S02:E19 | Hauntings II with Kristen O'Neal: The Comfort of Horror

Welcome to a very special horror-forward Creative Chat with the amazing Kristen O'Neal: author of Lycanthropy and Other Chronic Illnesses, and the co-creator of the Thin Places Radio podcast (TPR).

After an amazing chat with Kristen and her TPR collaborator Kaitlin Bruder back in Season One, I wanted to invite her back on the podcast to talk more about why she finds comfort in horror, her thoughts on the emerging (and nebulous) genre of "cozy horror," and what's haunting her right now, horror-wise — in fact, the second half of this chat is a veritable what's-what of horror film recommendations. (CW: Mentions of body horror; medical talk; horror films and imagery with moderate detail.)

Kristen is an unmitigated delight; I'm so glad to share our conversation with all of you. Enjoy, and, as always, take care, keep creating, and stay divine.

Resources

• Kristen's links | Website: kristenonealwrites.com; Instagram: @discountgoblin; Thin Places Radio: Spotify (and anywhere else you get pods)
• Lycanthropy and Other Chronic Illnesses by Kristen O'Neal
• The Thin Places Radio episode + my extreme paean to TPR | S01:E13 | Creative Chat with Thin Places Radio: The Lure of Liminality, Asynchronous Connection, & Top Cryptids
• Media discussed | The Babadook (film, 2014); His House (film, 2020); The Ring (film, 2002); Saw (film franchise, 2004-); The Ritual (film, 2017); Annihilation (film, 2018); Stephen Graham Jones (author) | The Exorcist (film, 1973); Night of the Living Dead (film, 1968); Possession (film, 1981); Alien (film, 1979); The Birds (film, 1963); Get Out (film, 2017); Nope (film, 2022); Lake Mungo (film, 2008)

IG: @littleoracles

Transcript

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[Intro music]

Allison Arth: Hi everybody, and welcome to the Little Oracles podcast, an oracle for the everyday creative. I’m Allison Arth. I want to welcome you all to another Creative Chat, part of our special month-long Hauntings micro-series. And today, I am thrilled to welcome back to the show, writer and author of Lycanthropy and Other Chronic Illnesses, and the co-creator of the outstanding Thin Places Radio podcast–

Kristen O’Neal: Stop! [chuckles]

AA: Kristen O'Neal. Kristen, thank you so much for coming back on this little show!

KO: I'm excited to be back! Thanks for having me again.

AA: Yeah; yeah; you bet! So we're doing a little Hauntings micro-series for the month of October. So I wanted to get people on who are excited about those ooky-spooky, strange things. And I thought you would be an ideal candidate for this.

KO: Thank you; oh, I was like: oh, no one can see me waggling my eyebrows right now. [laughs]

AA: Yeah, it is an– it is an audio format. [chuckles]

KO: [chuckles] Yeah, yeah.

AA: So as I– as I mentioned, you've been on the show before with your Thin Places Radio — or TPR; we might refer to it as TPR going forward — but your co-creator, Kaitlin Bruder—

KO: Yeah!

AA: –Um, and I'm going to link that episode in the show notes so everybody can go listen; I just loved that chat — but the thing that I learned during that episode was you kind of operate in and thrive in these horror-based or horror-adjacent spaces. You know, you're this huge fan of cryptids–

KO: [laughs] Yes.

AA: [chuckles] –we talked about that at the end of the show; um, the horror genre in film, especially; uh, your projects, particularly your novel, Lycanthropy and Other Chronic Illnesses; and your podcast, Thin Places Radio: they share some commonalities with horror, right? And so I would really love to know, you know, when did you get into horror, and, you know, what was your gateway to the genre, and like, why did it draw you in?

KO: So like, what's interesting about that is like– it's like an always and not at all an always thing. [laughs]

AA: [laughs]

KO: It's really odd because, like, horror itself, like, as in like, me being a person who goes, “Oh, I really enjoy horror,” didn't happen until I was probably a teenager.

AA: Oh!

KO: My dad has this really funny thing that he does where he goes, “Oh, I hate horror movies, but I love thrillers.” Because he– he thinks in his mind that horror movies are, like, slashers, or, like, you know, gore-related, or any of that kind of stuff. And I did get him to watch Nope with me, but it's not a horror movie, which frankly, I– I would consider Nope a monster movie. The thing about horror that I really enjoy is that there's so many little different offshoots and categories for it, which is really fun. [laughs] And like, yeah, so many of those different layers.

