reverend O'Druma said, I'm gonna call you Gigi. You asked me it's gonna be a yes. And I think that I think that we don't say that enough and let that be a full stop. That like when black women ask black women to to show up for each other and it's a yes, like that in and of itself is enough. And so I didn't need another justification or another reason. One because I trust you and I love you and and believe in you. So it was already that was it. I will also say I learned a lot from you because I was very much uh, oh, I'm an abolitionist, but some of you on very much that, like I was very much that it was like, okay, you want me to be on this, I'm gonna be on it because I love you, but Some they need to be, they need to be there. So like I knew that this is gonna be as much of a learning opportunity for and growing opportunity for me, but then the other part that I think you don't really get enough credit for, and I hope that changes, is your advocacy for black motherhood, and particularly for mothers who are either justice impacted or have the potential to be that. And I think that like the that that space of vulnerability where too often, and I mean, I think I think we know this, like all three of us know this, that too often, particularly in womaness spaces, particularly in spaces where black women have ascended to a certain level of education, a certain level of access, a certain level of privilege, a certain level of wealth, they can forget that one, they may have come from a family of sisters who don't have that, or two, that they're still a generation of sisters who don't, who don't have that access, who don't have that education, and are vulnerable to these systems. And you have been somebody who in every way possible has always been like, no matter where I go, I'm not forgetting them. And so I think that's a part of the Abalus Sanctuary that really one was closest to my heart. But then I also think, like I said, it's the part of your work that people really don't amplify enough. I think that we have so many of us have taken our marching orders from you in that space, and so many of us follow you there. And so for me, like those first years of really watching you prioritize those kinds of sisters in a space where they're not that they're not prioritized, and to see you say, like, as they are, without trying to clean up anything, they are holy and they deserve every bit of advocacy, every bit of intervention, and every bit of support from black women and black community, like that. I will remember those moments, and I'm really grateful to be there for that.

SPEAKER_04 27:44

Absolutely. Yep, you're messing me up. Wow, she gotta receive on I I'm stuck. I can end the interview now. I don't even know where to go from this.

SPEAKER_00 27:56

Thank you. I receive it, just receive it, see.

SPEAKER_05 28:00

Yeah, you got, I mean, I think it's just like sometimes just like it's dope to be able to sit back five years and be like, oh, wow, I did this thing, but I think it's also important for you to hear, like, yeah, while you were doing this thing, we were also watching you. And I think that like I am more struck now about the the ways that some sometimes black working class black women, black women who are who are the most vulnerable get discarded. And even with just like with my work and creative projects and the other advocacy things that I do, I think that like I'm always trying to figure out, all right, how do I hold, how do I hold space for them as them? And how do I, how do I not tell a story that feels like it's a caricature? And I go back to you. Like you have been a model of that for like, no, like these are sisters who we can't leave them, we can't, and they're not, and they're not objects of study. You see what I'm saying? Like, I think that like we came from a place and we come from academic worlds where black women can be objects of study for black women. And one of the things that you did with abolitionist sanctuary is say, like, no, like these are they and we are them, right? And like, like, what does it look like for us to prioritize their care? What does it look like for us to prioritize their safety? And I think like in these, as you look back, like yeah, you get you get to say, like, I did that, and as you and you get to say, like, you get to hear us say you have been on the forefront of championing women that unfortunately a discourse that's devoted to black women often sidelines, and your work has included them back in very meaningful ways. So, like, yeah, like you get to do that with that. What you doing?

SPEAKER_04 30:12

I'm telling the producer to take us out.

SPEAKER_00 30:14

We you need a moment to shando shape. You need a moment to shando shape. I promise you, I don't got nothing. Let throw all the questions out.

SPEAKER_05 30:28

So let me tell you, I don't even know why you came with like I looked at that email and I was like, why are you coming with this? Like, I don't even I was like, why did she do it?

SPEAKER_04 30:39

I'm about to mute Candace Mike because she is in whatever oil she is on right now.

