Episode 164: Heather Quan and Ryan Waller

 In this episode Janus and Joyous discuss the insane case of Heather Quan and Ryan Waller and how the Phoenix Police department could have and should have done a better job.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Unsung Murder Ballads is a true crime podcast, and as such, we will be discussing topics that are disturbing, graphic, and often violent in nature. So this is not for children under the age of 13.

SPEAKER_01 0:12

But you know this because you did start playing this episode. So here are some things you might not know about us.

SPEAKER_00 0:18

We are going to be critical of mistakes made by both criminals and law enforcement.

SPEAKER_01 0:22

We're going to express our views on things that you might not always agree with.

SPEAKER_00 0:26

We will occasionally go on an off-topic tangent.

SPEAKER_01 0:29

And we are going to use dark humor to express ourselves now and then.

SPEAKER_00 0:33

So if you're easily triggered, this might not be the podcast for you.

SPEAKER_01 0:38

However, if this is your cup of tea, then raise your pinky finger while you sip and join us for this week's horrific case, you sick bastards. And I'm Joyce Dead.

SPEAKER_00 1:02

Alrighty. So today we have a brand new episode, not another revisited episode, I promise.

SPEAKER_01 1:08

Well, you could do a revisited, and with my memory of a squirrel, I would probably react just as I did the first time.

SPEAKER_00 1:15

You know what you might. Again, we've said it a hundred times. I think we I should test that theory, but uh not not right away.

SPEAKER_01 1:23

Yeah, not when we've just talked about it. You gotta sneak it up on me.

SPEAKER_00 1:26

Exactly, exactly. Although we did get a message from a listener, uh, I think her name was Christina, asking why we had taken down the older ones and were redoing these newer ones. And I did explain to her in the message that it's because we didn't really like the way they ended up now looking back. So yeah, it is what it is, but that's why we're doing it because we just feel we've grown since then, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 1:49

Yeah, we didn't really hit our stride yet.

SPEAKER_00 1:51

Right. And even the I think the most the earliest one that's up there right now is the Beaumont children, the kids that disappeared from the beach in Australia.

SPEAKER_02 2:00

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 2:01

And even that one, I re-listened to it and I was like, this is kind of boring, but I still feel like that one was better than the ones that came before it.

SPEAKER_01 2:10

We can leave it up.

SPEAKER_00 2:11

Yeah, we'll leave that one up, at least for now, until I get, you know, until I feel like it could be improved upon. But after that one, we have the the one with the nun, like the the nun that went missing from the basic. Oh yeah. And to me, that one was that one was still good. That was us, I think that was our first real solid move, you know?

SPEAKER_01 2:30

Yeah. That one was crazy. Hey, maybe I do remember things. I remember that one.

SPEAKER_00 2:34

Right. And then the one after that, that I still thought was really strong was the guy on the the bus with the the two Canadians.

SPEAKER_02 2:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:42

So those I think were still solid. So I don't feel like we need to keep going after those. I think we'd hit our like you said, we hit our stride.

SPEAKER_01 2:50

Yeah. You know what it is? I couldn't name a single one of anyone's names in any case. But I think I do remember like the story.

SPEAKER_00 2:59

That you know what I agree with you because if I like I'm looking at the chart now in front of me, but if you if I had if you had said to me, Oh, Vincent Lee and Tim McLean, I'd have been like, who? You know, but that but then once once you say the Greyhound bus, I'm like, oh yeah, right, in Canada. Yeah, I'm so I'm I'm with you.

SPEAKER_01 3:16

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:17

Some names I'll definitely recognize, but those two I think I wouldn't have remembered. But the case, that one's a crazy that was a crazy, crazy case.

SPEAKER_01 3:25

Yeah, that one was wild.

SPEAKER_00 3:27

This one, all right, this one's not as crazy as that. I can promise you that. But this one's okay, this one's fucked. And I and this was I definitely wanted to do this. I was gonna save it for I was gonna save it for a Christmas episode because it happens on Christmas, but I decided not to.

SPEAKER_01 3:42

We don't need to ruin Christmas with real Christmas stories that are bad.

SPEAKER_00 3:46

Not every year, no.

SPEAKER_01 3:47

No.

SPEAKER_00 3:48

We did it the first two, I think. We didn't do it this past year, but we'll just ruin your St.

SPEAKER_01 3:53

Patty's Day.

SPEAKER_00 3:54

There you go. Is that when this is gonna come out? I don't even know.

SPEAKER_01 3:57

That's maybe the week before, we'll see.

SPEAKER_00 4:00

I have no idea. I don't pay attention to all the holidays, sadly. All right. Fair enough. Let's dive in. So on Christmas Day 2006, in Glendale, Arizona, families across the city and across the world, I'm sure, were spending that time together. Father and husband Don Waller was looking forward to Christmas dinner because his children always came over for that. However, when dinner started and his eighteen-year-old son Ryan didn't show up, he was a little confused. So the family started calling him, calling Ryan, but he didn't answer. And this obviously created some concern, especially as the night kept going on and they didn't hear back from Ryan.

