Episode 167: Cary Stayner

In this episode Janus and Joyous discuss the murders at Yosemite National Park committed by Cary Stayner. After his brother had survived an abduction and became a hero, Cary dragged his family name through the mud by becoming a serial killer.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Unsung Murder Ballads is a true crime podcast, and as such, we will be discussing topics that are disturbing, graphic, and often violent in nature. So this is not for children under the age of 13.

SPEAKER_03 0:12

But you know this because you did start playing this episode. So here are some things you might not know about us.

SPEAKER_00 0:18

We are going to be critical of mistakes made by both criminals and law enforcement.

SPEAKER_03 0:22

We're going to express our views on things that you might not always agree with.

SPEAKER_00 0:26

We will occasionally go on an off-topic tangent.

SPEAKER_03 0:29

And we're going to use dark humor to express ourselves now and then.

SPEAKER_00 0:33

So if you're easily triggered, this might not be the podcast for you.

SPEAKER_03 0:38

However, if this is your cup of tea, then raise your pinky finger while you sip and join us for this week's horrific case, you sick bastards.

SPEAKER_00 0:57

This is episode 167. I am Janice Dead.

SPEAKER_03 1:00

And I'm Joyce Dead.

SPEAKER_00 1:02

Okay, so uh tonight we have um I don't know how else to explain this. We have a case that's gonna be the intro, the teaser is another case.

SPEAKER_02 1:16

Oh, yes, okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:18

It's different.

SPEAKER_02 1:19

Fascinating.

SPEAKER_00 1:20

It's different, and I gotta say, this case has been on my list since the very, very beginning. I wrote to the perpetrator of this case in prison, and this is the only person who has ever responded to us.

SPEAKER_03 1:36

Wow, okay. I'm excited now. This is spicy.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

This is fucked up.

SPEAKER_03 1:41

We got an inside take, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

Not really. And that's the I guess technically the disappointing part. Had it had that response gone better, yes, maybe I it would have been done sooner, and maybe there'd been a bigger buildup for it. But no. But we'll we'll get to we'll get to that at the end, I promise.

SPEAKER_03 2:01

Alright, well, first the teaser case, I guess, right?

SPEAKER_00 2:04

Well, yeah, and and it's funny because I guess really the talking about the letter is probably the biggest teaser of it all.

SPEAKER_03 2:10

Yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_00 2:12

So before the world had ever known the name Carrie Staner, it was more familiar with the name of his younger brother, Steven Staner. And you cannot separate these two stories and still do this case justice. So I said instead of a teaser, we're gonna talk about the case of Stephen Stanner. On the afternoon of December 4th, 1972, Stephen was approached on his way home from school by a man named Irvin Murphy, who had become acquaintances with a convicted child molester named Kenneth Parnell.

SPEAKER_03 2:50

Oh, don't like the way this is starting.

SPEAKER_00 2:53

No, this is a I should give a trigger warning. Yes, this does involve things with minors, especially this teasing this teaser episode. Both Parnell and Murphy were co-workers at a resort at Yosemite National Park. Now, funny side note.

SPEAKER_03 3:11

Oh, and I hate to think of people like that working at a resort with access to families. I hate that.

SPEAKER_00 3:17

Absolutely terrifying. And I did hear a case once where they kept mispronouncing Yosemite as Yosemite, and I was laughing my ass off the whole time.

SPEAKER_03 3:26

That is so funny. It's like when my my parents would read Harry Potter to me as a child, and we they would call her Hermione instead of Hermione because because the movies hadn't come out yet.

SPEAKER_00 3:37

Right. Well, I I can forgive someone for not knowing Yosemite if they were from another country. This was a Canadian podcast I was listening to. But also, if you're not familiar with Yosemite Sam from Bugs Bunny, then I kind of can also forgive you.

SPEAKER_03 3:52

It's extremely valid.

SPEAKER_00 3:53

Because that's how I know how to do it. Oh yeah. The I remember the first word I was ever corrected publicly, trying to read without knowing what it was supposed to sound like was anxious.

SPEAKER_03 4:07

Oh yeah. How are you supposed to look at that and know?

SPEAKER_00 4:11

Exactly. As a kid, I said anxious. Like anxiety.

SPEAKER_03 4:16

Valid, you know, that's phonetically valid.

SPEAKER_00 4:18

And they were like the teacher, like literally laughed. It was like that's why I remember it, because it was embarrassing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:25

You know. That sucks. That sucks because I I feel like if I heard someone say that, I would giggle too, but just of like the because of the funny happenstance that I'm like, yeah, no, that makes sense. That's funny. The e of course you would think that it's said like that. Right. That's why I'm not a teacher of children.

SPEAKER_00 4:41

Right. Yes. Same.

SPEAKER_03 4:44

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 4:44

Yeah. So back to uh Steven Stainer here. So the the man he met on his way home, Irving Murphy, was described by those who knew him as trusting, naive, and simple-minded. And he had been enlisted by Parnell to help him in abducting a young boy. Now, Parnell convinced Murphy that he was an aspiring minister, and he wanted help to get a boy so that Parnell could raise him in a religious environment. So Murphy.

SPEAKER_03 5:20

What the fuck?

