SPEAKER_05 0:00

Disciples of Jesus look to the future. Listen to me, vision without action is merely a dream. Action without vision is a waste of time, and vision with action can change the whole world. He will speak to you. The question is, are you listening?

SPEAKER_04 0:20

Need to pray for your family or teaching them incorrectly.

SPEAKER_00 0:24

All right, welcome to the Real Strength Podcast. Hey everybody. We have a very unique conversation that we're having today. As you can tell, it's a crowd in this room. But we really have a very intense discussion that we need to settle. First and foremost, we have to define what is greatness. You know, for us to pursue real strength in our life, in the wholeness of who we are, spirit, soul, and body, we want to do that with uh leadership, we want to do it with greatness in our hearts. So, gentlemen, I'm gonna give you about one minute each to each define greatness in your own terms.

SPEAKER_06 0:56

I'll start. Greatness is not having to tell everybody else you're the greatest.

SPEAKER_04 1:01

Okay. Come on, say that again.

SPEAKER_06 1:02

When somebody has to tell other people they're the greatest, they're not the greatest. That's right. Now, now that I've got the first shot in, greatness for Christ's follower is living your life in honor to him and giving your all for him as he gave his all for you.

SPEAKER_00 1:17

So good. Okay, who's ready for the next definition?

SPEAKER_06 1:22

Greatness.

SPEAKER_01 1:23

One of us? All right, I'll go. Uh greatness, quick definition. Uh, I think things that go into greatness uh is that you're humble. I agree. Uh greatness being uh having humility, uh having lasting impact, uh leaving a legacy, uh differences that you've made not only in your life, but in the lives of the people around you. Have you elevated other people? Um sacrificial, I think, is is a big part of your greatness or something, someone being great if they're uh sacrificial mindset. So those are just, I guess, my some things that define greatness.

SPEAKER_06 2:00

Did you help him with his answer?

SPEAKER_00 2:02

I use every part of my life to empower his, but I gave no specifics.

SPEAKER_06 2:09

For those of you that are listening and not watching, so the what are you of the real strength podcast? You're the brains, the host, moderator. Yeah, and then you you've heard me before. I'm the I'm the one that gets asked the questions. And then to my left, those that are listening on my team, the winning team.

SPEAKER_00 2:26

I was gonna set us up with these intros in a second. But yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_06 2:30

Well, let's keep going.

SPEAKER_01 2:31

We've got two more people to find.

SPEAKER_00 2:32

We have two more the definitions to bring to the table.

SPEAKER_04 2:35

Uh yeah, I think greatness is way more than talent. I think it's uh it's kind of a a combo of like ability, consistency, uh, excellence, um, and being able to respond under pressure. Uh I think one of the, yeah, I I agree that uh legacy is part of it. Um and one of the questions you have to ask when you're talking about greatness is do you elevate the people around you? Uh does it make them better? Like what kind of mark did you leave when you left? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:07

Legacy, yeah, it's good. Sam, our last one.

SPEAKER_02 3:10

Yeah, um, it's a great question, Brie. You're awesome. Is she the one deciding who is? We haven't gotten to that yet, y'all. We haven't gone to that yet. Oh, no, I'm just kidding. Um, I think the easy answer is Jesus to everything like this. But here's the here's the deal: Jesus is perfection. I think that's the level above greatness. So one tier below Jesus is greatness. And the spiritual answer, I think, of the hall of faith in scripture. So we're talking about people who lived their lives. They went through adversity, they went through things, but they overcame adversity and they lived their life in a way that leaves a legacy of greatness behind them. The way they're remembered long after they're gone is what defines greatness in someone's life, I would say.

SPEAKER_00 3:55

That is very interesting. Okay, great definition. Thank you for bringing such a clear definition of what greatness is. And and listeners, welcome to the discussion, the debate, defining greatness. But more specifically, this conversation will be defining who is the greatest player of all time. Michael Jordan, LeBron James. To my left, we have the Michael Jordan team, Pastor Jeff.

SPEAKER_04 4:19

The best team, the number one team, Pastor Justin.

SPEAKER_00 4:22

And to my right, we have the LeBron James team, Sam Gamere, and Brandon Charnecki. And so what we're gonna do is we're gonna have a good old-fashioned debate, discussion, and we're gonna really get into the nitty-gritty, and between friends, amongst family of the body of Christ, we're gonna experience a few things: healthy conflict, deep discussion, defining greatness, learning new perspectives, melding of generations of greatness in a beautiful sport that is basketball, which I do love basketball. But here, here are the rules. Okay. So we're gonna have some opening statements between the two teams. You're gonna have two minutes to give your opening statement on why you both are standing for Michael Jordan. You'll have two minutes for your team to define why you stand with LeBron James, and then we're gonna go through a series of questions, and each one will get to answer and rebuttal to each question, and then we'll have some closing statements towards the end. Do you have any questions?

