83. Is Your Child's Gut Wrecking Their Teeth, Immunity, and Brain, with Dr. Elisa Song

The only pediatric doctor formulated probiotic and supplement for kids: 

microbiome-magic 

The test for your child's microbiome: 

https://www.tinyhealth.com/

If you've ever done everything "right" for your kids, clean eating, good hygiene, regular checkups, and still watched them struggle with cavities, ear infections, big tonsils, or just getting sick over and over again, this conversation is going to stop you in your tracks. Because the answer isn't in the toothbrush. It isn't in the antibiotic. It starts in the gut, and it shows up everywhere.

What You'll Learn in This Episode:

• Why tooth decay in children is not a hygiene problem but a sign that the immune system and microbiome are out of balance, and what to do about it.
• How the oral microbiome and gut microbiome are in constant conversation, and why disrupting one affects the other, and ultimately the whole child.
• What early warning signs like mouth breathing, enlarged tonsils, frequent ear infections, and bad breath are actually telling you about your child's gut health.
• Which foundational lab tests Dr. Song recommends for children and teenagers, including why fasting insulin and cholesterol are two markers most pediatricians aren't checking but probably should be.
• The three microbiome champion food categories most kids are missing, and the key nutrients almost every child needs more of, even the healthy eaters.

About Dr. Elisa Song: Dr. Elisa Song is a Stanford, NYU, and UCSF-trained integrative pediatrician, pediatric functional medicine expert, and the founder of Healthy Kids Happy Kids. She is the author of the Healthy Kids Happy Kids book and the creator of a clinically backed pediatric supplement line designed to fill both the nutritional and microbiome gaps in children's diets. She is also the Chief Medical Officer for Tiny Health, a microbiome testing company with age-appropriate reference ranges for babies and children. Dr. Song has spent over two decades helping families prevent and reverse chronic childhood illness by getting to the root.

Key Insights:

One of the most important reframes in this conversation is that cavities are not a brushing problem. They are a terrain problem. When the oral microbiome is off, when pathogenic bacteria are overpowering the beneficial ones, decay follows. And the oral microbiome doesn't exist in isolation. It's in constant crosstalk with the gut, the immune system, the sinuses, and even the developing brain. So when a child has a mouthful of cavities despite a health-conscious home, the question to ask isn't what are they eating. It's what is their body doing with it.

Dr. Song and Dr. Carver also dig into something that doesn't get nearly enough airtime in conventional pediatrics, which is that chronic childhood symptoms like enlarged tonsils, mouth breathing, frequent ear infections, and recurring congestion are immune signals, not just developmental quirks. They are the body asking for help. And in many cases, the gut microbiome is the place to start looking for answers.

Perhaps the most powerful moment in this episode is the conversation around autoimmunity starting decades before a diagnosis. Research shows that autoimmune antibody rates in teenagers have been rising steadily since the 1980s. These kids don't have a disease yet, but their immune system is already raising its hand. The encouraging news, and both Dr. Song and Dr. Carver are clear about this, is that we can course correct. Supporting the gut microbiome, optimizing nutrition, and calming the nervous system are not just wellness trends. They are genuinely preventive medicine.

Resources Mentioned: [Placeholder: Add any books, tools, or links mentioned in this episode, including Dr. Song's book Healthy Kids Happy Kids and the Tiny Health microbiome test.]

Connect With Dr. Elisa Song: 

Website: healthyhappykids.com 

Instagram: @healthykids_happykids

The only pediatric doctor formulated probiotic and supplement for kids: 

microbiome-magic 

Test your child's microbiome: 

https://www.tinyhealth.com/

FREE How to Reverse Gum Disease in 6 Weeks: 

ReverseGumDisease

Connect With Dr. Rachaele Carver: 

Join the 6-Week Gum Disease Course

Book Your Personalized Consultation

Subscribe and Leave a Review: If this episode spoke to something you've been carrying as a parent, please share it with a mom who needs to hear it, and if you haven't already, subscribe and leave a review so more families can find this conversation.

Disclaimer: This podcast is for educational purposes only.  Information discussed is not intended for diagnosis, curing, or prevention of any disease and is not intended to replace advice given by a licensed healthcare practitioner.  Opinions from guests are their own, and this podcast does not condone or endorse opinions made by guests.  This podcast and its guests may have direct or indirect financial interests associated with products mentioned.

Transcript

Why Oral Health Is Whole Health

Dr. Rachaele Carver 0:00

Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of The Root of the Matter. I am your host, Dr. Rachel Carver, and today I am very honored to have Dr. Elisa Song, who is a holistic pediatrician, probably the most well-known holistic pediatrician in our country. She's got great books and supplements and has really gotten the information out there about how important our microbiome and our immune system is to create health. And where better to start than our youngest population of the children. When we get our kids off on the right foot, their entire lives are just so much easier. You know, you've heard me talk a lot about airway, what I think is the root cause of decay. And so I'm really excited for Dr. Song's perspective on the immune system, on the microbiome, and how we can build that resilience in our kids. So, Dr. Song, welcome. And again, thank you so much for taking time in your busy schedule to come and share your wisdom with us.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

Thank you so much. I mean, what an important topic to really talk about oral health and the oral microbiome because that is just getting talked about now, more recently. Uh, and I feel like, you know, finally the gut microbiome is here. And so now it's time for the oral microbiome too.

