Why Women Entrepreneurs Need To Protect Themselves, Not Just Their Business with Aimee Schalles of Jointly

In this episode, Laura sits down with Aimee Schalles, co-founder of Jointly, to talk about one of the most important — and often avoided — conversations in relationships: legal protection.

From prenups to cohabitation agreements, this conversation breaks down why these discussions feel so uncomfortable, how to reframe them, and why they’re essential for protecting yourself — especially as a woman navigating modern relationships, finances, and family life. 

In this episode you will hear:

 01:23 — What Jointly is and why it was created 

 03:52 — Why this matters: real-life examples of separation and lack of protection 

 05:12 — Why prenup conversations feel “sticky” (and the common misconceptions) 

 06:27 — Power dynamics, financial protection, and women’s autonomy 

 07:25 — The importance of recognizing unpaid labour and sacrifices 

 08:48 — The mindset barrier: why women hesitate to bring this up 

 09:54 — How to start the conversation in a healthy, collaborative way 

 11:31 — Cohabitation vs. prenup: what’s the difference 

 12:34 — Why AI isn’t the solution for legal agreements 

 14:45 — What makes an agreement enforceable 

 16:41 — When and how you can create or update agreements 

 17:25 — Aimee’s life as a mom, lawyer, and founder 

 19:20 — Setting boundaries and building a business that fits your life 

 21:32 — The inspiration behind Jointly’s business model 

 23:15 — The future vision for Jointly 

Use code TMMB to receive 20% off Jointly prenuptial and cohabitation agreements.

Aimee's Links:

Website: jointly.ca

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jointly.ca

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jointlysolutions/

Join This Mother Means Business : www.thismothermeansbusiness.com

Laura's Links:
• Website
• Laura's Instagram
• LJSocial Instagram 
• LinkedIn
• Facebook
• Pinterest
• TikTok

Transcript

Laura Sinclair (00:13.822)
Welcome back to another episode of This Mother Means Business. We are going to be talking about some very important things today. We're going to be talking about contracts. We're going to be talking about relationships. We're going to be talking about building tech companies and prenups. I'm joined today by Amy Shalas. She is the founder, co-founder of Jointly. Amy, welcome to This Mother Means Business.

Aimee Schalles (00:35.356)
Yeah, thanks for having me. Really excited to be here.

Laura Sinclair (00:37.766)
I always love a conversation that is rooted in some really practical, important information that's being delivered by a mom entrepreneur. Your kids are, you told me before we started recording, three and five. So you are building this thing in the, you're in it right now with little kids. And it has a really, really practical application. I'm a person that, I told you this before we started, has a pre-nup. I did not do it the way that you're offering it now.

but I think that it's really important and I know that this is a topic for a lot of people that, might find it to be like kind of sticky and weird and awkward. And we're going to do our best to make it not so awkward. Right, Amy?

Aimee Schalles (01:16.968)
Correct, that's what we're here for.

Laura Sinclair (01:18.572)
Awesome. Well, do you mind introducing yourself and giving us a little bit of an overview of what jointly is?

Aimee Schalles (01:23.24)
Sure. So my name's Amy. I'm a practicing lawyer in British Columbia. Mom of two kids. I live in a small community in the interior of British Columbia called Revelstoke here for skiing and lifestyle and small town life. I started practicing at a big law firm in Vancouver where I met my co-founder Amanda. And yeah, my practice generally involved all sorts of things. Real people law. You know, we deal with ordinary people in a small town. And I was seeing that

For many people, ordinary folks with jobs and regular salaries, that legal services were out of reach. And I saw a lot of people coming into my office trying to find ways to save money by pulling a template online to get started and then saying, hey, can you review this just to make sure that it's good? And lots of times it was, they tried, but it was garbage. It was from California or just something that didn't make any sense at all. And Amanda's a very good friend of mine.

at the same time that I was having this experience in my practice, she went through bad separation and was kicking herself in the butt that as a lawyer, why didn't she have a prenup? Why didn't she have a separation agreement? She knew she, or sorry, not a separation agreement. Why didn't she have a cohabitation agreement before that? She knew better, but the conversation was too weird to have, so she didn't and then paid for it dearly afterwards. I can't even remember how it started because it was a few years ago now, but.

our mutual experiences led us to discussing why isn't there something better? And I've always been interested in the intersection between technology and laws and way that we could make it more accessible to people. So we decided to build Jointly, which is an online platform for people to work with their partner to educate themselves about family law, learn what they're getting into and what the defaults are, and then to use a guided questionnaire to build an agreement themselves.

and then maybe take to a lawyer to get independent legal advice if that's what they so decide and what we recommend. But what we were finding is that people wanted to get agreements like this in place or they had informal discussions, but they weren't following through on it because the process was too weird, starting it with lawyers and going through it, or it was too expensive. And we were hoping to bridge that gap to help people not find themselves in the same position that Amanda found herself in and that...