SPEAKER_01 30:49

It's real, and I think what's important, Dr. Nikia, is you have to receive that. Yes, and it's hard. And I know, I know it's hard for you. I know I can see it's like, what do I do? Receive it. See, that's part of the work, right? Is that you have to receive and embrace what is being said because not only is it true, not only is it true, but this is the work that you do beyond the the establishment of app. This is how you show up. And I just you have to risk you have to embody, you have to receive it.

SPEAKER_04 31:22

I wish you could hear my words on the inside. I'm over here like this is some bull. We had hijacked. Right, and they read you. Thank you. Thank you. I receive that, and I appreciate the ways in which you guys are seeing me and recognizing the work of abolitionist sanctuary and the ways in which you have been a part of

Our Mothers And What They Gave Us

SPEAKER_04 31:54

it. Motherhood is something that is special to all of us, and so let's talk about our mamas, right? Because that is really that's that's what drives the work that we do. Candace, you've been very transparent about your mother. Najuma, you recently posted something. You said, I usually don't post my mom, but there was a breakthrough there. Let's talk about, let's lift up those narratives and why that is important to the work that we're doing.

SPEAKER_01 32:21

Yeah, I mean, my mother stands all of five three, maybe, but she is a force to be reckoned with my whole life. You know, when I had little boyfriends and stuff in high school, they were afraid of Beverly Smith because she didn't play, she didn't throw no punches, and she still don't. She is fierce, she is straightforward, she don't spare nothing, but she is loving, she is kind, she believes in the right thing. My mother, you know, in her younger years was part of the LA chapter of the Black Panthers, and so I grew up with some of that energy. I wasn't in the space, of course, I wasn't born yet, but that energy came with my mother. But that's also how my grandmother was. My grandmother and my mother are the two most prominent female figures in my life. But my mother now is a practicing trouble witness, she has been for a very long time. So she ain't never been to my church, she ain't never been to no church I've ever passed her, she ain't never heard me preach, and that's okay. That's fine. We have a great love and respect for each other's differences in that space. But as far as where the fight in me comes in, and you know, the tenacity and the drive, that's all Beverly Smith. You know, the determination, the independence sometimes, which can be a fault, that all is Beverly Smith. And so to watch her now at 80, almost 83, you know, she's just you know, dancing with my daughter, having overcome, you know, she had a terrible car accident that put her in a wheelchair and pins and all that, and she overcame that. And so that's just indicative of who she's always been, just a fighter. And she's not a political person, but in private conversations, you know exactly where she stands, and she continues to stand for black folks. She just doesn't do politics because, as you'll witness, that's not what never necessarily her focus, but she is absolutely all about her black family, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 34:16

Shout out to Beverly Smith.

