Menachos 106

Daf Yomi 

Transcript

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Today's Babukaman of Samhovaver, but the last thin line on Samohayimid Bay, starting with the words Amarabilah So one thing we need to know for the following Gemara is that there's a mitzvah de Araisa. After someone steals something, this is one of the mitzvahisas that you don't necessarily hope to be Mikhaim in your life, but once someone stole, and he did that at Sir D Araisa, there's actually now a mitzvah the Araisa, the Hey Shivesagzelah Asher Ghazal, to return the item that you stole. Now we learn from the words Asher Ghazal, the Hey Shivesakzela, return the the object that you stole, Asher Ghazal, that you can't just pay the value of it. You have to return the actual item. You can't just say, I'm sorry, I'm keeping the item, but here's the money for it, and that's not gonna patter you. No, if you still have the item, you're gonna be high to pay the actual item that you stole. However, and this is a big however, if you made a shinoi to the item that you stole and you did something that changed the actual item, you made a shinoi in it, then you were actually koinit, because the allachu is that a shinoi is koine, a shinoi makes you koinet. Now you didn't patter your khyev to give it back to him because you stole stole from him. So at that point you could pay him the value, because then the day once you did a shinoi, you were koina this item, it now belongs to you. Now your khyov da Iraisa to pay him back is going to be with money, and you're gonna pay him back money. The question now the Gemar is gonna pose is, and by the way, we're bringing the sugiya, it sounds a little random, but we're gonna circle back to something that Rav said yesterday, and we're gonna ask Akasha on Rav based off this suya. But for now, the suya in front of us is we know Shinoi is koina. What about a shinoi that happens mimela? So I understand if you did something big of dime to the actual item and you changed it, so shinoy is kaina, now you just have to return the value of it. You're not gonna have to return the actual item. What if the shinoi happens memela? As the following case, Amrabila Rabila says, Gonav tleh vanase ayol. He stole the animal when it was a baby goat, but then it grew older and became an ayo. So that's a shinoi, but it happens memela. You didn't do anything actively, but a shinoi did happen. It used to be a tleh, it used to be a baby goat, now it's an aisle, now it's a full grown. Eagle vanase shar. Or you stole the wall as an eagle, meaning a calf, a baby calf, and it turned into a big boy shar. So nase shinoi beyadeh. So Rabila says aloha that that, although it's a shinoi memela, it's a shino that happens in memelah, still, it's considered a shinoi, nasa shino beyode, and he was kainit, and therefore he's gonna be haived to pay the owner, he's gonna be hive to pay the owner the value. Not only that, tabachumachar, shalaiu to beh shalyu maikh. The kiddish is, and this is the khiddish that he w if he was tabahumaikhir, withh is that after someone after someone steals a shar o'i or a seh and he goes and he sells or shachts it, we know that Allah is gonna be Dalveheh. He's gonna have to pay Dalvaheh. However, in this case, that he stole it while it was an uh tle and it became an ayol. So a shinoi happened that Rabillah is considering an actual Shinoh, even though it was a Shinabhemay that Rabbi is considering it 100% a shinoi. So since if this Shinoi happened, it becomes his because he was kainet, and therefore if he was tabehumaikher, if he shachtted or sold it, shall I huhbech shalaihu maikher? He's shachting and selling his own thing, and he's not gonna be haived behe. Again, because the only time you're gonna be haived behe is where you scheched that person's animal. But right now it's your animal because a shinoi happened. The shinoi, you were kainit. Let's not forget, you still owe the guy money for sure, you stole from him. But the point is now that you go and shacht it, you're shechting your own animal. You're shachth, you're shafting your own animal because you a shinoi happened that made it yours, the shinoi is kainet, and that's the khadh Shabila's saying. Says the Gemara Israel Rabilah, and Bachinina asked on Rabillah from the following Braissa, which sounds the exact opposite of what Rabillah just told us. Gunav tle vinasa, I also stole a tle, and it grew up to become an ayel, so a shinemail happened. Or igovas, he's gonna pay kafel and dalivahe kein shegunov. He's gonna pay Ka'in Shagunov according to the amount it was worth at the time that he stole it. Now we'll discuss later exactly why Ka'in Shagunov. It's not, this isn't getting into the Suggi of Rav yet that said that you pay the Karen. If you remember yesterday, you pay the Karen, Kain Shagunov, but the Dalit Bhe, Kaifel and Dalvehe, Kesha Mada Beddin. That's not the sugi right now. Right now we're gonna we're gonna discuss later why exactly Kain Shagunov. The kasha right now is why you pay it all. Why do you pay Kayful or Dalit Vihai? Kayful, I understand. Why do you pay Dalit Vihai if you were Taveah Umaikher after you stole it and a Shinoi happened? A Shinoi happened according to U Rabullah, that's enough of a Shinoi to make it yours now, and therefore Shalay Tavash Shahalay Bahiballah said. So why in this brace is it saying that you're gonna pay Dalit Vah Isa Katayah Khai if you're gonna tell me Rabullah that he was koinet because of the Shinoah that happened, because it grew up and it went from its led to being an isle, and now you're telling me that a shino happened and it belongs to you, so why don't you tell me that it belonged to you? So why are you gonna be chaired Dalvehey if you shacht it? Again, Isa Kadaidah Khabi Bishinoi. If you're gonna assume, like you just said, that you were coined with this shino that happened to it, then I'm I Mishaliam. Why are you gonna pay the Dalad Bheh? Shalaiu to Bashalayu maikh. You're shachting what belongs to you. Now it belongs to you, and you're