Aimee Schalles (03:47.836)
you frankly, in your late 30s and early 40s, start to see quite a few people that you know in.

Laura Sinclair (03:52.078)
Yeah. I was just about to say I'm 39 and I've seen quite a few of my friends go through this and varying degrees of documentation in place and varying degrees of friendliness in those circumstances, right? Sometimes they'll start friendly and then turn not friendly. And I think that it's important, you know, we've had Jamie Bell on the show and she owns Contracts Market and we talked about, which I'm sure you're familiar with from a business

Aimee Schalles (04:20.274)
We know Jamie, yep.

Laura Sinclair (04:21.41)
Well, perfect. We had this conversation from a protecting your business perspective, but I think it's also really important to consider all of the ways that we need to be protected just as people as we enter relationship. And I told you this before we started recording, but I'm a person that's been sued. so having, you know, documentation contracts, things like that in place are so incredibly important. But I want to start with something that you mentioned just around how like these conversations can just feel really

sticky for folks so they just don't have them because I think the energy and you can correct me if I'm wrong is like well we're going into this to get married like why would we talk about getting divorced or we're moving in together this is such an exciting moment why how why would we talk about what happens if things go wrong why why is that why is it that we struggle with it and what's the reframe we can use

Aimee Schalles (05:12.712)
Yeah, I think people struggle with it because sometimes they think, they assume that having this conversation means that there's a seed of doubt in their mind about the relationship or they're planning to split down the road. And, you know, that's not it at all in my view. Nobody ever gets into a car thinking, I'm going to have a car accident today, so I better put my seatbelt on. They put their seatbelt on just in case that happens, you know, because you don't know, have no idea what direction life's going to take you despite best intentions. And

Statistically, many relationships, 50 % or more, don't work out. And we've all seen people have bad separations. And nobody in advance would choose that for themselves. But they can choose to put the seatbelt on just in case and make a plan for themselves that has a more peaceful exit than having no plan in place whatsoever. And so I think it's a misguided thought.

something we have to push through as a society. And I think we're getting better at having these conversations, especially as become more plugged into financial literacy and women become more and more the breadwinners in their home and whatnot. think women are a little better at initiating these kinds of conversations or thinking about these things as proactive planning. But it's just a shift we need to go through as a society.

Laura Sinclair (06:27.874)
Yeah, I love that you named that. feel like that is really interesting in this moment as women really are, they have more wealth. I know there's been studies that have been done around it on the shifting, the changing hands of wealth. And I feel like we need to protect each other, protect ourselves. I mean, thing that Amy that like keeps me up at night sometimes is when I'm in my like Facebook group, basic moms groups. And this is part of what keeps me motivated as a person that helps entrepreneurial mothers, but

when women are, you they want to leave their partner, but they have no, they have no income, they haven't been making money. Maybe they don't, they most likely don't have a prenuptial agreement in place, or maybe they do have something that really protects the one party over the other. These are the things that keep me up at night. It's like, I want women to be as autonomous as they can, and to have as much money as they can, and to be informed about the decisions that they're making when they're entering relationships where there are power dynamics.

Aimee Schalles (07:17.928)
Totally.

Aimee Schalles (07:25.704)
Totally, and part of that conversation that we're really trying to push is that this recognition of all the unpaid labor that women often do and the sacrifices they make. you know, if for example, you go into a relationship and you start and you're both working and you have a career, and then one of you, because of the decision to have children, decides to give your career back or you move because of your partner's job, but you know, the career opportunities aren't quite the same for you there.

Laura Sinclair (07:34.434)
neighbor.

