SPEAKER_00 0:16

The question is, are you listening?

SPEAKER_01 0:24

Welcome everybody to the Real Strength Podcast. Jeff Klingberg here, Brianna Charnecki, and we are here to help you to gain understanding on some things and to encourage you towards strength. That's why it's called the Real Strength Podcast. We want to give you stuff that's going to help you get strong in the Lord. So take it away.

SPEAKER_05 0:43

Yeah, we talk about things that bring strength in your spirit, soul, and body. And one of the ways that we are getting strong as a community in our spirit is we're in a series called Foundations. Foundational.

SPEAKER_01 0:53

Foundations.

SPEAKER_05 0:54

Foundations.

SPEAKER_01 0:55

Foundational, either way. Hebrews 6, 1 and 2.

SPEAKER_05 0:58

And we just covered, we have lots of topics today, so I'm going to follow my content on my computer. We just covered the conversation about the resurrection of the dead. And as you and I are preparing for our discussion today, you had some thoughts about um some elements of what it means that we are going to be resurrected at the end. And I would love to hear more, just some deeper thoughts, things that didn't make it into the Sunday sermon just because of time, but you think it's really important for believers to know.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

Well, one of the things that's important to know is that everyone who has ever been born has died, except those that are still alive. And everyone who has died, every single person ever in the history of mankind on planet earth, from Adam all the way to whatever babies around the world are being born right now, every single one that has died will be resurrected. There won't be anyone who's dead that won't be resurrected at the end of the age. So it's important to understand that in God's sovereign plan, he appointed life and death. So he appointed a beginning of life here on the planet He created for us to dwell on, and He created an end to that. And so when we understand one of the foundations of the faith, which is the resurrection of the dead, and I love the foundations of the faith, most Christians don't know them, and they think of it as advanced teaching and advanced theology, but really it's a basic, it's a foundational element. We taught about the importance of a good foundation. And in Texas, most of our foundations are slabs. So they are there, they're, you know, the earth is tabled, so to speak, or made ready for a slab which is reinforced. Sometimes peers go down even further. Solid, solid foundation. And that's what I desire. What the teaching team here desires for the Christ followers at High Ridge is to have a really, really solid foundation, but yet they don't even know what the six elements are. And so the fifth of the six is the resurrection of the dead. And that is what happens toward the end of the age, not the very end, but toward the end of the age, uh, when the transition is happening from life as we know it now, transitioning into the resurrection of the dead, uh the rapture of the church, um, which then goes to the last foundational principle, which is going to be this week, which is the judgment or judgments. There's two. And um but anyway, something that I don't think we covered enough is is the fact that everyone born who has died will be resurrected. Be them a Christ follower or not, they will be resurrected.

SPEAKER_05 3:34

Yeah. And for some believers, they hear that and they're like, well, what's the big deal? How does that affect my faith, my decision making, my life right now? If it's going to happen after I'm dead and gone, why would this matter to them?

SPEAKER_01 3:47

Well, all of humanity, all of humanity has a timeline that's beyond what we have on this side of heaven. Our timeline is an eternal timeline. So once you're born, you enter into the rest of eternity. So it's part of being image creation. Uh, God is not bound by time and space. He always has been, he is, he always will be. Um if if he could be bound by time and space, then he couldn't be God. So he's a he's beyond time and space. So in the in the created order, image creation, human beings, we're creating God's image, there's an element of that that dwells within us. In our DNA, the moment that we're born, we become an eternal being for the rest of time. Now we do have a death, or or unless you're here until the end, when you're when you're lifted uh as a Christ follower, when lifted off the earth by Christ Himself, typically called the rapture, but we're here for eternity. And so whether you believe in Christ or not, doesn't stop the fact, you will exist for from now on.

SPEAKER_05 4:48

So the resurrection is not it's it's uh it's it's just of your body. It's not you entirely, spirit, soul, and body, it's just your body is resurrected.

SPEAKER_01 4:59

Um well yes, let me think uh just your body.

SPEAKER_05 5:05

Because if we die and we're eternal beings, we go on into eternity. Then what is this resurrection at the end?

SPEAKER_01 5:12

Okay, I see what you're saying. Yes, it is the resurrection of your body, your earth suit.

SPEAKER_05 5:15

And why does that happen?

SPEAKER_01 5:17

Um, because we're created in the image of God, and if we have accepted the the life that God has for us, uh then our judgment will will primarily be on the life that we lived. Uh but if we have not accepted Christ, so people of all ages and all times that that didn't choose to believe God in the flesh, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came and don't believe that, then their life takes a drastic turn for the rest of eternity after the resurrection of the dead. So once everyone is resurrected, then all of humanity stands before their creator, all of image creation stands before their creator. And not to get into what's going to be taught this week, but then there are two judgments that take place.

SPEAKER_05 6:03

Yeah. Well, I'm just thinking about the person who's listening to this and they're trying to wrap their head around. We quickly dove really deeply into a very profound topic, and they're probably like, what are where are we at where what's happening in the timeline? So you're saying everyone is going to die. Everyone who has died, everyone who's living now will die. Unless they're alive when Jesus comes back, their body is going to die. So for everyone who has died and will die, that body will go into the ground and become dust and all the stuff. Or the ocean or yeah, we'll get into that in a second, because I do have questions about burial. But that body is is has passed, has expired its time, and now we, our spirit and soul, move on into eternity. So what what form Well if our body is buried, what form are we in?

SPEAKER_01 6:54

Well, so there's three parts. See the question? There's three parts to us. It's it's a complex question with uh the end any way that that question is answered is going to be insufficient. But we're three parts spirit, soul, body. If you are not a Christ follower, your spirit is still dead. The moment that you receive Christ as your savior and Lord to forgive your sins, come in and take over your life, then your spirit is quickened or brought to life. Uh then everyone has a soul. So so those that don't follow Christ have a spirit that hasn't been brought alive yet by God. Those who believe in God have a spirit that has been brought alive by God, is alive, and and the very presence of God Himself, the form of the Holy Spirit, dwells within our mortal body. That's that's in the scripture. Then we have a soul. So we are a spiritual being. Everybody, every human being is a spiritual being, be it alive to God or dead to God. And then we possess a soul. And the word soul is a Greek word suke, which is where we get our in English the study of psyche, psychology, psychiatry, study of the mind. And uh that has three parts mind, will, and emotions. And then you can find this in Hebrews chapter four. And then we have a temporary earth suit that we dwell in, and I call it the earth suit because it is imperfect, but after the resurrection of the dead and after the judgment, then our bodies will be made uh eternal in the sense that they for those in heaven, it'll be a perfect earth suit. And so we will then go on forever with God in heaven in a in a non-broken body. So what happens at death, that's what you're intimating. Yep. It it's very many various and different beliefs, but I believe that um our timeline is not God's timeline. Correct. So a day to the Lord is like a thousand years and a thousand years is a day. That's in the scripture. So look that one up. Just just search a thousand years or a day and a thousand. And so that tells me that time is not as significant to God in the sense that of how significant it is to us. He's always been. Right. So a second is nothing to him. Yeah, a year is nothing to him. For us, it's big. We we evaluate on we evaluate on seconds, on hours, on days. We are constantly in this time focus. And so, but I believe at the point of death, the next thing that a Christ follower will know in regards to their soul being aware of and having knowledge, the psyche being activated, there'll be the moment of death, then the very next second, what they will know is the presence of God at the judgment, not to jump ahead, but the judgment that separates believers and unbelievers. Yeah, that's the very next thing they know.

SPEAKER_05 9:38

So you're saying we won't know a reality without a recognition of our body. We won't know a reality where we're not in a form of what we know and see now.

SPEAKER_01 9:49

You mean in a non-physical state, in just a spiritual state?

SPEAKER_03 9:53

Correct.