AA: Yeah, yeah.

KO: I think a lot of the stuff that I make, I wouldn't really call horror. Or I may say, yeah, more horror-adjacent, or horror elements. But yeah, I have always loved that kind of stuff. I don't remember if I told you this, when I was in seventh grade, I wrote a horror comedy script called The Librarian and I tried to get all of my friends to film it with me. [laughs]

AA: [laughs] Oh my god.

KO: My brother was gonna play every dead body. [laughs]

AA: [laughs] Is there a reason for that? Did that speak to him?

KO: He wanted to, desperately. Yeah, that was a him thing. So, you know, I'm like, maybe this wasn't completely out of– out of nowhere. [laughs] But, I think, yeah; I always loved really spooky things. I love ghost stories. I love monsters. Or, like, we always had, you know, the, a little, like, collection of spooky stories for kids. And there was always the one about the girl who had the ribbon around her neck, and if you pulled it off, her head fell off. [chuckles]

AA: That one– that one still haunts me to this day, I swear. [chuckles]

KO: I love it. So I loved all of that kind of stuff. But I think, in my mind, horror was some untouchable other thing than these, like, really creepy spooky things that I already really enjoyed. So I– I think I, I just kind of assumed I would be scared of it. And so I had kind of been like, “Oh, well, that's probably scary.” Like, it was probably too scary for me. Until my brother actually got me; he knew exactly what was going to get me. Um, he's like, “Let's watch the Babadook.” And I was like, “Oh, isn't that scary?” And he was like, “Well, yeah,” but he goes, “it's all a metaphor for grief!” [laughs]

AA: [laughs]

KO: And I'm like, “Oh, well, let's watch it!” And I had the time of my life.

AA: Yeah.

KO: And then I, yeah, I got more into horror after that. ’Cause I'm like, “Oh, I really enjoy it. I'm having a great time.”

AA: I think what you're saying about this horror adjacency, right; like this– it's this idea that there are horror elements in the things that you do and the things that you like, but aren't necessarily that slasher thing and that gore, and that, like, body horror as we think of it, right?

KO: For me, I also think that horror is a structural thing, which is actually to its benefit.

AA: Tell me more about that.

KO: I got in a huge argument — [laughs] not a real argument — I got in a fight with one of my good friends, um, because he was saying that Silence of the Lambs is a horror movie, and I was saying it is not.

AA: Oh!

KO: Which I stand by.

AA: Explain that to me.

KO: Structurally, I think that it is more of a thriller, or more of a, like, a mystery, or, like, cat-and-mouse kind of a thing.

AA: Mm-hmm.

KO: I– I do realize that a guy's face gets ripped off at the end– [laughs]

AA: [laughs]

KO: –but I don't think that just because something is scary, that makes it horror. I think there's a lot with the structure of how it's laid out and like how it progresses, especially. And how things, like, ratchet up along the course of the narrative that contribute to horror. I think it's about the elevation.

AA: Yeah, the rising action up until some big climax that then releases, effectively.

KO: Exactly.

AA: So, this thing that you're saying about the Babadook being this metaphor for grief, I'm wondering if that is kind of where that interest in horror lies for you, when horror becomes some kind of metaphor. Yeah, so is that the idea? It's– it's a stand-in, almost?

KO: Yeah, it's not the only draw for me, but I think something that's actually very strong and really powerful about genre fiction. People can be rude about genre fiction or be like, you know, on the surface level, be like, “Oh, actually, literary fiction is where you get these deep metaphors; where you get these really meaningful things,” but I think something I really love about genre fiction, especially horror and especially sci-fi, is that there's so much space to put in just really clear metaphors, and just really, I mean, really over the top metaphors too, [laughs] but that can be really fun. Like, I really, I kind of love when something can kind of smack you upside the head. But yeah, there's something very primal about horror, I think, that lends it also to that, like, metaphorical strength. If you want to put that in, right? And that's what's nice about it, too, ’cause like, I mentioned slashers earlier, being like: oh, well not all horror are slashers. I like slashers too though, right? Like, Friday the 13th is great. Even though it doesn't have, necessarily, that, like, “Oh, this is all a metaphor for X, Y, Z.” You can read stuff into it if you want to, but I enjoy that too, so.

