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Gentry's Journey
Revealing the Depths of African American Heritage with Leslie Best
What if the stories we've been told about history were only the tip of the iceberg? Journey with us as we sit down with Leslie Best, an accomplished author and former educator, who reveals the hidden depths of African American history. Leslie’s latest book, "Hidden History: The Antiquity of the African Continent," serves as our guide, as we uncover the remarkable yet often overlooked legacy of Annie Turnbull Malone, a trailblazing entrepreneur and philanthropist who laid the groundwork for Madam CJ Walker's success.
Join us for an emotional and enlightening conversation that delves into the painstaking research and revelations that challenge mainstream narratives. We explore the lives of unsung heroes and correct historical inaccuracies, shining a light on figures like Malone, whose contributions to education, business, and philanthropy have been unfairly minimized. Leslie shares her frustrations with the superficial recognition these figures receive and provides us with a richer, more accurate portrayal of their lives and achievements.
From the reign of the Kushite Pharaohs in ancient Egypt to the economic prowess of medieval African empires facilitated by Berber traders, this episode is a treasure trove of untold stories. Leslie illuminates the intricate histories of the Ethiopian dynasties, the Bantu migrations, and the dynamic trade relations between Africa, India, and China. This episode promises not only to educate but also to inspire a deeper appreciation for the profound and far-reaching impact of African history on our world. Tune in and expand your understanding of the past with insights that resonate through the ages.
Hello everyone. This is Carolyn Coleman. Welcome to Gentry's Journey, and our honored guest today is Leslie Best. I'm going to go ahead and start with a scripture and then we'll let Leslie introduce herself. For, by grace, you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing. It is the gift of God, and that's Ephesians 2 and 8. Now, leslie, how are you doing today?
Speaker 2:I'm doing great, thank you. How are you?
Speaker 1:I am well, thank you, and thank you so much for being a guest on Gentry's Journey.
Speaker 2:I appreciate the invite. I and looking forward to it.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Now. We titled this Hidden History, but before we get into that, tell the audience a little bit about yourself, please please.
Speaker 2:Well, speaking of myself, I'm an author. Author of nine books. I write non-fiction, historically based books, basically afrocentric books. I'm a former educator. I've worked as various positions as teachers and curriculum coordinator, principal, the full gamut. I've taught in private school, parochial schools as well as public schools. I am a very devoted educator. My children say I'm always teaching. My husband's always telling me I'm giving him a history lesson. I love history. I think history is very relevant. I think we should know, as people, we should know more about our history. That's the area that is lacking. So I focus on history, and much of the history is hidden history that many people are oblivious to the truths.
Speaker 1:Okay, that's why you call it hidden history, or is it because people just don't dive into it and get that same love or appreciation that you get?
Speaker 2:Basically, it's hidden. This latest book, hidden History the Antiquity of the African Continent. Much of this information is hidden information. It hasn't always been available to the public, haven't always been printed in the history books have not always been taught, have not even ever been investigated. Archaeologists haven't always explored the areas that I'm writing about in my book. So that is the reason why it's called Hidden. And my other book that I would like to speak on, the unwavering Annie Turnbull Malone, is hidden as well, and she has a very compelling life story. We've all heard of Madam CJ Walker, but very little has been known about Annie Malone. But very little has been known about Annie Malone, which was Madam CJ Walker's mentor. She also was a millionaire, an entrepreneur, educator, philanthropist and a humanitarian.
Speaker 1:Everyone should know her name just as well as they know Madam CJ Walker's name. I remember I think it was a movie regarding Madam CJ Walker. So, yes, there were some interesting facts in that.
Speaker 2:Did you find or did you get an opportunity to look at the documentary or the movie after I wrote my book because it was on Netflix and I was excited about hearing the story, having the story, the series written about Madam CJ Walker, I was very excited about it. But when I started going online and hearing comments that were made and even people that I knew family members when they were discussing the movie and they mentioned this woman that kept following Madam CJ Walker all through the movie and they made her look like she was some sort of weird character, had no relevance. That disturbed me because I had read several books about Madam CJ Walker and when people would discuss this other person I said it sounds like Annie Malone Because of the books that I had read about Madam CJ Walker. Annie Malone was mentioned because she was the one that gave Madam CJ Walker the start in business. She's the one that used her product, wonderful Hair Grow, to grow Madam CJ Walker's hair.
Speaker 2:Madam CJ Walker was one of her sales agents. So when I started investigating doing research because I do very extensive research, I go into archives, I go into the Library of Congress I feel like I'm almost a detective and I pulled up so much information. It was so compelling to me. I was in a state of shock that Annie Malone had done as much as she had done. It has not been recognized.
Speaker 2:You know, I have, I'm sorry.
Speaker 1:No, you're fine, I remember it and the movie did not depict it just as you're saying. It didn't really give her the credit. It seemed as though she was sort of copying or mimicking. Madam CJ Walker, so you're saying in your research and in your findings that was just not true.
