S02:E14 | Creative Chat with Sabrina Sims: Zine Culture, Live Coding, Poetry Games, & the DIY Philosophy

Welcome to another Creative Chat, featuring a true Renaissance woman: artist and game designer Sabrina Sims. As a New York–based experimental media artist, Sabrina works across genre and media, including zine-making, fiber arts, installation work, live coding, games, synth music ... you name it, she probably does it.

I was so thrilled to sit down with Sabrina to talk about her creative practice and process, how community informs everything she makes, and her thoughts on DIY as both aesthetic and philosophy (also: what the heck live coding actually is). Sabrina is endlessly inspired, and I'm sure you'll come away inspired, too. 

Enjoy, and, as always, take care, keep creating, and stay divine.

Resources

• Sabrina's Links | Website: www.starlyart.studio | Instagram: @starlyartstudio | Itch.io: starlybri.itch.io
• Mentioned in this episode: Big Bad Con, Thirsty Sword Lesbians (April Kit Walsh / Evil Hat Productions)

IG: @littleoracles

Transcript

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[Intro music]

Allison Arth: Hi everybody, and welcome to the Little Oracles podcast, an oracle for the everyday creative. I’m Allison Arth. Welcome to another Creative Chat! I'm really excited for this one, because I'm sitting down today with someone whom I share a love of poetry, and especially gamifying poetry, among other artistic pursuits: artist and game designer, Sabrina Sims. Sabrina, thank you so much for joining me today and hanging out.

Sabrina Sims: Yeah! Thanks so much for having me. I'm so excited. [laughs]

AA: [laughs] I'm really glad that you're here. Um, so we met tangentially through Big Bad Con–

SS: Mm-hmm.

AA: –the wonderful gaming convention, that’s both online and in-person, out of the Bay Area. So thank you Big Bad Con for making this possible. [laughs]

SS: Yeah!

AA: It was so amazing because– Sabrina, tell me what that, uh, experience was that you were part of.

SS: Yeah, I, um, I signed up for a, basically like an advice session with a game maker and I submitted it to ask for advice about my game Tarot Poem Party, and I wanted to see if I could get advice about like, you know, wrapping up development, you know, promoting it. And I am really glad that they, you know, they accepted me and like, gave me the opportunity to like, to ask for advice about that.

AA: Yeah; and then you ended up talking to my partner, John Harper, and it was so– it– I– Sabrina: it was the most amazing experience for me because he came in for dinner that night and he said, “You are not gonna believe one of the people that I talked to today; this person is making poetry roleplaying games.” And I was– I like dropped everything and I was like, “What?!?” Because there aren't very many of them out there, are there?

SS: Yeah. It's so strange. I'm like, I thought there would be more, honestly. 'Cause I feel like games are very like nerdy and like storytelling based, so yeah.

AA: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had the same, the same thought. So I'm so glad that you're creating in the same space, and it's so exciting to– to have you on the show. So let's, um, step back before we really dig into Tarot Poem Party and all of the other amazing artistic things that you do. I would just love to hear kind of your creative backstory. Like, have you always been a creator; you know, where did you get your creative start? How did you get where you are today? Can you just tell us a little bit about that story?

SS: Yeah, so I, I mean, like most– most artists, like I've been, you know, creating things since I was like pretty young. I really started getting into making things, I think the first, you know, first things I started off with were kind of like things like origami. I was like super into that.

AA: Yeah.

SS: I was like really obsessed with stationary. Like my dad would like go to the Hello Kitty store with me and like, get me like stationary and I would just like, kind of like collect, collect it.

AA: Uh-huh.

SS: And like, you know– and then I also, um, got really into painting and drawing in high school. I started off with more like, I wouldn't say quite fine arts, but like the kind of entry creative outlets.

AA: Nice. And then you– I– because I know you make zines, too, and you are a live coder.

SS: Mm-hmm.

AA: And that's definitely something I wanna get into, but like, do you think of yourself as a creative; like, is that what you do every day? Is that like how you make a living?

SS: Yeah. Being an artist is my job. And like my, I would say like, I don't know. I feel like the word passion is loaded. [laughs]

AA: [laughs] Yeah.

SS: But it's like, I feel like for me it's just like a way of living and like existing for me.

AA: Mm-hmm.

SS: It feels great to me to be able to like do that as my, you know, as my life, yeah.

AA: Mm-hmm. I see a lot of parallels between origami and live coding, to be honest with you. Not that I know a ton about live coding, but–

SS: Ooh. I wanna hear about that! [laughs]

AA: [laughs] So, well, I just– I feel like you're creating this really beautiful, uh, artistic experience for someone to see; this visual thing that you see, whether it's a, you know, an origami frog that's gonna hop across the table, or it's the live coding, like digital display that with all the colors and the movement and the patterns.

SS: Yeah.

AA: And yet they're all kind of based on these very regimented and rigid and linear ways of creation, you know? So you're folding and you're creating lines, and– and with live coding, you're actually creating lines of code, and you're using like these digital tools to do that. So I– I just– that's where my mind went when I– [laughs]

SS: Woo. No, I think that's so cool. Like, I actually didn't make that connection until you just said it, so I'm just like, space brain, you know? [laughs]

AA: [laughs] Isn't that funny how the things that we start off with as, uh, as young people when we're first creating–

SS: Mm-hmm.

