Episode 171: Charles "Lucky" Luciano

In this episode Janus and Joyous discuss the life and many crimes of one of the Mafia's founding fathers, Lucky Luciano. Having been the visionary behind the way the 5 New York Mafia crime families structured themselves to insulate their leaders from liability, Luciano's legacy ensures.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Unsung Murder Ballads is a true crime podcast, and as such, we will be discussing topics that are disturbing, graphic, and often violent in nature. So this is not for children under the age of 13.

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But you know this because you did start playing this episode. So here are some things you might not know about us.

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We are going to be critical of mistakes made by both criminals and law enforcement.

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We're going to express our views on things that you might not always agree with.

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We will occasionally go on an off-topic tangent.

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And we're going to use dark humor to express ourselves now and then.

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So if you're easily triggered, this might not be the podcast for you.

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However, if this is your cup of tea, then raise your pinky finger while you sip and join us for this week's horrific case, you sick bastards.

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Hey everybody, welcome back to Unsung Murder Ballads. This is episode 171. I am Janice Dead.

SPEAKER_01 1:00

And I'm Joyce Dead.

SPEAKER_02 1:01

Alright. So uh this week, and I say this every week, we're doing something a little different, but I I mean I sure hope so.

SPEAKER_01 1:08

I hope we're doing the same thing every week.

SPEAKER_02 1:09

We I'm telling you, we make this joke every time. I should. All right.

SPEAKER_01 1:14

Um something exactly the same this week, and you guys won't remember. Yes. Joyous definitely won't remember.

SPEAKER_02 1:20

Well, this we're gonna do our first mafia episode.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

Cool. Okay, well, like like Italian mafia, right? Not like we did Whitey Bulger, that's not mafia.

SPEAKER_02 1:31

Oh, you're right. We did do Whitey Bulger. I forgot about that. So this isn't our first. This is our first New York Italian mafia episode. I can't believe I forgot about Whitey Bulger.

SPEAKER_01 1:42

Oh my goodness. I get a gold star. That's the first time I remembered something you didn't.

SPEAKER_02 1:46

I completely forgot we did Whitey Bulger. Wow, I'm blown away. Hold on, hold on. You deserve applause.

SPEAKER_01 1:54

I didn't forget. Thank you. Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_02 2:01

So this week we are doing Charles Lucky Luciano. Familiar with him at all?

SPEAKER_01 2:08

The last name, maybe? I don't know. I don't think so.

SPEAKER_02 2:12

Well, I mean, we're gonna go through his history, so you'll know by the end, but he is a big name in the history of the New York mafia. So probably the biggest.

SPEAKER_01 2:20

All right.

SPEAKER_02 2:21

All right, so Charles Lucky Luciano was born Salvatore Luciana on November 24th, 1897 in Sicily, Italy. Which is crazy.

SPEAKER_01 2:32

Damn. Okay, we're we're back in time.

SPEAKER_02 2:36

Correct. This is one of the founding fathers, so to speak.

SPEAKER_01 2:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:41

Luciano's father, who worked in a sulfur mine, was a very ambitious man, and he eventually moved his family to the U.S. in 1906 when Luciano was only eight. They moved to the borough of Manhattan.

SPEAKER_01 2:55

Yeah, I mean that was that was the time to be moving to the U.S.

SPEAKER_02 2:58

It really, you know what? You're right. 120 years ago, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 3:04

Luciano lived in Yeah, I mean, there is there's a ton of immigration from Italy at the time.

SPEAKER_02 3:09

Yeah, no, and you're right. There were, and and that again creates what we're about to talk about because they all knew each other. There was a system in place, especially in Sicily, that lent itself to what they're about to do.

SPEAKER_01 3:21

So right, and Italy wasn't a unified country back then, too. So, like Sicily being its own thing was a vibe.

SPEAKER_02 3:28

Cool. That I was kind of aware of that, but I don't know much of the history of that. So it's really cool. I forgot.

SPEAKER_01 3:34

Here's your Italy aboo. I'm right here. I know way too much about Italy.

SPEAKER_02 3:38

I was gonna say I remember when you traveled there, that was like what, 10 years ago?

SPEAKER_01 3:42

Oh my gosh. Yeah, it makes me so sad. It was like 10 years ago when I worked there.

SPEAKER_02 3:47

God, that's crazy. I'm old.

SPEAKER_01 3:49

I don't want to talk about it.

SPEAKER_02 3:51

We're so old. All right. So when uh Luciano was 14, he dropped out of school and started a job delivering hats, earning $7 a week.

SPEAKER_01 4:03

Which was decent for the time?

SPEAKER_02 4:06

I guess it's crazy. However, he won $244 in a dice game and decided to quit his job to earn money on the streets.

SPEAKER_01 4:18

Well, you know, classic had get one big hit, but that's a big hit if he's making seven bucks a week.

SPEAKER_02 4:24

That's true. And I'm sure the math is in there somewhere. It's like 30 something weeks of pay in one dice game. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:33

As a teenager, he started his own gang and became a member of what was called the Five Points gang. Now, unlike other street gangs whose business was petty crime, Luciano was offering protection to young Jewish kids from Italian and Irish gangs for a whole 10 cents a week.

SPEAKER_01 4:55

That is an enterprising young businessman.

SPEAKER_02 4:58

It's interesting. I love the idea of some Italian kid walking you home to make sure other kids don't fuck with you for a dime a week.

SPEAKER_01 5:07

Yeah, it's like an insurance policy.

SPEAKER_02 5:10

I mean, I get clearly Luciano's a fighter. That's the way I look at it.