AA: Yeah; I love what you're saying about using genre fiction as this catalyst or this vehicle for communicating these things, moreso than something that is considered, you know, literary fiction, like you said; because I think there is so much chance for a literary fiction piece or something with that kind of structure or that narrative arc or those representational elements to just kind of– you– you kind of miss it in all of the cinema verite of it, or the way that the poetry of the language is, if it's a book or something. And with genre fiction, you can kind of defocus your eyes, almost, and, you know, you can remove that veneer of genre and just, like, kind of dig into the– the quote-unquote “real” message.

KO: Yeah, exactly. And I think with something more like literary — I mean, and this is a generalization, obviously — um, but I think sometimes with something literary, it's– it's like a landscape, right? And you find things in this landscape and they're making this, you know, wider, broader thing sometimes, but again, it depends on the thing. But with– with genre, it's like a deep well, or like a, like a house, or, you know what I mean?

AA: Yeah, yeah.

KO: It's something that its structure is so clear that I think it gives you a lot of room to move around inside of, or go deep into.

AA: Right. That is a beautiful metaphor right there.

KO: [laughs] Thanks! I'm sure immediately now I'm thinking of a bunch of exceptions to what I've just said.

AA: [laughs] Well, of course, of course. That's how we think, right? So, clearly horror is influencing you as a creator. And, you know, we– we have these horror-adjacent things that you're working on: TPR, and, you know, your book. And I know that you're doing other writing projects and other types of creative projects.

KO: That I can’t share. [laughs]

AA: [laughs] Some that you can't share here, but, uh, someday– someday soon. So part of the reason that I really wanted to bring you back is because during our first chat, which is Season One, Episode 13 — just an amazing episode; you and Kaitlin were so great to have on — but you said this really interesting thing. You said: “There's something so comforting about horror.” And we've talked about this, like, kind of, offline a little bit, and I'm just– I'm so curious: like, where are you finding that comfort? Is it, like, tropes and story arcs? Is it character archetypes? Is it settings? You know, is it– is it aesthetics? Like, what is it that you're finding so comforting about this genre that is usually there to, you know, frighten people, make them scared to go outside their house or whatever–

KO: Yeah. What– what is so funny about that–

AA: –or stay in their house! [laughs]

KO: [laughs] Right? Exactly: you can't go anywhere. [laughs] You take it with you! What is so funny about that is, like, you did– you did– you, like, asked me that, like, after the– after. And I literally have been thinking of it since then. [laughs] I'm like, why do I, like, why do I find it so comforting? Because my dad's asked me that too. He came in, I was like, “I'm decompressing.” Like, he was like, “Oh yeah. Like, what are you watching?” I was like, “The Ring?” [laughs] He was like, “What do you mean?”

AA: [laughs] Decompressing with The Ring.

KO: [laughs] Literally, I mean, yeah, like, yes. Uh, and he was like, “Well, like, do you find it comforting because they're having a worse time than you are?” [laughs] I was like, “No, I don't– I don't think that's it.” I don't think it's this, like, “Ha!” You know, finally someone having a worse day than me cutting his own foot off. (That was Saw, that was not The Ring.) But, yeah, I have been thinking about it since then, and I think it is all those things that you've mentioned, like, especially, like– like I said, like, it's this, like, very core thing, and so you can get these archetypes that are really obvious, and I, I enjoy that. I also like the aesthetic part of it; I love a good monster design, like, The Ritual, um, is a movie — I thought it was just okay; I just, I think there are certain plot elements that could have been tightened up — but the visuals of that movie are astounding. Especially when it's like– there's moments where the protagonist is remembering something that happened in a convenience store, but when he is in the forest, but you see elements of the convenience store, like, in the — I mean, yeah, TPR, obviously. [laughs] I thought that was cool.

AA: This blending–

KO: That overlap, yeah.

AA: –between what is and what might be.

KO. Exactly. But the monster design as well is fucking ace!

AA: It is!

KO: It's so good. It's everything. Or like, Annihilation, I really love the guys, like, fused to the wall of that swimming pool.