SPEAKER_06 5:22

Well, I want to also add for those of you that are regulars to the Real Strength Podcast, this is also to show you how to enjoy life, how to have fun, how to disagree without being disagreeable. All these are things that will benefit you and your soul. Uh, how to um interact, um, how to overcome adversity, and as the LeBron team will experience today, how to lose gracefully.

SPEAKER_04 5:45

Oh, he has a lot of experience in losing as well. So you guys can learn from him.

SPEAKER_01 5:53

I mean, I want to jump to a loser.

SPEAKER_02 5:56

And Brandon's gonna experience honoring your father and mother, father-in-law, mother-in-law.

SPEAKER_06 6:01

Um, we have this going all the time.

SPEAKER_00 6:03

This has been going on for what people don't know behind the scenes. This debate has been going on for months, and when we decided to bring this into the podcast, it's like every single little side conversation with any man in this room or any man who heard about this conversation, I'm getting all the debates and all the reasons why someone else is gonna win. I'm like, y'all know, I'm not actually debating this. I'm just gonna be moderating the conversation. But, you know, I'm for I'm for clarity and I'm for the joy of the debate. I like a good I like a good debate, a good discussion. I like a little conflict. It's good for the body of Christ, right?

SPEAKER_02 6:37

I think it's worth being said we all love each other. Yes, we're all in relationship together. If it gets heated today, it comes from fun play about a sport that does not matter as much as the things of God. That's right. Right.

SPEAKER_06 6:48

Yeah, what we're talking about today is not eternally significant. It's just a fun thing in this realm in which we live.

SPEAKER_00 6:54

But arguably the concepts could be, you know. You just how to have good discussion, good conflict. Oh, there we go. Yeah. Yeah. So let's get into it, shall we? Good. Who would like to lead opening statements? And I will be timing you. Great. You have two minutes.

SPEAKER_02 7:08

I think we could refer to our elders here.

unknown 7:10

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 7:11

We could let the older generation lead the way.

SPEAKER_00 7:15

Opening statements for Michael Jordan in the greatest of all time.

SPEAKER_04 7:18

Wow. Um, I think you look at the collective body of work uh for MJ, that he is not um that he was a uh well-rounded player. Like I'll break down some some stats and numbers uh later in the podcast, but um it's not just about uh being the all-time leading scorer or anything like that, but it is that he was a well-rounded uh uh and he he won multiple um uh well he won Defensive Player of the Year, uh respected defensively, um, but he the legacy that he left and the impact that he made on uh uh basketball all around the globe. I mean, LeBron's able to do the things that he does because of MJ. All these other players are able to do the things that they do because of him. And I think that um uh I think that uh probably the greatest um summation of this is a quote by Walter Payton. Uh it says, When you're good at something, you'll tell everyone. When you're great at something, they'll tell you. And his peers, all these, all these NBA players that played when he played and after recognize that MJ is the greatest, and he doesn't need to tell people that he's the greatest, like LeBron does.

SPEAKER_06 8:35

That's what I would add to so I get 40 seconds. That's what I would add to what uh Justin just said is the players that played with with Michael and with LeBron, the players that have watched and are still a part of the game, huge, huge percentage. Michael was the greater greatest. As a matter of fact, I saw a uh uh a listing recently of a player that played with both, and he put LeBron number nine on the greatest list. So the ones that played with both say Michael was the greatest, and that that means a lot to me. Okay, so we'll we'll yield a few seconds to to the junior team.

SPEAKER_02 9:15

So we're not we're not rebutting anything right now, we're just making our own statements.

SPEAKER_01 9:20

Okay. I'll go first. I mean, a lot of what you said, I would I would second, I would agree. Like I too, we are also looking at the collective body of work that has been presented uh to us. We're not just looking at individual stats or individual moments, but the the career, the longevity uh inside the game, even outside the game if you want to talk about it. Uh and I guess we're gonna get into it into this podcast, but when you look at all of those stats, impact, legacy, I can't help but fall onto the LeBron James has done more, achieved more, is still achieving um at this point in his career. And then as many people as you can find that have played with both or have known both, you can find just as many players that will say that LeBron James is the greatest that has ever played. So that's that's my one minute.

