S02:E09 | Creative Chat with Craig Shipman: On Curiosity, Confidence, and Close-Up Magic

This week’s Creative Chat guest might be my new bestie: Craig Shipman, the fellow behind all the tabletop gaming content coming out of Third Floor Wars, including the luminous and illuminating Tabletop Talk podcast (one of my favorite listens, to be sure).

After guesting on Craig’s show (you can listen to our conversation here), I immediately asked Craig to join me on Little Oracles — and dang: he did not disappoint. We talk about the intersections of creativity, curiosity, and confidence; the music and media Craig’s loving right now; and how a career in close-up magic set Craig up for success in his corporate life and his current hobbies. After you listen, you'll probably want Craig to be your BFF, too.

Enjoy, and, as always, take care, keep creating, and stay divine!

Resources

• Third Floor Wars | Craig's creative output, collected
• Tabletop Talk: Ep 205 | Featuring yours truly, in conversation with Craig
• The Wire | TV series
• Darkest Dungeon 2 | Game website | Published & developed by Red Hook Studios
• Musicians referenced in this episode: Harry Styles, The National, Tool, Ani DiFranco, Billy Joel 

IG: @littleoracles

Transcript

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[Intro music]

Allison Arth: Hi everybody, and welcome to the Little Oracles podcast, an oracle for the everyday creative. I’m Allison Arth. Well, well, well: welcome to another Creative Chat! I am so juiced up for today's conversation, because joining me is someone I truly admire and revere, especially in the conversation podcasting space, and someone that I think I could just talk to for, like, hours on end. [laughs] The fellow behind all the tabletop gaming content coming out of Third Floor Wars, the host of the luminous and illuminating Tabletop Talk podcast, Craig Shipman. Craig, thank you so much for joining me today!

Craig Shipman: Oh, I gotta, like, package you up! Like, this is the best PR in the world! I'm so flattered. [laughs]

AA: [laughs] Oh, just wait! Just wait.

CS: [laughs]  Oh my goodness! Um, so Allison, like I've told you already, but I need to say it on mic, I have been really looking forward to this because, um, I think by the time this drops your episode on my podcast would have dropped.

AA: Excellent.

CS: Um, and so it, uh, I'm sure we'll link to it, but that– that's where I think– like, you and I, like, were tangential. You know, like, kind of knew each other through John, but um, yeah, it was, uh, it was neat for us to, like, connect and like realize, like, holy shit: like, I like you! [laughs]

AA: [laughs] I know! I know, right? No, seriously, this is the thing: I'm– so everyone knows, I'm trying to convince Craig that we're best friends just by saying it over and over and over again. So that's– [laughs]

CS: [chuckles] Oh, we're there.

AA: Yeah, we're there, right? We're best friends. Yeah, that's great. But this– this is really only the second time that we've been talking to each other, 'cause the first time we really got to sit down was when I was a guest on Tabletop Talk.

CS: Yeah; yep. That's funny.

AA: It was– I know! It was just such a great– a great interview and a great conversation that we had. And I, I'm definitely gonna link to Tabletop Talk in the show notes because it is just, seriously, it is, uh, it is a titan of the conversation podcasting genre, in my opinion.

CS: Thank you.

AA: It's– you're just so curious and you listen so well and you, like, have all these interesting pathways to conversation and I– I really think you're one of the best in the biz at that.

CS: Thank you.

AA: So, I'm so glad you're here to talk– to talk about your– your creative journey and– and all of that stuff. And you know, you kind of alluded to the fact that we– we share a little bit of that same DNA in the conversation space.

CS: Yeah.

AA: Certainly talking to creatives about craft and work and creative practice. And to that end, something that we both do on our podcasts is we start off with that, kind of, genesis question; that, like, “How did you get here?,” that creative backstory question.

CS: Mm-hmm.

AA: But with you, I wanna frame it a little bit differently, because— let me just give a little preamble before I do this big reveal, right?

CS: Okay.

AA: So you did, for episode 200, of the Tabletop Talk podcast, you kind of turned the tables a little bit. You went from being the host to being the guest, and you did this great AMA, this Ask me Anything, with all these listener-generated questions about your history and your backstory, and one of the things that I learned during that AMA — which is so great, and everyone should just go listen to it, 'cause you drop these bombs of wisdom like left, right, and center; I'm like dodging them as I'm listening to this podcast–

CS: [laughs]

AA: But the thing I learned about you, is that you used to do magic. Like, not Magic, the card game–

CS: Right. [chuckles]

AA: –but magic-magic, right?

CS: I did.

AA: Like, tricks! Or do you– do you call them illusions? Do you call them illusions, Craig?

CS: Oh, no, no, no. It was– it was straight up, close-up magic–

AA: Okay.

CS: –to be even more specific. So, not getting up on stage, um, no, uh, fancy costumes and big contraptions. It, uh– very intimate. Yeah, so it was like right towards the tail-end of college, coming out of college. I had this wild idea that I wanted to do that for a living, [laughs] and I did it for a year, so–

AA: [laughs] Did you really?

CS: I did!

AA: Like, just walking around the streets and saying, “Hey, you wanna see a trick kid?” [laughs]

CS: [laughs] No, no. What– what had happened is I– I'd found, I'd always, like, as a– as a little kid, I had always enjoyed magic and you know, anytime, you know, I would be able to buy magic tricks, I would get them. And I'd get all those little, you know, crappy magic kits for Christmas and stuff like that.

AA: Right, right.

CS: And it's funny, 'cause you– it's amazing; when you're a kid, you don't know why, you just love it. But as an adult, you look back and it– and you see a lot, right?

AA: Mm-hmm.

CS: So always dabbled– always dabbled with it. And then I was in college and actually went to my first, like, magic store — which are even more rare than gaming stores, right– [chuckles]

AA: [laughs]

CS: –for like, you know, board games and roleplaying games — and had not realized that there was a whole world there.

AA: Yeah.

CS: That there was a history that was, uh, you know, centuries old. And just … books.

AA: Mm-hmm.

CS: So many books. And I– I bought a couple books, and took 'em home. And now I was in my, you know, early twenties, and just going, “You know what this is; this is more than I thought it was.”

AA: Yeah.

CS: It– it– it wasn't just “fool 'em.”

AA: Mm-hmm.

CS: There was an entire, uh, theoretical approach. There was an entire art around it that I really didn't know. So I started reading some of the books, started playing with it. And what I thought was always a dexterity, fast-moving, you know, trick-'em-out type of thing, I realized that this is a multi-layered psychological form of entertainment and– a– and a true art.

AA: Yeah.

CS: And so at the time I was bartending, and so I’d pull out a deck of cards with my regulars bartending.

AA: Oh man, I wish I would've gone to your bar. That would've– you would've gotten big tips from me. [chuckles]

CS: Ohh! It– and I– and I– and it was great, because it was a steakhouse, and the bar was just not busy, because it was just all– people just go there for dinner and leave. And then slowly over time, I had built– built quite a regular business–

AA: Wow.

CS: –where people would come, you know, to see the behind-the-bar magic between making drinks and stuff. But that's where I, like, honed my craft.