Dr. Rachaele Carver 1:14

Absolutely. Like we've got to make that connection, right? We're one body for some reason, right? We've cut the head off from the rest of the body. We don't Yeah, exactly. I guess just the mouth, right? We we consider the head part of it, but somehow the mouth and the eyes, right, are are are different somehow. Um, so as I've been teaching um, you know, listeners here that I believe when we're having decay, especially in kids, and I often see a lot in my holistic moms come and they were like, you know, I'm doing the nutrition thing right, you know, I don't, and they're so frustrated because they feel like they're doing things right, yet the kids have all this decay. So I often say, listen, it's not about the brushing and the flossing of fluoride. This is a deeper immune system reaction. Every tooth is its own organ, right? It's the same blood pumping from everywhere. So I I kind of see this deep connection between nervous system, digestion system, and immune system. And I think it's kind of like this tri when we get imbalance in this kind of systems and how they interact is when we tend to have an overgrowth, right, of the pathogenic bacteria, the whole environment in the mouth as well as the gut shifts, right? I mean, it's the same tissue that lines our mouth that's lining the gut. So maybe you can tell us a little bit about the microbiome and and how our digestion and immune system

Your Body Is A Microbiome Ecosystem

Dr. Rachaele Carver 2:30

might be related.

SPEAKER_00 2:31

Well, I think the the first place to just make sure people are aware of is that when we're talking about the microbiome, we have microbiomes everywhere. And they're all unique depending on where they are. So your mouth has its own microbiome, which is of course the very start to your digestive tract. And then we're one kind of long hollow tube connected. But the mouth microbiome looks different than the small intestinal microbiome, which looks different than the large intestinal microbiome. And we also have a microbiome around our hearts and our eyeballs and our brain has its own microbiome. And so understanding that we are not just human cells, but this collection of trillions of microorganisms living in symbiosis. And, you know, I love that you said the word ecosystem because we really do need to think about our bodies as an ecosystem, allowing microorganisms, you know, human cells, bacterial cells to live in harmony if we have the right combinations. And it's also not just a matter of the microbes that are present. It's the entire ecosystem that and that allows these microbiome either flourish or not. And so, you know, just like um, you know, if you're thinking about growing a rose garden, you wouldn't just think that the more rose, you know, seeds that you throw into the ground, the healthier your rose garden is gonna be. That's actually not the case. It's not about more is better, it's about the right soil that can then nourish the right fit of which roses grow in this ecosystem. So it really is all connected. And for me as a pediatrician, um, I always go back to the gut microbiome because there's so much evidence now on how a baby's developing gut microbiome from birth, which is impacted by her mother's or his mother's microbiome, even father's microbiome before conception, and of course how they were born and and how they're fed in those early years, can really shape how their immune system develops and take a path towards allergy or inflammation versus immune tolerance and calmly interacting with the world. And the way their gut microbiome develops in those early stages also interacts with their developing brain and can inform how those brain connections are formed and even increase the risk later on if there is disruption to the microbiome early on for things like ADHD and anxiety and mental health concerns, which become a a much bigger concern for parents as our kids get older. Um, in the early stages, it's all about their immune health. They're getting sick all the time, and you know, or they have eczema or asthma or allergies are starting. Um, and then as they get older, we start to s have more concerns about their focus and their attention and their and their anxiety and stress levels. In those early stages, the the most important um category, genus or or family of microbes is bifidobacteria, for babies at least. And that bifidobacteria helps to train the immune system, helps to train the the brain, helps to train their metabolic processes. And of course, there's an intimate crosstalk between the

Beyond Probiotics: Build The Terrain

SPEAKER_00 6:00

oral microbiome and the gut microbiomes. Uh, we need to make sure that all of this is happening in tandem.

Dr. Rachaele Carver 6:06

Absolutely. Um, and I I want to re-emphasize kind of what you said about it's not just about the bugs, right? I mean, you know, maybe five to ten years ago we were all about the probiotics, probiotics, probiotics, which is group, which is good, but now we're seeing, well, they don't really colonize, right? So what do we need to oh now we need prebiotics, right? And postbiotics because that's we need to create the environment so those bugs can flourish. So if we're using probiotics, we also want to give them right the food and the, you know, all of the nutrients they need to thrive so they can colonize. So I think that's shifted my way of thinking too and in treating this early decay. What do you, I mean, for me as a dentist, decay to me is a sign that the microbiome is off. Are there other signs? Yeah, because sometimes the decays between the teeth, which you can't see clinically, right? You only see on an x-ray, or once it's already so big that it's broken through the enamel. Are there other signs that the microbiome might be off earlier? Because, you know, and even some kids, they don't even go to the dentist till they're four. They might already have a whole, you know, mouthful because some pediatricians think it's stupid that the ADA says go to the dentist at age one. Parents say, Well, what are you gonna do? Well, we're gonna make them comfortable in the environment. We're going to educate you, the caregivers, right? That's the most important thing, you know, of how to create this healthy, healthy mouth. Tell me about maybe some early signs

Early Clues: Breath And Mouth Breathing

Dr. Rachaele Carver 7:25

that that um the microbiome is off.

