EP 81: Dissociation, Trauma, and Real Healing: Eddie Shin, LMFT on Neurofeedback & Accelerated Resolution Therapy

We talk with therapist Eddie Shin, LMFT about dissociation, trauma, and why a “cope forever” approach can leave people exhausted and stuck. We explore neurofeedback and Accelerated Resolution Therapy as practical tools that build safety in the brain so deeper healing can happen. 

• Eddie’s path into marriage and family therapy through residential treatment work 
• Why coping skills help short term but can feel crushing long term 
• How trust and connection unlock progress with highly traumatized teens 
• Neurofeedback explained as physical therapy for the brain 
• How neurofeedback supports emotional regulation and stability 
• What ART is and how it compares with EMDR 
• Why a directive trauma modality can be safer with dissociation 
• Dissociation on a spectrum from zoning out to severe disorders 
• What dissociative identity disorder actually is and why media portrayals miss 
• Integration defined as internal cooperation rather than erasing parts 
• What helps clients feel hope from the first session 
• How people find specialized help and what readiness looks like 

LINKS

Website: www.healingground-counseling.com/

Instagram: @healingground_counseling

Facebook: Healing Ground Counseling

BIO

Eddie Shin is a licensed marriage and family therapist and founder of Healing Ground Counseling located in Orem, UT. Eddie is passionate about helping people find healing through researched modalities tailored for each individual. His mission is to help people find healing from childhood trauma, trauma of any form, and dissociative disorders, such as dissociative identity disorder (DID). Eddie has worked in private practice for about 4 years and previously worked in a residential treatment center for about 6 years. Eddie graduated with his BA in psychology from Humboldt State University in Arcata, CA and his MS in marriage and family therapy from Capella University, an online university located in Minneapolis, MN. Eddie grew up in Orange County, CA and loves the beach, the redwoods, and the outdoors. Eddie has two wonderful kids and a beautiful wife. 

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Transcript

Dissociation As A Defense Tool

SPEAKER_02 0:00

The average person can dissociate. And a lot of people actually in this day and age do. I mean, scrolling on your phone is a form of dissociation. It's getting yourself out of reality for whatever moment that you're experiencing. And it, I mean, sometimes it's so what dissociation was meant for is it's something that you're it's a defense mechanism your brain has. But sometimes it can provide this escape, which is exactly why it's this defense mechanism is to escape from something that's harmful.

SPEAKER_01 0:35

Welcome to the Upside of Bipolar, where we uncover the true sources of bipolar symptoms and share proven tools for recovery. I'm your host, Michelle Reitinger, number one international best-selling author of the Upside of Bipolar Seven Steps to Heal Your Disorder. In this podcast, I bring you solo insights from my journey and guest interviews with leading researchers and experts. Join us to transform chaos into hope and reclaim your life. Let's heal together. Welcome to the upside of Bipolar. I am your host, Michelle Reitinger, and I have an amazing guest today. Eddie Shin is a licensed marriage and family therapist and founder of Healing Ground Counseling located in Oram, Utah. Eddie is passionate about helping people find healing through researched modalities tailored for each individual. His mission is to help people find healing from childhood trauma, trauma of any form, and dissociative disorders, such as dissociative identity disorder, or DID. Eddie has worked in private practice for about four years and previously worked in a residential treatment center for about six years. Eddie graduated with a BA in psychology from Humboldt State University in Arcata, California, and his MS in marriage and family therapy from Capella University, an online university located in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Eddie grew up in Orange County, California and loves the beach, the redwoods, and the outdoors. Eddie has two wonderful kids and a beautiful wife. I am so excited to have you here, Eddie. Thank you so much for being a guest today.

SPEAKER_02 2:12

Yeah, I'm super excited to be here. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 2:15

And I share your love of, I grew up in California as well, and I love the beach and I love the redwoods. So I we have that in common.

SPEAKER_02 2:23

Yes. Nothing like it.

Eddie’s Therapist Origin Story

SPEAKER_01 2:25

Yeah. Okay. So let's start with your story. Will you share your story with us?

SPEAKER_02 2:30

Yeah. I mean, I guess depending on where you want the story and stuff, I guess growing up, definitely loved, loved learning about people. And that was something that I really enjoyed and found a passion in doing. Was I felt like I was really easy to talk to, really easy to reason, really easy to get along with and stuff. And I loved hearing other people's stories. I loved hearing where people were coming from, what kinds of things were victorious for them, what kinds of things were challenging for them. And it was just a natural passion that I've had throughout my life. And as I started getting into the point of going to college, I started trying to figure out where I wanted to go, what path I wanted to go. Did I want to go the medical route? That was something I was interested in. But then I also was interested in just the whole group of psychology and whatnot, that whole topic. And so I started, I started looking into that and found it fascinating. And then I had a really amazing supervisor at the treatment center that I started working at, which was the first place that I had real experience with mental health and whatnot. And she was just amazing. And she helped me to see that I see what kinds of passion that I actually had for therapy. Like I didn't realize I wanted to become a therapist. I thought I wanted to be a clinical psychologist, do psychological tests and research and things of that nature. But as she started working with me and as she started asking me questions, it helped me to really uncover that I wanted to do more than that. That I wanted to actually have this one-on-one connection with different people and help them to achieve what they feel is impossible. And as she was asking me all sorts of questions, it narrowed down to where I think a lot like a marriage and family therapist, which a lot of people find confusing of what's the difference between marriage and family therapy and social work and clinical mental health counseling and just regular counseling and whatnot, is with marriage and family therapy, I see the person as not just that person, but they have a whole bigger picture of things that are influencing the different struggles that they have in their lives. So I see things from a very systemic type of viewpoint. And that's something she was able to help me uncover. And then she mentored me all throughout all throughout that process of getting into grad school, going through grad school, and even through my internship and afterwards. And so she she was just an amazing mentor that helped me get to where I am today. And yeah, I'm very grateful for where I am because it's a it's a very fulfilling career for sure.

