As the UAE welcomes COP28, in this special episode, the Aeolian Sands team meets Fatma Al Khayat, an urban planner who is shaping Abu Dhabi, the UAE's capital.
From climate change to vernacular architecture, from biophilic design to building a utopia - this episode explores what makes a perfect city that is liveable and sustainable.
Don't forget, you can get in touch with the Aeolian Sands team by emailing info@dukemir.com
Host: Jonathan Ivan-Duke
Special Guest: Fatma Al Khayat
Producer: Mir Murtaza Khurshid
As the UAE welcomes COP28, in this special episode, the Aeolian Sands team meets Fatma Al Khayat, an urban planner who is shaping Abu Dhabi, the UAE's capital.
From climate change to vernacular architecture, from biophilic design to building a utopia - this episode explores what makes a perfect city that is liveable and sustainable.
Don't forget, you can get in touch with the Aeolian Sands team by emailing info@dukemir.com
Host: Jonathan Ivan-Duke
Special Guest: Fatma Al Khayat
Producer: Mir Murtaza Khurshid
Welcome to Aeolian sands, and it's the start of a new series of programmes, where we'll be getting deeper into conversation with some of the change makers across the Middle East. Today we're focusing on how urban planning can shape our attitudes, behaviours, and impact on the world around us when it comes to the environment. Every year, humans emit somewhere between 37 and 45 billion tonnes of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. Humanity has caused surface temperatures around the planet to warm by 1.14 degrees Celsius since the late 1800s. And that warming has increased at a rate that we haven't seen for 34 million years. With cop 28. On the horizon, the leaders of countries and conglomerates from around the world will descend on the UAE and they're going to be trying to assess how we can get back on track for net zero by 2050. The way we live in the cities and towns we call home will play an increasingly important part of addressing those challenges. To help me unpick this huge topic. I'm joined by Fatma Al Khayat who plays a key role in the urban planning of the UAE is capital, Abu Dhabi. Fatma, thanks so much for joining us.
Fatma Al Khayat:I know thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here today.
Jon Ivan-Duke:So tell us a little bit about what your work
Fatma Al Khayat:Okay, so basically, I am an urban involves. planner. And I am an urban planner, by education and by profession. So I spent about seven years in London. That was where I completed my bachelor's and my master's and I did it purely in city park, city planning and city design.
Jon Ivan-Duke:Why did you decide to get into urban planning?
Fatma Al Khayat:Okay, so interesting question. So I come from a very multi multicultural background. So my dad's from the UAE, and my mom is half Egyptian, half Austrian. And so I think growing up in and being exposed to many different cultures, growing up and different religions as well connected me to cultures and gave me a certain kind of perspectives on different cities, different cultures in a very, very different way. And to add to that, growing up in a fast pace, you know, a city that was developing at a very, very fast pace, like Dubai, really pose so many questions for me in terms of what is our relationship, you know, to our spaces? How do we, you know, what is our sense of belonging? How can What is the meaning of, you know, to live to interact with one another, you know, because it was really interesting Dubai, it's invited an influx of almost 200 Different cultures. So I feel like for us Emirati is, it was really difficult for us to kind of find our footing while this development was happening. And you know, so again, it was posing a lot of questions around what is our relationship to the city, and I always had this fascination for architecture, you know, we come from a family of designers actually, when I went to London, urban planning wasn't really it's a new field, actually, people who actually do urban planning would do it in their masters. But by the time I got to London, it was something that was happening even during bachelors. So I tend to do, I tended a lot of university fairs. And, you know, urban planning just kept coming up. And what I loved and found very fascinating was, it wasn't just about the designing of the city, but it's about how we programme it for the people. And I think that was where I was really, really drawn, because it was not just about, you know, the spaces, but it was also about the psychology of trying to complement spaces to the needs, the needs of the people, because
Jon Ivan-Duke:I think, you know, perhaps people think of urban planning, they just think, okay, it's, it's how buildings designed or how they fit together. But it's more than that, isn't it? It's more about how you create a cohesive environment and society and community.
Fatma Al Khayat:Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, look at urban planning, you know, when I look at it, it's such multifaceted field. It's, it's, you know, an amalgamation of many different things. It's, you're looking at the social aspects of the city, you're looking at the economical aspects of the cities. You're looking at the environmental aspects of the city, you know, so you're, you're you're always factoring and many, many different things and depending obviously, also on the project that you're handling is, you're going to look at different factors.