AA: –they somehow– there's like these lines and these ties–

SS: Yeah.

AA: –that can kind of reach way, way back? It’s so cool.

SS: Yeah. I think it's like, for me lately, I've like intentionally been doing things that I was like into when I was like a kid. So, you know, I like dug through my papers and like found my origami paper. Um, and I was just like: oh, wow, this, like, it feels very like, like tender to me to be able to like, you know, realize that like now that I'm an adult, I still kind of have like this connection to it–

AA:  Oh, I love that.

SS: –that like feels really like feels really great and like I didn't forget it. So yeah.

AA: Yeah. I love that. I think we're kind of dancing around a little bit the, all of the other cool things that you do as– as an artist.

SS: Yeah, let's talk about that! [laughs]

AA: [laughs] Definitely. So let's drill into this like Tarot Poem Party stuff. But you just told me — right before we hopped on the– the call here — you just told me that it kind of sprang from your zine practice.

SS: Yeah.

AA: Can you tell us, you know, how did you get into zines? What do zines represent for you? Why zines?

SS: Yeah.

AA: And like that story of how that dovetailed into Tarot Poem Party. I would love to hear about that.

SS: I love talking about zines.

AA: [laughs] You're in a good place to do that then!

SS: [laughs] I'm so glad. So, yeah, I found out about zines, um, my first year of college. I started off my college career at Purchase College, which is a state school in New York, and it's like very art-centered. So they have several arts conservatories, and Purchase has a annual zine fest.

AA: Oh, wow.

SS: Yeah, it's like, it's amazing, honestly. So the first year I was at school, they had like a zine fest, like at the end of the year, and at Purchase, they have this huge student center and it's like kind of a warehouse almost, honestly, on campus. And so it was just the whole kind of like huge warehouse filled with like tables of like people selling their art zines. They had like, you know, people in the comic industry that come to like, give talks and it's like very, like very DIY. And I saw this and I was like: oh my gosh, this is like so cool. So like I started off collecting zines, like I never was like: oh, I gotta make this. And then a few years later, I think it was 2019, in the spring, I took a solo trip to Japan and Korea.

AA: Uh-huh.

SS: And right before I went on that trip, I made my first zine, which was called You're So Cute When You're Angry. [laughs]

AA: [laughs] I love that title.

SS: Yeah. And I made it because I was like, I probably was going through my zines and I was like: why don't I just make one?

AA: Mm-hmm.

SS: Yeah. So I like, I started the zine before I left, but I never finished it. It was like a comic. About like me being upset about people like belittling me because like, you know, I'm a– I'm, you know, friendly, sweet-looking person, and it was like, it was really cute and I still have it. But after I came back from my trip, I went to a workshop in New York City where– where I'm located, at this place called Eight Ball Zine Library. And they do a lot of community work around zine fairs and like kind of zine archiving, 'cause New York City has a really rich zine history. And so I went to this workshop and they actually like guided us through the steps of zine making. And I think that's like the thing I needed because like I made a zine about my trip to Japan. So I like just brought some pictures of my trip with me and it was called Natural Japan and that was like, My second zine technically, or my first. [laughs]

AA: Wow.

SS: Yeah.

AA: So what– what do you think it was, when you were collecting these zines and you were so excited about them, what was it about the zines that really drew you in?

SS: I think I liked that they are very handmade looking. Anyone can make 'em. So like a lot of them, you know, the ones that I collected were ones I got from other students. Other ones were like, ones I got at like bookstores. It kind of was like, you know, more accessible than things like books, because I also like love books, but you know, who can like buy like a ton of books without it being expensive? But you know, you can get a zine for a lot cheaper than that. And I feel like that's like what made it easy for me to collect them. And like, I never really had like a specific focus to like zines that I was collecting. Just that like I thought they were interesting. And I feel like I've always been someone that likes, you know, collecting knowledge and information and like, you know, hoping that I will have a use for it later, or just kind of like a way to like expand my– my thoughts and like perspective.

AA: Yeah. I'm really kind of out of the zine culture and especially, you know, you're– you're a very location-based scene culture — you're talking about [how] New York has this rich history of– of zine-making, and I'm just wondering like, are zines still — like in my mind, zines have always been kind of underground, and they've been, like you said, very DIY, very handmade, but very like anarchistic, almost; like it's taking a format and dispensing a message in kind of this underground way. Is that still where zines sit, or what's your experience of that?

SS: So for me, as I've grown as an artist, I've gotten more into small press publishing.

AA: Yeah.

SS: So, um, small press is, like, you know, when people will make their own publication and just kind of like sell them themselves versus like, traditional publishing roots.

AA: Mm-hmm.

SS: And like when I saw that, I was like, that's the same thing as zines.

AA: Mm; mm-hmm.

SS: So the spirit for me, like the– the thing that defines zine is like, you know, a work that is do-it-yourself, it's accessible, and it’s very centered about having a way to share information and art that is like accessible and kind of outside of the capitalist system of art, basically.

AA: Yeah.

