Aeolian Sands
Aeolian Sands
In Conversation with Vernon D Cruz | Aeolian Sands - Ep 09
What does cheese have to do with cosmetics? Well, if you're a marketing ace like Vernon D Cruz, it doesn't matter on the industry, you'll still churn out success.
- Listen to the secret stories from Vernon's vast experience at major global brands like Unilever, Mondelēz, Estée Lauder, Colgate-Palmolive, The Body Shop and Alshaya Group
- Why countries like the UAE and Saudi Arabia are so exciting for marketers
- And, uncover what makes a great brand campaign (spoiler: experience is key!)
And, don't forget to follow us - @AeolianSands on TikTok and @duke_mir on Insta
This is episode nine of Aeolian Sands and on this week's episode, we'll be exploring the world of storytelling. We'll also look at where to spend your marketing dollars, and to help me do that. I'm joined by Vernon D Cruz, a 25 year marketing veteran. Great to have you on, Vernon.
Vernon D Cruz:Thanks for having me. Jon.
Jon Ivan-Duke:Yeah, really excited to get into this one. And before the cameras went live and the mics were turned on, I was having a chat with you around how I just think your name Vernon D Cruz. It's got, it's so powerful. It's some Which one, which you sort of really remember, yeah,
Vernon D Cruz:well, I'm not sure about the powerful aspect, but it is kind of unique. I get that a lot, but there's an interesting dynamic to it. So the D Cruise is Portuguese ancestry, because my grandparents, both Matilda and paternal, were from Goa, which was a Portuguese colony, and I was born in Pakistan, which is a really unusual name for Pakistan, because I'm Catholic minority there, and eventually immigrated to Canada. So being in different parts of the world, lived in Sri Lanka for a while, in the UAE and London as well. So yeah,
Jon Ivan-Duke:I'm really excited to get into your experience, because it has taken you all around the world, and you've kind of done lots of different sectors. We'll get into that into a moment. I'm the kind of person who tends to have lots of tabs open on their laptop. I've got apps open on my phone all the time. Are you the kind of person who is like that, or you the kind of person who's super organized, super neat, and you're always only have one tab?
Vernon D Cruz:Oh my goodness, no. I definitely do not have one tab. I have various tabs, various tabs, so I think on Chrome I just shut down maybe a couple, but I probably had maybe 12 to 14 open in the morning, and it's the same on my phone. You know, at times they're like 27 of them on the browser. And my wife, on the other hand, is also a marketer, but she's super organized, and, you know, she only has one open at one point in time, or maybe do.
Jon Ivan-Duke:Yeah, people are either one or the other. They tend to be the person who's like myself and a bit scattergun. And having lots of tabs open doesn't mean I don't know what's on them. I probably know everything that's on the tabs that's organized in my head. But if anyone else were to look at it and open it, yeah, wow, this is, this is all over the place. All right, cool. So let's get into it a little bit and a bit about yourself, what drove your your career path, because, as you said, you've you've kind of traveled the world. You've been in parts of Asia and the Middle East and Europe and North America. Tell us a bit about that career path and how it evolved, and what stopped, what started you out into this wonderful world of brand and marketing.
Vernon D Cruz:Well, I think I discovered I wanted to be in marketing at a fairly young relative age, if I remember correct. It was probably 18 or 19 at the time when I just began University. And, you know, I typically took science in my GCSEs. It was, it was it was dry, in my opinion, I liked it, but it was dry. So I was never a numbers person to begin with. Yeah, I learned numbers on the job, and that's fine when you're managing P and L's, but, you know, trigonometry and the whole thing was not my cup of tea. So when I got into uni, and of course, you know, you suddenly have from a spectrum of Fourier level subjects to, you know, dozens, which you're doing in uni. I think the inclination or the excitement happened in the whole business field, right? So I was doing an MBA, and I was really intrigued by the marketing one. I think what worked for him in my uni is that a lot of the marketing professionals were also CMOS, or, you know, leading companies, you know, the CEO of Gillette at that point in time. So there was a lot of inspiration coming from it just seeing people who are doing the job in reality, teaching you the subject and then, but naturally I get to, you know, when I used to drive, I used to analyze ads, analyze camps at a subconscious level, so it was kind of a no brainer for me, eventually that I wanted to be in the marketing arena. Unilever was always one of the companies. It was really Unilever Pepsi, except that Pepsi was in a different city, and I was quite fortunate to get in. It was, it was quite a competitive program, but quite blessed and humbled, you know, that I eventually got in. But I think that worked for me wonderfully, because Unilever is a classical, you know, the marketing school, so it was kind of an extension of my uni, and I was learning, you know, along the way. So I was with them four years in Pakistan. I was then got approached for a role in Sri Lanka on secondment, and I took that role as well. So I was in Sri Lanka for almost two years. And then, you know, a change in, well, not Korea, but a change in Job brought me to the UEE. So I was at craft. Then that became Mondelez, did that for around four years, and then got pushed into the world of beauty, where I joined the Estela company. So suddenly, from, you know, fast moving consumer goods and cheese, I was suddenly in the world of of beauty. So did that for a couple of years in the Middle East, then moved to Toronto with them as a marketing director, then Colgate Palmolive for. A while in Toronto, not a while. It was quite a while, around four years. And then moved to the UK, where I was global brand Director The Body Shop, and eventually fate bought me back to the buy post covid. So yeah, that's me in a nutshell. Yeah,
Jon Ivan-Duke:it's a great, a great sort of history. And I really like this sort of evolution of your career, from cheese into cosmetics. And, you know what? What can you, you know? What did you learn from, from, you know, selling, selling and marketing cheese, to being able to do the same kind of thing with cosmetics and beauty. What? What are the parallels?