Speaker 2:It was totally wrong. In the movie. They also said that she was a mixed background, she was biracial. She was not biracial. But, as I was telling you, I did not watch the movie until after I did my research good, after I did my research Good, after I did my research and I saw it. I laughed through the whole movie. It was such a false movie, false information, and the reason why they were able to get away with it is because they changed her name somewhat, mm-hmm, and that's the only reason why. And it still should have been soon for it. Wow, that's interesting. And her life story was very interesting and she started she was born in Illinois and I found that was very interesting because I'm from Illinois, I was born and raised in Illinois. She was born in southern Illinois in a town by the name of Metropolis. Okay, that's where Metropolis, illinois. That's where she was born. Both of her parents were African American, both were African-American and so, before she branched out, she was raised there and she was branched out into St Louis with her product Because she was in high school, she was learning about chemistry and how to mix different chemicals together and she was interested in hair when she came up with her product Wonderful Hair Grower.
Speaker 2:So that's where she met Madam CJ Walker. She was going. She was such an outstanding salesperson and she would go from door to door with her little basket selling her product. But not only did she sell her product, she also was demonstrating how well her product worked. So she would apply her product to their hair and then, when it becomes successful, well, they see the hair growing and improving. Because at this time there were quite a few women coming up who came from rural areas that did not know how to maintain their hair and they were having problems with hair issues where they were having sores and different type of fungus diseases in their heads. It was very common and Annie Malone was able to go in and help Madam St Jerry Walker because she had the issue. She had that hair issue, no-transcript. So that's what happened.
Speaker 2:Madam St Jane Walker became one of her sales agents and when she moved away from St Louis she had some of her products because her sales agents came. They would leave with products because they were selling and they would leave the city. They would leave St Louis. They would leave with products because they were selling and they would leave the city. They would leave St Louis, they would start traveling all over the United States with her products, madam CJ Walker. She found out well, that's a good idea for me to apply. So she used her product and in that movie they showed her. When she first left Madam CJ Walker, when she first left Annie Malone, she'd had her products and she was selling it. Then she decided to put her name on the product.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:It was just really. It was really interesting, this research that I did and also Madam CJ Walker, you know she died in 1919 at the age of 51. Oh really she was that young, she was 51 years old. It was right after she bought the home in upper new york.
Speaker 2:Okay, that million there you know million dollar house and everyone you know that's how that's why they made her, gave her that attention, saying she was the first uh black woman, uh millionaire. Because she had bought that house, annie Malone, instead of buying, because she was community oriented. She was a very spiritual person, she didn't flaunt her wealth. Her objective was to help black women earn an income and be able to be self-sufficient and not having to go into being domestics, to give them opportunities and to help her community. So instead of buying a big mansion, she bought a big complex in St Louis, a million dollar complex. I have photos in my book. This is not just something on paper. She had this big, beautiful, a block long, and it provided services for the community. It was a state ofof-art facility, but that's what she did with her million. She didn't want to flaunt her million for herself and each time she would have something, she would develop or construct something. She always had a religious ceremony and she always had, you know, dignitaries. Everyone praised her and gave her recognition, but she always went to God and she always had prayer meetings and services everywhere she went and every involvement that she was part of.
Speaker 2:In the movie it also stated where Ma'am St John Walker said she wasn't going to sell her products to drug stores. Well, you know as well as I do she did. She sold her products to stores. Annie Malone never did. She sold them to her agents so that her agents could make money, money all the way up until she died. And Annie Malone didn't die until 1957, at the age of 87. Okay, and she died in Chicago. No one, very few people, know about her. She doesn't have a big fancy, she's not a big fancy cemetery. She doesn't have all this accolades. And she contributed a lot to the society. Those and loads of articles recognizing her in all different parts of the United States, especially in the South, even in New York. And she was a oh, she graduated from. They gave her an honorary degree from Howard University, annie Malone, okay, it was of her service and I have a copy of her diploma. And also she was a member of a sorority. She was always active and involved.
Speaker 1:So, annie Malone, as far as your research takes, you was community oriented, business oriented. She wanted to share what she had. She wanted others to build wealth or to be independent when it came to having their own business, so to speak. Exactly, exactly, okay now, do you have a copy of that diploma in in the book, in your book?
Speaker 2:do I have a copy of what?
Speaker 1:no, I'm sorry you said her diploma. Do you have a copy of that in your book, because she?
Speaker 2:also has a lot. There was a library um, I was able to get it and also, let's see, do I have it here? You know the Green Book. She's listed in the Green Book as well. You know she provided housing for people in Chicago. You know she left St Louis and she moved to Chicago. That's where she died, made a transition, okay, well, a lot of situations occurred.
Speaker 1:Well, did Annie Malone have a family?
Speaker 2:She didn't have any children. Okay, she was married twice, but her last husband that was her issue. He exploited her. There's loads of information that would be beneficial for entrepreneurs, especially women.
Speaker 1:OK, so when you how long I'm trying to get this question correct, how long I'm trying to get this question correct how much time does it take for you to research, especially when it came to Annie Milan and Madam CJ Walker Give us a good time frame on how you started and who you started with, but who you ended up with, and how much time that that take to pull all of that, because that's a lot of great information.
Speaker 2:Well, I spent a lot of time Once I started researching. I spent hours researching. There's not a couple of hours, I might spend the entire day. And also it took me one year. Okay, because I was so enthusiastic and I was so enthralled over her story and everything just fell into place. You know, everything information just started coming to me. It's fun, it was exciting. It evoked quite several emotions. I was happy for her. Then I was sad for her, then I was elated, I was proud and then I wondered this woman?
