All right, folks, welcome back to another episode of the Sears Langer Podcast, where as always our main course for you will be talking and hopefully teaching more about bass fishing. That of course does not come without a distraction or 10 here or there. Whether you're here to learn or just talk or uh here's some bass invanter, excuse me. It has been a long couple days. Uh you guys are in the right spot. As always, I'm your host, Bailey Eichbrett, and joined with me is the Bastin captain, Mr. Andy Full. And we are unfortunately out without the Idaho's finist, Mr. Adam Deakin. We are actually recording this episode prior to iCast. So this is now a week and a half later. So uh there is no bits from the bass boat segment for this show because you guys were literally recording this the same day as we recorded with Jesse Wiggins. Uh so anything you heard, we would have been the same. But uh we will next week's show, we will have a whole wrap-up on iCast and anything else different than what Deacon and I already talked about on last week's show with Jesse Wiggins. We'll have any updates to it or anything that's new that's launched, um, any any industry news, uh things like that that's come out. Of course, there's rumors circling as always, but uh you guys know we don't ever really report or talk about it until it's you know 100% confirmed. But um getting this one out because in the craze of iCast and me traveling all over the place, Andy Guiden, Deacon traveling all over the place. We wanted to make sure you guys had an episode for this week, and we have a freaking banger episode coming. And uh Andy, what do they have to look forward to?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, long overdue of getting Mr. Ben Milliken back on the Sirius Angler podcast, right? Like so dive into kind of like the lessons he's learned over time from social media and the elite series. Um, dove into a little bit of bait talk and big swim baits and like and what he's up to in this long break that the elite series is on, and maybe trying to chase like uh world record because they don't announce state records, so that's kind of cool.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, and we'll get into all that in this show. But yeah, it sounds like he's up to some pretty damn cool stuff, man, and uh a place that we've heard uh doing some of the seriously western stuff. We've had some guys from Washington, Oregon, uh, Idaho, obviously with Deacon live in there. Um some talk about that. We get into a little bit of that with Ben. But uh definitely good to get him back on here. And uh before we get into that and get into that show here with Ben, uh real fast for you guys, uh obviously it's the dog days of summer, is what we are in right now. We are in the peak of it, the longest days of the year. And uh making sure that you guys have the right batteries to make sure your boat, kayak, whatever that is, it's RV, if you're traveling, uh stays powered up all day long. Make sure you guys look at uh amped outdoors lithium batteries or even some of the power stations, which as we speak, I will literally be living off of because I'll be as this episode drops, I'll be up in Lake Champlain. I'll be camping uh for a good week. Uh the Champlain event actually uh from today will I'll likely be my first day on the water practice-wise until Sunday. And then I'm actually going to take my time a couple days going through the Adirondacks, sleeping in my truck, living off that amped outdoors power station, and uh fishing some little potholes in the kayak. So I'm looking forward to that. But uh uh make sure you guys give them a call if you guys need anything. Uh if you're powering up your boat, kayak, whatever that may be. If you have any questions on it, reach out to them or reach out to us. We'd be happy to help by any means necessary. And uh always check over at OmniAffishing for any uh deals, especially coming out of iCast for the things you guys are looking to get your hands on that you saw released at iCast. Well, a good chance it's already on OmniFishing or going to be on OmniFishing. You can save some money with our discount code, things like that down below, as always.
SPEAKER_00But uh any anything else for the folks? No, I think uh they're gonna enjoy the heck out of this episode. It's a good one.
SPEAKER_02Well, I guess real quick uh two, a little precursor. So I mentioned it on last week's episode. We had some scheduling uh mishaps, and uh uh obviously that is the hardest thing about uh podcasting. It is not the editing, it is not the podcast itself, it's not the uploading, it's literally the scheduling because it's not like we're out here paying money to some of these guys, things like that. It's um, you know, these guys are coming out and spending their time. We appreciate the hell out of them for taking time out to come and join us and educate us and you guys. Uh so things happen with schedules, and unfortunately we weren't able to put out the John B episode last week, uh, but next week will be the episode with John B. So another big uh YouTube content uh pioneer, if you will. So you have that to look forward to. And uh I guess without further ado, Mr. Ben Milliken. All right, folks, welcome back to another edition of Sirius Angler and back joining the show for I think third or fourth time now, but it's been a minute, Mr. Ben Milliken. Hey, what's going on?
SPEAKER_01Dude, it's been a minute, you're not kidding. I I honestly don't remember the last time I was on here. I'd you know, I hop in and listen to you guys on the road every once in a while. Not not every once in a while, I mean like probably a couple times a week, to be honest. Um, but it's been a while since I I've hopped on here, so I'm happy to be back.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, and speaking of that, you've been nothing but on the road, it seems like, since the last elite derb.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, definitely. Um I'm you know, I'm blessed that I have a wife that's like cool with me, just you know, going wherever we we really want to. We have this RV now, which is awesome when you're in it, and it's totally a pain in the ass every other time that you own it. Uh so we we pretty much were like, you know what? Houston, Texas in June, July, August is not very fun. Um, and so we got some places we want to go see and kind of not really cross off a bucket list, but just kind of go check out, and they're all north, and so let's head north. And we might as well, if we're if we're gonna be on the road and in between stuff for tournaments, we might as well just do it in between as well. And so, yeah, we're on uh like a I don't even know, 6,000 mile road trip over the course of the next month and a half or so period. So um that that gets interesting with uh a five and a two-year-old, but we're all still in one piece so far.
SPEAKER_02So far, so far, so good. It looks like fun, dude. It looks like you're crossing off some different species, different methods of looks like you're throwing glides and creeks and everything. It looks like a whole having a lot of fun.
SPEAKER_01For sure. I haven't uh gotten around to really doing a lot of editing of the content that I have so far because I'm having a hard time, you know, stopping for a day to actually get any of that part done. That's not the fun part. Um, but yeah, crazy stuff, man. Um broke my PB's smallmouth the other day, you know, spent a week throwing like really big, fast moving baits, you know, non-traditional stuff for smallmouth, um, like Magnum spoon, big swim bait, uh, big minnow, um, big giant topwaters. Not traditional stuff that you would think of. Um very, very, very interesting bite. It was very similar to a herring type bite. Uh, and then I I just made it out. Um, I'm not gonna say where I'm at now, but um, we had a 36-pound bag of spotted bass um up here the uh the other day. So it's been it's been really fun, really crazy, and um I'm excited to actually put into video.
