Embracing Equity in Financial Services

Celebrating International Women's Day 2023, we bring to you an enlightening conversation with industry veterans from our practice management podcast series, Advice Leaders. Samantha Hawkins, Praemium's Head of Sales for Southern Regions, engages in a rich dialogue with Katerina Nicolakopoulos, the driving force behind Eikon Financial, and Widiana Setiawan, a seasoned Senior Private Wealth Advisor at Shaw & Partners.

They delve into their unique journeys navigating the financial services industry, highlighting the significant benefits of maintaining a harmonious balance between male and female advisors. Together, they reflect on inspiring strategies to encourage a new generation of women to explore this promising career avenue, emphasizing the critical role of robust internship initiatives, effective coaching schemes, and defined career roadmaps tailored specifically for female graduates.

Furthermore, the trio underscores the necessity of promoting financial literacy among women, along with the active involvement of families in financial decisions. This episode transcends their individual narratives; it aims to foster diversity and propagate success within the financial services realm. Listen now and let Katerina and Widiana share with you their success stories and valuable insights.

Praemium Limited is the issuer of the Investment Leaders and Advice Leaders podcasts. These podcasts are for information purposes only and aren't tailored to individual financial situations and do not contain financial advice. Views expressed by presenters may not align with Praemium's and nothing in this podcast should be seen as an endorsement or recommendation of the product or strategy. For more information about Praemium, including our disclosure documents, please visit our website.

We recommend that individuals seek professional financial advice before taking action.

Transcript

Samantha Hawkins: 0:03

Hi everyone. My name is Samantha Hawkins. I'm head of sales here at premium and today we're really pleased to be able to introduce you to two fantastic women from our network Katarina Nicolokopoulos, who is the founding partner of Econ Financial, a fantastic financial advice firm here in Melbourne. Katarina's been in our industry for over 26 years now and Wydiana Setiwan, who is a senior private wealth advisor at Shoreham Partners, who has had over 15 years experience in the financial services industry. Thank you for joining me and welcome. That's our pleasure.

Widiana Setiawan: 0:32

Thank you have a good one.

Samantha Hawkins: 0:33

Now we are talking today in honor of International Women's Day, and the theme of International Women's Day this year is around equity and building equity within our profession, which I think all three of us here are very passionate about building equity within our organizations and our financial profession in general.

Samantha Hawkins: 0:51

We're going to talk about a little bit of background from Katarina and Wydie and where they've started, what led them to the financial career that they are on and the path that they're on and how they got here, maybe some hurdles they've had along the way, what they've learned along the way and then maybe some information around what they think we could do to encourage women and younger women in our organizations to follow the path that you maybe have done. So, first of all, just introducing each of you You've both, as I said, some of the some similarities in the background of your upbringing and the things that maybe lead you into financial services as a career. So, katarina, we'll start maybe with you. You started your own business with Econ A number of years ago. It's a very successful business with a really great loyal client base. Can you give us a little bit of background, I suppose, of what inspired you to take that step, because it's a really you know, it's a big move to start your own business, obviously.

Katarina Nicolokopoulos: 1:45

It is, and thank you, samantha, for allowing us to come on and inviting us to speak about what our experiences are in the industry, given that it has been predominantly male dominated, and to be a representative of female and financial services. So, in terms of what led me firstly to the industry and then what led me to become an advisor, I initially growing up as a country kid to parents that had migrated from Greece, I really got little direction in relation to what career path I could choose. So I actually studied a very broad degree in business and when I graduated in 1996, 1996, queensland was in a very serious recession and there were, it was peak unemployment and a lot of businesses shut down. So I actually, really just out of circumstance, came into financial services, albeit when I was at uni studying, I'd head to the library and look at the newspaper section and see, be interested predominantly in the financial services section and the stock market. So, lo and behold, I actually ended up in the industry.

Katarina Nicolokopoulos: 3:02

I don't know if that is by circumstance or chance, but for 10, well, essentially I was working on the other side of the fence advising advisors for 10 years in this corporate world and I was writing their strategies for clients to implement. I was auditing them to make sure that they were complying with our requirements and the legislative requirements. And then I went and managed the FSR transition which, for those of you potentially that are new insurance or considering financial services was a major financial services reform across our industry and that was a huge task to undertake. I was only 27, 28 at the time and you know I suppose I got to peer into hundreds of businesses across Australia financial services businesses and I got to see first hand, working with these advisors, what worked well and what didn't work well. And you know it was a bit of a battle sometimes because we were dealing with an industry that wasn't tertiary educated, we were dealing with an industry that weren't quick to adapt to new technologies, and so what I was trying to impart, you know, sometimes you would battle it out with advisors, but I do want to always refer to the bell curve because you know the masses are always sitting, you know pretty, and then you've got the outliers that you've got to work with, either the best or the worst, and then the rest in between.