SPEAKER_06 34:18

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 34:26

Wow. And I was just like, and I and it was so funny because I said after that, I said, well, then I want to go and do as much healing work as possible. I want to respect her in everything that I do. Mama, it's so funny though, because I realize and I've always said that my work hinges on this belief that I have that sometimes the most difficult relationship that black women navigate is the relationship with their mamas because they're because they're trying to negotiate what it means to be the woman that they're becoming versus the daughter that either they think their mother wants or their mama has been very clear that they need to be. And sometimes it's not always congruent. And like my mama and I, our fiercest conversations were around theology and politics and sex. And she will always be like, a lady doesn't talk about these things in public. And I'm like, girl, that is not even raising. It's so funny because I think often black women, particularly like free-thinking black women, want to raise these free-thinking black girls, and then when you become what they raise, they be like, now wait a minute, like you're a little too free. And so, like, I think that that was my mom that she was just like, girl, if I had to do again, I would have gave this freedom a bit of parameters, and but I am who I am because of her, and it's so funny because after I had about I had a few years because she passed in 2015, and then my grandmother passed in 2022, and so I had that stretch of time with just my grandma, and I saw where she got it from, like that that fire, that fire was theirs and was my grandmama's that my mama figured out how to tamper a little bit for public consumption, and then I just came and was like, let's just pour gasoline on this joker, right? And like that was my grandmother, and I also to to the point of like to the point of even just like the the cute the creation of abolitionist sanctuary and just like the way that we are able to dream differently than they were. Like, I remember when my grandma was like, I would have loved to have been a teacher, but I had a baby early and I needed to focus on family. And she was like, Your you and your mama got to do things that I only dreamed I could do, and then I didn't even know how to dream this was even possible. And and so I realized sometimes when we say things like we're our ancestors' wildest dreams, that's not true because they didn't even, they couldn't even conceive of being like, and that's some of our ancestors who lived in our lifetimes, right? And it's I think that when we talk about black mamas and we talk about black motherhood, like what does it look like to achieve beyond what they even could conceptualize for themselves, and that like their ceiling becomes what we normalize for a new generation of girls and and daughters and nieces, and like and I'll say this in close, like what has been on my heart, like hurting it, is being here and seeing the way that particularly reproduced reproductive rights have been rolled back, and then like I was telling my cousin, I said, it's wild that that grandmama died with more bodily autonomy than your six-year-old daughter has, right? And like, what does that even mean for the kind of fight and the work that we have to do? That same fight and spirit that's in Miss Beverly, that's in Helen, my grandma, that's in Nakia's mama, that's in my mama, Deborah, that fight we have to bring even more to bear. That like it's cute to be like, yeah, like this is a generation, like we keep seeing generations beyond ourselves and all that, but what are they inheriting? And and I think that's the part of like when I think about all the fights that me and my mama had, all the arguments, the ways that I would drive her crazy, the ways that she did not know how to apologize, but would send a PayPal to tell me I had one account. Like, like she, I am able to be me because of her. I'm able to think about those kinds of things because she made me think about those things and she made me read books when I didn't want to read them. And like, and I'm I'm grateful in ways that didn't always know to be grateful. Yeah, yeah, I'm grateful.

SPEAKER_04 39:36

Yeah, that is, I think that aptly describes my relationship with my we were freaking frat, right? Inseparable, always together, but boy, did we go at it. And and this is also why there's something sacred about Black motherhood. And motherhood isn't something that's only assigned by biological children, but the ways in which we nurture and care for communities, which is why with Abolition Sanctuary, we're trying to fund a documentary that is highlighting the survival stories of community mothers, church mothers, and carceral mothers. But the community mothers is really important, right? Because it's recognizing that not all mothers have to have biological children, but there are mothers who are nurturing and are acting as surrogates and so

Criminalizing Black Motherhood And Survival

SPEAKER_04 40:23

forth. But we fight for black mothers because black mothers dream, right? And we dream beyond our circumstance, beyond intergenerational barriers. We dream, but when there's a carceral system, right, that is seeking to rob us of those dreams just because we are trying to actualize them by making a way out of no way, that's a crisis, right? It's a critical problem for our communities. Talk to us about your views on the criminalization of Black motherhood and our survival strategies and how that is critical for our communities, for our democracy, and even salvation, right? The ways in which when black mothers dream, it saves lives, right?

SPEAKER_01 41:07

Yeah. Oh, so I'm gonna start this way. I did a lot of things my mother never did. I made a lot of mistakes my mother never made. And a couple of those mistakes put me in jail for a short period of time. And what I appreciate in the mistakes that I made, my mother didn't judge me. She stood right by me because she understood I was doing the best that I could, right? And I think what we don't have the what I try to do when I talk with young mothers now and work with, I have a couple of mentees who are mothers, is to show up for them in that non-judgmental way. Like hear their stories, hear their narrative, be like, all right, girl, let's just figure it out. Because that's how my mama showed up for me. You know what I'm saying? Like, I remember when I called her, I was like, Mommy, you gotta go pick up Daniel because I'm in jail. And she's like, Okay, where's he at? And then it was like, we'll talk about why you're in jail later. And so I try to tell I try to show up that way for young women, especially mothers now. I have a commitment to a few, like I said, a few mentees who are mothers that anything they need, they can call me for, they can, and we're gonna figure it out because the because because we are navigating a different set of rules as black mothers. I am very clear about that. And you know, parenting is different for me now with Dory and Missouri, they're much younger. When I had Daniel, I was in my early 20s, and I wasn't only that was it not information I did not have, I was also healing from trauma of sexual assault and all that abuse and all that. But like the ways in which the system was set up, I was like, oh, it's a difference. Like, and experiencing that firsthand, oh, there's a difference. And so I don't even know if I'm answering the question, but but I felt it, I saw it, I experienced it, and I'm grateful that I have my mother who didn't judge me, who was there for me. And there were a lot of things she couldn't solve for me because we had this great difference in how we saw life and the world, you me as a Christian, her as a Jehovah's Witness. However, she was always there for me, and I tried to do that for young women at the same time helping them understand how to navigate these systems because they are not, it's they're not created equal. It doesn't, and it doesn't matter. Money almost money doesn't matter, fame doesn't matter, celebrity doesn't matter. The system is it is it is set up to demonize, it is set up to tear down, it is set up set up to harm. And so I just try to do that in the work that I do, but also with my mentees in this one on one space. I try to be there. And I hope I answered the question, but that's just what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_04 43:54