Coping Versus Healing In Therapy

SPEAKER_01 5:27

Yeah. And I I think the thing that made me really want to have you on the podcast was what you do in your treatment. When I was first diagnosed back in 1998, I was told right away, you know, you need to go to therapy. And the focus of therapy for probably over a decade of my treatment was coping. Like, you know, you need to develop skills, you need to develop coping skills because it was there was an underlying assumption that my my quote unquote bipolar disorder diagnosis meant that I had a disease that I didn't have any control over. And so I would have it for the rest of my life and I needed to learn to cope with it. And I didn't like therapy. I hated therapy, in fact, because it didn't feel helpful to me. The things that the therapists were, you know, telling me to do to cope were didn't work. It didn't help me. It it actually felt I actually felt worse after most of my therapy sessions because I would go and talk about the things a lot, which kind of magnified them in my brain, but I wasn't being guided towards any kind of solution or understanding. And so I quit for a long time. Like I I didn't want to do it again. And I there was one kind of a last Hail Mary Pass kind of situation where um I think it was trying to think. I think it was about 10 years ago. And I we were in a really distressing situation as a family, and I was really struggling. And I was had been doing really well for a long time, but the situation was just kind of starting to overwhelm me. And I had a theastical leader of our congregation that recommended therapy, and I was very resistant at first, and he's like, I really think you ought to give it a try. And I found a therapist that had was trained in trauma modalities, and that really shifted. It shifted the way that I looked at therapy. I started seeing it as a tool that I could use to actually identify the underlying sources of my suffering and my distress and start using it more proactively to heal because she was a very proactive therapist. And when you and I talked the first time we met, um, I was really intrigued by what you do in your practice because that's your approach. Your approach is to help give people tools to identify, you know, the underlying sources of the distress and then help them to resolve or integrate, you know. And I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I would love to hear kind of like let's talk about where you started in your therapy, you know, because you worked, I believe it said in for six years you worked in a a treatment, like a treatment facility. Yeah. Sorry, residential treatment. And then and then now you've moved into your own private practice. And I love what you're doing in your private practice. So let's start with where you started in the residential treatment facility. I want to hear about your experience there, and then let's then we'll move into talking about what you do now.

SPEAKER_02 8:12

Yeah, of course. So the treatment center that I worked at, it was I felt like it was a wonderful place. And um, the team that I had of staff members that would help the kids out and help them to just learn daily life skills and whatnot. And to be we were the we were basically the coaches to help coach them through how to work through their difficult emotions, behaviors, tantrums, whatever it may be. Things that basically a parent would do. A lot of them came from households that were pretty broken, really difficult. And so they would come here because their behavioral struggles were so big that sometimes they would get kicked out of schools and no one would know how to how to really work with them. And so getting that connection with them really, really helped. And I saw that, yes, the coping skills worked. Like we got trained on all like a whole slew of coping skills, but then like it worked for that one time, and then it worked the next time, and then the next time, and then sometimes the kids would know it would work and they would just say, Oh, I don't want to do that because I just don't want to do it. And they would just get so mad about it. And sometimes I kind of noticed that they would get frustrated that okay, yes, it'll help me for right now, but like, how is this gonna help long term and stuff? And so I first started off in neurofeedback as they moved me up into learning about doing that and getting clinical experience there. But as I moved into therapy and and everything, that's where I started having this this thought of I want to I want to learn more about how to help people to not just cope with their challenges, but actually find a source of healing, like looking at the root of the problem instead of just looking at the surface. Because everyone can see what what's happening on the surface, not everyone can see what's happening down below. And before I got really involved in some of the more trauma modalities and whatnot, I found that like just that genuine connection with the person is the starting point of getting them to be able to open up. And as I started learning more about these trauma modalities, it started helping these teenagers that I worked with uncover a lot of the traumas that they went through to the point of where they ended up transforming into just different people, which was amazing to see. To where sometimes they on paper they were the more challenging kids and teens that that would come to the facility. But then when other therapists were like, How do you work with them? Like, they're some of the hardest kids, like they make my kids look like the biggest angels in the world and stuff. And it's like, I mean, I have this connection with them, like they know I trust them, they trust me, I respect them, they respect me, and they know that I'm in this for them and with them, and they're not alone in it, and that's where the progress really comes. It's it's not just a job, it's more of no, let's let's connect in this fundamental level so that you can get to your best your Yeah, and coping is exhausting.