SS: For me, zines feel more like, you know, sharing art with your friend versus like, you know, selling your art at like a gallery. There's like a spectrum, but it's, I feel like it's very community based, so I think it's still like that despite scenes becoming more popular like the past, probably like decade at least.

AA: Yeah. I like what you're saying about the kind of– that egalitarian aspect of it. Like everyone can access it.

SS: That's the word. [laughs]

AA: [laughs] Yeah, it's a good word. I love– it's one of my favorite words, and I love it when it's actually in– in process for people, so–

SS: Mm-hmm.

AA: So with the zines though, you said you had that moment of like: why am I not just making this? So what do you think it was about that, that– that you were like: yes, this is what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna try this, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do this.

SS: I– I think it was just the workshop format. I think I like always had it back in the back of my mind that, you know, I could make this. But it was kind of like, the thing about a zine is like sometimes, even though it's very like DIY, I feel like sometimes the concept with a zine is that you have to be an artist and you have to be a writer to make one. And I don't think that's an accessible thing for like most people because like I feel like a lot of the time, like I sometimes I even forget that most people are not artists. Like a lot of people are creative. But they're not like artists in the sense that like that's how they define themselves or like that's how they identify. So it's like having this like structure in a workshop to be like: okay, we'll print out your images and we'll show you like the form of the zine and then we'll put it together. And then scan it. And it was with a group of other people too, and like an instructor. And they, like, the instructor actually showed us, uh, their zines and they like did the monthly zine, just the pictures that they took, you know, in that past month. It's like: okay; all right; this like is less scary than I thought it would be.

AA: Oh wow. Wow.

SS: I think back then, like I was pretty new to like making art publicly and being involved in like the art community and like New York City, so–

AA: Wow. I think that is so cool that it was a workshop.

SS: Yeah.

AA: You know, that group setting where you are all being invited to take part in this– this creation.

SS: Mm-hmm.

AA: And yeah, that is such a valuable moment. Yeah. And honestly, you know, it's funny because what you're saying here about, you know, people– people are creative, but they don't necessarily label themselves as artists. I feel like that is very similar to a philosophy that you and I share about poetry and something that kind of draws us to making poetry games.

SS: Mm-hmm.

AA: So I know that one of your zines led its way into Tarot Poem Party.

SS: Yeah.

AA: So tell us about that journey of– of making that zine into what is now being developed as Tarot Poem Party, and then we can kind of talk about the whole philosophy of poetry and gamifying and all of that.

SS: Yeah. Before I forget, I actually wanted to say that I do run lots of zine workshops and I feel like for me, after going to that workshop, I was like, I mean there was a gap in between like that workshop and me teaching it. But it was kind of like once I like started showing people my zine that I made there were like: oh, like how do you make that? And I'm just like– I just like started like telling 'em and like just demo-ing it, like, you know, like to my friends and stuff. And then I was like: oh, I can like teach this. And then like, I feel like that's like probably an important part of my practice is like also teaching people how to make zines. So I– because it kind of like, I feel like that's continuing like the DIY spirit of it. I think that connects to like probably like my, my game too, yeah. [laughs]

AA: Well, I think you're bringing up a really interesting thing about zines here, is that you're talking about DIY as both an aesthetic and as a philosophy of creation, right?

SS: Yeah.

AA: So do you see that as kind of critical to zines as well?

SS: Yeah, I think the like egalitarian nature of it is like the essence. For zines for me and like just it being connected to like community work.

AA: Yeah.

SS: Because like most of my workshops are like for like my local community because like for me, I feel most connected to teaching zines to like people that wouldn't normally know about 'em.

AA: Mm-hmm.

SS: You know, like kids, like people that are not super like into art as their, you know– that they don't have an art practice, but it's like showing people that anything can be your art practice. This is like just one way for you to do it, if that like speaks to you.

AA: Yes! Oh yes, yes. Shout it from the rooftops! That is so, so true!

SS: I know one of my friends calls me like the zine evangelist, 'cause I'll just like, I will tell anybody about them if they ask me, yeah. [laughs]

AA: [laughs] Well, you know, you're– you're so right that there is an accessibility and there is, you know, something that is not precious about a zine, right?

SS: Mm-hmm.

AA: Like you can just sit down and compile the last six photos that you have on your photo roll–

SS: Mm-hmm.

AA: –with some, you know, just really simple descriptions and you know, you don't have to make a big production out of the whole thing.

SS: Yeah.

AA: And paste it all together and take it to the Xerox machine, right?

SS: Yeah. I think the art of collecting things inside the zine is what kind of transforms it into like the special like object or like experience it is.

AA: Mm-hmm; tell me more about that.

SS: Yeah, I've been thinking about this for a while, but so when you read a book, it's like from front to back, right? So it's like you start at the first page and you end at the last page.

AA: Sure.

SS: And like that motion of going from like front to back, it's kind of like– I was talking to somebody about this in the like context of zines being like, good for processing emotions and experiences, which is what I use them for like more often than ones that I like just publish. I am having like, I don't know, something that's stressful, I'll like make a blank zine and I'll just like write in it kind of like a notebook. But it's kind of like the act of like putting it in a sequence that kind of helps it almost like congeal, you know, into something that is like, it's like less abstract than like the thoughts in your head.

AA: Mm-hmm.