Vernon D Cruz:Well, so, so, to layman, there probably aren't many parallels, but trust me, there are. So I think the two things that help me out there. So one is, at the end of the day, you're selling a product and commodity, the business principles remain the same, right? So you're looking at top line growth, you're looking at revenue, you're looking at market share, looking at compelling campaign, you're looking at attracting and retaining customers. So the principles, no matter what the brand, essentially remain the same. I think one of the reason why I was probably head hunted for this role was FMCG. Marketeers are kind of considered to be better marketers than most other sectors. And in the beauty world at that point in time, they did not have many and I was pushed for it. It was also ironic, because St Lauder, typically, was a family owned business, and they got, they got their first CEO who was non family from PNG. Ironically, this was 2009 when Fabrizio was appointed. He's still in the industry as a CEO, which is kind of unheard of, 15 years at being the level of CEO. But I think one of her bridges mandates was across all the markets. He wanted people from a similar industry to come and spearhead the marketing, and I think that helped my cause, and that's what I came on board for. Yeah,
Jon Ivan-Duke:I suppose the world of sort of FMCG, there's, there's nothing really more competitive, so you probably need to be at the top of your game in order to be able to excel in that arena. And obviously you have moved around in terms of location as well, as you said, and been in the Middle East on and off over the last sort of 20 years. How does it compare and how has it changed? I guess in that time between your experiences in North America and in Europe as well, how have you seen this region change
Vernon D Cruz:massively? And, you know, it's one thing coming, you know, after span of maybe nine years, back to the region. But even if I compare my first stint and my second stint, you know, I was here in Dubai for the first time in 2070 12, and the transformation there was, was mind boggling, right? You had to buy them all. Opening the Burj Khalifa, opening the metro, setting up the Palm Jumeirah. Opening, this is all during my first stint, and you come back now, and, you know, obviously we've gone through a cycle and a recession and everything else. But I think, as someone very rightly said, The only the you know, the only constant is change here, because nothing stopped them. You know, I funny story that stuck with me. And I was at a Trevor Noah show, and he was, you know, in typical Trevor Noah style, he was making fun of Dubai, and he was like, you know, God is walking with the Emiratis, and he walks into a desert, and, you know, the land stops by the sea, and the Emirati tells God, you know, we going to, we going to make something in the middle of the sea. And he's like, no, no, that's not the plan I get you. It stops here and says, Who? So it's just changing the dynamics, right? You know, think about it in very layman's terms. And, you know, I get a lot of this in the West, but Oh, Dubai is an artificial city. I mean, although it was a desert, you've made a magical Wonderland out of a desert. And how is that different from any city? Right? London has history, fine, but it's a city. Toronto is the same. New York is the same. It's a city, but there's so much here, more than the city. Like, you know, you can drive into one of these communities, yeah, and feel like you're not. You're in Europe, literally. So it's quite magical. But I think, you know the and I think this is, this is, you know, what I tell a lot of my team, complacency is the biggest fault of most people. So what I love about Dubai is that they go with these gigantic projects and and as soon as those are launched, they just want to know how they can up uplift the game even more right at a global stage.
Jon Ivan-Duke:And I think that's part of what makes being here in this part of the world, and it's not just Dubai, it's the whole of the UAE, Saudi Arabia as well, is really upping their game. What you talked about there, and, you know, going to the sea and then extending out, obviously, talking about, for example, the palm Yeah. And somebody raised a really, really good point with me a while ago. And they said, well, wouldn't it have been easier to just build the palm inwards that you've already got the land, and you just allow the water to come in as sort of canals, and they could have just reversed it. I thought, well, that's going to be so much easier than reclaiming the land out into the palm. But I think, I think it's, that vision and saying, Well, nothing's impossible, and that really does transcend everything that is done in this part of the world, and we are seeing it now into Saudi Arabia as well. The UAE has set the benchmark, and now, now Saudi's trying to sort of up their game and catch you up a little bit. And so. Of the Giga projects that are being done there are going to be hugely exciting. Now, when it comes to marketing in the Middle East, have you seen changes in that aspect? Because even in the seven years that I've been here in the region, I think it's changed massively. I think that the marketing game, public relations, communications, everything has changed. Part of that is a reflection of the technological change, which is globally relevant. But also, I think that the level of talent, creativity that's also driven forward in that period of time as well is that something that you've experienced
Vernon D Cruz:I have, and, you know, I'll just compare to buy one point 2.1 right? Two students here. I mean, the first time here was traditionally, you know, the the traditional marketing, right? So to span Arab television out of home, radio, TV, print, etc, in 2010 and when I joined St lawread, we were beginning to get into dialogs on on social, because Facebook and stuff prompted and was a matter of, you know, us celebrating how many likes we had on our page. That's how primitive it was. Then, right? You come around, this time around, and, you know, barely, I would, I wouldn't say barely, but you know, a significant chunk of that budget has gone away from traditional media, out of television as an example, onto social, and it's all about experience and interactions. It's not just, you know, I put a post, and it's not about the like, it's about the dialog that goes in with consumers. So I think that landscape has changed. There's a lot more emphasis on on the customer journey, in the in the in the virtual space, or on the E tailer space, and also in the in store space, right? A lot of malls now, I mean, we have fantastic malls, but football, I wouldn't say, is a challenge. Football is still there, but you need to constantly up your game as to how to get foot go into that store. Just
Jon Ivan-Duke:no 100% and you know, it's gone. It's gone from being these, these stores, which was you going you buy item, and now it's, it's a whole level of experience. And I think that's so exciting because, and that's been driven a lot by e Commerce and the Thrive of online retail, you know, I can just buy the item online. So the physical stores, they need to offer a little bit more. They need to make it more of a social experience, or something that's going to entice, Excite, and make you actually, physically get into your your vehicle, and go to that mall. And what they what they've built, is they've built all these incredible entertainment options as well food options, so you have a rounded experience when you go to the malls. And it is a mall experience here, I wasn't quite used to it. I'd never lived in North America. I'd seen it before when I when I'd gone and visited the States or Canada, and this idea of sort of mall culture and hanging out in malls, that just wasn't the case for me as a kid. But here it, you know the the concept, I think, partly to do with climate as well. You are able to go into a single space and experience everything that you know is off on offer, from retail to entertainment.
Vernon D Cruz:No, I completely agree. I think, you know, kudos to the mold managements here. I mean, you think about it, back in the day, you know, when one of the Emirates came up and people were talking about a ski slope, right? Quite a long while ago,
Jon Ivan-Duke:skiing in the desert, exactly, right?