SPEAKER_01 11:31

You know, for you know, when somebody's struggling with bipolar symptoms, for example, the longer you experience them, the more the easier it is to start to recognize the pattern and to expect it. And so I I always described it as feeling like I was getting yanked onto a roller coaster and I just had to hold on white knuckling it until it was over. And then I would survey the damage, you know, and and it's trying to apply the coping mechanism. Sometimes you didn't have the emotional capacity to put the energy forth to do it. And, you know, like you were saying with these kids, yes, it would work, but then there would be times when they were starting to resist using those coping mechanisms because they're like, I don't want to do this anymore. I I'm so tired of coping, and I'm so tired of these feelings. And the thing that I think is what I hear what you're talking about that is so interesting. So I'm forgive me, but I want to share this little story that came into my mind. When I was a girl, there was a children's book called Albert's Toothache, and these are it's about turtles. And the turtle keeps going around telling everybody he has a toothache, but turtles don't have teeth, and so nobody would believe him. And he's crying, you know, halfway into the book, he's crying because nobody will believe that he has a toothache. And finally the grandmother comes and she asks him questions and discovered he had an injury, another injury, and he didn't know how to describe it. And and so, you know, everybody up to that point thinks he's a liar, thinks he's trying to get attention, you know, all these things. And he was really in pain and he needed help. And it was somebody who just started asking him questions to try and get to the bottom of it. And I think that that's what you're describing is instead of trying to keep teach them to cope with their distress, you know, it's very easy for us when we see somebody acting in a way that is uncomfortable for us, you know, or that is causing harm to other people, which is understandable, to want to stop them and to shut it down and to focus on how do we get that to stop? How do we get them to stop? How do we teach them to stop doing that instead of, you know, having some curiosity and looking and saying, is there something that's underneath that that is, you know, is this a cry for help? Is this, is this distress that needs to be, you know, looked into? And so I love what you're sharing about you taking the time to get trained in modalities and learn more about trauma and then helping them to uncover their trauma and working with them to actually heal and resolve it rather than just coping with the distress constantly.

SPEAKER_02 13:48

Yeah. Yeah, because it can get exhausting. And sometimes when you're at your lowest low or your like most aggravated state, you're not gonna want to think about, well, let me try to think of five things I'm grateful for, or let me try to deep breathe, or let me try to like name five things that I can see, four things I can hear, and go through those are all wonderful, wonderful things that I still teach people. But I mean, it comes with a time and a place for that. Yeah. Can't expect those to be the one size fits all type of answers.

SPEAKER_01 14:23

Yeah. Well, and and one of the things that I found, because I was the same way. I when when somebody is just teaching you coping mechanisms, but nothing's ever getting better, you start to lose trust in that person because it starts to feel like okay, yes, I can cope right now, but I don't want to keep coping. I don't want to keep coping with this. This doesn't feel good, and I don't want to keep doing this. And but if somebody, if your mindset is, I am healing, but this is part of the process of healing, it feels different. You know, which is what what I discovered and what you know what the people I work with, you know, have learned is we're working through the healing process. Learning how to manage my symptoms while I'm going through the healing process has a purpose and a value, but I'm working towards something different. I'm not gonna stay like this forever. I'm working towards something that feels better and is easier and less distressing.

SPEAKER_02 15:14

Yeah. Yeah. And there yeah, there's a night and day difference when you see that in someone. Yeah.

Neurofeedback For Regulation

SPEAKER_01 15:22

Yeah. So tell me what led you to decide to begin your own practice. You you said you started working on neurofeedback. Can you talk a little bit about that? Because we've never had anybody on the program that works with that.

SPEAKER_02 15:34

Yeah, so it's interesting. I started working at the treatment center in 2016, and then at around 2018 or so, um, so I was a staff member during that time from 2016 to 2018. Um, that supervisor that I that I told you about earlier, um, the one who mentored me through this whole process, she actually approached me and she was she was saying, Hey, you received your bachelor's in psychology. You're looking to go on to further education, from what I know. And I wanted to, I wanted to bring this bring this idea up to you, this opportunity that you can receive. And she started talking about neurofeedback, and it was a very interesting, interesting uh type of modality that I've never heard of. And she said, Yeah, like we could send you to training, you would work under my license and everything, because a bachelor's level clinician is able to work under a master's level clinician. So I was able to do the neurofeedback and she was able to analyze everything and to be able to provide any reports that were needed to the clients and also to their families and whatnot. So it was it was a really interesting opportunity that that I received. And I was able to work in neurofeedback from 2018 till about well, I've never stopped neurofeedback, but like officially as a neurofeedback clinician, I was there from 2018 to 2021, and then um at the beginning of 2022, that's when I started therapy. And so, yeah, they sent me off to get training in California where where this group of neurofeedback clinicians who started their own version of neurofeedback that really helps focus on helping people to work through their trauma, work through and heal um different kinds of different kinds of symptoms that they're experiencing related to the trauma. I was able to learn a lot from that. And I saw how effective it was in the treatment center when I would work with these really highly traumatized kids and teens, and it was just incredible to see how quickly it could help them to start to start getting more involved in therapy because at that point they were very far gone, shut down. I've been in therapy my whole life, nothing's gonna work. They've just helped me to cope with different things, and that's not working. I don't want to talk about things that I don't want to talk about, and understandably so. I mean, the stuff they went through was rough, but this was able to help their brain to get stronger in certain areas and more stable and more regulated to the point of where they were able to manage their anger, manage their stress level, manage their anxiety to the point of being able to bring up some really difficult and vulnerable topics, which sometimes they'd bring it up to me and I'd say, Hey, let's talk about this with your therapist who is actually licensed to help you with this. Like they can they can work through this. They have the tools, they have all the different all the different things that that they've been trained to do. And it was amazing to see that connection that that started getting made to where it was just uh I feel like it was a life-changing type of type of thing for a lot of those kids.