SPEAKER_00 7:27

Yeah. Well, I would say, you know, for you know, early on, if we're talking specifically about the oral microbiome, we also have to remember that, you know, your your mouth is connected to your sinuses and you know, it's it's all part of the same system. And so some signs that they're that there may be something to look at in the oral microbiome would be, you know, if you're if your um babies are mouth breathing early on, or if they have bad breath. I mean, babies shouldn't and little kids shouldn't have bad breath. I would say from an immune standpoint, you know, if they're always congested, if their ears are always seem full, or they're getting frequent ear infections, if they just tend to have a lot of lymph nodes that are reactive, which can be normal, but then you think, well, what are they reacting to? Because your lymph nodes are part of your immune system. And um, you know, in those early stages too, um, you know, babies when they're born, they don't really have much tonsil tissue that you can see. But as they get grow and up to about maybe six, seven years of life, their tonsils become bigger and bigger and bigger, which is a normal process. And then they start to shrink, shrink, shrink. And most of most of us as adults who, if we didn't have our tonsils taken out when we were young, you can barely see them, right? Or you should be able to barely see them, right? Um, and so when I see kids with really large tonsils, I also wonder, well, what is going on in their immune system? And that also really has to do with how their microbiome is interacting with the outside world. If we think about the fact that, you know, up to 80% of our immune cells lie in our gut, we actually have these tonsil-like patches that line our entire GI tract. So we think, oh, our tonsils are here, and a lot of people think that they're useless and they're just kind of extra tissue there. But we have these tonsil-like patches that are called the gut-associated lymphoid tissue or galt that line our entire GI tract. And that that lymphoid tissue along our GI tract interacts with the outside world. You know, as I said before, we're one long hollow tube. So everything we eat, all the air and the toxins that we breathe in, the medications that we're taking in pass through our gut and interact with those immune cells. And those immune cells decide what our immune system should do with it. And um, over time, if we're faced with a lot of inflammatory factors or foods that are perhaps the same diet and more inflammatory foods, our immune system eventually starts to react and create simmering inflammation, which can then show up as chronic congestion or um ear infections or enlarged tonsils. So no matter what's going on up here, we still have to look at what's going on in the gut microbiome and how the gut and the immune system are connecting. Um, you know, kids who, I mean, kids do tend to get more viral infections early on in life. That's a part of their immune training. We don't want them to never get sick. We'd like them to get measured illnesses and have the, you know, I use my kind of integrative holistic pediatric tools to help them get better faster without needing um, you know, pharmaceutical medications. But um, but but if they're getting sick more frequently than maybe their their siblings or their peers, and it's taking them a lot longer to recover, that's their gut microbiome not interacting well. We know that the health of the gut microbiome can reduce the frequencies and severities of viral and respiratory infections in kids. And so, you know, if your kids are getting sick all the time, you're like, what's going on? You have to look at their gut microbiome. And then, of course, if they've ever had antibiotics for anything, unfortunately, that was a pretty quick disruptor of not just the gut microbiome, but of course the oral microbiome that's developing. And that can that imbalance, you know, that shift in the composition of beneficial bacteria versus abnormal pathogenic bacteria is what we call gut dysbiosis and even oral microbiome dysbiosis if you measure that. Um, and and that can lead to an increased risk for infections, imbalance, chronic inflammation, perhaps even down the road of autoimmune

Antibiotics Dysbiosis And Autoimmunity Risk

SPEAKER_00 11:50

reactions happening.