AA: You know, it's funny though, because I would never in a million years say that Annihilation is a horror movie, but you're absolutely right: there are these horror elements. And honestly, Annihilation contains possibly the most harrowing scene I have ever seen — I'm not going to spoil it for anybody who hasn't seen it — but that moment is just so deeply affecting; but it's– but it's not a horror movie.

KO: No, Annihilation is about marriage. [chuckles]

AA: Yes. So a metaphor for a crumbling marriage, maybe. [chuckles]

KO: Or one that's coming back together in a different way.

AA: There's just this, uh– this really interesting interplay, you know, because the dissolution of a marriage is a grieving process, right? Losing someone, as with the Babadook or whatever, that's, uh, that's a grieving process. And it makes me wonder how much of horror is ultimately, when you boil it down, an exploration of grief in some way.

KO: So much. And that really compels me. I find that really interesting. And like, there's some movies too that, like, the griefs don't have to be specific to that. I do think a lot of horror is about grief, but the losses can be different losses.

AA: What do you mean by that?

KO: So it's not always, like, death that is the grief in a horror movie, which I really appreciate. Like, it can– it can be a lot of different things.

AA: Yeah.

KO: I was thinking of– have you seen His House?

AA: No.

KO: It's unbelievably good. Death is a part of that one, but it's– it's about having to flee your country and, like, the things that happened. So basically, like, the premise of His House is this, this couple who escaped Sudan, and then they're trying to adjust to, like, refugee life in this small town in England. And so, they have been assigned to this house, they can't leave it, because there's all these rules and regulations right?

AA: Oh.

KO: Everybody's treating them strangely, and so it's a haunted house movie where there's actually a really good reason why they can't leave.

AA: Oh, that's fascinating.

KO: That it's speaking to the reality of, like, this real life horror. I think that's the real, like, root reason why I think horror is comforting: because it's not lying to you. Not that other movies are, or like other genres are. You know, I'm not gonna be like, “Oh yeah, romance: not real!” [laughs] Like, obviously there are– there are elements of life that are reflected in all these other things, but I think something really– that I find really comforting about horror is it's, like, things are bad; like, things are genuinely bad here. And no matter the direction that that ends up going in, all of the possible outcomes of that, I actually can find comfort in, right?

AA: Yeah.

KO: Where if it's– it's everything is bad, and you don't make it out, right? Like the bad thing wins? That's cathartic. It's– it's comforting, too, because it's like, even in the midst of that, everybody tried; like, they really fought for it or the other end of it, right? If it's the final girl or whoever solves it, figures it out, saves the day, right? Cathartic because it's like: it was really hard– it was really hard to get to that point.

AA: Yeah.

KO: Or like the mixed bag in the middle, of, like, somebody makes the sacrifice, or, you know, it's over, but things are never going to be the same is like: yeah; that's– that's it; yeah, things happen.

AA: That's just kind of life, I guess. [laughs]

KO: [laughs] Yeah, my co-worker just said something to me recently that I was like: whoa. I don't remember, we were talking about something — some book or some genre thing, and about, like, tragic backstories and my co-worker was like, “Well, like, everybody has a tragic backstory if you live long enough to have one.”

AA: Wow!

KO: And I was like, “Dang! Yeah! Like, yeah, that's true!” [laughs]

AA: Let’s get this co-worker on the podcast. That's fascinating. [laughs]

KO: Yeah! [laughs] Honestly, yeah. I know; I was like: yeah, you're completely right. But it's true.

AA: Yeah, I guess there's a reason that, uh, the masks of comedy and tragedy are as old as they are, right?

KO: Yeah.

AA: These are the fundaments of humanity and of living in the world.

KO: Yeah.

AA: So we're talking about genre, and something that I really wanted to discuss with you also is this kind of emerging genre of cozy horror, which I feel like doesn't have a lot of– it doesn't have a lot of net around it yet.

KO: It's not even really a thing; yeah, yeah, yeah. [laughs]

AA: [laughs] It is very nebulous at this moment in time.

KO: Yes.