selling whatever belongs to you. You're not shachting you're selling his animal that you're gonna be high dalahe. According to you, after the shinoi happened, it was once a tle when you stole it, now it's an aisle. A shinoi happened, it belongs to you, you're allowed to shacht and sell your own thing. You're just high of him the monetary aspect, you're haived to pay him the value of it in money. The point is, why are you gonna be high da'alad vehe? So it seems to be him a first araih against you from this braisa that even though this shinoi happened, you're still paying Dalad Vehe. What does that show us? That this Shinoi didn't give it to you, it didn't make you be kind of this animal, but rather you're still shafting and selling what belonged to him. That's why you're gonna be haired Dalad Vehei. So Amalai, Rabila, answer Ram Khanina, that okay, I hear. You have a braissa that sounds like it's a cash on me, but you're assuming that that braisa is good. I have a different cash on that braisa, and once I show you there are other issues with that braisa, so it's not gonna be much of a cash. So because we could just really say that this braisa is uh mishabeshtah. So Amalai, Rabilah answered, well I'm I Shinoi Loikani. So what are you gonna tell me? That's Shino like this. A Shinoi that happens to melee, you're gonna tell me that it's not koinah, and really it still belongs to the Ghana, then I'm Amasham Kane Shaganov. Then I have a different problem. Why did the Braissa say that he's gonna pay the value of it? He's gonna pay the Dalad Vehe Keyn Shagunov according to the value it was at the time that he stole it. Uh sha'im kihashdah, if anything, he should pay according to today's value. And by the way, very important for Pasha, Paneshua speaks out that we're not talking about the sugi of Rav. Again, we're gonna circle back to Rav from yesterday, who told us that there's a difference between the Karen that you're paying back and the kaifel and the Dalad Vehei. Whereas the Karen you're gonna pay Kesha Geneva, and the kaifel of Dalad Vehei, you're gonna pay Kesha Samadh but then you're gonna pay according to the later value. This is not a kasha based off Rav. That you should pay according to now's value, because Rav said that you should pay the Dalit Vehe according to now, not according to the time that you stole. This is not at all Rav. The question over here of Rabilah answering Bekhanino, then if you're gonna tell me it's Shina is not Kaineh, then why are you paying Kain Shaganav? You should pay like now why? Because that's how we look at every case inherently when you schecht or sell something, meaning it was the Gunavs up until that point. And when you scheched it, at that point, that's really when you stole it. And that is considered the Shasta Ganeb over here, because you scheched it, that's when you killed the animal. And at that point, that's where it was was still in the Rashus of the Bailin. So basically, if you're gonna tell me that Shinoi was not koine, so it still belonged to the Gun of the whole time. So when you scheched it, that's essentially when you stole it. That's according that's when you should pay. Lasham Kihashtah, why are you gonna pay at the time that you stole it? Why are you gonna pay according to the value it was, how much it was worth at the time that you stole it? You should pay according to today's value, right now, because you just scheched it, and that's how much, and it just left the Rashush of the Baylin because it was in his Rashus up until now, according to you, that Shinoi was not koinah, therefore he still basically owns it. So why does the Braissa say that he's gonna pay Kishasa Geneva? If anything, you should pay Kihashtah, and if and if so, I have a different problem with the Brycea. So don't ask me questions from a Braissa that is messed up internally. So Amalai. So I'm kidding, answer ever. No, tell you. Kihashtah Hainu Tamid Allah Misham. You want to know why he's not paying the Dalai according to today's value, according to Kihashta? Because the Gyanov could tell the baile, could tell the owner that Turgan Mimimcha, did I steal a shore from you? I stole a short full-grown shore? I didn't. I stole a I stole it while it was a calf. While it was an eagle. Dihura Ganmimcha, did I steal uh aisle from you? A full grown goat? I didn't. I stole it while it was a toilet. And therefore, Rib Khanina is saying essentially that although Shinoi doesn't work, it does work a little bit. You have to look at the Shina like at some type of halfway thing that's gonna work halfway because you could use it as a tiny in the end of the day. I didn't steal a full-grown shore from you. That's why I'm not gonna have to pay according to today's value when it already grew up to a full-grown shard, because what I stole from you was an eagle. It was when it was a young little eagle, and therefore that's what I'm gonna have to pay for you. So according to Rib Khanina and a khanami, this kind of shinoi is really not gonna be coine, and that's why you're still gonna pay the Dalad Behe, because when you shachted it, you didn't shacht what belonged to you because you were never Kine based off the Shinoi. It still belonged to him, that's why you're gonna pay the Dalad Behe Baklao. But you're also gonna pay according to not today's price, but according to the price it was when you stole it, because Shinoi a little bit we do take into the picture. So again, we don't take Shinoi into the picture in the fact that we're gonna tell you you were Kaineh. No, you were not Kaina, Shino is not Kaina, but then the day there was a Shinoi here. So you do you do have, according to Rabukhinina, it's some type of in-between place, you do have some type of taina to say that I didn't steal sharp from you. I stole it while it was much younger, while it was a calf, and that's why I'm only gonna pay that value because some Shinoi did happen. So Rukhanina is acknowledging the Shinoi, he just doesn't take it that far to say that Shino is gonna be Kaina, that you're not gonna