SS: So it's like the process of like making the blank book and then writing things or like putting things in it. It kind of like makes it more into like something that is like more potent almost. I think it just makes it special, like, because it never existed and like now it exists and it's like, it's so much quicker than like making a book. Like I can make a book about my, like, you know, my experiences and that's great, but it's not the same as like me capturing it fresh, basically.

AA: Right. There's something about the– the immediacy of that and the– the nearness of the experience.

SS: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

AA: Is that kind of what you're– what you're getting at?

SS: Yeah. When you make a zine, there's kind of less distance between like what you're trying to capture and like having like a way to show it, almost.

AA: Mm-hmm. And that's– that's crucial to your practice in specific, right? With the, with the zines?

SS: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's what I think I kind of like, you know, capture what I was like talking about is like, you know, I feel like that's what makes a zine special to me is just like, I feel like the art of, like, the act of making a zine feels very, like, it feels very raw, kind of like in the same way poetry is.

AA: So let's talk a little bit about that.

SS: Yeah; mm-hmm.

AA: And let's talk about how your zine-making practice informs your– your poetry game, Tarot Poem Party.

SS: Yeah.

AA: Tell us about that zine, and then tell us how that grew into Tarot Poem Party.

SS: So back in 2022, I made a zine called Spirals of Lasting Hurt, and the way I explain it to people is that it's an analog generative poetry zine. It's kind of in a unique format, so it's two double-sided pages with lines of handwritten poetry that I kind of like made in like a stream of consciousness writing session. So I like had this paper laid out and I like folded it into like quarters, and then I just like started writing like in each square basically. And then like I turned it around and then like kept writing in like the other squares. And then I did it, did the same thing on the other side. So basically the cool thing about the zine is that you can layer the pages on top of each other and it creates new lines of poetry. And so you can like layer it in any way, so you can like layer it like diagonally, like vertically, like side to side, and so–

AA: Wow!

SS: Yeah, it's pretty trippy, honestly. [laughs] Like, I like even made like a– like a, how-to-use-the-zine slip because I was like, I can explain it to people, but it's like kind of like, it's still pretty abstract. So like, I actually had two versions of it. So the first version I made kind of printed weird and I was like, reprinting it for a zine fair. And then I was like: oh, let me just like copy this over. And I was just like: wait, what? I had to like label like the pages with the– the numbers because otherwise like I would've been so confused. [laughs] But anyway, I like started when I was in the process of like rewriting this, I was like, this is like a toy or like a game.

AA: Mm-hmm.

SS: Not just a straightforward reading experience.

AA: Yeah; yeah. Well, and there's definitely, you know, the tactile manipulation; like the actual physical manipulation of– of lines of poetry is so fascinating because so often poetry is experienced as, you know, ear-to-brain, or eye-to-brain, or however that is — you're not actually touching it with your hands.

SS: Mm-hmm.

AA: And I think that is– that's so cool. What drew you to that? Like this idea of the physical manipulation?

SS: Hmm. Like, so when you make a zine, especially like after you print it, you kind of have to like collate the pages so they're in the right order. And like for me that like process is like kind of confusing. So like, I would like lay them out and I'd be like: um, where– where was I? Like, I know these pages are not in the right order, but then like I had pages of a zine, like next to each other, and then I like kind of was like: oh, they like still go together. Like even though they're not in the right order necessarily.

AA: Mm. Mm-hmm.

SS: So yeah, I feel like it's probably like the process of printmaking that like inspired me, and I've definitely like seen poetry that it's like abstract and it's like not like, you know, just like a block of text that's kind of like spread out and it's like your eye has to move around. And I feel like that was like, that's always been something really interesting to me. I also like, when I look at the pages of those prints, it's kind of like reminds me of like the fortuneteller as a kid. [laughs]

AA: [laughs] Yeah!

SS: Because like, you know, you're like moving the pages around and like kind of opening things and I feel like. That also is like fun to me, because like, since I've made so many zines, I think the count was like 80 at least; Idon't know.

AA: Oh, wow.

SS: Yeah. I've made so many, because like I just do them pretty casually, yeah.

AA: Wow. I really love that idea of the– the process and that physicality there. So– so you– you make this zine–

SS: Mm-hmm.

AA: And you– you start moving the pages around, you start thinking about how there can be this tactile manipulation and this– this actual physical touch to create these new forms within the space. And then you say: Hey, guess what? Here's what I wanna do: is make a game. So what– where was that leap? Tell me about that.

SS: Honestly, I don't know, but I think like, so I noticed a thing with me is that like my projects, like they kind of tend to like bunch up with each other, you know, like in my schedule. So I think it was. 2021 after like the worst part of the beginning of the pandemic. [laughs]

AA: [laughs] Uh-huh.

SS: I had like my first zine fair, and that was really cool.

AA: The first zine fair where you were exhibiting?

SS: Oh, the first zine fair that I organized.

AA: Oh! Oh, okay! Wow.

SS: Mm-hmm.

AA: That's a big job! [laughs]

SS: [laughs] Yeah. I honestly don't know how I did it. Like I did it pretty solo. I mean, I did get a lot of help from other people, but I was like coordinating it all. So I think like after that I was like inspired to do like another one, and I actually had like an open call for like a zine called Space for Black Hair.