Speaker 1:why hasn't she been recognized? Well, you know as well as I do, leslie, we have a lot of unsung heroes out here, exactly, yeah, and that is a disservice or is disappointing as well. We sort of kind of scrape the surface and when I say we, I'm just saying the general public Scrape the surface, get a little bit of information and go on. But anytime you're doing research, you really want to write a very good paper. It is going to take time to get that done and you are going to unearth or uncover some things that you never knew. And, like you say, you're going to go through all these emotions because you're like oh, wow, this is great. Oh, my word, that's terrible how that happened.
Speaker 1:And you walk away with a lot of questions why was this not done? Why was that not done? Why did it go this way? And I know when people are well, I'm not a screenwriter, so let's put that out there, but I'm saying creative control A lot of times. They want to tell the story in a way that captures that person in the best light that they want to be seen. Would you agree with that?
Speaker 2:Definitely Okay, and that's what it made me. It was concerning to me because, discerning, because this was a movie, it had an opportunity to showcase both women, both women, their contributions, both women were millionaires.
Speaker 1:Yes, why pick one and not the other?
Speaker 2:They could highlight it both, since both were in the movie.
Speaker 1:I agree with you. Why single out one and not the two? Because they basically had similarities but still so much diversity in their stories.
Speaker 2:Well, they made her, they degraded her character and they degraded her as a woman and her contribution. They made her look like a buffoon and it wasn't right. No, and those were the comments that I saw, and that's the reason why I started exploring. I didn't know I was going to find all of this information that I did find. I just wanted to confirm that she was the person that mentored Madam CJ Walker. I was not expecting to actually see her whole story, to be exposed to her whole life story, and I was constantly getting information from various sources, resources such as, as I stated, different newspapers not just one particular newspaper, various newspapers and different articles from the Library of Congress that were just amazing and in other museums from New York the New York Library, New York Archives, St Louis Archives, some of the universities, some of the colleges. Information was just coming to me rapidly.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, if you're going to do justice to whatever paper or article or book you're writing, you're going to have to dig deep.
Speaker 2:Well, I had not expected to dig deep. Well, I had not expected I was not expecting to write a book With all this information. I had to compile it into a book. I wasn't going to sit on it.
Speaker 1:Oh no. No no, no, you were putting in too much work or finding a lot of information that you felt others needed to know.
Speaker 2:I thought people needed to know. Mm-hmm, and you know, she even had. There was a pilot school that was located on her block in Chicago. She owned a whole block of mansions, so she had this John C Robinson National Air College and it was one of the first air colleges that were black, ran and operated in the United States. Matter of fact, the Tuskegee Airmen were trained by the John C Robinson who was the instructor. Okay, I mean, it's amazing.
Speaker 1:Especially how it is all the tail is being weaved. We were in Chicago, now we're doing Tuskegee, how it all kind of comes together, but one thought or one process leads to enough.
Speaker 2:Well you know how, in Solasi, well you know Salasi, he hired John Robinson to help train pilots in Ethiopia. Okay, and then I went into Ethiopia. I can go into their information. In Ethiopia they have lots those resources where they acknowledge John C Robinson. So it just went. It went to so many directions, it went just even further than just hair.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, absolutely. I'm going to ask this question Now. I'm still thinking about the movie and the gentleman, one of the gentlemen in the movie. I think he was married to Madam CJ Walker, but it seems as though, if I remember correctly, anna Milon was trying to convince him to find the secret to success or the product and get it to him so that she would have it. So. But what you're saying is that's just not true anyway. So how do you think that was? That tale was weaved.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm sorry, I didn't hear that clearly. You said the man, a man one one.
Speaker 1:It was one gentleman may have been the gentleman that madam cj walker was married to okay and um, annie malone was trying to kind of woo him away from her, I think.
Speaker 2:Um, oh, I kind of remember that now. Yeah, I see, and she, he came to Chicago, right, he did. Ok, I have not. I can't see that being her character. I can't say what happened with her and and Madam and Madam CJ excuse me Walker's husband. I don't know what happened, but it seemed like it's so out of character because her spirituality and her involvement in churches Everywhere she went, she was involved in churches, most of her meetings were done in churches, and her husband she did have a husband and she even was so spiritual with her husband that she gave him the leading role to her business.
Speaker 2:Okay, and she had set this business up herself. She established her business on her business. Okay, and she had set this business up herself. She established her business on her own and he was an opportunist and so, anyway, he filed for a divorce and tried to take half of her money, and so, from there, the courts got involved, okay, and took her business with a conservatorship and she spent a lot of her money with lawyers, attorneys, et cetera. She had high-ranking attorneys. She had to fight with her husband to get her money for the business that she established, and so that's how she relocated to Chicago.
Speaker 2:Okay, however, she was traveling. She was coming to Chicago anyway and I have information about her with her husband before they went through the divorce procedures. But she was into political because she was a Republican, because Blacks were Republicans during that time. I have her at certain meetings that she was involved in in Chicago, political meetings with her husband, one of the conventions. I don't have any information. If that was true, that was not in any article or any resources. A relationship with Madam CJ Walker that was not available.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:But her character did not appear to be that way. I do never know. I can't say yay or nay about that.