be haired the Dalbahe, because we're gonna say Shaloihu Tavh Shalayhu Mayhir, but says the Gemara I'm alayh. Rabilah told back to Rukhina after he heard that. Rahmana needs lambiha dai to Kha. Kajbrahu should save us. Rahmana needs lun from your shito, from your opinion that you just said, Khajbahu should save us from such a swarah you're gonna tell me it's either a Shino or it's not a Shino. You're gonna tell me some ha some type of halfway Shinoi, says Gamar Amal. Rib Khana answered back Rabilah Adrabah, Rahmana needs the rabah, Khajbah should save us from your swarah. Because in the end of the day, I think what I'm saying is good. That we could say this type of halfway Shinoi, that we do consider it a Shino in the fact that he's not gonna pay according to today's value, but we don't consider it a Shino enough for him to be Koinet, to be Potter from Dalbahe. Say's Gmar Mask, Ribzera, Ribzaira asked the following. On the braisa that Rab Khanina brought, that basically said that this Shinoi that happened in Mela is not gonna be considered a Shinoi, that he's gonna be Koineth because you're still gonna pay Dalvehe. So basically, the Shino Mimela that I grew up is not gonna be considered something that's gonna make him coinet. So Ribzera asked on that. When the Knino Bishina B Shinoi Hashem. Okay, even if you want to tell me that he's not gonna be Koineth because of a Shinoi Mimela that happened, a Shinoi happened to Mela, you're not gonna be considered a Shinoi, and that's why he's not gonna be Koinet. Okay, but in the end of the Shinoi Hashem still happened. There are different types of Shinoyim that could be Koine. One of them is a Shinoi Maisa, a Shinoi in the actual gulf of the thing, whatever happened, like being a young calf to becoming a big shara. That's one Shinoi. And over here, even if you don't want to consider that a Shinoi, there was still a Shinoi Hashem, there was a Shinoi in what it's called. Because before it was called a Tele, now it's called an Isle. Before it was called uh before it was called an eagle, now it was called a Shar. So there's still a Shinoi in the shame, and that Shinoi in the shame itself, now you call it a big boy shar. Before you called it a little calf, and therefore that shinoi in how people call it should be enough of a shinoi to change the reshos and to make it as if he owns it now, to make the gun of be koine this animal because of the shino yashem. Again, even if you don't want to consider the shinoi of the actual animal that happened because it happened to Mela, even if you don't want to consider that a Shinoi to be kine, still a Shinoy Hashem, we know it's kinda, says Gamaramaravarava answered, then no. I'll tell you it's just not true. This premise of the question is not true because sharbiny me, karashar. Because you're assuming that a shar as a baby is called an eagle and an eagle only, and then when it grows up, it's called a shar. That's not true because a sharbiny, even a shar that's a day old, is still sometimes called a shar. Ayo binyo'ai, kara ayol, same relate as relates to an ayol. A ayol is called an aisle even while it's a tless sometimes. Why? How do we see that? Sharbinyama kara shar diqsiv shar o keseb o ais kivyolin. The Pasik says a shar or a keseb or a ayz ki oli when it's born. So we see when it's born, it's called a shar already. Saskimara, ayobin yama kara ayol. How do we know that? It says by Ya'akib talking to Loven, he said, The Eilit Sanchal Khalti, I didn't eat the ailit sonch. What are you telling me? That the ayolim, the big ones he didn't eat. But the kvasim, the small ones, the the little tly we were talking about before, that Yaqab binu did eat. So obviously not. Allah Shmaina, obviously we see that he was referring to everything. That Ayol, Ben Yaimakari Ayli was referring to even when he said the illite sancha, he was even referring to the they old I Ayolim. That's even what he was referring to. So obviously we see that a shar is not exclusive to a full-grown animal, and neither is an ayol, and that's why there was also no Shino Yashem. Sena Khanami. People call it a tless sometimes, people call it an angle sometimes, but people also call it the name you're gonna name it in the future, and that's why it's not considered a Shino Yashem to be Kind, and that's why it's not gonna be a Kasha on the Brahis. But either way, says Imami, call Makam Kasha. Then the name we still have a Kasha on Rabilah. Because how could you tell me, Rabilah? That's what we started with in the first line of today's Daf, that not on today's Daf, but the first time where we started on the first wide line, the point is that we still have a Kasha on Rabilah. How could you tell me that you don't pay Dalad Bahey in this situation when you stole it as a young little calf and it became into a shore? You're not gonna pay Dalad Behe if you shachted then because the Shinui that it grew older, that she noi is gonna make it in uh gonna put it into your shoes. You were now coin it, and shalloi hu toyveh, shalaiu maikher, you shachth and it sold something that belonged to you. So you don't owe him Dalit Vehe, that's only if you shacht his animal. But if you already shafted your own, how could you tell me that, Rabillah, that you're not gonna pay Dalvehe? If the price has said me first, you pay Dalvehei. Still we had a price or we had a technical problem with it. The point is the price is still said me first. That in this exact case, where you stole it as an eagle, if it became into a shore, you're gonna pay Dalvehe. So how could you, Rabilla, tell me you're not gonna pay Dalvehe? If the price is says me first, you're gonna pay Dalvehe. Says Muram or Shaishes. And if Sheshis explains Hamani, I'll tell you. You wanna know who that price is? Beshamahi, that price is going according to Bishami. The um Shinoi bim Kaymoi Oymedas, Bach changes it to made. Vilaikani. Bhishamay argues with this whole idea. Bhishamay says that Shino is not Koine. So we started the Daf today saying Shinoi is Kaine. Nishamah, Bishama's gonna say