SPEAKER_02 10:19

Yeah, just to just to continue on here. Um, I love Michael Jordan. A couple years ago, I would have said Michael Jordan is the greatest of all time, but I don't want to be stuck in the past. This game's continually moving. Okay. LeBron James. Do I still make him opening statement, gentlemen? I'd like some extra time. Yeah. Um LeBron James is still playing. This book is not finished. He's still adding chapters to this book. He's still playing the game of basketball. I'm not stuck in the past. I think LeBron has recently overtaken MJ is the greatest of all time. I think one day Victor Wembenyama could overtake LeBron James or some kid who's in fourth grade somewhere. I'm not stuck in the past. This game's constantly evolving. There's new generations, there's new eras of children growing up watching this sport. And I do just want to clarify when we debate the GOAT, we're not saying the greatest team of all time. We're not saying the greatest era of all time, which I do believe a lot of your debates today. I'm stomaching my opening. Uh, we're talking about the greatest player to ever pick up a basketball recently. LeBron James.

SPEAKER_04 11:18

Okay, so I didn't know that you could set a lot more stipulations in your opening comments. We took two minutes.

SPEAKER_03 11:23

I mean, we had a time.

SPEAKER_00 11:24

The last stipulation was two minutes.

SPEAKER_06 11:29

So, yeah, if I was gonna be stuck in the past, I would go with Bill Russell and or John Habichak and or Lou Alcinder, Wilt Chamberlain. I was just trying to keep it that's that's a good point. The rebuttal is I've I watched those guys play. I watched Boston hang the banners every year and hated them because the Bulls were so bad. And there wasn't a basketball team in St. Louis, so we had to cheer for the team in Chicago, living in Illinois.

SPEAKER_00 11:57

So anyway, that is um that does bring us to our first question though. And given that you took opening statements, we're gonna yield the first question to your team. Are you ready?

SPEAKER_01 12:06

Yeah, go for it.

SPEAKER_00 12:07

Um, who did more for the sport?

SPEAKER_01 12:11

Who did more for the sport of basketball? Um, I will go back to what Pastor Justin just said a moment ago. Like, LeBron has been able to do what he has done because of Michael Jordan.

SPEAKER_07 12:24

True.

SPEAKER_01 12:25

But the same statement is made about Michael Jordan, Michael Jordan was able to do what he did because of all the other greats that had come before him, too. So, like this question like is harder because when it all sports and just life in general, you can only do what you can do because you're standing on the the shoulders of the giants of the people that came before you. Right. So LeBron maximized every opportunity he had to what he did. Jordan maximized every opportunity that he he had, which was taking the game of basketball to a global level, uh done something that no one else has done before. That opportunity is not available to LeBron because Jordan has already done that. But to say or to think like, oh, LeBron, if you flipped him, LeBron want to have globalized the game of basketball, I believe he definitely would have if he had came first or had came before Jordan. So LeBron, I give it to like Jordan that like, yeah, he's done more for the game because he's globalized the sport, globalized that type of culture. Um but it's just because LeBron didn't have that opportunity.

SPEAKER_02 13:29

Yeah, just to add to that, I I would agree they both fully maximize the era in which they played. I think if you flip them, you put LeBron in MJ's and you put Major you put MJ where LeBron played. I think LeBron does the exact same thing, if not more, than what MJ did in his time. I think uh as Brandon said, we stand on the shoulders of giants. But um I do also just want to say that um I think this is probably the one of the seven that's about a tie. I think they both did incredible things for the sport in the era in which they play basketball. Agreed.

SPEAKER_06 14:03

What's seven? So I can say everybody's got knows what the seven questions are but me.

SPEAKER_00 14:11

Yeah, I went over them with you yesterday.

SPEAKER_01 14:13

You said you knew what the questions were yesterday.

SPEAKER_00 14:14

You approved them.

SPEAKER_04 14:16

I'm joking. Okay, so say the question again. What is the question?

SPEAKER_00 14:19

Um, who did more for the sport?

SPEAKER_04 14:21

Who did more for the sport? See, and I'll respond to the jabs that were throwing earlier about us being old and old heads. Uh ultimately, absolutely, someone can come along and we can redefine them as the goat, but it hasn't happened yet. And so to to really for us seeing like so he saw Bill Russell and all that, I didn't see them play. That's old. I was well told that's a hundred-point game, by the way.

SPEAKER_06 14:50

He did a lot of these, yeah. Just reached up and rolled the ball over his fingers.

SPEAKER_04 14:53

I'll say seeing the impact that MJ had in the 90s because of the 92 Dream Team uh in Barcelona was absolutely incredible, and how basketball became more of a global sport. I'll say that the guys, and that's the difference maker. That's why uh the NBA became so popular. That's why it became such a cash cow and Michael Jordan was the reason. And so um I would even say, Um, and we're talking about different eras here, but I would say that MJ uh had a greater impact on basketball than anyone else had, despite trying to put people in different eras. I don't even think LeBron had the greatest impact in his era because I think there's another person that absolutely changed the game in his era Steph Curry. Stephen Curry. More so than LeBron James. So I think, yeah, I think I think MJ, I don't think it's a tie. Uh listen, and this is not uh I'm not a LeBron hater at all. LeBron is great. He is one of the greatest of all time. Agreed. I wouldn't drink on your eyes list.