SPEAKER_00Now, I have a question. What was the like primary forage based to make you upsize in baits to chase those fish around?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so the smallmouth was all kokany salmon based. So I mean the coconut salmon there are uh you think salmon, I was thinking like big, big, but they're like two to four pounds, right?
SPEAKER_00At most, not not even like that.
SPEAKER_01They're almost all of them are like five to eight inches. So I mean they're little meat candy bars for for these smallmouth, and um they they pretty much hang out a little bit deeper, like 50, 60 plus feet of water, and then they make the mistake of getting close to those points where them smallmouth are kind of um not kind of, but they're they're grouped up, and some of the schools are like hundred to two hundred fish. So sometimes they slip up and go in there and it's a freaking massacre.
SPEAKER_00I can only imagine what it looks like on forward-facing when that little kokany group of fish swims by and all of a sudden you just see all the fish. For sure.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it it's it's eerily similar to uh blueback herring. Um, and I'm kind of working on some uh uh maybe a longer form documentary style um piece of content about this and this trip that I've noticed in a lot of these fisheries. Um, whenever there's pelagic bait fish, they they kind of, you know, the the fish kind of the it doesn't matter if it's largemouth, smallmouth, or spotted bass, they kind of set up the same way. And it's it's eerily similar to the bites we've had at Hartwell, Smith Lake, um though those types of herring fisheries where you know you can pull up and you pull up to a point and the fish are kind of like dotted up suspended, like in a straight line almost, way up high in the column on like a point or something, and you pretty much you have one chance to get them to bite that first cast, and it's gonna pull the entire group, and you better have the right presentation, um, or else you're not gonna get bit at all. Um, so it was it was really cool like that. There was very few places where you could catch you know more than one fish on a spot, which is crazy when you have like um you know a group of four to six pound smallmouths, and there's a hundred of them. Um, but it was it was it was really, really cool. Uh I never caught a small on a magnum spoon, and I caught you know a ton of them on an eight-inch spoon. That's sick.
SPEAKER_00That bite had to be insane.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's it's great. It's like the big largemouth where you know you just go to snap it up and it just you know it's like you're snagged, it's stopped. That's sick.
SPEAKER_02It sounds very similar to like Lanier, where you go pull up on a brush pile, there's 40 of them, but you're only gonna catch one, maybe two.
SPEAKER_01Yep, exactly.
SPEAKER_02That's crazy. That's cool.
SPEAKER_01And I mean it's it was kind of like you could throw a jig head minnow and and you'd catch one every once in a while, but so much more effective to throw like that nose hook style fluke presentation or a uh just a straight Texas rig fluke presentation. I mean, we were catching them on the Magnum Flush from Sixth Sense. It's a seven and a half inch fluke, it's it's quite a bit bigger than the zoom magnum fluke with like a six aught you know EWG hook in it, and it just it's nothing for them to come up and headshot that thing and get it. So pretty cool, man.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I saw you doing a little bit in your uh I think it was the clip you posted of your PB. You were nose hooking that. And uh I want to say you were throwing that new six cents bait, you guys are. Yes, sir.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that it's already actually out. Um the saltwater version's out, which is a little bit tougher material, um, which was actually you know perfect for for that type presentation. The the softer material is gonna be a little bit better flow on a jig head. Um, but then we're we're coming out with a freshwater, um, a little bit more detailed version here before too much longer. So we're excited for it. I mean, all poured in-house, United States. So we're we're trying to get all our manufacturing to the United States right there in Willis, Texas. So um, that's been pretty cool.
SPEAKER_02That's badass, dude. Yeah, there's a few things launching right now, two for six cents, right? Beyond just that.
SPEAKER_01I mean, honestly, we we always have a ton of things launching. Um, I can't even keep up with it. I don't even know the name of our products and colors half the time anymore, which is uh, you know, kind of it's it's an interesting situation at at times. Um, but we've launched like three baits every week um this year. Uh and so it's it's pretty crazy. Um, you know, it's it's kind of interesting to see like all the iCast drops and all that when we're we're constantly we we don't really we haven't done iCast in a long time at Sixth Sense. We just kind of you know release stuff all year long. But um yeah, we just dropped a whole series called the Masterclass that people don't know that are on the website quite yet uh today. And then we got this big creature bait called the bodega that's been like we can't keep it in stock. Um the big six-inch version. We got two smaller sizes coming too. Um, but yeah, just a lot of cool baits.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. I've seen a bunch of the bodega content. We have uh some of the boys over at uh you call it just launched that that rod brand, like Tristan and Caden, some of the team would have been smashing on that thing. I know Annie and I have been looking to get our hands on that, but uh, we were we were just talking about that the other day, actually, talking about launching outside of iCast just seems to be the smarter move nowadays when you have 3,000 brands launching the same week. Yeah, for sure. Common sense now.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and it's you've kind of seen the industry go that way. That's kind of been you know the the big hot stories is oh, pure phishing's not going, you know, uh to iCast. And it's like, well, you know, that's that's not saying we're better than anybody else or ahead of anything else, but that's something we've been doing for a long time. Um the putting the the marketing dollars into you know the promotion all year long, or at least you know, into our own um promotion avenues has just been a way better investment over the last six, seven, eight years than um full-on sending an entire crew die cast and waiting for their media to release it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it ain't it ain't cheap to send people there or even just get a boo space there a little bit.
SPEAKER_01It's not for sure.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02You're gonna say something, Andy? Sorry.
SPEAKER_00No, that's what uh that's exactly what I was gonna say. It's not really cost prohibitive, right? Unless you're like GSM probably, where just like, oh, it's a splash in the bucket.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, for sure. Yeah, pull funding from one of the 3,000 brands you get. Yeah, but uh, dude, back on the content stuff, um I'm kind of curious, like so with your deal over the years, like for gosh, I don't even know how long you've been doing it this rate, it's gotta be 10 plus now, right? Yeah, I think so. Yeah, from the tournament stuff to doing the creek stuff to the spillway, like you're very diversified in that. But I guess like looking back, do you have something that's kind of like your favorite that you might get excited more than others to go and create?