no. Shinoi is not Koine, and therefore, in a khanami, that price is going according to Baishamahai. So even though this Shinoi happened, it's Beshamahai. So he's gonna hold it's not Koine, and that's why you're gonna pay Da'd Behe, because you're shefting his animal, because the Shinoi did not make you kind of this animal. But according to Rabilah in the beginning of the daf, he's not going according to Baishamah. He's going according to Bahilil, as we know, Bishama and Makam Bahil, ain't no Mishnah Bikla. And therefore, Baishilal would say that Shinoi is Koine, and that's why Rabila was saying that if a Shino happened, this Shinoi that it grew older is gonna be considered enough of a Shinoi, according to Bashilah at least, that you're gonna be Kaineh now, and that's why you're not gonna be Hai Dalvehe, because of Shalayhu Tabah, Shalayhu Mayh. So basically Rafsh is explaining that Braissa don't ask me from because it's sheetahs, Baishamay. How do we know that Bishamah holds that a Shinoi is not koineh? I have a braisa. This Brah says as it relates to the Isr of Esnan Zaina. The Possak says, something along those lines. Now is that money that was used to pay a zaina, to hire a zaina, you're not allowed to use that money to bring to the base of Megnosh for anything. That's the Isr of Esnan Zainah. So what if you made a shinoi? So money was used to hire a zaina, and you made a shinoi in it. So the bread says the following: Nasan la besnana chitin. Someone paid a zaina. With chitan, he paid a chitin. And now she made it into soilas. She grinded it and made it into soil. So she did a shinoi. So now the question is, can you bring that thing? Ashino was already done. It's not the direct thing that was used as payment for this nus, but rather it was already a shino was done. So can you bring that? Another case. So he paid with olives and she made it into oil. Anovim asatan yain. He paid with grapes and she made it into yayin. Tani chada, one brace that says us. One of them says that it's usr to bring it because it's still, even though the shino was done, it's still gonna be usr to bring because it's included in the Isr of Esn'Zin. If a tani chada, the other brace says mutter, it's actually gonna be mutter. Once the shino was done, it's not considered esnanzin, and you're gonna be allowed to bring it for the base of my gas. Gurion the mayaspork he was a chaham, so he taught the Bishamay Oyster and Misal Matirin. You brought it down as two different braces, one says us, one says mutter. I'll tell you who they were. Beshamay Oiser and Misal Matirin. Bishama is the one that says it's Usr, because even though it's Shinoi, Shinna doesn't really help me. Bisil says no, Shinoi helps, and therefore it's gonna be okay now to bring it. There's no Isr of Esman Zaina once Ashina was made because he paid with Chitin. Now it's not Chitana anymore, it's Silas, and that's why you're gonna be able to bring him. Well, one thing we see from over here is that Beshama is the Shita, that Shina doesn't help me. As it relates to Espanzaina, at least we see over here that Ashinoi does not help. Even Ashina that was done to it, it's still gonna be considered Esmansina, and it's still gonna be included in the Isr. So Ashina doesn't help according to Baishamahai. So you want to know who the Brysa is in our Sugya, that Ashina is not gonna be Kaina, even though Ashina happened to this animal, it used to be young, now it's old, and it's even called something else. Actually, actually, we saw it's really called the same thing all the time. That wasn't a question, but the point is that who you want to know who that is actually this Baishamai. Rabishamah is against Shinoyim in general. He holds that Ashina doesn't really make a difference in terms of Kenyan, it doesn't make a difference in terms of Esmin Zaina, it's still the same Nikar. And therefore, over here also in that sugiyya, it's not a question on what Ribilah said because that Brahsa is Baishamai, and Rabilah the stomach is not going in Baishamahai. What is the reason of Bishamah that doesn't hold of Ashina? It doesn't hold a Shina is gonna make a difference. Because the Pasik says, Gam, Lirabais Shinuyaim. The pasik is relates to esnanzina and makir kalev. Again, esnant zaina we explained. Something you swap for a dog, you can't either bring that. The point is that the pasik says, Both those things, esnant zaina and makir kaleb are tayiva for a kadushbaru. But it says Gamshnayim, both of them. What is gam snaim? What's the extra word gam also? Gam is lirrabay shinayim according to Baishamah. Gam is to include even their shino. Even if a shinoi happened, so he paid with khitam, and again, she made it into silas, even that shinoi is gonna be included in the issir of Esn' Zaina, that's how Bishamay knows. So, Bishop, what's Baisola gonna say? Haim Vilay Shinoyah. No, he learns from the word haim. The posik says again, gamsnehem, but he learns from the word sneim, he splits it in half. Shneh hem. So the hem, he's gonna learn Vilay Shinaim. Haim, meaning only them, only those things himself, Velaishinahim, not their Shinoi, meaning if a Shinoi happened, it's not gonna be included in the Isrsirs. That's how we see Baishamai holds of Baishamah does not hold the Shinoi is gonna make any difference. What's a Bishamah gonna do with the word haim? And it which again is not a word on its own, it's really shnehem, but what's Baishamah gonna do with the haim? So Zagamara Haim, Veloi, Vladise Muda. So Bishama's gonna learn Haim Vilay Vladim. The only thing that's usar as Esnan Zaina Mikhir Kalev is the animal itself that was used for that, either Esnan Zaina or the Mikhir Kalev. But not their Vlad, not any Vladis that they have, basically any offsprings from these animals are not going to be included in the Isr, says where's Basil gonna learn that Allah for? He already used the word Haim, says Gamar Tati Shamash Mila. He can learn both from the word heim because only them, meaning Hey Vilah Shinou, and Haim, as they were before, like he said, and