Vernon D Cruz:Yeah. Great. PR buzz around the world, because it was covered in pretty much every country. But I think what these guys are brilliant at doing, and you know, I'll take math and eMAR malls as an example, is, you know, we talk about the customer journey for a brand. These guys really, and this is a long time ago. Thought about the customer journey within malls, right? Because you're coming for an event or to highlight it. And as you very rightly pointed out, you're there for so much more. You're there to eat, you're there to surrounding the events, right? You're there to shop, you're there to do your groceries, various other Oh, just hang out, watch a movie, etc. And it's phenomenal. You know, one of my favorite examples that I keep coding of late is, you take the example of Dior, right? As a brand, Dior is obviously a high end luxury brand, very aspirational, and for the vast majority of people, quite intimidating to come into a draw store, as is Hermes and various other brands interesting. But what they've done now is like, if you wanted to experience the brand your you would have to physically go into a store to do that right. And if you're intimidated, they wanted to take you away from that. See these gigantic pop ups that you have in Mall of the Emirates and Dubai Mall right in the center of the avenue, kind of where footfall happens, kind of gets you into that way. So you pass through it, you get to experience the brand. And you know what, maybe two out of 10 people would end up even buying something from them. So it's a phenomenal example of how you you take something that's part of the store and bring that, bring that experience to life and
Jon Ivan-Duke:and obviously, I think, you know, the retail sector has obviously changed a lot. We've we've gone from it all being kind of more based 20 years ago, when you when you first came to this region, and now most people are finding out what they want to buy. Online or on social media first. So when it comes to marketing, how do you think that you you demonstrate that creativity and either manage to sell things online or through the stores using creativity? Because 20 years ago, you know you, it was very much directed into, okay, go to this physical space, and this is what we're going to do. We're going to activate that space. Now you've got to activate it online. So a lot has changed in that time. What are your kind of learnings for how brands and businesses have done this successfully and managed to take typically, retail first to businesses and make them really successful online, too.
Vernon D Cruz:I think that there are a couple of things. So as you rightly pointed out, you know, the traditional norm for everyone was to go into a mall, experience a brand, try it on, and, you know, you go and do it. I think the landscape has evolved massively. So one of my favorite shopping apps as an example, well, two kipsons for groceries, owners for fashion, right? And what I love about Jonas is that you have hundreds of brands there, and I can filter right size, small, looking for a T shirt, blah, blah, blah, and it'll give me exposure to all of those brands. The department stores in Dubai are struggling, right? All the rest of the stores, the standalone stores, are doing fine, but the department stores typically have been struggling. So if I wanted to, I mean, give an example, if I wanted to go in and try on a pair of jeans, I would have to go to three different stores to get that look and feel and see what's right for me with these kind of apps that act as aggregators, what you go is you're exposed to dozens of brands, and you pick and choose what's there. And what's even more fantastic is their return and exchange policy, because the biggest ordeal was, you know, I'll buy it, and what if it doesn't fit, right? This is easy returns. And that's just, that was just game changing in the industry. Yeah,
Jon Ivan-Duke:I personally, I have a real distaste for returns. I think it's hugely wasteful when it comes to the environment and sustainability. You know you're and I see it and you know you order something, okay, let's say it's clothing. You try it on. Doesn't fit, all right? I'll just contact that driver, who will come and pick it up. And as you say, the convenience aspect is there, but I also think it's encouraged a behavior. I think typically, people would have gone into the store they find the right size, and that's the one that they would buy, and the returns would have been much, much lower. Now, well, it doesn't matter. I'll just order 10 of these things, or maybe I'll order three of the same thing, just because I don't know which one I'm going to be, whether I'm a medium or a large or whatever it happens to be, and you order, you end up ordering it, and you end up almost certainly returning at least one of those items within there. So it increases the number of journeys that those vehicles are doing on the road. And obviously, if they're electric vehicles, no problem. But I think there's, there's a huge number of vehicles on the road that potentially it could be reduced if you just had better technology that enabled people to do the virtual try ons, which is something that they're now doing, and I think it's a super innovative and exciting area. Also, you've obviously worked in beauty, and now with with beauty, you've got the sort of virtual try on so you can see what it's going to look like on your face. So again, it's going to help in terms of reducing the number of items that you're purchasing and not using or wasting.
Vernon D Cruz:I agree and that technology exists, exists. It's evolving, but it exists both in the space of beauty and also in the space of fashion. And it'll be increasingly more common to see the look and feel of how it looks on you from a fashion perspective. And I agree with you on sustainability. Some may argue on the counterfeit that, yeah, I'm driving to a mall and driving back anyway, but I get it. I get it, you know, I think it's, it's a matter of maybe a bad habit where people are doing exactly as you mentioned, buying two or three different options, knowing that they're probably going to give one of the three and returning two. And that, I think, is it's kind of an abuse of the system. Because, you know, sustainability to that thing is, is an evolving trend and increasingly getting more important in this region. You know, it's picked up a lot in the West, but of late, we are in a lot of buzz around that. So, yeah, I think that's going to be more important.
Jon Ivan-Duke:And I think obviously another thing that comes into account is also behavior in the Middle East. I think, you know, typically it's been a cash on delivery kind of place that's shifted. And what we've seen with the E commerce businesses we work with is that that shift from cash on delivery. It's almost skipping cards, skipping, you know, using your visa or your MasterCard, or whatever it is, it's kind of skipping that and it's going straight into buy now, pay later. The Buy now pay later is taking that chunk of cash on delivery. So we're seeing cash on delivery shrinking, shrinking, shrinking. But buy now, pay later, but. Maybe getting towards, you know, 25% of purchases on E commerce stores and and growing all of the time. The players, and homegrown players like Tamara and Tabby, they've, they've really driven things forward in that regard. And I think again, that's shaping people's behavior. They know well, if I, if I buy this on, buy. Now pay later. I'm not paying anything up front, and I think that's both driving an uptick in purchase of items, which perhaps they typically might have waited and saved to purchase, but also, you know, taking that aspect of the cash on delivery. Okay, if I don't like it, I'm just going to return and I haven't, nothing's come out of my account,
Vernon D Cruz:no, 100% and I think the the advantage of that is is twofold. So one is obviously liquidity and cash flow. I mean, I might find, you know, a t shirt that I was looking for for the longest time, and suddenly on sale. And why should I wait to buy it? And now I can, right? And the outflow is spread over three months so, and it's no interest to me. So why would I? Why would I not do it for perspective, and that also, from a retail perspective, helps increase basket size, because if you know, if your spends are going to be spread out over three months, why would I not buy more and, you know, indulge more. So I think it's kind of a win win for both. And you know, it's probably what we noticed in the retail sector. It's particularly more in in a couple of areas. So a high end furniture, for instance, is one, because those are bulky, bulky items, and you do see a lot of it in fashion as well. So yeah, those are the two big ones, yeah.