Jon Ivan-Duke:How do you build a successful city? I mean, it's, there are so many different heritage and traditional cities around the world. places like Dubai have been around for a lot shorter period of time. But how do you actually build and grow a city successful city, we probably can learn from the mistakes of the past in building places like Dubai and Abu Dhabi. What would you do about building and growing that successful city that the utopia if you're,
Fatma Al Khayat:you know, using that word success is, is very, very tricky. You know, because success, as you were saying has many different has many different faces. So, you know, when you're really thinking about the success of a city, it's like, what are we really celebrating? Are we celebrating the environmental factors of a city? You know, is the, you know, is it successful when a city can finally not be dependent on cars, you know, on petrol cars, is that what makes us successful? Is it the economic prosperity, like a city like Dubai? Is it architectural identity, you know, when we go to cities like Rome and Milan,
Jon Ivan-Duke:and my favourite city is Rome?
Fatma Al Khayat:Oh, really? So yeah. So it's like, you know, when you go to Rome, because you have that, you know, you know, that yearning feeling to connect to, to history to a different time, you know, it really tells a story. So it's always, you know, or is it all the above? You know, so it's, it's a very tricky question to kind of answer, because each city is a case study on its own. And I think that's what really makes it interesting. Because, you know, there's a learning like you were saying, there's a learning from each city, urban planning is complex, and it's multifaceted requires a multifaceted endeavour. So it's a very multi kind of scalar approach, you know, when we're designing or looking at a city. And the way we approach city now, nowadays, is that we're not just looking at the challenges that are happening from a local point of view. But it's actually from a national point of view. From sorry, from a global point of view, from a national point of view, and then from a local. So what are we? What are we facing today on a global? So
Jon Ivan-Duke:you're, you're almost thinking about what's the big impact? Yeah, first, rather than, you know, the smaller scale.
Fatma Al Khayat:Exactly. And you know, why we do that is because, nowadays, it's all about, and I think this is the key, you know, for talking about success is the long term sustainable planning. So, as an urban planner, I'm not thinking, Oh, how do we build a city that or a building or an area that will be able to sustain itself for the next generation? No, it's for the next 200 years, you know, because we're fighting against a really big fight, which is climate change. Now, that's what's happening on a global scale,
Jon Ivan-Duke:we'll definitely get into that. The closest I've come to building any city has been when I played the computer games SimCity. I don't know if you ever played. And one thing that you sort of, if you've ever played that game, you want to have an economically viable city one, which is financially successful, but also one, which keeps the citizens and residents happy. Yeah. And in order to do that, you need this this wonderful mix of business that's going to create GDP, industrial areas, but also parks, entertainment, beautiful residential communities, how did urban planners know what the right mix or right balance of that is?
Fatma Al Khayat:It depends on on how we're intervening a space. So of course, we work a lot with data. So sometimes the data that we collect helps us define a problem, or vice versa, we have a problem at hand. And then we started collecting the data that, you know, necessary to help us, you know, will build or, you know, address the challenge or the problem that we have at hand. So the type of data that we look for really, you know, revolves around two things, we've got demographics, so we analyse data to understand population trends, income levels, and that helps us in return, to identify and determine housing needs, and, you know, relevant services that we require, such as, you know, the community facilities, parks, and so on and so forth. We also look at economic data, so employment rates, types of employment, industry sectors, we look at income distribution to identify opportunity, you know, for business and industrial development. So we really, really work with data. But, you know, again, so it really depends on how we're approaching, you know, a project. Yeah,
Jon Ivan-Duke:I just pick up one thing that you said though, which is to kind of connect those two, you said that it's going to you look at 200 year timeframes, yeah, building a city, the economies of countries and the way that they develop the industries, the jobs that are created, obviously comes into your planning decision, but the way that people are going to be probably 200 years from now, we don't even know what that's going to look like even 10 years from now, with the advent of artificial intelligence and generative AI, machine learning, all these kinds of areas which are nascent and becoming increasingly important, the rapidity of change. It's so dynamic. How could you possibly factor in such, you know, change and dynamic nature of industries and jobs and, and the way people are employed into into that planning? So,
Fatma Al Khayat:usually what we do, so I'm sure you've heard of the 2040 plan. So this is what kind of cities do they they draft and create comprehensive plans that create a certain kind of vision that could foresee into the next 2030 years. And these plans are, you know, they set an overall vision of the city, they set an overall vision of the city, but then they're also adaptable and changeable, they're supposed to be there. And this is what urban planners come in to do. We are responsible for continuously evaluating the city's progress. And based on that we implement, you know, the changes that we have, you know, that we have at hand. So it's as
Jon Ivan-Duke:much to do with planning for the future, but also adapting? Yes, absolutely.