Dr. Rachaele Carver 11:51

Definitely. I mean, I I think autoimmunity can can start, you know, in childhood as well if you have a certain, you know, genetic predispositions, if you don't change the environment, all that. Uh I see it's on both sides of my family. I see my kids have, you know, no genetics is only a piece of it, but they don't have great detox enzymes. So I've always, and I know when they were little and I was able to control their diet environment a little bit more, you know, they'd get sick maybe 24 hours and they'd bounce right back. Teenagers with their terrible diets, you know, all of their products that, you know, it doesn't matter what mom says. I find them no matter how many times I tried to clean their rooms out, they somehow magically reappear and they're sick a lot longer. Just they have lost a lot of that resilience, you know. And I keep trying to tell them, hey, you know, they think they want to have, you know, children when they're young because I'm so old because I had them when I was 30. So, well, you know, it's gonna take a long time to clean up all those uh, you know, sprays that you're so you gotta kind of really think about that now. But, you know, again, they're they're teenagers. But but that's why, you know, sometimes we feel like we all of a sudden, you know, just just got this autoimmune condition when no, that's something that's been building a long, long time is the the body is brilliant, it's resilient, it it knows how to how to work properly, but it just reaches that tipping point, right? Where the bucket is full and it overflows and it feels like all of a sudden, right, I have these symptoms. Like with me, I all of a sudden had eczema after my second daughter was born. I mean, I was building, I had acne as a kid, I was on all sorts of antibiotics and acutan, I mean, all this stuff that I really, you know, permanently altered my gut. But but I was young enough, you know, had enough stem cells or whatever, is it wasn't till you know I was in with two children, stressful, depleted, that you know, these symptoms finally, you know, arose. But again, the buildup was happening a lot sooner. So if you suspect, like, you know, I love what you said about the sinuses, the tonsils, right? We see so many kids with enlarged tonsils, and most pediatricians would be like, it's fine, it's fine. I'm like, it's very common, but that doesn't make it normal, right? This is this is your immune system is saying something. So are you mouth breathing, right? And that's huge for proper development of the nervous system. When we're mouth breathing, we're in sympathetic all the time. And that that's just the you know, fire to allow inflammation to continue. So and that frequent ear infections, huge too. So many kids have the retruded lower jaw, right? And it may not be super obvious, but constant ear infections tell me that there's an airway issue is too small, right? So they're mouth breathing, that we need to, and we have so many great devices now that even in infants, right, the special kinds of pacifiers that help grow the jaw, help promote nasal breathing. We talk about that with breastfeeding all the time. Yes, the breast milk is great, but even more so, that properly develops nasal breathing, swallowing pattern, like there's so much more benefit than just having having the breast milk.

SPEAKER_00 14:46

Yeah. Well, and I and I really I just want to emphasize what you said too about you know how autoimmunity really does start sometimes decades before the actual clinical disease presents. I mean, we know this if your if your doc or your pediatrician checks autoimmune antibodies, I mean, there is a very common, unfortunately, general autoimmune antibody called an ANA or anti-nuclear antibody. And unfortunately, you know, over the decades, there was a you know research that looked at these ANA positive rates in different age groups from the 80s to the 90s, and then again from the 90s to the early 2000s. And the age group with the fastest rise in rates of positive ANA levels were our teenagers, our 12 to 19-year-olds. Um, you know, the rates doubled from the early 80s to the 90s and then tripled. And they didn't have autoimmune disease. I now, you know, for my teenagers, I do like to check their ANA levels at some point. I just want to know is your immune system holding up a little, you know, little flag saying, pay attention to me? You know, it's like the canary in the coal mine. And instead of um, you know, yes, it's alarming to see that, but instead of looking at that with fear, we know that we can reverse that. And to reverse that positive ANA level by supporting your child's gut and immune system connection, optimizing their gut microbiome and and eliminating that ANA antibody is one of the most preventive things you can do. And that's where sometimes, you know, for kids, it's it's seeing it on paper that makes it a little bit more real, unfortunately. Just like with their their blood sugar regulation. I mean, so many teens, um, you know, just I mean, I and I'm gonna say this is I'm sure this is true for adults as well, but I don't do blood work on adults, but just with the the easy access to a sugar load that we've we've never had before, with, you know, a Starbucks on every other, you know, street corner and you know, boba teas and you know, all uh all of these um, you know, sugar laden drinks that go down so much faster than, you know, if you take a there's a mocha frappuccino, something or other at Starbucks that has 55 grams of added sugar, which is about um like 17 teaspoons, I think, of added sugar. Couldn't spoon in that amount of sugar that quickly. I mean, it would take you a while to just and you'd feel gross after a while. Well, that drink, you could probably down in in, you know, under five minutes easily, right? And so, you know, I see so many teenagers with um um, you know, fasting insulins and fasting blood sugar, not in the outright diabetes range, but way above what would I would be considered, you know, what would be considered optimal. And so, and that that also plays a huge role in what microbes want to live in your body, in your brain, in your mouth, in your gut, which then, you know, of course, you know, as we said, there's the your microbiome has ripple effects on every system in your body.

Testing Kids: Stool First, Then Blood

Dr. Rachaele Carver 18:03

Absolutely. So we've mentioned a little bit of testing. Let's let's rewind now and back to the the younger kids, right? If they're having this congestion, large tonsils, would you, I mean, you kind of know because you have experience, but maybe if the mom says, well, I want to know for sure, what kind of testing are you doing, maybe in the the younger age group? And then I'd love to know the teenagers, other things that you liked. You mentioned a couple, but love to know what kind of testing that you do on the younger kids.