AA: Mm-hmm.

SS: And like I organized it, I put it all together and we had like a release party in December 2021. And it was like, around that time was like when I started like coming up with the idea for like Tarot Poem Party. I think I was like really wanting like that kind of social feel of like a zine fair, but like in a different format almost.

AA: Mm-hmm.

SS: Because like, I really love board games, but during the like start of the pandemic, I was like kind of like I have all these board games, but like no one to play them with and like, oh, I also wanna write, but I have like no one to write with. So I'm just like, yeah. They're like the same kind of issue. And I was just like: I wonder if there's like a way that I can like combine these two things?

AA: And what drew you to poetry in specific?

SS: Um, I think I also like started like getting into, like making music around that same time my creative like works, they all kind of center around like events or like, just kind of like concentrations of like creative energy.

AA: Mm-hmm.

SS: So when I like started making music, like I was like: okay, like, so making lyrics for music, that's like basically poetry, right?

AA: Mm-hmm.

SS: So I started like getting back into it and like reading it because like I, you know, like most like teenagers, like poetry is like, it's like a good emotional, creative outlet. So I was like, I took a break from it, 'cause I was like: I'm tired of, you know, writing all the sad, sad, sad poetry. [laughs]

AA: [laughs] Mm-hmm; mm-hmm.

SS: So I was just like, uh, then I was like: okay, like, you know, if I'm making music, I like, might as well pick it up again. Like, I'm probably better now. I'm probably less, less, uh, I'm probably less, uh, into ruminating. [laughs]

AA: [laughs] Less angsty, maybe?

SS: [laughs] Yeah, slightly less angsty. [laughs] So, I feel like for me, poetry is like, I don't know, it goes along with zine-making too. You know, I was talking about zines as like kind of a container for like emotions and like ideas and I was like, poetry is the same thing. So I probably started making like poetry zines and like also looking back at my old poetry and I was just like, for me the ideas like kind of start sticking together even if they're not quite like similar, kind of like you were talking about live coding and like origami, because it's like if you think about something for a while, it's like easy to make the connections between like two things.

AA: Yeah; yeah. So, why tarot and poetry together, speaking of connections?

SS: I mean I think tarot is like, it's a very abstract concept and like art form. I got my first tarot deck around like 2021 I think, and I like really loved it, but I like didn't really know how to like interpret the cards for like reading spreads and things like that. So, you know, I would get frustrated and I would like look up the meetings online, but I would like forget. You know, you know the meanings between like looking at them and like doing a reading. So I was like making like little note cards for each meeting and like, I think like since I wanted to have like a social writing game and I was like, poetry is like less intimidating also than like, I don't know, I don't even know. Like imagine a novel writing game. [laughs]

AA: [laughs] No thanks. No, that's a lot. That's a lot to ask.

SS: [laughs] Yeah. Like poetry is bite-size enough to capture essence of like a tarot card meaning. Like they kind of clicked together almost.

AA: Yeah; yeah. So let's kind of back up a little bit. Can you just give us the elevator pitch of what it is to play Tarot Poem Party?

SS: Yeah, definitely! [laughs]

AA: Before we get too deep into these, uh, these connections. [laughs]

SS: [laughs] I know we're like, so into like micro-analyzing. Like– like what's the game?

AA: [laughs]

SS: Okay. So, um, yeah, so Tarot Poem Party is a game where you write poems with your friends using tarot cards as prompts. It's also a tarot deck and a creative tool. So each of the minor arcana cards, they have a set of three words that correspond to like each tarot card. And like you use those words to like write your poems. You can use multiple cards to make like a longer poem. So like the more words you use, the more points you get. And like, you know, that allows you to like use special abilities in the game to kind of like, get more points. The major arcana are like the kind of roadblock cards; I call them like chance cards. So it's like when you start your turn, you like draw a card and then like sometimes major arcana cards will like pop up and it'll be like– kind of shake things up. You kind of have to like start strategizing. It's not just like a straight poem-writing game, and I feel like that kind of makes it more inviting to like people that aren't really like– people that write, or like don't really like play like card games or like are kind of intimidated by 'em, so.

AA: Mm-hmm. Well, and you're kind of alluding to what I was talking about earlier with this philosophy that you and I share about opening up poetry as a way to express one's self.

SS: Yeah.

AA: And not get so bogged down in the history and the– the, kind of, the intensity of the reputation that poetry has in the literary cannon, right?

SS: Mm-hmm. Definitely.

AA: But I love what you were saying earlier too, about how, you know– imagine a novel writing game, right? Like poetry is definitely something that is more bite-sized and more– more accessible just by virtue of its smallness, right?

SS: Yeah. Like poetry is more dense. It's like even more like concentrated and like magnified, you know, the experience of it. I think it's definitely more approachable. That's kind of like the same, same way I like, wanna like facilitate zine-making for people.

AA: Yeah. It's a– it's a community-based thing.

SS: Yeah.

AA: And collaboration; and, like, sharing.

SS: I feel like everyone benefits from like writing being less intimidating because I think, you know, also most people's experience of like writing in high school or like, you know, even younger where you're like forced to like make essays about things you don't care about– [laughs]

AA: [laughs]

SS: –or like, you know, read very like old, like not relevant books when you'd rather be like reading something that actually is like, you wanna learn more about.