Fatma Al Khayat:And, you know, we're, we're more more looking into, you know, rather than demolishing and constructing, demolishing and constructing it's like, thinking about, how can we use the, you know, the places that we have attend, and we call that adaptive reuse or repurposing, so that's kind of how we can, you know, retrofit, whether whether what, whatever programme that we need, you know, at that point in, in time, and I think, like a good example, to give as well, is the way we, the way we work today is very, very, very different than how we used to work 20 years ago, we, you know, it was very much of a pragmatic lifestyle where people used to go to their offices, office buildings were very, very important. But now a lot of people can work from home. So that makes us as well question, you know, what, what, like, it makes us question and think about how we can use office buildings today. So maybe a lot of office buildings are gonna go redundant, you know, so it's how can we use these spaces in a way that's efficient? For our needs to date? Maybe changing them into co working spaces?
Jon Ivan-Duke:Yeah. You know, I think thinking about examples in Dubai, particularly thinking around somewhere like alserkal Avenue. Yeah. Which has been turned from Okay, would warehousing industrial space. And now, rather than people working in a industrial environment, people are sitting there in the coffee shops have asked colour Avenue, you know, on Zoom calls, and things like that. So it's fascinating how things can be adapted. Creating a desirable city, oh, isn't just about making sure that it's economically viable. It's also about sustainability. And that's a key area that we want to kind of talk about today. Whose responsibility though, is it to ensure that communities and buildings are sustainable? Does it come from the top down? Or is it down to individual developers of projects,
Fatma Al Khayat:you know, the responsibility is a has to come from both perspectives. And sustainability is such an important topic, the topic today, it's a very, very hot topic. And if you are a good developer, then you really need to factor in sustainability. But more than that, it has to start at the planning level. And what I mean by that there needs to be policies in place to bind these developers to ensure that they create buildings or design buildings or spaces that are sustainable for our future. So once these, you know, planning code codes are legally binding, I feel that puts that the extra, you know, pressure on the developers to deliver that kind of a vision. So obviously, the responsibility has to come from both ends. But there are things that we can do at, you know, from a very top from a top tier level that can really motivate these developers.
Jon Ivan-Duke:So it's creating that framework at the top end and making sure that developers are in line with that. Okay, so let's say you've you've planned this incredible utopia of a city. I
Fatma Al Khayat:love that you keep using the word utopia. Is there a reason for that? Well,
Jon Ivan-Duke:I mean, you think of it is a perfect place, right? And I guess no city is perfect. Yeah. But you can always plan for it to be is as perfect as possible. It's then how people actually use the spaces. And it also needs to be designed, built and developed. When we look at some of the buildings across the UAE, we've got incredible examples. Yeah, thinking Louvre in Abu Dhabi. Wow, fantastic. Burj Khalifa, the most famous building in the world potentially. And we've, we could list many, many more, what will be on your checklist for what makes a great building.
Fatma Al Khayat:So, you know, all the buildings that you just mentioned, have something in common, which is the fact that they were designed by starchitects. That's what we call them in, in our world. That's the terminology we use. So really, really famous architects around the world. And the reason for that is, they really wanted to put the UAE specifically in Dubai, they really wanted to put Dubai on the map. So that was the vision that they had at the time, and we're talking back in the 70s. So I think it did the job, it did the job by bringing in that level of attraction. It they were conversation starters, they, you know, brought in a whole lot of attention. But I think for designing, you know, in my, in my, in my humble opinion, designing a building is I feel first of all, you know, we need to really empower local talent. So, designing a building by using local architects, you know, working with University is something that abroad, Zurich actually do quite very, very often and they do very, very well is when they want to design a new building, they actually host a competition. And that way, they bring in all sorts of different architects and developers. And we're talking even students from from university, and the whole purpose for doing so is to bring in the best design possible for that area of intervention or that project. And, and by doing so, you know, people really take into consideration the local context of where we're working. And I think taking that into consideration, looking at vernacular architecture is very, very important because it helps us as well tell the story of our country. And, you know, the UN kind of builds on the identity of the city. So Burj Khalifa really talks about a time when Dubai was developing, it talks about a very specific time. But it's we have a very few spaces in Dubai that really talks about our, our historical time.
