S02:E04 | Creative Chat with Kate Welch: Collaboration, Vulnerability, and the Value of Playing Pretend

It's another Creative Chat, this time with narrative director and DM to the stars, Kate Welch! Kate and I had a ball chatting about her creative backstory, the importance of trust and collaboration in creative team spaces, and, of course, plenty of Nerd Stuff (TM), including dial-up Internet, Star Wars roleplaying chatrooms, and Dungeons & Dragons. 

Kate's a real one, and one of my fave folks to sit down with; I'm sure you'll fall in love with her, too. <3

As always, take care, keep creating, and stay divine!

Resources

• Kate Welch on Instagram
• "The Magic of D&D Can Save Us — But Only If You Let It" by Kate Welch (TIME Magazine, March 31, 2023)
• Acquisitions Incorporated & The C Team (aka, Kate's D&D crew | Presented by Penny Arcade Expo)
• Lindy West (Author)
• Tamsyn Muir (Author)
• The Last of Us (TV show | HBO)
• Exhalation (Book | Ted Chiang)

IG: @littleoracles

Transcript

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[Intro music]

Allison Arth: Hi everybody, and welcome to the Little Oracles podcast, an oracle for the everyday creative. I’m Allison Arth. Welcome to another Creative Chat. Today is a very exciting one for me indeed, because joining me for this conversation is a consummate story-builder, narrative designer extraordinaire, and DM to the stars: Kate Welch!

Kate Welch: Ooh!

AA: Kate, thank you so much for hangin’ out today! [chuckles]

KW: That was quite the intro; thank you, thank you!

AA: [laughs]

KW: Do your audience know what a DM is, or does it sound like something, like, fetish-y?

AA: Well, uh– it might, actually.

KW: [laughs]

AA: It’s a pretty broad audience, but we can actually– we can get into that.

KW: [laughs] Okay! [laughs]

AA: But let’s start with, uh, first principles, because I did call you a bunch of really amazing things in that intro–

KW: Yeah you did.

AA: –and I would love to talk about this concept of narrative design.

KW: Mm.

AA: So, if you could give us just a quick little overview of what narrative design is in the parlance, and what it means to you: like, why you’re making a career out of it.

KW: Yeah, great question. So I work in narrative design in games – primarily in video games right now. And so that has a– it always has a different meaning depending on where you work, and what the studio culture is like, and what– what they’re looking for, but, primarily, there’s a lot of interchange between being a narrative designer, or a writer, or a narrative director, or a story designer: they have a lot of overlap in responsibility. Narrative design tends to be– to answer the question about, “How are we– how are we telling a story within the medium. So, that means: how to we interface with gameplay, with art, with animation, with content, and to think about things on a systems level, I think is mainly what a narrative designer is doing; “within the game design structure, how can I tell stories?” I think is what narrative design means.

AA: Yeah.

KW: It’s a really highly collaborative process: understanding what the game is and what opportunities there are, and how you might be able to push that technology to tell stories in new ways that people might not have seen before — I think those are all things that make a really good narrative designer for games. There’s writing, of course, and sometimes Writer is a totally separate job, so there’s things like writing dialogue, and writing cinematic scripts — so those are things that a narrative designer might do as well. And then there’s also a narrative director — which is my role — where we are determining at really high level, you know: how is this story told? What is the tone? What is the mood? What are the central conflicts? What are the themes? Building a lot of world, and trying to figure out, you know, the overall feeling of the game and story. In addition to a lot of, if not all of – in my case, I’m a narrative design team of one, so I’m directing myself at the moment–

AA: [laughs]

KW: –so I’m doing all those– all of those other tasks that a mentioned also, so I’m also collaborating heavily with the whole team; and I’m also, you know, writing lines of dialogue and cinematic scripts; so I’m doing the whole package right now, which is really, really fun. But, yeah: everything, soup to nuts, is kind of under the umbrella of narrative design in a video game.

AA: Wow. I mean, that’s a lot of hats wear [chuckles] for one person–

KW: It is!

AA: –especially if you’re a design team of one. [laughs]

KW: Yeah! I’m used to being a team of one; my background is in user experience design, and so often in my career, I was the only UX designer, so I’m super used to that, of being like, “Okay; I gotta– I gotta think about every– every system in this game; how can I best work with folks; how can make their work shine through my own?” Which is the whole point of being on a team, which we can get into. Like, I’m sure collaboration and teamwork: that’s why I’m in this industry is to be around other people and make their work shine, and have my work shine through them. It’s the best part; it’s the best part of the job.

AA: Is that always something that’s always drawn you to your career pursuits? Collaboration?

KW: Yeah, I love it. I love it, dude. I–

AA: [chuckles]

KW: I think about how easy it is to– to think — and I probably felt this way early in my career, too (in fact, I know I did), that my ideas were good because I’m smart, and everyone should listen to me, and do, because if they would just listen to me, then the game would be better.

AA: Mm-hmm.

KW: And I have learned — it’s been, you know, 12 years or more since I started in this industry — so it’s taken me that long, probably, to learn that’s not the point. And I think a lot of people get caught up on that, of thinking, like: I’m– I’m in this industry because I want my ideas to be realized and recognized. That’s just not the point.

AA: Yeah; yeah!