SPEAKER_01 4:42

Right.

SPEAKER_00 4:43

Well, as any dutiful father would, Don decided to go to his son's apartment in Phoenix late on Christmas night. On the way, he also decided that maybe he should call the police and have them conduct a wellness check in his son's apartment.

SPEAKER_01 4:58

These are all smart things. These are the right courses of action here.

SPEAKER_00 5:01

And not only that, but like just having the wherewithal to think maybe I shouldn't enter the apartment without some kind of witness. You know what I mean? Like that's a good way to go. So while Don waited outside, the police arrived and they knocked on Ryan's door, but no one answered. They announced themselves and knocked again. And this time they heard the deadbolt unlock. On the other side of that door stood Ryan Waller himself. He was alive. Oh, okay. He was alive, and he had a large, dark, and very noticeable bruise over one eye. To emphasize the point on this, his eye was completely swollen shut. Oh my. So much so that they couldn't even see his eyeball. Ryan also had scratches and bruises on his face. So please ask him, you know, are you Ryan Waller? But Ryan doesn't answer them. He just stares at him. Weird. So they told him they were there there they were there to conduct a wellness check because he had missed his family's Christmas dinner and everybody was worried. But once again, Ryan doesn't respond. He's just staring.

SPEAKER_01 6:12

Weird.

SPEAKER_00 6:13

So they asked him what happened to his eye, and still, no response.

SPEAKER_01 6:19

Are we brain injury or are we uh we killed someone?

SPEAKER_00 6:23

We'll get to it.

SPEAKER_01 6:24

And they fought back.

SPEAKER_00 6:26

Well, they look past Ryan inside the apartment, and they notice a woman lying on the couch. And police ask him, Hey, is that your girlfriend Heather over there on the couch? Now remember, his father's outside, and he has given police some information here.

SPEAKER_02 6:43

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 6:44

So Ryan finally responds, and he said, I don't know who that is on the couch.

SPEAKER_01 6:51

Hmm. No, that's an interesting answer.

SPEAKER_00 6:55

So they asked him if the woman was sleeping. And Ryan became defensive. And he said he didn't know, and he became really annoyed with the police. His responses were becoming short, and he was even rolling his eyes, or the one eye the police could see.

SPEAKER_01 7:14

His eye.

SPEAKER_00 7:17

Police told him that they needed to come inside to check on that woman with who they correctly presumed was Heather. Ryan became even more agitated, and he told them no, they couldn't come in. So police are trying to calm him down. And at this point, Ryan, he wasn't even using complete sentences. And eventually police told him that he had to step aside and let them go check on Heather. And finally, he relented and let them in the apartment. Upon entering, Phoenix police found 21-year-old Heather Kwan, Ryan's girlfriend, dead on the couch, having been shot in the head. Oh my god. So Don Waller, Ryan's father, who had been waiting outside, was initially relieved when he saw the front door open and police were bringing his son out until he realized he had handcuffs on.

SPEAKER_01 8:11

Oh, that's that's really rough.

SPEAKER_00 8:14

So this is the case of Heather Kwan and Ryan Waller. That was your teaser, in case you hadn't figured it out.

SPEAKER_01 8:21

Wow, that was that was a long teaser. It was a little long. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:25

But there was no way to shorten that. I I mean I guess I could have, but then I would have to reiterate it all. So I, you know, longer teaser.

SPEAKER_01 8:33

Fair enough.

SPEAKER_00 8:34

So Heather was born on April 10th, 1985, to her mother, Terry Dundalk, and her father Robert Kwan. She also had a brother named Andrew. Heather was a 2003 graduate of Mountain Ridge High School. She completed her education at Glendale Community College, and she was a student at Arizona State University, and she had planned to attend law school. She had aspired to be a defense lawyer. And she also volunteered as a big sister for the Valley Big Brother Big Sister program. I know it's always like the good ones.

SPEAKER_01 9:08

Always.

SPEAKER_00 9:08

It never fails, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:11

But that's who drives awful people crazy.

SPEAKER_00 9:14

That's true too. You know what? You're not wrong on that.

SPEAKER_01 9:17

It makes sense that they would be like, fuck you. I can't like you're not fucked up like me. I'm gonna fuck you up for not being fucked up.

SPEAKER_00 9:24

Yeah, they they just kind of grow to hate you for it, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:27

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 9:28

So at a very young age, Heather seemed to kind of sense when others were hurting and would give her friendship to those who needed it most. She was a strong-willed individual who not only lived life, but loved life. She met Ryan Waller during her teenage years, and the two quickly formed a deep connection. Heather and Ryan shared many interests, including music and spending time with friends, and their relationship flourished as they planned their future together. Now Ryan Waller was born on February 12th, 1988, and he grew up in the Phoenix area. He was known as kind. Right? So I'm gonna assume I don't know. Again, she's an interesting dynamic, is all like the the I agree, because a an older woman at that age dating a younger guy is still weird to me.

SPEAKER_01 10:22

Yeah, because we don't really know when they started actually dating, but That's true.