AA: Mm-hmm.

SS: So it's kind of like coming back to like, what's the important thing about poetry or like creative practices.

AA: Mm-hmm. What is important about poetry to you?

SS: There's definitely an abstractness to poetry. Even if you use words that are kind of more common language, you know, people have the image that you have to use very like complex words. So there's like the abstractness of like choosing what words you wanna use. And then there's also like trying to figure out how to capture like what you wanna say in ways that like people will understand what you're talking about. You know, that space in between, and like when you like read poetry, your brain starts bringing up images and like, trying to find a way to make those words make sense in that context.

AA: Mm-hmm.

SS: You've probably never seen those words in that context before.

AA: Yeah. And you're– you're giving people a way to, uh, manifest that experience with Tarot Poem Party.

SS: I feel like making this game, I– it's like me putting all these like abstract ideas together and like now, like, you know, if I made a game and like this card deck, I don't have to be there when people are like, you know, making these connections and like making things.

AA: Yeah.

SS: So it's kind of like I'm facilitating it. It feels very like, good to feel like people can like use it and like interact with it and like make their own experiences with it because like, this is like my first game ever. [laughs] Like I've never made a game.

AA: Yeah!

SS: Like I was never interested in making a game, but it was like I was trying to use a game as like a tool to like solve my problems of like getting the social feel of a zine fair or like the community essence of what a zine fair means to me. And like also having like a more social way to like write and create. So I think it's just like all about showing, like, for me that like, if you ever like wanna make something, find a way to make it work for you. Like find a way to like be creative in a way that feels like it's for you, not just because there's like a certain way that it feels like you have to do it.

AA: Yeah! Ugh, you are the best spokesperson for this podcast, I tell you. [laughs]

SS: [laughs] Yeah; yeah! Your podcast is like, it's like, it captures like the essence like, 'cause you know, the season's about play and I feel like, honestly like, you know, most of the stuff I do is about like playing and like trying to be in that mind space of openness and joy.

AA: Yeah. Talk a little bit more about that, and this concept of play as practice, because yeah: you do a lot of that play in your work.

SS: Yeah. If I'm making things and I'm not enjoying it, then you know, what's the point of making it? I feel like there's like a concept of art being like very formal and like, kind of like joyless. [laughs]

AA: [laughs] Yeah.

SS: But it's, I think it's like that way because like we have like institutions, like museums and like things that, like most people like can't see themselves in. But our whole culture is like founded on like art and every single thing we like do, it's like built by an artist or like someone that is like creative. So it's like I like having like all these like options for like tools and like mediums because like that makes me like have to be in a space to figure out how they all work together.

AA: Mm-hmm.

SS: And I have a lot of supplies and stuff, and like, you know, try to not be wasteful. I try and like see like: oh, you know, I can use like my paper for zines, but I can also also like use 'em to like make earrings or like, I can also like use this paper like for like installations or like printmaking. So I think those like connections, like it's like playing and like, I don't know, I just like, trying to like, make my creativity feel joyful since I'm– I'm a professional artist too, like, you know, it does end up feeling like work sometimes, but like, you know, reconnecting to that and not feeling like it's only admin stuff– [laughs]

AA: [laughs] Right!

SS: –is like I– that it's– it's really important to me.

[Music break]

AA: So what does your creative practice look like? You know, what's a– what's a day in the life of Sabrina Sims making stuff?

SS: You know, I have ADHD, and I also like am autistic too, and just like all kinds of fun, like neurodivergent stuff. [laughs] So I bounce between projects.

AA: Mm-hmm.

SS: So it's like maybe like I'll be working on a zine, and then like I'll hit a roadblock and then I'll like, start working on stuff for my game or like I'll answer an email. Rotating through things, it kind of keeps it fresh for me and that process actually like helps me like connect different concepts together for me. Like the processes that I was like telling you about, about the zine fairs and like workshops and like, you know, my card game and like the zines, like for me that's like all stuff I was like bouncing around with in a short amount of time. And they kind of end up taking on like characteristics, like each project ends up kind of like bleeding into each other.

AA: Yeah.

SS: And it's just kind of like I use, since I use a bunch of different mediums, when I select a project, it's like: what tool is like gonna help bring across like what I'm trying to convey?

AA: Right. 'Cause you do installation work too, right?

SS: Yeah, I've been doing textile and kind of like, yeah, mixed media installations. That's also like a pretty new thing to me. I think I started doing like installations like last year. That's even more 3-D than like zine-making to me. I've actually like incorporated zines into my installations. I always like that challenge of seeing how many like mediums I can layer with each other because I think that creates like the emotional depth to it.

AA: Yeah. Tell me a little bit about that: creating that emotion within the– the installation across media.

SS: Yeah, so it's like my installation series, it's called Soft Synth Poems. So the concept is trying to convey like softness as like a tactile quality and like, uh, emotional quality. 'Cause I mostly use like ribbons, tulles, like– and like sheer iridescent fabrics,  and like hang them and layer them on, like whatever space that I'm like using, I can use those materials to like convey softness, you know, you can feel it, you can actually touch the ribbon, like, oh, this is soft. I also use a lot of like specific colors. To like convey like softness; so like pink, it's like a conventionally like soft-slash-feminine color. And then I'll use like neon, like neon yellow. That's not conventionally like soft color, but the way it contrasts with the pink or like, you know, whatever other colors I use, you kind of have to like figure out what's the intersection like between those two things and like, The contrast like can like highlight each material or like part that I use.