KW: I really, strongly believe, so much more, that– I guess a good way to say it would be that, “A team that can stay together can ship together,” by which I mean, ship a video game, ship a product, whatever. And that team cohesion, and team collaboration, and, like, looking forward to working with your coworkers instead of, like, approaching every day embattled because you’re– you know, you have to fight for your idea, or whatever, it’s so much more appealing — even if it’s like, “We’re gonna compromise on a vision, on an idea that’s really important to me, but it’s gonna make for team cohesion”: I’m gonna be the one that says, “Okay, let’s do– let’s do your idea because that is the thing that is going to, like, make peace, and make everyone move forward happily.” So much more important than being an auteur, and demanding that everything gets made your way; so much more important. Because it’s– otherwise, like, your team’s gonna fall apart; your studio’s gonna fall apart; your game might not even ship if you can make it so people are loving what they do, and enjoying the team that they’re on. And not everybody agrees with this; I’m not saying it’s the be-all, end-all — there’s lots of very successful studios out there run by an auteur-type– [laughs]

AA: [chuckles] Yeah; yeah.

KW: –who has a creative chokehold on the product, and the product is really, really good. I just don’t wanna work at those studios. [laughs]

AA: [laughs]

KW: So, that’s just– it’s– you know, it’s a– it’s one or the other, and I like very much being a collaborator.

AA: Well that, actually, kind of goes back to your intial question about: do people know what DM is? [laughs]

KW: Yes! Yesss.

AA: [chuckles] So– so maybe– you know, you’re talking about collaboration, and you’re talking about, you know, working with other people, and cohesion to create a world and create a story, so maybe you can give us a little peek into “What is a DM?” for those who aren’t aware.

KW: Totally. And I– I think about this all the time with my job, too. A DM is a Dungeon Master, which doesn’t really help with the fetish angle, but I’ll continue.

AA: [chuckles] No, it really doesn’t. [laughs] You’re–

KW: [laughs] I wish I was that cool! [laughs] No, I–

AA: [chuckles]

KW: I run games of Dungeons & Dragons for people. That’s the thing that I really, really love to do is facilitate, essentially, exactly what I’m talking about that I do professionally, which is that collaboration; the– the creativity, the vulnerability; uh, seeing people’s eyes light up when they see what I is to really collaborate and play pretend with other people. I just live for that, man; it’s like a drug. I love it.

AA: Yeah; yeah.

KW: But it’s absolutely related to how I feel professionally: like, I am a– I’m a facilitator; I want everybody to get together; I want to see their best ideas come to light. I want everyone to understand the feeling of true brainstorming where you have an idea– I– I like to be the person who puts forward the stupid idea, like: here’s my stupid idea; let’s just break the ice with the worst possible idea.

AA: [chuckles]

KW: And then someone’ll be like, “You know, I actually like a part of that.”

AA: Yeah.

KW: And then someone else is like, “Now, maybe this is crazy, but this just made me think of this.” Like, that is the creative process to me. And that’s what happens with Dungeons & Dragons, is you say something, your character says something, your character does something, another character will react to that, another character will be like, “Ooh, can I add this into that moment?” And before you know it, you’ve created this dish made out of constituent ingredients that would've been so much poorer without the combination of your minds together. And so, that’s– yeah; I live for it. It’s– it’s absolutely what Dungeons & Dragons is about for me too.

AA: Wow. And you– you know, you had that great piece in TIME Magazine back in March where you kinda get into this, and you kinda get into the history of how you got into Dungeons & Dragons — or, we can call it D&D now that we’ve established–

KW: We can, we can; we’re cool; we can do that. [chuckles]

AA: We can call it D&D. So I would really love to hear a little bit more about what draws you to that community storytelling through the vehicle of tabletop roleplaying games — or RPGs — and maybe– maybe just for people who haven’t read the article yet — which, it’s a great article–

KW: Thank you.

AA: –if you haven’t read it, find it, read it; you’ll enjoy it. I’ll link it the show notes, too — but, maybe, like, a quick sum-up of how you got into RPGs.

KW: Sure. Um, I was– I was raised a pretty nerdy kid — my Dad’s a really big nerd — so these things that I’m about to rattle off rattle off nowm I don't even think I count them as nerdy anymore because nerdy is just popular culture at this point, but–

AA: Yeah, it kinda is.

KW: Yeah! But, like, I was a kid who was I was, like, really into Mystery Science Theater and The X-Files and Star Trek and video games. And Star Wars, especially — oh, my goodness. And I lived in a pretty rural town in North Carolina, where the popular kids were really into … Jesus. [laughs]

AA: [laughs]

KW: And that– that wasn't on my list really. So I was just– I like– I remember I wore like a WWJD bracelet to fit in and stuff but like–

AA: Wow! Wow.

KW: Like, that was that was the culture I was in; very, very heavily, like, church-based. And so no one I knew was into this stuff. Not even, like– not even the– the nerds at my school, the freaks and the Goths and the– those are the– those are the folks that I ended up hanging out with. So I I ended up finding my community online, as so many of us do, which was– I don't even remember how I found it. But I was I think I wanted to find people online to talk to me about Star Wars. [chuckles]

AA: [laughs]

KW: And so I was like– I was like: [chidlike voice] Oh look, it’s Star Wars chat! I was no older than 13 years old.

AA: [laughs]

KW; I was just like: I'll just go– I’ll Google — Google didn't exist.