SPEAKER_00 10:27

But they weren't that old at this point because even in 2006, if she was 21, then he was 19. Yeah. So he was known for being kind-hearted and fun-loving. He enjoyed playing guitar and had aspirations for pursuing a career in music. Let's be honest, we all did in our teens.

SPEAKER_01 10:46

Truly.

SPEAKER_00 10:48

Now I did try find I did try finding more information on their personal relationship, but sadly there's not a whole lot out there. As with most victims in cases like this, the victim's information are usually scarce, and family members are not so willing to talk about it publicly. So this is all we get about the lives, the young early lives of Heather Kwan and Ryan Waller.

SPEAKER_02 11:11

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 11:12

So back to Christmas 2006. Ryan was put in the back of the squad car as police dispatched paramedics for Heather. And when the paramedics came out, they confirmed what everyone pretty much knew that she was dead. Now the medical examiner looked at Heather's body while Ryan Waller was sitting in the back of the squad car where they kept him for over three hours. Good. Literally, though, three hours sitting in a cop car out on a public street while they're examining a crime scene. You know, I think that's weird.

SPEAKER_01 11:48

I hope they're watching the car.

SPEAKER_00 11:49

They are they were. He doesn't go anywhere.

SPEAKER_01 11:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 11:53

But eventually they drove him to the police station, and Ryan's interrogation began.

SPEAKER_01 11:58

Oh my. This is gonna be weird, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 12:00

This is gonna be a bulk of what we're gonna talk about. This is fucking crazy. I'm not gonna lie.

SPEAKER_01 12:06

All right, let's rock.

SPEAKER_00 12:08

Police asked him what happened, but he wouldn't really talk much. He kept saying he didn't know. And his behavior was more like he was in shock than anything else.

SPEAKER_02 12:18

Hmm.

SPEAKER_00 12:19

They asked him why he was in the house, the apartment, with Heather dead on the couch, but didn't call the police. And generally he ignored their questions, or he said he didn't know what happened. At one point when they asked that question, he answered something strange, but throughout the names Alicia and Eric. Now, quick side note, because I do need to point this out before we can move on. Alicia is reported to have been Ryan and Heather's roommate.

SPEAKER_02 12:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 12:50

In one report I found, and only one report, it claimed that Alicia, the roommate, had actually been the one that answered the door for police. And that she had interesting, and that she had returned home earlier that day, but hadn't noticed Heather on the couch.

SPEAKER_01 13:07

The fuck?

SPEAKER_00 13:08

Yeah, and again, I don't know how true that is. It's only in one report.

SPEAKER_01 13:13

I mean, you know, we don't know what the layout of the apartment was. It could have been like a I'm coming home to crash. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 13:19

Yeah, who knows? It's so it could be true, but everything else I saw doesn't really mention that she was the one that opened the door or that she was in the apartment and didn't notice Heather. But who knows?

SPEAKER_01 13:29

Because like you said, she could easily if we're saying the couch is visible from the door. I don't know, that's weird. If she opened it and she didn't see it, it's really weird.

SPEAKER_00 13:37

And to be fair, this is the only time her name really plays into anything.

SPEAKER_01 13:42

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_00 13:42

Okay, but I do need to address the elephant in the room with that one. And I think fair. And I think Eric is her boyfriend, but I I don't know. Okay. So police quickly assumed that Ryan and Heather had gotten into a fight that morning and had escalated to him shooting her. Now there is a lot of footage of Ryan Waller's questioning by police. There's a lot of it. And going through it all was just gave me a headache, to be honest. But here we are.

SPEAKER_01 14:11

You had to do it for the highlight reel for us.

SPEAKER_00 14:13

I did. And in this in this uh We appreciate you for it. Yeah, believe me, you wouldn't want to watch it all. It was brutal.

SPEAKER_01 14:22

But in Yeah, no thanks.

SPEAKER_00 14:24

But in this, Ryan is initially alone in the interrogation room, and he had been turned he they had changed his clothes into a white jumpsuit. He was handcuffed to the table by one arm, and he very noticeably has that large dark bruise under one of his eyes. I mean it, and to be honest, it is so large you can even tell how swollen shut it is from the low quality camera footage.

SPEAKER_01 14:47

Damn.

SPEAKER_00 14:48

It's bad.

SPEAKER_01 14:50

So they should, in theory, have him medically examined too, right?

SPEAKER_00 14:54

They should, yes. But we'll get there. You can see how uncomfortable Ryan is. He's agitated and he occasionally lets out these weird moans. He also stands up and sits back down multiple times. And eventually a detective comes into the room and they start taking some pictures of him. And he says to them, I just want to go home. And the officers the officer responds with, You're not going to go home. Now what's weird, what's weird is Ryan is cooperating as he's told to turn to the side for the photos, but he just continues to say, I just want to go home and I just want to go to sleep.

SPEAKER_01 15:33

Well, he probably go, I I think he's got a concussion.

SPEAKER_00 15:37

I'm not saying anything, but yeah, you're probably right.