SPEAKER_01 19:08

Yeah, can you describe what neurofeedback is? Like explain what that is to our audience.

SPEAKER_02 19:13

Yeah, so I I describe it to to my clients all the time as as basically it's physical therapy for your brain. Except the difference is when you go to physical therapy, you have to have an injury, you have to have a problem. With neurofeedback, anyone can do it, and it's just helping their brain to get a little bit stronger by receiving real-time feedback of what the brain is doing and how it's regulating. Because all of our brains can regulate more effectively and more healthily than they currently do, and so it provides a form of feedback on a video screen, whether they're playing a video game that's pre-programmed or they're watching a YouTube video or a movie. The feedback comes in different ways. So their brain sends, so the machine itself receives feet receives the brain waves that the measurements of what the brain waves are doing. And then the feedback gets put on the screen based on what the frequency of the machine is going at, kind of like a treadmill, if you were to think of it in that way. It's going at a very consistent frequency. And anytime their brain wave crosses over that frequency, so for instance, with the movie, the screen will grow to be full size. And whenever it goes over that frequency or below that frequency, the screen shrinks really small and it flickers and the audio changes. And that's just telling the brain, hey, I want to get to that frequency. That frequency felt really good for me. And so as it starts getting to that frequency, the screen will grow slowly and it'll get to that full size again. And the audio will be clear, the picture will be clear, and their brain just trains itself on how to how to get it to that to that frequency level so that it can basically have the reward of having a really nice, clear, big picture of the movie. And same thing for the game.

SPEAKER_01 21:17

And is it helping is it helping with emotional regulation? What is the purpose of this?

SPEAKER_02 21:24

Yeah, so our brains are super complex. And so there's different areas of our brains that are that are in charge of a lot of different things. Some parts are in charge of more emotional symptoms that we're experiencing, like the ability to regulate our emotions or express our emotions or like verbalize ourselves. And others are more of like the hyperactivity or the struggles with focus or hypervigilance and whatnot. And there's other areas that are more for stability issues. And so I usually will go through a symptom assessment with the Each client before we start, and they'll tell me on a scale of zero to ten how distressful each of these different symptoms are. And that's where I'll be able to go through and see which ones are the most distressful and come up with a treatment plan of hey, I think we should focus on this area first, and then we'll go to this area and we'll keep moving around until we target all of your distressful symptoms. But we're gonna start with those that are most distressful right now and keep working up to it. And so over time it trains the brain to be able to regulate those areas of the brain so that it can so the symptoms and the distress can decrease.

SPEAKER_01 22:44

That's amazing. Okay. So you worked on the neural feedback while you were working at this at this facility. That's when you got your master's degree, correct?

SPEAKER_00 22:55

Yeah.

ART Eye Movements For Trauma

SPEAKER_01 22:56

Okay. And then when did you also so you have another modality that you practice within your clinic or within your practice now? ART. Is that correct? Yeah, yeah. ART. Tell us what the okay, what is say what yeah I it was like something at resolution therapy.

SPEAKER_02 23:13

Yes, it's accelerated resolution therapy.

unknown 23:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 23:18

It's an eye movement type of therapy, bilateral stimulation. Most people know what EMDR is. And so I'll just I usually will ask, as I describe, and I usually ask, like, hey, do you know what EMDR is? And sometimes they'll say yes, sometimes no. And if they say no, it's like, okay, well, it's EMDR is is more common, and so more people know about it. ART's been around for a long time, though, now. And so you use eye movements to be able to tap into to more of more of the subconscious area of the brain. So it passes by the logical thinking part of the brain, the frontal lobe, because if we get stuck in thinking and talking about our trauma, we're logically thinking through it. And sometimes that'll just block a whole lot of memories and a whole lot of distressful things that our midbrain and our subconscious are holding on to. So with the eye movements, it's basically mimicking what happens with rapid eye movement sleep. So rapid eye movement sleep, what happens during that time is process our brains process through everything that happened in our day, both the good and the bad things, and it stores it from our short-term memory to our long-term memory. And once it's in our long-term memory, it's just it's there. And and the only way that we can really really get to it from from what I've learned is is with these eye movements that can help us to tap into that, even memories that people don't even really remember. Like they feel like there's a veil that got them to not be able to remember certain distressful memories, and releasing those memories and being able to resolve them in that session has been monumental for these people.

SPEAKER_01 25:13

Yeah. And one of the things that I I want to know a little bit more about this related to EMDR, because one of the cautions that I was given when I was writing my book actually was when I discovered this because EMDR was what my therapist and I used to work through my trauma. And, you know, and anytime somebody has something that works for them, you want to tell everybody about it, right?

SPEAKER_00 25:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:35

And so I was very excited to share this. And I had one of my beta readers was a therapist. And when she read the section that I wrote on EMDR, she she sent me a note and said, I just want to caution you that EMDR can actually cause problems for people who who have a tendency to dissociate when they when they are having a trauma trigger. And she said that if you've got somebody who has like severe dissociation, you can actually trigger a like a break in them. And I was very concerned about that because I thought, well, I don't want to, I don't want to say everybody should use this if there's potential for harm. So I do know that you work with people who have dissociative disorders. And this is a is this is a uh therapy that you use. So how is this different from EMDR? Because it sounds, they sound very similar from what the way that you're describing them, but how are they how is it different and why is it a safer approach for people who struggle with dissociation?