not any Shinoi that happened. So once the Shinoi happened, it's not gonna be included in this according to Basil. And also Hidarshins, like Bishamah just said, Hey Malay Valda Sam. Also, Haymala Sam, the only Isra is gonna be Haim, them themselves, but not their Vladuis Bisol, says Gamar, hooksiv gam. What's Basil gonna do with the word gam? Where Bishamay learnt gam is a reboy also to re be Marba the Shinoi, that the Shinoi, even if a Shinoah was done, it's also gonna be included in the Isra according to Bishamah. What's Besil gonna do with the word gam? says Gamar, Gam the Bisil, Kasha. And a knam you're right. Gam according to Basil, we're not sure what to do with it, and therefore it's a Kasha, says Gamar. One thing we see from here. Now is why we brought this in the first place, by the way. We explained in the beginning of the duff, it's gonna be a kasha and rav. This is the kash and rav. So just to jog our memory from yesterday, Rav said a halochwa, that Ganov, when he steals, he's gonna pay the Karen, the initial payment, the value of what he stole. He's gonna have to pay that. Obviously, by the way, if the item is not here anymore, because if the item was here, he has a mitzvah drias of a Hisham was like Zaila Ashall, Ashra Ghazal Daika to give back the exact ghazelah that he stole, or gonna, but the point is that over here he doesn't have it anymore, so he's gonna pay the value. So how much he's gonna pay, how much is he gonna pay? The maker it was, the value it was at the time that he stole it? What if the value changed? What if the value went down? Maybe he has to pay only according to the lesser value that it's worth today. So Rab said that the Karen K in Shagana. The Karen is gonna pay the initial value he's gonna pay according to the value it was at the time that he stole it. But as it relates to the kafel, or the Dalit Vehe, in the event that it was just Shar said that he was Tebechumikher, the Allah is that he's gonna pay the kafel in the Dalvehe, Kesha Samadabadin, according to the price that it is today when he's invested. Says the Gamara. One thing we see from here, from this whole back and forth between Rabbilah and R Khanina is that Ad Khanloi plegi, elo de mars of our Shinoi Koino Marsaver, In Shinoi Kaina. One thing we see is that the only machik is over here is that one of them holds. Ribilah holds that a Shinoi is koina, that's why you're gonna be putter from the Dalvehe, because Shalayhu Taybeh, Shalayu Baikher, as we said in the beginning of the Subya, Umar Savan and the other Shita Ribchanina holds who asked questions on Rabillah, then no, In Shino Kaina. Shinina is not gonna be Koina because he brought a price, that's cash on Rabilah again. Rabila answered that's Bishamah. The point is that he holds the only Machlikas over here between Rabilah and Ribbachanina is if Shinoi is koine. This Shinoi that happened Memela, again, I think everyone's gonna agree, Ms. Tomo, that a regular Shina is gonna be Koina, besides Bri Shamah. But a regular Shina is Kaina. The question over here is a Shinoi Memela, a Shina that happens on its own. You didn't do any mice to the thing. So this Shinoi, like it just grew up, and now it was once uh tle, now it's an ayol, it was once uh kaf, and now it's a shah. The point is that this Shina that happened in Mamela, that was the machlagis between Relah and Ramchanina. Rabila said it's gonna be koina, and therefore he's gonna be potter on the Dalbahe because Shalay to Vat Shalimbah. And Ramchanina said that no, he's gonna be Khayev on the Dalbahe because Shinoi was not Kaineh. This Shina was not kainah. That was the whole machelikis, Avalinian Shalume, but as it relates to what value is you're gonna have to pay for the kafal of Dalbeheh, so everyone's gonna agree. Kule Amukname Karmashan, everyone's gonna agree that he pays according to the value that it was at the Shash Geneva at the time that he stole it. Meaning, and even though you're gonna tell me, ah, how do we know about Rabila? Rabila says you're gonna be Patr on Dalbehe. So he's not Bakal talking about Dalbehe. You're telling me that we see he agrees that you're gonna pay Dalbahe, Kishash Geneva? No, you're right, he doesn't pay Dalbehe, but what about Kafel? He doesn't say anything about Kafel. So the Kafel, Mr. Maribillah would agree that you pay a Kishashai, you pay it according to the Shash Geneva. Sorry, Kafel's only by Geneva, but the point is, even Rabillah would agree that you pay it according to the Shazah Geneva, you pay it according to the time of the Geneva. And by the way, now's where we need the Pneeshua. That even this is Pashphan the Gemara, that even Arabilla asked before on the Braissa that Rab Khanina brought him. Again, Rabilla had a problem with that Braissa because he said if this Braysa is a good Braissa according to Pirab Khanina, then why does Raisa say you're gonna pay Kishasa Ganeva? If anything, you should pay the Dal the He Kishash Hamada Biddin. So if so, it doesn't sound like everyone agrees. It sounds like Rabillah is actually gonna be of the opinion that you're gonna pay the Dal the Hei Khashaza Mada Bdin. Not everyone agrees. How could the Gemara over here say Kuleama Kanay Karmashana? Everyone's gonna agree you pay like Meikara, like before, like Kishashaneva. I thought Rabilla asked a question before, assuming that you should pay Kishashamah Biddin. So that's what the Panayish says. That's not Pakhla because of Rav. Rav, that's not the Sogi over here. He was saying that because that's a different scenario where you shachted or sold it. The way we look at the pro when you stole it, where do we look at when you stole it? That's when you schechte it. That's when we look at the Shasaganevas was when you schefted it, that's when you caused the damage. And if Shinoi wasn't Kaineh, then it belonged to the gun of the whole it belonged to the original Bylam the whole time until you schechte it. And that's the Shasaganeva over there. So that was his question. It was a technical question over there, but again, it had