SPEAKER_01 15:40

I've been saying brain injury from the start, but maybe it's just a concussion, in which case it shouldn't go to sleep.

SPEAKER_00 15:45

Agreed. Another detective came in and he started the interrogation and he asked Ryan if he knew why he was there being questioned. And Ryan said no, but he's fidgety and he's clearly distressed.

SPEAKER_01 16:00

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 16:01

He literally can't stop moving around, kind of adjusting, and he's annoyed to be sitting there being questioned. And the officer asked Ryan what the highest grade of school was that he had completed, to which Ryan responds, I don't know, I don't know. But but after the question is repeated, he says the eighth grade. Which wasn't true. Which wasn't true. He had graduated high school.

SPEAKER_01 16:28

Weird.

SPEAKER_00 16:29

Yeah, very weird. So the detective asked at Ryan if he had a girlfriend, and he just sits there and doesn't respond. He is then asked if he knows Heather, because Heather is the woman on the couch. But as Ryan doesn't answer, the detective clearly becomes annoyed with him, because you know he's like ignoring him. And he asks again, Do you know Heather? And all he gets out of Ryan is a mm-hmm. And he's like, Okay, well, what's Heather's last name? And he said, just says, like, mmm, like, what in the world is going on? He says. And the cop's like, okay, well, what's the last name? And Ryan's like, I don't know her last name. So the detectives are like asking themselves, like, why is he lying about the most simple things? Like, you can see the confusion.

SPEAKER_01 17:14

Right, but it's like, look at his eyeball. He's probably not right in the head right now.

SPEAKER_00 17:19

Right. So they know he knows Heather, so they're again, they're like, Why is why won't he just tell us her last name? And Ryan is acting like he barely knows Heather, even though, like, this is the woman they found murdered on his couch. One thing that really bothered detectives was that he's basically pretending that he doesn't even care. Or he's not even trying to pretend that he cares.

SPEAKER_01 17:42

So the detectives I can see that being irritating, but yeah, you're dealing with a deeply disturbed person either way.

SPEAKER_00 17:48

So the detectives then asked how old Heather was, and Ryan answers, 16 or 17. But they already know she's 21 years old.

SPEAKER_02 17:57

Hmm.

SPEAKER_00 17:58

So the detectives asked more questions about Heather. But a majority of those answers from Ryan were I don't know, or sentences that didn't make a lot of sense. So eventually detectives asked Ryan what happened to his face. And he said, I don't know. I think it was Heather.

SPEAKER_02 18:17

Huh.

SPEAKER_00 18:18

So they said, Well, why would Heather hit you? And he says, I don't know. That's an accident. I forgot why.

SPEAKER_02 18:26

Hmm.

SPEAKER_01 18:28

Yeah, he's got a brain injury, guys. Hack it up.

SPEAKER_00 18:32

Like I wish you were in that room. I wish you were in that room, but unfortunately you were not.

SPEAKER_01 18:38

Yup.

SPEAKER_00 18:39

So the police ask him, Well, what was an accident? And for a while after this, Ryan just continued to behave in an agitated manner, and a lot of what he said didn't make any kind of sense. And then he starts raising his voice and he's like, I don't know, I don't know. And he's acting really annoyed. So despite the confusion, the randomness, and the irritation in Ryan's voice, the detectives just kept asking him about his injury. And his own and his answers only get worse from there. Like he's just being really random.

SPEAKER_01 19:09

Don't they know when to stop? Aren't they trained on this?

SPEAKER_00 19:12

They should be. Certainly better than this.

SPEAKER_01 19:15

Ugh, disappointing, as always.

SPEAKER_00 19:17

So Ryan eventually tells him that Heather hit him with her hand, and then he was when we was asked why, he replied that she was helping Christina with her head doing her hair. Almost a direct quote, by the way. And the detectives were like, Ryan, who's Christina? And Ryan says, She's on the couch. It kills me because you're you're seeing so clearly through it. The police are not realizing how bad of a head injury he's gotten.

SPEAKER_01 19:54

Right, right. It's like it's so obvious that he is actually confused.

SPEAKER_00 19:59

Yes. So the detectives asked, Okay, well, what's Christina's last name? What does Christina look like? And Ryan just raises his voice in an annoyed tone, and again, he's like, I don't know, I really don't know, man. So the detectives asked more questions about this new person, Christina, but he just keeps getting more annoyed and keeps answering with I don't knows. So at this point, the cops are like shaking their head. You can see their frustration. And then finally, one of them just says, Ryan, what happened last night? And they get, I don't know, I just want to go to sleep. And I can't underesti under like emphasize how long this goes on for.

SPEAKER_01 20:36

Like literally, and it's like they should know, like, it's like this is how you get a false confession, and this is how, like, I don't know. Stop.

unknown 20:45

Right?

SPEAKER_01 20:45

Stop trying another day. Like try in the morning.

SPEAKER_00 20:48

Right. Regardless of what this guy is guilty of, knock it the fuck off, right?