SPEAKER_02 26:29

Yeah, and funny thing too is I a lot of the a lot of the clients that I've worked with that have a dissociative disorder of some sort, they've actually tried EMDR in the past and it hasn't really worked well for them. And ART for from what a lot of them have said is like this is the first time things have been starting to move and things have been starting to like resolve from my life, which is amazing. And so, so I wasn't I wasn't personally trained in EMDR. So the things that I know about are from what I've been taught by others who have been trained in EMDR, where EMDR works a lot more with negative cognitions and also it works through a process of basically the way I the way that I it's been described to me is you let your brain go down a rabbit hole in a way to try to find what it needs to process, what it needs to reprocess and and try to work through. And so that's where I can see it being problematic for those who have dissociative disorders, is it can take them down probably to a really dark place without any feeling of control. Whereas with ART, the thing that I love about it and that a lot of people love is it's very directive, it's very guided in the form that I am helping them to know kind of where they should be going in this process. So their brain is processing through something totally different than some others. But and so each ART session, it has a very similar process, but the images and the memories that they're experiencing and processing through are different every single time. And so it's it's working through events, it's working through stuck emotions, it's working through kind of anything that's keeping them feeling stuck from being able to move forward. With dissociative identity disorder, it's been amazing at being able to help regulate the whole system. So all of the different parts and identities that that the individual has. It's been helpful in them being able to communicate with each other and get them all on the same page instead of it being utter chaos in their mind all the time.

Dissociation Spectrum And Triggers

SPEAKER_01 28:43

And can we talk a little bit about because I I I just realized I don't think I've ever really talked a lot about dissociation here, and I think it would probably be helpful to talk about that. I I didn't understand, I think when somebody is struggling with all these different symptoms, there's a lot of times when we experience symptoms and we don't actually understand what's happening. And so we don't have a name for it. And I I had I didn't understand that one of the symptoms I struggled with was some minor dissociation. So it was whenever I would get triggered into they call it bipolar rage. I'm gonna use that term because that's a term that's used to describe this. I would have these, I would get triggered in, you know, by something usually one unfortunately one of my children did, and I would have like it was like a hair trigger. The second it happened, I was all of a sudden in this rage and it felt like I was watching myself do it. I didn't have any, I didn't feel like I was part of myself anymore. I would watch myself do that. And and part of the logical part of my brain was saying, stop, don't do this, but I didn't have any control anymore at that point.

SPEAKER_00 29:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:47

And then when it was over, I would feel terrible and I would feel, you know, I beat myself up. And I had a long, a lot of years where in this was one of the times when I quit therapy again. I had, I was going through this a lot. It was after my when my my son, so my second child that I gave birth to was, you know, a toddler. And I went to a therapist one time and they were, you know, telling me that some women just weren't cut out to be moms and I needed to put my kids in daycare and go back to work. And I was like, never going back to you again. Like that is not helpful to me. Yeah. And and I, it wasn't until years later that somebody gave a name to what I was experiencing, which was dissociation. And and so can you talk a little bit about that? Because I don't know when I hear that that term, I don't know if that's what other people experience because I haven't really talked a lot about that symptom. But can you talk about what dissociation is and what people are experiencing when they're having dissociative disorders where they experience a lot of that on a regular basis?

SPEAKER_02 30:43

Yeah. So dissociation happens on a spectrum. So if you look at it like a line on a spectrum, there's many different where places where it can kind of have a turnoff point. So some of them are related to different, different diagnoses like post-traumatic stress disorder, dissociative identity disorder, other dissociative disorders and whatnot, and other personality disorders. But also like the average person can dissociate. And a lot of people actually in this day and age do. I mean, scrolling on your phone is a form of dissociation. It's getting yourself out of reality for whatever moment that you're experiencing. And it, I mean, sometimes it's so what dissociation was meant for is it's something that you're it's a defense mechanism your brain has. But sometimes it can provide this escape, which is exactly why it's this defense mechanism is to escape from something that's harmful. It's usually experienced in those who have some form of abuse or experience violence in the home or experience neglect of some sort, trying to trying to get them to feel like they're in a safe place instead of knowing that they're alone. But then like there's other forms of dissociation that are that are more on the minor side, which could be like the scrolling aspect of things, which I mean it can't that that can be minor or major. I guess it depends on the person's screen use. But also there's I mean, addiction. That's a form of dissociation, that's a self-inflicted dissociation, and same thing with uh like some of the minor things. I don't know if you've ever driven on the road, like going on the freeway from point A to point B, but you have no idea what happened in between there. It's almost like you went from point A to point C and have no recollection of what B was because you've done that drive so many times. And that's something that's called highway hypnosis, which is basically just your brain is able to kind of go to Lala Land or wherever it wants to go while you're still physically aware of what's happening, but also at the same time you're you're not, you're more zoned out, and that's also another another form of dissociation is zoning out and not being in the present moment, and so that's where that's where the grounding skills helping the person to be able to get into that grounded present moment is very helpful. Um, that's where neurofeedback can be helpful, is it can help them to be able to feel safe to be in that grounded present state, and then we start moving into ART, which can help them to really process through things as they start feeling safer.