AA: But I– I'm just curious: like, what is your experience with the concept of cozy horror? Would you consider, you know, these horror-adjacent things that we've mentioned already — the things that you work on — is that cozy? Is that–

KO: Right? That's, exactly– like, that's– yes. [laughs] I was gonna say, I can't not like cozy horror, because like, half of what I– most of what I write could probably be considered it. Um, but I– I am really curious, like, what people even think is the definition of it, because it's– I hear it a lot, and I'm like: what even does that mean? Like, I guess there's something with horror elements that is not necessarily– have that same– same stakes, or the same urgency, or, like, the same level of scariness. But I think that's something that has existed for a long time. Uh, yeah, it's a lot of what I work on, it's a lot of like, you know, what I read as a child, or like, anything that's spooky. I was like, I feel like that's kind of already the word for it, right? Is like, things that are– kind of have those elements in it.

AA: Mm-hmm.

KO: Because I think anything that would be quote-unquote “cozy horror,” I'm like, well, what is it, though? Like, then– like, I feel like there is some other underlying genre to it, right?

AA: Right, right.

KO: Like, is it a comedy? Is it– yeah; like, what else is it?

AA: Right. It does feel a little bit like a marketplace label, right? Like something that is going to draw people in.

KO: Exactly. It feels less like a structural thing or like a content thing, and more like a marketing thing, I guess?

AA: Mm-hmm. I don't know; I personally am very drawn to the juxtaposition that lies within this concept, right? Like, whether or not it is a “real thing,” quote-unquote, or it's something that people should get behind, or if it's just a marketplace thing, in a way, to drive capitalism — that is not necessarily what interests me, or attracts me to this idea. But I love the idea of coziness and closeness and warmth within something that is traditionally seen as very cold or very antiseptic or very, like, weird and strange.

KO: I think– yes. The thing I wonder about that, though, is like, I feel like that could go one of two ways. Where it's like, if you're trying to make horror cozy by taking out some of the fundamental elements, versus, like, if you are not having it be, like, absolutely terrifying-scary, but still including some of those fundamental elements of it. Do you know what I mean? Because like, I think the stuff that I find comforting about it is the inclusion of these like, you know, this slight body horror; this kind of frightening, like, archetype. I think the comfort is inherent in those things.

AA: I like this reference to body horror specifically. I mean, that's what your novel really is about–

KO: Yeah, yeah.

AA: And everyone at some point in their life is going to go through something that makes them surprised by, if not horrified by, their own physical form, right? Something that can't be diagnosed; something that is very strange to the people who are supposed to know what it is.

KO: Mm hmm.

AA: Something that is just really horrific, like if you break your arm and your, you know, your– your ulna is, like, sticking out or whatever. That's scary, right? And I think that is a really kind of visceral experience and a really visceral thing to explore in things like fiction and in things like film and in things like, you know, even TPR.

KO: Mm-hmm.

AA: I feel like there is some– intimations there, uh, for sure. So what about that is– is important to you to– to include with– with the work that you do? Why do you gravitate toward that?

KO: Uh, yeah. Yeah. I think there is going to be a little bit of body horror in probably everything I ever do, um, because, uh, that's, uh, that's how it is. [laughs] That's my body! That– and that– yeah; I think that's something especially that has probably fostered an interest in horror for me because, like, with body stuff especially, I think I get the most, like, simultaneous push and pull with it.

AA: Mm.

KO: Like, because I do have this deep interest in it, and this curiosity and fascination, and then also at the same time, this fear and this exhaustion with dealing with it, and this desire for it not to be happening. So that's something I think that really gets me. But yeah, I think there is this simultaneous like, curiosity, like fundamental curiosity, and then also like, the opposite of that. To like, know what's going on inside of me. To be like: I have to figure out what's going on in here. Yes, I do want to see these pictures of my insides from my surgery, and then also, like, I don't– I'm tired of trying to figure out what's going on in there, and I don't want to know anymore. So I think also like– like, body horror specifically is something that's like– it's crazy to be like, it's so special to me, [laughs] but like, kind of? In a way that it does, I think have the– it's something that I– I think about a lot, I write about a lot, and then also has the capacity to really get– get me more than probably any other thing can really like bother me or upset me. So, which again, that's part of horror.

AA: Yeah. It's so relevant and resonant to every– every person. Everyone is embodied in one way or another, right? Like, and, um, anything that challenges or menaces that embodiment as a person, I think is, is ultimately very, very frightening. And I think that really ties in with the grief thing too, right?

KO: Yeah. That's something else you can grieve for.