SPEAKER_00 18:31

I always start with a stool test and you know, the a gut micro, not just like a stool culture that you can get at a at a conventional lab, but a functional stool analysis that looks at your gut microbiome composition and also their function. The gold standard is quickly moving to using metagenomic testing, moving away from cultures, moving away from PCR testing, because that just gives a little tiny slice of what's in the microbiome. When we use metagenomics data, we can we can identify pretty much every single microorganism that actually has been sequenced genetically. And then we can also look at their genes and see, well, what is their functional capacity? Because for instance, I mentioned bifidobacteria. Bifidobacteria is the most important microbe in the early stages of life, you know, in the first, you know, thousand um days, that first three and a half years of life, it's a predominant microbial uh species. But if they're not producing a short-time fatty acid called acetate, if they don't have those genes, then you may have a lot of them, but they're not doing what they're supposed to be doing. Or, you know, do they have the capacity to make vitamins for you? In fact, our microbes make a lot of our vitamins, like our folate and our B12, or neurotransmitters, you know, bifidobacterium can make GABA, which is a very calming neurotransmitter. We can see patterns of disruption in an infant's microbiome that is linked with having sleep problems or an increased risk for colic symptoms. So, what parent who has a baby who is not sleeping or is fussy night and day doesn't want to know that answer because once we know what the imbalance is, we can correct it. You know, we we actually can optimize their microbiome. So I always start with the stool test. And the stool test I use, I mean, full disclosure, I'm chief medical officer for tiny health, but tiny health is the only microbiome test right now in the market that has reference ranges that are appropriate for babies and children. Um, and it spans the lifespan. So the other, you know, the other beauty of the tiny health testing is even for, let's say, for moms, we know our microbiomes shift, you know, depending on our stage in life, you know, premenopause, perimenopause, post-menopause. So all those reference ranges are appropriate. And sometimes with infants, that's all we're doing because it can be challenging to get blood work done. Now, sometimes I do want to get blood work done though. You know, if a baby has really, you know, has pretty severe eczema, then I want to check, you know, some blood tests. Um, if they are getting sick frequently, then I'll check some blood tests. Now, the foundational blood tests, I mean the core are going to be a complete blood count. I'm looking to make sure they're not anemic. And I'm looking specifically also at the size of their um red uh red blood cells to see um there's something called an MCV. If it's on the higher side, that tells me, oh, maybe this baby needs, or child or teenager needs more folate or B4. If they have very small red blood cells, it typically means they need more iron. So I just I look at that to the CBC, and then I look for the most common nutrient deficiencies in kids. So a ferritin, which is your iron stores, a red blood cell zinc. Zinc is especially important for any lining, like your gut lining or your lung lining if you have um, you know, your bronchioles, if you have asthma, your skin barrier if you have eczema. So RBC zinc, a red blood cell magnesium, and a vitamin D. And now through Quest you can actually measure an omega check, which is an omega-3, omega-6 fatty acid profile. So those are the most common nutrient insufficiencies or deficiencies that I when I'm getting blood work, those are must. Because when you're trying to help a child or a teenager resolve any health issue, they have to be nutritionally sound. I mean, you need to optimize your nutrients. Otherwise, you're just trying to, you know, rebuild on a shaky foundation. So the gut microbiome and nutritional status are the foundations. As they get older, you know, and depending on what else is going on with them, I typically do check a full thyroid panel at some point because your thyroid also is another, it's it is um probably sensitive to environmental toxins that we're all exposed to. So that's something that early on, if there's an issue with a thyroid or even in teenage years, I want to know because that can affect cognitive development and performance. It can affect your mood, it can affect your sleep, your metabolic health. So that would be the full panel, which includes the thyroid stimulating hormone free T4, free T3, and reverse T.

Thyroid Conversion Needs Gut Support

Dr. Rachaele Carver 23:15

Which is important. I I just want to interrupt you for a sec because sometimes most testing, they just test TSH. Then what when we're talking about the microbiome, what's really important is you could have your thyroid normal, however, you may not convert that T4 to T3 because we need, guess what we need, right? We need the gut microbiome, we need the liver, all that functioning properly. We need to have the proper nutrients, right? To be able to do that conversion. So sometimes if you don't look at those free levels, you're missing a lot of the picture. And a lot, I think a lot of thyroid disease can go unnoticed, right? And it's not as simple as just giving you the free T3, right? We also do want to do that work on why aren't you converting, right? So this is why understanding these nutrients and trying to get that balance is so important. So sorry, I just want to make that.