SPEAKER_01 5:15

Yep. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 5:16

So at this point, Luciano met a man or boy by the name of Meyer Lansky, and this is when they're teenagers, and he met because at one point Luciano attempted to extort money out of Lansky, you know, for his whole walk-home protection racket. And Lansky was really defiant, basically kind of telling him to go fuck himself, and it turned into a lifelong friendship and partnership. Which is crazy.

SPEAKER_01 5:43

Oh boys.

SPEAKER_02 5:44

You know, it's funny how that works, right?

SPEAKER_01 5:47

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 5:48

So on January 17th, 1920, the 18th Amendment of the United States Constitution took effect, and prohibition was enforced for the next 13 years.

SPEAKER_01 5:59

That was a big business for our buddies and the mafia. We know that.

SPEAKER_02 6:03

Yes, it was. For those who don't know, prohibition made the manufacture sale and transportation of alcoholic beverages illegal. But of course, the demand for alcohol doesn't go anywhere, which resulted in black markets, which of course created the mafia and other criminal organizations. Crazy.

SPEAKER_01 6:28

That's what happens when we make things illegal and they just become crime. They just could be a more crime because it supports the system to get that to people anyway.

SPEAKER_02 6:40

Right. People want it, they're gonna get it. And especially something like alcohol, which no one really thought was that bad. I mean, I understand that they made it illegal because men were ruining their lives and the li and the lives of their families, right? I get it. But you can't stop that. It's gonna happen anyway.

SPEAKER_01 7:01

Right. It was a noble cause, and the more I learned about it, the more I was like, oh, I get it. Like, you know, you tried, but prohibition of anything never really works.

SPEAKER_02 7:10

No, uh you you tell someone they can't have it, they want it more.

SPEAKER_01 7:15

Kind of the way it's they're gonna get it. And also making alcohol is not fucking hard.

SPEAKER_02 7:19

Correct. Although moving it can be hard.

SPEAKER_01 7:23

That's true. Making it on accident is way too easy.

SPEAKER_02 7:27

Yes, I'm sure it is.

SPEAKER_01 7:29

I've never tried, so well, I mean, the thing is like you leave juice for too long.

SPEAKER_02 7:35

Oh, yeah, you know what? You're not wrong in that. That's right. I didn't even think of that.

SPEAKER_01 7:40

Yeah, it's like it's really, it's really not that hard.

SPEAKER_02 7:44

Well, in by 1920, Luciano had met many future mafia leaders, including people like Vito Genovese and Frank Costello. Now, put those names in your back pocket. They're gonna come up later.

SPEAKER_01 7:59

I think I might have heard those ones before. That sounds familiar.

SPEAKER_02 8:02

Um, well, Genovese is the name to this day of one of the five families of New York.

SPEAKER_01 8:09

Ah, maybe that's why.

SPEAKER_02 8:10

Yeah, Costello, he was a famous leader, and his death was a highly public one.

SPEAKER_01 8:19

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_02 8:20

So Luciano had begun his career as a hitman for the New York Mafia boss, Joe the boss Massaria. Now, Massaria was leading the largest of the Italian gangs in the city at the time. But in 1925, another boss came into town named Salvatore Maronzano, and he was eager to take control of Massaria's territory. As the tensions mounted between these two leaders, the killings began, and we're talking like gunning people down in the streets kind of shit.

SPEAKER_01 8:54

That's that's some mafia shit.

SPEAKER_02 8:57

It's the stuff that like those old movies are based off of where they would drive by in the cars with the Tommy guns, like that kind of shit.

SPEAKER_00 9:03

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 9:05

So the underworld called this time period the Castilla Marise War. But for but for Luciano, this was the opportun opportunity he was kind of waiting for. Now, he was always against the bloodbath and the arguing and the gunfights because that was all bad for business. It attracted too much police attention. But Luciano also despised the old ways that his boss did things. And he wanted to bid build bridges with Jewish people and other Irish gangs. And his because his boss was fiercely opposed to any non-Italian partnerships.

SPEAKER_01 9:45

It's like that's just it is, it's just bad for business.

SPEAKER_02 9:48

Yeah, you can't I I you know, I I I don't know what it's like to hate a group of people so much. I don't want to do business with them. I don't know what that's like. Yes, but it happens too much even to this day.

SPEAKER_01 10:02

It's true, man. I'm like, I don't money's always green.

SPEAKER_02 10:07

Right. Although, what's the phrase? Some people's money is greener than others, I've heard. And that particular phrase comes from the idea that not everyone will take your money based on where you stand.

SPEAKER_01 10:22

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_02 10:24

You know what I mean? So, like, for example, if I made a donation to like we'll just say the the Republicans or the Democrats, if I make a donation to them, but I say it's like from I don't know, equal rights for child molesters or something, they won't take my money. You know what I mean? Or they shouldn't.

SPEAKER_01 10:40

Or I don't return it to you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:42

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 10:44

Theoretically.

SPEAKER_02 10:46

It's tough to say right now.

SPEAKER_01 10:50

Legit. Oh, I hate it.

SPEAKER_02 10:52

This world, I'm I just feel like I'm in the upside down, whatever, whatever term bizarro world, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:59

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 11:01

Okay. So Luciano felt that this was now a different generation. And after 18 months of fighting between these two gangs with no end in sight, he reached out to the opposing boss, the po opposing gang leader, Maranzano, and told him that he would eliminate Maseria, his own boss, as long as Marenzano wouldn't take any revenge going forward. So yeah, so they went for it. Now, the interesting thing is Luciano said that he would kill Maseria, and if he could, without argument from Maronzano, take over that gang and be equal in power to Maronzano. He wanted them to be equals and Maronzano accepted the deal.