SPEAKER_00 5:22

Yeah, Murphy fell for this.

SPEAKER_03 5:23

What a fucking dumbass.

SPEAKER_00 5:27

So acting on instruction.

SPEAKER_03 5:28

That's the weirdest thing I ever heard.

SPEAKER_00 5:30

It is fucked up. But it was the 70s. He is I'm pretty sure this guy has a serious learning disability. Um, yeah. That's all I've got.

SPEAKER_03 5:39

And probably pre-the scandals of church abuse of children came out.

SPEAKER_00 5:44

Way, way before that. We didn't really start hearing about that stuff until the 90s. So and this is the 60s. Gotcha. No, sorry, the early 70s. So acting on instructions from Parnell, Murphy passed out religious tracts to boys that were walking home from school. And that day, after seeing Stephen, he approached him and claimed to be a church representative seeking donations. Now Stephen later claimed that Murphy asked him if his mother would be willing to donate any items they had at home to the church. The boy, Stephen, replied that yeah, she probably would. And then unfortunately he how old is he? Probably I think seven or eight.

SPEAKER_03 6:31

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_00 6:32

So of course he said that he would, and Stephen got into a vehicle with Murphy. And he had he was like, Yeah, let's go to my house, we'll get some stuff. And he gets into a white Buick that was being driven by Parnell. And yeah, and he got into the car with the two men, and as they drove off, Stephen was kind of confused, but what is he gonna do? He's a kid and he's now with these two grown adults, and of course, they don't drive him home, they drive him to a cabin near Kathy's Valley, California, instead. Oh no. Now unfortunately, Stephen didn't realize that this cabin was actually located because he didn't know where the hell they went. He didn't realize it was actually located several hundred feet from his mother's father's house. His own grandfather's house. He was so close to like safety, but he had no idea that he was.

SPEAKER_03 7:34

Oh, that's so sad.

SPEAKER_00 7:37

So of course, Parnell sexually assaulted Steven that first night at that cabin. Poor kid. And the assaults turned into full-blown rape 13 days later on December 17th.

SPEAKER_01 7:53

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 7:55

Yeah. So after Steven told Parnell many times during that first week of captivity that he wanted to go home, Parnell told him and convinced him that he had been granted legal custody of him because his parents could no longer afford to have so many children and that they didn't want him anymore.

SPEAKER_03 8:20

Oh, that's so messed up, this poor kid.

SPEAKER_00 8:25

Parnell stopped calling Stephen by his real name and started referring to him as Dennis Gregory Parnell. Yeah. And somehow he obtained fake documents and actually enrolled Steven in schools over the next several years.

SPEAKER_02 8:45

Whoa.

SPEAKER_00 8:46

Yeah. Stephen would be kept in captivity for years.

SPEAKER_03 8:51

Oh, that's so awful.

SPEAKER_00 8:54

Now Parnell passed himself off as Stephen's father, and the two moved around frequently across California, living in locations such as Compache and Santa Pa Santa Rosa.

SPEAKER_03 9:06

Ugh, and this kid is like believing that he wasn't kidnapped.

SPEAKER_00 9:10

Yeah, he's not putting up any fight. He believes his parents didn't want him anymore.

SPEAKER_03 9:14

Oh, that is so heartbreaking.

SPEAKER_00 9:17

Yeah, it's so fucked. So fucked. Now, Parnell allowed Steven to start drinking alcohol at a young age. And he basically let him come and go as he pleased. Because Steven doesn't know any better. And Parnell himself went from one job to another, these basically menial jobs, just to kind of have money coming in. And some of that work allowed him to travel, and he would even leave Stephen behind unsupervised. Oh. Now, obviously, Steven could have used these absences to flee, to kind of run, but he didn't know where to go, where he was, or how to even summon help. Because again, he thinks his parents don't want him.

SPEAKER_03 10:02

Yeah, he like, he might just think this is my life now, and it's awful.

SPEAKER_00 10:06

Right. So to help with loneliness, Parnell gave Stephen a Manchester Terrier dog that he named Queenie. Now, ironically, this dog was actually given to Parnell by his own mother, who was not aware that Steven existed during his time being held.

SPEAKER_02 10:24

Whoa.

SPEAKER_00 10:25

Yeah. During a period of 18 months while Steven's being held, a woman named Barbara Matthias lived with them.

SPEAKER_03 10:34

What the fuck?

SPEAKER_00 10:35

Yep. And Matthias, along with Parnell, sexually abused Steven on at least nine separate occasions when he was nine years old.

SPEAKER_03 10:45

Oh. The woman too? Oh, that's so fucked up. I guess fucked up people find each other.

SPEAKER_00 10:50

Yeah, it like finds like. Exactly. In 1975, on Parnell's instructions, Matthias tried to lure another young boy who was in the Santa Rosa Boys' Club with Steven into Parnell's car. Luckily, this attempt was unsuccessful. Matthias later claimed that she had been completely unaware that Dennis had been kidnapped, aka Stephen.

SPEAKER_03 11:21

Oh, so you just thought you were raping your man's actual son? Cool, cool, cool.