Aimee Schalles (07:54.279)
you need to get an agreement in place there right from the outset that says, hey, I'm prepared to do this for you. This is what's best for our family or I'd like to stay home, but my sacrifice and my contribution should be valued. So at this juncture in our life, before we take this big step of moving or having kids, let's recognize that I'm giving something up here and that if we were to separate that, if for example, I'm.

going to be paid spousal support so I can get back up on my feet because we're making this decision as a unit, both romantically and economically to do this. And this is a respectful, open conversation about what's fair for everybody. And bringing it up in that context in advance, I think is a lot different than having it after you've split where there's likely some sort of animosity to varying degrees, as you point out.

to try and get some recognition for your contributions. Women need to step up and take charge of that conversation in advance.

Laura Sinclair (08:48.866)
Yeah, I agree. And I mean, I even am sitting here as we're having this conversation. I know there's someone listening to this that like is feeling just like the pit, you know, and they're like, that feels so sticky. And that feels so it feels yucky. And I do think that, you know, if we're going to have a little patriarchy conversation for a second, and why not? It's like women aren't we're not supposed to do these things. You know, it's like when I think about the way that I was raised.

Aimee Schalles (09:07.134)
Yeah.

Laura Sinclair (09:13.998)
It was like, you're going to like stir the pot. You're going to be a person that like creates an issue. Don't create an issue where there isn't one. And I mean, I, to your point, like, no, we need, this is an issue we need to create. This is something that you absolutely need to bring up. And now you mentioned your co-founder going through a difficult divorce. I've seen it. I've seen it with my clients. I've seen it with my friends. And like, this is, this stuff can get ugly. And we certainly don't want to go into any relationship, whether it's a working relationship or romantic relationship being like,

this could blow up in our face and become really nasty. But I'm a big believer that contracts save friendships. And in this case, contracts save relationships, potentially.

Aimee Schalles (09:50.558)
Absolutely.

Aimee Schalles (09:54.047)
And that's the thing as well, is that one of the things that we end up talking with people a lot is how to start this conversation because it does feel awkward. I think what it is about a way to have that conversation with a little more neutrality is to talk about choosing peace, to say, I never want this to happen for us, I'm madly in love with you, we've got exciting plans for the future, but we saw...

Kevin and Mary go through the separation and it was bad and neither of us want that. I love you and I don't want this for us if it doesn't work out. Let's get an arrangement in place that's going to help make the separation more smooth for both of us so that we can put ourselves, our careers, our kids, whatever it is first and not get stuck on these details. And I think that's...

Like nobody looks at a bad split and wants that for themselves. And that's a way of framing the conversation that isn't like, hey, I'm here to lawyer up and make sure you don't get any of my stuff. Because that's, think, a misguided, outdated view of what a prenup is supposed to be about.

Laura Sinclair (10:46.306)
No.

Laura Sinclair (11:00.28)
Yeah, I love that reframe. You're choosing peace for everyone.

Aimee Schalles (11:03.262)
Choosing P's for yourself. I mean, if you think about it, people do that all the time in terms of making a will. They'll say, I want to make a will because I want to make this easy for my family if something happens to me and they're going through a tough time. Creating a prenuptial or a cohabitation agreement is the same but for yourself and your partner. You know, want to make this, it's going to be one of the hardest things you go through in your life. So you just want to put a plan in place that makes it easier for you to get through that and to focus on yourself or your family and moving on from it.

Laura Sinclair (11:31.372)
And could a cohabitation agreement apply to a non-romantic partnership as well?

Aimee Schalles (11:36.486)
That's a bit of a different circumstance in some provinces it can, like particularly in Alberta, it can deal with two adults who are interdependent on each other. But typically speaking, a cohabitation agreement is meant to be between romantic partners, and that's certainly what our platform's geared towards.

Laura Sinclair (11:46.22)
Yeah.

Laura Sinclair (11:54.326)
Awesome. so, and educate me a little bit on the difference between a cohabitation agreement and a prenuptial agreement.

Aimee Schalles (12:00.135)
Excellent question. So cohabitation agreement is between people who live together who aren't married. Maybe they never plan on getting married or maybe they're just moving into each other and five years down the line they're going to get married. A prenuptial agreement is something that people specifically enter into just before they're going to get married. They cover the same types of things like what's going to happen in terms of property division or spousal support, but in many provinces, Ontario included, you know, getting married is...

there's a big change in the default laws as to what your rights would be. So it's a juncture where people are thinking about these things, but it's just timing, really.