SPEAKER_01 11:50

Yeah, I'm sure he accepted it at first.

SPEAKER_02 11:53

Well, Luciano invited Maseria to a lunchtime meeting at one of his favorite restaurants on in Coney Island, New York. And while they were sitting there playing cards, Luciano's hitmen were outside waiting for his signal. Once Luciano gave the signal, he got up and excused himself to the bathroom, at which point gunmen entered the restaurant and shot Maseria to death. And with that one act, this entire gang war was over. Maronzano then called hundreds of gang members from across the country to a meeting in the Bronx to announce his victory.

SPEAKER_01 12:34

Yeah, we've uh seen that before.

SPEAKER_02 12:37

Yes, we have. So at this point, Marinzano and Luciano basically lay out their plans for the for the organized crime in New York. And they basically said that the gangs of New York would be organized into five families to control the different boroughs, which is basically Bronx, Brooklyn, Manhattan, Queens, and Staten Island. Each family would be headed by a boss with an underboss, and then beyond that there would be lieutenants and soldiers underneath them. But Marinzano said that at that point all of them would answer only to him.

SPEAKER_01 13:15

Kinda wasn't the deal, was it?

SPEAKER_02 13:16

Nope. And if anyone disagreed with it, they would be killed. Because Maronzano wanted to be the boss of all bosses.

SPEAKER_01 13:24

And they're kind of like setting up a corporation here. Like I'm looking at this org chart.

SPEAKER_02 13:31

Yeah, it's a pyramid scheme, right?

SPEAKER_01 13:34

Yeah, or just like, you know, it's it's cat it's giving capitalism.

SPEAKER_02 13:39

Which which is so funny because I in my research for this, I literally there was a guy who said that yes, the mafia at this point based it off of the system of capitalism.

SPEAKER_01 13:49

Yeah, I mean, it sounds exactly like any corporation I've ever worked for.

SPEAKER_02 13:52

Precisely. And it's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 13:54

Separate it into your diff divisions and then put one idiot in charge and then put a sub-idiot in charge. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:00

Yeah, that's exactly what they're doing. But the uh concept was to insulate the people at the top from the crimes at the bottom.

SPEAKER_01 14:08

Which is exactly just like you know, insulate the crimes at the top of a corporation from the people who are actually doing all the work. Correct. Beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 14:17

Yep. I mean, that's exactly it. So Mironzano's little speech where he made himself the boss of bosses pissed Luciano off. And he was determined to strike back.

SPEAKER_01 14:32

Yarp, duh.

SPEAKER_02 14:34

Right. Now Mironzano's not an idiot, and he recognized that Luciano is a threat. So he contacted a notorious Irish killer named Vincent Cole to get rid of Luciano.

SPEAKER_01 14:48

Great. Oh, you just gave hit you your whole empire. Now you're gonna kill him.

SPEAKER_02 14:52

Right. Well, Cole was a hitman for hire, and he thought that would be perfect for this job. But Luciano had learned about those details. He basically knew that Marinzano was gonna call him to his office for a business meeting one day, and that this Irish guy would be there waiting to kill him.

SPEAKER_01 15:13

Come on.

SPEAKER_02 15:14

It's so funny. So Luciano at this point, he knows he's gonna do something, right? Kill or be killed kind of thing. But he was trying to figure out how he could get at Maronzano because he was well protected. He was never without bodyguards. He even traveled in a supposed bulletproof car. Which for the times is impressive.

SPEAKER_01 15:37

Yeah, that's true. Right. There even was a bulletproof car.

SPEAKER_02 15:40

I'm guessing it's a really heavy door with like thick layers of steel or something.

SPEAKER_01 15:46

Right. And I mean, probably the bullets weren't as fast back then, question mark? I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 15:53

It's possible. I mean, yeah, like to get through steel, probably not, yeah. One thing that Luciano did realize, though, was that Marinzano's offices had tax agents and accountants constantly coming and going. And he saw that as his way in. So on the day that Luciano was basically called and said, Hey, you gotta come to this meeting with Marinzano, he sent his hitmen posing as tax men before he arrived. And as an extra touch, just to kind of fucking piss off Maronzano, the people Luciano sent in were Jewish. He taps Meyer Lansky to arrange the hit. So it's said that Lansky then rented a house in the Bronx for these killers to sit and prepare for this hit while they waited. And that during that time where they were waiting, they were forbidden to leave that house. But while they're there, they were provided with provisions that included women.

SPEAKER_01 17:00

Well, you know, that's how you keep your employees happy.

SPEAKER_02 17:04

Now, keep in mind Luciano is going to become known for prostitution. Like he he that's part of his rackets.

SPEAKER_01 17:13

Ugh, yeah, I don't I don't love that.

SPEAKER_02 17:16

No, I don't either, but it's unfortunately the way of the criminal world.

SPEAKER_01 17:21

Right. Unfortunately, just another thing that would be better if it wasn't illegal.

SPEAKER_02 17:26

Agreed.

SPEAKER_01 17:31

If there were work protections for people doing sex work instead of them being controlled by awful criminals who will probably murder them if they go out of line.

SPEAKER_02 17:40

Yeah, I agree with you. That the tough part with that is that unfortunately the men who are gonna the people in charge are gonna keep themselves in charge by any means necessary, which unfortunately falls into violence and coercion.

SPEAKER_01 17:54

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 17:55

So it would have to be not only heavily regulated to be legal. I don't know how they do it in Nevada, but even within that, there are still people who in Vegas, like you hear about it all the time, that are still held under the thumb of other people. So I think that would always be there.