AA: This is incredible. [laughs]

CS: [laughs] And then that led to– really the only way to make money, other than getting TV and stuff like that, but the only way to be, like, a journeyman close-up magician was corporate work.

AA: Mmm.

CS: So corporate parties: they hire you to entertain during the Christmas party, to walk around during cocktail hour or, um, even better is when I started getting the trade show business. So, you know, they have trade show booths and they would hire you to be at the front of the booth to draw in the crowd, and then the salespeople would cherry-pick and pull people into the booth and stuff. And– and you'll– I think you'll appreciate this: What I figured out, and this had a lasting thing for me, it was a huge lesson for me, and I'm glad I learned it young, is I can't take what I love and do it for a living.

AA: Mmm.

CS: And I realized that about a year-and-a-half in. I had a gig; I was packing up all my stuff and it– it was all rote at this point.

AA: Right.

CS: I had honed a– honed an act and everything, and I was packing everything up and going, “I don't feel like doing this.” And I was driving to the gig, just not looking forward to it. And I– and it kind of broke my heart a little bit.

AA: Yeah, I bet!

CS: Because I loved it so much.

AA: Yeah.

CS: And making a living out of it had sucked all of that passion, all that curiosity, all that creativity out of it for me. And at that moment, I– I stopped. That was my last gig; went and got a quote-unquote real job; um, and started my, you know, my professional career outside of something like that. And for the rest of my life, there's been different hobbies I've had and people are like, “Oh, wow. You know, have you ever thought of making a living at this?” I'm like, “No.” Because I've– I learned that– that for me — and that's not for everybody, right? — but for me, I had to keep my passions and my love separate from my work.

AA: Mm-hmm.

CS: I have no passion for my work. I have no love for my work, but I do good work — enough that people pay me, to allow me to do what I love.

AA: Right.

CS: And to allow me the freedom and– uh, you know, to seek– follow my passions.

AA: And do you feel like this, uh, this interest in magic and the, kind of, early days of your career: has magic, like, influenced the way that you approach your corporate life, the way you approach your– your creative life now?

CS: Uh, it's where I learned– so yes. On all of those things. So let's talk, uh, creative life first.

AA: Sure; yeah.

CS: It is where I learned to pursue a craft.

AA: Okay.

CS: So, several points growing up, um, I would, and I — and this is– my wife calls this, like, “That’s– that's your deal.”

AA: [laughs]

CS: That's what my wife says. So I'll see something and I'll go: that's cool. I wonder if I could do that.

AA: Mm-hmm.

CS: Right? So I saw a guy playing guitar one time and I was just like: that's cool. I wonder if I can play guitar.

AA: Mm-hmm.

CS: So: got a guitar, taught myself how to play guitar. Was not good at it–

AA: [laughs]

CS: –but I could play enough, you know, to say I can play guitar. See a banjo, same thing: I'm like, banjos are cool; I wonder if I could do that. And back then, I didn't know it, but now being 50-something, I realize that I have a real love for, “I don't know how to do that. And I wanna go through that path.”

AA: Right.

CS: I wanna find out: how do I learn this? And it's even easier now than it was 20 years ago, of course. And I want to practice it and I wanna figure out what I can add to that. And then I wanna find the community and be a part of that community. And you know that, that path. Has happened to me so many times in my life. And the most recent version of that is Third Floor Wars.

AA: Mm-hmm; tell me about that. Yeah; yeah.

CS: I mean, I had always been a– a dork, um–

AA: [laughs]

CS: –always loved games, played roleplaying games in middle school, high school, and a little bit in college. Always played board games, got into mini games, Warhammer 40k and things like that. And same thing: so I was playing some miniature games and, kind of, discovered podcasts — and it was through the hobby, right? — so I was listening to people doing podcasts, and watching people do, uh, what are called battle reports for miniatures. It's almost like the version of actual plays for mini games, where you watch people play Warhammer. And it was the same thing, Allison; it was– I'd watch them and go: that's cool. I wonder if I can do that. And, and this is where the hubris comes in.

AA: [laughs]

CS: I think I could do it better, right? Because I have ideas, right? I have thoughts, you know, things that I'm– that– that are missing.

AA: [chuckles] Uh-huh; uh-huh.

CS: So I bought a bunch of video equipment and, you know, taught myself that, uh, and, you know, started making battle reports, and that was fun. And, you know, I got a little bit of recognition for that. But that was the birth of Third Floor Wars. And then that turned into me listening to podcasts about mini gaming, and I'm like: I wonder if I could do that. So let's start a podcast. And then– and when Covid hit, my interest in mini games died, or went dormant at least. And I found roleplaying games again.

AA: Uh-huh.

CS: And as I was finding all of these roleplaying games, after being away from it for so long — for 20-some-odd years — I was just like, reading, you know, some of the newer games, and I'd be like, I– I need to talk to this person.

AA: Yeah; yeah.

CS: Like, I need to understand how this gets made. Like how do you– how well– how did we get here? You know, what was the journey?

AA: Why do I, I have this amazing thing. Yeah; yeah! [laughs]

CS: Yeah! And so I started interviewing. I found that the– the creator community and the roleplaying, uh, industry is unbelievably generous. I mean–

AA: Isn't it? Yeah.

CS: Oh, like, I– I was having what I consider big names come on my show when I had, like, a hundred listens a month, you know?

AA: Mm-hmm.

CS: And I would be up front; I mean, like, “I have a terrible, tiny podcast. The only copy of your game you will sell is me buying it, and I'm gonna buy it whether you come on or not,” you know? And people were like, “Yeah, Craig, I'll come on.” And I started interviewing people and then that became a whole new world for me. Like, I didn't realize: like, interviewing was its own thing, and, you know, I’ve been spending the last two years perfecting that aspect from a creative standpoint.

AA: Right.

CS: How can I be a great host? How can I be an interview podcast that people say: it's– it– this is not the same thing; there– there's something different happening here”?  But this is what you and I share, and why I think I love your podcast so much.

AA: Thank you.

CS: Is that even though it's focused on tabletop gaming, it's about the creative process, right? That's what I try to unlock. That's what I try to dig into.

AA: Mm-hmm. And you know, there's something here about this interplay — that I keep hearing you, kind of, reference — this interplay of practice and curiosity. And you know, Our season Two theme here on Little Oracles is Play as Practice. And for me, play and curiosity have a very similar, um– they share a similar root, right? They– they come, kind of, from the same place: that process of discovery. And it sounds to me like that's kind of where you sit as a creator. Like, you get curious about something and then you practice it.

CS: A hundred percent. Yeah, a hundred percent. And it's definitely birthed from curiosity. It– it's birthed from, like– so my wife makes fun of me, because there's a pattern. It is: I– I'm astounded by something, like, “Wow, that's amazing! That's cool.” And– and at first it's unobtainable. Like, like, I, you know, how– how can you have a– a YouTube channel? How can you, you know, how can you play a guitar, you know, how can you make a coin disappear or a card, you know, appear under a glass, you know, 10 feet away? Then I go, well, I know one, at least one person could do it, right? [laughs]

AA: [laughs]

CS: So I bet I could figure it out, you know? Then I start digging, and start digging, and then I get, you know, enough curiosity to go: well, you know what, maybe I'll– let me try this. Let's see how hard this really is. And that just tumbles. And another part of this, and this is a– a personality trait, which is good for this process, may not be good for the overall health of me– [laughs]

AA: [chuckles]

CS: –but– but I– I– I'm an introvert, and it's very easy for me to go down a hole.