nothing to do with Raf. And if so, Kule Ama gonna make Karmishalim. The only thing I'm like this was whether Shinoi like this, like that is gonna be Kaineh, but as it relates to what value you're gonna have to pay, as it relates to the Khalid Dalvehe, Kule, I'm gonna make Karmishalim. Both Rabila and Rachanina agree that you're going to pay the may kara like the Shasa Geneva. Diktani, how do we know that? Because the prices said, you pay the kayfel and the Daldahei, Kane Shagunov, like the time of the Geneva itself. Again, forget that technical question we had from Rabila. So lame with the tufted the Rav. So maybe this is a rayo against Rav Dalma Rav because Rap said yesterday, Karan Kane Shagonavishan. And as it relates to the Karen, you're gonna pay Kane Shagunov. According to the price it was at the time that you stole it. Tashuma Kaffel, the Shumidhei. However, as relates to the kafel and the Dada Bhe, Khashama the Bdin, you're gonna pay according to today's value. But according to Rabilah and Rahina, they seem to both agree not that way. They seem to agree, and we see from this Braissa that, and they have a Bryce of backing them up, that you're gonna pay the kafel and the Dada Bahe. Kishash Haganevo, not Kishas a motherbeddin, like Rav said. So it's this is Tiyofta and Rav says, Immara Rav or Rav explained that. No, not necessarily because t'lain can make you very simply. There's a difference if you're paying back using tlain, you're paying back using goats themselves, or you're paying back using money. If you're paying back using goats, which is what the Bryce over here is talking about, then you're gonna pay Kishashaneva, because you're paying back exactly what you stole. So you're gonna pay back the item, and that's when you're gonna pay Kadame Kar. You're gonna pay like the Shashaganeva, you stole that, you're gonna pay back that. But Damin, if you're paying back money, that's where Raf said as alofa that you're gonna have to pay Khidahash, you're gonna have to pay the Kef on the Daday according to today's value, not according to that value. And the Damim is Kishal Ahsham, it's gonna go according to the value it is right now. So it's not necessarily a ray against Raf. Rabba says Shinoi Koine Ksiva Vitanino. The fact that a shinoi is koine, the sh a shinoi, by a ganaf specifically, by the way. Ashino is always koina, but a shinoi that a ganov steals something, and then he does a shinoi in the actual product that he stole. Now he's koina it, and all he owes the person is gonna be the value, not the actual item, because now the item belongs to him. So Rabba said this idea that a shinoi by a ganam is gonna be koine, that is backed up by a pasuk, seva, metanino, and it's a Mishnah. I have a Pasuk and a Mishnah that backed this up. Siva, where's the Pasuk? Mehei Shavesakzela Ashrigazal, the Pasuk says, Matam Lever. What do I learn from Ashri Gozal? Why does the Pasuk say Ashrigazal? To teach us that in Kain Shigazal, if the item is exactly in the same form that it was at the time that you stole it, then yasir, then you have to return the actual item. But if it's not because it had a Shinoi done to it, then dummi ba'ama baislum. The only thing you're hive to him is to pay the value of it because you stole our gana, you still stole from him, you're haived to pay the value. But now the actual item you own because a shinoi was done. That's the posik that I have backing up this idea that a shinoi is kaina Tanina. Whereas the Mishnah, the Mishnah says, Hagaizaam Kailim, someone who steals wood and he builds Kaelim with the wood, Samar Vasan begat him, he steals wool and he made it into clothing. Mishan Shazak Ghazali is gonna pay according to the value of how much it was at the time of the Ghazala, but not how much it is right now, not the actual item, basically, because this Shinoi was Kaina, and he did a Shinoi. He stole it as Aitum and he made it into wood in the Khoshino Gidalamizu, and therefore he's gonna keep that. He was Koinet, and the only thing is gonna be hai is the value of what it was at the time of the gazelah. Says Gamar Inami. Another mission I have is a right to this. Loh his pick litunulai at Shitsuvai. This salah relates to the madness kahuna someone has to the coin. He has to give him racial gaz the first sharings from the sheep. So if he didn't give it to the coin, but rather lo his bik litunulay before he gave it to the kayin, ashutzavai, he died the wool before he gave it to the kain, then putr he's gonna be putting from giving it to the kind. Once he did a shinoi, once he died it, there is no more khiev to give it to the kain. Alma, what do we see? Shinoi kainah that this shinoi in his doing this shino, he was kainit, and that's how we see. We have a pasik that backs up this idea. We have two Mishnayas also that back up this idea. And Rabbah continues that Yehush, Amri Raban and the Nikni. So we just talked about a Shino that was Koine, which we have a Pasak and two Mishnayas. As it relates to Yush, though, we know what Yush is. Someone gives up hope. Someone loses something and gives up hope. So as it relates to Yush, Amri Rabban and the Nikni. So the Rabban said that it should be Kainan. By the way, over here we're talking about specifically Geneva as well. So someone stole something, and the Nigza, the one who was stolen from, he was Miyaish from it, let's say. So what about Yush? Is that Koine? If the Bailan, the owners have Yush and they gave up on it. So is the Ganov the rightful owner now? Was that Koine? Does he both does he own that product now or not? So Yesh, Amri Rabananda the Nikni. I know that the Rabbanan said that Yush is gonna be coined by Aghanov, that now he owns it. Miyu, Laya Dinan Indaresa Idaraban. Rabba's talking that I don't I know that it's kaina, I just don't know if that's a Dindarisa, or it's a Dindarabanan that Yush is gonna be Koine by A Ganov. Ida Raisa. What's the tsad that it should be Daraisa meaning to have a mitza Veda? It would be the same thing as someone finding an Aveda. That Maitsa Aveda Love