AA: Yeah. Yeah. You can grieve for ability or mobility or whatever it is–

KO: And I do! [laughs]

AA: –and you can– you can grieve it in other people too, right?

KO: Yes.

AA: Like in the horror where death is that kind of main catalyzing event, it's removing a body from someone's world, right? It's– it might be a stretch to call that body horror, but, you know, you see what I'm– what I'm getting at.

KO: Yes, of course, of course. Well, then, and then just also the– the reality of death is body horror, or like the reality of decomposition, or rot, or any of this stuff. And then I think something that we're even more susceptible to now, because yeah: it's so removed–

AA: Yes.

KO: –from our daily life. We do not deal with death on a daily basis in the way that a lot of people throughout history have done. And I– I mean, I do think that's– that's– that makes horror scarier. I mean, death is always scary; people have always grieved. And that's the thing too: I think people are like, “Oh, people died all the time in the past and so people were less sad about it.” And it's like: no, the grief was always so profound. And I think this is something that maybe ties back in with the body horror: it's like, the more you deal with something, a lot of the time, the harder it gets. [chuckles]

AA: There's a horror of frequency, certainly.

KO: Yeah, exactly.

AA: Or there's something really critically affecting about that intensity of experience over and over and over again. Repetition is– it can manifest a lot of– a lot of feelings in people. [chuckles]

KO: [chuckles] Yeah, yeah. For sure. That's true.

[ Music break ]

AA: So we've been kind of walking around this camp just, like, outside the firelight–

KO: This creepy carnival. [laughs]

AA: [laughs] Yeah, a creepy carnival, yeah! And, you know, you've mentioned The Ritual; you know, we've talked about His House — I'm– I'm very excited to check that out — I'm wondering, like, what are your other horror touchstones, or your favorite, like, horror media, or what horror things are you really grooving on, and– and why is that?

KO: Yeah, this is interesting. Like, I have actually– I've watched a lot more horror than I've read, I think. I have been reading some Stephen Graham Jones recently and really enjoying it. But it's— it's– this is something else: I was talking to a friend about this, who's like, “I can't watch horror movies, I can only read horror books.” And I'm absolutely the opposite. Horror movies don't– they don't scare me very often; I don't– I don't get very frightened. But I– I think I find reading a horror book a lot more frightening, uh,’cause then I'm the one who has to picture it in my head, and then it's always so much worse! [laughs]

AA: [laughs]

KO: So that's– I mean– and then also, I think there's something about a book that really slows down the gore, too. Like, Stephen Graham [Jones] is really good at this. I mean, I was like, “Oh, I've been reading this description of this person's jaw getting ripped clean off for such a long time.”

AA: [pained voice] Ooh.

KO: Right? But, you know–

AA: Iliadic. [chuckles]

KO: [chuckles] Yeah, yeah. But yeah; so my brother and I also, like– I– I– it's– this is fun. I do watch a lot of horror movies with my brother. But then also my– I have a really close group of friends that we're all very into horror. That we watch a lot of stuff together. Like they watched The Exorcist with me. I had never seen it. And my brother and I did like a classic horror. So we were quarantined together and that's the first time we lived together since we were kids, which was really fun. We're really– my brother and I are very close. We're really good friends. And so that was super fun. ’Cause we just had, like, a classic horror marathon that started in October ended up lasting all, like, all winter. [laughs]

AA: [laughs] Uh-huh.

KO: We were just, yeah– so I hadn't seen Night of the Living Dead; like, we caught up on like all of this really fundamental, foundational stuff, but yeah. I recently– I saw Possession — 1981, I think? About half an hour in, I was like: this is the craziest movie I've ever seen. [laughs] I paused it, and I was like– I was literally like, “Okay, I need somebody to watch this with me.” Not for like, “I'm afraid,” but I'm like, “There's something insane that's about to happen here. I need someone else to be witnessing it at the same time.” [laughs] Like, I sat there, like, for like 10 minutes after; just sitting there, and then I was like, “Well, five stars, first off.” ]laughs] Like, it's the most movie that's ever happened. [laughs]

AA: Wow.