SPEAKER_00 11:26

That makes it all better, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:28

Yep. No, you're oh wow, that you're oh, totally in the clear.

SPEAKER_00 11:32

So totally alright. Slap on the wrist. There you go. As Stephen entered puberty, Parnell began to look for a younger child to abduct.

SPEAKER_03 11:43

Oh gross.

SPEAKER_00 11:44

Parnell then used Stephen to help him attempt to kidnap children on numerous occasions, but all these kidnapping attempts were unsuccessful. This caused Parnell to believe that Stephen lacked the means to be his accomplice. And Stephen is obviously intentionally sabotaging these kidnappings.

SPEAKER_03 12:04

Right, of course.

SPEAKER_00 12:06

On February 14th, 1980, Parnell and a teenage friend of Stephen's named Randall Poorman kidnapped a five-year-old named Timothy White in Ukaya. Now, motivated in part by this young boy's distress, Steven decided to return this boy to his parents.

SPEAKER_03 12:29

Good kid.

SPEAKER_00 12:30

So weeks later, unfortunately, because we're talking about children here, on March 1st, 1980, while Parnell was away at his night security job, Stephen left the house with Timothy and hitchhiked to Ukaya, California. Now they're walking around this town, but they were unable to locate Timothy's residence, so they went to a police station.

SPEAKER_03 12:54

Good.

SPEAKER_00 12:56

By daybreak on March 2nd, Parnell had been arrested on suspicion of abducting both boys.

SPEAKER_02 13:03

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 13:04

When the police checked into his background, they found previous sodomy convictions from 1951.

SPEAKER_01 13:12

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 13:13

Yeah. So both children were reunited with their families that day. Now, Parnell.

SPEAKER_03 13:21

Oh wow. And even in like the 80s, they were able to find his parents that fast. That's really good.

SPEAKER_00 13:26

Yeah, I'm well, once they realize once they're they're told his name, I'm sure that was all over the newspaper while he was missing. You know?

SPEAKER_03 13:34

That's true.

SPEAKER_00 13:35

Parnell was tried and convicted in 1981 of kidnapping Timothy and Steven in two separate trials. He was sentenced to only seven years.

SPEAKER_03 13:46

What?

SPEAKER_00 13:47

And was paroled after serving five.

SPEAKER_03 13:51

Are you fucking kidding me?

SPEAKER_00 13:53

No. This country sucks when uh punishing predators. Like Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:02

Oh my fucking God.

SPEAKER_00 14:04

Yep. He had this kid for like six years.

SPEAKER_03 14:08

I mean, if I'm understanding this timeline correctly, that doesn't even like count. Like it's not even the amount of time that he held these children prisoner. Like he held Steven prisoner for longer than he would spend in prison. Are you fucking serious?

SPEAKER_00 14:22

That's exactly how this plays out, yes.

SPEAKER_03 14:25

There's no fucking justice in this country. And you know what? I think there is, and I don't know the statistics on it, but I know that sexual assault against men is often not taken as seriously, not given the same, you know, charges and not given the same punishments as sexual assault against women. And that's that's something that needs to be said and is really fucking sad.

SPEAKER_00 14:47

Well, the good news is some states are taking the sexual assault of children more seriously now, where they are discussing making it like death penalty punishable. So Right.

SPEAKER_03 14:58

I've seen that, but then isn't that just incentivize a rapist to also murder their victims?

SPEAKER_00 15:03

Yeah, probably. That's true.

SPEAKER_03 15:05

Right? If it's the same punishment?

SPEAKER_00 15:07

That's true. Well, Parnell was not charged with the numerous sexual assaults on Stephen and other boys because most of them occurred outside the jurisdiction of the county where he was arrested, and by the time he was arrested, a lot of the crimes were outside of the statute of limitations.

SPEAKER_03 15:28

Fuck the goddamn statute of limitations on that shit.

SPEAKER_00 15:31

Agreed. I don't know why there is statute of limitations on child sexual assault in particular.

SPEAKER_03 15:37

I agree. It's fucked up.

SPEAKER_00 15:40

The Medicino County prosecutors, acting almost entirely alone, decided not to prosecute Parnell for the sexual assaults that occurred occurred in their jurisdiction. So I just don't think they had the laws agreed. I just don't think they had the laws in place at the time to really know how to punish them.

SPEAKER_03 16:02

I hate it. I fucking hate it.

SPEAKER_00 16:04

So Murphy for helping kidnap Stephen and Poorman for helping kidnap Timothy were convicted on lesser charges. Both claimed they knew nothing about the sexual assault on Stephen, and Matthias, the woman, was never arrested.

SPEAKER_03 16:21

Are you shitting me?

SPEAKER_00 16:22

Nope.

SPEAKER_03 16:24

I hate it. I hate it so much. These people are just gonna go out there and hurt more children.

SPEAKER_00 16:28

Yeah, basically. Now Stephen remembered the kindness of Uncle Murphy that had that he had shown him in his first week of captivity while they were both under the influence of Parnell's manipulation. And he believed that Murphy was as much a victim of Parnell as he and Timothy were. Wow. It's weird.

SPEAKER_03 16:50

So Stephen Yeah, I mean, it's in a scary situation like that, like anyone showing you kindness. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:57

Well, I mean, again, I think this guy may have had a serious learning disability, and he may have been another victim.