Jon Ivan-Duke:And I think, I think, buy now, pay later, you know, in its in its concept of being able to spread things and make it easier for purchases, bigger purchases, like a sofa or purchasing a bed, or, you know, instead of putting $2,000 down for that jacket that you really, really want, being able to spread that over a few months. I totally get that. I do think that buy now, pay later, may be setting itself up for a fall. I think the sector is perhaps enabling behavior in people that means that they potentially take on and extend themselves too far. And the kind of people who are constantly using Buy now pay later, they're probably not just doing that in isolation. They're probably also got credit cards. And the danger there is that you're building up a massive amount of debt. That's my worry with buy, now, pay later. I know that they would argue that they they have the right sort of checks and balances in place to enable, enable and make sure that that isn't the case. But you know, the companies themselves, they have to have huge debt facilities, massive, massive ones, you know, the hundreds of millions of dollars, billions of dollars that they carry on their books, and, you know, having to find the right partners to facilitate that debt. So again, it both for the for the custom themselves and the businesses. You know, this is a potential area which, which could, could be, be a bubble. So I'm interested to see how this goes. Because, you know, typically in the past, the likes of Visa and MasterCard haven't, haven't ventured into this area, but we've just seen very recently, evolutions in that area from the big players who've typically been involved with payments and credit cards. They are now get venturing into this area of buy now, pay later. So I can now purchase an item with my visa, but have a buy now, pay later option. So we are seeing the bigger players. It's almost like the the fintechs, the innovative startups have have laid the groundwork for the bigger players to come in and say, Wow, not knock knock the microphone out of the way. I was going to say they've come in and swept the field and said, Yeah, well, this is possible now. And I think it's just teed things up very nicely for the existing incumbent players. Speaking of existing incumbent players, the UAE has been perhaps the place where people wanted to come and visit in the Middle East the most. Now we're seeing this rise of Saudi Arabia, and it's changing all sorts of different things. The UAE and Saudi Arabia, perhaps they've typically imported brands, particularly in the UAE, they've been bringing in businesses into to be part of this landscape. But I think that's now changing. We're seeing the rise of particularly airlines like Emirates and Etta had and Saudi Arabia is now investing a lot into the aviation sector as well, obviously helping to drive tourism into the region. And from that, introducing, as well, Middle East brands into global markets as well. It's very exciting time. What's most interesting about that for you?
Vernon D Cruz:Oh, I think that's that's a great one. And you know the whole dynamic of the Middle East? Well, let me speak about the UAE right from 1971 the whole discovery of oil, the whole surge in the economy, and Dubai became a place initially, where, just as you rightly said, you would have all the global brands available, yeah. And people would come. To shop and buy and, you know, have a decent lifestyle. But I think Dubai holding in particular, if I well, even, even the Abu Dhabi group, they've, they've, they've really invested and built a number of creditable brands, right? Who doesn't to your point of Emirates Airlines, right? I mean, take a hard Emirates Qatar. Those are three players in this region who probably amongst the top five airlines in the world, right? So it's good as to them, because they really redefined what the flying experience is like and that,
Jon Ivan-Duke:and that's probably by a number of metrics. It's the quality of the experience right through to the volumes of passengers that they're ferrying. Yeah. I
Vernon D Cruz:mean, one of the fundamental insights was, people hate flying because, you know, they used to call the food jail food. But you still get on a lot of pilots. But you know, if you travel on any one of these three players, it's, it's, you know, it's a very indulgent experience. But if you're flying in, you know, one of the better cabins, be it business or first, it's glamorous. I think that is one. I think, you know, the fact that there are a lot of partnerships going on in the sports arena right now, if you go you have, you know, the hard Stadium as an example, and you know Real Madrid one, and it's fly Emma, it's all over their jersey. So, you know, they've really tied in with a number of partnerships. But I think that's one. Then you also have things like the gemera group, which is brilliant, hotels that are gone global. EMAR as an example, that's taken real estate to many countries around the world. So that is increasingly going to get more popular. And you'll probably see that. And you know, to your point again, I think a lot of people want to come to this region for two things. One is, it's an automatic good stopover from the west to the east. So people come here. And, you know, Qatar's realized that. UEs realized it. Saudi is now getting onto the bandwagon of also going into the luxury airline space. But I think the whole, the whole ecosystem, when it comes to, you know, hotels and the infrastructure and things to do around it. I mean, Dubai particularly spoils you, right, when you come to the hotel, every hotel, I mean, virtually every hotel is a glamorous, five star hotel, which you'll struggle to find, particularly in the West, right there very few of that, you know, scale that's there. So I think the whole aspect of taking service to another, different level is there, and that just uplifts the whole expectation of this region. So, you know, a lot of people say, oh, you know, Saudis catching up and catching up. I think it's brilliant for the region. I really think it is. So think about it, when we go to Europe, the close proximity of the countries make us go. You know, if you're going to to the Nordics as an example, it'll make you visit, you know, two or three destinations. And people coming here will be increasingly doing that. So why wouldn't you go to Dubai, and why wouldn't you spend time in Riyadh with all the development happening there and experience it. You know, take the take the World Cup football that happened in Qatar. I think the country that benefited the most out of all of that, with probably no investment, is the UAE, because everyone who was going for the games happened to stop over here spend a couple of days the weekends. Caught up with me. The weather was brilliant because it was in December, and it really helped uplift the whole economy. So I think this whole thing of development in neighboring countries is, is great news for the GCC overall.