Speaker 1:And I understand that. And I go back to saying you know taking creative control, you know how we should weave this tale. You know it may be very far from it, but it makes for an interesting television, so to speak, or an interesting dress.
Speaker 2:Right, even her dress, the way she carried herself. She did not dress in the manner that they showed in that movie. Ok, she was very she in the manner that they showed in that movie. Okay, she was not flamboyant. Okay, she was not about herself, she was about what she could do for others.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, that's a nice segue into Hidden history, isn't it Very interesting? Now, anything else you want to say about that one, or you want to move on to your second book regarding hidden history.
Speaker 2:It's just. Her story is so rich. People really need to read it to appreciate Annie Malone.
Speaker 1:I agree, I'm intrigued.
Speaker 2:Now some of her photos. Some of her photos are at the Smithsonian African-American Museum in Washington. Now, a matter of fact, they gave me, you know, some of her photos and they have a copy of my book. Now I visited the museum the first year it opened and they didn't have very much about Annie Malone. It was primarily Madame CJ Walker. Madame CJ Walker was supposed to have invented everything. She didn't invent nothing and I wrote a book about thing. And I wrote a book about inventors, african-american inventors in the early history of inventors, okay, and they had patents. So I'm looking for Annie Malone, I mean Madam CJ Walker's invention with a patent. Well, she did not receive the patent. It was Marjorie Joyner. Have you ever heard of Marjorie?
Speaker 1:Joyner, the name sounds familiar, but I don't want to say yes. I do not want to say yes, but the name sounds very familiar.
Speaker 2:Well, she was very involved in the hair industry. Matter of fact, she worked for Madam CJ Walker and she's the one that carried her legacy all these years because she was the one that was, you know, helped sell the items. She was a hairstylist, she managed Madam CJ Walker's company and so she's the one that received a patent and she assigned it to Madam CJ Walker's manufacturing company in 1929. This was after Madam CJ Walker had passed away. It had nothing to do with Matt and CJ Walker, it was Marjorie Joyner, but she was very devoted to Matt and CJ Walker and she really kept her alive in the minds of everyone. Eddie Malone did not have anyone to really keep her going. She was pretty much on her own. She did have some family members, but you know, but family members don't always give you the support that you might need.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was going to say they don't always come through. I don't know if it's because they're too busy doing their own thing, but everybody has various personalities, various goals. But yes, that definitely does happen.
Speaker 2:And then there's a lack of interest also, absolutely.
Speaker 1:You know, as I say, you know they don't share your same goals, so they're not going to be interested. And I get that. You know variety is the spice of life, but sometimes you need a push or some encouragement to maintain or to go forth with your dreams and your goals.
Speaker 2:Exactly, exactly.
Speaker 1:Okay, Okay. Well, Leslie, that was wonderful. Now tell us about the second book.
Speaker 2:This is my latest, okay, and I call it my latest and greatest Now this hidden history, the antiquity of the African continent, okay, so when I started reading this book or writing the book, this was not the title and actually it was going to be a different concept Totally. It was going to be a different concept totally and my concept was going to start in Africa and I was going to travel to Europe, to different countries in Europe, and it was going to compare certain aspects, but instead I could not get out of Africa and I kept saying I on to other parts of the world. I could not get out of it because it became so intriguing to me. This is the type of writer I am. I get excited. Then I said, well, it's time to leave, but I can't leave because all this information it's like God is sending me through these books, he's directing me to go in these directions. So I got stuck in Africa. I couldn't get out and it was so interesting and I'm learning as I'm writing, as I'm researching, and so that's how I came up with this book.
Speaker 2:Now I started off. This is the ancient history, so the focus has nothing to do with the invasion of Europeans, nothing. So I started off with chapter was some verses from the Bible that mentions different people or places in Africa, such as Cush and Ethiopia. So, and the Cushites and the Kushites. So the beginning of my book I'm focusing on the Kushites and the dynasty. Now I've heard of the. There were black pharaohs and often people are comparing themselves with Egyptians. Now I've traveled to Egypt. Okay, I've been to Egypt, I've been to Cairo, I've seen the pyramids, and so I didn't see much of anything that resembled me, for instance, and I was straining my eyes and I went into the museums and I was looking for certain characteristics in the section that I went to. I didn't travel to Luxor, but only Cairo and Gaza.
Speaker 2:So what I did is I started with the Kushite pharaohs and they actually were the pharaohs and they actually were the pharaohs, the black pharaohs of Egypt. Now, they were from Cush, they were Cushites at the time and during the ancient periods, egypt and Cush, they were pretty much combined and they would trade amongst each other and they would have wars against each other. So the Cushites, they captured the Egyptians Because, you know, during that time period there was a lot of violence, there were a lot of interactions amongst these groups of people all through Africa. So, anyway, the Kushites, they took over Egypt. Now, this information came from the University of Chicago. They have an Oriental Museum and they have archaeologists that are involved in information, seeking out information in all these various areas. So they ruled Egypt, these Black Kushite pharaohs. They ruled Egypt for close to 100 years. Their dynasty was the 25th dynasty. That was the 25th dynasty that was ruled by these Kushites.