SPEAKER_01 20:53

Yeah, it's not helpful.

SPEAKER_00 20:55

So again, I'm go I'm trying to emphasize just how abnormally Ryan is behaving, which you're thankfully picking up on. And eventually the detectives flat out told Ryan that the girl in the house was dead. And Ryan then says, I don't know if she's on the couch.

SPEAKER_01 21:17

Yeah. I hate to laugh, but it's I I agree.

SPEAKER_00 21:20

It's not funny, and yet it is funny.

SPEAKER_01 21:23

Yeah, it's got like a weird irony about it. I don't know what it is. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:28

Right. So then Ryan says something that confuses everyone in the room even further. He says, Well, these people came over, Richie and his dad, and they were shooting arrows and darts.

SPEAKER_02 21:42

Hmm.

SPEAKER_00 21:43

So at this point in time, the police are they're just sitting there staring at him.

SPEAKER_01 21:47

And obviously, this is the it sounds like he's recalling a bunch of memories from when he's a teenager and trying to like construct it. Might even be like amnesia.

SPEAKER_00 21:58

It could be, yes. I don't Want to I don't want to reveal anything, so I'm just gonna keep rolling with it.

SPEAKER_02 22:03

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 22:04

And of course, police at this point are like, Well, this is the first time he's mentioned intruders coming over. And police they're thinking that he Ryan is finally figuring out what fake story he needs to say to explain away the dead girlfriend on the couch. So detectives asked him to tell them exactly what happened. And Ryan says that Richie and his dad tried to break in through the back door, and that Richie used to live in the apartment as they were roommates, and that Richie and his dad had hit him because they were trying to get stuff. So the detectives then asked, Well, why did they do this with a bow and arrow? And Ryan says that they had revolvers, but they didn't let off any shells.

SPEAKER_02 22:49

Huh.

SPEAKER_00 22:49

So the detectives reminded Ryan that he had said something about bows and arrows. And Ryan says, No, that's not what I meant. They had revolvers. I meant they had revolvers.

SPEAKER_01 23:00

Yeah. This is the load of like, come on, guys.

SPEAKER_00 23:05

Yeah, this is rough. I told you this is a bulk of it, is the the torture of this interrogation.

SPEAKER_02 23:11

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 23:12

So the detectives then asked, okay, what happened next? And Ryan says, Well, they shot both of us. And then they asked him, like, oh, they shot you both with revolvers. And Ryan says, Yeah, they shot me in the eye. They had revolvers. And then the detective says, Did you shoot Heather? And Ryan was like, No, I didn't shoot Heather. So this goes back and forth for a little bit. And finally, one of the officers says to Ryan, If they shot you in the eye with a revolver, you wouldn't be talking to me right now. And Ryan says, Well, how do you know? And the officers the officer says back, because you'd be dead. And Ryan says back to him, Well, I thought that too. Alright. So let's take a short moment to return to something that I haven't brought up in a bit. At this point, one entire half of Ryan's face is basically black and his eye is completely swollen shut. Finally, the detectives begin to realize that something's wrong. He asked Ryan if he could take a closer look at his face because he started to think that maybe he had a concussion and needs a doctor.

SPEAKER_01 24:30

Yer okay, we we made it there.

SPEAKER_00 24:32

He stood up and looked at Ryan's face for a second, and the second he touched Ryan's head, the detective abruptly got up and exited the room. When he came back in the room, his demeanor had completely changed. He was compassionate, and his voice was calm, and he told Ryan that they were gonna take him to the hospital. And of course, Ryan was like, I don't want to go to the hospital, I just want to go to bed.

SPEAKER_02 24:58

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 24:59

And the cop said that they needed to make sure that he was okay. Finally the paramedics enter the room, and as they do, the detective says to them, You're not gonna believe this one. He keeps telling me that he was shot or hit by a revolver. And then the detective pointed to Ryan's face and whispered, I think these wounds right here near the nose is a gunshot entrance that passed through his nose and went into his eye.

SPEAKER_01 25:30

Wait, the cop said that or the paramedic?

SPEAKER_00 25:33

The cop said that.

SPEAKER_01 25:34

Huh.

SPEAKER_00 25:35

So Ryan had occasionally become lucid enough to be telling the truth. Ryan Waller had been shot in the face. There was a bullet lodged in his head, and this caused him to become disoriented. He wandered around his apartment holding on to life until the police showed up and arrested him.

SPEAKER_01 25:58

Whoa.

SPEAKER_00 26:01

Fucking crazy.

SPEAKER_01 26:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:04

They then held Ryan in the back seat of that cop car for hours and then demanded that they talk to him that he talked to them during this interrogation, all the while treating him like a criminal before actually getting him any medical attention.

SPEAKER_01 26:19

Yup.

SPEAKER_00 26:20

So while Ryan was in the back of that cop car, they never once stopped to make sure that he was okay. And even though half his face was black and you couldn't even see his eye because it was so swollen, they held him for roughly six hours with a bullet in his brain.

SPEAKER_01 26:36

That's nuts. That's nuts.