SPEAKER_01Man, that's tough. Um, it I'm constantly wanting to change up, which kind of you know, these days that hurts you in the algorithm. Um, back when I I started, it was uh it was a benefit to do as many different things as possible because then you could just get as many different you know types of anglers that were interested in as many different types of content as possible to uh to watch your stuff. And nowadays it kills you when you're um you know kind of pigeonholing yourself um into one area is good, but then trying a bunch of different types of content doesn't resonate always with your audience. Um, but basically, you know, long answer to to a short question was uh, you know, I I don't really have a favorite. I love the tournament stuff, uh I love the competitive side of things, but just as well, I I love doing what I've been doing here um the last couple weeks, which is you know, some of the ultra clean water waiting trout, smallmouth, and river type stuff, too. So I don't really have a favorite, man. I just uh I just love to catch them.
SPEAKER_02Hell yeah. The fish the fish head stuff, which seems to be a declining group of anglers nowadays.
SPEAKER_00It's either you a bass guy or you're a trout guy, and there's no really no crossover, but uh, but like when you're in go mode, it's hard to get out of a one-track mind, you know, like that's the hardest thing for sure. So, Ben, what would you say is your biggest lesson you've learned throughout your endeavors of the YouTube channel and etc.
SPEAKER_01Oh man, uh as far as YouTube goes, um I guess that would be my biggest thing is um I always try to just make what I want to make and not make what I think it'll do well for views or for what I think the industry wants or what I think the you know the viewer wants because um as it's it's gotten more watered down and it's gotten spread thinner and thinner over the years, it you can really see people um that are doing it for the wrong reasons, which I mean it's not the wrong reason to try to make a living out or try to make money doing it by getting views, but if you're doing that, it's it turns into work really, really quick, and that person's gonna fizzle out really quick. So I think always just you know, I I of course, you know, sometimes I'll I'll I'll make a video where I know it's gonna get some more views or a little bit more engagement, um, but I'm never gonna do anything that I don't want to be doing, which is kind of you know what I'm doing right now, which uh is you know 4,000 miles from my house in Texas um with you know two trucks and an RV and a boat. But um I and I know everyone doesn't have the the ability to just you know go do that, but I've always kind of you know, if I want to go trout fishing on Monday and then go fish a spillway on Tuesday and then make a tip video in my garage on Wednesday and then Saturday go fish a tournament, like that's what I'm gonna do. And and uh it's always kind of been that way, and that's that's that's really the the most important thing is it's it's kept it fresh and it's kept it something that I enjoy because it it's a ton of work and a ton of time, and a lot of that time is away from your family. So if you're not doing something that you really enjoy, um it's it's not gonna last.
SPEAKER_02Well, that's likely why you've been around for so long is is because of that. Where if, like you said, if you weren't enjoying it, you probably would have dwindled out and been gone by now.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you've you've seen you know some of the guys that got really popular from the start that I definitely could see, you know, they wanted me to work with them and stuff, and you could I could definitely see that they're in this to make money, they don't care about fishing, they don't care about the industry, they don't they don't care about the things that they're saying they care about with you know getting youth involved in an angler. It might have been in fishing, it might have been a byproduct of their videos coming out, but I could see straight up, you know, some of these guys were in it straight up for the money, nothing else, and they were just trying to pinch every penny they could out of it, and they got out of it as quick as they possibly could and and no longer make fishing videos. So uh I'm not gonna name any names, but um, you guys know who that is.
SPEAKER_02Oh, we we get you loud and clear. That's for danger. I'm sure the the listeners do too.
SPEAKER_01You don't even hear that word anymore, and it was all anyone talked about for like two years.
SPEAKER_02Right. Yeah, I mean it's crazy. Dude, I feel like in general, the grow the sport, you don't even hear that anymore. No, no, I feel like because the sports growing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, everyone's like, okay, big enough. And it's like, what we grew the sport and what did it do? It did everyone's like, ah, I don't know. Yeah, the lakes are hard are more pressured and it's harder to catch fish now. Yeah, no one got rich.
SPEAKER_00Legit, dude. I mean more sporty now, right?
SPEAKER_01Exactly.
SPEAKER_02We talk about all the time, dude, where it's like, this ain't like football or basketball, you can go build another field, another core. Like we there is a capacity in fishing, you know. We only have so many arenas we can go and do, and uh especially when we you know you dwindle it down and niche it to just bass, but that's where like you know, the spillway stuff, the creek stuff, things like that, there's more opportunities there. And uh love that that's stuff that you've attacked for so long. And I guess, man, on the on the flip side of it, you know, asking you know some of the learning lessons you made off YouTube, being you know, your time on the elites, man. What's been the the learning big learning lesson you've had since being on that level of competition?
SPEAKER_01Uh yeah, it's they're really good. I know that. Everyone is extremely good. Uh, and it's it's even in the year two, it it just seems like everyone's so much sharper than the first year. Um I mean, really, the the biggest thing I learned was you know some of my flaws, which are experience um on big bodies of water, on tournament, big tournament bodies of water that a lot of these guys came in and have either been on the elite series for a long time and they've been fishing them, or they've been in college and high school angling. Like I'd never been to Hartwell, and I mean everyone I think had fit on the Elite Series had fished there 300 times. Um, and and the same thing goes for a lot of lakes we haven't been to. Like, you know, we went to Okeechobee, I had never been there. Um well, it's you know, Thousand Islands, never been to St. Lawrence River before. You know, I've never been to St. Clair, I've been to Mississippi River for one day. Like there's a lot of fisheries where you can't just show up with three days of practice and compete with these guys. It's impossible. You have to land on the perfect thing and get you know a little bit lucky, a lot lucky to land on the right thing um to have a chance. Everyone talks about like you know, you gotta fish in the moment, and it doesn't matter what's what happened last year, it doesn't matter what happened before, you gotta be on them at that time. And there's some truth to that, but having experience and being comfortable with the fishery and and how to get around, how it sets up, the types of baits, the nuances of it, that's that's a huge learning curve. Um, and so it's it's really, really tough for someone like me from Nebraska that didn't have a lot of college fishing experience um to really stay competitive consistently.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well, and and with that, I kind of would love to take this angle, come full circle. And uh one thing we love doing on here is called our uh amped outdoors electric take. And so obviously amp being our lithium solution here at Sirius Tangler, we uh we do this uh electric take, which is our bold question where we uh hope we'll put emphasis on the hope because you definitely don't need to answer as bold as as you'd like, but um a bold question for a bold answer, and that is you you've done the elite level stuff and you've certainly made a hell of a name for yourself on the the YouTube and content side. For somebody that's growing up that loves the fishing side and wants to make a career out of it, do you think there's a better future opportunity on the tournament competitive side right now, or on the content slash YouTube, that whole circle?