Speaker 2:So in my book I have it listed, I have the names of the various kings or pharaohs. Now I went into different museums, especially in London and Paris. They have exhibits now on these kings. There are a few that were found in Egypt. So I wrote about the pharaohs and what they did, because they were involved in construction in Egypt. They did a lot of construction, construction. They really helped to develop Egypt, to help them to grow. They built temples.
Speaker 2:So after the Assyrians took over, sure, then they went back, they lost their ruling, but what I found that was so fascinating was the fact that they had these pyramids, these pyramids they had. Have pyramids, these pyramids they have. Have you heard of UNESCO? I have, okay, so you know how they go around the world and try to maintain all of these historical places and artifacts, historical, how to maintain them and categorize them? Well, they have archaeologists that found these pyramids, and so what was Kush is now called Sudan, and these pyramids are magnificent. Now, to me, I'm not being partial, but when I went to Egypt, I was disappointed in the pyramids that I saw. Oh, I was disappointed. It was not what I expected.
Speaker 1:What was your expectation?
Speaker 2:I thought it would be. Well, you know, it's sand, it's dry. I felt as she had. I would have hoped to have seen more eye. I felt as she had. I would have hoped to have seen more. As I said, I didn't go to Luxor, I was just right outside of Egypt and that's where you're supposed, they're supposed to have the greatest, that's supposed to be the greatest pyramid in the world. But the pictures that I have seen from UNESCO and that I have in my book, they are far more magnificent. You know, when they first started coming into Africa, the Europeans, they did not go deep into Africa. They wanted to stay along the Mediterranean, closer to the Mediterranean, the upper parts. They didn't want to go to the southern part of Egypt. They didn't want to venture into that because it was what? Why is it? They didn't want to go into the darker. I want to know that myself. That's because the darker people are in the southern regions of Egypt.
Speaker 1:I mean I was going to say, but I was like no, let me ask the historian, let me ask the historian, the darker people.
Speaker 2:I mean more darker people, because they're darker people in the upper part too, but the further south, the darker and the more. And they wanted to keep it. They wanted to present a certain perspective, they wanted to keep a particular perspective. But they have beautiful temples, they have beautiful, beautiful, magnificent pyramids. Now it's been stated, unesco has stated BBC have you know, the broadcasting company from England they've done some research on it as well. It's documented. Now, it's not new but it's just not well known. But they have more pyramids in Sudan than they do in Egypt and that's a fact. Now, the ones, the actual pyramids in Sudan, they're not as tall and they're used differently. They're used more like headstones. They're still tall, they're not little headstones, they're used more like headstones. They're still tall, they're not little headstones, they're still tall. And they're buried. Kings, people of royalty, were buried there as well. They were buried under the ground.
Speaker 2:They were buried inside the pyramids, but they were buried under the ground. They were buried inside the pyramids, but they were buried, and they had their gold and their silver, all their jewelry, all these expensive items, inside these pyramids. Well, there was an Italian explorer. Well, there was an Italian explorer and he went and, after they had discovered the pyramids, he started chopping them down, the tops of them, for the gold and the silver and the jewelry, etc. So he goes around mutilating them.
Speaker 1:Did he get away?
Speaker 2:with the treasures. Yes, he got away with it because no one's protecting them. No one's protecting them. No one's protecting them Like they. Well, they've done. They've stole, often stole a lot from the ones in Egypt as well, but not to the extent as the ones in Sudan, but they still have loads of Sudan. They still have loads of them still there and they still have temples. They still have loads of them still there and they still have temples. They still have these beautiful ruins and artifacts. They still have all of that still there.
Speaker 2:But when he was from Italy, he was an Italian and so when he found all of this wealth in these pyramids, then other people started coming in and chopping down the tops of them, but, as I said, they're still there. Some of them have been abused to the fact where the tops are gone, but they're still there and they're still beautiful to see. And the temples are still there and some of you know they have, you know, these different statues etc. They're still there, but they don't have protection. You don't have tour buses going to their site like you do in Egypt, and so that was interesting to me. That was very interesting. So I said, if someone were to read my book. If they don't recall or remember anything else, I want them to remember those pyramids, because people have put so much, the world has put so much emphasis on those pyramids in Egypt, and I want the world to know that those black Kushite kings and people erected those beautiful pyramids and temples. And it's controversial now who built pyramids first? Wow, were they the Egyptians? Or the Kushites? Who built the first? It's controversial right now. So that was interesting, and so then, if we go to the now, this was really fascinating to me as well. All of it is. That's why I enjoy writing and I enjoy history.
Speaker 2:Now, the Trans-Saharan we all know about the Trans-Atlantic slave trade. But you know, people have been trading slaves since the beginning of time. Okay, and in Egypt, you know, they were trading slaves In Cush. They were trading Because what they would do, they would trade goods. Trade was a big commodity all through the continent Trade, all through the continent Trade. So what they would trade, you know what they have or what they need to someone else, but trading, they were constantly trading. And so when and they were always in conflict different tribes would have different conflicts, and so if they conquered a group of people, or if, if they had a war and they had prisoners of war, they would trade them.