SPEAKER_00 26:39

Literally, he's not even speaking coherent sentences, but they're gonna keep interrogating him.

SPEAKER_01 26:44

Right. And they're never gonna think about the fact that his face is so bruised. Like it's really hard to bruise a face the way that you're describing. Like it takes a lot.

SPEAKER_00 26:53

Right. So six hours during which he was experiencing worsening brain damage and could have and he could have been receiving surgery for his active injuries. And at this point now, the police department, they're hoping none of this is true. They're hoping it isn't a bullet, because if so, they've basically neglected a victim for hours.

SPEAKER_01 27:14

Yah, not a good look.

SPEAKER_00 27:16

Ryan was taken to the hospital, and doctors determined that he had life-threatening injuries, and he was put in critical condition. Police then finally went back to Ryan's apartment and actually did some police work.

SPEAKER_01 27:30

Amazing, incredible.

SPEAKER_00 27:32

In doing so, they learned who his former roommate was and tracked down Richie.

SPEAKER_02 27:40

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 27:40

Yeah. So basically on December 23rd, a couple days before Christmas, 2006, Ryan and Heather were spending a night in together eating pizza when they heard a knock at the door. Now, some sources say that Richie and Ryan had gotten into a fight previously when they had lived together, that it possibly involved guns. And Richie had come back that night for revenge. Richie and his father Larry ambushed Ryan and Heather.

SPEAKER_01 28:08

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 28:09

Ryan fought back trying to force the door closed when he realized it was them. But Richie had gotten his arm through the door and shot Ryan in the face twice.

SPEAKER_01 28:21

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 28:23

The first bullet was the one that the detective finally noticed, and the other one actually skimmed the side of his head, uh, taking a piece of his skull and then exiting.

SPEAKER_01 28:33

Actually insane the detectives didn't notice this.

SPEAKER_00 28:36

Fucking morons.

SPEAKER_01 28:38

Literally.

SPEAKER_00 28:39

Ryan fell to the floor, and Richie and Larry just pushed their way in. And they assumed he was dead because they shot him in the head. And they reportedly walked over to Heather, who was on the couch, and they shot her because she was a witness.

SPEAKER_01 28:54

Who the fuck are these people? What the fuck?

SPEAKER_00 28:56

Well, they took some weapons and a computer from the house, and they left thinking they were both dead. Jumping forward a little bit, Richie Carver was sentenced to a life term in 2008. And his father was who was initially released because there was no physical evidence that he was involved in the crime itself. But later, other evidence that they had, there was a confession from Larry's wife, because she told him that he had told her what he did. And initially she they couldn't use her to testify because of that old law that you couldn't make a wife or a spouse testify against the other, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 29:32

Right.

SPEAKER_00 29:33

So they had to go through and like redo some laws or get some kind of permission so they could use her testimony. And then as a result, he was re-indicted in November of 2011, five years later, and he was convicted of first degree murder, and he is also serving a life term.

SPEAKER_01 29:49

All right, good.

SPEAKER_00 29:51

Yeah, there's not a lot of information on those two. I guess I could have dug a little deeper, but that's not mean as fucked up as those two are. I don't want fuck their story. Like I hate to say it.

SPEAKER_02 30:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:03

So going back now to 2006, after being rushed to the hospital, Ryan was immediately taken into surgery where they had to remove a section of his brain.

SPEAKER_02 30:13

Whoa.

SPEAKER_00 30:14

He had a shattered eye socket. The swelling and the blue and the bleeding, the bone and a bullet fragment in his brain. It was brutal.

SPEAKER_01 30:23

Right. Oh, and like when you have a head trauma like that, you're like, you're it's called like your intracranial pressure, like because everything swells in your head. It's like your head's gonna fucking explode.

SPEAKER_00 30:34

I can't imagine what he was feeling for two days.

SPEAKER_01 30:36

Because it was too insane that he survived. This is like critical neuroICU.

SPEAKER_00 30:42

Exactly. So he had to have one of his eyes removed due to the damage, and Ryan was then permanently blind.

SPEAKER_01 30:50

Oh, must have severed some nerves in the other eye, too.

SPEAKER_00 30:53

Well, he developed seizures. He suffered from chronic pain, memory issues, emotional instability, and PTSD layered on top of everything else.

SPEAKER_01 31:04

That makes sense. Yeah, that's probably fucked his frontal lobe if it came in right through his face. Right out, like upwards, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:12

Yeah. It's fucking crazy.

SPEAKER_01 31:13

Oh, that's so awful.

SPEAKER_00 31:15

When the footage of Ryan's interrogation became public years later, it spread quickly. Viewers were horrified. You could you can see him swaying in the chair. You can hear the delayed and weird responses. And you can watch the detectives as they grow frustrated with him. And at one point, as I said, an officer commented about his eyes, but they still didn't bring in any immediate medical intervention.

SPEAKER_01 31:40

Crazy.