AA: Mmm.

CS: Which, in the bigger picture, is not the healthiest thing in the world to do, um, and realizing now that, you know, I deal with things like depression and stuff like that, I — and again, going back as an adult and looking — I could chart for you, Allison, parts where I had had really big bouts of depression, and I realized that the way that I was expressing that is finding something, shutting the world off, and just going down there by myself.

AA: Wow.

CS: You know, not seeking out a teacher; like, I– I need to– I need to isolate myself and I need to do this on my own. And whether– and– and what I don't know — and I– this is why I go to therapy every month– [chuckles]

AA: [chuckles]

CS: –is what I don't know is, is it that activity that brings me out of that? Or is it the activity that digs the hole or, you know, where that fits, um–

AA: Right.

CS: And I'm– I'm very blessed to have a partner who is really good at recognizing that and is very good of, like, going, “Craig; Craig!” and shaking me, you know, and preventing that from being a bad thing.

AA: Right. That, uh, that kind of obsession–

CS: Perfect word; yeah.

AA: I know that I fall into that, too, when I want– when I definitely wanna learn something new. It's just– it's like it becomes the thing that you– that's the only thing that you wanna do.

CS: Yep.

AA: And while I haven't personally struggled with depression as kind of a, you know, the Janus-faced–

CS: Yes.

AA: –the creativity, and then you have the– the depression kind of on the other side.

CS: Yep.

AA: I totally relate to that: that moment of, “Oh yeah, that thing: I'm gonna do that, and I'm gonna do it really, really well.”

CS: Mm-hmm. And it keeps a part of my brain very occupied.

AA: Uh-huh, right. Uh-huh.

CS: And– and– and– and allows me, you know, either– again– and again, I don't know whether that's a distraction–

AA: Mm-hmm; mm-hmm.

CS: Or is that, my brain going, “All right, Craig; like, you need to get out of here and, and this is how we're gonna do it.”

AA: Right.

CS: And I don't which one of those things it is.

AA: Keeping you afloat in a way.

CS: Yeah.

AA: Yeah. That is– that's fascinating. I've never really, uh, talked to anyone who's identified it in that way and said that these two things are really, uh, very closely related.

CS: Kind of a downer. [laughs] I didn't mean to go there.

AA: [chuckles] No, no! But I think– I think it's really worth recognizing, right?

CS: Yeah.

AA: Like, part of the creative process can definitely be peaks and valleys, right? And I think that sometimes, there's a lot of, um, a lot of emotional support that creatives need to, kind of, come out of those valleys. And everybody's whole, and everybody has to deal with, you know, what's going on inside their head to make the things that they wanna make. And I think that's critical to say. So thank you, honestly, for making that plain for people listening to this podcast. I– I appreciate that very much.

[Music break]

AA: So I would love to talk a little bit about, um, this concept of play and this concept of story, and creating a story, and I think that there's a very specific way that you do that within the– the magic space, right? Like, you know, you and I talked a little bit about this idea of time misdirection, and I'm just wondering, can you talk a little bit about that as a manifestation of this, you know, practice of magic?

CS: Yeah. And– and– and if it's okay, I'm gonna step back and drill to there if that's okay.

AA: Totally; totally.

CS: To just– to create a little bit more context.

AA: Yeah.

CS: So there's the Will Arnett magician, right, which is–

AA: [showman voice] “A thousand pennies!” [laughs]

CS: [laughs] Exactly! Which is a well-deserved, uh, stereotype because they're all out there. And then you've got the David Blaine, arrogant magician persona.

AA: Yep.

CS: There's a lot of that out there. And I– as I started to dig into this and started finding indie magicians, I realized that the– that there was other ways to do magic. And one of the first things that was important to me is to get rid of the challenge aspect of magic, which is the easiest thing to get into, which is, “Allison, I'm gonna trick the shit outta you.”

AA: Mm-hmm; mm-hmm.

CS: Right? I'm going to fool you, which means that when this is over, I will have– be superior, and you will be the fool. Which is not fun.

AA: No, no. [chuckles]

CS: And when people say they hate magic, that's what they've been exposed to, generally speaking. Obviously I would never go to a different location, which has happened more with mentalism than with close-up magic, which is that “This is real.”

AA: Right.

CS: I would never do that either. But there's people that have gone in that direction, Darren Brown and stuff like that, who pretend like this is an actual thing and that's ridiculous. And it was Teller, of Penn and Teller, that made me realize that there was another way to do this, which was, “I wanna show you something really cool, and we're gonna watch this together.

AA: Okay.

CS: So it's not me on one side, and you on the other side. It's me next to you.

AA: Yeah.

CS: Shoulders touching, and we're both looking at this. And it was really neat for me to create that atmosphere. I learned a lot about people.

AA: Mm-hmm.

CS: Uh, I learned a lot about storytelling — beginning, middle, and ends; first and second, and third acts–

AA: Uh-huh.

CS: And I found incredible joy because, when I first started doing magic, you would finish the thing, you'd go, “How? How? How did you do that? Do– do it again.” Which a lot of magicians take as a compliment, and I didn't. That for me was a failure for me. When I got done, they went, “Oh, wow, okay. That– that was cool.” Then I was like: success, right?

AA: Mm-hmm.

CS: So to do that, I learned a– a lot of things over time. One was getting rid of any sense of confusion. So if, if the story I was telling and what I was presenting wasn't clear, then it wasn't enjoyable. Because even when I create this really, um, cozy atmosphere for magic, if things are confusing, there's gonna, there's always a part of the brain that's going is watching for the trick, right? And if it's confusing, you lose the magic. Whereas if it's crystal clear, that's where the magic happens. And there's an old thing in magic that people talk about all the time, which is people don't have to know how you did the trick, they only need to know when you did the trick.

AA: Uh-huh

CS: And– and it was– it was so profound for me, and there's all kinds of tools for that. One of 'em you hear is called misdirection, which I think is a bad name, because misdirection is actually direction.

AA: [chuckles] Right.

CS: Which is learning not to draw away, but draw to. And that's the, you know, “Don't look at this hand; look at that hand.”

AA: Uh-huh.

CS: Well, the way to do that is, is to make this hand more attractive, right? So that the other hand is forgotten. And that's direction; that's not misdirection. But there was a really neat concept that I came across, and as I was reading and learning all of these tricks, and it was this idea of time misdirection. And what that is, is creating distance —  temporal distance — between the work, which is where the trick is happening, and then the reveal.

AA: Right.