Jon Ivan-Duke:Yeah, I agree. And I think when you have, you know, upstart players, and reason I'm saying this is that, you know, typically, you know, maybe somebody's heard of Dubai or Abu Dhabi, but like, where's Jeddah? Where's Riyadh? You know, if you're European or North American, maybe you just don't know where these places are. You know, Qatar and and Saudi Arabia probably weren't on the the global tourism map. People weren't thinking about, hey, where am I gonna go on holiday this winter. It was, it was, but Dubai was particularly Dubai, you know, the investment into that tourism infrastructure and everything that goes with that, it doesn't just benefit the tourists, does. It also benefits the residents and the citizens who live here. But it's geared up to be this global city, which is just as you I think you used the phrase Wonderland earlier, which is absolutely right. But I think with with this, and we've seen, particularly with Saudi Arabia's Giga projects, is creating that uplift again in tourism. It's making the Middle East become a more exciting destination as a whole. And I do think that what we're going to see is that Saudi Arabia is becoming more competitive. It's becoming a kind of place which is investing into its tourism infrastructure. They're investing a lot into sponsorships, ownership of football teams, all sorts of things. And I personally think that that competition for the UAE is a great thing. You know, you kind of see it a lot of the time in different sectors that you have one business which has kind of taken a march or they got to the top of their field, but it's often the competition that pushes them to the next level. I watch a lot of sports. When you've got somebody who's at the top of their game, the only thing that's going to make that person get even better is when there's somebody else who's coming along. I. And pushing them to get better and better and better. And I think it's, it's almost the same as and I drew a draw on an analogy here. I was watching a social media video the other day, and it was talking about how, if you've got a Coca Cola vending machine, when you go and put your you know, put your money and you've got you're basically making a choice between buying a drink or not buying a drink. But when you've got a Coca Cola vending machine next to a Pepsi vending machine, your choice changes. It's not, shall I have a drink or not? It's Shall I have a coke or a Pepsi? And now we're seeing with Saudi Arabia and UAE, it no longer becomes a choice of, shall I come to the Middle East or not, it's Where shall I go in the Middle East? And as you rightly point out as well, they might decide to come to both
Vernon D Cruz:100% and you know, I just wanted to grasp onto the point you made on competition. Competition, solid competition in every form just uplifts the game. So if people think Dubai is phenomenal now it's going to get even better with these Giga projects coming up in Saudi Arabia, right? I'll give a parallel analogy, like in tennis, right? You had three superstars at the same point in time, Nadal federal and Novak plus Andy Murray. But just imagine if one of these players were there without the competition, right? Though, suddenly those grand slams would have been, you know, and these are record grand surrounds, someone would have won, maybe 40, maybe 45 of them, right? So it just shows you the error. Like, you know, if you're competing with Jon bolt as an example, you could be the fastest sprinter of your time, but it just happens, you happen to be in the same era as m so you're not gonna win, yeah. So it's all about uplifting your game. And, you know, I think that the good bit about this, there's a lot of brotherly rivalry between, you know, different countries, and they all love one another, but, you know, they all lift the game. And I think that's really going to help the overall region as as a whole, because, you know, age of eight gets into the map. I think, you know, the the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia very rightly says he envisions this region to be the next Europe, in a way, with the development and all the buzz around it. And I could not agree more. I think that's exactly what it's going to be. Because, you know, the scale of the projects and the vision of the projects are just so futuristic for most nations in the world, it's mind blowing. And that just creates this whole curiosity factor, this whole PR, you know, machine around the world, and it's just fascinating.
Jon Ivan-Duke:When you were at Estee Lauder before, and did you sort of look at it and say, Well, I'm delighted that L'Oreal is being competitive against us. Well,
Vernon D Cruz:yeah. I mean, L'Oreal has various divisions, so they won't really ask you a competitor, but yeah, you know, I think LVMH is probably a bigger one for us, with bigger likes of Jon, everything else. But yes, I think, you know, if I compare my my stint at St Lor in the region, that was a time when there was an increasing focus on realizing that not just how big fragrances here, but also how the local fragrance tastes are very different from the Western ones. And that's when the whole surge of innovation started happening with, you know, Jon Malone, Colonel intense, and Dio coming up with the Middle Eastern Range, and Armani coming up, and everyone coming I think that was increasingly fascinating. And you know, where you got a lot of resistance from global headquarters in innovations. Now, you had a case sting, we falling behind. Because, you know, you know what DIO is doing, and Chanel is doing it. We need it too. So that is leverage, because that's just uplifted the overall game over the region. But, you know, always, always healthy competition, or a competitor is doing really well, really keeps you on your toes, and that's really a good thing. You know,
Jon Ivan-Duke:you talked a little bit about regional brands, and, you know, coming up with ideas, products, things that are really going to appeal to the people in the region. What are your kind of heroes when it comes to brands in this part of the world? And why do you admire them?