SPEAKER_03 17:03

So that's true.

SPEAKER_00 17:05

So Stephen's kidnapping in the aftermath prompted California lawmakers to change state laws to allow consecutive prison terms in abduction cases. Because apparently that wasn't a thing either.

SPEAKER_03 17:20

The fuck?

SPEAKER_00 17:21

Again, it's this the 70s. At this point, it's the eighties. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 17:26

Glad they fixed this shit.

SPEAKER_00 17:28

Yeah, finally. So Steven was finally home again, and the Stainers' family lives were changed overnight. Cameras arrived and reporters camped out fr outside their home. The trauma that Steven had endured became a matter of public record as their family struggled to adjust.

SPEAKER_03 17:49

That's so awful. In addition to the trauma, the public spectacle of it is so awful.

SPEAKER_00 17:55

And meanwhile, Stephen's older brother Carrie, who was then eleven, watched silently from the edges of everything. He was less he was less interviewed, he was less understood, and he was less seen. So Carrie Stainer was born on August 13, 1961, the first of five children born to Delbert Foy and Kay Stainer in Merced, California. He had three sisters and one younger brother, Stephen. Teachers later described Carrie Stainer as a quiet, shy, and artistically talented kid, but classmates remembered something else. He had like a sort of shimmering detachment. By the age of three, Stainer was diagnosed with trichtotilomania.

SPEAKER_03 18:50

Trichotilomania?

SPEAKER_00 18:51

Thank you. And he was put on medication. And though the condition continued to affect him during his high school years, the consequential bald spots that he had led him to s uh being severely bullied and having to perpetually wear like a baseball cap.

SPEAKER_03 19:09

Oh, poor kid. That shit's rough.

SPEAKER_00 19:13

Now he exhibited intelligence, and he was noted by classmates and teachers to have put in excel to that he was put in accelerated classes as a result. So people knew that he was smart. But he also dealt with it.

SPEAKER_03 19:27

Yeah, that's like almost gonna get him more bullied.

SPEAKER_00 19:29

Right. And he also dealt with anxiety, OCD-like compulsions, and in an inability to fit in.

SPEAKER_03 19:38

Yeah, that's I mean, OCD like compulsions is a trick to mania.

SPEAKER_00 19:42

Oh yeah, that's true too. So after after graduating, he worked as a window installer at a glass company where he developed a fantasy about ramming a truck into the workplace, killing everyone there, and then setting the building on fire.

SPEAKER_03 19:59

Oh dear, we're having some dark thoughts.

SPEAKER_00 20:01

Yes, we are. So while Stephen's story had become this symbol of hope and survival, Carrie was struggling internally, and that only deepened.

SPEAKER_03 20:13

Right, and I'm sure like it's harder to notice that he's struggling when his younger brother is just traumatized beyond belief.

SPEAKER_00 20:20

Right. And then in 1989, tragedy struck their family again. Steven Stainer, now a young husband and father, died in a motorcycle accident at the age of 24. Oh, that's awful. The family was devastated. And by now, Carrie was in his mid-20s and he became completely unmoored. Oh. Friends would later say that the trauma of Stephen's kidnapping and the overwhelming attention it had brought had cast a long shadow over Carrie's life. In 1991, he tried to kill himself with carbon monoxide poisoning. Oh. In 1995, he was admitted to a psychiatric hospital after claiming he had a nervous breakdown, but he was released after receiving some treatment. He was then arrested in 1997 for possession of marijuana and methamphetamines, although these charges were dear. They would eventually be dropped. So by the late 90s, Carrie had drifted through a series of jobs. He had been a mechanic, a handyman, and a maintenance worker. He often struggled to keep employment due to anxiety and episodes of depression. But eventually he found stability at one place. It was a place called Cedar Lodge. And Cedar Lodge was a rustic motel located just outside Yosemite National Park. The same place that hired the two guys that abducted his brother, coincidentally.

SPEAKER_03 21:58

Wait, really?

SPEAKER_00 22:00

Yeah. I mean they worked for the park itself, not the hotel.

SPEAKER_03 22:04

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 22:05

Right. So this place is a popular stop for tourists, families, backpackers, and international viewers, visitors. Stainer worked as a handyman there. He fixed air conditioners, cleaned up debris, performed odd jobs, and basically helped keep the property running. Co-workers remembered him as being calm and polite. Some found him a little too quiet. Later, a few women would recall that there were moments that made them uneasy. That sometimes he lingered when he stared at them. He made inappropriate comments, but nothing that rose to the level of them needing to actually make a complaint.

SPEAKER_03 22:45

So he's just kind of a weird dude.

SPEAKER_00 22:46

He is a weird dude, that's for sure. And if you know anything about his history with his brother, you could almost forgive him for it.

SPEAKER_03 22:53

Right, exactly. Like it's almost like, yeah, I would expect that.