SPEAKER_01 18:13

Yeah, and I mean the same thing is true for weed, right? It's legal, but you can still still street weed and there's dispensary weed, and the street weed is like a little bit cheaper, so some people still buy that.

SPEAKER_02 18:26

Right. Anyway, totally forgot where I was.

SPEAKER_01 18:30

Yeah, anyways, where were we? Uh we were we were at providing women to my hitmen.

SPEAKER_02 18:35

Correct, that's right. So when that call finally came through, and Maranzano told Luciano to come to his office to discuss urgent business, instead, these four Jewish hitmen walked into his offices above Grand Central Station in New York. And as soon as they entered, they drew knives as weapon, as weapons, chosen because they were silent, but Maronzano would not go down without a fight.

SPEAKER_01 19:03

You're gonna have to have a knife fight, it's not a gun.

SPEAKER_02 19:05

Right. He took multiple stab wounds to the body and a slash to his throat, but he was still alive. Wow. So the killers were forced to take him out the noisy way. Oh yeah, they had to do it. But with the death of Maranzano, finally Luciano could realize his vision, and he was able to reach out to all of organized crime across the country and set up what he always wanted. And this includes Chicago as well as Al Capone.

SPEAKER_01 19:39

Damn.

SPEAKER_02 19:40

Right, it's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_01 19:41

That's quite a network. He's really just he's really just trying to do mergers and acquisitions.

SPEAKER_02 19:47

I mean, he's smart about it, you know? It's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 19:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:52

So basically, Luciano taps Meyer Lansky to become essentially his right-hand man and chief business executive, to put it bluntly. So for Luciano, Lansky is the most important friendship and partnership he would have. And critically, it's because Lansky do these complex calculations in his head without committing anything to paper. So there's no evidence trail.

SPEAKER_01 20:23

Interesting.

SPEAKER_02 20:24

So these two are basically incredibly talented, they're open-minded individuals who realize that once they all join forces and using the American corporation as a model, they're able to eliminate the possibility of an individual monopolizing profits, and they could all share in these profits and distribute them evenly, bringing stability.

SPEAKER_01 20:48

Well, that's not quite following the model of the American corporation.

SPEAKER_02 20:52

No, but by doing so, they create a stability to organized crime that had never existed before. Which is makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 21:01

Let's see what they're doing.

SPEAKER_02 21:02

Yeah. So it's in a way, it's almost like uh Star Wars, the Sith, the rule of two. Because the Sith, the problem with the villains was that they were always plotting against each other. So by only having two, one an apprentice and one a master to teach the apprentice, you they never had too many people coming at them from all sides.

SPEAKER_01 21:23

Right. When they really should have just unionized, I mean they're pretty dumb about that.

SPEAKER_02 21:27

Right.

SPEAKER_01 21:29

The Empire never considers unions, but that's also because the Empire is a you know metaphor for fascism. But anyway.

SPEAKER_02 21:36

True, but by then Palpatine didn't care. But anyway. So there was also one other Jewish gangster that Luciano would bring in to kind of work with, and this was a man by the name of Arnold Rothstein. And he was known as kind of like this big brain for like bankrolling and fixing. He was also a Famously rich New York businessman. Rothstein was doing things that no one else was doing at the time. And Luciano saw the possibilities that Rothstein could bring with him. Famously.

SPEAKER_01 22:14

It's just thinking that this man wants to get involved with a mafia when he is already a rich businessman, but I guess there's no such thing as enough.

SPEAKER_02 22:21

Exactly. Enough is never enough.

SPEAKER_01 22:31

Oh shit, I heard about that.

SPEAKER_02 22:32

Yes. That's the guy that Luciano is teaming up with.

unknown 22:37

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 22:38

He liked the idea that you could take something as basic as baseball and turn it around into something corrupt where you could make a huge amount of money.

SPEAKER_01 22:50

Oh man, he would fit right in today.

SPEAKER_02 22:53

Oh god, I don't even want to know what this guy like him would do today.

SPEAKER_01 22:58

Well, he would have he would have started all of these like crazy betting websites of the Calci and the like poly market and whatever. He would have been in charge of that.

SPEAKER_02 23:08

Right. That's true. You know what? You're right. There are people like him out there today.

SPEAKER_01 23:13

Right. Except now it's almost like legal to do all this shit.

SPEAKER_02 23:16

So you know, you're right. Because what 10 years ago sports betting was mostly illegal, and now you can do it on your phone.

SPEAKER_01 23:24

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 23:25

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 23:26

Now you can bet on things that like you just absolutely shouldn't be betting on. What a world. Me talking early about it would be so much better if it's all legal and regulated. But I guess now it's legal but unregulated, and that's the problem.

SPEAKER_02 23:40

Yeah. Yes, it is. It's so fucked. We're just screwed. That's what it comes down to.

SPEAKER_01 23:45

Yeah, we are. I hate everything.

SPEAKER_02 23:47

So with these guys working together, they realized that they could make a lot more money by doing things differently. There's no reason to go out and mug someone on the street because they were smart enough now to be doing things that would make millions instead of thousands of dollars.

SPEAKER_01 24:04

Right, like the couple hundred bucks in someone's wallet at most. That's not really a sustainable value stream in your business.

SPEAKER_02 24:13

Exactly. And as they worked together, they proved to be quick learners as things kept coming up and they adjusted, and they were soon very rich. And they realized that wealth translates into power, and that translates into political power. And they realized that they could buy political protection. You can see where this is going. They basically had their hand in everything because essentially, as they're going and they're paying off police, no one's looking at them. No one's investigating them. And strangely, in for a little bit, even J. Edgar Hoover, who was the boss of the FBI at the time, wasn't really looking at them at first.