CS: And what timeless direction does is, by putting that temporal distance between the two of them, it makes it very difficult to reconstruct it. And you also don't get that, “You just did something right?” So when– when I would do– people a trick, and they go, “You did something there.” In their mind, they solved the trick. And you've destroyed it, right? You've destroyed that story. You've destroyed that atmosphere. And– and there's a huge skill as a magician that you have, or a huge advantage you have as a magician, which is: I know how the trick ends; you don't. And when you think about it, all of these things I'm talking about, Allison, apply to music; they apply to telling a really good story. And you talk about time misdirection: time misdirection is, um, Chekhov's gun.

AA: Yeah; right!

CS: It’s planting these seeds and– and, you know, so on and so forth. Like, if there's a big twist at the end of your story, it's only gonna work with time misdirection.

AA: Mm-hmm.

CS: And that's if you have done the dirty work already, and then much later you reveal the trick and you have that advantage over your reader or your viewer, 'cause you know how it's gonna end, right?

AA: Yes. You're absolutely right. Yeah!

CS: And that concept of time misdirection blew my mind because it wasn't dexterity, it wasn't– wasn't “smarter than you” or anything like that. It was a format–

AA: Mm-hmm.

CS: –that I then realized, you know, applied to a lot of other things.

AA: Yeah, totally. Well, and I feel like there's something really interesting there when you're talking about creating this, kind of, cozy shoulder-to-shoulder experience of the magic for the person that you're doing the– the trick for, and how that collaboration, I think, gives them more opportunities to be directed.

CS: Yes.

AA: 'Cause they're predisposed to like you, you know? [laughs]

CS: Right; well, yeah. What– what you're saying is like, “Look, we both know what's about to happen here,” right.

AA: Yeah; right.

CS: Like, we know what the deal is.

AA: You're gonna make a card come outta somewhere. [laughs]

CS: [laughs] Right? So– so if I can present this in a non-challenging way; if I cannot put your ego at– at– at– at stake, and at challenge here–

AA: Yes!

CS: If I can say, “Let's watch this together,” and it's really subtle. Uh, and I could speak for hours on this, so shut me up in a second. But, like, simple things like language: so instead of saying, “Here, put your card back in the deck. I'm going to shuffle the cards. I'm gonna cut the cards. I have no idea where your card is,” switch the language: “Let's put the cards back in the deck. Let's mix them up.” You notice now I've changed it from me to us. We're doing something together.

AA: Yeah. Yep.

CS: And you know, “Now it'd be– it'd be hard to know even where that card is,” right?

AA: Right; yeah.

CS: And it's not me doing things, right? We're watching this together, and– and it– it is subtle stuff like that. It's, like, subtle language that, once I started to learn things like that, it was huge, and it– it taught me the power of language, the power of atmosphere, the power of intimacy. And– and these are skills, Allison, that not only have I carried into my interviewing and stuff that we're talking about here, but it's helped me in my profession as well.

AA: Yeah, talk about that; I'm curious about that.

CS: I think, without question, my curiosity and my creativity are the two big advantages that I've had my entire career. And they have been what has differentiated me, and I– I've– I'm very lucky. I work for, uh, one of the big four consulting firms, and what has differentiated me in my current career and the couple careers I had before that, is this advantage of, “I don't know that, but I think I can learn it, and now I'm going to.” And also some of the skills that I've picked up as I've explored these different creative endeavors. So I do a lot of client work now, where I'm– I am the quote-unquote face of different accounts, and the one thing that I hear all the time is just, “Craig, you make them so comfortable.” Like, I hear that all the time, and I go back and I go: that's where it came from, right? It came from bartending.

AA: Yeah.

CS: Which then extended to the card tricks and things like that. And– and it's the same thing now. Now you think about, like, the tone of my podcast: it's very intimate; I mean, we– and you've heard I go to places.

AA: Mm-hmm.

CS: And I've had many a guest afterwards saying, “I've never talked about that on a podcast.”

AA: Wow.

CS: Um, and there's times where I've gone places where I've, like, an hour later, I've gotten a message from the guest going, “Craig, I don't think I want that out there.” I'm like, “Of course; yeah. No, of course.” But there's also a part of me that's just like, “Wow, that's cool that you went there at all with me.”

AA: Yeah; right.

CS: That I– I was able to create that.

AA: Yes. Creating that safe space and that– that feeling of well-being.

CS: Yep.

AA: And that ability to– to share that deeply with people. I– I just– I think that is one of the most vital human experiences, is to be able to give people a space where they can open up and be themselves and feel good about that, you know? So hats off to you, honestly.

CS: Thank you.

AA: 'Cause you do it a lot. [chuckles]

CS: Yeah. And, and there's all kinds of different ways to do it. I find, for me, what has worked the most — and this is not– this is not a prescription; this is me explaining to you what's worked for me.

AA: Mm-hmm.

CS: I think people can accomplish this many different ways. Where I have found success is learning about myself, going to therapy, being introspective, becoming comfortable with myself, like the stuff that I'm good at, and the stuff I'm bad at, and getting a little bit older and getting, like– I'm at a point in my life, Allison, where I don't feel the need to prove anything anymore. I don't feel like I have to be the big person in the room. I don't feel like when I meet somebody new, I have to prove to you that I'm smart, or I have to prove to you I'm successful, or I have to prove to you that I'm six foot tall or whatever it might be.

AA: [chuckles] Right.

CS: And that– that– that's an inner confidence that I've learned through a lot of talking to a lot of people–

AA: Uh-huh.

CS: And– and finding a partner who– who I don't deserve. And what can sometimes create that comfortable thing for me is creating a non-challenging environment, which is — again, tying us back to magic — now, one of the ways I do that, and you've heard me do it on the podcast, is self-effacing humor. You know, like, “Hey, I, I'm a big dork,” or “Thank you for coming on my crummy little podcast,” or little statements like that, kind of just lower the heat a little bit.

AA: [laughs] Mm-hmm.

CS: Like, “Maybe Craig's not expecting me to be something.” Like, “Maybe Craig just wants to talk to me,” you know? And that's what has worked for me, and that is on the podcast and me talking to, you know, somebody in the C-suite somewhere.

AA: Right; right. Well, and I feel like you definitely exercise those skills, too– there's kind of an analogy, there, with gaming, too, and sitting down at a table and collaborating with people to tell a story, right? Like you're trying to create that comfort. Do you feel like there's– there's that tie there, too?

CS: No question. No question. You know, I mean, tabletop roleplaying is a very unique thing, and it's not a coincidence that I left it when I did, and that I found it and fell in love deeper than ever before. And because I think now– now I can enjoy it in ways I didn't before. I think when I first was roleplaying, back when I was, you know, a kid — so I– I don't know if you know this: I was really smart back then. [laughs]

AA: [laughs]

CS: Like, really smart, and I would make sure you knew that. [laughs]

AA: [laughs] Uh-huh. Good; good.

CS: And– and it's funny when I think about how that would translate to the tabletop, right? So I was always gonna be the GM, “I'm going to tell the story; if you wanna sit at the table with me while I tell that, that'd be great.” [laughs]

AA: Oh yeah! That's everybody's favorite activity, right? [laughs]

CS: [laughs] Yeah; yeah.