Jon Ivan-Duke:That's fascinating. And you raise your IQ there. Zurich is obviously a very different city different place. The perhaps isn't the space the land. So they're probably not building as many mega buildings in Zurich, as they are here all the time that every every single week, there's a new project that's announced and fascinating ones and brilliant ones. But it's probably quite different. Here, though. You touched upon the needing the talent and bringing the grassroots talent to be to be part of the solution and the future. But you went to London to study? Yeah. Now, the obvious thing for me to connect that is, is Is there enough when it comes to developing the grassroots talent so that they don't need to go? Or is it a good thing that people do go to international cities to study so that they can learn different styles of architectural interest? Absolutely.
Fatma Al Khayat:And I think that's a really, really like, it's a very strong basis that we have, when it comes to urban planning. And when we're designing places and projects and whatnot, is the benchmarking that we do. You know, there's tonnes there's so much out there that we can learn from, but I think the key is, is whatever learnings that we take from abroad from other cities, is how do we to tweak it to fit the context of the UAE or whatever country that you're working with? And that was always you know, what? So going back to Dubai, what they did in the past was they actually deployed Western typologies to a context, you know, a weather that was very, very different a culture that was very, very different to the west, you know, and we can see it we can see it in the sense of the highways, you know, so it's very, very car centric. It's very car dominant. And whereas, when you look back to the roots, the, you know, the tribes that were based here in the UAE were very, very much in touch with nature in touch with the desert in touch with the sea. And, and as the city started to develop, people started to move more and more away from, from all of that. And then again, you know, you walk through Dubai, it's really talking. It's really like looking at a very, very shiny, new, modern, utopian, futuristic kind of city, which is also very, very interesting, but doesn't really tell you about the architectural history.
Jon Ivan-Duke:So do you think that the future of design perhaps across the Emirates will be more harking back to some of the heritage of the country?
Fatma Al Khayat:I hope so. I mean, Abu Dhabi is really, really focusing on that. There has been an initiative that has been announced just recently, which was urban planners, we're very, very proud of where they're, it's a it's basically about modern heritage. And the the term they call it modern heritage is because it was buildings that were built, not before 1800s. But night, let we're talking 50s And you know, and beyond, and they've locked around 64 sites as heritage sites. So that means that they are not allowed to be demolished, they are not allowed to be touched. And we're supposed to celebrate them as they make up the identity of, of Abu Dhabi. And I think, I think Abu Dhabi is really taking that route of really trying to focus on the cultural aspects, the heritage aspects. I mean, one of the oldest buildings actually sits in the middle of Abu Dhabi Island, which dates back to the late 1700s, which is very, very, very rare, which is called cluster AlHassan. I mean, if you ever go to Abu Dhabi, you should really, I don't know if you've visited it. I have Yeah. So yeah, so Abu Dhabi kind of has that different touch, I feel there's opportunity, there's opportunity for for that from that perspective, that that that heritage perspective.
Jon Ivan-Duke:Now, one of the big challenges that we obviously face in the UAE to take it in a slightly different direction is temperature, we have quite a special environment with its own challenges. Some of the Heritage designs that we've seen have helped create cooler, more habitable environments. Is that something that can be learned from when it comes to to the modern design of buildings and spaces
Fatma Al Khayat:100% 100% You have Masdar City, where they really took inspiration from vernacular architecture. And you know, just to define what vernacular architecture is, is basically historical architecture. That's what it means. And they heavily dependent on using wind towers, but they made it a lot more advanced. And they they designed the pathways using very, very narrow paths. So using those, you know, those two elements in conjunction with one another, actually brought down and because you know, the the narrow paths create wind tunnel, wind, wind tunnels, you creating air currents with exactly air currents and air ventilation, it actually brought the temperature down by six degrees Celsius. So if you're standing in the middle of Masdar City, it's six and let's say it's 40 degrees, it will be around 34 degrees, as opposed to standing in the middle of the city. Let's pick you know, where a road network in the middle of Abu Dhabi with no shading, you know, you've got high rise buildings, actually the temperature went up by four degrees Celsius. So it was hotter than it actually is. Because obviously there's no shading you've got the emissions, you know, there's congestion so that the temperature actually rises. And there's so so many other ways to kind of work with that. So there's I mentioned shading so working with changing makes a tremendous change, you know, effort and change and and lowering temperatures. And you know, we can you can use shading as well through biophilic features are using nature.