SPEAKER_01 33:43

Yeah, that's amazing. And I think I think one of the things that is helpful, especially the way you're talking about these things, is understanding why we experience these symptoms. One of the biggest issues that I have with all these mental health diagnoses, bipolar, obviously, from my specific focus, but I feel like what they do is they pathologize the symptoms and end curiosity. So we we think we've been given an answer as to why we're experiencing the symptoms. We think we've been, you know, some kind of under underlying disease mechanism has been identified. And we stop being curious about it and and kind of give up our agency to the medication, thinking the medication is supposed to fix this and I just have to live with whatever, whatever I live with, right? And and it ends curiosity, it stops people from being curious about why do I experiencing experience these symptoms. And the other thing that I've found is that because we create these categories or these disorders out of these symptom clusters, we tend to lump all of the symptoms into categories as well. So you know, when I I I work with people, when I work with people, I have them separate out symptoms. So instead of saying like I feel depressed, what does that mean? Like, tell me what that means. I I struggle getting out of bed, I have no motivation, I'm sleeping all the time. I, you know, I what what does that mean? Tell me all, tell me the specific symptoms you're experiencing. You know, same thing with anxiety, anxiety especially, I think is important to call out specific symptoms because you you can actually find clues in the symptoms to help you get underneath it and figure out where is this, what is that, what is my brain actually asking for? What does it need? What you know, what's happening right now? And so it's really interesting. Like I've never heard anybody talk about the different kind of spectrum of dissociation. I've never heard that before. This is so interesting. I've got like notes now because I'm like, I gotta learn more about that. I need to look into that. And that's why, you know, like one of the things that helped me so much was mindfulness meditation because I had trained my brain to like daydream because my brain was such an uncomfortable place to be. I didn't want to be there. And I had consistently trained my brain to go outside of itself and I didn't understand. Now I'm understanding that's what that's dissociation because my brain was uncomfortable. I was trying to escape, you know, that discomfort by training it to go somewhere else, which isn't helpful. Learning how to stay present helps you to actually do something about what's going on rather than just trying to escape it constantly.

SPEAKER_02 36:08

Yeah. I mean, it it is it is that escape, and that's why I'm saying in the in this day and age, dissociation is a lot more common than a lot of people think. I mean, it's not to the point of dissociative identity disorder to where a person has had their brain has defended themselves and developed other identities within its within that individual's body and whatnot and their brain. But I mean, if you think about it, like, yeah, whenever something really uncomfortable happens or something just aggravating, a lot of people's first line of defense is they pull out their phone and they get on whatever it is that they get on and start either scrolling or playing a game or doing something that's a distraction and it helps calm them down, but it's because there's some dopamine being released in that in that action as well.

SPEAKER_01 37:02

Yeah, and it and I think the uh the danger too is that we never learn how to deal with the distress. And so I I feel like the the outside of that coping, the distress becomes bigger.

unknown 37:14

Yeah.

What DID Really Is

SPEAKER_01 37:15

You know, I I always look at it like it's like a two-year-old throwing a tantrum. If you don't listen, they're gonna get louder. So your brain, you know, when you're feeling anxiety in a situation, your brain's asking for help. It doesn't feel safe for some reason. It's you know, the fight or flight instinct is kicking in. And if you don't investigate and find out why do I feel this distress in this situation or what what about how what's happening that's causing this distress? And we keep going to the dissociation and escaping, then every time we get in that situation, that distress will heighten, which increases the anxiety. Like we're we're working against ourselves without realizing it. And it makes it harder and harder to cope with life, right? And then then we want to turn to medication to shut it down because we're like, I don't like that fire alarm and going off, you know, even though the smoke is what's setting off the fire alarm, we want to shut off the fire alarm. So I would like to ask you to talk a little bit more about dissociative identity disorder. It's interesting because I feel like with the rise of social media, and and I've said this before, so I'm gonna say it here. I feel like we have a culture that rewards victim status. And so when somebody is looking for belonging or looking for connection, sometimes people will go online and look for communities to belong to. And I think people start to think, oh, I maybe I have this problem when they're listening to somebody else. In fact, I was listening to a um uh researcher talking about some research they'd done on how suggestive, how suggestive um youth are. And they did an experiment with them where they did presentations about ADHD among a group of kids that did not qualify, you know, don't didn't have those symptoms. And by the end of it, a very high percentage of the kids decided they must have ADHD. And and all it was was just talking about the symptoms. And so when you when you put that in the, you know, in social media context, you know, when you've got out all these people trying to bring awareness and talk about their symptoms, people can start to think, oh, I have that, or oh, I have that, because it, you know, there's a lot of we're very suggestive. I don't know if I'm using that word right now. But but uh I I would like to have you, if you have any comments about that, by all means share what you want to say. But I do want to have you also talk about what DID actually is because I think it's helpful. Most people, the only experience we have with that is either online or movies where somebody's acting. So can you talk about that?