AA: Being an audience. [laughs]

CS: But now– now I can sit at the table as a player or as a GM and go: let's do this. Let's– let's do this together. And, you know, I might– I might put down the tablecloth; I might set the table; but we're gonna cook this dinner together.

AA: Yeah.

CS: And we're going to eat it and enjoy it together. And I have enough tools and repaired things in me that allows me to be very comfortable with that. But it's kind of fun too because it's still new to me.

AA: Ohh; yeah.

CS: So, like, I– and– and– and this is where the curiosity, the journey, and– and you know, I've hinted at it, there's a bit of hubris that's part of all of this, too, which is: I think I'm good at it now, but I think I can get really good at it.

AA: Yeah.

CS: Because I can see that pathway. I just haven't gone down it yet, you know? And– and I get excited about doing that. And getting there and seeing the– peeling the onion, and seeing the layers in this craft of, not making games, 'cause I don't make games, but of playing games and of entertaining people at my table and, because we do actual plays on Twitch and YouTube, people watching that. You, like, you have to be doing something right if somebody wants to sit and watch you play. [laughs]

AA: [chuckles] Yeah, definitely; definitely. Would you call that your creative practice, this, uh, creation of the YouTube channel and playing the games online? Do you– do you have a creative practice?

CS: When you say creative practice, keep talking. I'm not sure I a hundred percent–

AA: Well, I'm just– I'm really curious if you, like, if you consider that in– you know, when you think about all of the things that you do in a day, do you think of yourself as a creative?

CS: Yes. I did, but it took me a little while to get there.

AA: Okay.

CS: Um, it– that's relatively recent that I would label myself as a creative.

AA: Okay; yeah. Tell me about that.

CS: And now I understand your practice question: yes. Almost every week I'm on Twitch or YouTube running or playing a game; that is me practicing. And what's really great about recording it: I go back and watch it, you know, and that's huge.

AA: Oh, you're running the tapes! [laughs]

CS: Oh, very much so. But I did the same thing with magic, right? So I would do magic in front of a mirror. I would record myself. So 20 years ago, believe it or not, you could record things– [laughs]

AA: [laughs] Yeah.

CS: –and watch it later. Um, but I would do that. And um, it was very common for me to bring to my corporate gigs, whether it be a girlfriend or a friend, and I would ask them to record me because, you know, when you're performing in a place, and you're very focused on things, you don't see yourself. But I would watch the tape and just realize, like, “That was good; you need to do more of that. That was 80% good; we need to get to a hundred percent. What were you doing there? 'cause that's terrible And you're, you're defeating the purpose.” And yes. So the– yes, I am televising my practice. And what's exciting for me, Allison, is that I've been recording these actual plays of running games for two years, is me going back to me two years ago and going, “My God, like, I have come a long way.” Like, I have, I– I've documented this journey.

AA: Yeah; yeah.

CS: And– and that's really encouraging for me, right?

AA: Absolutely.

CS: So it's like: so now what happens two years from now?

AA: Right. And you know, I'm gonna pull a Craig Shipman, here: so if I were to go back and watch your- your two-years-ago stream, and then watch one from, you know, last week, what– what am I seeing that's different?

CS: Confidence.

AA: Oh really?

CS: Yeah. It's confidence. It is trusting myself, trusting the table, trusting that not only have I picked the right people to be there, but, like, to a certain degree — like, some of the people that are at my tables are self-selected because patrons get first dibs on seats–

AA: Ohh.

CS: And, you know, I've been very — I mean, knock on wood — I have yet to have a bad player.

AA: Wow.

CS: And, um, we talk about that a little bit on that AMA you talked about.

AA: Mm-hmm.

CS: Where I can– I– I call it luck, and I've had many people saying, “No, Craig; you– you are attracting a community that– of– of like-minded people, so it's not a surprise.” But– but it's confidence that–

AA: Okay.

CS: –what we're about to do is cool; I think it's gonna be really interesting. I have enough passion to give away, like– like the first time I played Blades in the Dark, like, I am so excited to play this game that, like, “I've got enough for you and for you, and like, I'm gonna get you excited too!” [laughs]

AA: [laughs]

CS: And even back then, I think when I was not where I am now as a storyteller, and as a player, and as a contributor, and as a collaborator; even back then, I go watch back, then I could tell like, “Oh, Craig really is having fun, and– and– and– and that– and it's a little infectious.” And even though I was putting a lot of square pegs in some round holes [chuckles] and– and– and stuff like that, that heart, that curiosity, that passion was there two years ago.

AA: Uh-huh; wow.

CS: And I think what has changed over the last two years is– is technique and– and confidence in letting go, and– and trusting that I don't have to control this. I can set the table and let it go and react, and we're gonna get there together.

AA: Right, right. I like that you're creating this relationship between — or among — revision and passion and confidence, and how all of those, kind of, in the same pot, kind of, bubble up together to– to create the– the person that you are who's sitting at that table, running that game or playing that game alongside the other– the other players. So that's– that's a lovely– a lovely sentiment. Do you feel like revision has always been part of your process and, like, that really active focus on revision?

CS: No question. No question. So in fact, what has changed for me the most, Allison, is I've– as I've gotten better as a person and older as a person, is: I was always, “I can do better than that,” right? So, “I did that; I can do better; I can do that.” The one thing that's really been good for me from a mental health standpoint, is starting to acknowledge what I did and say that was good.

AA: Mmm.

CS: And– and I should be proud of that.

AA: Mm-hmm.

CS: Doesn't mean it can't be better, but I should be proud of that. And a good friend of mine, Patrick McLean, who's a– a professional writer — he's been my friend since high school — he talks– he has a very simple thing, and I don't think it's his, but he talks about it; he is like, “If you're not writing, you can't call yourself a writer.” Right? If you wanna be a writer, it's real simple: just write. And, like, if I want to be a GM, then I gotta run games. [laughs]

AA: [laughs] Yeah; right.

CS: If I want to be a part of the roleplaying game and tabletop ecosystem, what can I bring to the table? Uh, I think I can interview and dig into the creative process for these people. Then I– then I need to start doing that. I need to start making that happen. And– and if I want to share the joy of play with people, then I gotta put it out there and do it. So I think– I think that's really important. And for people listening that are creatives, I really highly recommend — 'cause we can criticize ourselves so easily because we know we can do better, right? Like, that's a good thing–

AA: Yeah; yeah.

CS: Like, we do something, we're like, “This is not my best,” right?

AA: Yep.

CS: But find something there to be proud of, pat yourself on the back for that, and then work on the rest. But– but find joy along the process, because I think that extends your curiosity. I think that extends your fuel. And the only other thing I'll throw in there is, also do that for other creatives who you come across. So I– I– I got wicked into miniature painting; uh, loved painting miniatures, uh, for these tabletop games. And I got pretty good at it. Not great at it, but I got pretty good at it. Good enough that people would bring me their things and say, “Craig, what do you think about this?” Which is an incredible compliment that they think you're good enough– that your opinion is worth a shit.

AA: Mm-hmm.

CS: And always take it. Some given to me were better than others. [laughs]

AA: [laughs] Right.