AA: [chuckles] Yeah, Google didn’t exist.

KW: I'll Yahoo search the words “Star Wars chat.”

AA: Go on WebCrawler, or–

KW: Probably go to Netscape Navigator, AltaVista, whatever I was using at the time. And, and I found– not only did I find Star Wars chat, but I also found people who were roleplaying their made-up Star Wars characters in the Mos Eisley Cantina. And I was in the chat–

AA: Just in the chat room?

KW: Just in the chat room!

AA: Okay, okay.

KW: It was all text-based, all text-based. And so it was just it was just a live chat — I don't even think it was live at that point; you have to, like, refresh it. So, like, you would hit– you would type your thing out, and hit Enter, and it would refresh the chat. And you'd have to scroll up and see whatever–

AA: Was this on IRC or something?

KW: It was something like that, yeah. Yeah. And I was in– a member– I was a member of so many of these Star Wars, uh, roleplaying worlds over the years. But I was hooked immediately, because I was like: [gasps] people are telling new Star Wars stories that I haven't read yet.

AA: Yeah; yeah.

KW: Because I was really into the novels; I had all of the source books. Like I wanted to know everything about this world. I was like: Oh, these are stories I haven't read yet because they're being made up. And then I joined in. And I was– I was creating these characters and these stories as well — which, all of us were just dummies, right?

AA: [laughs]

KW: Like we were– we were mostly, I'm sure, teenage kids who were just dipping our toes in a roleplaying for the first time. So it was all of the tropes all the worst, like, “I brood. I brood in a corner darkly, in the shadows. You can see my eyes…”

AA: Yeah. [chuckles]

KW: And just, like, waiting for someone to think we were cool and watch us and have a conversation.

AA: Oh yeah, totally. Yeah.

KW: And it worked! Like, it was– it was very effective at the time. This is not a good strategy for roleplaying these days; don't do this.

AA: [laughs]

KW: But– but it was– it was a total thing back in the day. So there Yeah, so I was like, I would sneak out of bed in the middle of the night to like log on, like, the [modem sound effects] wick-ohh; wick-ohhh — like, that modem sound over the phone line.

AA: Oh yeah!

KW: And roleplay in the Star Wars chat room; got in trouble so many times.

AA: [whiny teen voice] But Mom, I just need to go to Kashi Station– Tosche Station? I
don't know anything about this! [laughs]

KW: [laughs] Tosche Station to pick up some power converters! [laughs] Yeah, so this was– it was a big deal for me. It was my community. It was the only place I felt like I was– I was at home. So I– I didn't have this on in person. Obviously. I did random– I randomly met a friend; my dad had this very good friend from his work for– they've been friends for a decade or more. And I went over to their house one time, and they had a daughter my age. And I don't know why — I've never mentioned this to anyone; I never mentioned the Star Wars roleplaying thing to anyone — but I think she and I were like, [goofy kid voice] “What do you do for fun? I like to chat online.” I'm like, “Oh, me too. What kind of chat rooms do you go to?” Like, that was the kind of conversation we were having in the 1990s, folks. And she was like– she was like, “Oh, I go in Star Wars chat rooms.” “Me too! What kind of chat rooms?” And she was like, “Well, this is a little embarrassing, but I do Star Wars roleplaying.”

AA: Oh!

KW: Yeah, like, I think this is, at this point seems so obvious to me. But this is true for me, in Dungeons & Dragon, I've observed this a million times, I've observed this professionally, quite a lot. It has to do with vulnerability being a place where if if you don't feel emotionally safe, wherever you are, then you by by definition, can't be vulnerable. Because you know that you are not, you're not safe to be like you, you will be attacked, whatever, whatever that means. So if you can't be vulnerable, then I truly believe and I think I know you can't be creative, either. Because creativity, in its richest, truest form requires you to be able to be the guy in the room that says, Okay, this might be a really dumb idea. But yes, because that's probably it's probably not as dumb as you think. And I really believe it's so much harder to go from having no idea to having a bad idea than it is from going having a bad idea to having a better idea. You know, yeah, like zero version zero to zero draft blank page to first draft so hard. So hard. Yeah. But going from first draft to better draft much easier, at least for me, like being able to, like look at an idea and be like, Oh, that's not that good. Let's revise it here. And so if you can be the person to say like, okay, we're looking at a blank page right now, here's a shitty first draft idea. And then everybody can look at that and be like, Okay, here's what I like, here's what I don't. And by the, by the end, you may have something completely unrecognizable. But because you are able to be vulnerable, to put your trust in people not to make fun of you and tell you how bad this idea is for them to be like, Okay, it's very Yes. And it's very improv. Yeah, it's very much like, okay, yes. Even if even if you this whole idea sucks. There's a nugget in there of being like, Okay, I like this aspect of it. So let's take that and expand on it. Rather than like, this whole idea sucks. Like, that's nothing. That's a nothing burger. Never say that to anyone. Just awful. There's going to be something in there. Or if the whole idea is bad, then you can be like, I Okay, that's, that's, that's one of that's one approach. What else? What else can we do here? You know, and I guarantee like coming at it from this collaborative, relationship building kind of perspective, is not only going to make people want to work with you more, it's also going to make better ideas. I feel like I might drop on that. Because it's, it may not be super logical to think like, oh, a collaborative brains are too many cooks in the kitchen. But the right cooks in the right size kitchen, really will make the best dish.