SPEAKER_01 9:54

Well, that comes into the debate then. If your spirit is perfect, it's the same spirit that rose Christ Jesus from the dead, the spirit of God made our bodies his temple, it's the it's the the life of God within us, then the belief would be at the moment of death, then that goes to be with the Lord, because that's already perfect. So that which is perfect can dwell with that which is perfect, uh, our spirit dwelling with God's spirit, but that which is imperfect can't, without there being a recognition of first of all, the the believer-unbeliever judgment, and then the accountability judgment. And that's what this week's teaching is going to be on, which you keep getting close to, but I don't want to teach too much about it.

SPEAKER_05 10:30

Let's say just in the realm of person who has died, timeline, and that and what's happening, the body is dead. Now spirit and soul have moved into eternity, but you're saying the next moment we'll know in our spirit and soul will be when we're rejoined with that body, or will we have any sort of conscious reality before?

SPEAKER_01 10:53

Okay, so at the resurrection of the dead, our soul um is joined with our resurrected body.

SPEAKER_05 10:59

Correct.

SPEAKER_01 11:00

That's what I believe.

SPEAKER_05 11:01

So what happens between now and then? So souls that have already passed. You're saying God's outside of time.

SPEAKER_01 11:06

Well, there have been very various theologians that have tried to capture the concept. Ultimately, we don't know.

SPEAKER_05 11:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 11:12

We'll find out once we get on the other side.

SPEAKER_05 11:14

That's the clarity we need, but now I want your opinion.

SPEAKER_01 11:17

Okay, so um theologians believe it different ways. Some call it a soul rest, others find that to be anathema, just completely ridiculous.

SPEAKER_05 11:26

Can you define the word anathema?

SPEAKER_01 11:28

Um uh bla uh blasphemous is not the right word. Um, not of God. Uh the apostle Paul used the word. It when he was aggravated, he the word he would use is anathema. That's not not good, not blessed, not of God. I didn't look the word up.

SPEAKER_05 11:43

It's just like a human assumption.

SPEAKER_01 11:46

Uh it's more than that. But anyway, I'm trying to answer your other question. You just threw in. You just threw one in. Now you got me. Which question do you want me to answer? Go back to one we were on, so and redefine, re-re restate.

SPEAKER_05 12:00

You're talking about soul rest, and you say soul rest is like an anathema.

SPEAKER_01 12:04

But the important thing to remember is is our timeline, although directed and guided and overseen by God, is not his timeline.

SPEAKER_05 12:11

I totally understand that.

SPEAKER_01 12:13

He's outside of time and space. So to keep him, to keep the Almighty in the realm of time and space, then we have to be able to define everything according to our understanding, and we can't.

SPEAKER_05 12:25

Yeah. So there's a big unknown. So that we our bodies die, our soul and our spirit are not with the dead body. I mean, this is gonna sound maybe morbid but or hard to to say on a podcast, but the truth is, like, I've been around people after they've passed, as you have as well. Pastoring being with people, you say pastoring is marrying, burying, and loving them from every life stage in between. And there is something that happens where you look at that body, and and as soon as they pass, you're like, oh, they're no longer there anymore.

SPEAKER_01 13:00

Right. You can see sometimes, and it's actually been captured on video as well, you can see the spirit, the glow, because Proverbs 17 says, The spirit of the man is the lamp of the Lord. It's either chapter 17 or chapter 20, uh illumining the innermost parts. I believe that's the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. And people have seen that before. I haven't, but it's even been captured on video of the life or the glow of the Lord at the moment of death, leaving and lifting. And I believe for Christ's followers, that means that we that part of us goes to be with the Lord. I believe the soul is some would call it inactive, uh, soul rest, but our why mind, will, and emotions won't be working because our body is dead. And so, really, we we a lot of times as Christians, we tap our heart, you know, about our soul.

SPEAKER_03 13:48

Right.

SPEAKER_01 13:48

Well, that was the Greek mindset, cardiac heart. Really, we're talking about the space in our brain that covers about three inches. Mind, will, and emotions are all here. Our soul is here.

SPEAKER_03 13:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:59

So when we're dead, our brain is dead. And so, just as our body is dead, and so the the ones that believe that way believe no, the soul just goes into a a dead state, a state of rest. Yeah. A state of just suspension of like a pause. A pause, a nothing. Because see, if if you believe immediately upon death, the soul goes to the presence of God, then you've got to believe in an ongoing uh believer-unbeliever judgment.

SPEAKER_05 14:31

Right. Which is where some people start to get with the idea of purgatory. Some some people, especially in Catholics.

SPEAKER_01 14:38

The halfway place. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 14:39

Backdrops, backgrounds, will believe in this now. Suspension, it where do they go? Well, that's what has to be purgatory, and that's why purgatory is a big question amongst believers. And this is deep topics, but they're also not commonly discussed or studied, but trip people up when it comes to Christianity because it starts to become it starts to become divisive. It's not meant to be divisive, but it is mysterious.

SPEAKER_01 15:03

Yeah. So at any rate, if if you believe that the believer-unbeliever or sheep goat's judgment is ongoing, that it's not a point in time, then you can justify the soul going to the presence of God. But the Bible doesn't show that, it shows an event. The first event uh of the judgments is the believer-unbeliever or sheepgoat's judgment. That's an event in time. And because that which is unholy, uh the soul of an unbeliever is unholy. There hasn't been a holiness or the Spirit of God given into that body or into that soul to cover it and take over it and to provide a glow to that person's life. And so you'd have to believe that. Then you'd also have to believe that when believers die, you'd have to believe in an ongoing white throne judgment or um an accounting judgment. That's the word used both times. I'll teach that this Sunday. Uh you'd have to believe that that's ongoing as well. Because even those of us that are holy, in the sense that we have our sins have been forgiven, we have the presence of God within us, we have a renewed mind, renewed joy in life. Still, we've made mistakes that we haven't made right with God, and that that which is unholy can't be in the presence of God in the third heaven where where it's completely holy. Right.

SPEAKER_05 16:23

So So, in our belief, as as where we stand as Christians, our practice of faith, non-denomination, non-denominational, where we teach Bible scripture, we don't believe in something like purgatory. We believe in something which is a another realm outside of time confined to what we know now. And the way that I've captured it, it's gonna be hard if you're listening to the podcast, but I'm gonna do my best to describe it is that time as we know it is this linear thing existing that everyone is kind of tracking along the same, confined by the same things. As soon as you die and you pass, you drop out of that and outside of this line, circuling the whole thing, living around the whole thing, is the Lord. He's outside of that time, and he takes us from where we were in time to the moment at the end of time together, no matter where we died in time.

SPEAKER_01 17:13

We all not not the end of time, the end of the time. Yeah, well, the resurrection, the judgment. The end of fallen humanity.

SPEAKER_05 17:19

Correct. Yeah, to that we all get outside of time with him, and then that moment, it's a new reality, and even though it is we're confined by time here, he's not. We all join into that new reality then. So, like you were saying, consciousness, your knowing from passing here, the next knowing you're speaking of is a judgment there, even though we're still confined by time, he's not. And so it's not necessarily a pause, it's just a reality we don't know. It's a life we can't understand because we're not there yet.

SPEAKER_03 17:47

Right.

SPEAKER_05 17:48

But other people who've passed that's in a way are kind of so what this does for believers now, and you uh if you want to bring more clarity, bring more clarity. But some believers when they dive into this start to think, well, then is is cremation wrong because now we're destroying the body God's given us. And and we don't have a context for that in scripture. There's more of an embal embalmment and a preservation perspective to bodies, they were more um reverent. So what do you think?

SPEAKER_01 18:21

Well, even ancient embalming procedures didn't preserve the body.

SPEAKER_05 18:25

They tried. Yeah. And it did better than some.

SPEAKER_01 18:29

So here here here's here's the deal. Uh where is Adam, first man, Atham. Adam, where is Adam's body?