Laura Sinclair (12:34.796)
Yeah. And is there, you know, we're in this AI age, right? Where you can ask cloud or chat GPT to whip up an agreement of anything, for anything, you know, business contracts, life contracts. What would be the difference between like using a tool like jointly versus good old AI? Bad old AI in this instance. Yeah.

Aimee Schalles (12:56.872)
Good old AI, good old, good, good. There's pros and cons, but part of what the advantage of using Rtool is, is that Rtool also comes with a course to help educate people on what the default state of laws is. So they can really be informed going into an agreement, which is part of what makes an agreement enforceable. know, did you really understand what you were getting into, what you were giving up, all of that. So it allows you to be educated before you make

Laura Sinclair (13:09.902)
Hmm.

Aimee Schalles (13:25.224)
have those conversations or make those choices with your partner. And in addition, you know, we're not anti-AI, but our platform's not premised on AI. The language that's in our agreement's still been reviewed and drafted by lawyers. Obviously, it's not necessarily tailored to your individual circumstances, but there's some confidence there that there's not some hallucination, which unfortunately happens quite often still. And we've tried really hard to be comprehensive in both our course and agreement to cover lots of things that

you may not think of. That's the thing with AI. It could spit something out, and if you're not a lawyer or you don't have experience doing this, you may not know what the agreement might be missing or you haven't thought of X, Y, or Z.

Laura Sinclair (14:07.096)
Yeah, it's just not worth rolling the dice on for something like that because you don't. Yeah.

Aimee Schalles (14:09.914)
It's an important agreement, yeah. There's a place for AI in our society. I don't think this is one of them.

Laura Sinclair (14:16.546)
Yeah, no, I would agree. would agree with that. Like same with business contracts, contracts of any kind, right? Like why, if you're signing a contract on something, it's because it's pretty important. And why would you roll the dice on something that, I mean, ultimately, certainly in this instance, like can have major implications for your life. It's not just, you know, a business scenario that didn't go well. It's this is your entire life that it's sort of hinging on.

Aimee Schalles (14:38.238)
Absolutely.

Laura Sinclair (14:45.836)
I love that. so tell me about, you know, is there a process for like legalizing the documents or I just go on, I create my pre-nup, I signed it, my partner signed it, I'm good to go. Is that, is it that easy?

Aimee Schalles (14:59.118)
Yeah, that differs a little from province to province. Some provinces require you to get independent legal advice to go meet with a lawyer and get them to sign a certificate saying, yes, Laura understood this agreement. No one is forcing her to sign it, things like that. Alberta is one of those provinces. BC and Ontario don't have that requirement in the legislation saying, unless you have the certificate from a lawyer, it'll never be enforceable. However, we always recommend it. There's no...

There's no hard and fast rule of what a prenup needs to be enforceable, but there's a lot of things that go into it. So it being in writing and signed is, those are the hard and fast rules. You know, I digress the bare minimum, but adding layers of protection on top of it, like, did you understand it? Were you educated in it? Did you give each other full financial disclosure? And the last one being, have you seen a lawyer? These are all things that can help to make it more enforceable. And that's ultimately what people want at the end of the day.

So we recommend that they do take this agreement and go and meet a lawyer and chat with them about it. And that sometimes begs the question, well, why don't I do that from the get-go? You can. But part of the reason why you might go through jointly first is because we offer a way to educate yourself and approach the conversation in a way that's a little more collaborative and loving with your partner as opposed to each going to a lawyer immediately. And two, which feels weird during bankers hours and whatnot.

I've had that feedback in my own practice from a lot of people that it feels kind odd. Secondly, it can maybe help you save on some costs. Maybe just engaging the lawyer to do the review at the end as opposed to lots of back and forth drafting.

Laura Sinclair (16:41.634)
Yeah. Okay, this is so interesting. Can you enter into a cohabitation agreement after you've already moved in together or after you're married? Is that possible?

Aimee Schalles (16:48.754)
Yes, yes you can. Yeah, after you get married, we'd call it a postnuptial agreement or in Ontario, you'd call it a marriage contract. But yeah, you can enter it into it at any point in your relationship. And in fact, when you enter into one, it shouldn't just be a set it and forget it. You should be reevaluating as your life changes, you know, after you have kids and so on and so forth, and maybe updating your agreement because something that just sits on a shelf and collects dust for 20 years, what you've become, you know, fully financially integrated and.

had kids and everything like that may not be enforceable as something that you regularly review and update to reflect your circumstances, just like a will.