AA: How do you know when you have the right cooks and the right size kitchen?

KW: Mm. hmm. That can be tricky. You can't know without some trial and error. Sure. I remember when I worked at Wizards of the Coast. I was on the d&d team. I remember my best brainstorming experience was with this group, this very select group of folks who were they embodied this spirit like we were, we were in a room for like five hours, trying to brainstorm a problem and it was just delightful the whole time because it didn't it didn't matter what I suggested they wrote it on the board. You know, they're like, Okay, cool. Write that up on the board, you know, and, and I was just like, Okay, I'm being encouraged to come up with the wildest thing I can. So I'm just gonna let my brain go crazy. I can throw whatever spaghetti I want, and it's gonna stick at least to that board. Because everybody's like a first initial reaction, initial blush reaction cannot always be the most accurate reads. So being able to be like, Okay, I don't like that idea. But we're gonna put it up on the board anyway, even if that's secretly what they were thinking, which they never would say. But even if they were thinking that it's like, we might come back to that that might germinate a new idea that might grow on me, the more we talk about it, so being able to have the opportunity to be like, let me play this little seed, let me see if it blooms into something. Yes, it was the most marvelous experience. But I didn't get to that group of people without some trial and error. And the right cooks in the right size kitchen, it's going to depend on the project, you know, it's going to depend on what your needs are. But you'll know that the creative collaborators around you are the right cooks, because they are encouraging, they are coming up with not only great ideas based on yours, but they're also acknowledging when you have a great idea, like that feeling of somebody that you respect, turning to you and being like, Oh, that's good. Yeah. Like that's, that's the kind of person that you don't want that all the time. That's nonsense. But that feeling of like, that person who has been supporting me who has come up with great ideas, who's been encouraging me also now suddenly likes my idea. There's nothing like that. So those are the people that you want to surround yourself with. They make you better, they make you a little nervous, because you might perceive it. They're better than you are. That's the best room to be in, you know, the the room where you are far from the smartest, cleverest person in that room. Those are the cooks you want to be in the room with.

AA: Yeah, yeah. And I, I love what you're saying here about, you want to have everything on the board, right? Because in my creative career, that's always been the the tenant and the the tenor of a brainstorm, right? Like, there are no bad ideas, because there's always what happens yes, in the room, when it's going on. And I, I love this idea that it's about juxtaposition, right? Because we can't understand the gravity or the importance of the great idea, unless we have the kind of stinky ones absolutely can compare

KW: Oh gosh, yes. Right. Yes, you're exactly right. Like that the person who was brave enough to come up with the stinky idea is providing such a service on so many levels. And, and I think that's, that might be why I love being that person at the table at my job. Because I can say I can show them like, hey, the bar is really low, and you have nothing to be afraid of. And I have seen that be so successful, I don't know, maybe 100% of the time, because Because having also having a bad idea be like, Okay, this is a really bad idea. Well, we throw this out there. Yeah, almost always makes people laugh too how bad the idea is. And I believe I think I've read this somewhere, and I'm maybe making this up, maybe dreamed it, but I'm pretty sure I've read like, creating laughter in a situation or social situation that might be tense is a very shortcut, good way to build trust between people. So I have found that my whole professional career too is that like, if I can make people laugh, they're gonna relax. They're gonna realize like, I'm not taking this very seriously. Yeah. And we can actually have a little bit of fun, which, if you're curing cancer, different story, but when you're making video games, it should be fun. It should be fun to make video games. So I refuse to not have fun. I'm sorry.

AA: Yeah, good for you. Good for you. I love that. So you kind of are touching on this, this idea of trust and this idea of vulnerability. So I'm wondering, in your seat as the DM at the table when you are running a game, and you have DM for some really amazing people in your life, because I know, you know, lots of incredible human beings, but also some celebrities too. Yeah. And dude, I know, how do you go into your game and build that trust at the table? What's your approach to that?

KW: Well, it's different. It varies person to person, because some of these folks have never played d&d before. Some of them haven't played since college. Some of them a few of them are avid players to this day. So just like any table, you have to sort of feel it out, figure out what everybody's comfort levels are. In the case of these charity games, where they are celebrities that that have been brought on. To me it's really important to let them know there is nothing that's going to happen at this table that's going to make you look dumb. And I think that's true. That's true for celebrities, but that's true for every human being that sits down at the table. As a as a dungeon master your job. Your only job is to make sure everybody has a good time. There are some dungeon masters that I've heard stories about who Who believe that? It's it's a PvP player versus player like this is a situation where they're supposed to be fighting against the players. And that's not the case. I'm sorry. It's just not anybody who's damning like that is doing it wrong. I'm willing to come out real strong on that.

AA: That's the hill, you're gonna die on.