Katarina Nicolokopoulos: 4:27

And so I, as part of that experience with the corporate, I actually started working with an accounting firm that was trying to get their financial services up and running and they met their challenges, particularly because the client base of that accounting firm required expertise in some pretty complex taxation or self-managed super funds, and the advisors that had come and gone really didn't understand those types of structures. So we stayed in touch and then a few about it. Basically, almost a year later I then joined the firm. I suppose the key reason to try this was to see whether or not everything that I was teaching these advisors over the course of the years and all the work that I was doing, whether or not I could actually apply it and could I do things better. In short, the two key reasons was to see whether or not I could apply the learnings and the teachings of the prior years in corporate and also to most importantly really was to look after the clients once I was there and I was facing them and looking after them and playing the role of responsibility to manage their financial affairs.

Katarina Nicolokopoulos: 5:38

The purpose of branding at ECON was so ECON is the ancient Greek word for icon and basically we wanted to create a firm that was the new benchmark in the industry, so that advisors could see how we could do things differently and not sell. So our industry was predominantly based on selling, product and selling, and we aligned the business very early on to be of service and to advise our clients. So I have a picture.

Samantha Hawkins: 6:07

And, having worked with you for a few years now, I can say that that is definitely the feel that I get when I come into the ECON offices. It's definitely a full service and a supportive and really nice environment. So I think you've created what you set out to. Thank you, thank you 16 years on. Yeah, fantastic Witty. So a little bit of a different story or a different path that you've gone down, but, interestingly, some similarities in background to start with. So can you give us a little bit of a summary of what led you to Shoram Partners? Sure?

Widiana Setiawan: 6:37

So first of all, thank you for having me here. But my background is very similar to Kat in the sense that I came here when I was 13. Purely came here to study and I basically came with my two older sister and from basically when I came, which is grade seven, to finishing my year 12, I learned a lot. I met a lot of people. I also very much grew up in a small country town and then I slowly moved towards the city. I went into Melbourne Uni to do my degree and it's a Bachelor of Science major in physics. After a year into the degree I thought you know, if I decide to go back to Indonesia to work, I need to look at some alternative, because it's very hard for me to find a job, especially as a woman, to work in physics field. So then I start rocking up first year of finance and commerce subject on my second year, on my second year of physics, and I loved it. I thought I'll give it a shot. And here we are.

Widiana Setiawan: 7:47

I've been working in financial services for over 15 years and one of the motivation for me is that I love the customer interaction. I love to hear client telling me the story. You know their life experiences and they always give you good advice. You know, and then you take that on board and then you try to apply in your everyday life and try not to make the same mistake. But the other factor that make me to stay in financial services is the fact that I can provide. I can help them solve their problem. I can provide solution based on the knowledge that I got and then at the same time I can add value to this relationship between the client and advisor services, advisor relationship. So for me that was my motivation to say as a financial advisor.

Samantha Hawkins: 8:39

It is a very rewarding career, but interesting to see that you feel you learn from your clients as well.

Samantha Hawkins: 8:44

I know I said a few tips along the way from my clients. It was one thing that has come up from both of you, I think, when we were chatting about this, was the impact, coming from a similar background in ways, in a rural community, parents who were maybe not in professional roles and had not had the same opportunities that you've both been afforded, and the influence that your mothers had on the path that you ended up following. I know, witte, you mentioned your mum was very encouraging in pushing your education and getting you through to uni. Do you think is that the case? Do you think your mother's had an influence on where you are today and do you think that speaks to the broader influence of women in society and the influence that they have?

Widiana Setiawan: 9:26

Oh, absolutely. I think having someone to support you and to encourage you, especially when you're going through that teenagers and uncertainty period of your life, it's quite important. And my mum basically just said to me look, go, enjoy your study, enjoy your life. But back then the expectation for girls my age was to complete your study and settle down. But for me, my mum said to me go out there, have a career, make a name of yourself and do it whatever you want. And so for me that itself is quite a bit encouragement for me to move where I am today Fantastic.