Jon Ivan-Duke:I was gonna say, biophilic, you've lost me what, what does this mean?
Fatma Al Khayat:So Biophilia is the theory of the fact that humans are is a concept that humans have this innate connection to nature. And we are we owe it no matter how much cities advance we are technologies advanced we will always have this longing to go back To nature because this is where we actually came from. So there's actually a concept and that we use or a terminology that we have when it comes to assigning places, or cities, where we call the biofit. Biophilia design, and when we refer to Biophilia design is, is in its simplest terms, green infrastructure. So using landscape and using trees, that is heavily heavily integrated into our city. And that doesn't just mean parks, it can be, you know, landscaping between a long, you know, pedestrian pathways, it could mean planted trees, it could mean green walls, it could also mean green roofs, you know, and all of that has a role to play. And also lowering temperatures,
Jon Ivan-Duke:one of our studies that we've done recently dive into green spaces, and we were looking at well being connected with green spaces. And we found that about half of people spend time every week in green spaces, more than 30 minutes, but half don't. And the question there arises, why? Why would somebody not want to spend time in nature, we know that it has multiple health benefits, yeah, both in terms of the physical, but also the mental well being as well. People, when we look into where, where people don't have access to around half, are within 15 minutes of a public park. So it's about the same, creating more access to green spaces, therefore, would seem to be a logical thing to do within the cities across the cameras. How can you build green spaces into the environments and make sure that's a key facet of the design of cities? So
Fatma Al Khayat:to answer that question, I'm gonna go back to the planning codes.
Jon Ivan-Duke:So don't don't switch off planning codes, we won't go we're gonna go too into it, you're not gonna
Fatma Al Khayat:I'm not gonna go to technical problems. However, you know, it's, it's because you were asking how do we ensure that we incorporate green spaces in in in the city? I'm going to tackle the question and in a few different ways, and you know, you were saying that half of people do not spend their time in open spaces. My question is, as well, you know, I'm sure you guys submitted a survey. I really am. I'm interested to know, when did you ask the the, you know, ask people, this specific question in your survey was, so this
Jon Ivan-Duke:particular data came from April, so you're kind of in the crossover season, maybe started to heat up a little bit? And I think you're right, I think in the depths of the summer months, when it's, you know, 45? Plus, yeah, you're probably going to find that less people are spending time outside, equally. In the winter, when it's a little bit cooler. Yeah, that figure may go up. But it's probably a good balance. It's a nice middle point in between.
Fatma Al Khayat:So I think a really important aspect is looking at accessibility and connectivity to these open spaces. You know, so it's a question of looking at, are they in close proximity to where people live? And if they are, then how are people are accessing these spaces? You know, does it mean that I have to jump into my car? Is it difficult to find parking? You know, if we create spaces or you know, a road network or pedestrian network, which can facilitate different kinds of transportation, active transportation, which makes it easier for people to access these spaces, I feel like the numbers would really go up. And then it's also about looking into, you know, the availability of these spaces. Does every community, does every neighbourhood have a park, you know, within reach? You know, there's there's that that that question. And are they public? Are they opened, you know, to everyone, because there was always that question around inclusivity versus accessibility, you know what I mean? So, yeah,
Jon Ivan-Duke:and actually, you've raised a great point. Globally, when it comes to the differentials in terms of income. Generally, the poorer demographics don't have so much access to green spaces. That's sort of global trends. The wealthier populace generally have more access to green spaces, both in their own homes and also the areas that they live in. How do you address that then in Abu Dhabi to me Make sure that no matter where what income level you're you're at, you have that access to public green space or places in nature, which you can enjoy. So
Fatma Al Khayat:I think that would be the, you know, the responsibility of the planning authorities, for them to ensure that you have that. So that I think the rate is for every 1000 residents you should have for access to four hectares of green space. So that's a that's I think, from the American Planning Association.
Jon Ivan-Duke:How big is it? A hectare?