KO: Alien, I would consider a horror movie, as well as being sci-fi. But yeah, I love practical effects. And then, you know, I mentioned the Babadook; I mentioned, like– I think something that really, like, those, like, really resonant metaphorical, like, moments I really love. Nope; I guess, it's interesting that I'm, like, now that I'm, like, thinking through these, I'm like, a lot of these are also a different genre.

AA: Yeah!

KO: They're kind of combined, which is something that I think I really enjoy too. I loved The Exorcist, actually.

AA: I saw that movie years and years ago. I was like: I have to watch this in the middle of the day, like, because I knew it was going to scare me.

KO: Yeah, I lit a prayer candle and watched it with my friends. [laughs]

AA: [laughs]

KO: I was like, “Hold on, everybody; I’ve got to get my bilingual prayer candle from WalMart. [laughs]

AA: I don't know that I could ever watch that movie again. I– I think it's the body horror for me. Like, there are certain scenes in that movie that I'm like: I don't want to see that again.

KO: Or that like turning inside out of innocence; like, the fact that this is happening to a child — like, it's– it's very difficult.

AA: Well, and that's– see, that's– this is the thing that I love about The Exorcist, like, conceptually, right? When I think about The Exorcist, I love it because this is a story, at least in my interpretation, of a young woman's sexual maturation.

KO: Girlhood being this horror to other people.

AA: Yeah! And it is, it is a huge metaphor for this, right? And I thrive on those kinds of stories. I, you know, I'm very focused on fiction that deals with feminist issues, effectively — and that is a very broad way to talk about this — but that movie, just for me, was, I just– I don't know that I want to ever see those images. They're like burned into my retinas, I feel. [chuckles]

KO: Yeah, I– and what's interesting is, I think for me, the draw of The Exorcist is, like, the arc of the priest as well, and I think it's– it's smart to like, give him this personal life as well as her. The fact that the girl gets possessed so quickly, like, you don't actually get a lot of her interior world.

AA: No, you don't.

KO: But yeah, this– this giving, sacrificing yourself in order to– to be like, “Somebody's gonna get out of this, but it's not gonna be me;” that, like, realization there, I find super interesting.

AA: Yeah.

KO: Um, I love Jacob's Ladder, uh, for the reasons that we've been talking about. Jacob's Ladder is so, so visually interesting. Very Silent Hill. Which, I know it's the reverse of that: Silent Hill is very Jacob's Ladder. [laughs] But whenever there's that, like, question of what's real and what isn't, or what's actually taking place here. It's pretty fun. Fun, maybe, again, is not the right word. [laughs]

AA: [laughs]

KO: But, I love The Birds. And something that I really enjoyed about Get Out — other than all of it [chuckles] — um, like I, I really, and, and Nope kind of does this too; like, Jordan Peele is really good at this: is, like, bringing back this, like, older methodology of horror, which is, like, nothing really happens for the first half of the movie, or like, or the movie is fully a different genre for the first half. [laughs] I get– I– me and my genre mixing! But I think it's super effective, because like, I mean, it's kind of fun to hit the ground running when something is wrong the whole time, something's creepy the whole time. Like, you understand that something weird is going on, but it's also really fun to be like, here's what we're losing. Like, here is the foundation that we're gonna build before everything goes wrong. So, like, something like The Birds is, like, a romance for the full first half of this movie. She's like, “I'm gonna have my cute little romantic vacation on this island before the birds start picking everybody's eyes out.” You know? [laughs]

AA: [laughs] Yeah; I– that is– that's a very astute observation, I think. This idea that in– in– the arc of so much horror you do get, at the very beginning, whatever the idyllic scenario is, or the relationship-building scenario is, or whatever it is that, you just said, that we're going to lose once this supernatural thing happens, or this inexplicable thing happens, or whatever.

KO: Yeah, but it can also be really effective to, uh — and this is kind of where I like to start — is where, like, right after the bad thing has happened.

AA: Mm. Mm-hmm.

KO: Not after the horror movie climax, but like, I really enjoy it when it's like something bad has already happened. And that's why this protagonist is in this frame of mind, or this place, or this, like, you know, dealing with the bad thing, and then things get worse, right? [laughs] Before they maybe get better, maybe someone dies. But like, that can also be, I think, pretty effective to be like: here's the thing that we're running from, and here's the thing we're running like into and hitting instead. I feel like I need to shout out Lake Mungo; trying to think of how to talk about like Mungo at all in a way that would fit with any of this. [chuckles] It's just excellent. Um, the amount of, like, ways it folds in on itself is super interesting, but then, yeah, once again, it's about grief and it's about dealing with your own death and being aware of that. We were talking about this earlier, like, a lot of horror is about grief. I think a lot of horror is also about loneliness.