Vernon D Cruz:I think there are. There are a few, and I'll tell you why I admire them, right? So I'm very loyal to to a couple of brands in this region. I'm very loyal to Emirates, right? And you have to keep in mind how Emirates started with really, really humble upbringings, right? The least two airlines from Pakistan, international airlines. This is, this
Jon Ivan-Duke:is the story. Okay, I don't actually know the story to Emirates did
Vernon D Cruz:not have the funds to get airlines. They leased two planes from Pia, hence the code ek Emirates and Karachi, because that was their first flight. No way. Yeah. So it's fascinating. So now, if you fast forward many years, I think they were set up in in the mid 80s, right? So roughly, or whatever, 30 years later, they're, in my opinion, the best airline in the world. And you have PA, who the least air come from, that's bankrupt, right? To give you perspective of what vision and hard work can do. So I love that, and that is one of my favorite airlines. I think on a smaller scale, there's so many other brands you know, as I alluded to before you might go to I think it's just changed my. Shopping, baby, and my landscape is Gibson's for grocery. I order every single day. I get fresh groceries to my door, and I cook fresh every day. And there's so many other apps for Amazon, right, anything that you possibly need. And that's fine. That's not regional, but that's global. Is available to you, but that's a brand that's global, that's adapted to the regional thing. I think what's also fascinating here is the number of entertainment options that you have. Let me just just before
Jon Ivan-Duke:we go into entertainment, let me just stop you on that one slightly. What do you think the commonality is between them? You've mentioned, you know, Emirates, Gibson's, etc. What's the commonality between them? Then, what makes you loyal as a customer for these brands? I
Vernon D Cruz:think it's quite simple for both, if I compare and very different, right? One's grocery, 111, is aviation. I think it's the promise of good quality service and consistently good service, right? Emirates has, you know, think about it. When ice was launched as entertainment, right? It was game changing in the industry, right? The Airbus A 380 and what they did was it was a self generating PR machine around the world, right? The a treaty never worked for I would say 99% of the other airlines, Emirates, made it work, and they were always full. And there's a reason for it. It's an experience. There's so many times I'm an Emirates Airlines and, you know, in one of the better cabins, and I meet people from different parts of the world who are flying it for the first time only because they heard how luxurious is standing at the bar having a drink, all those sorts of things showering in the air as an example. And I think that's it's that promise of constant evolution, be it the game changer airlines or the 8080, or whatever in Emirates, that's phenomenal. Gibson's is good quality, consistent, good quality ingredients in fresh produce and other stuff that's delivered to your door within hours, right? And it's, I've never, ever, ever had an issue just with Gibson's on outer stock. If it's not available in the morning, it'll come to my house in the afternoon without me having to do anything. And it's just that, you know, it's, it's unheard of, right? Because it just, it just kind of automatically spoils you. And if you're in any other part of the world, after the buy, you've taken a lot of these things for granted.
Jon Ivan-Duke:It's an interesting one, because what you've kind of said there is that ultimately, these businesses, they're focusing in on on the product that they're offering and the service that they're offering. So where does marketing come into it? You know, Emirates does massive marketing campaigns. You know, if they're, if they're so good and they are at what they do and they're offering great customer service, why do they need to market?
Vernon D Cruz:It's a great question. I think they both of the things go hand in hand, right? As if you think of marketing at the very fundamental levels, is to create awareness of your brand, right? If no one knows your brand, and then you know along as you evolve your campaigns, you have your brand promise or your brand essence that you want to bring alive. I think Emirates do that, and they need to continue to do that. So we've seen Emirates Airlines gone from two planes to hundreds at the moment, and their ambition is much larger than that. It is to be the number one airline in fleet size and everything around the world. But what they've created, in terms of marketing is the whole experience, right? It's not just the aviation, it's the sporting events. You know, think of the very few sporting events that they're not associated with. You know, if you look at football, yeah, there were all the top teams. You have arsenal, you have Real Madrid. You look at cricket, they're part of the 2020, sponsors. Rugby, the bar rugby sevens are one of the best weekend activities in Dubai that you can have. So, you know, they're they really are there, because all of these are an experience and a hub. And again, you know the whole business class lounge experience, right? This is not even flying. This is before your flight was game changing in its own way. So I think that constant promise of the wow experience has been consistent for them to get more, many more people attracted to the brand.
Jon Ivan-Duke:And I think, I think what you're saying there is essentially that, that it's that marketing doesn't stop and start with a single advert. It's there's so many different elements that come into play that build that whole experience. And I think that, I think that's quite interesting that, you know, you refer to to Emirates, because obviously they've got massive budgets. But what about smaller brands? How can smaller brands, you know, take creativity and turn that into something that's really going to attract customers?
Vernon D Cruz:I'll give you a classic example, and these are from two of the brands that I've worked on, right? One happens to be Unilever and dove, and one with the body shop. Now the Keep in mind the body shop campaign I'm referring to was way before my time, and neither did I work on the dove campaign. I just happened to be in the company at that point in time. But one of the best marketing campaigns that we recall as marketeers is the dove real beauty campaign, right? So essentially, the campaign was, you take women of different ethnicities, different body types. And you say, This is real beauty, because this is the real you, and it's not the classical stereotype model that you always had, and that has been classified as one of the best campaigns in modern times. It's a brilliant insight, fun, used really well, okay, but do keep in mind, Unilever has humongous budgets to promote that. Fast forward into the early night. Well, rewind back into the early 90s, not fast forward. The Body Shop with Anita Rod had the same concept way back in the 90s, but the body shop is much smaller in scale. Yeah, does not have the budgets, right? I think both, both are spot on, and both are there, but it's all about the relevancy. So a lot of people that you talk about the body shop, particularly in the UK, because it's homegrown in the UK, will recall that era of the 90s where the body shop was very sustainable, very, you know, out there it was an activist brand, very value driven brand, very value driven brand. But again, the whole insight and the premise on a lot of the campaigns of the Body Shop back in the 90s was around real beauty, right? They were taking natural ingredients with different body types. There were campaigns in which even armpit has one shaved off because they wanted to just show real beauty, so very provocative in a way, but also just telling you that beauty is not just being artificially glamorous, but same insight, two different campaigns. One is classified as best in class because, to your point, marketing budgets do play a role with skill, yeah,
Jon Ivan-Duke:and obviously marketing budgets now, they're being changed, and with the evolution of social media and driving money into these things, what we've seen with a lot of marketers is that it's, look, let's just pump All our budget into digital marketing, you know, it's and I wonder, have marketers forgotten about genuine storytelling in favor of likes and clicks?