SPEAKER_01 24:58

Damn.

SPEAKER_02 24:59

So the FBI at the time was the only national law enforcement agency that could really combat the mafia. They were looking at bank robbers and kidnappers and killers who were terrorizing the Midwest. Like, I don't know, Bonnie and Clyde.

SPEAKER_01 25:19

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 25:20

But they weren't looking at the mafia.

unknown 25:22

Right.

SPEAKER_01 25:22

And it would be much better use of resources to look at a huge criminal organization. But also all these things deserve resources, of course.

SPEAKER_02 25:30

Right. But at this point, many people didn't even know the mafia really existed the way it did. Which is crazy. Well, I don't know how much I'll go into it, but a big part of that is a term called omerta, which was part of their rules, and that basically means it's like their code of silence. They're not allowed to acknowledge its existence. Period. Gotcha. And back in these early days, people lived up to that. That would change later with the enforcement of stricter laws, like punishments for breaking certain laws.

SPEAKER_01 26:04

Yeah. Secrets could only be secrets for so long.

SPEAKER_02 26:07

Yeah, eventually someone's gonna be like, I don't want to go down, I don't want to go to jail for the rest of my life. Here's everything I know.

SPEAKER_01 26:13

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 26:14

Yeah, exactly. So Hoover essentially denied that there was a national crime syndicate. He said these were just local gangsters, and that was a job for local police.

SPEAKER_01 26:27

Truly.

SPEAKER_02 26:28

So realizing that no one was gonna come after him, Luciano was able to expand his vision and developed new ways for the mafia to grow. Now we talked about the 20s and prohibition, but he recognized that that was going to end soon. And if the mafia was going to continue to be successful, he had to figure out what was going to happen next, especially because he needed to keep wars from breaking out between the gangs.

SPEAKER_01 26:53

Right, and that's what happens as soon as the money runs out.

SPEAKER_02 26:57

So again, we've talked about how we set up the kind of national group, the five families plus Chicago, and I think um St. Louis might have been another one, as well as Las Vegas. So they're all part of this committee. And basically these bosses, they're putting rules in place so that people can't just go to war. Good. Well, for the most part. In his lifetime, he won't see too much of it, but it does get worse after his death.

SPEAKER_01 27:25

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_02 27:27

Alright, so Luciano then revealed his most striking innovation without precedent previously. Because at this point you have the Sicilian mafia, but as people are coming in, you have American gangsters that weren't born in Sicily that are be you know becoming part of this. And I mentioned that he puts together this sort of commission, this council, and he's basically like a board of directors. And at this point, any changes that they want to do, anything that they any member of the mafia or boss wants to do has to be approved by this commission. So if there are territory business, yeah. Yeah. If there are territory disputes, fights over money, whatever it is, they have to bring it to this commission.

SPEAKER_01 28:15

And it's they're like just creating like the justice system, but separately for themselves.

SPEAKER_02 28:21

I was thinking the United Nations, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:24

Yes, yes, much like the United Nations, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:27

But of course, the big thing for Luciano was that there was never supposed to be a boss of bosses, that every person at this table had an equal vote. So it literally is democracy within the criminal world.

SPEAKER_01 28:41

Wild. Now, was he one of these bosses with equal power, or he was still in charge?

SPEAKER_02 28:46

No, he's one of many bosses. Wow. Yeah, he's the boss of one of the five New York families. So literally, he's saying, I don't want to be the boss of bosses. It has to be a commission. Wow. It is so fucking weird.

SPEAKER_01 29:02

It's wild. I mean, it is that's it, that's how you create stability. It's terrifying when a criminal organization has that much stability. It's almost like really scary that they figured that out. You like to think that, like, you know, everything is like the Sopranos and it's a hot fucking mess and everyone's like shooting each other, but nope.

SPEAKER_02 29:21

They did it on purpose.

SPEAKER_01 29:23

They're so competent, it's frightening.

SPEAKER_02 29:25

So this commission basically became like a second secret government within this country. They were in control of so many different industries, and most people weren't even aware of it. So you had, you know, you had the restaurant business, you had gambling, you know, Las Vegas, for example, right? But they also controlled, especially in New York, the garment industry, the meat industry, the fish markets. They controlled the docks, they got in bed with unions. They were in control of loan sharking, drugs, and prostitution.

SPEAKER_01 29:58

That's a lot.

SPEAKER_02 30:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:00

This is like a mega corporation.

SPEAKER_02 30:03

And Luciano was he was going to turn prostitution. This is what he wanted to do. He wanted to turn prostitution into an industry like a supermarket chain. He literally keep in mind what the fuck. Keep in mind at this point, the five families in New York in particular are making billions of dollars a year, and we're talking the 1930s.

SPEAKER_01 30:28

That's nuts.

SPEAKER_02 30:32

So Luciano took a suite in one of the most luxurious hotels in the world, and he is checked in under the name of Charles Ross to protect himself from rival gangsters, just in case. He's reaping in millions every week. So he's dressing the part. He's a sharp dresser, and all the he's always got some hottie on his arm. He's flying around in private planes. He goes to the racetracks. He's basically a bachelor and kind of a party animal.

SPEAKER_01 31:06

Wild, what a guy.

SPEAKER_02 31:08

I mean, he's literally like hanging out, and this is specific. He's hanging out with Frank Sinatra and others like him.

SPEAKER_01 31:17

A lister.