SPEAKER_01So if you if it stays the same landscape as it is right now on the tournament side of things, which it won't because there's always cycles, there's always buyouts, there's always new leagues starting up. Um even if That happens if something like transcendent doesn't come out, which it probably won't, um, definitely the content side, a thousand percent the content side. Um, no offense to you guys, but you don't you don't have to go out in the water. I mean, you guys both fish your ass off. I know that, but you really don't have to go fish and and do anything on the water, and that's fine. I mean, the you know, brought broadcast at any type of of you know venue, whether it be sports or or entertainment or whatever, they they aren't out there, you know, playing basketball or in the NFL and they're talking about it. Um, there's and there's um there's just so many more jobs and avenues to to work and and have opportunities to make multiple income streams in the the social media side than there is on the tournament side. There's a finite group of guys that are fishing uh tournaments that are able to make you know even an okay living. I mean, it's like there might be a hundred guys out there total in all the leagues fishing tournaments that are are making like you know at least 50 grand a year profit. And that's not very much. Um, I mean, maybe that might be low. I I don't know everyone's, you know, I don't I don't go around ask people how much they make, but we'll just say like, you know, 75 grand or more. I bet there's less than a hundred guys that you know fish competitively that make sponsor money and and winning the money to make 75 grand a year. Uh and that's that's not very many people, but you know, there there's room for thousands of people to have really good livings um on the social media side of things. And that doesn't mean just going out and making you know YouTube videos, that's that could be anything.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah, especially now when we have so many different things like platforms that are diversifying, monetizing things like that, and different ways to do that. Just when we think it's there's the same, you know, playbook and how to do that, then the the platforms change and you gotta change with that and then a certain way to do things. There's just like how you were talking about like back in the day where you could do all diversified content and that was great, and now it seems like the the more niche you are, the better. Of course, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. And the same thing goes with that, like it you're gonna get exposed really quick if you don't love it, because it if you aren't passionate about it, it it's gonna show up really, really fast because it's not easy to make it on the social media side. They're both extremely difficult to make it and make a living at, but there's a lot more opportunities um at all different levels on the social media side. I mean, that's that's probably the biggest thing. Like, you literally can't make a living unless you're on the elite series or the Bass Pro Tour. I don't know about MPFL, probably not them either, because everyone that dominates is already on the Elite Series. But unless you're unless you're one of the top 40 guys on the Bass Pro Tour or the Elite Series, like you can't make money if you're in the Toyota's Invitationals, the the Opens. It's impossible. So, I mean, you can make, you know, $20,000 a year on a podcast and $7,000 a year on a little YouTube channel and get some sponsorships to, you know, go go do some live streaming somewhere for a company. You can take pictures for another company, like you can put a lot more different, a lot more different revenue streams together from the social media side of things to make a good good income. It's gonna take some work, but there's a lot more opportunity.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, a lot more diversified, and you can be a lot more opportunistic, if you will. Definitely. Yeah, love that.
SPEAKER_01And the way tournament fishing is going too. Um you you obviously, you know, that being said, you you're gonna need to have something outside of just fishing tournaments and winnings and sponsor money to be able to be competitive. But at the same time, if you're not fishing a lot and extremely talented and just have an it factor, you're not even gonna stay on the elite series. So uh it it's uh it's a double-edged sword.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that was one of the biggest things that uh when we had Ike on with him hitting on that was how many pro anglers aren't thinking about the business end of things for you know, especially with how competitive it's getting now, and like it it your career might not be around for forever. You gotta have side avenues that are building up money besides just Winnips or potential sponsor dollars, you know, having different things in the in the docket. And you made a great great point of that and a great example of it.
SPEAKER_01But uh yeah, I mean you it's like they say youth and technology is undefeated. And even if you are in Easton Fathergill or Tucker Smith or Trey McKinney right now, like you can make a living just on fishing and just on winning. That's not even for those guys, you know, might be five years, might be ten years, might be twenty years, but they're gonna need to have something else as well. Not to say that any of those guys don't, but I'm just saying, like, if you're that talented, you're still you're gonna get passed up and pushed out eventually.
SPEAKER_02So yeah, like you're saying earlier, it's all in cycles, right? I mean, it's there's gonna be another generation or something that comes out that they're not gonna be as privy to, you know. Yeah, that's a good thing.
SPEAKER_01That's that's a one special thing about Rick Clun. I mean, we're never gonna see another one, no one's ever gonna do that again. It's crazy.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I don't know how he did it, to be honest.
SPEAKER_01Still doing it, it's wild.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's a fair point. Like, oh man.
SPEAKER_02Well, uh going back to your point about catching some of these, uh, some smallmouth with some bigger baits, some glides and things like that. I know Andy, we wanted to talk a little bit of glide bait fishing, of course. And uh Andy, I know you had a question on the on the glide bait stuff.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah, I was gonna get there in a moment, but uh, you know, with glide baits, and you probably know better than anyone, there's low-cost ones and super blown out the dollar that not just anyone can afford, right? So, like, what is the best one that you have used on a budget side when and also one that if money wasn't a factor? So one in one.