Vernon D Cruz:It's a really interesting question. And you know, it really, and I'll give the whole region as an example. It really depends on the sector that you're in, right? So if you're in the tourism, aviation, fast moving, consumer, good, re, luxury sector, it's all about storytelling and engagement, right? The Challenge, which I think a lot of the players in retail are having of late, has been taken to your point on the likes because how they're driving. When you're challenged as a brand, the only lever you pull is discounts and promotions. And when you say, I'm on 50% off, you're just getting a like. There's no storytelling apart from awareness that you're 50% off. But I think that's attracting footfall for short term gains, just to make your short term numbers work. Solid brands are built around the whole storytelling, so 100% right? There's no reason for a Nike or an apple or an Emirates Airlines to not do that. These are big, established brands. But the reason why they continue on the storytelling dialog is because of their whole experience, the whole engagement, that it's so true to the equity as a brand with the consumers. Apple as another example. So
Jon Ivan-Duke:and that's why I think it's so important that businesses, and if they do want to be a hugely relevant brand, they can't just pump everything into the short term wins. They've got to have a long term perspective on things as well. Another thing that I think is interesting is, is how people create content for social media. Now, I again will challenge this, and feel free to challenge me on this as well. But I would argue that social media potentially stifles creativity, and I'll give you a sort of little line on this. So if you think about the video and the content, the algorithms on social media, they encourage you to post the same kind of content. So it knows who you are as either a brand or as a creator, and then it invites others to remix that same content. It perpetuates the content again. And you know, for the poster, they find a formula that works for them, so then they then rinse and repeat. They stick to that formula. It's nothing necessarily creative about repeating the same thing over and over again. When it comes to text, they use popular phrases and things that are trending historically that's been with hashtags to label and signpost what your content is from audio, you know, from the verbal hooks that you have at the start of videos. You know all these plethora of influences saying, hey, you know, this is what you need to start your your social media video with, and people will listen to it and encouraging the the same use of of different songs, songs that are popular. So you end up hearing the same song on multiple different influences, posts or creator brands. And I just, I wonder, is social media just perpetuating the same kind of content? And actually, you know, people are thinking, Well, I just want the likes. I want the followers. I want to be able to grow my business. Or my, my personal brand, so I'm just going to stick to the tried and tested things and thereby perhaps preventing them from doing the truly creative out there innovative thing.
Vernon D Cruz:Yes, yes, yes and no, right? So I completely agree. So, you know, the whole influx of influences came, I'm going to treat influencers as a brand, right? There were times and tells when an influencer would take anything because they would capitalize on the revenue associated with them. I think that was kind of a chicken and egg, because a lot of consumers see through that. They know if you're promoting and literally, you know, a week from now, you're promoting a competitor, so they know people are doing it just, just for the likes of it, but, you know, one of the whole, and I'll give you an example of a small brand and the whole experience of it, right? And it's a locally grown brand. So salt burgers, I don't know if you've ever had, yeah, phenomenal, right? So this, you know, they've got an amazing joint at kite beach. They've just opened a fantastic new one in the new hotel that's coming up. But the whole salt experience is phenomenal. You know, they call that tribe, if I may, call it to the Salters. And you know, they have very amazing burgers, they have amazing desserts, and they've kept it simple and consistent, yeah. But again, you know, their approach has been on, on creating a storytelling experience, rather than, you know, Hello, come to Seoul diamond, 30% off. And, you know, again, get whatever, right? Even the whole, you know, in the summers, they have a great mango dessert, and they create a whole story around the mangoes. So I think it's phenomenal. And the regional expansion is testament to that. Similarly, you have a ton of, you know, take hold of beauty, right? Came up against giants in the beauty world. Because I'm from the, you know, she used to be, for perspective, an influencer back in the day when I was at loader the first time. Yeah, and she's created a multi, multi million dollar brand that's that's gone global. So a true success story, just on the essence of understanding the the makeup needs and skincare needs off the people in this region and taking that global. So I think that those are compelling stories, which, I mean, she could have easily competed on the basis of price, but I'm a locally born brand, hello, made in the UAE or wherever, and you know, you're am and 30% off, and you'd have got a million likes. But it's far more than that. It's about the experience. It's about the story and what you're offering that's unique. I
Jon Ivan-Duke:think it's very interesting that you said that, you know, it's what you're saying about being compelling for the customer and but also having that great understanding of the customers that you're trying to reach. You talked a bit, a little bit about influencers, and just bring you up on that one, a little bit, influencers have kind of had a lot of that marketing budget directed their way. I am. I'm of the opinion that people, as you say, are starting to see through the obvious influence of promotion, people having to be a little bit more creative with with how they're promoting products, because you can't just be like, Hey, I'm just putting on this this lip gloss. Now, get 10% off if you use my code. People are just like, Yeah, I'm skipping through that. It's, it's, it's not interesting. It's, you know, you've got to find a more interesting way to do that as an influencer. But I also think, in the world and the direction of travel, we are moving towards peer to peer. We're moving towards a moment where it's not necessarily going to be this, this person with a million likes, or, sorry, million followers, who's going to be the one that you trust. It's going to be your friend, and that friend being able to advise you. And as has always been the case, word of mouth referral has always been such a powerful tool. I tried this restaurant last week. You must try it out. Well, you're far more likely to go and try that restaurant from somebody you know and like your sister or your best friend. They say something, it's far more powerful. It's it's 100 times more powerful than some person you've never met on the internet. Yeah, and I think that is the direction of travel. And you know, in terms of that evolution, we are moving into an increasingly digital world, but also a more personalized and tailored world in some regards as well. How do you see marketing evolving in the next sort of five to 10 years
Vernon D Cruz:I have so there's a ton happening in the market landscape, right? We called it the digital revolution a few years ago, and I think now there's obviously the whole experiential artificial intelligence space. And I, by the way, 100% agree with you, because word of mouth, particularly from your circle. There are two reasons for that, right? One is credibility, because you trust the person. The second is, we all have similar tastes, and that's why we tend to stick around and with people who have similar tastes in us, so your choice of recommendation for a restaurant will very well resonate with me and probably go to it. But I think with this whole immersion and this whole width of artificial intelligence there, what essentially you're going to find is more. More experiential, tailor made options or solutions, depending on what you want to term it to yourself. So you know, because it could be you like going to a French restaurant with a view for a romantic dinner, and give you the last time I went to pure shake. All right, looking at similar profiles as peer shake. What are the other ones around, right? Could it be a Korean? Could it be this? Could it be lpm? And each one will give a different vibe with a similar look and feel? And I think the other aspects would be, you know, we have reviews now, and I think you can probably take reviews to a more, more, I would say, sophisticated level, right? So it's overall reviews and ratings could be whatever 4.7 and five. But you know, you could be looking for ambience views. You could be looking for, you know, a particular, not just food, but a particular menu on the item that you want to take that through. But I do think we, you know, the it with the whole influx of, you know, artificial intelligence and virtual reality out there, it is just going to uplift the whole game to another degree whatsoever. You know, already, we see restaurants that have experiences, right? It's not just food experience and the culture and the vibe, right? You have dark restaurants. You have virtual restaurants where things are thrown into your plate from the roof and different things like that. And I think the whole experience factor is really, really going to propel over the next couple of years.