SPEAKER_02 31:18

Right? I mean, it's that's how it was back then. Because they thought he was a legitimate businessman.

SPEAKER_01 31:24

Right.

SPEAKER_02 31:25

Probably. Some people might have known. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 31:29

Yeah, I mean, but a lot of real legitimate businesses are sketchy as fuck and doing bad things.

SPEAKER_02 31:35

So there's not much difference.

SPEAKER_01 31:38

It's hard to hold them all up to the light.

SPEAKER_02 31:41

It really is. However, the way Luciano is suddenly living catches the attention of FBI agents. And now they're looking and trying to figure out what's going on, and they're seeing that he's a key player in some of this underworld shit, but they're blown away by how little information there was on him. So they're starting to figure it out.

SPEAKER_01 32:04

Right, but them them knowing something and them doing something about it are very far apart.

SPEAKER_02 32:10

Right. Well, this is where they start to figure out that they're recognizing that local police have arrested him a number of times, but never bothered to follow up on it. They're letting him go. They're getting paid off. So there is a man, and his name is Thomas Dewey. This is the guy that's like, you know what? I'm gonna clean up the streets of New York. I'm gonna get rid of all the gangsters. And Dewey is fiercely ambitious. By the age of 33, he's basically got the top job as New York City special prosecutor and decides to crack down on organized crime.

SPEAKER_01 32:47

That's very impressive.

SPEAKER_02 32:48

They're realizing that in the 1930s, Luciano was the face of organized crime, and it was a big open secret that he was that big and that important. And now finally Dewey was going after him. He went out, he realized that Luciano was making vast sums of money for time. Finally, right? Now, he comes out and basically tells people that this crime syndicate actually exists. And he starts breaking down how he thinks it works. But the problem is nobody's buying it.

SPEAKER_01 33:25

They keep right, they're like, how could something this big be going on and we don't know about it? What are you talking about?

SPEAKER_02 33:30

Well, they're convinced that inherently criminals are greedy and self-centered, so none of them would follow these rules. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:39

That's how your prejudice is gonna stop ya.

SPEAKER_02 33:42

Well, and Dewey at this point, as he's trying to get all this information, he's actually having a tough time finding any evidence against Luciano that he could actually hold him accountable for. Because Luciano at this point is super careful. He's weary of wiretaps, he doesn't have too many phone conversations, and like Meyer Lansky, doesn't keep anything written on paper. Everything is in his head.

SPEAKER_01 34:07

Crazy the amount of storage he's got in his brain to be keeping all that, but it's very impressive.

SPEAKER_02 34:13

I'm you know what? I I don't know how he does it because I don't I mean, don't get me wrong, I have this extensive knowledge of Star Wars, but that's a passion, so I guess money and bookkeeping, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 34:26

That's his passion, man. That's his special interest.

SPEAKER_02 34:29

Well, then out of complete nowhere, Dewey was offered a lead that he thought could ensnare Luciano into his web of whatever. He's setting him up, right? A series of police wiretaps and a brothel uncovered clues that his organization controlled 300 establishments in Manhattan and Brooklyn.

SPEAKER_01 34:53

That's a lot.

SPEAKER_02 34:54

That's crazy. Um I know New York is huge, but 302 of the boroughs that's fucking nuts. They just nuts. It's crazy. They discovered that a top enforcer for Luciano was overseeing the combined operations. So in January of 1936, investigators raided 80 of those brothels and arrested over 100 sex workers and the madams that oversaw the houses.

SPEAKER_01 35:25

Damn. Well, I mean, they're they're approaching the right people to arrest, but not really.

SPEAKER_02 35:31

Yeah. In a way, like I've and I don't know if we've said this before, but I don't think the sex workers in these situations are the ones committing any real crimes.

SPEAKER_01 35:41

No, absolutely not. But I also don't know if the rest, like if the organization is there.

SPEAKER_02 35:46

Right.

SPEAKER_01 35:46

So they just like own it and collect money from it.

SPEAKER_02 35:49

Well, these arrested women were left between a rock and a hard place because they had nowhere to go. And the cops started putting these women under real pressure to start revealing information about Luciano. Many of them were addicted to heroin. So when they were arrested, cops purposefully waited until the fourth day of them being cold turkey before can asking them questions, when they were basically crazy enough to agree to testify against the mob.

SPEAKER_01 36:29

Oof, yeah, that probably wouldn't stand up today, but that's what they had to do.

SPEAKER_02 36:33

I mean, definitely not today, because I don't think the word, the testimony of a drug addict would hold much water.

SPEAKER_01 36:41

Right. But then again, what about the testimony of a hundred of them?

SPEAKER_02 36:44

That's true too. So basically, investigators managed to get about three or four people to turn and come against Luciano, basically breaking down that he was at meetings where he discussed his percentage and his family's percentage of money that they were getting from these whorehouses. Their words, not mine.

SPEAKER_01 37:05

Damn.

unknown 37:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:07

Even before the trial commenced, New York newspapers had Luciano list, they were literally throwing it out there that he was going to be convicted. Which is crazy.

SPEAKER_01 37:18

That is nuts, but also like That's the way it was back then. Right?

SPEAKER_02 37:24

Well, the trial began on May 12th, 1935. And in his opening statement, Luciano was not shown not to have placed any of those women in those houses or taken money. That's his what his defense is arguing. That he had just set up apartments for friends of his, and that's how things that it wasn't his fault. It wasn't his design.

SPEAKER_01 37:50

Right. And if he never writes anything down, then it's all just he said she said.