SPEAKER_01Well, that's tough because I mean you you can't look at it like a a glide bait is a glide bait is a glide bait. It's like saying which crankbait is is good and which crankbait is cheap and which one's expensive. Well, what what are we talking about? Are we talking about crankbaits this big or this big or deep divers or you know, everything's a different uh tool? It's like asking what's what's a good jig. Um, so that's tough, but what it also depends what a uh budget style swim bait is for you because um my I'm really really proud. I caught um four or five fish on it today, you know, that not giant ones, but four or five pounders on my uh my nine-inch um six-inch draw, and and that's a $75 bait. It's not a super cheap bait. That's a very that's more money than most people would ever spit on a lure, but it's a you know it's an ABS bait, it's a very, very competitive bait, um, price-wise. Um, and then the smaller version is $50, a six-inch version, and those are two really good options. Um I I mean I've fish both of them, they're both on my deck every single day, and I catch a ton of fish on them. And we have some awesome, like we talk about some baits coming out. We have one even smaller than that, that's like a crazy good little chop glide that's like a four-inch one that's gonna be cheap as well. Um, we just released a saltwater version of it. Um, but yeah, so those would be more my budget ones, but you know, and I can't really say if money was not an option because I have way too many swim baits, you know. Uh Hank, obviously the Hinkle Shad's a huge one for me. Um, if if people haven't been watching that one, watching my my stuff for a while. I have like seven or eight of them right now. I've had way more, way less at certain times, but you know, that's that's a tough bait to get. It's four to seven hundred dollars, depending on where you, you know, depending on your avenue where you purchase it, how long you want to wait for it. Yeah, how long how long you want to wait for Andrew to pour them up for you. Um you know, you never know when they're gonna come. But uh, and then kind of in the middle, you know, I I like a lot of the the clutch and the KGBs are really good resin style baits in that 150, 100 uh 200 range, I'll say, depending on which sizes and baits. I I catch a ton of fish on those too. So there's a lot of good options. That's the good thing about it, is there's a lot more good options. Most of the plastic ones are not good. Um, I will say that. Um, they're they're just flat out not going to have the action it's gonna take to get a fish to commit in 2025, where they've seen them and they're not stupid. Um so there's not a lot of them that are actually gonna catch fish that are that are those cheaper ones.
SPEAKER_02It it's kind of crazy how that category has blown up and expanded from you know multiple multi-jointed ones to your standard, like the six-cent draw, just a a I don't even know how you would categorize that as like a standard or just a two-part bot. I don't even know how you'd categorize that these days or label them these days, but uh from ones that are like you were saying earlier, ones that are you know, drawdown, like the cranking what deeper cranking ones, like it's it's a whole that that whole site's exploded outside of the garage builders these days. Yeah, it has.
SPEAKER_01It's a it's a wonderful thing. And the cool thing is, like I said, like I've almost thrown big baits exclusively on this trip to a fault for sure. Like I've definitely missed out on bites because I'm not throwing you know less fun stuff. I can Nico rig and and you know, dice and and drop shot and do all sorts of stuff and catch more. But is it I just uh when I have the opportunity and I'm fishing a clean water fishery, especially, I'm gonna be throwing a big bait. And the cool thing about it is, you know, fish eat fish, they're always gonna eat them, and they still eat them great, even though it seems like a lot of guys have them in their arsenal now and have spent the time and and found the good baits, they still work, they're still catching them, they're not catching them as good as they used to. Like when I moved down to Texas four years ago, and I mean I think I was one of the only ones throwing them, and they were just like not they definitely wouldn't all bite, but it was a lot higher percentage than it is now, um, where I could pretty much just go out and be like, I don't know, I'll just go throw a couple, you know, big baits, and I'll catch seven or eight, you know, over five pounds on it, and then I catch a teener on it. Um now it's tougher. There's gonna be days where you catch one, you know, but um that they catch fish are all around the country. I'm up here in the Pacific Northwest, crushing them on it the last several days, and they catch them in in Florida and Texas and every highland, Ozark Lake in the Northeast, smallmouth eat them, spotted bass eat them, California, of course, I mean desert lakes, river systems, everywhere they work. They might not be the best thing all the time, but if you learn how to use them as the right type of tool, um they're especially fun fishing, they're gonna be great for you.
SPEAKER_02Do you have one like it might not even be the biggest fish that you've caught on them, but like an a specific eat that stands out to you in your mind when you think about the all the times that you've thrown a big swim bait, like just simply of a like a story of an eat that when you think about it stands out in your mind?
SPEAKER_01I got two that come to mind. Um one of them, two of them are special for different reasons, and they were both giant fish. They're probably my two biggest fish I've caught. No, they're they're not my two biggest, but two of my biggest. One of them was with um the Zark, my buddy. We were fishing just a lake in Texas, and I was throwing um up there was a uh public fishing dock, and there was some brush piles underneath it that had crappie on it, and I threw up under I got somehow got my ankle shat up underneath the dock and pulled it out, and uh uh one came up and crushed it, and we we got in it was like 13-4 or something like that. I think it was 13-4, 13-2. I don't know. But that was awesome just to catch like uh you know a 13 plus on a glide with him. That was uh special, special fish, and then another one um was my personal best I caught on it uh out at OH Ivy. It was uh, you know, I hadn't been there for a couple years, and it was October, and uh it was like there was a tournament there that took 10 pounds the day before to win, like it was terrible out there, and um, I was like, you know what, I'm I'm specifically making a trip because no one's fishing out there anymore because it's gotten so hard to catch them. And I caught a 55-pound limit and I caught a 14-7 on it, and man, it was it just like it goes to show you like if you get around the right fish with a bait that's just like super refined that they haven't seen, you can catch giant fish and and giant limits.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and now I have a like a piggyback question off of that is like conditions, right? There's certain perfect conditions for every technique and bait that we can throw. What is Ben Milliken's absolute perfect conditions that he knows he is going to go out and catch a giant on a glide bait, like your highest percentage day? What would that be?
SPEAKER_01So that's that's crazy too. That's it's different. I talk about you can catch them all around the country on it, and the cool thing about it is the bite is completely different all around the country, too. Different types of fisheries, they eat it different, different ways, different styles of baits, different types of weather conditions, like uh highland lakes, like when we were at uh 10 killer, and I when I've been at Bull Shoals, Table Rock, those types of lakes, they love uh a really you know a fast twitching style, chopping style bait, uh, with low light conditions, the windier, low light, rain, lightning, doesn't matter. They want that. That's just the best way you're gonna catch them. Um, but then in in in Texas, um, it and again, it's we're just getting super nuanced, like the when they're on a gizzard spawn bite, uh shad spawn, they they will like like a warm, sunny, slick, calm afternoon, and that's when the the gizzards, you know, they get kind of going throughout the day, and it's better in the afternoon. But generally, the rest of the time, um, I'll give some juice. So low light periods like in the morning and then moonrise, moonset, are absolutely huge. You know, that's that's more important to me than sunny, cloudy, windy, rainy. Though those periods are when you want to go out and catch a giant one. And it especially the bigger the moon, it seems like um on the moon set seems like a really good hour, I've heard from people. Like the moon we have going on right now. Yep. That's correct. But it seems like also the bigger the moon, um, the more picky and finicky they are with their bite windows. Like it's a really you know, really tough bite generally when the moon's big on a big bait, but they will be out of their minds for like 20 to 40 minutes.