SPEAKER_05 18:38

No idea.

SPEAKER_01 18:39

It's earth. It's gone back to dust. Where are the bodies of those who perished in the deep? The Bible talks about those who have died in the sea. Where is their body? It's it's no more. It's I mean, if they if they were weighted and they sunk to the depths, then at some point all of the molecules exploded from the pressure of the deep. So the point being everyone that has died will be resurrected. And so all the way back to the beginning of time, though those bodies aren't anymore. They're they're dirt now. And so that's the exact same thing that happens with with uh cremation. All of all expedites the process. It speeds it up, it turns it all into basically ash or dirt. And so the question comes in. I mean, there's been a belief system for a while that that's a terrible thing to do, to destroy the you know, the body that God designed, that's image creation, that that's a completely ridiculous thing to do. But the fact is, is it all turns back to dirt anyway, it all goes back to dust, whichever term you want to use. Um nothing can be preserved forever, even with the attempt to preserve it. And so then the question is, well, then how's God gonna resurrect the body? Well, it wasn't hard for him to create one to begin with.

SPEAKER_04 20:06

Right, yeah. From dirt.

SPEAKER_01 20:08

From dirt. Right. And and for him to breathe life, he he he breathed his life into first man's body. And so from then on, uh well, and and Eve, it happened with Eve as well, but from then on it happened at the moment of birth that the breath was taken. And the and and and life on earth happened. So my thought is it wasn't hard for God to make a body out of dirt and then uh and a body from a rib, which also included dirt. It just started with a rib uh for first woman. Um, it wasn't hard for him to do it that way. It's not gonna be hard for him to do it in his sovereignty. It it's just gonna happen. I mean, if we were gonna, you know, do sci-fi effects, there's gonna be uh people, you know, coming out of the dirt, uh out of the earth from all over and out of the sea, and and at that moment when that transition takes place, it's just gonna all kind of be gathered together and boom, there they are. On their way up to um wherever it is gonna be where the the two judgments will happen.

SPEAKER_05 21:18

So, how should we as believers approach death in perspective to the body now?

SPEAKER_01 21:26

What do you mean?

SPEAKER_05 21:27

Approach some believe that it should still be held with great reverence and there should be a place, and that visiting that place is important for the mourning and honoring and the the process of grieving that life that's no longer in our time with us anymore. Um, some believe that it's it's gone, it's over, the life is with the Lord now, so there's no point or process. Some believe that to cremate is a desecration, some believe that it's fine. What do you think is a healthy perspective for Christians now? Knowing that resurrection is gonna happen for all of us. What is a proper way to bring both both honor and not um in a sense uh get in a place where you're stuck and you're unable to move past the person that you've lost?

SPEAKER_01 22:15

Well, our perspective once again is bound by this time, this side of time and space. So we're on this side of eternity, on on the side on earth. Um, I don't think it's wrong to have a have a place where a body is laid. I don't think that's wrong. Jesus' body was laid in a tomb.

SPEAKER_04 22:34

Correct, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:35

But he didn't stay there. Uh Lazarus' body was laid in a tomb. He didn't stay there. I don't think that's wrong. Um, but I also don't think it's wrong if you don't choose to practice the laying of the body in a place. Like I I'll just go ahead and and and throw it out. I'm an organ donor.

SPEAKER_05 22:53

And so it's my next question is what are you gonna do with your body?

SPEAKER_01 22:56

Uh my my body, I'm an organ donor. It's on my driver's license, and I put everything uh my my eyes, my skin, anything that can be used to save the life of someone who needs help to continue to live, especially if they're an unbeliever. My hope and prayer is if they get my heart, uh the moment that they receive my heart in place of their defective heart, something happens with them. There's an awareness of God's life and power, and they'd be born again. Uh, someone that's blind that can't see, if they can use my my parts of my eye to restore sight to that person, and then they read the scriptures and they meet Jesus, praise the Lord, there's another one I helped escape eternal darkness.

SPEAKER_03 23:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:41

And so I'm an organ donor, and uh, and it's required by law that after, because uh there might not be much left, uh, I think it's required by law. You used to be. Let me let me pull that back. I'm not sure if it's law or not. Uh, but the general practice is then for the body to then go to cremation, which it's heated, and my body will be heated at a high temperature and everything will go back to dust or back to dirt, and then that will be placed somewhere.

SPEAKER_05 24:08

And you're you do you have any uh wishes for that? Do you want it to be spread, buried?

SPEAKER_01 24:13

No, it's um it's whatever the the uh uh science university chooses to do after organ.

SPEAKER_05 24:22

Oh, so we as a family like we won't have any access to what's left? This feels like a weird conversation to have, but it's worth as far as I know.

SPEAKER_01 24:31

Now it's been a long time since we filled it all that paperwork, but as far as I know, once the organs, the skin, everything that could be used to to provide life for someone, then the body is cremated and it's just I I think it's I think it's buried somewhere, but I'm not certain. I forgot.

SPEAKER_05 24:50

I'll have to look into that. That's this is an interesting conversation to have because now you're talking about stewarding your body even unto death, because if there's a chance for your body after you've passed to be utilized to bring life to someone else, that's a whole nother conversation of stewarding what God's given us, spirit, soul, and body, which is something I hadn't I personally hadn't thought about. But you're saying, you know, well kept, but if there's anything left in my body that can provide life, take it and allow it to be a a source of life for someone else.

SPEAKER_01 25:23

That's very powerful. My dad was uh was an organ donor and science donor, and he died at just short of 90, I think.

SPEAKER_04 25:32

Was he 88, I think?

SPEAKER_01 25:33

I was eighty-nine. Anyway.

SPEAKER_04 25:36

But we got to bury him.

SPEAKER_01 25:38

Well, that was that was because after organ donation and scientific research, if you remember, it took quite a while.

SPEAKER_03 25:44

Yes, it did.

SPEAKER_01 25:45

Then cremation for him as a veteran, there was an allowance made for him having been a Korean War veteran, uh, to be able to be put in a government supplied um uh uh little burial crypt, you know, the little drawer. Yeah. That his ashes that's that's basically what they wanted to do for the soldiers. And so that's where his remains are. Yeah. Um, but I'm not sure I I'm um I've lost track of it's been so long ago. Your mom and I did this right after we were married, so 40 some plus years ago.

SPEAKER_03 26:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:15

We determined we wanted to have our bodies do everything possible to save someone else's body. Yeah. And he he even died with multiple myeloma, which is kind of a kind of like a cancer, uh, even though it's I don't think it's in the cancer category. And lots of things, but they still chose to accept his his. I mean, you know, dad's body was pretty old. And he it the the disease took him way, way down. But he still wanted them to find out whatever they could that would help preserve life.

SPEAKER_05 26:43

Yeah. And it's not that just to add to to the viewers listening and watching, it's not that we don't have a reverence for life. I think we have a great reverence for life. To try to preserve it, try to preserve it, um, use our life to fight for others even after life, but even in the the perspective of honoring and keeping pieces of that life that we treasure with us for the remainder of our life, Papa left us all little trinkets. Um we have pocket knives, pocket knives, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:10

We got rings, yeah, little pendants.

SPEAKER_05 27:13

Our brothers have turned these pendants to rings. Yeah, yeah, there's definitely and and even in his memory, his legacy of us sharing and loving and and celebrating the way his life impacted ours. Um, to go visit his place where he was laid to rest is a little difficult because it's far away. But if we lived around, I could see us, you know, every time on the anniversary of his passing going and just again honoring the life. So I think there's great reverence because that's embedded, I think, in the core of every believer, every human being. Yeah. But especially when you're a believer and you realize the value of life that we're an image creation, there is there's a joy and a treasure of something sacred that we got to live with and celebrate with and do life with this person. Yeah. And we'll see them again one day. But for now, we're confined to time that doesn't allow us to see them.