Speaker 2:Now the Arabs, they took over Africa, they invaded North Africa and there was quite a bit of abuse that occurred from the Arab people and so many of those people had to flee North Africa. And when they were fleeing North Africa, who do you think they might have been traveling to? Many of them? Where were they headed? Now, come on, teacher, tell me, many of them would travel north or south. I'm sorry, many of them would travel south. So if they wouldn't convert, if people wouldn't convert to their religion, the Muslim religion, then they would be terrorized and abused, often even killed, and abused, often even killed. So I'm going to get back to this group of Berbers.
Speaker 2:And these Berbers, they became traders where they were trading for people in the northern regions of Africa. Now, these Berbers, they came, they were integrated, they were biracial. Many of them were biracial. Not all of them were biracial. Some were more biracialacial, like we have everywhere, and many of them were biracial because of the trade, because they were trading people from the southern regions of Africa, they were trading them with the northern. So that's why many of them were biracial and that's the reason why many of the Egyptians were biracial because of the trading. All right.
Speaker 2:So the Berbers, they became very, very involved in this Trans-Sahara trade. Now, you know, this is the hottest desert in the world, and so they were trading black, and that's another thing. In my book I don't use the term black, white, yellow, because during this time period people were identified by their tribe or their country, so I never used the term black in my book. So they were training people from West Africa and up to North Africa through this transatlantic trade. It was advantageous for West Africa as well as it was for North Africa, because they were sharing. Now West Africa was able to develop empires. We had the empires. We had the empire of Ghana, which was the first big empire, the empire of Mali and Shanghai, all right.
Speaker 2:So now, with these empires, these Berbers were bringing religion. They were the go-between. They were like the go-between the West and the North African continent or countries I'm sorry countries, I'm sorry countries. So what they did? They would carry the gold because they had gold mines in West Africa. West Africa was trade their gold with the North African groups of people in the North region, and so when they would trade, they would trade for salt, because they needed salt, because it was so hot, so supposedly it was because of salt. But they would also trade other items as well. But one of the big items that they would trade, next to the gold, were the people, because you know, they were always in war, you know, one tribe against another tribe.
Speaker 2:So, whoever you know, that's how they would have these tribal conflict, but what their preference were, it wasn't the men, the preference were the women. They did not have plantations up north, in the northern parts, regions of Africa. They were using the women primarily for domestics, for concubines, but they also were sharing their religion, the Muslim religion. The Berbers were bringing the Muslim religion to Africa, to West Africa, okay and so, and they were following some of the rules and regulations that are in the Koran, where they could have more than one wife, where they could have relationships with other women and they could have concubines, and so I have excerpts in my book that align with what was going on as far as their relationship with these women.
Speaker 2:But these women were the ones that were primarily had to track through the Sahara Desert, going to the northern regions, and when they get there, many times more than none, they were having children, absolutely, and so you know they were having children and you know who they were having children with.
Speaker 2:And so that's why many of those people that you see in those northern regions Arab people, many of them have African characteristics or West African characteristics, physical characteristics and this went on for many years African characteristics, physical characteristics and this went on for many years. It's not as obvious as others, because this is ancient time and this continued all the way to about the 14th or 15th century with this trans-Saharan trade. So it was interesting to me, trans-saharan trade. So it was interesting to me about the Arab Muslim influence in West Africa and how it helped to develop their empires and how wealthy those African empires became. And basically they were the kings and they had documentation from these different Arab Muslims, their writings, because this is where they're getting their information. The information is coming from their writings that they wrote, because they had diaries, travel logs, and that's where much of the information is coming from what they wrote. So have you ever heard of Manamusa?
Speaker 1:I don't think so. Heard of Manamusa I don't think so.
Speaker 2:Well, he was one of the kings, west African kings, from the kingdom of Mali. Well, he was so rich with gold because all those kingdoms, they were extremely wealthy and so they had become Muslims and they would go to Mecca. But, Manimusa, he would flaunt his wealth and he would have and this is what was written by some of these travelers they would write and record what was going on, what they saw and what they experienced, just like now when I go on trips, and even now I write in my diary Sure, and that's what they did. So he went to Mecca. So he went to Mecca and they said he had, they said, thousands, I don't know. It was a large group, he had an entourage, he had loads and loads of gold and he had slaves because, you know, they had their slaves, the kings had their slaves. He had slaves because, you know, they had their slaves, the kings had their slaves. He had all his slaves. He had all his people, his assistants, and they had all these groups that were going to Mecca and these bags and bags of gold. He was flaunting his gold, his clothes, he had all his fancy clothing, he had all of his fancy clothing. And so now this is documented in these logs by these Muslim explorers, but they also have a map. So when he was passing out gold, he went to Egypt. He was passing out gold. He was passing it out to people walking down roads and different things. He was just flaunting this gold.
Speaker 2:That gold struck an entrance past Africa to Europe. Everywhere else. They said look at all this gold. So it was a map maker from Europe. He was from Spain and he drew. This happened around in the 13th century, okay. And he drew this happened around in the 13th century, okay. So he drew a map and in this map he drew a picture of Manamusa with the gold and the crown and all this wealth around them on a throne, and he has Timbuktu, because Timbuktu was in the kingdom of Mali. Another thing these countries, these kingdoms and what we see as Mali or what we see as Ghana, it encompassed a larger area, because this is before the invasion of the European and they started cutting it up. So anyway.