Fatma Al Khayat:I'm not sure it
Jon Ivan-Duke:will look better. I'm trying to work out if it's if it's a football pitch, or if it's half a football pitch or whatever it is, perhaps not. Perhaps the production team can find that out whilst we carry on square metres. Okay. So it's, it's big, it's big. Okay,
Fatma Al Khayat:it's quite, it's quite big. But that goes to show you that the emphasis of how important open spaces, and again, so it's the planning authorities responsibility to ensure that the residents have access to open spaces, and Abu Dhabi has beautiful natural assets as well. So not only do they have Word open spaces, such as parks to work with, but they have the coastal line and the beaches to work
Jon Ivan-Duke:with a beautiful coastline, as well as some of the best beaches in the world. Okay, so you created a green spaces, you've got this city, which is got biophilic design, and it's really
Fatma Al Khayat:vernacular architecture. So all of this, you've created
Jon Ivan-Duke:a city and it's this is this is what it looks like. But now you've got to connect those spaces together. And I think one of the big challenges that we see is in terms of the transport infrastructure. Here in the UAE, we looked at this as part of our recent study, four in 10. People use public transport or carpool, nearly a quarter of driving electric or hybrid vehicles. Yeah, some of these trends are far in excess of other global cities, particularly when it comes to hybrid and electric vehicles. And half of residents live within a 15 minute walk of public transport. I personally think it might be a lot higher than that. I think that that may be a possibly an inaccuracy in the survey. Are you surprised by that? Do you think that? You talked about it being a driver first country, but actually people there's quite a lot of people already using the public transport that's available?
Fatma Al Khayat:Honestly, yeah. When I saw the numbers, I was quite surprised. But my question is, but when you say public transportation did that entail? The bus system, the metro, all of it?
Jon Ivan-Duke:Metro? Trams, potentially, oh, there aren't tonnes of trams? No, I mean, there's buses, anything like that? Not what wasn't included within that within that was was taxis. Okay. Yeah.
Fatma Al Khayat:That's not categorised under public transportation. Yeah, fair enough. I was quite surprised. But, you know, that also kind of that made me really reflect on the fact that there's so much opportunity and actually increasing these numbers. And there's a huge opportunity in us, you know, improving the public transportation that we have here in the UAE, because still, the majority has to depend on cars. This is where people are most comfortable here. The you know, it's not a usual or common practice where people come into Dubai and are like, Okay, we're going to use the metro to move from point A to point B, it's a very specific part of the population that actually uses you know, the the metro. So
Jon Ivan-Duke:how do you create that that plan then in terms of making sure that people are not just have access to things like like metros, or larger bus networks, but also micro mobility. We've seen it we've seen such a push towards more scooters, and bikes in various cities around the world. That appears to be a very good solution for shorter journeys.
Fatma Al Khayat:So the way we tackle that is we have to prioritise we have to prioritise that and we have to rethink about the streets that we have designed today. So, like you said, they're using short distances. So usually those points of interventions would happen in community neighbourhoods, or smaller communities across the city. And really, it's it's redesigning the streets that we have today. So it's creating shared paths. So it's not just about prioritising the cause, but instead it's also prioritising cyclists, and of prioritising, you know, that micro mobility that you mentioned. So scooters as well. And, you know, having in place a really good walking infrastructure and we are we are capable of doing so we are able that we are able to achieve it, but it's just a matter of prioritising that. So, you know, if you look at a city like Copenhagen, which I was there two weeks ago for the first time, and I was an absolute, or, you know, so Copenhagen for us as urban planners, it's a celebrity city, you know, because they were very, they were so successful in being able to give the city back to the people. And by that they were really able to, to create a city that is actually almost fully functioning on by cycling. So their cycling infrastructure is a very, very strong infrastructure. And to put it into perspective, more than 50% of the population of Copenhagen travels via cycles. Yeah, can you imagine? And they did a really good job. It's the you know, what I was just describing the shared pot path, they really did a good job at designing their street network that way. And again, Copenhagen was not a city that was designed for cyclists. It didn't start that way. That initiative started about, I think, 2030 years ago, no, 20 years ago, I would say, and it was a movement that was started by a really famous architects and city planner called young girl. And he's the one who started that initiative. And the initiative started very, very small. So it started across neighbourhoods at first. And then it started to grow until it completely dominated the entire city in totality.
Jon Ivan-Duke:How big How big is Copenhagen? I
Fatma Al Khayat:have known Copenhagen is quite small, actually.