SPEAKER_06 15:59

Second. Second.

unknown 16:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 16:01

Yeah. Yeah. Maybe third. I don't know.

SPEAKER_06 16:04

Yeah, I've joked with I've joked with you and said Kobe's second, LeBron's third. Yeah, so that's that's my Steph's third and LeBron's fourth, but but LeBron's second.

SPEAKER_04 16:12

That's my that's my answer, reasoning why MJ had a great impact on the game of basketball, and no one will ever match it.

SPEAKER_06 16:19

So let's teach the listening audience how to um disagree but to um to bless as well.

SPEAKER_01 16:26

So I mean I just did it.

SPEAKER_06 16:29

I said LeBron's second.

SPEAKER_01 16:30

Yeah, I think I think we've been doing well so far about it. Like it can seem like, hey, like that's a really good point. I agree a lot with what you're saying. Here's how I interpret like the evidence or the facts of the topic that we're talking about right now. So I think, yeah, it's uh how to have a healthy conflict, healthy conversation, uh, to show the other people that hey, I'm listening to you, I I hear what you're saying, I'm not just ready to respond. Like, I'm gonna address what you've shared and like validate it in some way. And then I'm gonna bring my my response, my beliefs to to the conversation.

SPEAKER_02 17:01

And to affirm your side, I love Michael Jordan. I showed my wife the last dance last uh exactly a year ago, last 4th of July. We loved it. I grew up on Space Jam. I love Michael Jordan. I'm not a Michael Jordan hater by any means, but over the last couple years, the body of work for LeBron can again, and it's not finished. That's the big thing. The case is not closed. He is still playing basketball, he's a free agent right now. But a couple years ago, I started feeling it, and it is this last playoff run. We're recording this July 2026, a couple of months ago. LeBron against the Houston Rockets, no Luka Doncic, no Austin Reeves. It's LeBron at 41. He's got his son on the team. He takes a 3-0 lead over Kevin Durant and the Houston Rockets at his age with no help. That was the moment. So no hate to MJ, no hate to Kobe, no hate to Steph. Love all these guys, but to me, it it's it's a recent fluid thing. I feel very fluid in this GOAT debate. I don't want to be stuck in the past. Did they lose that one? No, they they ended up stuck in the past round.

SPEAKER_01 18:11

They beat the Houston Rockets, but then went to the second round to lose to defending and NBH.

SPEAKER_04 18:15

Essentially, you're saying minute, you know, small achievements make you the GOAT to beat the Rockets.

SPEAKER_03 18:21

No, the body of work. It's it's the body of work.

SPEAKER_04 18:24

And we said this earlier, I don't think I finished the thought, but like we've seen MJ like at his prime in that, and we've also seen witness LeBron at the same time. And that's why, for me at least, I can say I can compare the two and be like, MJ's the goat, because I've seen both of them. And so, you know, we can you can say that we're like stuck in the past and that we're old heads or whatever, but the reality is just having it's the eye test, seeing both at the same time, uh, that I can say, well, MJ's a goat.

SPEAKER_06 18:56

So the greatest has got to be more than having a physical specimen body, yeah. Sure. And being able to pay for the help to keep it that way. His it's got to be it's got to have something to do as well with uh the mindset and the attitude.

SPEAKER_07 19:11

For sure.

SPEAKER_06 19:12

I'm not gonna miss this game. Um what were the bulls down in the playoffs? They were down one time, right?

SPEAKER_01 19:20

A lot of times. Yeah. That was a whole bunch of times.

SPEAKER_04 19:25

That's when you're facing, you know, these uh juggernaut all-time teams in the Celtics and the Pistons and with Hall of Famer upon Hall of Famer upon Hall of Famer.

SPEAKER_02 19:33

Oh, they want to talk about juggernaut teams. Oh, okay, okay. We'll talk about that a little bit. We'll talk about juggernaut teams.

SPEAKER_06 19:38

What juggernaut team did Michael have?

SPEAKER_04 19:40

I have a I have a oh well it's because they were the juggernaut. That's why.

SPEAKER_02 19:44

Correct.

SPEAKER_04 19:45

Yeah, absolutely. They were the juggernaut because of him. Greatest coach of all time, because of him.

SPEAKER_02 19:49

Scotty Pippen every single ring. That'll that'll make you. I don't want it to be a team of all time. But great.

SPEAKER_04 19:53

MJ had uh excuse me, LeBron had a ton of help along the way.

SPEAKER_00 19:57

I will I will have to interject because we're moving into the next topic. So we'll go ahead and say who did more for their team. We'll pick up right where you left off, Pastor Justin. Who did more for their team? Your side can go first.