SPEAKER_00 22:58

So in early 1999, Yosemite National Park was preparing for one of its busiest seasons. Now normally the park attracted millions of visitors every year, and it was a symbol of natural beauty, freedom, and safety. On February 15th, 1999, three women checked into Cedar Lodge. There was 42-year-old Carol Sund, her 15-year-old daughter Julie, and their family friend, 16-year-old Sylvina Peloso, who was visiting from Argentina. They planned to spend a few days exploring Yosemite, so they went into their room, they unpacked, they relaxed, they went out to dinner, and then they returned to their room. And then they disappeared.

SPEAKER_03 23:45

Oh no.

SPEAKER_00 23:46

When Carol's rental car wasn't returned on schedule, her husband contacted the police. The women had missed their next hotel reservation and their flight. Now the disappearance of the disappearance of three tourists inside one of America's most beloved parks triggered immediate concern. But the search was complicated because Yosemite's terrain is kind of crazy. There are mountains, rivers, forests, cliffs, and snow if you get into the higher elevations.

SPEAKER_03 24:20

Right, and like people getting lost in national parks is like something that happens. So I can totally assume like their first thought would be, oh, they must have gone into the park and gotten lost.

SPEAKER_00 24:30

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 24:31

Eaten by a bear, whatever.

SPEAKER_00 24:33

Anything. So helicopters scanned the ridgelines. Search teams combed trails. Rangers reviewed trail headlogs and visitor records, but they didn't find anything. And news of these missing tourists spread nationwide. Reporters were camped out at the lodge, and every guest was questioned. Every employee was interviewed, including the quiet handyman Carrie Stainer. Now detectives noted And what did he say? Well they noted nothing unusual about him. He was just one of many. Then on March 18, 1999, more than one month after the women vanished, investigators received a call. A burned out car that had been found near a remote logging road outside of Yosemite. It was Carol Sund's rental car. It was burned out. Inside the trunk, investigators found the burned remains of two individuals. Dental records confirmed that they belonged to Carol Sund and Sylvina Peloso. Carol Carol had been strangled with a rope and shot, while Savina had been shot but had been raped. Oh and there was no sign of and there was no sign of fifteen year old Julie Sund. Public fear intensified as families started canceling vacations and travelers just abandoned their reservations. Yosemite saw a huge drop in tourism. The FBI The FBI became involved, and agents interviewed the lodge staff again. They reviewed security footage and created offender profiles. At this point, their attention turned towards a different handyman named Mike Larson, who had a criminal past and was present the night the women disappeared. He became their focus, and of course, once that happened, media speculation followed. Meanwhile, Carrie Stainer faded into the background. He was seen as polite, quiet, and because he had no criminal record, he didn't jump out at anybody.

SPEAKER_03 27:00

Right, I'm sure he's not what their criminal or their perpetrator profile is.

SPEAKER_00 27:05

Yeah, like when you look into his background, how many people are gonna be like, oh, his brother was abducted? He couldn't possibly do that himself.

SPEAKER_03 27:14

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 27:17

In so many ways it's so stupid.

SPEAKER_03 27:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:22

So on March 24th, an anonymous caller contacted the police with a tip. The voice gave directions to a specific location miles away from where the car had been found. The person on the phone said that investigators would find something important there. So of course, search teams followed those instructions. Near a roadside turnout, beneath a layer of brush, they found a handwritten note.

SPEAKER_03 27:50

Oh, not this fucking scavenger hunt bullshit.

SPEAKER_00 27:55

On top of the note read quote, We had fun with this one. Unquote. Oh. Inside was a crudely drawn map of a location with an X marking a particular spot. Oh. Investigators followed the map.

SPEAKER_03 28:14

This is gonna be horrifying to be the person who goes there and has to open this note and like confront this reality of what you're gonna discover.

SPEAKER_00 28:21

Right? Like how it's like a twisted game of like pirates, you know? So stupid.

SPEAKER_03 28:26

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 28:27

Investigators followed the map, and that's where they found the remains of Julie Sund. She had she had been raped and her throat had been cut.

SPEAKER_01 28:38

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 28:40

So this case officially this case officially became a triple homicide. The anonymous call was traced to a payphone, and police found clear fingerprints there, but there were no matches in their system.

SPEAKER_03 28:54

Right, because he's never been arrested for anything.

SPEAKER_00 28:58

They all they knew really was that this killer was organized, deliberate, and of course, still unknown. FBI released an official statement announcing a manhunt. At Cedar Lodge, some employees panicked while others quit. Some stayed under tight scrutiny. And of course, one of their employees seemed strangely unaffected.

SPEAKER_03 29:24

Huh.

SPEAKER_00 29:24

And of course, we're talking Carrie Stainer.

SPEAKER_03 29:28

Right. I guess they probably didn't announce that they had fingerprints.

SPEAKER_00 29:32

I mean, if he's not in the system, he's not worried, right?

SPEAKER_03 29:36

Well, I mean, they could come to his work and fingerprint everybody, couldn't they?

SPEAKER_00 29:39

Honestly, that's you're I wish you had worked for that that company, the police back then, because you would have saved other people's lives.

SPEAKER_03 29:47

Oh no.

SPEAKER_00 29:49

We're not done yet. He's a serial killer.

SPEAKER_03 29:52

Oh Jesus.