SPEAKER_00 24:02

No, so important. Because it is true. So what I'm talking about is, you know, and what we're discussing is really what labs do we want to get from that functional medicine standpoint and and also, you know, what are the optimal lab values? You know, for instance, you know, for when kids are, I mean, even in middle school, but for sure in high school, I'd like to get the labs fasting, which is harder as, you know, for a baby, little kid, a fasting lab order can be really hard. Um, you know, because your baby's kids can wake up hangry and you're like, I can't, there's no way I'm gonna go to the lab, you know, without having fed them. But when they're older, they have a little more reserve on their body. And so then I do like to check a fasting glucose, which is usually part of my comprehensive metabolic panel, which looks at kidney function and liver function as well, with a fasting insulin and a hemoglobin A1C. Now, hemoglobin A1C is a is your average blood sugar, you know, over the past however, you know, month. It's it's your average. So when you have kids who are having, you know, a lot of high blood sugars and then a lot of crashes, the average can look perfect. And I rarely have a child until they're later on in their teenage years, you know, have elevated hemoglobin A1Cs. So, but I do, I just I get that, you know, just just to get that. But what the what usually is more telling is their fasting insulin, which is not common practice in conventional pediatrics. Now, a fasting insulin tells you, well, how hard is your pancreas working to release insulin even overnight when your child hasn't had anything to eat to keep their blood sugar stable and normal. And that fasting insulin overnight, when your body is not exposed to any outright sugar that you've eaten, should be five or under. Nor the normal range, you know, on a conventional lab is considered under 18. I have so many kids who are at a 15 or a 17, and sometimes even outright. I have one child who was at a, you know, at a, I think a 36 and, you know, very high fasting insulin. So their body, because their their blood sugar is um, you know, because their body feels like their blood sugar is high all the time, their pain crease is working overtime. So they're not technically considered diabetes, right? And I have referred that like that one kiddo with the high fasting insulin, and I repeated it to make sure it was accurate, sent them to the pediatric endocrinologist and said, well, your hemoglobin A1C is fine, your fasting glucose is fine, so there's no problem. Well, that there is a problem. Your pancreas is saying there's a problem. And if we wait too long, then then your child will develop outright or can develop outright type 2 diabetes. So this is all about seeing those signs to say, well, how can we course correct before there's a problem? So I do like to check that. I'll check a fasting, you know, lipid panel, which is an interesting one because, you know, we're so, you know, ingrained in the conventional world. Cholesterol is bad for you. Well, cholesterol is essential for brain development. It's also essential for sex hormones. And so um, I am looking for, all right, if it's really high, then I look at look twice. But for a child, I want their cholesterol to be over 130. I mean, I've I've even my adult functional medicine um doctor friends, they also um say, like, even for adults, you know, for cognitive performance, over 130 is ideal. But I see a lot of kids, especially with any neurodevelopmental concerns, um, whether you know, they're on the autism spectrum or, you know, with ADHD, your cholesterol levels might be, you know, 90 or or to me, way too low. There is no too low number on the conventional test. You just see like over, you know, over 200 is considered abnormal. But to me, that's way too um low because we know how important for the brain cholesterol is. And then, you know, if they have those big tonsils, I do want to do my due diligence and check a respiratory environmental allergy panel and a food allergy panel just to see are there, you know, you know, desmite allergies that are contributing. You know, what are some of the things that are contributing that we may not be aware of unless

Sugar, Insulin, And Why Cholesterol Matters

SPEAKER_00 28:26

we test?

Dr. Rachaele Carver 28:26

It's so important. And and I love that point. I I'm always trying to drive that home too about cholesterol. Like it lines every cell in our body. We need to have, you know, in order to bring nutrients in and to get the toxins out, right? We have to have that healthy cell membrane. So it's interesting to note that the neurologic stuff, yeah, they don't have enough cholesterol. That's why, you know, one of the main side effects of statin drugs, right, is dementia, you know, where like that's you know, it just goes hand in hand. So and we know the studies prove that the higher your cholesterol is um as an older individual, you they tend to live longer. You know, we need to kind of yeah, it's slowly getting out there, even though the evidence is. Like eggs, yeah, eggs, eggs are not evil. No, eat some butter, it's okay, everyone. Yeah. Yeah, it's the it's the it's the polyunsaturated fats that become, you know, rancid from processing, right? Those that those are the the the problematic ones, which, you know, when when it was told to us back in the 70s, right, that fat was bad, that's what happened, right? And that's why, like you said, you saw the the the tripling of the auto antibodies and all that going up because the diet just changed so radically and we're seeing so I I love what you're saying that you know we tend to think of some of these illnesses as childhood illnesses and no big deal, whatever. But like you said, we're setting the stage for adult health and wellness. And so it's important to to note these, sort these things early. And it can be challenging, right? My younger daughter, she is petrified. When she was one, she ran these really, really high fevers. And she had they drove drew her blood every single day. And her neutrophils went down to zero by the end of the week. So they sent us to the cancer clinic.

SPEAKER_00 30:06

My gosh.

Dr. Rachaele Carver 30:07

It was so scary. By Monday, she had totally rebounded to normal. So they're like, I don't know. But so now to this day, she has PTSD from being stuck with needles at such a young age. So sometimes it can be hard to get some of that that blood work. And and even with my kids, the stool testing. Sometimes I'll do an organic acid test because it's urine. At least for my kids, that's been a little bit easier to get them because we can see kind of what's going on in their metabolism.