SPEAKER_03 28:01

Right.

SPEAKER_05 28:02

So I think for some for some people listening to this conversation, there's a uh maybe uh edge to them that's like, oh, they should be more reverent, they should protect the body, they should do this. I think you can be reverent in both cases with protecting a body, burying a body, laying a body to rest. If that's reverent to your observation of them and their life, then and that's your conviction to honor them, then yes, be true to that. But if it's not and it's more of your perspective, then that is honoring for you and your body, and it's still reverent of your life because it's how you chose to live your life all the way even unto your death. And I think there's even like you re referenced Jesus, the way he chose to live his life and the way he allowed people to honor his body, although he knew he was going to be resurrected, right?

SPEAKER_01 28:48

There's a perspective there where he allowed you said many times after three days, I will rise again.

SPEAKER_05 28:52

Well, I mean, right in the sense of he wanted them to honor like that moment of laying his body to rest was an important part of his story. There's a reason we honored his body like that.

SPEAKER_01 29:05

Right. It was because um prophecies said on the third day he'll rise again. Correct. So I think there are three hundred and thirty-eight prophecies connected to the life of Christ. I think don't quote me on the number, but a lot of prophecies connected to the life of Christ, many connected to his death, burial, and resurrection. And I can't remember the number. I just I've taught it before, but I forgot the number. Many connected to that. And some people feel and and the reason being is Jesus was God in the flesh. Right. 100% man in a human body just like ours. Uh he sneezed. Hope he didn't have allergies, but he sneezed. He he his body processed food and fluid, etc. Uh, but at the same time, he's 100% God. And he but he was tempted in every way. His body, his body could have yielded to temptation. He was tempted in every way. Every single way we've been tempted, he was tempted. But he chose in the flesh to overcome and he died a sinless death death so that we wouldn't have to. So the purpose for his body, uh, his dead body being done to it, what was done, was to fulfill all scriptures leading up to the resurrection on the third day. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And that was it's never happened before.

SPEAKER_05 30:24

But in this instance, for us, we always look at Jesus' life and and often say we follow his example. And the way he lived, and the way he died, and the way he'll rise again, we follow his example. In this conversation about death and resurrection, you're saying we don't have to follow his example of even how he was buried to a T.

SPEAKER_01 30:45

Um, I I don't know that I would put it that way, but if you're making me choose, do we have to follow his example and be uh cremated and wrapped in in uh preserving cloths, etcetera, um, and laid in a tomb.

SPEAKER_05 31:01

You mean not cremated? Not cremated, I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_01 31:05

Yeah, sorry. Not cremated, wrapped in in in embalming. Of course they didn't have embalming fluid that they could run into the vascular system then, but they still tried to preserve the dip cloths and I forgot what the what the essence were. It's on the tip of my tongue, but um no, I'm not saying that it so we're talking about the resurrection of the dead. And there have been many people that have died that there isn't anything to preserve.

SPEAKER_05 31:32

Correct. So you're saying because of the circumstances, the fact that we're all turned to dust anyway, in this way, it's kind of your choice, your conviction to embalm, bury, preserve, or go ahead and r and step into the process of becoming dust, cremation, right, and anything in between, because that's what we're going to end up with anyway. Right. In his example of Jesus and his death, it doesn't necessarily have to be followed to a T for us to be observing properly how to bury our loved ones.

SPEAKER_01 32:01

Correct. You know, we don't know what happened to the bodies of the apostles who were martyred.

SPEAKER_05 32:06

Right. I was hoping you were gonna get there.

SPEAKER_01 32:08

We don't know.

SPEAKER_05 32:09

You follow Jesus his leadership, his example, and then were filled with the spirit. Yeah. I mean, I we know some most of them, a lot of them were stoned, we know some of them were burned, we know, beheaded.

SPEAKER_01 32:20

Well, John, just just John himself. They tried to kill him by throwing him in a pot of boiling oil. And once they thought he was dead and they got him out of the pot of boiling oil, he was still alive.

SPEAKER_05 32:31

Can you imagine that?

SPEAKER_01 32:32

And so they freaked out and they stoned him. And and I mean, they're just womping him with stones. I can't imagine the pain of having rocks strike your your scarred, charred, burnt body.

SPEAKER_05 32:43

Melted body, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:45

Um he still didn't die. So then they decided, well, this is this is the beloved one to Jesus, he's not gonna die. And so they ran him on a boat out to the Isle of Patmos, and he lived there until he was 104. That's what church tradition says. So think about living as a burn victim for that long.

SPEAKER_04 33:00

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 33:01

And so what happened to his body? We don't know.

SPEAKER_04 33:05

Right.

SPEAKER_01 33:05

I th I think we don't know. There could be a place that somebody has determined is where John was baptized, but that always makes me a little nervous. Some of the things that have been determined by church tradition actually makes me a lot nervous to say this is the place when there's no archaeological proof, when there's no historical record. So there are a lot of bodies out there, and we don't have instructions. We don't have definitive instructions like we do for uh life and eternal life. And salvation salvation, the way we think, the way we speak, the way we live, uh, the way we treat people, etc. We've got so much clarity on how we're to bring heaven to earth as Christ's followers on this dark side of eternity.

SPEAKER_04 33:48

Correct.

SPEAKER_01 33:49

Uh but we don't have it's it's just not clear. Yeah. And and we don't know where a lot of bodies are. Where's Moses' body? Mm-hmm. Um I don't know. Yeah. There was a fight over it. Yeah. But don't know where where it was put.

SPEAKER_05 34:04

Yeah. Well, I think this is very worthwhile and important conversation to have, and a great place for people to reference because at some point in every believer's life they have to wrestle with what do we do with the physical body when it passes, when this person leaves us and moves on. And again, there is there is a lot of separation in religions and different perspectives of Christianity divisions, even that this is a point of division, and it doesn't need to be. It wasn't for Jesus and his disciples, but it has somehow in the development of church over time become a division for us. Um, but I would love to, if you feel like we've wrapped up this thought on resurrection, to move on to Jesus.

SPEAKER_01 34:44

Well, let me let me put one more thought. Okay. So people say, but the a cremated body is not going to be recognizable in heaven. But yet the scriptures tell us you will be known as you are known. No marrying, no giving in marriage in heaven, so no sexual union, no sexual activity in heaven. So that part of the body that's not not going to be utilized. But the Bible's very clear that we will be known as we were, are, we will be known in heaven that way. That tells me that the bodies that were obliterated in the deep, um, the bodies that were destroyed in in in war, etc., um, uh, those that have disappeared, the bodies of the ancients, that tells me that it kind of doesn't matter if we preserve it and lay it in a place where there's a definitive grave. Um, tells me it doesn't quite matter because God's gonna put it all back together because we are gonna be known as we are known. And so that's nothing for him. My thought on that, as we've already as we've already covered, my thought there is okay, then I want to do whatever I can to help other people get to heaven. Yeah. So that that's why I do what I do. Or that's what that's why I believe what I believe.

SPEAKER_05 36:02

Yeah. That's beautiful. So now I feel like we need to jump into the conversation of celebrating the day of Christ's resurrection. Or as as we've known in our current church culture is Easter Sunday, Super Bowl Sunday.

SPEAKER_01 36:17

And as it would be, because it's a not Super Bowl Sunday, Super Bowl of Christianity.

SPEAKER_05 36:22

Well, correct. I I think Jeremy messed me up on that because he always Yeah, he does. He says it that way. Yeah. And I'm like, what are we saying again? It is a it is a general holiday that most people who are not church attending will come to church. In fact, I have some church attendance uh reference points for Easter. Um, up to 53% of Americans may attend an Easter service than any other day in in church history or in in the yearly calendar. There was a fall off during COVID of people who did not come back to church, and they had they had expected it to be a constant downturn, but the the church stabilized not because um people stopped like started coming back to church, but because the younger generation started coming to church, and it's been an unexpected turn that youth and young adults are now driving church attendance stability, they're keeping the church alive in a lot of sense. But the sad thing is is the boomer and up generation are the ones who have not recovered post-COVID and coming back to church. Um, I remember during COVID, that was the first time we had to not gather on Easter Sunday.