SPEAKER_04 20:10

Who did more for their team?

SPEAKER_06 20:11

Well, that that's that's Michael. Because he stayed with his team. He didn't jump ship to try to get to a better team where there were star players. He didn't keep he didn't keep uh well I'll go to my I'll take my my talents to South Beach. Michael Jordan took his talent back to the baseball field back.

SPEAKER_02 20:29

Michael Jordan retired from his team twice and took his talents to baseball, but please continue to.

SPEAKER_06 20:37

He didn't go searching for a team that had star players on so that he could get there and win. Michael said, get on my back. We're gonna win because I'm here.

SPEAKER_01 20:45

Michael said, I can't make the playoffs, I can't get out of the first round of the playoffs, and so that they were able to the Chicago Bulls were able to go get Rodman and Pippen, and then they were able to LeBron with the wrong timeline.

SPEAKER_04 20:59

Yeah. That's the wrong timeline.

SPEAKER_01 21:00

Before they made the first playoffs? Pippen was there. Before they made their finals?

SPEAKER_04 21:04

Pippin was there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:05

They didn't have Rob in their first um.

SPEAKER_01 21:07

Okay, well, they don't they don't achieve any level of success until they get those guys. LeBron James, with his second best player or averaging 11 points a game, takes the Cleveland Cavaliers to the NBA finals.

SPEAKER_04 21:18

They played in the Leastern Conference. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 21:21

And at 1999, I'll give you at 19. Yeah. Straight up 19-year-old to 19-year-old. LeBron was a better 19-year-old. I'll give that.

SPEAKER_01 21:30

And I'll let's keep on who had more for their team. Who did more for their team?

SPEAKER_04 21:35

Are we still here? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I mean, that's a great point for their team. That's the team that he was on. Uh MJ, he left to go play bat uh baseball. Um there's lots of debate and there's lots of conspiracy theories that I don't believe. All right, we don't need any of that. We're talking about basketball. He abandoned his team. His dad, his dad was murdered, and so he's like, All right. I'm gonna talk about adversity later. Yeah. Uh I'm gonna take some time off. Uh so but it's pretty amazing that uh yeah, he can come back after two years and do another three-peat. Like that's that's that's pretty incredible. So that to do for more for his team, he elevated a lot of these guys that like people around the world knew who uh Luke Longley was, who Tony Kukoach was, from Australia. Like all these guys are like, oh, I know this because all eyes are on MJ and the Chicago Bulls, because they were just in his atmosphere, in his orbit.

SPEAKER_02 22:38

That's the same with LeBron, though. You think Tristan Thompson's dating in Kardashian without LeBron James?

SPEAKER_01 22:42

Uh yeah. When when Jordan left, the Bulls were still a 55-win team. They were a great, they were a great team, an elite team with or without Jordan. LeBron, when he left their team, they were 19-win teams. Because he made it all about himself. No, because he made everyone better.

SPEAKER_03 23:03

No, it was a great point.

SPEAKER_04 23:04

When you win or without him, when you leave, you don't leave legacy, you don't leave greatness. Like they they fell apart. So those guys had 55 wins. Yeah, you're right. But guess what? They couldn't do what they needed to because everybody's there to win, and they couldn't win without him. So he comes back and then they start winning.

SPEAKER_01 23:22

But they were still like an elite team, and Jordan takes him to the top. LeBron made all of those guys better around him looking at his points, his assists, his rebounds. He elevated again, same point. Like, who who are these guys? They wouldn't, they wouldn't know him without MJ. Matthew Delvadova playing against Stephen Curry. No one would he'd even get invited to the the 2016 Cavs reunion that just happened. Like, no one would know a guy like that if LeBron didn't help carry him.

SPEAKER_04 23:52

So I I just think the scale is different. So this is where we disagree, but I think the scale is different to where, yeah, you know those guys because you're watching, but like globally, because of who Michael Jordan was and the tone that he set and how he took basketball to another level. Like he these guys were able to uh get lucrative contract extensions because they played on the Bulls for some of these backup players. For the Bulls, John John Paxson, not just the Bulls, but they go elsewhere. Um, and then just even you know, endorsement deals. Like these guys are because of who MJ is. So helps helps the team around them.

SPEAKER_06 24:27

Who'd that happen to with LeBron? Because he went to Bosch and Wade.

SPEAKER_04 24:32

Just any other closing thoughts you have for a team and I'll just say uh uh I think the difference is is that MJ built the team. MJ built the dynasty. LeBron built the dynasty. LeBron left to go join other people.

SPEAKER_06 24:47

He he built himself.

SPEAKER_04 24:48

And they couldn't even do what MJ did with the Bulls.