AA: Yeah.

KO: Uh, I was making a joke about this. I haven't watched The Last of Us — or, I mean, I watched, like, the first couple of episodes, maybe. There's something really– that really compels me about the, like, the zombies in that. They're this like, fungus-based thing, which I love, but then there's something about it where it's like: okay; oh, they look so scary; they're zombies now; and then they mention though, they're like– they've formed this hive mind, like this mycelium network hive mind with each other. And I'm like, that's kind of great, isn't it? [laughs]

AA: [laughs]

KO: [laughs] I know that's not at all! That is not the point of The Last of Us, even a little bit. But is there something with that, or even with The Shining, right? Where I'm like, this is not good to get sucked into this hotel or turned into a fungus monster, but like, at least you got someone to hang out with! Right? [laughs]

AA: [laughs]

KO: Like, that's– I think that's kind of the flip side of the, like, you can never leave; is, like, you can never leave. But, you know, there is something to that, you know. These horror movie endings, or these horror movie punishments, or any of the stuff that there is kind of sometimes more than one way to look at it, that I think is super interesting.

AA: At the end of a horror movie, you get transported into some other kind of community situation. You're part of a hive mind, or you live at the Overlook Hotel for the rest of time.

KO: Could be worse. [laughs]

AA: [laughs]

KO: You did try to kill your family. Not great.

AA: Eh, no one's perfect. [laughs]

KO: [laughs] Pobody's nerfect.

AA: [laughs] Oh my goodness. Kit, thank you so much for joining me today to talk about all these haunted things. It's been just– it's so great. I just love talking with you, just in general–

KO: Yeah, me too.

AA: –so it's great to have this down for posterity as well.

KO: [laughs]

AA: But before we go, uh, is there anything you want to shout out? Or share anything coming up?

KO: [clearly smiling] Uh-huh. Very soon!

AA: And I think there's one thing that's coming up very, very shortly at the airing of this episode.

KO: Yeah!

AA: And then also, where can we find your work, and where can we find you, online?

KO: I am super excited: Thin Places Radio season two is coming out on Friday the 13th. October 13th.

AA: I can't wait!

KO: Uh, so I think in three days when this episode airs. [laughs]

AA: Yeah! [laughs]

KO: I'm stoked to be back in it.

AA: I think we should just mention season one, it runs what, two and a half hours at the very, very most?

KO: Yeah, because each episode's 10 minutes.

AA: Yeah, so it's an afternoon listen. It is one of the greatest things that is being made in the podcasting space, imy opinion.

KO: Stop!!

AA: So if that holds any water for you, you know, listen to Thin Places Radio, season one, so you're all caught up. So anything else? Anything else?

KO: Oh, and I'll say too, you can also call in to Thin Places Radio, we would love more voicemails. So, basically, if you have anything, a strange story or some supernatural advice you want to ask the Host, you can call in at 717-382-8093. Oh yeah, and you can find me at kristen oneal writes dot com. And I'm on Instagram at discountgoblin for no– I don't know; reasons unknown. [laughs]

AA: Fantastic. So looking forward to the debut of season two of TPR at the end of this week. Kit, thank you again. You're the best.

KO: I love hanging out with you. Thanks for letting me ramble about horror forever. [laughs]

AA: [laughs] You can follow little oracles at littleoracles on Instagram, check out the blog for more big book energy and creativity content at little oracles dot com. And, as always take care, keep creating and stay divine.

[ Outro music ]
[ Secret outtake ]

AA: Um, the– the thing about the– [cat meows]

KO: Yeah, exactly. 

AA: Oh my God, this cat is really losing his mind and I don't know why. I don't even know where he is now. 

KO: I love it. 

AA: He's fully disappeared. Great. 

KO: He vanished. 

AA & KO, in unison: Ghost cat. [both laugh]

KO: [laughs] No. No, that's perfect. Really normal. Ghost cat. [cat meows; cat meows again, more insistently]