SPEAKER_00 29:55

So Carrie maintained his quiet routine, making small talk and working his shifts. Behind the scenes, however, he his mental state was unraveling. Months passed and tourism slowly returned. Life at Cedar Lodge settled back into a tense normal. Stainer left his job shortly afterwards and spent some time hiking, driving, and wandering the forest of Yosemite. In July of nineteen ninety nine, tensions in the park returned because on the 22nd, naturalist Joy Armstrong, who was twenty six, was found decapitated near her cabin inside Yosemite.

SPEAKER_03 30:42

Oh god.

SPEAKER_00 30:43

She had been scheduled to meet friends in Sauceled, but never arrived. And when Rangers checked her cabins, they saw signs of a struggle. And a short search of that of her property led to the discovery of her remains. This time, however, investigators had something they didn't in the previous instant witnesses.

SPEAKER_03 31:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 31:10

Several park employees reported seeing a vehicle near Joyce Cabin. A blue International Scout. And they described the driver as tall, thin, and bald. But most importantly, they recognized him as Carrie Stainer.

SPEAKER_03 31:29

Oh, right, because he like had worked nearby for a long time.

SPEAKER_00 31:33

Correct. So investigators dug deeper, and they discovered that Stainer had been the last person to see Joy Armstrong alive. He had spoken with her earlier that day while she watered her plants outside her cabin. So with this information, Stainer instantly shifted from obscure lodge handyman to the prime suspect in four homicides. Wow. So a bull order of be on the lookout was issued for Stainer and his blue scout. As agents searched the park, Stainer quietly slipped away.

SPEAKER_03 32:11

Damn. It's big park.

SPEAKER_00 32:13

Yes. Well he left the park. As smart as you can be.

SPEAKER_03 32:17

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:18

He drove south and checked into the Laguna del Sol nudist resort near Sacramento.

SPEAKER_03 32:26

Yeah, no one's looking that close at each other.

SPEAKER_00 32:30

That's I I guess. I guess you're not looking at someone's face, right?

SPEAKER_03 32:35

Right. Apparently, you know, we're all freaks here, kind of vibe.

SPEAKER_00 32:39

Yeah, sure. But apparently he visited there apparently he visited there often and no one asked any questions. But investigators were closing in. On the 24th of July 99, FBI agents located Stainer's vehicle parked outside that resort, so they waited. Hours later, Stainer calmly walked out. He was unarmed, and when they approached him, he made no attempt to flee. In fact, as they got up to him, he raised his hands and said, I know what you're here for. Well, all right. Which I believe is the exact same thing Albert Fish said when they arrested him.

SPEAKER_03 33:21

Yeah, I feel like we yeah, we've heard this like a few times where they're like, Oh, well, I guess you got me. I give up.

SPEAKER_00 33:27

I was gonna say, I think BTK said something like that, as did Son of Sam. Yeah, they like to do that. So agents detained him and transported him in for questioning. During the drive, Stainer was oddly relaxed and calm. He was in no way confused or even combative, and in fact, he seemed almost relieved.

SPEAKER_03 33:52

I mean, being on the run can't be fun.

SPEAKER_00 33:55

I mean, at a nudist camp, I guess that it elevates the fun a little. Maybe.

unknown 34:01

I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 34:02

I've never actually been to one.

SPEAKER_03 34:06

Me neither.

SPEAKER_00 34:07

It honestly doesn't seem like it would be my place, but I don't know. Who knows?

SPEAKER_03 34:11

No, it's like it's one of those things that I feel like is like a fantasy, but you don't want to do it in real life.

SPEAKER_00 34:17

I agree with you. I don't I don't think it's something I would want to do in real life.

unknown 34:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:22

No, and it's the people who want to be there that are never the people you want to see.

SPEAKER_00 34:27

Exactly. It's like going to like a sex party, like a swinger party. You know, like I'm sure there's just a lot of people there that you don't really want to see, you know?

SPEAKER_03 34:36

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 34:38

That's my guess. So at the Sacramento FBI office, Stainer made a request. He wanted a milkshake and a pack of cigarettes.

SPEAKER_03 34:52

Okay, sure.

SPEAKER_00 34:54

And once agents obliged, they Stainer just opened up and started talking.

SPEAKER_03 35:00

Well, there you go. Catch more flies with honey.

SPEAKER_00 35:03

What followed became one of the most disturbing confessions in California history. According to agents present, Stainer confessed to all four more murders, and he also confessed to something else. That he that he had fantasized about harming women since his childhood. Oh. He claimed that he had started struggling with violent thoughts for from decades before. He felt overwhelming compulsions and believed that he was broken inside. His confession stunned investigators who had initially believed that Sund and Peloso, those first three murders, the two Sundwomen and Peloso, were committed by multiple offenders. Oh. They thought the level of planning that must have gone into it had to have been the work of more than one person. They weren't even looking for one individual.

SPEAKER_03 35:56

Whoa.

SPEAKER_00 35:57

Yeah, that's how he flew under the radar.

SPEAKER_03 35:59

Yeah, I can must be difficult for one person to abduct three people. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 36:04

Well, my guess is if you have a weapon and you basically say to one, if you try to run, I'll kill the other two, and you do that, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 36:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:12

Then you now feel that if you do something stupid, you're responsible for the other people's death. It's like that scene from The Green Mile. So once the news of Carrie's arrest broke, the public was stunned. The Stainer name was familiar, and it was associated with Steven, this child hero who not only escaped cap captivity, but had rescued another kid.