SPEAKER_01 37:32

Made me so mad. And it grieved your soul.

SPEAKER_05 37:35

Yeah, it grieved your soul. And so I love that we're having a chance to talk about Easter and kind of dispel some things that get swept up with Easter because at the end of the day, you know, and I know the enemy wants to cause division, confusion, and doubt anywhere that he can. And right now, there's a little conversation going on amongst believers of whether or not we should say resurrection day or Easter, because of Easter as its term and all the things that come with it, Easter bunny, eggs, egg hunts, was not quote unquote a Christian tradition. It was a pagan tradition. So us appropriating it, bringing it into Christian culture and shifting it ha is wrong, and that it's a false way to or irreverent way, even to celebrate the resurrection of our Lord. So can we dive into that conversation and and find where is the truth in what we should be doing, shouldn't be doing as believers? And before we get too deep in it, just even state anything that the enemy uses to keep us from gathering together to honor and observe the powerful testimony of our faith, which is that Christ resurrected from the grave, defeated death in the grave, that that is a bad thing. Whether whatever that is, whether that's family conflict, um, you know, disbelief on the importance of the Sunday, cultural things that we get sideways on, whatever it may be, um you know, schedules you mentioned, like people having sporting events, whatever it may be, pulling you away from observing resurrection day as a family is not is not a good thing. How would you vocalize that? What would you give? What would you say to these people that might face something or are you looking at their calendar now and they're like, well, I don't actually know if I can make it to a service on Easter Sunday. Doesn't make me a bad Christian. What would you say to that person?

SPEAKER_01 39:16

I would say that every Sunday is a celebration of the resurrection of Christ. Now let me back up just for a second and paint a bigger picture. The Jewish people, Hebrew-speaking Jewish people, uh uh worship God on the Sabbath. And it's one of the commandments. Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy.

SPEAKER_03 39:35

Correct.

SPEAKER_01 39:35

And that that time period began at sundown Friday night. Still for Jewish people, the Sabbath is sundown Friday night to sundown Saturday night. And that is a holy day. That's a day where they, you know, where they remember what God had done. They remember being delivered out of Egypt. Well, first of all, the Passover, which is is what Jesus uh he was he was crucified right in the Passover season, had celebrated the Passover meal with his disciples, etc. But then something happened with the behavior of people after Christ resurrected on the first day of the week, early Sunday morning. And then the way, as they were called, they weren't called Christians yet. That didn't happen until I believe it was at Antioch, uh, that they were first called Christians or Christ-like. Uh, but early on they were called the way because Jesus said, one of his last messages, he communicated, I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father except by me or through me. And so they were early on called the way. And so the way began to gather on Sunday morning to celebrate the resurrection of Christ every week. And so they gathered on the first day of the week. Uh they sang, they worshiped, they were devoted to, and you can read this in Acts chapter 2, the Apostles' Doctrine, Fellowship, Breaking of Bread, and Prayer.

SPEAKER_05 40:55

The big four.

SPEAKER_01 40:56

Yep. So uh they were devoted to celebrating the resurrection of Christ, studying the scriptures, um, meeting, fellowship, meeting again in small groups, communion, breaking bread, prayer, and praise. A lot of their prayers were done in singing, like what we do. Every time you sing to the Lord, you're praying. And um, and so they committed themselves to that on the first day of the week. And so then in history, the the concept came up. What about a special day, even more special than every first day? And I think that began to develop in the fourth century. Uh trying to remember my history. Um and tied in with it were some pagan practices.

SPEAKER_05 41:39

I think those came a little later, like the seventh century.

SPEAKER_01 41:43

They began began to creep in later. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 41:46

Yeah, I think it's the seventh, but the fourth century is what I have as the note when they started to bring in the reverence and observation of one day to celebrate the resurrection of Christ around a specific time. Can you speak to why we decided, even on the calendar year, what when we celebrate Easter?

SPEAKER_01 42:07

There was a reason for that. Let me think here. If I remember right, it has to do with the spring equinox. Uh, it will always fall. So let's see, this was the Nicene Council, and they decided it'd be the first Sunday after the first full moon following the spring equinox. So they picked a specific time that would forever be able to be marked, and so that means it falls somewhere between March 22nd and April 25th.

SPEAKER_05 42:34

And is that actually when Christ was crucified and resurrected?

SPEAKER_01 42:39

We don't know.

SPEAKER_05 42:40

So it's like it's like Christmas in the same way.

SPEAKER_01 42:42

Right.

SPEAKER_05 42:43

You we're picking a day.

SPEAKER_01 42:44

Right. So we don't know for sure. That shouldn't diminish it though. Yeah. There should be a day bigger than every other day so that it doesn't become common. Because think about what's going on in Christianity and Western culture now. Um the first day of the week is no longer a sacred time for Christ's followers to celebrate the resurrection. It's become like just any other day of the week. I remember distinctly remember recognizing a change because it used to be across the southern part of the United States, quote unquote, the Bible belt, that you didn't even do things on Wednesday night because Wednesday night churches had programs for kids and youth. Yeah. And that was the focus. Even a lot of schools wouldn't give homework on Wednesday so that the kids and the youth could go to what the churches in the in the community had planned for that Wednesday night to create a midweek experience, a midweek time where the saints could gather together.

SPEAKER_05 43:42

Yeah, I think we covered this on our Sabbath episode.

SPEAKER_01 43:44

Okay. I remember when that began to be degenerated by practices coming in. Well now, and and I don't know if it's happening yet. It wouldn't at all surprise me if it is. But now, not only is Wednesday not sacred, which it didn't need to be. To be. I did I didn't hold that as anything special. But Sunday is no longer sacred. I mean, when I'm on my way to to church and drive past the soccer fields, there are maybe a thousand cars at the soccer fields.

SPEAKER_05 44:14

Yeah, so there's a lot of kids in soccer.

SPEAKER_01 44:16

It's crazy. For sure. And and baseball. And so there isn't it's the degeneration of cultural values based upon a Judeo-Christian worldview, which is based upon the Holy Scriptures. And you think it's breaking down, tells us we're we're coming closer and closer to the end of the age.

SPEAKER_05 44:33

And you think that back in the fourth century, even then, that far removed from Christ's resurrection from the dead, the whole shift that shook the world and the practice of practicing of the way, gathering together in the fourth century, they recognized, oh, there we we're still gathering, but we're forgetting the most prominent reason as to why. So let's just have one day where we remember the one reason why we gather. Every other time we gather, there's all the a lot of other things we talk about, like encouraging each other, working through difficulty, trials, all those things. But for one time that we gather on our first day, it needs to just be about the one day that everything changed. So they recognized that then.

SPEAKER_01 45:14

They did. So in your perspective, and then developed it and worked on it for the next ten centuries from fifth century to fifteenth century.

SPEAKER_05 45:21

Yeah. So from your perspective, even though this is a tradition of quote unquote man, it was a good and right and holy tradition to bring into the church to protect the church. Even though it's not like a sacred text tradition, so to speak.

SPEAKER_01 45:35

I think it was I think it was good efforts to try and get focused back into a good place.

SPEAKER_05 45:40

So for those who are like more um traditionalists or think, well, if it's not sacred scripture, then we don't need to be held by it or bound by it, what would you say to that person?