Integration Without Erasing Parts

SPEAKER_02 39:40

Yeah, there's not really any Hollywood portrayals that are accurate when it comes to DID. It's basically every everything that you see on in media, they end up being like serial killers or something like that. But that's totally far from the truth because DID always, like I'm being bold to say always, because I because it is a truth of it always forms from a form of childhood trauma. It's something that comes from from when our minds are very vulnerable and just really distressful things are happening, whether it's abuse or the neglect, abandonment. And when I say abuse, any kind of abuse, whether it's physical, sexual, emotional, psychological abuse, different things like that. And the dissociation part of things is the brain trying to protect the body from experiencing that again. And so sometimes it pulls it kind of like pulls the brain mind away from being present when something like physical abuse is happening to that to that child or to that teenager or whoever. And sometimes their brain gets stuck in this identity that was formed around that area to where to where maybe they'll have a child part that is stuck in that childlike state that just remembers things as they were in that time period. And then there's an adult part that they felt like they had to be because maybe they had to take care of all of their siblings, otherwise they were reprimanded for it, even if they were a 12 or 13 or 14-year-old kid. And so they their brain was able to separate from the fear of getting reprimanded or getting physically abused again, or whatever it may have been, and being able to develop this new this new identity of oh, someone who's successful and able to do all of these things. And so it's not it's not an imaginative type of thing. It becomes very real to where the brain starts to separate into these different these different parts. And it's not uncommon for me to be able to see in session, especially at the very beginning, when they're very dysregulated, very emotional about things, to be changing so many times to different different parts, to where one topic may trigger the childlike part to come out, and then all of a sudden something triggers an adult-like part to come out or or anywhere in between. And so DID comes from that, and and all the different people that I've met with that have dissociative identity disorder are some of the kindest people that you would ever meet. And they are the ones that want to heal, they want to improve, they won't, they want, they see something is not quite right for them, and they're wanting to find whatever it looks like to become an integrated being, which doesn't mean all of their identities fuse together into one core self, which that is something that can happen, but a lot of times they're a lot of times there are parts that have helped them survive through the years, they're afraid of just being kicked out and disappearing, making making them go away. And so integration is something that I like to make that distinction. Integration is more than just fusing them together, it's more of hey, if you were to picture the best family in the world that really got each other and supported each other and was there for each other and built each other up and communicated really well, that's what we're looking for. We're looking to create this sense of unity within their within their system so that they're able to work together and do so effectively and appropriately to where maybe there's one person who one identity who is in charge. Like the whole time, but they're all getting together and supporting each other instead of it being in disarray, like when they first come in.

SPEAKER_01 44:08

Yeah. And I I think one of the things I love about that, what the way you're talking about it is instead of and they talk about this in like different there's different kinds of therapy that that focus on parts, you know, internal family systems, parts therapy. And I think that that's just I think that we naturally as human beings have a tendency to, you know, when you're in a when you're in a professional setting, you know, you kind of put on a different persona versus when you're with your family. So I think that there's a little bit of naturalness to that. But I feel like when we are in extreme situations, our brain looks for ways to handle it. And it is just like somebody who's like had a severe injury, like like a limb chopped off all of a sudden, the brain like rushes to shut down pain sensors because the amount of pain you would experience would overwhelm the body and could kill you. Right. And so our brains, like you said, are super complicated. And so something that is a natural part of our being human can end up being taken to an extreme by the brain when it's in an extreme situation in an effort to preserve the person. And so I think that the thing that I love about what you're talking about is instead of looking at the person as you are broken and you're dysfunctional, like disordered, meaning I, you know, I know that it's called disorder, but but the way you're talking about it is not approaching it from like you have a disease and it's not fixable and you're gonna, we're gonna teach you how to cope with it. You're talking about how, you know, honoring the fact that your brain did its job and trying to protect you in a very extreme circumstance. And now we're going to work with your, you know, your brain and your the different parts that developed as a as a result to try and help you live a healthy life, like try and help you it integrate in a way that will help you, you know, support you living a healthy life that is going to bring joy to you and help you be live a fulfilling, you know, live a fulfilling existence. Yeah. And you, I think when we talked about this before we met, you know, today, you talked about the relief that people feel when you talk about that. Can you can you tell talk about that a little bit and why people feel relieved when you don't talk about having to heal necessarily, but reintegrating and I like what you said about like the you know, really functional family that works really well together.

SPEAKER_02 46:22

Yeah, I mean, just from day one, when they know that there's there's a plan ahead and that there's hope, that's that's where people start feeling the relief from just day one. And it's amazing where where that's that's where I feel like therapy needs to be like is that there's hope that something good can happen. Because a lot of these people, they come and they they've been stuck in darkness for so long, maybe four decades. And they come in and as you start expressing, like, hey, like your brain did such an amazing job at helping you through all of this, it must be difficult right now how you're how things are being handled right now and how you're experiencing the world, but also there's hope. Like, there's hope for a better future for yourself. Like you don't have to be stuck how you are. And we can use X, Y, and Z to get us through these steps to be able to start moving in that direction. And a lot of times, even having the diagnosis itself is very relieving to them. It helps them to understand, like, so there is a reason why I'm experiencing what I'm experiencing, and it gives the it gives a name and also it gives them kind of like an action plan of oh, there is an actionable plan that I can do and that we can work on together, and I'm not alone in this. Obviously, it's in the diagnostic manual for a reason. Many more people experience this, and so yeah, that just brings so much relief, even from day one, which is amazing.