Samantha Hawkins: 10:14

And Katarina, I know you said you felt the same with your mum. She really wanted more for you than what she had achieved with her life. Academically, not personally, necessarily.

Katarina Nicolokopoulos: 10:23

Definitely Well, I think, with my mother. She wanted more for all three of us. She always encouraged us to continue on to university. There was actually sort of no choice for us and that she saw as a new migrant was the way out of an agrarian lifestyle which is very, very labor intensive and it's a tough life, although it was a really beautiful childhood and I think In terms of growing up in the country, yes, like there is definitely a sense of community and that's probably influenced us in how we work and having a nice community around us. I feel like our team and our clients feel that community and family.

Katarina Nicolokopoulos: 11:04

What I did learn was that work ethic and resilience. So you learn. I think I pretty much got the double whammy, so you could easily look at me as the victim of unfortunate circumstances in my childhood, but in fact and I often played that role as well earlier in my career but when you become introspective and look back at those times, you actually realise that that's brought you to the life that you have today. So you've got that resilience. You need that work ethic.

Samantha Hawkins: 11:33

So resilience, I think, is something that is obviously an attribute that you've both inherited from your parents and I'm sure has contributed to the career path you've taken and the successes you've had in your careers. But if you think about all the other attributes that are important to the role of in financial services and financial advice in general, or more specifically I should say, what do you think are the other attributes and skills, regardless of gender male, female that are important in the role of a financial advisor, we do, you like, maybe start with you for that one.

Widiana Setiawan: 12:04

Yes. So for me, I always believe, like as an advisor, the most important thing is to listen to what your client have to say. I have this rule to talk less, so I would get my client to talk about themself 80% of the time and I will then talk about 20% of the whole conversation, and at the same time, I also like to get to know them, and not just them it as an individual, but their families, because when it comes to advice, I think, like all under a relationship, it is important for you to build that trust, to build a lifelong relationship. And then the other thing that I think is quite important is that regular communication, understanding what they want, what they're looking for. So that's the main thing that you should have as an advisor.

Samantha Hawkins: 12:56

Yeah, absolutely, and it's difficult, especially when you're in a role where a lot of your role is teaching you're having to educate your clients in what you're recommending for them.

Widiana Setiawan: 13:06

So yeah, you do have to talk a lot.

Samantha Hawkins: 13:08

So just step back and make sure you listen is sometimes a difficult thing to do, katerina, anything further to add to that as far as skills and attributes?

Katarina Nicolokopoulos: 13:15

Yes, absolutely so. I definitely agree with Witte in relation to communication. I think that communication is critical. Einstein said that if you can't teach it to a six year old, you haven't mastered your topic and your subject, and I suppose that really comes in terms of that mastery of being able to articulate to a client the advice that you wish for them to implement.

Katarina Nicolokopoulos: 13:42

The second most critical element in terms of being good at our profession is definitely knowledge, in a sense of making sure that you understand the financial markets, but you also understand monetary policy and fiscal policy and geopolitical events and all of those aspects that you need to be aware of to be able to manage finances.

Katarina Nicolokopoulos: 14:05

And so really, having been in the industry now 26 years, I've certainly gained the knowledge which I needed to in terms of being able to navigate through our regulatory and taxation systems and the investment markets.

Katarina Nicolokopoulos: 14:19

But then you learn so much more through experience as well. I've experienced the Asian crisis, the GFC, obviously COVID, that hit, and so through that it better prepares you in terms of managing money, particularly when it's such a huge financial responsibility that you have, because the two most important things in life is your health and your financial position. So we wear this with a huge sense of responsibility in terms of what we do. So, in short, I think it's definitely knowledge, communication and the people is critical. So working with the right people can either make your life easy and your clients outcomes great or not. And definitely introspection, so being able to know potentially what you haven't done well and being humble in that and always looking to improve and I think that that's what builds a great business, that's what builds great advice and I think that that's actually important for everybody, even from through all aspects of life is that introspection and being able to look inwards and identify your strengths and your weaknesses.