Laura Sinclair (17:25.046)
Yeah, okay. I love it. Okay, I want to shift gears a little bit and talk about you and talk about your work at a law firm still actively, your own firm. Okay, Amy, you're so interesting. You run your own law firm, you're building jointly, and you have two children. That's a lot. That's a very full plate.

Aimee Schalles (17:29.202)
Let's do it.

Aimee Schalles (17:33.266)
Yes.

My own firm, yep.

Aimee Schalles (17:46.534)
It's a lot. Yeah, I'm not going to minimize that at all. It's a lot.

Laura Sinclair (17:50.496)
Yeah. What does your support system look like to navigate all of these things?

Aimee Schalles (17:54.175)
Well, my support system, I have a great spouse. He works seasonally. So in the wintertime, he's very, very busy. And that, you know, it's tense time of year for all of us, but has a lot more flexibility in the springs and the falls to help out. But he's a true partner and parent in every sense of word. So I'm really grateful to have that. But we live far away from family. We have no family in town. So our support system is a really solid group of friends who are in the same boat.

being far away from family and who's one member of the couple often work seasonally and very busy, but we all really band together and help each other out and they are an indispensable part of my sanity.

Laura Sinclair (18:34.286)
Yeah, I imagine when you live in Revelstoke, I'm actually quite jealous when I heard you say that. was like, ah, that sounds amazing. So seasonal work, yeah, I mean, that makes sense. And I love that you sort of name that you have people that you lean on. I think this is an important piece. You mean you're doing three big things and probably a bunch of other things on top of that, maybe for you or your kids. don't know, like they're not quite in Asia where they're in a ton of activities, are they?

Aimee Schalles (18:39.795)
Yeah.

Aimee Schalles (19:01.328)
No, we're not a of activities, but we are in an age where there's sometimes a ton of screaming, so wish every mom might.

Laura Sinclair (19:06.592)
A ton of screaming. Yep. Yes, I have a five-year-old and yes, that is very, very true. Very true. How do you find sort of space to navigate all of these things like priority wise?

Aimee Schalles (19:20.22)
Yeah, I'm not going claim to be some guru about this kind of thing or have a magic bullet, but I've always tried to be really intentional about carving out the life that I want. And that boils down on a day to day basis. You know, like I left a big law firm, you know, more prestigious, big money career path to be here in Revelstoke because it reflected the lifestyle we want. I run my own law firm because it allows me to have control. I downsized my law firm a couple of years ago.

to try and make it so that I had a little less on my plate so I could give more time to my family. And I'd really try to do that on a day-to-day basis as well to draw hard lines between work and time with my family. I basically work in my law firm 20 to 30 hours a week. Don't check my email outside of that. Don't take meetings in the evenings. And try to draw boundaries as much as I can so that when I'm at home, I'm as undistracted as I can be and that that time is for me.

and my kids, but it's a very busy season in life. I didn't know how busy I was gonna be before I had kids, to be frank.

Laura Sinclair (20:24.394)
I mean, I think about the my childless self and how I thought I was busy and tired. And I look back at that time, and I just laugh because, you know, that was what busy and tired look like for me then and busy and tired looks a lot different for me now.

Aimee Schalles (20:41.008)
Exactly. And that's also part of the reason that jointly exists, to be frank, is a lot of legal work is tied to your time, like you're billing your time out. And I've tried to shift both my practice and starting jointly, try to find ways that I can help people and provide value and, you know, provide this expertise that I love to share with people to help people out, but in a way that can be a little bit more scalable, a little bit detached from the actual

Laura Sinclair (20:51.822)
and

Aimee Schalles (21:09.724)
hours that my bum is in my chair at my office because that's not realistic for me anymore as a parent. And it's just, I don't find it very interesting from a business perspective either. you like, it's trying to have a values-based business that reflects what I want out of my life and keeping those values forefront and the, you know, professional satisfaction I get from doing something that's important, but also in a way that, that makes sense.