Speaker 2:So when they saw these Europeans, when they saw this picture of this Manamusa and all this gold, musa and all this gold, and heard stories about him, that made them interested in Africa, that made them more interested in West Africa. You know, I've always heard of that term, black gold because initially they were looking for the gold gold and discovered they could make more money off of the black gold at that particular time. But that was history, and so then I went on to Ethiopia and it was the same with Ethiopians the Arabs, you know. Most of the time when you hear about or read about Ethiopia, you hear or read about the Christianity aspects of Ethiopia. But there is almost half of the population in Ethiopia are Muslims, so they have a very interesting story as well With Muhammad. When he first started his religion, you know, people, the Arab people, were not receptive to Muhammad, so he had to escape, to escape, and he ended up escaping with a few of his followers to Ethiopia. Now, I was really stunned with that aspect of it. Can I share something with you?
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Yeah, I was going to actually elaborate on that.
Speaker 2:Because I had read a book on Islam. This before I started writing this book. I had a book on Islam and I read where Muhammad came to Ethiopia and I'm saying what you know it was a shock to me, but it's in their Quran and they were there for protection and they were there for protection for a few years while he established his followers until he was able to branch out and establish and grow his religion. So in my book I have the various dynasties in Ethiopia and again it's always this conflict and it's pretty much the same all over the world. I mean there's conflict going on right now with Russia and Ukraine and there's conflict in Israel and Palestine. I mean it's always been some conflict between these various countries. So even in Ethiopia there were these different conflicts, these different problems, and I write about them in my book. I'm not going in depth about them right now, but when you read my book then you would have a clear understanding.
Speaker 1:Well, I get that. We know conflict comes when people either don't understand or don't want to conform. Someone always wants to be the leader, whether they were there first or last.
Speaker 2:Right, and that's the problem that they have, because it was about being the rulers. Absolutely, the conflict was being who was going to be the ruler. Absolutely, the conflict was being who was going to be the ruler, and that was their biggest problem that they had. It was at one time. There were family members Well, they've always even family members because they want to take over too and there's conflict between siblings and and parents. But there's one instance where they had a. They would lock people up in a mountain they couldn't leave to keep them from trying to come down and causing conflict with the ruler, and they had guards to keep them up in the top of this mountain.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was going to ask you how you keeping me locked up in a mountain. You must not want me to come down.
Speaker 2:They weren't able to come down Okay. I was like now how is that going to work?
Speaker 1:Unless you're just keeping me from coming downstairs, you're going to keep me locked up in a mountain.
Speaker 2:Right. And I don't know how high that mountain was, but that's how they kept them up there. It was like a prison and if you read the book, you know you read the book. Then you would know specifically.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then the Bantu, the Bantu people, now the Bantu. They started in West Africa and they traveled thousands of years. They were traveling east and they were integrating with people as they traveled east. So I thought that was interesting. Remember, we used to learn about the Bush people and they actually were called the Sand People. Sure, the Sand People, the sand people, and so the Bantu people. These were the ones coming from West Africa. As they traveled east, they would mix with these other groups of people and so they developed dynasties See, my focus in the book were the dynasties, all the great accomplishments these people made before the invasion of the Europeans.
Speaker 2:I wanted to focus on that aspect. What they built, and so the Bantuantu, they were these strong, mighty people. And so then I have the Maasai in Kenya, and I noticed that more and more people are traveling to this region now and with East Africa, what they did and I kept this part because I thought this was relevant, because not so much of the foreigners coming into Africa, it was Africa going into these other areas such as India and China they were trading across the Indian Ocean. There was heavy trading across the Indian Ocean, and so there are people of African descent in those other countries because of the trade, and the trade was the same situation. They were trading.
Speaker 2:Now, the Arabs always focused on the women primarily, and that was just primarily and that was just primarily. But when they started going east, they would have the men as well, and even in the western, when they were trading across the Sahara, they would have men also, but the focus were on the women. That was their preference. And the men, they would use those as a unit, you know, they would use them as guards, mm-hmm. They would use the men as guards. Okay, to guard the women, oh, yeah, because they would castrate them. Okay, that's what they did to the men when they were crossing the Sahara, and they did it also when they were crossing the Indian Ocean. So I have in the book, I have the San people, and they were considered the indigenous of East Africa. That's where they find all these ruins, all the ancient ruins, where they said, where civilization began. It's where the Sand People were living.
Speaker 1:Well, it is important to know history, especially in any individual's history, because it doesn't begin with you, it doesn't end with you. You know there is something beyond what you were told, and once you research, you get a better representation than what may have been watered down or retold in a different way. So it's best to know it for yourself.
Speaker 2:Well, very true, and you know what? It changes your whole perspective of life, and I can see that.
Speaker 1:I can see that.
Speaker 2:You'll see people. You'll see places that other people won't see. Your whole perspective will be totally different.