That's really good. You you answered it. That was really good. Thank you. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 44:00

Really interesting because right now I'm working on a creative project that really looks at how the child support system leaves black mothers very increasingly vulnerable.

SPEAKER_03 44:14

Wow.

SPEAKER_05 44:15

And how they have to, this group of women make a very drastic decision to for their children. And when I was talking to one of the producers, and I said, I don't want, I said the the antagonist here isn't even the fathers, but the antagonist here is the system. Like it needs to be very clear that that the system is not designed to care for black mothers because the system hates that black, that that black birthing people exist to create to create a nation of people that that still endure to create that this that these systems despise that a black mama can choose to love, right? Like even the worst of mothers, there is something about their children that will always find them endearing, that will always have that one memory of a good time that they hold on to, and that one memory seeds a hope that systems have long wanted to root out and to destroy. And what does that mean to be put into ethic and into practice? Right? It means that I'm gonna hear you and I'm gonna tell you first thing I say is I love you. You did what you had to do with the set of choices and options that you had. Now it is very clear that this choice was not the most optimal, right? So let's figure out how we're gonna move and how we're gonna adjust and what we are going to do beyond this moment. But I think that's the kind of love, that's the kind of care I remember telling one of my cousins there will never be a point in your life where you do not have me as support. Absolutely. There will never be a time in your life where you feel like the older women in your family don't have your back because you are right and you are a young mom. No that not only can you call me in the midst of anything, your kids can call me in the midst of anything, and also to be the cousin that when somebody says something, I'm gonna defend it and be like, Well, I mean, we wasn't around when you was doing what you was doing, so we don't know, right? You know, and it's and it's like kind of like even doing that in church to be like who like who you talking to? It's like you're talking to her like that, and I think that like that kind of like putting when you put your body on the line in that way, um, because it's not just these systems that make black mamas feel, particularly black single mothers, working class and poor black single mothers, it's not just these systems that make them feel that make them question their worth and their value. They feeling that stuff in their own families and in their own community and their churches and in their churches, and like when you stand up and be like, we what we not gonna do is that, and if you're gonna do it in front of me, like what we are signaling to them is that you matter, you have value, and I refuse to let anybody tell you otherwise. But yeah, like that's the kind of fierce advocacy that we gotta have. Yeah. Thank you both.

SPEAKER_04 48:21

And you are poignantly capturing the mission of Avalish the Sanctuary, right? And the ethics that Katie Geneva Canon lays out for us, right? What society constitutes as a vice for black women, it has been virtue. And so what we're doing at Avalista Sanctuary is though society is criminalizing the survival strategies of black mothers and constructing it as deviant. What we see is their survival strategies as a source of moral integrity and even salvation because they respond compassionately when we call from prison, right? And ask no questions, because they are not condemning, right? And so there are some virtues that are coming out of black mothers that are instructive for upending or dismantling the systems that are stacked up against us and designed to make our survival nearly impossible in the first place, right?