Kevin the Miyash, Mara Mine, Mikameida Tasla Yade, Kani Lay. We find my Maitya Aveda, someone who finds an Aveida in a life and that he doesn't have a mitzvah Shava Saveda, but rather it's gonna belong to him because the Baylin had Yush. So why? What meaning, why does it belong to him? Now Love Kevin the Miyaiish, Mura Mina, Mikhameda Tasley Yadeh. Isn't it because the Bailan, the owners, had Yush, they gave up on finding it before it came to his own, and therefore Khanile, he's gonna be Kaineth because Yush is Kani. Hainami, so therefore, over here also by the Ganov, Kevin the Miyaiish Mara, Kanileh, because the owner gave up on it, he was Miyaish, so therefore also the Ganov was gonna be Khanet. Obviously, by the way, obviously he's gonna be haived to pay him back the value. The point is, does he own the actual item or not? Alma Kani, so therefore we see it is, and that would be on a Dareisa level. That's not to say it's Dareisa oidum. Or maybe that it's only Dharabana, because Laidamila Veda, it's not similar at all. You can't learn it from A Veda to tell me it's Darisa, because Avedu di Khi Asiliyade, and Avaida, when it came to his hand, it came to his hand the heter. He didn't do anything wrong. He didn't do an Aveira to get this item. He found it on the floor. And that's why maybe the Yosh over there is gonna be Koine Avahai. But this Ganu over here, coming to be Sura Asiliyade, since he got this item the Isir, he stole it. Therefore, Midrabanu, the Amara Banan, maybe it's only a Dindarabana, maybe it would be different. We're not gonna learn it from Aveda. And really, Yosh is not gonna be Koine, but why Midrabanan? Would it be Kaina? Even though now there are S level it wouldn't. Midrabanan. Amarabanan, nikni the rabatan would say that it should be kaine, mipne takana sashovin. Because of takana sashov, we don't want to make it too hard for people to do chuba. And if you're gonna make him return the exact item and he's not gonna have any other way out besides besides returning the exact item, then it might cause the situation to be pretty hard to do chuba. Because what if it's hard to return the exact item or whatever happened to it? The point is that maybe it's only gonna be kinda mphney takana sashov and the rabban want you to be able to do chuba, and that's why they said that if you need to return it and you can't return the geneva itself, you could pay for it, and you could pay for the thing itself, and that's why we're gonna say that Yush is kaine. You are coinet, you were kinda the actual item. That's why you only you're only gonna be high to pay back the value of Riyaice. Um, Rabysev argues on everything and he says no. Yush ain't a kaine, but I feel the rabban. Rabbiasiv says that no, Yush is not koine, even on another Rabbanan level. So we have Muchlikist right now between Rabbah and Rbyyasiv. Rabba says, I know he started off with Shinoi. Shinoi is kinda 100%, it's a pasak, it's too mishnais. But as it relates to Yush, is Yush kinda by Gineva? So Rabbah said, I know it is koine. My question is, it's is it coined Yyush by Geneva? Is it kind of the Raisa or the Rabbanan? Rabi Yasef argues on Rabba and Rabbiyev says no, Yush is not kind of Bahlaw, not even mid-rabbanan. So it's like Rabbias of the Rabbah So Rabi Yasef now asks on Rabbah, Rabbah that you say that Yush is kinda 100%. I'm just not sure the Raisa Diraban. And Rabbiesef is asking him, Rabbi, hold! Again, that it's not kinda bakh, not even mid-rabban. So Asi Ras of the Rabba, Rabi San Rabbah, the Mishnah says, Mishnah later on. Ghazal Khamit the Overlah of Pesach. Someone stole Khmaits before Pesach. And then Pesach passes. What's that called? Khamitha Overlava Pesach. That's Osser Behano. So before Pesach, this was a Gishmach of bagel, it was worth something. After Pesach, it's worth nothing. It's sorry, I know, you're not even able to have an offer from it. So he stole Khmaits. The overlava pesah. The Allah is going to be Aimer Lloyd, the Ghazlun, can give it back to the Nigzal and say, Haresh al Khalhanach, take your bagel back. Here, I stole a bagel, I'm giving back a bagel. That's it. Haresh al Khalafanaha, and he was Mekhaim, his mitzvah of the Heshiv's like Zayla Shirgazal. Says Gemara, the hai, but what do we see from here? As soon as the time of Isra came, meaning as soon as Eraf Pesah Saiz Malachhi was Khamitz kicks in, so as soon as that happens, by the miyash, for sure the order is gonna be miyash from his bagel. Why? Because at this point it's worthless, because it's Asir Behana, and it has no value, and therefore for sure at that point he has Yush. So Visa could die to if you're gonna tell me that Yosh Khanna, Yush alone of the Baylam is gonna be Kaina, and the Godzlin is gonna own it now, then I'm my I'm a Harish al Khalavanaha. So why is he allowed to return it after Pesach by handing back the bagel? If anything, he should be able to he should have to pay him the full value. Because if you're gonna tell me that Yush was Kainah, so who's the real owner of the bagel now? It's the godslin. Now the bagel was worthless, so why does he get off free by giving back the bagel that's worthless basically? Why is he able to say Arish al-Khalafanaha when it's Usrba Nah? If he was Kaineth, it's really his now. So what's he gonna be to pay back? He has to make hold the person he stole from. So he holds he owes him a monetary number. He owes him a money amount, he owes him the value of what he stole before Pesach, because again, he was for sure, the bilein was for sure many aish from it. So if you're gonna tell me the ghostlin was kind, and now it belongs to him, why can he say harish al-Khala vanah? You shouldn't have to pay the full amount back to the owner, so I'm saying Rabbi answered that no. I'll tell you why. It's different in this case because Kikamina no when did I say that Yosh is gonna be Kaineth and the Ghazlan is gonna own the go for the item? That's only true in a situation where Zemishyash is the right to license, where the bailin has Yush, but working along together