SPEAKER_02 24:52

Again, Jordan had a Jerry Krauss built the 90s bulls, but that's that's fun.

SPEAKER_00 24:55

Um we'll get to you outside in just a second. Any other closing thoughts, PJ, on who did more for their team?

SPEAKER_06 25:00

Yeah, I'm gonna have to be louder, aren't I?

SPEAKER_00 25:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 25:04

It's the first time you've said yeah to that in my whole life. Um I forgot what I was gonna say. It was really good too. Oh well.

SPEAKER_00 25:15

All right, gentlemen, who did who did more for their team?

SPEAKER_02 25:18

Yeah, I think um I think LeBron James did more for his team. Um, I do want to rebut some of the things Pastor Justin was saying, just because as I mentioned in my opening statement, we're not debating the greatest team of all time. I think the 90s Bulls are the greatest basketball team of all time.

SPEAKER_04 25:33

Great, because of Michael. Only brought up the team because he said the 55 went T.

SPEAKER_02 25:37

Well, I know. And we are discussing right now who did more for their team. So we're gonna talk team, but I do want to say the GOAT still is an individual accolade who's the greatest player to pick up a basketball. The 90s Bulls are the greatest team ever assembled. Second best, the 2010s Golden State Warriors, who LeBron took down sometimes single-handedly. So, but we're we're discussing who did more for their team right now.

SPEAKER_06 26:00

You're putting the Warriors as the second best team ever?

SPEAKER_01 26:02

A 73 and 9 win team?

SPEAKER_02 26:05

2010, 2010 Golden Warriors are the second best dynasty team of all time.

SPEAKER_06 26:08

Okay, where are you putting the Lakers?

SPEAKER_02 26:10

Which Lakers?

SPEAKER_06 26:11

The Magic and Kareem. Showtime. Showtime and worthy.

SPEAKER_02 26:15

They're not familiar with them. They're top ten.

SPEAKER_06 26:18

Okay, back on the back.

SPEAKER_02 26:19

I would probably have the three Pete Lakers with um with Shaq and Kobe above them. I don't know if you were I do want to say, in terms of making his team better, LeBron, as we all know, but it's the first time we've said on the podcast today, he has the most points in NBA history. Regular season, playoffs, and combined. The most points ever. Yet he is also excuse me, he is also fourth in assists of all time. And that brings us to another goat, Lionel Messi, who's number one in points and number one in assists. So I do just want to say, greatness, you're you're getting it for yourself and you're getting it for your teammates. He has way more assists than Michael Jordan, and even more assists per game than Michael Jordan from 5.7 up to 7.2. So he was constantly making people around him better.

SPEAKER_01 27:12

No, no, I'm just I'm just when it goes to answer the question who did more for the team. Again, Jordan was able to, because they were not making playoff runs, they were able to, and Jerry Costa was building his team, they were able to go out and get guys to help build that Bulls team. The Cleveland Cavaliers, because LeBron was already taking them to the finals, they weren't able to get these draft picks and get other people. So yeah, he had to go to Miami to go play with some guys. Um, because if he stayed in Cleveland, they weren't gonna get a Kyrie Irving where he could later go up and team up with him. LeBron was already taking those calves deep into the playoffs, which again, you can't build. Jordan in those years, they were not making the playoffs like that. So they could have room for picks, for trades, for all these things. Um, so I think that right there is why for LeBron has done more for his team. And again, look, when they leave, still a 55-1 team. When LeBron leaves, they're not even sniffing the playoffs.

SPEAKER_06 28:07

Okay, you're talking about us talking about team. All of that was about team.

SPEAKER_01 28:10

Yeah, because the question is more for more for their team.

SPEAKER_06 28:12

And I'll say to but what I'm saying. Oh, go ahead. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_04 28:15

No, no, no, you go ahead.

SPEAKER_06 28:17

Um you have to include defense if you're picking the greatest player of all time. Okay. So a player that doesn't carry his team defensively can't be the greatest player of all time.

SPEAKER_02 28:28

They both did. LeBron and Michael Jordan both carry their teams defensively.

SPEAKER_06 28:31

But everybody said when Michael determined somebody wasn't gonna score, they didn't score. Dan Marley against the Phoenix Suns.

SPEAKER_04 28:40

How many all day?

SPEAKER_06 28:41

Marley has said over and over again, he kept telling me I'm not gonna score, and I did everything I could. We strategized the games, and I still couldn't score. Yeah. Nobody said that about LeBron. LeBron's belly ache, he belliaches about not getting a uh a uh MVP a um defensive MVP.

SPEAKER_01 28:57

But you people say that he was snuffed on not getting uh a defensive player of the year.

SPEAKER_02 29:02

2013, the guy who was second team all defense, not even first team, won defensive player of the year over LeBron. So he should have won it in 2012-13.