Samantha Hawkins: 15:33

And it is probably not something, a strength that a great many people have, I think. You know, generally in the community, it's difficult, very difficult, to be completely honest with yourself and look back and think what you could have done better or differently. So, but, yeah, completely agree with that as importance. So we think about that. Those are obviously general attributes and skills that are important, and obviously knowledge is important. And listening to your clients to understand what they need, and being able to communicate to them so they clearly understand the advice that you're providing we think about. You know, in the theme of International Women's Day, are there any attributes specifically that women do you think are stronger at or is more natural to women in our industry? And that's the strength that we bring to the financial services industry. So maybe, witte, I'll start with you on that one.

Widiana Setiawan: 16:19

Yeah, I think creativity certainly is one of the you know skill that we bring. We're looking at different ways to when it comes to managing the portfolio. So I think, in the sense that having a male and female advisor to have that balance in the workforce certainly really helps me anyway. But women tend to be a bit more looking at, you know, outside the bigger picture. What can we do, you know, plan ahead. That's what we're really good at. And also the fact that I think one of the points that Kat mentioned, you know, looking at investment, that is, I think, side-different to the normal investment shares and all that, and that was really good idea, you know, and we should. There is a lot of opportunity out there. It's just a matter of identifying them.

Samantha Hawkins: 17:13

So, yeah, using that creativity, create. Yeah, and that's interesting point that you know it is, there are strengths in you know that's male and female have different strengths not always, but it can stand apart and it's bringing of both of those strengths together. That's probably the best combination. So the equity of those is what we're looking for.

Widiana Setiawan: 17:33

What I experience in the workforce, you know first, is where I am now. Having that male advisor there. It's given me more practical view and you know to learn from that, and a lot of the advisor at Shores. Actually they really, really help like sharing, they like to share, they like to share their knowledge, you know Also. So I'm learning a lot from them. So, touching base to what you say before, it is, at the end of the day, having that good balance of having male advisor and female advisor is quite important. It makes you to become a better advisor as well.

Samantha Hawkins: 18:11

Yeah, absolutely, and I know it's probably no surprise to anyone that Shores, being a stock-breaking firm, is quite a male dominated environment. But I know, in speaking to you over the period of time that I've known you, it's certainly been a positive experience for you and not necessarily that it's. There's been any negatives and you've had other experiences in other roles that weren't necessarily male-dominated, Correct, that weren't as positive. So yeah, so all very much on the same page there that it is. There's good and bad yin and yang in everything and in everyone.

Samantha Hawkins: 18:44

And certainly in our team here. Some of our strongest analytical team members are women.

Widiana Setiawan: 18:48

Yeah, so you know, and it's not always the case.

Samantha Hawkins: 18:52

But certainly, you know, I think sometimes we can generalize and pull a few of those things out. The important thing, I guess, as we're talking about, is the equity of different skill sets, different people, different backgrounds, that in all the benefits that we bring because of that.

Katarina Nicolokopoulos: 19:07

So I love that point because when it comes to hiring somebody new at ECON, we've always followed the philosophy that have to be different. They can't be the same as everybody else. And I think, even though we've got a small team, we've got a smart team and we've got a productive and efficient and highly qualified and each balance the other out in terms of their strengths and weaknesses.

Samantha Hawkins: 19:29

So I know there's difficulty in bringing females in, and what do you think we need to do, then, to encourage more women to consider financial services as a career option? I know we are particularly passionate about providing financial advice to women, and I know you focus on women who may be through a separation or some sort of financial hardship and trying to bring them and help them to gain financial independence and knowledge. I think probably women are in a better position to do that for the women that are in a vulnerable position, so it is important that we have women advisors available. For that reason, what do you think we can do to get the word out there that this is a great industry for women to work in and to encourage more women to consider it?

Widiana Setiawan: 20:14

I think being a female advisor, you have to first of all love the job.

Widiana Setiawan: 20:21

By the same time, if we have more like internship, more coaching, as well as more, a bit more clear career path within the company, so that a lot of the graduates will understand what is there to expect, at the same time, having a female senior as a mentor or someone to talk to is quite important, but I am quite passionate especially in closing that gap and in the female financial literacy.

Widiana Setiawan: 20:57

So for me, I think women in the past has always been giving that responsibility to the breadwinner and they just basically just sit aside and just watch.