Jon Ivan-Duke:Okay, so possibly, it's a good smaller use case. Yeah. You know, perhaps with a city, which is more condensed. Yeah.
Fatma Al Khayat:It has a population of roughly a million. So that's close to closer to Dubai, actually, in Dubai, it's also population of one 1.4 million. But yeah, Copenhagen is a is a small city, it's a condensed city, maybe that's why they were able to achieve, you know, a really strong cycling infrastructure across the city. But that does not mean we cannot do it, you know, for a city like Dubai, because Dubai is much more spread out. But, you know, if we really improve the cycling infrastructure and the Micromobility, that will also motivate people to use the bus networks and the Metro because I think the difficulty is actually getting to the bus. Now. You're, you're you know, you're close to a bus stop, or the nearest nearest Metro. That's where the challenge really lies. Because we have the systems in place, we've got the we've got the metro, we've got a bus system, but it's a matter of, again, accessibility, how do how easy is it to access these different systems?
Jon Ivan-Duke:Now, our trends have shown that that when it comes to green spaces, that this does improve wellbeing, but also, some global studies have identified that you don't actually need to be physically in a real world green space. They found that with Metaverse and realistic gaming environments, that people can find the same level of release and relaxation in those environments, as long as they have natural scenery in them. Do you think there's ever a time where we build metropolises like we've seen in films like Tron and Blade Runner, with no real care towards green spaces?
Fatma Al Khayat:I don't think that's a sustainable really way of, of living. You know, technology has aided us in many, many different ways. So, you know, it has helped helped us advance our cities in many different ways. But there's always that taught that same topic of conversation of how do we still, you know, connects people back to nature does always a topic of conversation that seems to come back, you know, because we kind of are living in, you know, a city like Dubai is very much futuristic. And now, you know, with the 2040 plan, that vision in place, the whole focus was increasing, you know, nature within the city. It came back to that aspect, you know, because, again, it goes back to that Biophilia theory that I was, you know, talking about earlier, which is we have this innate physical connection towards nature. I don't know how much the metaverse is going to help us in that and that aspects you know, we We're much more complex than that, as human beings much, much more complex, we need our sensors to be activated, you know, from a from a natural point of view.
Jon Ivan-Duke:So we've created let's say, we've created this amazing city. Now we've got the connected transport, and we've got the architecture, we've got the beautiful green spaces. One of the core themes of cop 28, is how we're going to reach net zero. In what ways do you see urban planning helping towards that that big, big goal?
Fatma Al Khayat:I think in so many different ways, I mean, cities are, I think the whole point or how cop 20 How the, you know, cop came about was because cities have become super, super, super polluting, they are the number one generators of carbon emissions today. So actually, urban planning, and city planning has a massive, massive role to play when it comes to achieving those, the net, net zero, target. And again, it comes from small scale interventions to large scale interventions. And we're talking about from the perspective of the way we design cities, and the policies that we have, you know, in place. And I think we talked a lot about many different initiatives that we can deploy in the city that could really really, you know, in a way where we could really achieve that. And again, it's like, by looking at going back to our roots and looking at vernacular architecture, incorporating natural elements into the city, you know, playing with nature, that's why also nature is very important, because it's going to help us fight this, this big, this massive fight that we're, you know, that we have that we're facing today. But yeah, urban planning has such a huge role to play in cop 28. We were we have a lot of responsibility from from that. And, and, you know, the topic of conversations I feel like with city planners, over and over again, is how do we reduce the use of cars on the roads, because that's as well, it's the construction, and it's the roads of the cars that we have on the roads that are really, really causing those emissions. So it's really a matter of how are we going to be able to shift that
Jon Ivan-Duke:it certainly sounds like urban planning is going to play such a huge role in in the way that we address the sustainable development goals of the world. And it's gonna be interesting to see what the world leaders are going to decide at COP 28, Fatma, thank you so much for chatting. today. It's been fascinating to hear about what you do and and perhaps how some of that's going to shape the world that we live in. If you'd like to read more of Fatma's thoughts on this fascinating topic, you can head over to dukemir.com on there, you can download the UAE environment and nature report. Please do that. And also like subscribe and share. You can follow @AeolianSands on Tik Tok.@DukeMir on YouTube and on Instagram we are @duke_mir. Thank you for tuning in and join us next time