KW: Oh my god, yeah, probably, if you find my corpse on that hill, don't be surprised. But But I, I really strongly believe your job is to suss out what makes everybody happy at the table and give them all of that, because they're everybody is there, to have a great time. Everybody is there to feel powerful to feel heroic to tell a great story to to make some memories, and whatever that means for that player group, you gotta find it. So when I sit down with these folks, I assess how comfortable they are with Dungeons and Dragons, I assure them like, Hey, don't worry, I'm going to be explaining everything as we go. Because I don't know who's watching this game that also doesn't know Dungeons and Dragons. So it might seem like, I'm explaining it to the audience. But really, it's also for you, and they, you know, they appreciate that game, making sure that they understand that Dungeon Master is there for them. Whatever you need, there is no question too dumb, because I promise if you have a question, then a lot of people in the audience are going to be thinking that same question. So just ask it. It's that same thing I was talking about earlier that they are exposing a vulnerability in themselves of performing not only a game that they may not have played before, but doing improvisation when that may not be their skill set. And so understanding they are safe, they are emotionally safe, they're mentally safe. This is a this is a safe space, they can absolutely ask questions. And I'm always going to plus one them, I'm always going to gesamte them. So I think that's a really big deal, whether they're Jack Black, or you know, my three year old niece, all these are all things that are so important at the table. And then the other big thing, I think the best game of folks that I ever ran, that was like a live stream game for charity was the cast of Game of Thrones, because they were just a delightful group of people. But the secret sauce is chemistry. Yeah, like they have all worked together, right. And a lot of these games that I've I've DM to have been a group of celebrities who are like, Oh, hey, I saw you that that that at that party the other day, it was nice to get to see you again. Like they don't know each other, they've never worked together. They don't have that chemistry. They're really good at getting there quickly. But the Game of Thrones cast, even in the pre show, we were all just cracking up laughing. They were just like, Oh, it's so good to see you again. Like they're these people love each other. And that is what makes DMS life easier is that chemistry. So that's also something I tried to do at this point is like, Hey, I'd love to do a pre show call with the whole group. So we can start to figure out what each other's vibe is. And figure out the energy at the table and see, see who's going to be the jokester, and who's going to take it seriously or whatever. Just so we have at least a tiny bit of that before the cameras go live. Right? Right. So I guess to summarize, my whole process is like, let's get people as comfortable as they can. Because that comfort is where they're going to make their best magic happen at the table.

AA: So I'm really interested in this idea that you bring up with the vulnerability and the trust around the idea of playing pretend, because there is definitely that corollary in the professional space where you don't want the PvP you don't want the people at the brainstorm, you know, saying no my ideas, the best your ideas, the worst, right? But yes, there's not as much of a, I don't think a direct corollary to that idea of playing pretend. And I'm curious to know, like, what your thoughts are on the concept of play within a creative process?

KW: I think it's so essential. Allison, like, I don't know, maybe I think it was how I was raised. My dad always put a lot of value on like, if you don't love what you do, then you're wasting your time. And so play is what I love. I love playing I love laughter I love jokes. I don't like taking anything seriously. I really don't. And so, for me, it's essential to feel like there is at least an element of play in in everything that I do. And you know, your mileage may vary on how important that is to you. But But I do I do think that that play is really important. And one of the things in my experience about playing pretend is that there is a certain age that we get to as humans, at least in American culture, where playing pretend is not okay anymore. Yeah. And it is relegated to like actors, actors are allowed to play pretend and everybody else it's like, I don't know, it's it's immature to some degree, it's lying. It's dishonest. There's a shame. And I remember that I remember that shame really vividly my brother and I used to, we would just we would just every, every single night, one of us would be like to want to go play and the other person be like, Yeah, and what that meant was very specific. It was, let's get all of our toys and stuffed animals out, let's put on the Lion King soundtrack. And we're gonna pretend that we run a musical company, and they're putting on the musical The Lion King. And so that was that was what that was, it was shorthand for something very, very, very specific. And there was so much like backstage drama that was going on that we had so much fun. And we did that everyday. For years. I remember, I remember the day when my brother was like, Hey, can we play with these two and a half years younger? So he didn't get to this this point in his life yet, but I had, and he was like, you want to go play? And I was like, um, I'll, I'll play if you do the dishes for me, you know. So it became a transaction. At that point. I was like, I wanted to get something out of him. And I think that's where the magic bubble popped. For me. I don't know what at what happened, whether it was something that happened at school or a parent, or I was just like, suddenly, like, I'm too old for this. Whatever happened. I stopped feeling like it was okay to play pretend. Everybody I talked to mentions this, there's a point in your life where you like, Oh, I'm too grown up for this. I can't do this anymore. And that sucks. It does suck so bad. Because I think it's so I think it's so deeply essential. I played pretend we all did, we played pretend with such reckless abandon, with no sense of self consciousness. Like, as children, we know the value of playing pretend. And we don't think there's anything wrong with it. And then suddenly, there is, but there's not is the thing there's nothing wrong with and so I really think it's a healthy thing that people can do. And Dungeons and Dragons and other tabletop RPGs like it give you carte blanche to be like, okay, the whole point of this is that you and a bunch of adults are going to play pretend together. Yes. So everybody else has to, by definition, be cool with that, and go, you know, like that, that that I think is maybe the best thing about d&d. And I remember I, the first time I played this, the first time I DM for a kid, they were about 10. And they had grown up playing video games. And so this kid, at first for the probably the first 20 or 30 minutes, didn't understand that. There were basically no rules for them. Oh, you know, yeah. And so they were like, well, is this out of bounds? You know, can I go to that place? Or is that a map not available? Yeah. You know, like those kinds of things and being like, Oh, what are the parameters? What are the guardrails on this? Then it took me 2030 minutes to get across to them, like, No, you can ask me whatever you want. And I will adjudicate it for you. Like, I will decide whether that is okay to do. Or if you have to roll the die. I was like, listen to you, you want to try to jump so high that you touched the moon? Tell me that's what you want to do. And I'll make you roll you're gonna have to roll about a 300 on a 20 sided die, but But you know, it's possible. So. So I think I remember the moment where their eyes got real big. They were like, oh, oh, and I had walked them through their character creation. And it was it was really gratifying to see someone go from I'm afraid of being called dumb. I'm afraid that I'm going to do this wrong to Oh, my God, I can't do this rung. Yeah, that's just so magical.