AA: You work a lot in context; I'm realizing that you create a lot of contextual dissonance, almost — or what we perceive initially as contextual dissonance — but you're kind of inviting people to jump in and say: but where are the ties, and where is the– the connection point?

SS: Yeah, and that's why I love that you like mentioned like the connection between like origami and live coding, because it's like when people tell me about my work, you know, they have a different perspective than I do.

AA: Yeah.

SS: That's like, wow, like you perceived it in a way that I wasn't thinking about it. And then that's– I like start to think about: okay, so like I wonder what would create that thought? And then like, I feel like that always like makes me really happy because like my art is not just about me. It's like how other people can relate to it. 'Cause like I know whenever I go to an installation or like a gallery or like a show, like I always like get super inspired by it. I don't, I think people don't realize that that's like– that's like a huge part of being able to make things that you never imagined, you know, you would.

AA: Is seeing other people's work?

SS: Yeah. Mm-hmm. I would never think that I would have designed a game or like done an installation series or even like done live coding. I was just like, you know, let me try something new. And then I was just like: oh, wow. I like connect to this in a really deep level. You know, how can I make this, like, how can I put my own spin on it?

AA: Mm-hmm. We've made so many references to live coding and I don't know if everyone knows what that is. I had no idea what it was until, you know, you and I got connected–

SS: Yeah.

AA: –and I still obviously don't really know what it is; I could just see it, uh, in– in practice. But can you tell us what live coding is?

SS: Yeah. It's like, so like, it's– it's like– it's like you can't really figure out what it means, like on the surface. [laughs]

AA: [laughs] Yeah.

SS: So live coding– live coding is making music and visuals and like audio visual experiences with code.

AA: Mm-hmm.

SS: So I make live coded music and like visuals for like performances and like installations. So live coding is like a very like DIY space, like zines are, and there's like a really cool community here in like New York City, and it's nice because like live coding is kind of centered on like open source technology. So live coding is not like software people normally use unless they're like a developer, like a tech developer or like, you know, they work in like software.

AA: Mm-hmm.

SS: So it's like kind of using these like, tools that people cobble together by like making their own code and using it for like, you know, shows and like for entertainment when it's like normally used for like databases and like just complicated like tech infrastructure things. [laughs]

AA: [laughs] Right; right! And so there are two things that I wanna know about this, and the first one is: how did you get into this, and did you teach yourself? Because everything that I know about you and that we've talked about so far is that you're an artist.

SS: Mm-hmm.

AA: And you've done “art stuff” in your schooling and in your life. And then there's this thing where you sit down in front of a machine, and start entering lines of code. So how on earth did you get involved in this? [laughs]

SS: [laughs] Yeah, honestly, like most of the stuff that I do, I learned it from someone else or like I just like started digging for resources and I like found something good

AA: Uh-huh.

SS: So I learned about live coding at a fair called Press Play back in 2019, I think. It was like a local fair in New York, and like they had a lot of like zine and like small press people. And they also had a lot of like, people that did tech stuff like robotics and like makerspace, like electronic things.

AA: Okay.

SS: So I found out about like live coding at a table they had there. I never like did anything with it, but then like when I started wanting to do more music stuff, I found it again somehow. I think 'cause like I met a live coder, like at a zine fair I was at and they're like: hey, like I like your work. Then they invited me to like a jam session and I like brought my synthesizer that I like had just got, and then I like saw people like projecting like code kind of like abstract, swirly like visuals onto like this apartment wall and I was just like: oh, this is like thing that I like found out about a few years ago, but never did anything with it. [laughs]

AA: [laughs] That is so fascinating. It's like this weird digital psychedelia thing, 'cause you're kind of– you're understanding my second question, which is: what does it look like? [laughs]

SS: [laughs] It's different for everybody, but for me, like I just recently started using this software called Hydra.

AA: Uh-huh.

SS: And it's a browser-based live coding software, and it's basically like making like video art. So live coding is like video art and like sound art.

AA: Mm-hmm.

SS: Honestly, it's not only about the code, it's like more about what you can achieve with the code. So for me, I like doing watercolor, like flowy, like visuals. And like recently I just did a show at the space called Wonderville. I and one of my friends, they were doing like bouncy, like kind of dance music with kind of like a dark feel to it. And then behind us I was like doing like watercolory, you know, like, like sand art?

AA: Yeah!

SS: Kinda looks like that. And I was like controlling it by using Hydra, which it kind of glitches whatever you put into it. It was capturing what I was doing in Electric Zine Maker, putting it into Hydra, and then the code that I was using was trying to like alter, like the way it was moving around what I was doing on the other screen.

AA: Wow. Wow.

SS: Yeah. You're gonna have to put a video in. [laughs]

AA: [laughs] Yeah, so it’s like glitch art. It's like psychedelic. It is– it can be beautiful and watercolory and wavy and sand arty–

SS: And yeah, it can be like disturbing too. [laughs]

AA: [laughs] Mm-hmm.