SPEAKER_01 45:49

Well, then every man's way becomes right in his own eyes. Everybody does whatever they want to do, pick out something that you major on, which is how so many different denominations have formed, uh, how so many little pockets, how cults are formed. Um, you know, the the cult that was was so significant here in Texas uh a few years back, it's been longer than that, maybe 30 years ago or something. Whole thing was on end times prophecy. Yep. And the founder of that cult dec declared himself as the prophet of the end times. So he had all those folks thinking and doing some crazy things, yeah. Believing that death was better than life. Yeah, and so that that corruption, the slide away from God, the pull toward darkness is is always gonna be there, but it seems to be getting stronger.

SPEAKER_05 46:41

Is there a scripture reference we have that helps us as believers um recognize what traditions to hold to, to stay in a place of reverence with the Lord? Because it's I would think it would be possible that new traditions arise, much like how Easter, which we'll get more into that in a second, but the tradition of celebrating one day as resurrection day and it becoming Easter. Um where do we see in scripture holding two traditions to observe faith as an important element of our practice in faith?

SPEAKER_01 47:14

Well, they had, you know, the the um uh the Jewish leaders formed uh not just a few, they had six hundred and thirteen um good things that became laws that were just connected to the Sabbath. So either extreme is wrong. Uh Jesus came and and came against, when he came, one of the main things he did was came he came against the legalism that the Pharisees had established by husking grain in his hand and eating on the Sabbath, by healing on the Sabbath.

SPEAKER_04 47:49

Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:50

By saying, if your donkey falls into the into a well, uh aren't you gonna get him out? You know, he just he just obliterated all the things that had been formed in the name of God and in the in the pursuit of godliness. That's one extreme that's not good. The other extreme is complete ignoring everything. Just, you know, it's just me and God.

SPEAKER_05 48:09

And no reverence.

SPEAKER_01 48:10

No reverence, no, nothing special, nothing set apart. I mean, we're to be set apart. We're we're to have elements of our life that make us to be holy. But so the flip side shouldn't should be do we not or uh do we do we embrace some of the corruption in Easter or in Christmas, we don't know that that's the day for either one, and all this the fertility stuff that came in with Easter over the course of time, uh that makes it wrong. Well, not doing anything is wrong as well. But here's one that concerns me. Do you know what a creaster is?

SPEAKER_05 48:48

A person who comes to church on Christmas and Easter only.

SPEAKER_01 48:51

Christmas and Easter only. Thinking I'll celebrate the birth of Christ, I'll celebrate the death of Christ, but I don't need to be a part of day by day, week by week life in Christ. And the scriptures are clear, you're not to forsake the assembling together with other believers. The writer of Hebrews made that clear. We're to enjoy and look forward to gathering with other believers every week to celebrate the resurrection of Christ. But there's one that we need to make really, really big because I don't mean this to hurt anybody's feelings, but carnal people out there that are going to live their life the way they want to, but they will celebrate the big two, Easter and Christmas. Let's at least try to get them for those and try to help the creasers see the importance of living and ongoing day by day, um, for sure, week by week, uh, practice of the way in the life of Christ.

SPEAKER_05 49:51

Yeah. I like that you brought that up because one of the commentaries I was reading about the history of Easter and where the word Easter came from and the eggs and all the beliefs of tradition of that being linked to paganism and goddess of fertility and all those things. Um, one of them, and there's a very few that claim that this is fact, most of them say it's it's guessing, and there's nothing, nothing to say for sure that it happened this way, and there's more arguments made to say that it probably didn't happen this way. However, this one article uh was saying it was he was a theologian from way back when, during all this time, he was saying even if it is a pagan holiday, but it pulls in people who are lost, and we can help reach them as a church, what's the harm in that? To to have some eggs and to repurpose what they're using for pagan tradition for Christian tradition. Some people hear that and they're like, Well, if you bring pagan practice into Christianity, then you're irreverent by association.

SPEAKER_01 50:53

Well, but but we're not gathering to celebrate pagan pagan practices, we're gathering to recognize the power of God.

SPEAKER_05 51:00

But I would also say, too, like, how is that wrong for Christians to take things of the world and redeem them for Christ?

SPEAKER_01 51:09

No, the Apostle Paul made it clear. I do all things unto Christ, and he said, Um, I do what I whatever I can do to win people to Christ. He made it clear.

SPEAKER_05 51:20

Same kind of conversation, like Halloween. It's in the same realm of like, why would you do that, demons and celebrating the dead, and it's like, well, there is that perspective, the witchcraft and all that, and the darkness, the demonic things. But there's also a whole other perspective of if you want to just do, you know, plain American culture is dressing up, getting candy, connected to the community. But also, too, in Jewish tradition, they celebrate something a lot like Halloween, but it's to honor Esther and the way she disguised herself to go before the king and eventually revealed her true identity to then save God's people. And people dress up during that time. They like they joke about it as the Jewish Halloween, but it's not Halloween, it's their season of of dressing up and putting on disguises and they have fun with it, but it's the same kind of idea. So I think it's interesting that a lot of Christians get really upset about it. I understand though why they get upset about it, but right now as a church, is it wrong for us to have an egg hunt? And if if your answer is no, why?

SPEAKER_01 52:23

Um, I don't think it's wrong to have an egg hunt. I think we should be absolutely clear though that that rabbits don't lay eggs.

SPEAKER_04 52:29

Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:30

They're mammals.

SPEAKER_04 52:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:32

Um, so we need some chickens running around while the rabbits are running around. Something, I don't know. No, I don't I don't think it's wrong because I'm all things to all men, then I might win some. Uh we we have redeemed Halloween. Now, I I think some of the best observations of n uh all Hallows Eve, or what started out as being a actually Halloween started as being a recognition and honoring of saints that had gone b gone on into death. But let's don't get into the history of Halloween. We have redeemed it and made it an evangelistic outreach. It's a huge, huge opportunity for churches to make a difference in their community. See, so even think think about that. I am not honoring at Halloween, I'm not honoring wicked spirits.

SPEAKER_04 53:24

Right.

SPEAKER_01 53:25

I've got nothing to do with that. I don't like terror, I don't like being startled. I've got startled reflex. I pray to God that there's not some guy hiding on the side of the sidewalk, looks like he's a plant, and he jumps up to startle me. I have I have a moment where things go black, and I pray I don't beat him to smithereens for startling me. But uh, why did I give up on that?

SPEAKER_05 53:49

Don't sneak up on Pastor Jeff if you want. That wasn't your whole life, though. That's a newer thing, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 53:54

No, it's always been. It's just it got worse. It's gotten worse um over time. But I think we are to redeem the the times, redeem the days for they are evil. We don't run and hide from the evil of the days, we stay in the the midst of the evil of the days and shine the light.

SPEAKER_05 54:12

Yeah. And there was one early uh account of the Easter being brought into the resurrection day celebration around the seventh to eighth century. Um, and they they were saying that eggs began to represent new life and that the springtime was about his life springing forth, like the life of our Lord springing forth, that there was purpose in it all, but it was centered around celebrating the power and authority of our life coming from Christ. New life in Christ, uh, abundance of life in Christ, the the turn of season, literally saying goodbye to the cold and the death and the darkness of winter, to the light and the life and the new spring of springtime leading into summer, that that was all intentional about why they picked this time to observe the resurrection of our Lord. Um even the term Easter, do you think it's wrong for us to still say happy Easter? Has it taken a whole nother meeting where it's still reverent of the Lord's resurrection? Or is that still irresolute?

SPEAKER_01 55:20

Well, I'll I'll say Happy Resurrection Day, I'll say Happy Easter. In our culture, I don't think it's worth the uh trying to take a stand in order to try to create a wrong and right. You gotta understand cancel culture has always been around, but it is on steroids right now. And and the thing the things that we're canceling, just because why don't we why don't we take advantage of it and redeem it? That that's my thought. Make it so that it's good. Um I don't know if you remember, but when we started this church, I led uh I took a position of leadership with churches in the community that we have a fall festival because there were objections in calling it Halloween. So I'm like, okay, will you participate if we call it a fall festival? And we do it on that same night um to try to pull away from the you know the scary stuff that will be in some of the neighborhoods. Okay, great, let's do that. And so it almost looked like Thanksgiving because the churches didn't have any, you know, haunted skeletons or anything like that out. Yeah. Um but it was nevertheless, nevertheless, it was on October 31st that we were having our fall festival to try to draw the whole city together to have some fun, and the churches foot the bill for it and paid for it. And um It got massive.