SPEAKER_01 49:14

If I may, can I share a quick story? I think which speaks to what you're talking about. When I was pastoring at St. James Amy Church, St. James at the time was located right off of Figueroa. For those that are not familiar with Figueroa, Figueroa is the stroll in South LA. And, you know, we we had a ministry that worked with the young ladies that would often pass by the church because we were only one block off of Figueroa. One of our members, her sister was often, or not her sister, but her cousin was often on Figueroa. And I remember one Sunday she came to church, and after church, they brought her in my office and she was in tears and crying, and you know, I was trying to understand what was going on. And her cousin was telling me that, you know, she got us in trouble and you know, she struggles with alcoholism. And I just remember the young girl saying to me, she said, they're trying to put me in jail. I don't need jail, I need help. And I think that is emotional about that. That and that girl, and so I said, you know what, sis, we're gonna get you some help. And we did everything we could, and we she did not end up going to jail. We got her into a program, but I think that is what you're saying. Like, our work is to get these mamas help. They don't need to be incarcerated. That girl didn't need no incarceration, she needed help, she need help with her addiction, need help with whatever happened to her that got her on the street, that got her addicted, she need help with her children, and I think that is a part of this work, is like making sure we are the help, you know, the helpers that God has sent to help these mamas out. Young, the young ones, yes, the older ones, even too. But that just that to me has always been the story that reminds me of where my focus is. I don't need to go to jail. She said, I don't need you, I need help. And I think that's what drives me also.

SPEAKER_04 50:58

But I just wanted to share that story because I think that's a part of doing a really great story, and that is what makes word of encouragement church and abolitionist sanctuary, because you are doing the work of shifting away from punishment and condemnation towards the positive abolitionist virtues of compassion, care, creativity, courage, and community in ways that centers the wellness and wholeness of black mothers.

Help Not Jail And Abolitionist Virtues

SPEAKER_04 51:24

My final question before we go to this rapid round is if you could share with someone in your network or someone who you don't know at all, why you think they should support abolitionist sanctuary's mission, what would you say to help us to become a fully funded and sustainable organization for the next five years and beyond?

SPEAKER_01 51:45

What I would say number one is the training that comes with Abolitionist Sanctuary is a training that is not readily available, but it needs to be widespread. And so that would be one. But number two, I believe that abolitionist Sanctuary will help all of us not only do the work, but also to heal, heal the ways in which even black folks have bought into a carceral system and process for black mothers and black families, black bodies in general, right? Help to pull us out of that. And so, in supporting that work, we're creating sanctuaries and space for that conversation. So we may not see the full shift in our lifetime or even the next few years, but in time, the work will shift the tide. And I do believe it can shift the tide nationwide. And so those are my two main reasons why individuals should support abolitionist sanctuary.

SPEAKER_04 52:47

Thank you, Candace.

SPEAKER_05 52:49

Yeah, I think the for me, the main reason that someone should support abolitionist sanctuary and it needs to become a fully funded space, a fully funded agency, is because we need each other now more than we have ever needed each other before. And what abolitionist sanctuary has been able to do is to not only challenge the way that we think about systems, but to lovingly push us to question how in our own ways we may embody and justify those systems that create harm for people that we love and for people that we do that we live for and we do this work for. It is a unique organization that is doing a work that not only isn't found in a lot of spaces, but it's doing a work that really is relevant not only to the moment, but it is a honor to the generations before, and it's a gift to the ones that's coming beyond us and coming ahead of us. And so I'm excited about one, its future, but I'm really excited about what it can do and will do as more people continue to partner and to we're in a moment where financially so it into dreams is what's needed more than we need prayer, absolutely. But as my grandmama, who was the president of her pastors aid for 30 years, would say sometimes I need you to pray with that pocketbook. Oh, that's right. We need the abolitionist sanctuary to we need those kinds of prayers because the work, the training, the advocacy, as these systems continue to intensify, then we need more sanctuaries and more spaces that have been equipped and adequately trained to meet what to meet with force what these systems are doing forcefully to our kin. Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 55:07

I appreciate that. And listen, while you are supporting abolitionist sanctuary, make sure you look and support Zion Hill Media Group, which is uh founded by Candace Benbo and Wake Up and Win. That is the initiative of Reverend Dr. Najuma. And I'm gonna take us out with this rapid

Why Support Abolitionist Sanctuary

SPEAKER_04 55:28

round. I did not give this to you in advance. We did. So when I say these words, I want you to just give me one word of what comes to mind. This time, Candace, you go first. Dr. Najuma, you go second. Okay, Nicki Minaj.