SPEAKER_02 37:55

Exactly. But Dewey, the prosecutor, had 68 witnesses eventually come out. And all of them were promised shorter sentences.

SPEAKER_01 38:05

That's a lot of witnesses, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:06

They were promised shorter sentences, immunity, and probation for aiding the prosecution. Now my thing is, I wonder how many of those were legit.

SPEAKER_01 38:17

Right.

SPEAKER_02 38:19

For example, one of the madams who was hip there had been hit over the head with a lead stick before she agreed to testify. Like they're literally being pushed into this by torture, according to some reports.

SPEAKER_01 38:34

Right, and that's all like coerced testimonies. So how reliable is it? But also, look at what year it is.

SPEAKER_02 38:42

True. And this one is one of the ones that came out and said that Luciano had claimed he wanted to make prostitution like a chain of supermarkets. And this is how that came out. But of course, it's all hearsay. Yeah, like it's all like you said. He said, she said. So everything was going in Luciano's favor for a bit during the trial. And then Luciano made a big mistake against his lawyer's advice. Do you want to take a guess at what he's the mistake he's gonna make?

SPEAKER_01 39:14

Um gosh, I feel like he's done he hasn't made a lot of mistakes so far, so I don't know what his what his critical flaw is, but you know, maybe he gets mad and puts a hit on someone in the jury or something crazy like that.

SPEAKER_02 39:30

No, I I give you credit, that's better than what he did. This guy is so at this point, he's so arrogant, he decided to take the witness stand in his own defense.

SPEAKER_01 39:41

Oh. So he I shouldn't have done that.

SPEAKER_02 39:45

No, it's uh it's a classic mistake made by a lot of um narcissistic criminals. So he's up on the stand, and Dewey's demeanor while interrogating him, interviewing him, basically makes him makes Dewey stand out as brilliant. So he basically gets Luciano to show his underworld side. And as he's talking, people realize that even though he comes off as sophisticated and suave, there's a side of him that's dark and isn't very funny at all. Oh so for four hours, Dewey pummeled him with questions about his life, his connections, his taxes, his association with other gangsters, and he was able to maneuver things to prove that Luciano was lying in answer after answer after answer. Yeah. Dewey's onslaught reduced Luciano to a prospiring, squirming wreck. Which is crazy. And at the very least, he was revealed to be a tax evader.

SPEAKER_01 40:54

This guy's good.

SPEAKER_02 40:54

He's he is good, and Luciano made a huge mistake thinking he could get on that stand. In the end, the jury even described his testimony as shocking, disgusting, and a display of sanctimonious perjury.

SPEAKER_01 41:13

That ain't good.

SPEAKER_02 41:14

No. Luciano was convicted on 62 counts of compulsory prostitution and sentenced to 30 to 50 years.

SPEAKER_01 41:24

Well, that's a lot. Good luck with that, buddy.

SPEAKER_02 41:27

I wish they would do that today.

SPEAKER_01 41:30

They never freaking do.

SPEAKER_02 41:32

No, I mean, seriously. Right now we can't even get a list of the fucking known pedophiles out there.

SPEAKER_01 41:39

Yup. And it's like, these are the these are the rich elites. This guy was a rich elite, and we were able to put him away.

SPEAKER_02 41:46

That's what I'm saying. What happened to you know, I don't want to spend too much time, but where's our outrage today? You know?

SPEAKER_01 41:54

Right.

SPEAKER_02 41:54

Well, after this, Dewey was a crime busting hero, and he starts this meteoric career. He would become governor of New York in 1942 and twice ran for president.

SPEAKER_01 42:07

Damn.

SPEAKER_02 42:08

It's crazy. He doesn't get it, obviously. We don't have a president doing it.

SPEAKER_01 42:11

Right. And I'm also like, you know, keep him doing what he's doing. He doesn't need to be president.

SPEAKER_02 42:16

Agreed. Agreed. So Luciano.

SPEAKER_01 42:19

You don't need to keep advancing if you're doing amazing what you do. Just keep doing what you're doing.

SPEAKER_02 42:23

But you know what, in a weird way, nobody's generally happy where they are. Or I should say not enough people. Not enough people are happy where they are. Yeah. So Luciano did try to fight back and he appealed against his sentence. And he ordered for the prostitutes who testified against him to be round up so that they could say they had lied in court. He's literally trying to get his people to bring these women back to repeal their testimony.

SPEAKER_01 42:52

Right, because that'll toll everyone will buy that.

SPEAKER_02 42:55

Right. Yeah, no one's gonna believe that. So unfortunately for Luciano, his appeal failed, and he was sent to a maximum security penitentiary up near the Canadian border, which everyone had just nicknamed Siberia. But they thought that that was it. With him gone, this whole organized crime thing would fall apart. But his foresight in setting up the commission now demonstrated just how intelligent that was. Because although he remained, yeah, just one guy making decisions. So with him behind bars, Frank Costello stepped up to be the boss of his family. He was highly regarded and well known in New York's underworld. And he took over the day to day running. He continued to bring in millions of dollars and increase the family's fortunes. Which is crazy.

SPEAKER_01 43:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:52

It's like a corporation. Like it makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 43:54

Which is why you're truly replaceable.

SPEAKER_02 43:57

Right, which is why the mafia. Even though they're they're not the same power level, they're still around to this day. Wild. Crazy. Well, as America entered the Second World War in 1942, Luciano found that the U.S. needed him.

SPEAKER_01 44:16

Is that so?