SPEAKER_00 31:41

Civil rights advocates began asking questions. How could a trained officer not recognize a gunshot wound to the face? As you have seen. Why was a critically injured victim treated like a suspect? They're basically saying it was tunnel vision or confirmation bias, or was it something worse? This case became a flashpoint in discussions about police interrogation tactics and the presumption of guilt. The Phoenix Police Department faced heavy criticism, obviously.

SPEAKER_01 32:14

Obviously.

SPEAKER_00 32:15

While officials maintained that officers were following procedures based on what they had observed at the time, the video footage told a different story to many viewers.

SPEAKER_01 32:27

Yeah. And also, like, okay, if they were just following procedure, what the fuck is wrong with your procedure?

SPEAKER_00 32:34

Exactly. Fix the problem, right?

SPEAKER_01 32:36

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 32:37

To anyone watching that video, the police's behavior looked like indifference, maybe even negligence. It looked like a system more focused on closing a case than protecting victims.

SPEAKER_01 32:51

Right. And you know what? Even if you were a hundred percent sure, whatever, this is the perpetrator. You kind of want them to survive so that you can give justice.

SPEAKER_00 33:01

Right? Yeah, you need them alive to stand trial.

SPEAKER_01 33:04

Right. And you you punishment has to wait until there has been a conviction. Right. That is how our justice system works.

SPEAKER_00 33:12

Right.

SPEAKER_01 33:13

You have to you have to make sure that they're okay because you haven't proven anything.

SPEAKER_00 33:18

Yeah, you can't you can't let them suffer while you ask them questions.

SPEAKER_01 33:22

No, you can let them rot in prison afterwards.

SPEAKER_00 33:25

Right.

SPEAKER_01 33:25

But also, like, you ever heard the phrase you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar?

SPEAKER_00 33:30

Yes. I think it's bees, but or yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:34

Probably bees. But yeah, it's like these cops never heard of that.

SPEAKER_00 33:37

Clearly not. I think they thought he got what he deserved, and that's why they just kept asking him questions because they assumed he was Heather's killer and that she had fought back. Which again makes sense because no offense, that's what you thought when when we started this. That's what I thought the first time I heard.

SPEAKER_01 33:52

Literally within a second, I was like, Yeah, this guy's got a brain injury.

SPEAKER_00 33:57

You were literally, yeah, but you were also literally like, good, leave him in the fucking car.

SPEAKER_01 34:02

No, you're right. No, you're right. I uh my bias is there.

SPEAKER_00 34:06

Right, and we all do it. So, but the cops the cops have a different obligation than you and I do as podcasters.

SPEAKER_01 34:13

This is true. This is true. I am not trained, I do not know the procedures, and also like it doesn't really make sense to let him sit in the car. Like, why is someone not taking him down to the station?

SPEAKER_00 34:23

Right, or at least when the paramedics show up, send one of them over to him.

SPEAKER_01 34:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:29

Like, you don't see those kind of injuries very often outside of boxing.

SPEAKER_01 34:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:35

So yeah, it was weird. So Ryan Ryan later filed a civil lawsuit against the city of Phoenix. The claim was that officers failed to provide timely medical care and subjected him to coercive interrogation while he was critically injured. In 2013, the case was settled, and the city of Phoenix agreed to pay Ryan a settlement reported to be reported to be around$200,000. Which I don't think.

SPEAKER_01 35:03

Are you kidding me?

SPEAKER_00 35:04

No.

SPEAKER_01 35:05

That wouldn't pay his hospital bills.

SPEAKER_00 35:07

Well, presumably, I think they would have to cover the bills. This is outside of that, but who knows? I don't know how it works.

SPEAKER_01 35:12

Wait, that's nothing for like being blind for the rest of your life. Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_00 35:18

Now, Ryan's life after the injury had remained private, and out of respect for him and his family, we don't dig too deep. But Ryan passed away at the age of 28 on January 21st, 2016, due to a seizure caused by these injuries.

SPEAKER_01 35:36

That's really sad.

SPEAKER_00 35:38

Yeah. The Waller family filed a lawsuit against the Phoenix police and the city of Phoenix for$15 million. This lawsuit went on for nearly three and a half years. Wow. Three weeks before the trial was set to actually start, the city filed a motion for dismissal with the court because they had stated that they had found a brain expert who said that a six-hour delay with you know of him not getting medical treat treatment probably didn't make a difference in the outcome.

SPEAKER_01 36:12

No, I don't believe that for a second.

SPEAKER_00 36:15

Well, the motion went before a judge and the judge dismissed the case.

SPEAKER_01 36:21

That's fucked.

SPEAKER_00 36:23

Yep. So that$200,000 ish that Ryan got, I'm assuming would eventually pass on to his family, but that's all they would get out of it.

SPEAKER_01 36:34

Right. That's so fucked up. I don't believe that. No.

SPEAKER_00 36:40

That's that's uh some judge sided with the city on that. And to be honest, you see that a lot where the police and the the courts will almost always side together. So yeah. Yeah, it's frustrating.