SPEAKER_01 48:02

Yeah. And I it's interesting as you're talking about this. I when I first started sharing what I do about bipolar, I was very cautious because I thought I only have my experience, and what if my experience isn't somebody else's? And so I was very cautious about being too bold and you know, what I shared. But the more research I did, and the more I started understanding, you know, the brain is asking for help, and we need to stop trying to shut down the alarm. You need to stop shutting it down and look for the source. So look with curiosity about how, like you're talking about, like the brain, you know, when you see somebody with these, with these symptoms, what they're experiencing are symptoms of trauma, but you can look at it and say, okay, most people who experience this have, you know, the underlying source is trauma. Your brain was trying to cope with severe trauma. So let's look with curiosity at that and see why these different parts developed. And and the same thing, you know, when somebody, when people come to me with, you know, their bipolar symptoms and they're told that they have it is very distressing to have somebody say, you're broken, you've got a disease, you know, you've got a disorder that's gonna you're gonna have for the rest of your life, that causes a lot of hopelessness. But when we start recognizing the alarms went off for a reason, there's, you know, and and we look with curiosity at the story and say, what, you know, what was tell me your story? What were, you know, what was your life like? Do you have a history of trauma? You know, what is your diet like? What are, you know, what are, you know, we'd go through what is your experience with psychotropic medications that could have caused further dysregulation as we go through all of those things and look with curiosity for it at it. And then there are tools that you can do, you know, something about it. The that you can actually treat the underlying source, start putting the fire out so that the smoke stops, and then the alarms go off. You know, then they stop going off and you sorry, that's probably confusing the way I'm saying that, but the alarm goes stops blaring because you put the fire out.

SPEAKER_00 49:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:54

And that's where people start to think, oh, I'm not broken irreparably. I don't have to live like this forever. You know, I can heal, I can recover, and I can have the life that I would hope to have.

How Clients Find Help

SPEAKER_02 50:06

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, beautifully said.

SPEAKER_01 50:09

So when somebody works with you, I I'm I'm very curious about how do people come to you? Because you're saying they receive the diagnosis, some people receiving the diagnosis with you. How do people like what what makes them come to you in the first place? Are they suspicious that they have that diagnosis? Do you work with other people as well? Like what brings people to your practice?

SPEAKER_02 50:29

Yeah, a lot. So so because I say that I specialize in in childhood trauma and just any form of trauma that someone's been through, a lot of people come because of that. And they come wanting to explore that. And sometimes they they come and they feel very fractured and they feel like I have no idea what's going on. Like I feel like Dr. Google has told me that dissociation is something that I'm experiencing. And so I have no idea what that is, or I've never heard about that before, but it kind of makes sense and stuff like that. And then they come in and it's very clear to me either, yes, they do have dissociative identity disorder after going through like a thorough history of their symptoms and a very thorough history of like an assessment of different things that they've been experiencing for them to be diagnosed with that, or a different dissociative disorder. Or maybe it is post-traumatic stress disorder and there's those dissociative symptoms to it. There's all sorts of different different ways that people end up coming in. And some people did get diagnosed by someone else, by another provider, who says, I know enough to know that this is what you have, but I am not trained enough for this, or I have not gone through enough training for it. So let's let's find someone together for you to go see. And a lot of times people will end up finding me through all of that.

SPEAKER_01 52:08

Can I ask you one thing? We got to wrap up because you you have a deadline. But I one of the things that you and I found in common was was that therapy is only effective if the person who is seeking the therapy wants to do something about their life, if they want to do the work to actually heal. How do you do you work with people to help them understand that? Or do most people who come to you, are they ready to work? Like, how do you help people understand how to use therapy in a proactive way to actually get to recovery and healing rather than just staying stuck?

SPEAKER_02 52:39

Yeah, I feel like most people come in of their own free free will and their own like choice to make to make the decision to walk in the door. I have had some who it's mostly it's mostly teenagers. Like some teenagers who don't want to be there, but their parents feel like they need to be there and stuff. And they're they want to sit back on the couch and not do anything and stuff, and we just chat and try to build this connection with each other, and and I usually will just like express to them of like, hey, you're here anyways, right now. How can we make this not a waste of your time? Because obviously, like it seems like you're fine with just sitting back and not wanting to do anything for the next hour, but like what would it what would make this actually helpful for you or something that you'd actually maybe look forward to coming to? And usually we're able to find some creative modalities to be able to work together and and uncover some different things. And I mean, neurofeedback is one of those of those modalities that a lot of those that are stuck are willing to try. And then as they work through that, then eventually it's like, no, I actually want to start working through this because I noticed this is actually preventing me from having a happier life.

Hopeful Closing And Resources

SPEAKER_01 54:02

Amazing.

SPEAKER_02 54:03

Eddie, if somebody wants to connect with you, how can they how can they well my my website is one, so psychology today is also another place to find find me and a slew of other therapists. And also even just reaching out to me through email. That's that's another great way. If they were wanting to set up a free 15-minute consultation, no strings attached and whatnot, they can find my calendar on my website as well.

SPEAKER_01 54:32

And if you can share, this is always I should have warned you, but I always ask people what's the one thing that you hope somebody will take away from our conversation today? Is there one thing that you want to make sure that's the last word? What would you like for people to take away from our conversation?

SPEAKER_02 54:47

Okay. Therapy does not have to be hard or scary, and healing is possible.

SPEAKER_01 54:54

That's amazing. I couldn't have said it better myself. That's fantastic. Thank you so much, Eddie. I appreciate you coming on today. This has been so illuminating. I might have all these notes because I might want to go study these things more now, but I appreciate you coming on. It has been really behind me. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 55:09

I appreciate you having me. Thank you. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 55:12

All right, until next time, Upsiders. Thanks for joining me on the Upside of Bipolar. Your journey to recovery matters, and I'm grateful you're here. For more resources, visit www.theupsideofbipolar.com. If you're ready to dive deeper, grab my book, The Upside of Bipolar, seven steps to heal your disorder. If you're ready to heal your symptoms, join my monthly membership, The Upsiders Tribe, to transform chaos into hope. Until next time, Upsiders