CS: Because people are at different points in their journeys. [chuckles]

AA: [chuckles] Yes, yes.

CS: But I would take it, and the first thing you have to do is find something that's great, 'cause it's there. Even– even if your three-year-old, finger painting on the wall, if you look at it long enough, you'll find it. You'll find greatness in there. Point it out to them. Say, “I love your choice of reds. I love the red here. That's really great.” Throw in, “You know, you probably could work on this a little bit, so that's something to think about for next time.” And a big revelation for me is that I would do that — like, I would do that for other people professionally, and– and– and– and these skills and things like that. And my wife, because she's a lot smarter than me, said, “You don't do that to yourself.” And that was like [imitates explosion] mind: blown.

AA: [laughs]

CS: And that has been huge for me. So that's my– my unsolicited recommendation for creatives listening, is: you already do that for other people, I'm willing to bet, because you have a passion for creativity and you can see the joy of other people creating, and it's easy for you to find greatness in everything that they do.

AA: Mm-hmm.

CS: Take a second, and just find greatness in everything that you do, however minute, and just go, “You know what, Craig, you're really good at that.”

AA: Yeah.

CS: And that's okay.

AA: Yes; I wholeheartedly agree with you. I think that's wonderful.

[Music break]

AA: You know, you're talking about finding greatness in the work of other people, so I would love to know: where do you look for greatness? What's inspiring you? What's exciting you? Books, movies, TV, games– 

CS: Ooh.

AA: –other people, you know– 

CS: Oh god. 

AA: Music. We could talk about Harry Styles again. [laughs]

CS: [laughs] God! People have gotta listen to our talk about Harry Styles. You and I lost our shit. [laughs]

AA: I know, we were like, “Do you love Harry? I'd totally love Harry Styles!” Oh my god. [laughs]

CS: God, we geeked out together. It was amazing. 

AA: Yeah! 

CS: Um, so I– I'm a huge consumer of creative work, always have been. 

AA: Mm-hmm. 

CS: So I'm trying to think of what lately; and I– I'll try to drill down to answer your question, like, what is it, right?

AA: Yeah.

CS: So, you know what? And this is your partner's fault. Um, so John was on the podcast and he– he and I got talking about great shows, and somehow The Wire came up. 

AA: Yep. 

CS: And we're talking about how, “God, what an amazing show The Wire was, right?” 

AA: Yeah. 

CS: And afterwards I was, you know, sitting down a– a week or so later; I'm like, the last time I saw The Wire is when The Wire– it was coming out every week. So I was like, you know, I've got [HBO] Max, so I'm gonna sit down; I'm gonna rewatch The Wire. And that's almost 20 years since The Wire's been made. So if you didn't feel old, now you do. [laughs]

AA: [laughs]

CS: Um, it's been amazing to go back and watch that show again. And to answer your question, what excites me is: the first time I watched The Wire, it was about “what's gonna happen.” You know, it was very story-viewing; I want to know how this– what happens with the story. Now that I know the story, going back and seeing the creative genius that happens, and it's all choices. Creativity is choices. That's all it is, is picking A over B. That's all creativity is. And going through– and, uh, just recently, I– I have become obsessed again with Omar, who's one of the characters in The Wire. And Omar was a favorite character of mine the first time I watched it, and I knew less than I do now, but now watching it, having talked and learned so much, like, I realized what– why I loved Omar. Part of the fact is because Michael's an, or was, an unbelievable actor–

AA: Absolutely.

CS: Like, such a huge talent; rest in peace.

AA: Yeah.

CS: But from a writer perspective, from a creative perspective: like, now I wanna go interview the people who created The Wire, 'cause, like– 'cause what Omar is: Omar is a tool for the writer. Omar is this– he's not in faction A; he's not in faction B; both factions hate Omar; both factions leverage and use Omar; Omar only cares about Omar; and he's an agent of chaos through this entire five seasons, which– which so much changes, but the one constant through the entire show is this Omar character, which became an incredible tool for these writers. 'Cause The Wire is really a commentary on a lot of things; it's a social commentary; it's not about the characters. The characters are demonstrating what has been tried– people have tried to simplify the problems that– that are exhibited in The Wire, and The Wire does an incredible job of saying, [whispers] “This is a goddamn mess.” 

AA: Yes it does. 

CS: And, “This is so complicated and it's so gray,” and every time someone tries to make it black and white, go watch The Wire again, 'cause you'll realize it's not black and white. So what excites me is to go back, and to see those choices and see those decisions. Um, I'm trying to think of what else lately. I just recently started playing, uh, the video game, Darkest Dungeon 2. 

AA: Oh yes. 

CS: So I fell down a rabbit hole with the first one. Uh, played the first Darkest Dungeon. It's such a unique visual style — again, so many unique choices in it. Um, bounced off it at first, but it was– I kept– you know, I played it, and I was like: yeah, this is not for me. And then everybody in my ecosystem was just like, “Have you played Darkest Dungeon?” And these are people I respect, right? So if– if this person is telling me it's a good game, then I missed something; the problem is me, not Darkest Dungeon. I went back to it and figured it out. I'm like: oh my god, great game. So now the second game comes out, and 90% chance you're gonna fail because I love the first one so much. And, uh, you and I talked about this with Harry Styles, with the challenge of putting out the next album.

AA: Yes. 

CS: And you have to find this really interesting sweet spot where you say: this is gonna be familiar enough that you recognize it, but it also needs to be different enough that we go, “This is why I fell in love with the first one; not because this is the same, but it's because I love the choices you're making; I love the decisions you make in gameplay.” And boy oh boy: those sons of guns; that– that– that put together Darkest Dungeon 2. I get into it, I'm like, “Oh, that's familiar. I like that. That feels cozy.” And like, “Ooh, what the hell is that? I have no idea what's happening over here.” And then learn that, and then just fall in love again. And you and I talked about this. I do that with music too, and it's one of the things that you and I mentioned about Harry Styles. Harry is killing it — killing it — with that– that jump from album to album. 

AA: [chuckles] Yeah! 

CS: All of his albums are all him. And– and– and you can tell it's him, but they're all so different. And I need the next album– an artist that I love, I need their next album; I need to not like it the first time I hear it. I need to hear it the first time and go, “Um, well, it's fine. It's fine.” And then I listen to it again, and then I listen to it again. And what it is, is I'm catching up, right? So between album two and three, Harry took a journey creatively. And he followed different paths, and he expanded and he learned and he changed. And I wasn't there for the journey. I was there for album two and album three. [laughs]

AA: [laughs]

CS: So what I'm seeing in album three is the end result of that. And at first it's jarring, 'cause I wasn't there as he was going down that path. 

AA: Right.

CS: But if I– if I give it enough time, I start to realize what happened with him. And–

AA: It's almost like he's time misdirecting you in a way. [chuckles]

CS: Very much so, you know? Very much so. You know, and– and, and he's good, 'cause like there'll be one song on his new album that you're like, “Oh, that's the Harry I love. That's, you know, like– I don't like the other songs. Track four is good.” And he's just like, “Stay with me. You're gonna catch up; you know, you're gonna catch up.” [laughs]

AA: [laughs]

CS: Uh, another band that I love is The National. 