SPEAKER_04 29:09

So how many all defensive teams has he made in his career? Six. I don't know. Six. Do you know how many uh MJS? Nine. Nine great, yeah. So uh so to be able to say, hey, the full body of working on the city. Yeah, it is. This thing's gonna be all over the players. But with points we were all over the place.

SPEAKER_02 29:26

Well, when it's points and assists, we're not counting statistics, but all defensive teams we are.

SPEAKER_04 29:29

I didn't well I didn't say that, but I think we probably have to go back to some of the the claims about uh the team. Uh they were making the playoffs when MJ was first in the league. Like he he got onto a team that was like absolutely awful. Like they're smoking uh in the in the locker room. You know, like so they're awful. But then they do go to the playoffs, and he actually had minutes restrictions, all that kind of stuff. Like, so they are making the playoffs then uh and he's carrying them like in like LeBron was doing with his teams. Uh so you know, maybe we have to correct some of this in post, but like I think I have an editor for this podcast.

SPEAKER_00 30:08

Out of this because as good as it can be.

SPEAKER_06 30:12

Once again, for the listening and viewing audience, right here now in front of the camera is Sam Gamuer. So you just see in here on a consistent basis, Pastor Brigand me, but here is the guy that controls it all. So you heard it, you heard it right there what he's gonna do to try to prove.

SPEAKER_00 30:32

Gonna keep us all honest. So, gentlemen, are you done answering the question? I just want to say more for their team.

SPEAKER_02 30:38

LeBron did more for his teams because he brought titles to three cities. He's gonna have statues in front of three NBA arenas: Miami, LA, Cleveland, plus all of his international Olympic success as well, which Michael had as well. I'm sure we'll get into at some point. But I think LeBron did more for all four of his teams when you consider his three NBA franchises and team USA.

SPEAKER_00 30:59

I will say I was gonna move us on to the next question. Good. Next question is who did more as a player?

SPEAKER_01 31:05

Great. I've got that.

SPEAKER_00 31:09

No, they went first last time. Y'all just answered them this the second time. They start with the team.

SPEAKER_06 31:15

Team we went first? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:16

Okay. So y'all go first. Who did more as a player? We went first as a team. You didn't, y'all just talked a lot across.

SPEAKER_04 31:22

She made me go first. Oh god.

SPEAKER_01 31:24

So who did more as a now? Okay. I went first last time.

SPEAKER_02 31:28

It's great. Um let's start with a question. How many players are in the 50,000 point club in NBA history? How many? Justin, did you mind? Do you count him for me? One. One.

SPEAKER_06 31:43

LeBron James. Okay. So let's settle it. You're saying longevity means he's the greatest.

SPEAKER_01 31:48

I'm saying longevity means the work into the body of work.

SPEAKER_04 31:51

That's the only category.

SPEAKER_06 31:52

Okay, so if we're gonna have longevity be the marker of the greatest of all time, because that's the point you just made, wasn't it, Sam? Because of his points.

SPEAKER_02 31:59

Yeah, body of work. Longevity is a huge part of it. Okay, so we're gonna sustain success over the long term, over his entire career.

SPEAKER_06 32:07

We're gonna include missed games. We're gonna include all that stuff with LeBron versus like.

SPEAKER_02 32:17

Let me just say this. I don't know if the listeners can see this, but I do, because I'll zoom in and post. No thing. I have a document here with statistics. This is unbiasedly created of um this is all per game in regular season, per game in playoffs, career totals. The highlighted in yellow are the ones where LeBron is higher or MJ is higher. Whoever's highlighted in yellow, and the left column is LeBron. As you can see, it's a bit of a landslide for individual accolades as a player.

SPEAKER_06 32:45

From a bit of a biased statistician.

SPEAKER_00 32:48

Yeah, could we get um potentially some credentials on that when you do post it of how we know it's unbiased? Great. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 32:53

I mean, we can read out. This is basketballreference.com. So we're happy to read it out if we want.

SPEAKER_00 32:59

Not that I don't trust you, but continue as you're finishing your opening argument. Better as a player. Or is it all you have?

SPEAKER_02 33:05

Yeah, I mean, we're we're talking about who did more as a player, so let's just go to career totals and value. Um, on this one, LeBron has more seasons, more games played, more points, more rebounds, more assists, more minutes, more playoff points, more playoff assists, more win share, more VORP, which is value over replacement. He has more All-Star selections, he has more All-NBA selections, he has more all NBA first team selections, he has an assist title, he has more finals appearances, he has more Olympic golds, he has two, or excuse me, one Olympic MVP. He won an NBA Cup, and he was the first ever MVP of the NBA Cup at age 39. Longevity. Need I continue? LeBron James did more as a player than Michael James.