SS: Which is like, live coding takes on like the personality, you know, people will make their software or like their code suited to like how they work. You know, sometimes there's like a lot of friction because like, you know, these things are not made for, that, they're not made for like performances.

AA: Mm-hmm.

SS: But it's because like community is like pretty small and like we know that this is like niche, you know, we need to like share our resources and that's like what makes it special because like if we didn't share this stuff, We wouldn't be able to make these like cool art pieces basically.

AA: Mm-hmm. We've just been talking about all these wonderful, amazing things, and everything you do comes back to community, I've– I've learned, for you.

SS: Yeah, definitely.

AA: And sharing resources and that DIY philosophy of taking something and– and applying it to a different purpose than what it is purpose-built for.

SS: Definitely. I've always been about like using what resources I have. Also like now that I'm thinking about it, you know, my textile installations when I was in high school, I made bows and like hair accessories for myself. I always used to love going to like fabric stores and like touching all the fabric, buying ribbon and stuff. And then I'm like: oh, like I'm doing this like right now. Because that's something I was like familiar with. I realize that all these like things, they're like so interconnected. Here in the city, like the live coders know, like, the zine makers; the installation people like, you know, they do small press stuff too.

AA: Uh-huh.

SS: So it's like once I started talking to more people and like being involved, it kind of like started falling together and that like also made it easier for me to connect these things together. So something that felt like good to me.

AA: Mm-hmm. What's inspiring you creatively right now? Like books or movies or games, or you know, other creators? Who would you call out or what would you call out?

SS: I would say I always get really inspired by like plants and like flowers. It reminds me of like, The awe of existing, like it always like gives me a little bit more like creative fuel to just like go outside.

AA: Mm-hmm.

SS: And I've also like been trying to bring like my art supplies outside and like draw and like carry around my sketchbook. And I've been thinking a lot about like the game Thirsty Sword Lesbians.

AA: Mm-hmm; by April Kit Walsh.

SS: Yeah. That was like honestly a huge inspiration behind my game because I actually like, so, and me trying to find resources about card making, I couldn't find that many. Honestly. I think I asked on like, At the Big Bad Con Discord, and I was like: hey, are there any like Discords, like for game making? And I think April, or like one of the other admin, they were like: hey, you wanna join like the Thirsty Sword lesbians like Discord? And I'm like, sure. I don't know what that is, but I'm like, I'll join! [laughs]

AA: [laughs]

SS: Because like, like you guys seem like you're welcoming. And like, I'm like pretty active, but they're really like encouraging to people that wanna make their own games. I feel like that was the thing I really needed because it's like most of my other friends don't make games, so it was like I needed a space to be like: okay; yeah; like we have like a common language of game design.

AA: Yeah; yeah!

SS: Especially since I didn't know what I was doing. [laughs]

AA: [laughs] Yeah.

SS: So, but also like, I use a lot of like the vibe of the game. You know, I'm bi and like, I was just like: wow, that's like so great that like, that there's like a game just like centered on like queer experiences, especially like lesbian experiences.

AA: Yeah.

SS: And it just makes me so happy that like, that the– that it exists and like there's like a community around it because like, I didn't know, there wasn't like– that's what I needed. Everyone like was so encouraging and like they actually like really liked DIY.

AA: Yeah; yeah! That's awesome. They're good people over there.

SS: I know, yeah! They really are.

AA: So thank you so much for joining me today, Sabrina. This has just been so, so fun and you are truly, uh, just such an incredible creator and somebody who has a wonderful voice in– in this industry and in many industries because you are– you are a Renaissance woman, that's for sure. [laughs]

SS: [laughs] Yeah. I love being involved in lots of things. [laughs]

AA: [laughs] Yeah. So, um, thank you. But before we go, is there anything you wanna shout out? Anything you wanna hype up? And also where can we find you online?

SS: Yeah, thanks so much. My website is, starly art dot studio, that's like my main website and I have all like my links and stuff there, and I have my like development logs for the game. And yeah, just like– just like follow me on my social media, and I have like a newsletter coming out. The link’s on my website. My Instagram is starlyartstudio. And I have an Itch page: that's starlybri, and yeah, those are like my main two things.

AA: Great. Yeah, and I'll link those in the show notes too–

SS: Awesome.

AA: –so there will be direct links as well.

SS: Yeah, thanks so much.

AA: Oh, thank you!

SS: I'm so happy that I could be part of Little Oracles.

AA: Oh, well, Little Oracles is very happy that you could be part of her! [laughs] So, yeah.

SS: Thank you!

AA: Yeah! You can follow Little Oracles on Instagram (at) littleoracles. Check out the blog at little oracles dot com for more big book energy and creativity content. And as always, take care, keep creating, and stay divine.

[Outro music]

[Secret outtake]

AA: You're just such an inspiration to me, Sabrina. I just love talking to you. 

SS: Me too! I love talking to you, too. I was super like excited when I met you, 'cause I'm like: wow, someone's doing this like niche like poetry game. 

AA: Right! [laughs] 

SS: I'm like, okay. Like someone gets it. I don't know if I talked to like someone else about this, they would be like: huh. 

AA: [laughs]