Laura Sinclair (21:32.962)
Yeah, I love that you name that, right? As we move into different seasons, we want different things. Maybe there's a version of yourself that was like, I will happily work 40, 50 hours a week and do the thing. And then, yeah, you become a mom and you recognize actually my priorities are different. Or as you get older, you recognize that your priorities are different. building something that is scalable, but also meets people where they're at, which I think is really interesting. The product market, if it makes sense, in that people should have

prenups and cohabitation agreements, but they are quite expensive to hire a lawyer and do them all custom. That's, I mean, I don't know, what is the cost? What would the cost be to have that done?

Aimee Schalles (22:14.174)
Yeah, our research suggests somewhere between $2,500 to $5,000 for both sides to get a lawyer and do that. Yeah, it's a lot. And there's a time commitment with that as well where you have to go to their office and meet with them and take time out of your work day or whatever. So there's a few barriers to entry, cost being one of them and timing being another.

Laura Sinclair (22:20.503)
Yeah, that's a lot.

Laura Sinclair (22:35.266)
Yeah. And what's the investment for a jointly prenuptial agreement or cohabitation agreement?

Aimee Schalles (22:41.595)
We are currently priced at $429. Yeah.

Laura Sinclair (22:44.256)
Okay, and that's that start to finish.

Aimee Schalles (22:47.538)
That's start to finish. We offer our course online for free. People just got to go and sign up and then you can start learning. And then when you're ready to build an agreement, that's the $429 that gives you access to our agreement builder to go through and fill out the questionnaire. And it'll spit out a fully formatted, ready to go agreement that talks about Joe and Sarah and all the assets you have and what Joe and Sarah might want and so on and so forth.

Laura Sinclair (23:06.733)
Yeah.

I love that. I love it. what's the goal for jointly when you think about as you know, as you build your business, what's the big goal?

Aimee Schalles (23:15.172)
Good question. We want to reach more people, just obviously from a business perspective, but also because we think it's time for this conversation. So we'd love to expand into all provinces. We'd love to have some partnerships with financial institutions where that's, we become part of their offering to their clients is something that people are thinking about on ongoing basis. We'd also love to expand into basic separation agreements on the other side of a relationship as well.

Laura Sinclair (23:42.577)
and

Aimee Schalles (23:42.621)
because as people will probably find, sometimes they have a split, it's maybe not acrimonious, but they own maybe no kids, they just have a house with their partner and they need a separation agreement to deal with the refinancing of their house before the bank will deal with it. And they need something simple and straightforward and it's complicated and takes time for them to get that sorted. So we'd love to work in that space as well. And longer term, kind of like to be, we would like to be the leading consumer voice on family law.

as an entry point for people to start to look into these things and educate themselves and build basic agreements without what their circumstances dictate. Yeah.

Laura Sinclair (24:20.574)
I love that. That's very cool. Very cool. I think it's so important to protect yourself, whether it's business or personally. And I'm really grateful for you coming and having this conversation with us about something that maybe feels a little sticky for some folks.

Aimee Schalles (24:35.038)
It's a little sticky and if people are still wondering about that, there are some blog posts and whatnot on our website about how you might want to talk to your partner about getting one of these agreements in place. But please do it. Please save both the heartache. And if you're woman, think about how our rules are shifting and get something in place that is fair for both of you instead of taking that for granted. And yeah, thanks for having us today. I'm really excited to talk about these things.

Laura Sinclair (24:59.288)
Yeah, protect yourself. That is the that is the key takeaway from the show today. Protect yourself. Amy, where can we learn more about jointly and figure out how to get our own agreements?

Aimee Schalles (25:09.736)
Sure, you can visit us online at jointly.ca and on Instagram at, again, jointly.ca is our handle.

Laura Sinclair (25:17.378)
We love that. Good and consistent. We'll make sure that we put all of the links in the show notes. Be sure to check out the website, check out their social media if it feels like it's something that you need. I'm all about bringing you things that you need to know about and certainly to my Canadian friends. We do love our US listeners, but this one's for our Canadian listeners. Amy, thank you for coming and sharing your story with us. I'm excited to see where jointly goes.

Aimee Schalles (25:20.188)
Yeah, thanks. We try.

Aimee Schalles (25:41.842)
Yeah, thanks, Laura.

Yeah, me too.

Laura Sinclair (25:46.702)
Thank you for listening. We'll see you in the next episode.