with that, the Ghazlan wants to be coined. So his rot's in and his wanting to be coined works along with the Yush of the Bailam, and that's gonna be the situation where he's gonna be coined. However, high, this case is very different because Zemisiaish, vizet ain't to license. This case of the bagel before Pesach, he has the Khamit, and it's a case of Yush, yeah, the Bailam has Miyash because it's right before Pesach and it's gonna be Asumana. But the point is Vizet Ainar Ziknas. The Ghazlan doesn't want to be coined because as soon as he's coined, he knows that he's gonna lose out because he can't pay back this exact homit that's gonna become Asamana. So if he wants to be coined right now, so yeah, he's gonna be kind, he's gonna have to pay back money. So he doesn't want to do that because he wants to get off scot-free and he wants to get back, and that's why he's able to. Because again, Rabba would just tell Ribesu, it's different in this case, because although Yush is coined, that's only true when the Ghazlan wants to be coined, but when he doesn't want to be kind, so the Baylam's Yush is not gonna force it into his own Rushus, and that's why in that situation, he's gonna be able to say, Hare Shil Khalil Fanah. A baye asked Rabbah the following Karbanoi, Vilayha Gazal. The Pasik says they have to bring a karban, let's say. So it says karbanoi. Im Ayle karbanoi, the pasik says, Veleh gazal. So we learn from there that you can't bring a carbon that was stolen. You're not allowed to bring it, meaning it's not gonna work. It's not gonna work to pass you with your heav. So, sazigmar ikalami. What exactly is the case? What are we talking about? What carbon was stolen? If we're talking about that you can't bring a behemah as a carbon before the yush, before the owner had yush of that animal, so lamalikra. Why do I need a posi? Pushito. It's posh it that it's not right for the misbehav, and it's posh it that it's not gonna work as your carbon because it's not yours. It doesn't belong to you. There was no yush yet. So I'll have a chosh. What are you gonna tell me? So obviously we're talking about a case, because again, there has to be a khidh. So what are we talking about? So the case we're talking about is the akharyush after the owner is already had yush. But what do we see? Shma'mi no, yesh like we clearly see that yush is not koina, because we just said that karbana has to be your carbon. Villaya gazan, it can't be the guzzle. But if yush is kayin, then it's really your carbon, and what would be the issue with bring with bringing it? So Abai asks Rabah that it seems to be that Yush is not Koineh, says Akmar Amaly Rava. Rabbah turns to Abai and says, No, I'll tell you for the Tamikh, according to your reasoning, that you had to explain the posak that it's talking about Dafka case of the after yush, because otherwise, what would be the kiddish? That's basically what you said, and you're trying to prove to me from there that Yush is not koine, says Akmar Amali Rav, Rav will tell Tabaya, Tameh, according to you the way you just explained it. Hadatanyo, what do you how are you gonna explain the following brace of Mishkovay Vilayagazo? The Allahu is ba' isov, he's Mithamitamas Mishkov, whatever he sits on, whatever he lays on becomes tame, but that's only true Mishkhov if it belongs to him. Vilaya Gazal, but not if it's stolen. Says Aqmar Kidami. What is the case that we're saying if he stole this bed or this chair that he's sitting on, that it's not gonna become tame? What is the case? Does anyone not hold this? Does anyone hold that a shinoi maisa changing something in the actual gufada item is not gonna be Kaine? No one holds that. Meaning everyone agrees that once he actually does a shina misa, he changes something in the gufada item, for sure he's gonna own it now. And 100% it belongs to him, and that's gonna be Tamne again. Even the sheetas we saw before, no one argues about this case. The whole machine we had in the beginning of the daf was only about a shinoi without a maisa. A shina that happened in Memela, like it was once a Talent, it grew up to become uh Ayo, but the point was that nothing you didn't change anything, it happened in Memela. But a Shinai Maisa that you actually changed something by Adai, everyone agrees that it's gonna be Kaina 100%. Meika the manda omar, shina misa like no, there's no such manda ummar. Everyone holds it's gonna be kinda, and therefore, why wouldn't it become Tameh if the Zub sits on it? So obviously, what do you have to tell me? Ella Maïsah al the Maymar. So according to your logic, again, we're working in your logic, that if it said that, there would be no khidish. Ella Maislah al the Maymar, the Gaza Mishkam the Havri. So you have to say that he stole a chair from his friend. He stole a bed, a mishka from his friend, whatever the case was. But either way, once we see that that's the way we're explaining that, Bryce is so khanami. So I'll say the same darah, I'll explain it the same derech over here, the Ghaza carbon, the Favre, that he stole his friend's carbon, meaning once his friend already was makdish, this carbon for them is beach had to bring as a carbon. Now he steals that carbon and he brings it. So we're come ashmalan, then it's not gonna work because it's not your carbon. Vilaya Gazlan, that if it's stolen, and by the way, what's the khidish? Gayh, obviously it doesn't work, it's not your carbon. The kiddish is Rashi said that it doesn't even work for the first person. You would have had a how many to think that maybe this Ganov, this gazlin, is bringing this carbon that belongs to Ruven. It's still 100% Shah to Ruven. So obviously it's not gonna work for Shimon. That's not the kiddosh over here. But maybe it should even work for Ruven because this stealer is bringing Ruven's carbon. So maybe it should be Miraza for Ruven. Kamash Malan, that's the Khiddish carbon of Gazal, that it's not even gonna work for Ruven. We're gonna hold it here because the next Sugio gets deep into the Afsam Kazain. Good wah.