SPEAKER_02So a K Wall S can be.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I guess, but there's there's no rules, you know.
SPEAKER_00Oh, they make me so mad. Yeah, 100% mad.
SPEAKER_03Hell yeah.
SPEAKER_00Uh well, yeah, and I guess, man, like to piggyback off of that as well. Again, like, do you think we will ever see a four-day event won on a glide bait?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, definitely. I I mean when I won that open at Toledo Bend, I could have won that on a four-day event on a glide, but I also could have won on a Carolina rig or on a deep crank. I was just kind of you know in a good place there. Uh that I was I had three different things going, but um, it's extremely difficult, but it is possible for sure. A lot of people say it won't happen. And usually you don't you don't want that, you don't need that because that glide bite in a tournament is really fickle. You know, you pull so many fish off spots, you have fish eat it wrong, you lose fish. Um, so it's really fickle, but I think so. I I I really, you know, I'm not to take away from anybody else, but uh, if I would have been on it at 10 killer um one day earlier, I I think I could have, you know, top fived it on just a glide.
SPEAKER_02I feel like this narrative, so like three, four years ago, people like what you were saying, oh, it's never gonna happen. I feel like that narrative is fastly changing of okay, I think this could happen because you're I feel like you're seeing it more and more. Maybe it's just because guys are getting more comfortable throwing it. Maybe it's just along with the evolution of we're seeing that category expand. It's more guys spending more time with it, uh, more experience. But I feel like you're seeing that change more of guys are like, okay, I think like you're saying right now, I think it's gonna happen. It's it's possible. More guys are you're seeing it more than they're optional, from guys like yourself to Polinek that's throwing it to you're seeing Trey McKinney catch some giants on it. Like it's you're seeing it show up more, especially on guys that are you know putting up wins or almost winning with that, whether that's part of it or all of it.
SPEAKER_01If you go to uh uh launch for an elite event, it it's it's a lot more of them on the deck than you think, for sure. And it ain't a decoy. Yeah, yeah. I I realize that it's like if I if I post a like a good video or a tip video about it, then it makes it harder to catch it on that bait around the dang country the next year when I go out there. But uh go ahead. Yeah, it's it's it's always an interesting dynamic with that. I get you know, it's it's I'm teaching for a living, so and that's what I want to do. And um, I I don't want to teach my competitors, but it feels good when you know I get hundreds of messages throughout the year saying, you know, look at this 10-pounder, eight-pounder personal best I caught on a draw, on a glide, on on whatever that I watched from your video and and caught them. And it's it's amazing. At the same time, it's like, yeah, it's gonna be tough to go catch them on uh Chickamauga next time when I go down there. You've been throwing a glide on the best spots now for three years. Yeah, comes the territory.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's what I was just gonna ask. Was uh was it like an all crap moment when you feel that, or uh almost a sense of pride, I guess, was gonna be the question of you know, that's a lot because of the momentum that you've pushed out.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's it's definitely a line that I have to tow with my content, always have. Um, obviously, with with places that I fish, I have to be extremely careful sometimes not to show too much about the area. And then, you know, I I don't have a lot of uh secrets anymore. I only got three or four different things that I've never put on camera that's really sneaky. Um, that I I you know you gotta toe the line of of what you're gonna be able to show and what what's gonna you know destroy it. So yeah, it's tough. Yep.
SPEAKER_02It's always uh the comments of someone's asking, oh, isn't that so and so lake, or where are you at? And then they get mad when you don't tell them where yeah, of course, of course, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I well I had a guy up here where I'm at right now. He we were on like you know one of the best spotted lake fisheries in the country, obviously, and he is posting all over Facebook, Hey, I saw I I saw this picture in a story that Ben Melikan posted. He's at this lake in in this part of the town, and and if you if you want to go, I'm gonna I'll probably see him at that boat ramp. So I'm gonna go check it out. It's just like what are you doing, dude? Why? Why? And it's like on his personal, it's not like a comment that I can delete or something, it's just like uh, you know, he's posting online where I'm at. It's like, come on, report.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. I don't know if that's like the the kid in in high school or college or whatever that just needs to feel like he's a part of the group or is cool or have some sort of like I don't know, make him feel better, but I I never understand the comment of like, oh yeah, I fished there before, it's so and so late. Like if you understand that cool, then you should know you probably shouldn't blow that up.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, for sure. Definitely. But there's different parts of the country too. Like, um, one thing I really noticed, like when I listen to Ike's podcast and talk to those guys in the northeast, they'll straight up say, I was fishing this lake, and it'll be like a 300-acre freaking gem, and they'll just drop the name of the lake, they don't care. And uh, I think it's a little bit that way up here too. Um, maybe just places that haven't had to deal with uh, you know, places getting blown out super quick yet. But um, yeah, man, it's uh, you know, people do get really um in their feelings about social media guys, you know, showing spots and showing lakes that are some of their spots, and I can understand that definitely. Um it's like we were talking about earlier, you know. I I you you want to have, you know, I can't think of the word for it, but the uh you don't want to have a uh the mindset where you know you think that um there's only enough for a certain amount of people, like you want you want everyone to be able to win and do well with social media and the fishing industry. But with our sport, you do there is a finite amount of water and fish and bites and information that's out there. Um like like you're saying, they're not gonna, they're not building more fisheries, they're not building more giant reservoirs, they're not building more St. Lawrence rivers. Like uh, I mean, it's and especially the smaller bodies of water, man, they get uh they get beat up and in even the the big ones I've been around Rayburn, you know, that's that like's changed a crazy amount in five years.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, that's that's one thing, you know, with what we do every every other week with the real biology stuff is trying to just stress that like we only have so much of a playing field, so we really need to be stressing more now than ever, you know, the importance of taking care of what we got before what we have is toast. You know, it's agreed, agreed.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, definitely. Yeah. And I and I try to I try to preach to people, you know, to keep bats, to, to eat them, to take them home, to to follow the bag limits of the smaller ones, to because that that that'll help these fishers, especially the super. pressured fisheries more than anything is to to thin out the the smaller the smaller um population but at the same time like you know the fish and game haven't caught up with regulations to account for as many more anglers as there's uh there is out these days you know the last five or ten years so you know and it's it's not everyone you know that you know just to go on a kind of a tangent BASS and Ray Scott you know the catch and release you know take them and and and put them back in the lake was a great thing for tournament fishing but it was a terrible thing for the culture of bass fishing in general because it's created an entire culture of releasing every bass that you catch and that is uh that's not a good thing for for the large majority of fisheries that are over you know a thousand acres so you know it's it's good to keep some smaller ones for sure obviously you don't want to keep a trophy um but at the same time like like I'm saying it we don't want everyone to keep them all either so it's kind of a a a weird line that we have to walk again.