SPEAKER_03 36:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:39

And for the Stainer parents, this was a nightmare that just sort of resurfaced.

SPEAKER_03 36:45

Oh, right. And I mean, like, Steven's already already passed away in a horrible accident.

SPEAKER_00 36:50

And now their youngest survived to become a notorious killer. Yeah. Sorry, their oldest. Yeah. The psychological impact on their family was devastating. Experts debated the connection, wondering if Steven's kidnapping had somehow triggered something in Carrie. Now most psychologists, most psychologists believe the answer is no. Basically, they they were like, most people that suffer this, they don't then go on to become killers. So they don't believe that that really contributed. Now Stainer faced charges in both federal and state court. Federal prosecutors focused on the Joy Armstrong case, which occurred on federal land, and that trial was swift as Stainer pled guilty. He was sentenced to life without parole in federal custody.

SPEAKER_03 37:46

Alright.

SPEAKER_00 37:47

But the more high-profile trial, the one that drew national attention, was the one that involved Carol and Judy Sund and Sylvina Peloso. Stainer's defense attempted to argue that childhood trauma, family mental illness, history, obsessive compulsive disorder, delusions, and a lifetime of violent fantasies had somehow pushed him over the edge.

SPEAKER_03 38:16

Is that I'm sorry, is that an argument against putting him away? I don't get it.

SPEAKER_00 38:20

That's their that's they're basically saying this is why he's done it, and he they're arguing diminished capacity.

SPEAKER_03 38:27

I hate that shit. I don't care why you're a fucked up person. You're a fucked up person.

SPEAKER_00 38:32

Exactly. Psychiatrist evaluated him extensively, and some concluded that he had severe mental disorders. While others argue Yeah, I'm sure he did.

SPEAKER_03 38:42

I'm sure I can conclude that.

SPEAKER_00 38:44

Right? And others argued that he was fully aware of his actions and had carefully planned the killings. Now California law does not absolve offenders solely because they have fantasies and compulsions.

SPEAKER_03 38:59

Yeah, I sure hope not.

SPEAKER_00 39:01

But to be declared legally insane, a defendant must be unable to understand the nature of their acts or unable to distinguish right from wrong. And Steiner's behavior during the crimes, the planning, the concealment, the evasion, suggested that he knew exactly what he was doing. So the state trial began in 2002 in Santa Clara County, and it was moved due to intense publicity in the Yosemite region. Prosecutors presented evidence showing that Stainer had stalked his victims, exploited his access to the lodge, acted alone, attempted to hide evidence, deliberately misled investigators, and that he enjoyed the sense of control he gained from his crimes. And the defense centered on mental health.

SPEAKER_03 39:55

Whatever.

SPEAKER_00 39:56

Exactly. After weeks of testimony, the jury deliberated, and they found Carrie Stainer guilty on all counts, and he was sentenced to death and transferred to San Quentin State Prison, where he remains to this day.

SPEAKER_03 40:13

Oh shit.

SPEAKER_00 40:14

Yeah, because it's California and the death penalty. Most people die of old age at this point.

SPEAKER_03 40:21

Right.

SPEAKER_00 40:22

Yeah. So kind of bullshit.

SPEAKER_03 40:24

I mean, that's the same as his original conviction, which was life in prison, so whatever.

SPEAKER_00 40:28

Basically, yeah. So the Yosemite murders change the way National Park Services approach visitor safety, missing persons, protocols, and employee background checks. But before we wrap this up entirely, I do need to address some victims that might have been killed by Carrie Stainer.

SPEAKER_03 40:48

Oh. There are some unsolved cases. Even though he didn't like admit to them openly?

SPEAKER_00 40:52

Correct. There are some unsolved cases that may have been him.

SPEAKER_03 40:56

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 40:57

Given that similar offenders often started their killing sprees younger than their first known killing, everyone seems to think that these listed the people I'm about to list were additional victims of Carrie Stainer. There's Patricia Marie Hicks Dahlstrom, 28, who last contacted family in September of 1982 after relocating to Merced, California from Washington State. She was a member of the San Anda Apostolic Church, founded by cult leader Donald Gibson.

SPEAKER_02 41:35

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 41:35

Now, Donald Gibson was discovered to have carried out acts of sexual assault under religious pretenses.

SPEAKER_02 41:43

Gross.

SPEAKER_00 41:44

And after he was convicted of four sex offenders sex offenses in 1981, Hicks, the woman we're talking about here, Patricia left the cult and was last seen by her roommate taking public transportation to Yosemite National Park. A severed arm and a hand were recovered from the park in June of 83, and a skull would later be discovered in 88. Oh. Strangely, it took until 2021 for genetic genealogists to identify those remains as belonging to Patricia Hicks.

SPEAKER_02 42:28

Whoa.

SPEAKER_00 42:29

Carrie Stainer was a known acquaintance of that pedophile Pastor Gibson at the time of Gibson's 81 trial, which Stainer attended. Whoa. Authorities believe Stainer may have chosen to kill Patricia in retaliation again for testifying against Gibson.