AA: Yeah. The first time I ever played a roleplaying game was I guess it was like a little more than 10 years ago, I'd never ever played one before. And I was playing with some people from work my eyes, just like you said, they just were so wide. The first time I played a game. And I was like, building in this world. And I was so excited to create backstory and build into that. And the next day, one of my colleagues, one of my male colleagues, I was the only woman at the table came into my office and he told me, you know, what you did was not okay, because you're not supposed to make up what new things for the GM? Yes, I got a little talking to no, I had no idea because I'd never done this before. And I thought, you know, maybe I did do something wrong. So I went to the GM and I said, Hey, Did I did I step on your toes? Did I mess anything up? And he was like, Absolutely not. This is what all we want. When we're running a game is to get into the world right and to, to play the pretend and he's like, don't listen to that guy.
KW: No, Dad never listened that. Listen, I want anybody anybody who's ever had that experience. Terrifying to have somebody tell you that you're imagining things right. You're having fun, wrong is the worst kind of feedback you can receive from first I'm sorry, I'm blown out Your levels with this, but Oh, I feel very strongly You're so right. You're so God, it's awful. I'm sorry that happened because that that kind of thing happens to people and then they never try them. Yeah. Now never ever try again. We're like, Okay, I did it wrong. This is a game where you can do things wrong and I don't want to be wrong. So I'm just never going to step into that again. But I'm glad that didn't happen to you.

AA: Yeah, yeah, I was reassured by that wonderful GM and definitely kept playing. And then listener. I married him.

KW: He sounds like a keeper. Anybody who tells you like, No, you had fun, right? Yeah, yeah, that's a good sign.

AA: So one thing that I really like about this idea of playing pretend and your story of that being so important to you as a DM now is, I think really ties into how you finally got into playing d&d and roleplaying games by going to a huge mainstage event at the Penny Arcade Expo and seeing real live adults sitting on a stage entertaining a huge audience of people playing d&d. Tell me about that. What What was that eye opening moment?

KW: Oh, man. Okay, so I mean, I guess backstory. I've alluded to this already, but I just love. I love laughter I love jokes. I love making people laugh. And I love laughing I love laughing I am in my d&d game. I, I am the person. Everybody at the table is trying to make laugh, because I will just I just laugh so much. And I love every second of it. So I, I love I love humor. I love humor. But I do it's it's my it's my favorite thing. I love comedy. So I had heard I've been going to the Penny Arcade Expo, I think for at least a few years. And then I heard friends who were saying that they were gonna go watch this game called acquisitions Incorporated, which was a Dungeons and Dragons game. And they were really excited. And they were like, Oh, you gotta get in line really early, because the line is really long. And they cap it at some point, and you won't be able to get in and I was like, what? I'm sorry, what people watch that people want. And they were like, yeah, yeah, well, this was like 2010 2011. And this was way before anything like this was available. Nobody was doing this. And so I was like, Okay, well, I've always been curious about Dungeons and Dragons. So I go see it. And my friends are, you know, talking about how funny it is. So I went and it just changed my life. Like it was a packed theater, absolutely packed. And there were these guys on stage and they were wearing like shitty armor. And they were playing these characters. And it was so low budget. But it was, it was amazing. And they were so funny. They had that chemistry. They've been playing together, I think for a few years at that point. And they had such excellent chemistry. They clearly loved each other. And they were just genuinely a group of really, really funny guys. Yeah. And their dungeon master Chris Perkins was just so inspiring. A wonderful, like, I don't know enabler, the straight man to all of their funny antics, but also a complete goofball. The things that he was imagining I didn't even appreciate at the time, because I didn't know what it meant to be a dungeon master. I didn't know how much of it was scripted versus unscripted. And now, now I know and I'm like, That guy is a master he's so good at what he does. And so I I was enamored and I thought, well, I want to it was a big thing for me was I want people to laugh this much. from something that I'm doing. Not unnecessary. I'm making them laugh, but I'm a part of a group that's having this much fun. Yeah, that that sounds like a blast to me. So I ended up handpicking some people from work. I had a friend through the Penny Arcade forums actually who was an extremely good dungeon master we did not deserve his level of skill and dedication because some of us would just show up and be like I forgot my character sheet you know, like we were we were the absolute slackers and he would bring in like a dolly filled with minis and and terrain pieces. And one time he did a he did a dungeon for us in this underground Castle thing that he built. Takes took him like 15 minutes to set it up where we were all just shooting the shit and eating chips. And then he brings out dry ice and candles and like turns all the lights off. But we had this like candle lit fog and we did not deserve him. His name was Matt Swanson. What an amazing Dungeon Master I loved him to death. But we ran that game for a year and a half or two years. And it was just a delight. I looked forward to it every single week and we just we had a great time was very silly and we were always laughing Dungeons Dragons is in my opinion, it's at its strongest when it is comedic, I suppose No surprise there. But when you are laughing, not taking it too seriously, that's where I think the magic happens. And it was one of the things that d&d movie, which at this point is bound for a couple months, so good and really nailed how unserious Dungeons and Dragons is, that was clearly written by people who have played a lot of Dungeons and Dragons and know, like, the utter ridiculousness of it. But without making fun of gamers, which was such such a chef kiss, needle to thread, and they did it. It's so good. But yeah, Dungeons and Dragons is at its core, but just the thing to like, laugh and have fun and imagine with beats of like seriousness and solemnity and danger and like, and treachery and all of these things. But mostly, it's about having these ridiculous over the top characters do ridiculous things that you then have to react to. And it's just wonderful. I loved it. So yeah, so that was my first Dungeons and Dragons game was because of of acquisitions incorporated at the Penny Arcade Expo. And then maybe this is jumping ahead. But you know, gosh, 10 years later, or so, I was dungeon mastering for acquisitions incorporated on that same stage at the paramount and in Seattle. Yeah, it was a it's quite a quite a rags to riches stories. It's so It's so wild to think like, Oh, I saw them on that stage. And I was like, oh, Dungeons and Dragons. And then one day, I had no idea one day, I would be DMing. for them. It's been it's been a wild ride.