AA: Mmm; mm-hmm. 

CS: Um, and The National has done an amazing job of changing just enough from album to album to take me on the journey until the most recent one.

AA: See, I haven't heard the most recent one. What's going on with that? 

CS: The most recent one is way too familiar. Instead of feeling like track 1 through 12, it feels like track 13 through 26. 

AA: Wow. 

CS: And the other band that did that to me — and I'm not criticizing because the amount of the work that they've done before this is so amazing, right? Like everybody, everybody gets a Mulligan, right? [laughs]

AA: [laughs]

CS: But Tool is another band that I have an incredible passion for, and part of my passion was how different in the journey they went from album to album, their last album, which they took, like, 18 years to make: just nothing new. It was the same as the last album.

AA: Oh wow; wow.

CS: And it kind of– but at the same time, too, sometimes I have artists that have gone so far in their journey, I can't stay with them. 

AA: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

CS: So one of my all-time great, great, great, loves an artist is Ani DiFranco. And she has, like, 50 albums. And I was with her for the longest time, even when she started to really change. And I was like, “I'm with you; I'm with you.” And then there was an album that came out where I said, “I love what you're doing; I love where you're going; but I'm not gonna be able to go there with you.” 

AA: Yeah. 

CS: I'm– I'm– I'm gonna stay here. And you go.

AA: Yeah.

CS: And– and you're gonna find new people to love you and listen to you, but it went too far for me. I would rather have that happen than to hear track 13 through 26, if that makes any sense. 

AA: Absolutely. No, I totally get it. If you love something, let it go, right? [laughs]

CS: Yeah; yeah! And– and I– and I– and what's great is, I can go back and listen to Ani’s second album. 

AA: Yeah! 

CS: And go, “Gawd, this was so good!” [laughs]

AA: [laughs] And it was so good! And it was so good! Yeah; yeah. I love what you're saying about, you know, wanting to have that familiarity in place and then, you know, allowing something to branch out and– and alter your expectations–

CS: Yes. 

AA: –about it, in terms of creativity. And there– you know, there's– there's something in there, I think, about the creative process in and of itself, right? Like, I wanna be able to base this new creative project, for example, on something that I've already done before. Some skill; some, you know, art; some craft; something that I've expressed before, but, I'm gonna try something new. 

CS: Yeah. 

AA: And sometimes it's not gonna work out, right? Like, sometimes, you're gonna fall flat.

CS: You are, and– and you have to find this weird combination of vulnerability and confidence. They seem diametrical, but they're not. They're closely tied together, because as your confidence increases, as you start being the voice that says, you know, “Hey Craig, you did a good job. Allison, that was a really good episode; that was a really good interview you did with that person.” You then allow yourself to be more vulnerable and– and– and that vulnerability then gives you the permission to shoot and hit, and also shoot and miss. 

AA: Yeah. Well, and you're– you're kind of dancing around this idea that you, kind of, brought up earlier with: when you're creating, uh, uh, an illusion, or a trick for someone, is that you're, involving them, and their ego isn't on the line anymore. And learning that, I think, as a creative is so important to know that my ego is not the most important thing here. It's not the thing that's the stakes of this creative expression, right? And that's why you say things like, “I– I– I can play the guitar. I don't do it very well.” [laughs]

CS: Yeah. And you know, it– it– it's tough, though, because I have to be honest: you know, I can get 20 DMs, I can get 20 comments on a YouTube video that are like, “Wow. Like this is, da-da-da, this was great, da-da-da.” And it's– and then I get the other one. 

AA: Yeah. 

CS: And my first instinct is to get defensive. And then another instinct, which I hate about myself is– is to lash out, right? To– to– to– to– you've made me defensive, so guess what? I'm gonna go on offense now. Um, which is a very ugly thing. Learning to go, “That's okay, that's okay.” Like, “I– I made this, and it– it– it turns out I didn't make it for you.” 

AA: Mm-hmm. 

CS: And that's okay. 

AA: Yes. 

CS: And, and you know who said that to me is, uh, Robin D. Laws; uh, in my interview with Robin, I said to him like, “What is, like– how do you handle that type of feedback? How do you handle it when– when somebody, you know, doesn't like what you made?” And it was one of those– so obvious, right? [chuckles] And it just knocked me off of my feet. He goes, “Oh, you don't like this game? Well, I– I– I– it's– this game's not for you, then.”

AA: [chuckles]

CS: This– it– like, I don't know why, Allison, but that registered for me in a way that I just had never thought of it before.

AA: Yeah; yeah. 

CS: And it– and it changed my perspective on criticism. Taking criticism, there's always gonna be some truth in there. Grab that truth. That's, that was a gift, right? So that's great. But the rest of it go. “Hey, it's okay. There's a lot of people I made this for, turns out it wasn't for you. And that's okay. And that's not on me–”

AA: Right. 

CS: “–And that's not on you either.”

AA: Yeah; no, you're– you're absolutely right. Well, Robin's absolutely right. [laughs] There are things that– that aren't for– for everyone. 

CS: Yeah, that's–

AA: And that's fine. That's just life, you know? 

CS: Yeah. 

AA: I don't expect to like everything I see, 'cause if I did, how could I judge if I did like something, you know? [chuckles] Like, there's value in juxtaposition, I think.

CS: Yeah. So I'm gonna preach for just a second–

AA: Yeah. Please. 

CS: –and I apologize. The other part of that is: make sure you're part of the other 10. 

AA: Mmm.

CS: Right? So when we are unhappy, when we're disappointed, we are vocal. When we are satisfied, we are silent. So if you're watching a YouTube video and you're like: this is kind of cool! Take two seconds, leave a comment that “This is kind of cool.” If you listen to a podcast and go, “Wow, that was really neat!” Track down the email address, track down a way to tell that person, “That was really neat.” And– and the reason is, is that, you're gonna be very rare. You're the silent majority for a lot of creatives, and it's hard for me to explain how powerful it is because it's so rare and it's so easy not to do. So it's one thing I'll challenge, like, if there's a book you're reading that you really enjoying, find out how to contact the author and just tell them. If there's a show that you love, find the writer and reach out to them somehow. And– and there's always a way, right? And just tell them. You– you don't think it– realize it, but you'll be the unique voice in that process. And it feels good, too. It feels– it feels good to say thank you. 

AA: Yeah. That is such a powerful message to– for– for virtually anything that you're doing: just say– just say thank you if someone makes something or does something for you that you enjoy. [laughs] Right? ] It seems, like, pretty basic, but– but it’s not– 

CS: And it's selfish.

AA: Yeah; yeah!

CS: Because it's like, I want you to keep doing it. [laughs]

AA: Yeah. [laughs] It's– you're, ultimately, you're right. Like: yeah, I want more of this, please. 

CS: [chuckles]

AA: So I wanna let you know that you're doing a great job. 

CS: [laughs] Exactly! 

AA: Well, Craig, I want you to take this with an open heart: I want you to keep making Tabletop Talk. 