Widiana Setiawan: 21:07

But what we are slowly starting to see is women, our generation, starting to step up, trying to understand, try to take on a bit more responsibility in the family, and it is good to see more engagement and a lot of my meeting with my client, appointment with my client. I try to get both of their thoughts in terms of the financial advice that I share with them or I provide them, rather than just one person, try to understand what is their concern from both sides and then that way they both engage. They know exactly what is going on. It is not so much giving them freedom of independence. It is just more the fact that, if anything happens to your spouse, you are aware of what is going on and that you can work together as a team to back each other up. But at the same time, those that may be coming out from a really bad relationship they also need a bit more independence in terms of managing their finance, knowing what to do, and so that is where my passion is.

Katarina Nicolokopoulos: 22:23

First of all, let me preface it by saying it is certainly not a glamorous job it is, I meant but it is very rewarding. It is just so rewarding If you think about again what I said before. The two most important things a person needs in life is great health and financial security. If you can play a role in helping people with their financial circumstances, it is such a critical role. If you love learning and reading, like I said before, you have got to read everything you have got to have and so you get to absorb as much as possible.

Katarina Nicolokopoulos: 23:01

You get to work with amazing clients, like you said, witte, what an eclectic group that I have been working with for the last 16 years. These are incredible people that have achieved a lot. I have really broadened out into the investment piece outside of the strategy taxation piece. I think if you are caring and you are smart, this is an amazing industry to work in and, like I said, the rewards are just. I mean you can't. There is no price on those rewards in terms of what you can do to help. Especially for Witte, I have worked with women as well that have had their husbands manage their financial affairs their entire life, and so they need their hand held in direction and to ensure that again they can afford to continue living their lifestyle and what they want for themselves.

Samantha Hawkins: 23:54

Absolutely Very interesting, just that conversation, the things that came out about the positives and why would someone want to do this role One of the things I do personally miss about financial advice and actually being an advisor, even though I'm still in the industry. I miss a lot of my clients. They become friends or family over time. But that reward when you realise you've worked something out and they can achieve what they want to achieve, it is a wonderful feeling to feel that you've helped.

Samantha Hawkins: 24:21

And I think, from Witte, what you said, what you learn from your clients, it is financial, it is an analytical type of role. You do need to have that sort of background and knowledge and enjoyment, I guess, of interest in the financial markets, but it's a service role. If someone is thinking that I'm more that way, well, you certainly would get that out of a role in financial services. So I think, to finish up, what would you both, what do you both think that we need to do as an industry to encourage women into financial services, into financial advice, but into financial services overall? What's the type of things we've talked about, all the benefits and the good parts of the role and how your experience has led you to where you are, and I don't think either of you would say that you. You know we've all had hurdles, but neither of you in my knowledge have really ever experienced anything particularly negative. It's not saying it's always easy. What do you think we need to do, then, to encourage women into our industry?

Katarina Nicolokopoulos: 25:27

The reality is like I don't want to sugarcoat anything Like so in terms of women entering the industry, or any industry for that matter. It's not easy, but just having that, the confidence, the courage, the conviction and and doing what you want to do is important.

Widiana Setiawan: 25:43

You know, in.

Katarina Nicolokopoulos: 25:45

I don't know if you want to add to that. I agree, yeah.

Widiana Setiawan: 25:47

I agree. I think, like you know every hardship that you come across in any career, just don't focus, don't get yourself distracted, just keep on going. Like I always say to myself, you know you are the master of your own destiny. You know you decide what you want to do. At the same time, when it comes to life, you always have a choice whether you decide to take that criticism and make the best out of you, or you can dwell on it and just keep. You know, holding yourself back. But yeah, keep on going.

Samantha Hawkins: 26:17

I said just stay focused, and I think there's something that you said when we've been discussing this podcast was that the main thing that we can do as women in the industry is to talk about our roles and get the message out there that you know there's a lot of good and there's a lot of diversity in this industry, different paths that you can take. So I think this podcast has hopefully been a step in the right direction for that to let women, young women out there, know what the type of options that are available to very successful women who have had different careers and end up in a slightly different path, but both giving a great deal of service to the clients that they look after, a huge amount of support and confidence and self-belief, I think, to the clients, and that's that can't be overstated to the importance of what you bring to your clients. So thank you both very much for your time, thank you for giving us your couple of hours, your afternoon, to record this with us, and I will see you both soon.

Widiana Setiawan: 27:16

Thank you, thanks for having us.

Samantha Hawkins: 27:18

Pleasure.