SPEAKER_05 55:43

Crazy.

SPEAKER_01 55:47

Am I giving my word too? Yes, Jill. Chris Brown. Why?

SPEAKER_04 55:56

Expensive tickets. New York Knicks, champions. I know that's right. The same. Juneteenth.

SPEAKER_05 56:08

Freedom. Watermelon.

SPEAKER_04 56:11

Red Listen.

SPEAKER_01 56:13

Everything. I learned it from Candace Bimbo. Wake up and win. Joy.

SPEAKER_05 56:26

We still winning. Winning. Black mothers. Salvation. Phenomenal. Love. Essential. More. The church.

SPEAKER_04 56:51

Favorite meal to cook.

SPEAKER_05 56:56

Pig feet, pig feet, potato salad, and green beans.

SPEAKER_04 56:59

I know you lying. That's not what you cooked when I was down there, but all right. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 57:09

I did because you went and ate it, but it's my favorite thing to cook.

SPEAKER_01 57:15

My daughter loves a grilled steak. So grilled steak.

SPEAKER_04 57:18

Favorite church song?

SPEAKER_01 57:21

Great is that faithfulness. It's hasten to the throne. That's not what I love the Lord. I love the Lord. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 57:28

Favorite color?

SPEAKER_05 57:30

Pink.

SPEAKER_04 57:36

I ain't gonna say, I ain't gonna say that. I believe that between that. Favorite thing to do, read snowboarding. Biggest pet peeve.

SPEAKER_05 57:47

When people go down the wrong aisle driving in the Walmart parking lot, the arrow is going up from the I hate when people do that around the Rose Bowl.

SPEAKER_04 57:56

You be trying to walk around the rose bowl. People always walking in the wrong direction. I hate that. Why do we have arrows? Why do we have arrows? Basically, I was gonna wear a t-shirt that says if you're reading this sign, you're walking in the wrong direction.

SPEAKER_00 58:09

You should read that. That's a good sign. That's a good sign. You should do that.

SPEAKER_03 58:12

You should. I want that.

SPEAKER_01 58:14

Yeah, pet. I'm drop. What's my pet? I think people don't get it like slow.

SPEAKER_04 58:21

Yeah, yeah. Greatest hope.

SPEAKER_05 58:28

There's some of this stuff I'll see in my lifetime that I get to meet my great-grandchildren.

SPEAKER_01 58:35

I have grandchildren, but I want to meet at least one of my great-grandchildren. I live to see one of them.

SPEAKER_04 58:40

Yeah, I like that. Turn up or Netflix and chill. It depends.

SPEAKER_01 58:47

It depends. It depends. It really does depend. Even though I like a good turn up. I think turn up. I think turn up. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 58:55

I think I I'm always I'm always choose a turn up because I can Netflix and chill in a heartbeat.

SPEAKER_00 59:02

I do. I am. I will pick a turn up. Yeah. Y'all ready for this one? What was it? What was it? Did she say PIP? Yeah. She left the screen.

SPEAKER_04 59:21

No. The next one is abolitionist sanctuary. Abolitionist sanctuary. It's our last one. The men's pride.

Rapid Round And Closing Call

SPEAKER_05 59:30

Excellence.

SPEAKER_04 59:32

Thank you for joining this conversation. Abolitionist Sanctuary podcast. As we close, please download and share on all platforms. Again, I am your host, Reverend Dr. Nakia Smith Robert, the founder and executive director of Abolitionist Sanctuary. You can follow us on YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, and download our social mobile app. Also enroll in our courses at abolitionacademy.com and become certified. Don't forget to become a member and subscribe to our mailing list at abolitionistsctuary.org. And as we conclude this episode, remember that abolition is not only a practice, but it is a way of life. And for me, abolitionist by religion. Let's lead a faith based abolitionist movement together. Dr. Najuma and Candace, thank you so much for being on the show.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:23

We appreciate you. Love you, sis. Thank you, sis.