Speaker 1:And you know you always have those relatives who have these stories, but they can only go so far, whether they are really doing it to entertain you or to give you a history lesson. They can still only go so far if they have not done the work, the research. Put it in and with that putting it in it's just as what you have done so eloquently as put it in your books, so that people can basically see it as they read it, and it's nothing wrong and it is better if you have a visualization of what you're reading. It captures the heart to me better when you can visualize.
Speaker 2:Very true. It says hidden a lot. Hey, that's the title Hidden History. And I even discovered a group of Jewish Bantu Jewish people, and it has been researched and if you look at these people and if you look at these people, you would never see any aspect of what a traditional Jewish person would look like. And they're located in South Africa and they've had DNA done.
Speaker 2:See, now there's DNA Research. People can tell what will have a better idea what countries you come from. It doesn't tell your race, but it does tell your country and how you connect with these people and these different groups and this one group of Jews. They call them the Limba, the Limba Jews, and all their facial characteristics are the same as a West African. And they've done the DNA research on these people and they discovered that they have the same DNA as some of the leaders of old Israel. Well, old Jewish people, people, and so the Jewish community have embraced these people because they could not deny the genetics of this group. They even named their blood type. Their DNA matches a Kohen hypotype, a priestly genetic marker found in ancient biblical Jews. So their DNA matches ancient biblical Jews. So their DNA matches, Okay, Ancient biblical Jews.
Speaker 1:So that was one of my findings. Well, dr Beth, just from the interview and you educating us today, it just goes back to reinforce the power of history and the purpose of history. It should not be diluted, it should not be taken away, because, guess what? You really can't, you really can't, you really can't take the history away and your hidden histories that you have shared with us today have been remarkable.
Speaker 1:So for you history buffs out there, she has several books that I'm sure she's more than willing to share with you all. There's the Afro-Latino Historical Journey and that's highlighting the African presence in South America. Then Silhouettes of the Past Growing up in Chicago during the 50s and 60s, pioneer African-American inventors with patents I bet that is exceptionally interesting. A heritage of Black excellence in Chicago, book one, and that's from 1700 to 1960. Then A Heritage of Black Excellence in Chicago, book two, 1960 to 2009.
Speaker 1:And she also has how to Help your Child Succeed in School, which empowers parents to help their children achieve academic success with practical solutions, activities and resources that are research-based. So it's just not something she thought about. It's things that she has researched and done and, from her bio, she is a doctorate of education, she has a master's in master's in arts and administration and supervision. So she has a wealth of knowledge. She has put in the work, she has done the time. She's still working on this. So for you, history buffs, I just would encourage you to get copies of her book and tell us where they can find your books, dr Bess.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm on Amazon and, for those that are in the Chicagoland area, I'm at the DuSable Museum of African American History.
Speaker 1:And they can best find you under your name.
Speaker 2:Dr Leslie Best. They can contact me at Bexley Books Okay, bexleybooks at gmailcom.
Speaker 1:If you would put that in the chat, that would be great.
Speaker 2:And then also Bexley on Facebook. Bexley Bexley Books on Facebook and Instagram.
Speaker 1:That would be great. Now, do you have any closing remarks that you would like to leave with the audience?
Speaker 2:Well. I just want, I would like, my audience to embrace history and share history with their family and friends. I think it's very relevant that our children know their history and learn to embrace history. We don't always have to expect schools to teach our history. When I was growing up, my mother always gave me some historical information, and I suppose that's the reason why I appreciate history so well now.
Speaker 1:And that is wonderful. There has to be a beginning to seeking knowledge and displaying and working on your craft, so that in itself is great. But you didn't just stop there, you continued on, so you have a wonderful legacy. Now let me ask this one question what year did you go to Egypt, or have you been more than once? Pardon me, what year did you visit Egypt, or have you been more than once?
Speaker 2:What year was I a teacher?
Speaker 1:In Egypt.
Speaker 2:Oh, in Egypt. Oh, okay, what year was that? It was? I think it was like 20. I also remember these days. I also remember these days and you know, actually when I was there, they were about to have a revolution. I think it was around 2012. It was around 2012. And we had Secret Service was with us. Everywhere we went was Secret Service was with us, everywhere we went was Secret Service.
Speaker 2:And about two weeks after we arrived back home, a civil war actually developed and there was a coup. They removed the president of Egypt and we were watching it on CNN and we saw the guys there with the cameras and the pyramids. We saw them charging down the street. The Niles you know, we had gone on a nice boat ride along the Niles. It was a bridge. We could see them crossing the bridge, all these familiar places that we had seen. People were killed. They literally was fighting. People were killed. They literally was fighting. And so, like the day that we got, I think about a day or two before we arrived, they had bombed a Christian church and so after that it was boiling up. They were anti-government. So the people of Egypt was fighting because they were opposing the government. They say they were being abused, so I believe it was 2012. Okay, I guess you asked one question. No, no, no.
Speaker 1:When you do history, you do it well Okay. When you do history, you do it well OK. It has been an absolute pleasure to have you on today on Gentry's journey. The topic Hidden History you unveil quite a bit. I do appreciate it all. I'm sure the audience did as well. They can find you on Amazon, on Facebook, bestly's book, Dr Leslie Best. Thank you so much. Thank you, and you have a wonderful evening.
Speaker 2:You as well.