SPEAKER_05 56:40

It took over a whole all of Bembrook Park.

SPEAKER_01 56:43

It took it became thousands and thousands that were there. Couldn't park them. We don't do it anymore. Couldn't park them all. No, it was unfortunate. The the positioning of um of games, the positioning of um, you know, the the stuff that the kids could see and do became stuff that the pastor started fighting over. They didn't want to be at the end of the alley, they wanted to be at the beginning of the alley. Fact is, is people were parking everywhere, coming in from all angles. There wasn't a beginning or the end, but people started fussing with other people about where they were gonna position their church display.

SPEAKER_05 57:20

And it just got to be, oh man, this is I don't I think it was the last year that it happened, we were like, well, y'all can do it again, but we're not gonna direct it, manage it. Right. And then no one wanted to because of all the tension that we were helping mediate the whole time. But but it was a fun thing, and in the same way, Easter, we do a big egg hunt. We're gonna have one at both locations. Um, the hill at High Ridge Fort Worth, and then we have this like uh little tucked away lawn piece between us and the water park at Parker County that we're gonna have our w our egg hunt, everything out there. And that has become still one of our greatest community outreaches. People will come to the egg hunt that have no intention of coming to church, but they're already at the church, they build relationships, and a lot of them come back, which I think is a beautiful way for us to be evangelistic around this time to pull people in.

SPEAKER_01 58:10

Yeah, we're not celebrating the fertility goddess, we're not celebrating the we're not even communicating this is uh you know related to astrology this day. We're not even going back to the equinoxes and trying to explain that. Um we are we are celebrating the resurrection of Christ and we're making it fun. We're redeeming something in culture, making it fun so kids and families will come. Um just just like I don't focus on Santa at Christmas, I don't focus on the Easter bunny at Easter. At Christmas, I focus on the birth of Christ. At Easter, I focus on the resurrection of Christ. And so a random day was picked for Christmas, and then you know, a saint who I believe the story is true. I believe that they've found that's true that a guy gave gifts to poor kids that weren't gonna get gifts.

SPEAKER_05 59:03

Yeah, there's way more history on Christmas than there is Easter.

SPEAKER_01 59:05

But anyway, so if you start canceling, you eventually end up canceling everybody and everything.

SPEAKER_05 59:12

Yeah. And even just now, I did all this research about the history of Easter, but even just now Googling what is the definition of Easter, if you just Google that, it says the most important and oldest festival of the Christian church celebrating the resurrection of Jesus Christ, held in the Western Church between March 21st and April 25th on the first Sunday after the full moon following the Northern Spring Equinox. And then it goes into this whole period of which Easter started becoming a term, and it kind of you know walks us all the way through then. So basically, even if Easter had a previous definition, the definition of Easter now is to capture what we celebrate as resurrection day. It's been redefined, and how cool is that that even if, which we don't know for sure that it is true, all the stuff about the pagan goddess and all that, even if that were true, the continual um cultural observation of the Christian church has changed what that word means to people now. Like we have we forget, I think, the authority we have as believers, as Christ um image bearers in this world. We actually have authority to redeem and redefine things that Christ now has authority, even if, which I don't think she did, the pagan goddess had authority over that term before. So I just want to bring that kind of clarity. Then I want to just talk a little bit about the tradition of Easter and the and the um reverence of the church. We have our 40 days of Lent leading up, we have Good Friday, we have Monday Thursday.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:35

You have Monday Thursday, then Good Friday.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:37

Correct. I guess I was kind of working backwards or the wrong direction. Um, can you speak to a little bit of that? What we observe, what we hold on to, what we should still observe. Maybe we've lost sight of any of those old traditions that we've not necessarily held fast to in our church expression?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:53

Mm-hmm. Well, um uh Lent has a a focus of denying yourself of suffering, if you will, because that's what happened with Christ on uh on that Friday, on Thursday night when he was arrested, tortured all night long, um, taken and crucified at noon, and then at three he um committed his spirit to to the father. Um I'm not against church traditions so long as they stay in line with scripture. Sometimes they don't. Uh what I do, um I fast. Um I invited last night at elders' meeting, I invited the elders to join me. I fast prior to Easter for a couple of reasons. One, I want my I want to I want to have humility that comes with a fast. You become weak. You for a water-only fast, which is the only definition of a fast in the Bible. We've added other things recently just to try to make it easier for for people to enter in. I'm I'm okay with that. But I I I fast to recognize what Jesus did, to humble myself before him, to give thanks for him and and what he did. And I'm I do that prior to the celebration of Easter, to the Easter services. And I do that to get myself ready, I do it to to step into holiness, I do it to deny my flesh. So I guess in a way I kind of practice it as well. But when things become, I don't mean this in the wrong way, but quite often a good idea becomes a great idea, and then it becomes a a thing, and it takes on all kinds of stuff, and you gotta do all of them to be approved. And if you miss this or your attitude's not right with this, then you're you know, you're you're diminishing God, etc. I I don't I don't mind things that come along that help us, but when when that becomes the focus, being certain that you you know pour ashes on your head, or being certain that you wear sackcloth, um, which happened in biblical times. When that becomes the focus, oh look at how humble I am. Something's missing. It's not it's not the way it is. And so all of the church church tradition connected with it, I'm not against it because it leads many people to gain an appreciation and leads them back to a focus on Jesus. But in and of itself, it's just a religious practice. Because if your focus is on your own brokenness and not the brokenness of the Lord, then you're missing the point.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:35

So, what of the church traditions do you think we don't need to hold? You said some align with text in scripture, it's great, keep them, some don't.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:45

Well, Lent, if I remember right, Lent came about. It's been a while since I was in seminary, I remember. Came about I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:51

Sometimes your memory recall makes me feel like it was yesterday.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:53

Well, some some things, yeah. Thank you, thank you for that. You're welcome. May God bless your father and your mother in Jesus' name, amen. Um, I forgot what this is saying.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:04

Lent, if you remember right.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:05

Oh, yeah, that came in because people had become so pagan, so lost, so degenerate, that that was an F effort by church leaders to get them back uh into a time of denial of all the indulgences that were taking them into sinful behavior and sinful practice to try to get them into a place of humility and closeness to God. And in in many lives it worked, still works. It gets people out of their sinful practices, their indulging of their flesh, and gets them back to the scripture and back to the presence of the Lord.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:40

So is that because Scripture lays out a practice of fasting in life anyway, even though it doesn't specifically use the term Lent for Easter, it does speak to the prominence and the importance of fasting, humbling yourself and relying on the Lord. So they just took a biblical idea and applied it to a calendar moment in our culture to set people up for uh reverent observation of the resurrection of the Lord.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:05

Good. Yes.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:06

So in that way you're saying it is biblical and it is purposeful and it has power because it's rooted in truth.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:12

Well, bib I wouldn't say biblical. Uh we don't have Lent. I don't think we have Lent. The lat it's a Latin word, I think. I don't think we have that in the scripture setting up a time period prior to Easter.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:25

Right, correct.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:26

Um the Jewish people celebrated Passover. Jesus took Passover with his disciples on that Thursday night. Thursday dinner. He he took the Passover meal in the upper room, then went out and was was captured and and then tortured and and crucified the next day.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:43

So not biblical, but purposeful with its biblical root.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:48

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:49

Then what about like Ash Wednesday?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:53

What about it?