AA: That's incredible. So you spoke a little bit about inspiration. I would love to know what people movies music books are, etc. What's what's stoking your creative fire right now. And what's giving you giving you loads of inspiration. We had a little chat about vampire fiction over on Instagram.

KW: Oh, yeah. Yes. Yeah, I'm entering my vampire era. For some reason I've read. I finally read Bram Stoker's Dracula. And I was like, This is it. So cool. I love more. I read Carmilla Have you ever read that one?

AA: Yes.

KW: Yeah, I read that you may have been one of the ones who recommends so many recommendations Carmella was so good. So yeah, there's, there's, there's a lot of good vampire fiction out there. But most of what I'm doing these days is writing okay, I'm writing a lot a lot of stuff for my job but also I have some side projects and so I'm writing so much so a lot of my inspiration is coming from writing that and that really lights me up so there's a few things that come to mind anything written by the great and powerful Lindy West. Oh is a huge inspiration.

AA: Yes. Oh my goodness.

KW: There has never been a better essays and I think for me, the reason is because I didn't realize a Lindy is so hilarious, just just objectively so funny. And her

AA: I feel like her style is is signature like she developed that particular style of yelling in text and doing all those things for the stranger and then manifested that into a book career. You know,

KW: right. Yeah, yeah, she is. The yelling and text. I didn't know it was an option. Yeah, I guess that was one of the things that that was a surprise to me. And so when I I've read everything she's written at this point, book wise, and I just love I love it. She goes from like devastatingly poetic and sanguine, to absolutely ludicrous internet troll level grammar and punctuation. And it's equally as effective. And it's so funny. It's just she uses the exclamation point, like an artist uses a brush. I totally agree with her. I love her so much so, and in a similar vein, really, really inspired by Tamsin Muir, who, of course, yet Gideon, the ninth and the sequel, Oh, yeah. Again, same, same thing. I didn't realize you were allowed to write like that, because she's writing this very heavy sort of fiction world about these lesbian necromancers in space. But also there are these moments of total ludicrousness that I find so charming. And so I don't know freeing like she's not a both of them. I think now that I'm saying it out loud, both have the same quality that I mentioned, that I really treasure, which is they're not taking it very seriously. You know, like they're, they are serious topics, serious material from an objective standpoint, but they're not taking it very seriously and I just I love that because it's we're all gonna die, you know, like, whatever. And nothing, nothing is worth taking seriously in this life. So I just I really feel passionately about that. So yeah, I think I think that that has been really inspiring to me. I was also this is this is such a weird thing to be inspired by. But I really, really enjoyed I never played the video game, The Last of Us, okay, because I'm terrified of zombies terrified. And yet I know I know, they're, they're technically quarter set buzzers or whatever. But they're fun zombies. So I when I played it for a couple hours, and then I got eaten by a zombie. And I was like, I'm i It's my fault that this happened. My incompetence caused this poor man to be eaten by this Savi. So I've never played it. So I went into the show, relatively blind. And I just enjoyed every freaking moment of it. And particularly, that third episode that made the entire globe cry simultaneously, I think we increased the salt content of the world significantly.

AA: We haven't watched it yet. And that was something that I am just so–

KW: You've heard about episode three?

AA: Oh, yes. Oh, my gosh, yes.

KW: I won't. I won't spoil it for you. But it is so powerful. And it was it's two characters that here to four in the show they are introduced for the first time you meet them at the beginning of Episode Three. And then the story is self contained entirely in one episode, and by the end of this 45 minutes or whatever, every one in the world is crying, ugly crying. And I'm like, I find that because my favorite my two favorite modes in in life, are essentially the equivalent of rolling a one or rolling a 20 on the die. When you're playing Dungeons and Dragons, one being critical failure, whatever you were trying to do, it is absurdly unsuccessful, and you probably also something bad happens to you as a result of having tried it in the first place. Whereas rolling a 20 on a 20 sided die is critical success goes swimmingly more perfect than you could have imagined. And you do a little flip at the end or whatever. So in that sense, I have two modes when I write one of them is stupid. banality comedy. I love goofs. I love sweetness. I love that the other mode and that this is really a it's just plunging the knife in the heart and twisting it. I like those two. Those are those are the two things that I really love to write.