Jon Ivan-Duke:Yeah, I agree. And I think there's also going to be different ways that people experience things. Obviously, we've got, and I'm not going to say a revolution, because they've been around for some time, but the kind of augmented reality or virtual reality headsets. We are seeing more in that regard, and whether they've been successful so far, probably not. I know, with the Apple vision pro this was, you know, sort of mooted a couple of years ago, and it's gradually sort of picked up a little bit of pace. And I've heard great things from some people and awful things from others. Some saying that the it's far too heavy on your head. You can't use it for extended periods of time. Others saying, Well, you know, why on earth would you buy a television now, and everything in between? And one of the things about that is, I've heard that when it comes to the development of the what's, what's you're able to do with, say, for example, the Apple vision pro the developers just haven't caught up yet. It uses its own sort of system, and you know, the kind of traditional developers who've been in these spaces just haven't caught up yet. And that will obviously happen over time. So we're going to see more exciting things happen with with headwear, and that opens up a lot of possibilities as well. You know, from a marketing perspective, well, am I going to see different kinds of adverts appear on on my headset? Do I have to subscribe to stop them from popping up? How is notifications going to look? Am I going to be watching a program and there's going to be sort of adverts flashing across the bottom of my vision Pro to tell me to go and buy Doritos. You know, you can imagine that there's so much there in terms of evolution, but no matter what the channel, the content is still going to be the king, correct? That's still going to be the case creative ideas and content, that's not going to change. So if I gave you $10,000 right now, and you had a B to C brand, and I said, Look, go and spend that $10,000 on something. How do you spend it? Oh,
Vernon D Cruz:I would definitely go on the experience grain and amplify it through social and digital. So what I mean is you create a you create a harbor, you create an experience, and you get people to come to your brand, and you amplify that to social media, so that you can almost like a phygital kind of experience, correct? And it could be anything physically playing with the products, or people coming in to experience the overall look and feel like, you know, I was at the, you know, Atlantis Royale, the other end, owners has a phenomenal one. Dolce and Gabbana has done a phenomenal one. Louis Vuitton has done branding around the hotel. These are all out of the box mediums of taking that experience around the brand. So if you have these huge LV characters around the hotel, anyone visiting the Atlantis royal is taking a picture of that. Tagging Atlantis royal, tagging Louis Vuitton, putting on social material. And that's creating a whole ripple effect, right? So for me, it would definitely be out creating talked about viral experiences, physical
Jon Ivan-Duke:and physical visibility correct.
Vernon D Cruz:And I think physical is key that can propel online. So that's 100% way I would put my money in.
Jon Ivan-Duke:And would you do anything different if it was a B to B brand?
Vernon D Cruz:Maybe a little different? So I'll give you the example of maybe 2b to B brands are doing, and these are both B to C and B to B brands. So let's, let's take Pepsi and let's take Visa, right? Both, both, both do that really well. So Pepsi are obviously sponsors of the Champions League, and every year, and they, what they do is, essentially they take their clients or the. Business vendors to watch the Champions League in what they call the pep zone. So you get to help, you know, experience the whole pep experience. You get front row seats. You experience the final, the half type, the show, Lenny Kravitz performing all of that thing. Yeah. So I think that is a whole experience that keeps the B to B clients really happy, because eventually that drives interesting,
Jon Ivan-Duke:see, so it's actually you're touching again on loyalty there as well, correct.
Vernon D Cruz:And visa is doing a very similar thing. Visa sponsors the Summer and Winter Olympics. They're happening in Paris. So I know they are obviously taking all of their corporate clients as hosts in the visa lounge for the Olympics, which is, which is absolutely fabulous. So I think they do that really well, because these are experiences which very few people can can have right the open ceremony, or watching 100 meter race all the Champions League and stuff. And I think that these are very memorable ones, because whoever goes there, even as as a guest or a client, again, is propelling it. But to a different degree of envy, probably on social media,
Jon Ivan-Duke:you're probably going to be loyal to them for many, many years ahead. So just to round things off, because I know we are kind of running out of time a little bit in terms of skills as a marketer, whether somebody's starting out on their career or their many years down the line, what skills would you say are kind of essential right now for the coming years ahead?
Vernon D Cruz:I think a couple. So I think eagerness to learn, because that is going to be with you throughout what I studied in marketing, I don't apply 95% of it now, there's no social, digital there's no artificial intelligence, and trust me, kids are studying now. You know, AI would be a thing of the past and so much more in the future. So always, always, always, keep yourself up to date, or you'll be a dinosaur, particularly in marketing, which is ever so evolving. So you need to read up, you need to be relevant, you need to attend courses, you need to do talk shows. You need to be where the right audience is. Constantly learn. I think that would be the first humility. I think is key. Don't ever think you're the best. You may have 100 awards in marketing tomorrow, someone will take you to the club. To the cleaners. You have to be humble. You have to constantly strive to uplift your game, because that's the only thing that gets you in the game and to keep a look around you. You know, for me, what's worked for me, at least in my marketing career, is I've kept an open lens. People from different industries, diversities, completely different dynamics, trust me, they bring the best ideas to your game. They really, really do, versus someone who's classical foods or classical beauty or classical whatever industry you want to call it, because only when you get people with different mindsets and different cultures and different insights and different industries, truly you get the best out of the people, because you're seeing things from so many different lenses, and they spark incredible ideas. That's
Jon Ivan-Duke:a wonderful way to kind of round things off. Thank you very much for joining us. Vernon, where can people find out more about you?
Vernon D Cruz:You can find me on LinkedIn. Vernon, D Cruz, I'm also on Instagram, so you can find me there. DCRVernon
Jon Ivan-Duke:thank you so much for joining us, and thank you very much for listening to today's episode. I'd love it if listeners and audience. Can give this show a star ranking on Spotify. Make sure you subscribe, like, all that shizzle. You know what to do. Let's hopefully get more people along to joining the Aeolian Sands podcast. Thank you very much and join us next time.
Vernon D Cruz:Thank you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure. Thanks.