SPEAKER_00 30:32

I I love the um, I love urine organic acid testing because it gives such a and that is something that, you know, for for children, younger children, if there is anophobia or um, you know, hesitation around blood work, the organic acid test can give a really good snapshot of nutritional status. There are gut microbiome markers there, there's detoxification markers and mitochondrial markers. So even, you know, a B vitamin and methylation and markers. And so it is a good snapshot. You know, I tell parents and kids, I can't, it can help guide, but I don't know if, you know, I can't tell if you're, you know, how much supplementation you might need. Because sometimes it's surprising how low kids are in in their zinc levels or their vitamin D levels. Or and so that can be one thing. The the tiny health test is actually, I think, uh an easier sell for poop tests. Cause once kids get older, I mean they don't want anything to do with poop, right? And it's easy when they're in diapers. Yes, yes. But um, but the tiny health test, it's just it's a it's um it's a q-tip swab. So if there's I mean, I tell kids, look, this sounds gross, but if you ever have any poop on the toilet paper when you're wiping, you literally can just swab that and then you send it off, right? Because we all have to wipe our bottoms when we poop. So it's just one extra step with the Q-tip. Um, and so so that's one thing. And then with the blood test, do um I mean, in my book I give tips on how to make the blood draw a better experience. I mean, in the case of your daughter, I mean, in the ER, sadly, you know, back then too, there wasn't really much thought to how do we make it more comfortable for kids. Now, you know, in in some hospitals, not enough, but some, you know, they they they have the numbing that right away that goes in. And then they have, you know, some amazing like nurses and even child life specialists that come in and try to make it um less traumatic experience, right? But, you know, barring that, you know, there are you can get prescription numbing cream so that your child doesn't feel the poke. You know, you just make it as comfortable as possible. Um, and then I think a lot of it is uh, you know, I'll be totally honest, it's um it's parents, right? Like when I think when my babies were little and I I had to get blood work done for my son, and even for me, I had the numbing cream on, and you know, I I this was like he got a free pass with Dora, you know, on the on my phone. But even still I was like, oh so little, right?

Dr. Rachaele Carver 33:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:04

So it's also us, we just have to, okay, this is gonna be such great detective work,

Parent Stress, Vagus Nerve, And Flexibility

SPEAKER_00 33:09

you know.

Dr. Rachaele Carver 33:09

Well, that brings me to a really important point, which I've seen now over 20 years of working with, you know, kids and parents that again a big part of digestion and vagus nerve, I think, is nervous system, right? And until age six or seven, right, the kids' brains are on this frequency where they're so um, I don't know what's the right word there, that environment is bring is is so influential on them. And so a mother's nervous system, like you just said, fear, right? That a child can really feel that. And I think in my own case, I think I did this with my kids when I was learning all this stuff, uh, you know, because I went through traditional conventional dentistry, and it was only through my bad eczema that I got into this holistic and saw, then it was like, oh my God, we we can't eat wheat, you know, and everything was with this fearful energy. And so, you know, of course they were like, she's nuts, you know, and they were were crazy about it. And they were feeding off of my energy. So something I try to tell moms, and it's not a judgmental thing. I mean, I was that mom, right? And we're always, I mean, as mama bears, right, we are want to protect our kids. But it's it's interesting if we can recognize our fear and turn it into more of a, you know, compassionate, understanding, educating way, we're gonna help our child's nervous system improve, right? Which then improves digestion, which improves the immune system. So I think that's, you know, again, a really important point that I'm always trying to drive home because sometimes, you know, I know myself I got in the cycle of, oh, just more supplements and more supplements and more supplements. And, you know, I was causing more emotional stress that, you know, that you get kind of caught on that hamster wheel, right? So Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:00

I mean, the and and your point about about the diet. I mean, I opened up my practices like 22 years ago now. And so, you know, things we just I mean, a lot has changed and then still not enough. But some things have changed, you know, that that I learned back then. I realized it was a little bit too dogmatic, right? You know, you go from this conventional world to this root cause, functional, integrative world. And it's like, you know, the world opens up and you see this huge possibility of, you know, reversing chronic disease and kids preventing chronic disease. And it's amazing, right? And yet then it still can become a little too dogmatic in the, okay, here's the mile-long supplement list, and you know, here's the elimination diet of the 20 foods that you can't eat because your food sensitivity tests said you were sensitive. And that means that, you know, you can't have these for three months minimum. And I I would write out these complicated rotation diets where every four days was a different food. And it, I mean, I look back now and I think, okay, I, you know, I was doing my best. And yet, for some families, the the elimination part of it became more stressful and and frankly, probably more inflammatory than than the original thing itself. And so, um, I mean, there are foods like gluten, you know, that are so inflammatory for if you're having an immune issue, especially autoimmune, that it really should be eliminated 100% for um a period of time while you're healing your gut and healing your immune system. But just like most things in life, there are very few absolutes, you know, and and you know, there has to be, you know, now that there's so much more awareness of, you know, the uh the vagus nerve and you know the importance of heart rate, optimal heart rate variability and you know, the power of really your your autonomic nervous system to shape your epigenetics, it's so important to make sure that we step back and make things doable and also like fun, right? You know, just having some some joy in it, some being very hopeful. I mean, just being that cheerleader for for your patients or as your as a parent, like being that cheerleader for your kids. And, you know, if if they have a little slip up, okay, it's not the end of the world. We're gonna, you know, every bite is an opportunity for, you know, the next choice, right? And so, so it really, I think that has shifted quite a bit. I used to be much more absolute about, oh, you have to be a hundred percent strict, right?