SPEAKER_02 44:17

So the war in the Atlantic was going badly for the Allies. And the U.S. government was concerned about the docks in New York along the East Coast, and that they were open to potential threats, especially on the East Coast, where a sh a French ship in Normandy had caught fire and sank, which basically sparked a huge fire, and they were they lost a ton of money and a ton of workmen. So this is so funny. Basically, Luciano reaches out and says, Hey, we can help you. We basically have people all along the docks. We will keep them out there watching and basically being a guard for the US Navy because our people are already there working anyway.

SPEAKER_01 45:10

Wild.

SPEAKER_02 45:13

It's fucking crazy.

SPEAKER_01 45:15

He's like, I know what you need. I have a service offering for you, U.S. government.

SPEAKER_02 45:20

That's so funny. Now, what I love is that literally the US government couldn't have organized a better watchdog than the mafia did.

SPEAKER_01 45:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:36

Unfortunately, it doesn't really help Luciano at all.

SPEAKER_01 45:38

That is funny.

SPEAKER_02 45:39

Yeah, he doesn't get out of prison early for it or anything like that, right? It sucks, but right.

SPEAKER_01 45:46

Well, he probably got some his family got some money out of it.

SPEAKER_02 45:48

Right. And and they certainly helped keep some more pressure off their backs for a little while. You know what I mean? However, Luciano did ask for a pardon. And that obviously didn't really go his way. But they would eventually decide after he served 10 of years of his 50 year sentence, they decided to deport him back to Sicily.

SPEAKER_01 46:17

But within So we can run it from there.

SPEAKER_02 46:20

Well, they don't think they were thinking that was possible. But what makes it worse.

SPEAKER_01 46:25

Right, I guess is Right.

SPEAKER_02 46:26

Well, within months of him going to Sicily, he had already traveled to Cuba and was back to organizing the businesses.

SPEAKER_01 46:35

Right. It's like stupid.

SPEAKER_02 46:39

Right. And the funny part is while in Cuba, Luciano, Meyer Lansky, and Frank Costello, and other high-ranking mafia members discussed opening up the heroin trade to the U.S. So we have him to thank for that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:00

Great. Heroin was in his early release to thank for that, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_02 47:05

Yeah, probably. Heroin, unfortunately, was becoming a big moneymaker for the mafia. And in 1957, in Sicily, Luciano was reported to be overseeing more than 30 civilian and American mafia leaders to create the world's largest heroin exporting rackets.

SPEAKER_01 47:26

Great.

SPEAKER_02 47:28

I mean, there's a reason we're talking about him on a true crime podcast, right?

SPEAKER_01 47:33

Yep. Yep. Because of just imagine how many lives that he that were lost because of him doing this.

SPEAKER_02 47:41

We really only talked about a couple of murders for him at the beginning of his career, but I'm sure he was responsible for more.

SPEAKER_01 47:48

Oh, for sure. And just everyone who died of heroin addiction.

SPEAKER_02 47:52

Five years later in 1962, Luciano was targeted for arrests from an alleged member of a ring that smuggled $50 million worth of heroin into the US.

SPEAKER_01 48:04

Damn.

SPEAKER_02 48:05

But before authorities could get to him, Luciano died of a heart attack in Italy at the age of 65.

SPEAKER_01 48:14

Well, get fucked.

SPEAKER_02 48:17

It's a good way to go for a gangster.

SPEAKER_01 48:20

I guess so. But I'm just like, I'm glad he didn't get to live out his old age.

SPEAKER_02 48:25

Yeah, 65 isn't that old.

SPEAKER_01 48:27

But I mean that's not.

SPEAKER_02 48:29

He's you know, despite all the bad he did in the world, the guy was a genius. He really was.

SPEAKER_01 48:35

We can definitely say that. He he figured out organized crime.

SPEAKER_02 48:40

Yeah, in a way that it's like we said, it's still effective, at least to a degree, to this day.

SPEAKER_01 48:46

100%. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:48

And it's funny because as much as I think we've said it in the past, like the mandatory laws about drug, you know, drug offenses, as high as those punishments are, a lot of those is what po caused those mafia members to completely open up about what the life was like.

SPEAKER_00 49:09

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 49:10

So, in some ways, I guess there's some good in it, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 49:14

I guess.

SPEAKER_02 49:15

The worst part is do you know who it was that um was responsible for taking down four of the five bosses of the mafia in New York?

SPEAKER_01 49:26

No, I don't.

SPEAKER_02 49:27

Rudy Giuliani.

SPEAKER_01 49:30

Well, I mean, yeah, broke clocks right twice a day.

SPEAKER_02 49:35

Yeah, he was respectable at one point in time.

SPEAKER_01 49:39

And you'd I'll you know what? Uh I it hurts me to say. Thank you. Thank you, Rudy. Thanks for doing that.

SPEAKER_02 49:46

He did he did a good thing in the 90s. He cr he like hobbled the mafia. And yeah, and it was good. And then and after September 11th, 2001, he there was a lot of outpouring for him and his city, and unfortunately, he ran it all into the fucking dirt.

SPEAKER_01 50:05

Right.

SPEAKER_02 50:05

Because today he sounds crazy as fuck.

SPEAKER_01 50:08

Oh, he's fucking nuts, yeah. Absolutely fucking nuts. But and it makes sense now, knowing all this history, like where that notoriety came from, because he did something very important.

SPEAKER_02 50:19

Yeah, and it went to his head, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 50:22

Typical, typical.

SPEAKER_02 50:25

But yeah, so thank you everybody for joining us. Once again, I'm Janice Dead.

SPEAKER_01 50:29

And I'm Joyus Dead.

SPEAKER_02 50:31

And we'll see you next week.

SPEAKER_01 50:32

Bye.