SPEAKER_02Yeah keeping the small ones and that's that's one thing I know is going to be a conversation we got invited down to uh the it's called the Black Bass Symposium is actually down in San Antonio in August um that they're putting on where a lot of not all of them uh New York not being one of them of course uh going down to uh a meeting of the minds if you will of a bunch of state agencies fish biologists and that's one of the things of topic of conversation is reevaluating some of the the crew limits and things like that to adjust for all the pressure that we've seen since COVID you know blowing up and it it's probably gonna have to do that. I feel like and I feel like that's the smart decision uh is states needing to whether they change it or not but going back and constantly re-evaluating you know the fisheries and it doesn't have to be a statewide thing you've seen a lot of lakes that have different regulations than from the lake that's 10 miles down the road from it.
SPEAKER_01So it's yeah of course yeah yeah yeah one one thing that that kind of remains true and it always drove me crazy um growing up in Nebraska I'm not gonna say bad things about the the game of parks over there but it was frustrating that every single lake almost has a 21 inch and over you can keep one and everything else is catcher and lease and it just did not produce good fisheries and the one thing that that I've noticed everywhere that I've been if there's a slot limit that you can keep um some of those like you know under 12 inches or 12 to 18 inches you can keep it it is so much healthier of a big bass fishery it once those slot limits are in place. So I push slot limits as much as possible.
SPEAKER_02Yeah it's we've talked about that a bunch on here it's I don't understand why this isn't a universal practice you know I mean we've seen um Arkansas just came out with a program basically mimicking Texas they call I think it's called razor bass and they're essentially going to do the same thing and I don't understand why more states aren't getting on this program of exactly that you know and it's expensive for sure.
SPEAKER_00Right yeah it's expensive and then it's what type of fishery brings in the most money that and how is the budget allocated right so like the issue with New York State and the reason why they don't give a crap about our bass is you have salmon and steelhead and then you have the walleye fishery like and then and that's all they care about. It brings in millions of dollars the bass fishery is peanuts unfortunately compared to those two yeah so they just keep stocking millions of walleye in Lake Erie and there's every six inches has a walleye in it I swear at this point so kind of crazy yeah I mean it was it's the same way all the the guys I talked to up here in the Pacific Northwest um that they don't care about bass at all.
SPEAKER_01I mean even up here uh in Oregon the spotted bass is not even recognized as like a game fish so like the state record spotted bass was has been caught over and over it's like 10 something and there's you know 12 plus pounders in some of these lakes and they don't even like can't count it as a state record. You can catch it it's a world record of course if you catch a world record but the state record doesn't mean anything and they they just really like a lot of these lakes in Idaho and in Washington they're telling them like kill every bass you catch because they're eating all our trout and salmon and stuff and it's it's pretty wild. But at the same time as you guys know like that's a good thing. You know kill them thin them out then we'll end up with trophy fisheries like there's no one fishing for bass hardly in these places. So I hope it's uh you know we drove the Columbia River Gorge on the way here and I've heard from so many people Columbia River is like you know one of the best smallmouth fisheries on the planet and they people say you catch like over a hundred you know three to five pound smallmouth every day you're out there and um I hope it's somewhere the elite series eventually comes to check out at least out west they were supposed to at one point and then they canceled the whole West Swing. Was that I think 2017 yeah I remember that when that when they had the split I believe is when they uh they had to change the schedule that year.
SPEAKER_00It was right before COVID yeah we might we might see some here soon we'll see fingers crossed fingers crossed I know us as as the fan perspective we would love to see that too I know it yeah me too man yeah well dude we're gonna start wrapping uh some stuff up here and let you go but we got some we got some more fun lighthearted questions here to to wrap this sucker up and let's do it take it away man yeah so uh you know you're fishing a team derby and maybe a few of them going forward you can only choose one angler to be your partner who would it be and why on the on the elites on the elites oh on the elite series yeah um Trey McKinney I would just probably sit back and drink beer in the whole time and just let him catch every fish in the lake I've spent a couple hours on the water with him one day and I was just like what is happening that's you're not a human being so yeah yep I guess on the flip one elite series angler uh obviously if you were to go again and have another bachelor party who would you entrust to uh plan your bachelor party on the elites depends on uh what kind of I mean if I was a bachelor party that means that wouldn't be married.
SPEAKER_02Maybe Corey probably Corey whoever likes to have the most fun yeah that's for sure that's right love it I love it. Uh well dude so last one uh and we're gonna bring this full circle because it's it's been probably four years thing was the first time you've been on the show. Uh and I'd be curious to see how much the uh we'll have to go back and and clip it and see how much if it if it has changed but um taking three different people uh to dinner have a steak and a beer and pick their brain if you can invite three different people could be alive now could be alive thousand years ago doesn't even have to be in the fishing industry uh what three people would you invite to dinner yeah I remember that way back um oh that's tough um I would go with Tom Osborne the great Nebraska best college football coach of all time um definitely him uh definitely my grandpa Mo because I I miss him and uh he got me into fishing and God who who would be my third you'd think it need to be like a fishing legend for sure no I would do uh Kobe for sure I'd have Kobe 100% no question I remember for a fact that you said Kobe the first time too that's the one when I do in the city Nebraska coach for sure coach for sure yep 100% that is I still say I did not change yeah I know I I think I brought it some yep I got got the eight jersey right here in my closet so I need to start rocking that maybe I'll I'll wear it at us uh where are we going next St.