SPEAKER_05 1:05:54

Where does that fall? Is it in the same category of Lent, the four days leading up? Purposeful Rooted in scripture with its idea, but just a tradition applied to the I'm sure the intention was good when it came out.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:07

I'm sure somebody had the idea this is gonna help people draw close to God. And once again, t church tradition usually comes out of a good motive, doesn't come out of an evil motive, can serve a purpose, but quite often the actual observance of the tradition becomes the religion. Or that element is what the relationship is built upon. And I don't I don't I am religious, but I'm much more relational. I love having the relationship that I have with my Lord and Savior, not trying to do a bunch of things to make him happy with me. So generally speaking, I don't like religion, but I love relationship.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:51

So Ash Wednesday, nothing wrong with it. If it helps somebody and their heart's right, yes, do it. Right. It's part of your tradition, the way you honor your culture and how you observe Christ, great. As long as it's not a substitute for your relationship, is kind of where you're sitting.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:06

Yes, I'm not gonna cancel it. Yeah. You remember when we were in Israel?

SPEAKER_05 1:07:09

You're not really a very canceling kind of person.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:11

You remember when we were in Israel? Yes. And and the people getting close to sundown on Friday night started pouring from all over the city down to the western wall. Do you remember the life and the vitality in that moment when they're celebrating, uh, you know, celebrating God and calling forth from the Messiah to come, which they're they're missing on that one. But just how vital and active and alive that time was. So my thought was I'm gonna go celebrate Jesus Christ, my Lord and Savior, with them. I'm gonna go think that Yeshua is Hamasiah, he is my Messiah. And so we got right down there in it, and I don't feel like I violated the Lord. My heart was good. I went and got a little piece of paper, wrote a prayer on it, and stuck it in a crack in the wall. Um I'll pray everywhere. So my thought was I'm not there to observe the Jewish, uh, the beginning of the Jewish Sabbath. But if they're gonna sing and celebrate and and and bless God, I'm gonna jump in with them. And so when the circle opened up, I got in there and and had a blast. And so that's my mindset. And yeah, uh, you know, somebody'd say, Oh, you you're part Jew now. You you observe the Sabbath at the at the whaling wall. I'm a Jew inwardly. I'm I'm Jewish in my heart, in that I serve, I serve a risen, um, a risen Savior who was born into a Jewish family, born into a Jewish culture. And I wasn't celebrating, I wasn't calling out for the Messiah to come that night. I was celebrating the death, burial, and resurrection and the ongoing life I have with the Creator of the heavens, the earth, Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:00

Yeah. My last question for us about Easter and your perspective as a pastor has to do with Good Friday and our time spent between Good Friday and Sunday. Should we as believers we don't have a service as a church? Um, people think you should because it's uh almost more important to have a service that day and setting up for Sunday. We don't have a service that day, but what do you think is the best way for Christians practicing church, much like what we do, to spend their Friday? How should they spend it? What should it look like in preparation for Easter Sunday?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:37

Uh read a lot of the Bible, um, stay away from media, um, turn your screens off, read, pray, consider fasting. Um just for that day? Yep. And get ready for the celebration. Now, many churches like us in the in the collection of churches that we would be identified with, Bible believing, um, evangelical. In other words, we try to evangelize people to Christ, um, love the scripture, inerted, infallible, perfect, restores our soul, establishes the steps of our life, love the scripture, love praise, love the presence of God, whatever we are, interdenam, non-denam, uh third wave, the all whatever kind of thing we are. There's so many people that come to our services that some of my friends, they're starting their Easter services on Wednesday night. One Wednesday night, one Thursday night, one Friday night, three or four on Saturday, three or four on Sunday.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:37

I know, yeah. I have some friends like that.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:39

Because that's what's necessary to accommodate all the people that are gonna that are gonna come celebrate the the resurrection of Christ.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:47

Yeah. Which is powerful if there's that many people coming.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:52

So they're not trying they're not doing that to try to cancel out, you know, uh Ash Wednesday, Monday, Thursday, Good Friday, uh quiet Saturday, silent Saturday. They're not doing that to cancel all that out. They're doing that to accommodate all the people coming on the days earlier because they have um schedule conflicts or family conflicts, but they want to celebrate the resurrection of Christ, Easter, if you will, uh, on one of those days because they can't on Saturday. So anyway.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:20

So your hope is that they just won't move through Friday distracted, which is what the enemy would want, and irreverent about what that day represents for us leading up to Sunday, so that when they get to Sunday, that it would be standing apart, different, sacred, holy.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:37

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:38

Because it is the one Sunday of the whole year that we celebrate only and focus only on the power and authority of Christ's sacrifice and his resurrection, of him laying his life down and then claiming our life back.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:52

Yes. Um When is this podcast gonna go out?

SPEAKER_05 1:11:55

Before Easter.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:56

Okay, so let me just say this there are lots of questions about the proof of the resurrection. In my mind, there is no question. The facts are undeniable. So, what we're gonna do this year at both campuses for all six services, we are going to give an apology. We're going to uh we are going to give a defense of the resurrection of Christ from circumstantial and factual evidence. It's it's gonna be awesome.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:26

So it's an apologetic kind of yes. Uh sun Easter Sunday, Sunday service.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:32

Yes. And and part of the reason for this is because the generation younger than you.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:37

Yes. The up and coming.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:39

Up and coming generation, the the church leaders of of a day soon to come, they want to know, they want to know why.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:47

They want to know where the truth lies.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:48

They want to know where the truth is.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:50

And there are so many circumstantial factors that prove the resurrection of Christ. Right. And I'm excited. We're gonna do it, we're gonna do it at both, and it's gonna be powerful.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:02

I'm so pumped about that.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:04

Gonna have the scriptures and then gonna have explanation, gonna have insight. So be there because some of the things we're gonna share, and I'm I'm I'm not trying to take advantage of this podcast moment to recruit people to higher church. Go to church somewhere and celebrate the resurrection of Christ. Yeah. What we're gonna do is give you proof and evidence that if you don't believe yet, we'll give you something to think about. Hopefully, you will believe and follow Christ. That's our our desire.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:30

And if you are a Christ follower, we'll give you um some questions to ask, some things to get people to think about, some statements to make uh as a Christ follower beyond just saying, well, it says right here, and on the first day, He they went to the tomb and the tomb was empty. We're gonna give you stuff beyond that.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:50

Yeah. Irrefutable things.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:52

Irrefutable evidence and circumstantial evidence that if you think about it, you using using the the practice of evidence, what evidence says, using those practices and principles, it's obvious. And any anytime world-renowned atheists, not any time, uh, sometimes when world-renowned atheists or not believers in God examine the evidence, they end up converting to Christ.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:23

Yes, tons of books to support that too. I'm excited. Thank you so much for diving into two very important topics the resurrection of all believers, of all bodies, of everyone, and how we are to honor and celebrate the resurrection of our Lord. Two big topics, two very important topics that I think will bring lots of strength to people. Not only how they practice in their faith and their spirit, but also how they steward their actual body, because there is a purpose to this body that God's given us. We have a life to live, an assignment on this body, and there's a way to enter into rest that you people need to follow their conviction and honor the lives that we've been given and honor the lives that have passed. So thank you, PJ, for bringing this clarity for doing research, and I'm excited to see what happens Easter Sunday.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:11

Thank you, TC, for doing such a BC.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:16

I was like, What's TC? That's a new nickname. T C I was like, hmm, terrific Charniki. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:24

Terrific Charniki. There you go.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:26

Of course. Honored.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:27

Brianna Charnecki, thank you for all you do to make this happen. You're awesome.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:32

Thanks. And Sam, shout out to Sam and the cameras.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:35

On the other side over there. Everybody say, Hi, Sam.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:39

Okay, that's all we have for this episode. Thank you so much for listening. We'll talk to you soon. Peace out.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:43

Peace out.