Dr. Rachaele Carver 37:46

Yeah. I used to think, how come? Because I was like, oh yes, gluten is a big problem for me, but I'd go on vacation and eat whatever I want, and my eczema would clear. And so like, yeah, you can't just eat that food, right? I'm like, hmm, you know, so really interesting. And once I healed my gut, you know, I could I can eat weed again. I still do it kind of sparingly and try to do the organic, you know, but um don't get that the eczema anymore from that because I've you know done done a lot of work of healing the gut, healing the nervous system

Supplements And The Three Microbiome Fs

Dr. Rachaele Carver 38:14

and all that. So we're kind of wind it, winding down here. I want to be respectful of your time. So maybe tell us, and again, we know every single child, every single person is an individual. So there aren't really any hard, fast, like absolute rules. But in general, for a healthy child, what do you think? And because our diet and the food supply is so missing, lacking in minerals specifically, do you think there are certain supplements that most children should take?

SPEAKER_00 38:41

That's a so that's a tough one. I would say, I mean, unfortunately, yes. You know, just because as you said, I mean, even for families that come to me and they are eating really clean and, you know, have varied diets, and you think, okay, of any of any child, this child probably is nutritionally fine. And then when I do blood work, I mean, more often than not, there are nutritional insufficiencies or deficiencies, even for our healthiest eaters. You know, it's just our our it's not just the food we're eating that is less nutrient dense. It's also that the world now is demanding more of our kids from, you know, from a detoxification standpoint, from an immune standpoint, from a brain standpoint. So they actually need more nutrients too than often they're getting in. And so I think almost all kids are gonna need some extra vitamin D. Almost all kids are gonna need a source of omega-3s because I mean, seafood is not a huge part of a lot of kids' diets. Um, most kids need more zinc and magnesium. So, and that's sort of the the nutrients, like the vitamins and minerals we're talking about. But then we're talking about in terms of broader categories of foods. Remember that, I mean, there are more bacterial cells in and on us than human cells. And so we have to nourish our microbiome. And our microbiome, they're not just focused on what vitamins and minerals we're getting. What they need are these broader categories of, you know, in my book I call them microbiome champions, but your three Fs, your fiber, which only less than 5% of US kids and adults get their daily recommended fiber, phytonutrients, which it's a pH, but it sounds like an F. So phytonutrients, which is all the color, the polyphenols in our foods. And one study found that there are eight in 10 Americans has a phytonutrient color gap in every single color. In some places in the States, on average in the United States, on any given day, if you took a poll, one in two kids doesn't have a single vegetable. Right. And then we have our fermented foods, which is, you know, it's a whole category of foods that can increase microbiome diversity and function and reduce inflammation that most kids are not having enough of or at all. And so focusing on all of those, and that's actually why, you know, for the past three years, you know, trying to think about, okay, our kids have we know our kids have these nutritional gaps. And then I was thinking, yeah, but they also have all of these microbiome gaps. I mean, they have all of these, like they need so much, and it's not just about what they need, it's about what their microbiome needs if we're really going to optimize their health. And so I actually spent three years making a supplement for kids to help fill all of their nutritional gaps with the full multivitamin, multi-mineral mix, and also their microbiome gaps with clinically backed, you know, pediatric studied prebiotics, and um, there's a fermented fruit blend and um, you know, 30 plus organic fruits and vegetables, phytonutrients. So I think, you know, if you you can piece it together by finding a high quality kids' multivitol multimineral, which is hard to find. You want to have your methylated Bs, you want to make sure there's a source of choline, which is important for brains, you want the activated forms of the vitamins like um, you know, B6 ideally would be in the you know P5P form. So just being a little savvy about that, not just getting the gummy vitamin off the shelf, right? Because that that may be doing more harm than any good. Then make always food is first. So working on that in your in your kids' diets. And then sometimes you need a little extra assurance.

Resources, Book, And Where To Follow

Dr. Rachaele Carver 42:37

Yeah. So, you know, as we're we're signing off, I'd say please look up Dr. Song. Uh, I know your website's down a little bit right now, but Healthy Kids Happy Kids or did it go.

SPEAKER_00 42:49

Yeah, Healthy Kids Happy Kids.com. We're we're down temporarily, and it should be up fingers crossed in like today.

Dr. Rachaele Carver 42:56

Fantastic. Good. I know there's so many great resources on that. I've used it for years and years and years. Thank you. And she has, as she just mentioned, really amazing supplements, like she said, and then and they're the active forms. There's so much research behind them. So you may want to go grab your Flintstone vitamins, but as Dr. Song said, that could be doing some more harm than good. So um, and we've given you a lot of information. Please look at her book, right? Because this could be a five-hour conversation. We can't fit it all in in our little hour here. So please pick up a copy of her book. It's very well written, very easy to understand and to follow. And um, yeah, if they have any questions on the website when Matt's back up, will they be able to? Is do you have a source for questions and stuff?

SPEAKER_00 43:39

Yeah, there's a contact form on on the page. You know, the best place to um get more up to date information for me too is on Instagram, which is healthy kids underscore happy kids.

Dr. Rachaele Carver 43:50

Well, again, I would love to chat with you for four more hours, but I know you've got to go fix all those beautiful children, or I shouldn't say fix, you're going to enhance their wellness, right? So So thanks everybody for listening. Hope you took away a lot of tidbits. I know I did. We'll see you on the next episode.