SPEAKER_01Clair there you go hell yeah that's one thing I would be good jersey weather yeah dude one thing I I was joking with Bryant Smith about I was like especially for being out west and driving all over the place because he's got actually um he fishes the the Bam tour Super 60 out west and obviously the elites so he's got two different boats he's got a West boat and a boat for the elites and with how much driving like dang dude how many freaking oil changes do you get and I can't remember the the number he he was telling me on his truck but like dude you should get like a Valvelline instant oil chain sponsorship and then go rock the old freaking like NASCAR jumpsuit piece and we need to bring back some more of this like got to fashion almost to the elites man no I mean I try to have fun with it because it's it's like there is like we're talking about there is not a lot of money to be made out here of fishing tournaments even at the elite series level like we gotta have fun doing it and like got to get some personalities going and try to attract something that has some money to our sport because bass is dumping five million dollars a year into the pot and it's still like everyone's making peanuts it seems like if you're not winning a tournament so um yeah we we need as as much of that as possible.
SPEAKER_02That was the one thing talking with Ken Duke that he said was the one of the bigger issues to the longevity of tournament bass fishing was not enough personalities where everyone's very good at fishing but it's you have the the personalities that are leaving the sport from the Kevin Van Dams to you know the Ike's that we you know considering retirement things like that. And right now you got yourself you got BP you got Matt Robertson and beyond that I mean you got some guys that are trying I think that's that's good if you see more guys get pushed especially whether it's from brands or from peers telling them like hey like show who you are like I think one of the best things that happened to Justin Hamner be obviously besides winning the classic uh was the money from winning the classic to be able to get somebody to help him show who he is because Justin Hamner's one of the freaking funniest dudes on on tour he's a goofball and the more you show that like you said the more you show that more personality the more outside eyes resonate with that more than just being able to go catch a bass.
SPEAKER_01Yeah and I'm not big on the uh obviously I'm I'm I'm not big on the um argument you know like uh these younger kids you know all they can do is live scope and and if you're staring at a screen then you're not you're not you know entertaining to watch and stuff because you know the large joy of fishing is not entertaining to watch anyways it doesn't matter what you're doing but at the same time it it is scary to think about be and I and I you know kind of attribute it to having to be so specialized and spend so much time doing it now um just fishing to be good at it that that's what that's I mean that's the reason that these guys are being extremely successful is because they fish 300 days a year. And when you say you fish 300 days a year that is a number that you know 99.999% of guys can't even get you know don't even fish you know 70 days a year so 300 days a year like and so when you have that amount of time and you're spending that much time on it and you've been doing that since you were 10 years old and you do it in high school and college like you're not gonna develop um a a type of personality that's gonna be entertaining on television you are I don't care if you're throwing a frog if you're flipping if you're twitching a minnow or dragging a jig it don't matter so yeah that is a scary thing to think about as we keep getting more and more specialized like you aren't going to get your regular you know 50 year old old man that's super entertaining that just comes out of your local bass club that is like an anomaly and can just go fish on the elite series like that's that's not possible. I don't know if it ever has been I'm sure it was at one point but like that's that's not gonna happen. So it it and it's not like they're gonna teach you know developing a uh on camera personality in in high school or college fishing clubs like that's that's just you know it's so far out there. So yeah I I totally agree with Ken that that's gonna be something that um is going to be interesting to follow as as tournament fishing progresses along with about a million other things.
SPEAKER_02Yeah well hopefully we'll see more brands put you know talking about marketing dollars putting that emphasis into like if you're gonna sign somebody use that towards not just supporting them and obviously that two-way partnership but like bring who they are to life like I it's one thing I've when I was at my former gig of trying to to push the brands we worked with to do that and you got guys like and you're you're seeing it more obviously with certain groups and uh you can see the effort there like a John Garrett where on camera he might be you know the quiet just hammer stick that's you know he shows some emotion now and then but John Garrett's freaking hilarious you know and it's you can bring if you can emphasize that that direction that that budget towards you know bringing who they are to life on especially on the the social media side we'll see some of that non-endemic dollars come back into Bath so hopefully going down that direction.
SPEAKER_01Yeah I hope so for sure we got a long ways to go though we'll see if we can move that direction and instead of the other direction.
SPEAKER_02Yeah yeah that's right well dude uh before we wrap this sucker up anything else the uh the folks listening or watching uh need to know whether it's you or six cents or anything like that.
SPEAKER_01No man I don't I don't have anything too crazy. Like I said I got this uh this content that's sitting on a hard drive in front of me here that I'm I'm just staring at kind of scared to even start you know putting together because it's like 12 terabytes of uh crazy fishing content but we've got a lot of good stuff coming that I'm excited to share um and then as far as Sixth Sense goes man we're we're constantly releasing new products so I'm excited for all of it um and I'm looking forward to getting back out to uh St. Clair here before too long.
SPEAKER_02Thank you dude I appreciate you guys yeah man thanks for taking the time out and safe travels the rest of the way looking forward to the content that comes from it. Go catch them up go get you a world record because they don't have recognized state right yeah well no no reason to catch a 10 pattern we gotta go straight to 20 hell yeah well appreciate it dude and uh we'll be talking to you soon all right folks that is gonna do it for today's episode as always appreciate Ben for taking time out and uh we'd say go follow him and all that stuff on there but a likely good chance you want to talk to you with him they probably already do.
SPEAKER_00If you if you're not and you somehow live under a rock well then welcome to one of the best content creators uh in all of bass fishing or fishing in general uh so go those links will be down below uh but uh check out some of the new six cents stuff that came out but uh andy any big takeaways from this episode Ben um one it's confidence right in fishing the situation that you like to fish like specifically with glide baits the book always says it's one set thing right like and it's gonna translate all over the country and Ben literally was like talking about how every lake and region they react different to it so you have to fish your confidence but also understand that every lake you go to every body of water is different and I think that's something we can all take away from that is we always try to push what we want to fish but the fish sometimes want something just a little bit different.
SPEAKER_02Adjusting experimenting always obviously rock with the confidence but having pays on the fun that's always numaruno but uh Andy great episode folks appreciate you guys as always for tuning in look forward to next week's episode with John B. And we'll have a seriously western up for you guys on Monday. But uh appreciate you guys as always and we'll see you on the next one.