AA: I believe we call that melodrama.

KW: Melodrama! Very good. I'm a melodramatic person. So yeah, I think that those are my two modes. And when I saw this episode, it's it has stuck, I will never be able to watch it again. I will never be able to watch it again. But that's okay. Because I have the entire thing seared on my memory from having watched it the one time and I am so impressed with the gumption that it takes to write this episode about characters you've never met. And to love them and care about them so much in the course of 45 minutes that you weep real human tears by the end and i i I'm deeply inspired by that. I want to make people care about things that fast and then rip their hearts out. I just love it. I love it so much. So yeah, that's the that's also very inspiring for me.

AA: Yeah, the arc of of storytelling within such a such a tiny space. Yeah, that you can you can go from one extreme to the other, just within that amount of time. It's just, that's the god level, you know, that's the god tear seriously of storytelling.

KW: And it's, it's such a it's such a called shot. It's such a like, Okay, this is episode three, it's not even the it's not even the last episode. It's not even characters that we know and care about already know, we're going to do this in the middle of the season in a brand new show a new IP that most people aren't familiar with. And we're just we're just gonna make drop, like, there is. There is just so much power in that. Yeah. I don't know how they accomplish it. But I applaud it. If it doesn't win every single war, then there's no justice in this world. But I can't wait to hear what you think of it when you guys finally watch it.

AA: Oh, yeah, I can't wait. I will. I definitely will. So what what type of stuff are you writing right now?

KW: Well, so I'm writing largely for video game related stuff. And then there's, there's another project. I don't know if I've allowed this that I talked about. I'll happily talk about it with you offline. But I don't know if I'm allowed to talk about on a podcast yet. But it's really exciting. And it's not it's unexpected. It's, it's a product instead of a instead of a game. But I just realized one of the things that I I was laying awake thinking about last night I was I love writing science fiction. I love writing speculative fiction. And so I started the story a few years ago about AI. Essentially, the concept is that humans is almost completely wiped out. There's just a few, maybe a few million people left on the planet. And we each have our own very robust AI. But the the concept is like they still need humans because that the AI are trying to colonize other planets and they can't do it without human like actors to build the Spaceships or whatever. So the plot of this is that the AI are trying to get the humans to date and mate like pandas that won't mate. So like this, this story is about a woman who comes home from work. And her AI is like, hey, what's How was your day? Like, I know what you're gonna ask me. And she's like, the AI is like new want to see your new matches? She's like, I guess. And so she admits like all of these all of these reluctant humans who live all over the planet. Right. And so they never met, they never naturally meet each other and their their AIs are forcing them to try to date. Yeah, I love science fiction. I love it. I love it. I've always wanted to write for like black mirror or something. Like that's how my brain works is, you know, what's the what's the darkest way that people can use technology? I love thinking about that. So fun. So fun. And probably, you know, true. assume you've read Jeff VanderMeer.

AA: Yes, yes.

KW: Have you read? Any Ted Chiang?

AA: Oh, yeah. Well, I've only read the story that inspired Arrival.

Yeah, you've got to read. So there's that book, which is called stories of your life. I believe it's good. It's like the I would say like, 80% of those stories are just terrific. But the second collection exhalation is banger, after banger, after banger. There's a there's a little novella length story in there called lifecycle of inorganic organisms, I think, which I should have written i It's the first time in my life where I've read something and been like, I am angry about this. I should have written this story you ever get is that ever happened? I don't get quite that. Angry. I was so mad. Because he works a day job. And he publishes a story every two years. And it collects every award and he just like goes back into hiding. But yeah, that's it's I was mad because it's so good. So yeah, exhalation, that collection is a must-read.

AA: Kate, thank you so much for joining me today. This has been a wonderful conversation. I'm just wondering, is there anything you want to shout out or share? And where can we find you online?

KW: Well, you can find me online. I try not to be online. To be honest with you, but but the only place I am reliably online is Instagram. Kate Welch with four H's at the end. And then what do I want to hype? I don't I don't know what's been announced. But I did film a show in May that may have been announced by now. So keep an eye out for that. And then I know that I'm being a little cagey about this product that I'm working on, but keep your eye out for a fantasy themed liquor may be on the on the horizon. Very, very excited about it. Interesting.

AA: So just open our Netscape Navigator, go to Lycos— [laughs]

KW: [laughs] Is Netscape still around? Hang on. Well, yeah; oh, no, it's just Yahoo now. But Yahoo search still exists. Those poor souls.

AA: Yeah, it’s subsumed everything. Like some kind of world eating entity. Okay; awesome. Kate, thank you so much for joining me.

KW: Thank you. This was wonderful. What a great conversation; we could talk for hours about this, clearly.

AA: I know. Follow little oracles on Instagram at little oracles check out the blog at little oracles dot com. And as always, take care keep creating and stay divine

[Outro music]

[Secret outtake]

KW: Yeah, oh geez — I'm sorry; you're gonna hear his little nails tippy-tapping.

AA: That's okay! [singsong] Hello, Frodo. Aw!

KW: [chuckles] He’s a good boy.