CS: Oh, thank you.

AA: Because I think you're doing such a wonderful job. I really, I truly do. 

CS: Can I ask you a question? 

AA: Sure. 

CS: So I have been struggling over the last two and a half weeks, and your opinion means a lot to me in this. I have been struggling that the podcast has gotten samesie. 

AA: Mm. Like in the format? 

CS: Well, just– I– I'm trying– so I'm trying to think– and you're– you're– and this is– and not only do I respect the shit outta you, but you also are a listener too, right? So I'm starting to question whether I have listeners that are like: yes, this is a different creative, but I've kind of heard this before. Have you gotten a sense of that? Is this in my head or is it time for me to start saying, maybe I stop doing this exactly the way I've been doing it. Maybe I spice it up, and not do interviews every single episode. Am I– am I making sense? 

AA: You are absolutely making sense, and I am just gonna tell you that every single creative does sound different because they all have different stories to tell and they're all their own unique individuals, and I love that about that. However, you are onto something because you have a lot of great opinions. The reason I wanted you on this podcast–

CS: Mm-hmm. 

AA: Because you are so– you're so wise in this space, and you have so many great thoughts, and you think about these things so deeply and with such curiosity, and you have this backlog of talking with people about this stuff for four years, right? Four years of the podcast. 

CS: Yep.

AA: And I think creating another channel through which you can share those experiences, and what you think about tabletop roleplaying games or board games, or the– the act of play or the– the creative practice or whatever it is: that's valuable! That's incredibly valuable, and I think your audience would love that. I know I would. So again, I'm being selfish. [chuckles]

CS: Yes. 

AA: Do it. If you have the energy and the time to start making episodes that are slightly different than what you do right now, do it!

CS: Yeah. Yeah. And– and– and– and we're gonna do this off mic; um, you're gonna regret all of that feedback, just so you know.

AA: [laughs]

CS: Because I– I would really love to pick your brain more of that because, um, I have felt that inside of me a little bit. But I have no idea what that looks like. 

AA: Yeah, totally. Totally. 

CS: So I would love to pick your brain a little bit to figure that out.

AA: Oh yes. Anytime. 

CS: Cool; I’m very complimented by that.

AA: Anytime, anytime, anytime. Maybe we can just, Maybe we can do it together. Maybe we can collaborate. 

CS: Oooh my god, don't get me started!

AA: [laughs] This is what I said to John! I was like, “Oh my god, Craig and I should just have a podcast where we just talk to each other about stuff.” [laughs]

CS: That's it. That's it. Done. [laughs]

AA: [laughs] Okay. Okay; awesome. Well, this has been a fun episode! [laughs]

CS: [laughs]

AA: We just workshopped podcasts … It's like: this is live creative practice, though, Craig!

CS: Yes.

AA: This is what I'm trying to get at in this season, right? Like, this sense of experimentation and discovery and how you can create cultures and communities and ways to collaborate around the creative work that people do, and you've just facilitated that live on stage.

CS: But what's important, and you and I have talked about this with each other, is you have done that in a very unique way here. And this is something for people– you don't have to have a podcast to ask questions. 

AA: [chuckles} No, you don't. 

CS: So for those listening, think about that. Think about: maybe instead of saying something, maybe instead of telling somebody something, maybe ask questions.

AA: Mm-hmm. 

CS: And if– if you start getting good at asking questions, you're gonna be amazed at– at the things that open up for you, um, including the quality of the relationship you have that– with that person because there's nothing anybody in this world loves more than to talk about themselves. And asking questions gives that opportunity, but expressing your curiosity that way can be very powerful.

AA: Yeah. 

CS: And the only reason that you and I have had these little revelations with each other– [laughs] 

AA: [laughs]

CS: –over the last hour is because of the back and forth questions.

AA: Absolutely. A hundred percent. Totally agree. This is amazing. Craig, is there anything you wanna shout out? Anything you wanna hype up for people to go and check out?

CS: Yeah, like if– if you– if the idea of hearing somebody really — in a long-form podcast — kind of dig into that creative process within the context of tabletop roleplaying — and board games too; though it's majority– it's heavy on the roleplaying games aspect of it — if that sounds interesting to you, check out Tabletop Talk. Uh, so if you search Tabletop Talk, Third Floor Wars, you'll find it. I've heard from people that have no interest in tabletop roleplaying games that are creatives that enjoy listening because they feel like I am able to pull out that process that fascinates me so much: that decision-making that happens on that journey from start and, oh, so important, to finish, uh, and– and– and the– and– and– and making something, right? Uh, to quote my friend Patrick, [chuckles] like– 

AA: [chuckles] Yeah. 

CS: –in order to write– to be a writer, you have to write, you know? And then if you wanna see me, and a lot of my really great friends that I've made play games that aren't Dungeons & Dragons, you can go to the YouTube channel, Third Floor Wars, or the Twitch Channel, uh, Third Floor Wars. Uh, but more important than anything, there is something that everybody listening to has turned them on. If there's a book that you've just read, there's a song you have just heard, there's a podcast you're listening to now or before this one: go support ‘em; support ‘em with an email, support ‘em on Patreon, buy something of theirs. Like, like you– if you're listening to this podcast, you love creativity, and the only way we can make sure that people are making stuff is if we support them, and that doesn't necessarily have to cost you anything.

AA: Oh, what a message. Craig Shipman, everybody! I’m gonna insert some applause there. [laughs]

CS: [laughs] 

AA: Oh, that’s fantastic. [chuckles] Thank you so much for joining me today. Here on Little Oracles; this has been an absolute dream. You're just you're just a great a great person to talk to about this kind of thing. Thank you.

CS: This wasn't long enough, though. 

AA: I know. Well, that's why we're gonna start our own podcast. [laughs]

CS: [laughs] I know! I was gonna say, we’ve spent a cumulative of three hours on each other’s shows, and I totally feel like we've got another 10 hours in us. [laughs]

AA: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, just on Harry Styles alone. [laughs]

CS: This was awesome. [laughs] Well, and we haven't brought up the big controversy. 

AA: I know! The big Billy Joel controversy! 

CS: The big Billy Joel controversy that came out on my podcast–

AA: Yeah. 

CS: –which is, um, I had a very unpopular opinion that you rightfully — rightfully — uh, rejected. And, you know, maybe we'll do a pay-per-view. 

AA: [laughs] Yeah! 

CS: [laughs] Of Allison and Craig discussing Billy Joel, and figuring out how can Craig be a Billy Joel fan, yet think Billy Joel is a bad songwriter. [laughs]

AA: Ugh! I got thoughts in my mind about this. [laughs]

CS: [laughs] I love that we didn’t get to it! [laughs]

AA: So stay tuned, everybody. Uh, follow (at) little oracles on Instagram. You can check out the blog for more big book energy and creativity content at little oracles dot com and as always, take care, keep creating and stay divine.

[Outro music]

[Secret outtake]

AA: [sighs] Okay; step back a little. Is there anything else you wanna talk about? 

CS: [whispers] That was really cool. 

AA: That was really cool!