SPEAKER_01 36:54

Really fucking sucks. Yeah, it's like man, I like so I work I work with medical devices that are used for very in very similar contexts, and so like I have the background of like how how urgent like this shit is and how dangerous it is to like see mad. I think fucks this brain expert.

SPEAKER_00 37:15

I think you should get a go on to get another degree, this one in criminal justice, and then you take the two areas of your expertise and you go and help people like this.

SPEAKER_01 37:27

Yeah, that would rock.

SPEAKER_00 37:29

That would I would love to see you on like as I'm covering a case, you're on the you're actually the one on the stand supporting this shit. It'd be crazy.

SPEAKER_01 37:36

Oh, maybe one day when I have time to go get my MD and my criminal justice degree.

SPEAKER_00 37:40

You know, like tomorrow.

SPEAKER_01 37:42

Yeah, tomorrow, no problem. I totally I totally can pay for that.

SPEAKER_00 37:45

Yeah, no, no issues at all, right? Ryan Wallers and Heather Kwan's murderers are in prison, but those who actually factored into Ryan's suffering and eventual death are not. No one has been held liable for the negligence that happened that day.

SPEAKER_01 38:04

Right, that 200k didn't come out of anyone's fucking paycheck.

SPEAKER_00 38:08

Right. And that is the case of Heather Kwan and Ryan Waller. Kind of a short one tonight.

SPEAKER_01 38:14

That pisses me the fuck off. That they didn't even get fired.

SPEAKER_00 38:17

Yeah, nothing. They weren't held accountable in any way except for that 200,000, which you're right, probably came out of some insurance somewhere.

SPEAKER_01 38:25

Yeah, there's it comes out of taxpayer money.

SPEAKER_00 38:28

Right. It's fucked up. And again, you can. I mean, I'll obviously post some photos online about this uh of Ryan and all that. But if you you if anyone wants to, you can watch the footage. It's brutal to it's worse to watch than what I just did to everybody.

SPEAKER_01 38:45

Oh, that I don't know. I don't know if I could. That's heartbreaking.

SPEAKER_00 38:48

It was brutal. I could hear you, I could hear the impatience in your voice too. And I was like, you should have tried watching the hours of this. It was brutal.

SPEAKER_01 38:56

Uh yeah, sounds like it.

SPEAKER_00 38:58

Yeah, it was it took a lot out of me. I was like, oh fuck. So but yeah, I and it was funny, I chose this case because I knew anyone, whether it was you or you and Tori or whoever was, or Madster, whoever was gonna be in there, I was like, I knew everyone was gonna assume he was guilty because that's what I did.

SPEAKER_01 39:18

Right. It's what it is what it looks like.

SPEAKER_00 39:20

Right. Not yeah, you're right. 99% of the time, that's exactly what it is.

SPEAKER_01 39:25

And once I realized it also seems weird that there was another roommate home who didn't hear the gunshots.

SPEAKER_00 39:31

Well, again, she so according to that one report, she wasn't home when it happened. She had come home at some point that day, had didn't see Heather on the couch, and was in her room when police knocked on the door.

SPEAKER_01 39:48

But I don't Oh, okay, so the time in in between the incident and the police even getting there was a long time.

SPEAKER_00 39:53

Yeah, it was because so according to the reports, most of the reports, the killers, Richie and his father Larry, had come on the 23rd. But it wasn't until but it wasn't until Christmas Day that his father came looking for him. So there was two days of Ryan being disoriented and not realizing that Heather's dead on the couch.

unknown 40:17

Holy fuck.

SPEAKER_00 40:19

Yeah, he survived a long time.

SPEAKER_01 40:22

Oh fucking crazy. There's a fucking bullet in his face, dude.

SPEAKER_00 40:27

Yeah, I mean, and like you said, there's pressure. So he probably just thought he was sick, maybe, but he was probably so disoriented. And like you said, there's a lot of brain damage there.

SPEAKER_01 40:36

Yes, so much.

SPEAKER_00 40:37

So by the time I mean that's and when you go back now, if you were to if you re-listen to this later, you'll hear it throughout. Like he's like, you know, I don't know that she's on the couch. Like he's not fucking with anybody, he's not high, he's literally brain damage. Yeah, just yeah, it's fucked. So that's why once I once I knew about this case, I was like, we have to do this one. Yeah, it's too crazy, and really, Phoenix, you need to do better.

SPEAKER_01 41:04

Just saying, absolutely, and this is 20 years ago, but I have my doubts that anything's changed.

SPEAKER_00 41:10

Oh my god, you're right. It was 20 years ago.

SPEAKER_01 41:13

Fuck.

SPEAKER_00 41:14

Time I know. What the fuck? It doesn't feel that long ago.

SPEAKER_01 41:18

No, it really doesn't.

SPEAKER_00 41:20

I'm old, I'm going to bed.

SPEAKER_01 41:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:25

Oh my. Well, again, thank you everybody for listening. Once again, I'm Janice Dead.

SPEAKER_01 41:30

And I'm Joyce Dead.

SPEAKER_00 41:31

And we'll see you next week.

SPEAKER_01 41:33

Bye.