SPEAKER_03 42:51

Oh, that's really fucked up.

SPEAKER_00 42:54

It's the sad part is it's entirely possible.

SPEAKER_03 42:57

It's possible, although I'm surprised he didn't admit to it.

SPEAKER_00 43:01

You know, you'd think so, but we'll get to the letter that he sent me back in a little bit too.

SPEAKER_03 43:06

Oh my god, I had totally forgotten he fucking wrote you back.

SPEAKER_00 43:10

Oh, just wait. We're not I forgot! Yeah, we're almost there. On December 26th, 1990, Stainer's paternal uncle, 42-year-old Jesse Stainer, was shot to death inside his Merced residence with his own shotgun.

SPEAKER_01 43:31

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 43:32

Now this murder was never solved, and Stainer, who lived with his uncle at the at a at the time of the shooting, became a suspect after his arrest.

SPEAKER_03 43:43

This poor family.

SPEAKER_00 43:46

But Stainer later claimed that his uncle had molested him around the time of Steven's kidnapping.

SPEAKER_03 43:54

That is so fucked up.

SPEAKER_00 43:56

So it's possible that Carrie Stainer kidnapped. Killed his own uncle. And he may have been justified in it in a weird way, if what he says is true. But you're right, his parents have gone through hell.

SPEAKER_03 44:12

Literal hell.

SPEAKER_00 44:15

In October of ninety four, severed human hands were found near the new Malone's reservoir. Then in December of ninety four, a handless and headless torso was found in a cluster of trees off Camp Nine Road and Vallecido.

SPEAKER_03 44:35

Jesus Christ.

SPEAKER_00 44:36

A forensic pathologist determined that the attached hands belonged to that body. In December of '95, the remains were identified to belong to twenty-four-year-old Sherolyn Murphy. Her head has never been found. The FBI investigated Sherilyn's death to determine a link to Stainer due to similarities between her death and the murder of Joy Armstrong. Authorities have reviewed the case of 34-year-old Denise Smith, whose decomposed body was discovered in a 50-gallon burn barrel off Jacksonville Road near the Don Pedro Reservoir in December of 94. I know. He could have been, like I said, he's most likely a much more prolific serial killer. And Michael Larry Madden, age 20. He planned to meet friends at a sand at a place called the Sandbar Flat Campground in Stanelas National Forest near Sonona in October in August of 96, basically just for camping and fishing. He left his family around 5 a.m. and was never seen again. At 2 a.m. on the 12th, his companion showed up to the predetermined spot but found no signs of him. So days later, they didn't see him. And authorities do consider that Madden may have been the victim of Carrie Stanner.

SPEAKER_03 46:12

Oh, I guess it's possible.

SPEAKER_00 46:14

Now, the letter I wrote to Carrie Stanner. We're gonna wrap this up with this letter. This motherfucker, he wrote me back, and I'm not even kidding you. It was a very short response, and I initially thought at the time I might reach out to him again and try to open up a dialogue and get like some first hand account shit, right? But he in the letter he wrote back to me, told me that I should contact the FBI and ask them and ask them why there's never any discussion about the Bigfoot sightings in Yosemite Park at the time of these murders.

SPEAKER_03 47:06

Yep. Yep. Jesus.

SPEAKER_00 47:08

Bigfoot sightings. Yep, that's what I got back.

SPEAKER_03 47:12

Bigfoot sightings. This weird fucking man.

SPEAKER_00 47:16

So I don't know if he was just fucking with me or if he really fucking believes this shit. But in that moment, I knew it wasn't worth communicating with him any further.

SPEAKER_03 47:29

No, there's nothing coming out of that.

SPEAKER_00 47:32

Bigfoot. Yep. Bigfoot did it.

SPEAKER_03 47:34

Unless you're a Bigfoot investigator, uh, maybe then you want to talk to him.

SPEAKER_00 47:39

Yeah. So any any listeners who are big Bigfoot enthusiasts, you can reach out to Carrie Stain or he'll actually write you back.

SPEAKER_03 47:48

Wild. Well, yeah. I sure as fuck don't need to hear any more from him.

SPEAKER_00 47:53

Yeah, I couldn't believe it. I was like, fuck this guy. Again, whether he's crazy or just trying to fuck with me, fuck him. We're done. And that's why it took me so long to cover it. But it's a good case and it needed to be covered. But fuck this guy and his Bigfoot theory.

SPEAKER_03 48:11

Yeah, fuck this guy. You know who he should have killed is the guys who abducted his brother who were let out of prison almost immediately. Yeah, that was.

SPEAKER_00 48:17

Yeah, I agree with you. Vigil anti-justice would have been better than killing innocent women at a state park.

SPEAKER_03 48:24

Right.

SPEAKER_00 48:25

Yeah. Actually, it's a national park.

unknown 48:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:29

But yeah, so thank you everybody for joining us. Once again, I'm Janice Dead.

SPEAKER_03 48:33

And I'm Joyce Dead.

SPEAKER_00 48:35

And we'll see you next week.

SPEAKER_03 48:37

Bye.