SPEAKER_01 33:55

What about all the points per game statistics I just showed? Points per game. We'll get to that. Points per game, Jordan leads, and I think free throw percentage, Jordan leads. But assist per game, LeBron, rebounds per game, LeBron. Blocks per game, I think is even. Um, but LeBron has more blocks career-wise than Jordan, which you're talking about defensively. Jordan has more steals. LeBron has more blocks. Talk about defensively, you could watch a 10-minute highlight reel of nothing but LeBron James blocks.

SPEAKER_06 34:22

Because he got beat on defense at the other end and he had to run to catch up to block the ball.

SPEAKER_01 34:27

Because he has secondary players that don't know which way the ball is supposed to go, so he has to run full court now. He didn't have Pippin and Robin down.

SPEAKER_04 34:34

Yeah, you're right. He had other Hall of Famers with him. Yeah, a bunch of them.

SPEAKER_01 34:38

So um, so those are not longevity, those are percentages.

SPEAKER_02 34:42

Free goal percentage, three point percentage, LeBron, LeBron. Okay. Are we are we up?

unknown 34:46

Yeah. Sure.

SPEAKER_00 34:47

If y'all are done.

SPEAKER_01 34:48

Yeah, those are my individual.

SPEAKER_00 34:50

Go for it.

SPEAKER_06 34:50

All-time rank. Total points, LeBron first. Grant you, longevity, the point you guys have been making. Absolutely. Michael fifth. Now are you ready? Points per game. LeBron fifth, Michael first. Playoff points per game, LeBron sixth, Michael first. Um scoring titles, LeBron sixth, Michael first. Finals MVPs, LeBron second, Michael first. Lot less times of playing because LeBron played for so long. All defensive first teams, LeBron fifth, Michael first. Player efficiency ratings, LeBron third, Michael first. Playoffs, playoff per. What's per stand for? I forgot. Anyway, uh LeBron third, Michael first. Win shares in 48 minutes. LeBron eighth, Michael first. Playoff wins out of 48 games. LeBron third, Michael first. Playoff, uh what's BPM?

SPEAKER_04 35:52

Beats per minute.

SPEAKER_06 35:55

LeBron third, Michael first. There's just three more. Offensive BPM. LeBron second, Michael first. Playoff, offensive BPM. LeBron second, Michael first. Game score, LeBron 14th, because of all those times he got fussy and pouty and quit on his team. Michael first. He never quit on his team. Sick, he played. So there you see. Head to head, Michael Stompson on head-to-head comparison.

SPEAKER_02 36:20

Not a bias graphic at all. Can I just say if we don't know what the statistic means, I feel like bringing it up is maybe not. And if if we don't, if we're just saying letters that we don't stand for.

SPEAKER_04 36:32

Some of those are like advanced stats, and that's okay. That's okay. I've done advanced research.

SPEAKER_02 36:38

Facebook screenshots.

SPEAKER_04 36:39

So I'll say, are you still going? I'm done going. Okay. I'll say, you know, all the yellow and white, um, all that is just longevity. But when you look at um the same amount of games played, so MJ had almost 3,000 more points. Points is a big deal for you guys. Y'all keep bringing it up. So this should be a big deal to you. MJ had almost 3,000 more points than LBJ in the same amount of games. In the let me say because he talked over me. Uh, in the same amount of games, 1,072 games. He had almost 3,000 more points than LeBron in that time frame. Same time frame. Not as a big deal for you guys, is points. I'll say also as well, the the um context matters, right? Hey, like when you're reading scripture, everybody. The context that you're reading scripture for some matters, right? So uh when you even look at like rebounds and stuff, they're not asking shooting guards to rebound more than a forward and especially a point forward. Like, right? We all love Luca. Luca is down by the basket, so he can get the ball and control the offense right away. Sure. Like the shooting guard in MJ, especially in the 90s, that's not how it goes. He wasn't expected to rebound, they didn't pay him to rebound. Um, you had one of the best of all time rebounding uh in the worm in that three-peat, second three-peat, in uh Dennis Rodman. The worms. So uh context matters a lot. And in my point, too, about the whole points thing, it is absolutely incredible. Uh, to me, it was never like, okay, I'm gonna say that you're the goat now, because we never really considered Kareem to be the goat. There might have been small pockets of people saying, hey, he's the goat. He won six championships. He he was the all-time leading score for a long time, but people didn't say he was the goat. And why is that? It's because points don't actually matter that much in the conversation. It's awesome. Yeah, but ultimately, I feel like there's lots of other factors in play.

SPEAKER_06 38:44

That's why I brought defense up.

SPEAKER_04 38:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:46

And I I don't hang my hat on like, oh, because he's an all-time points leader, like that, he's the goat. And as just one snippet of the large body, the the big picture of what LeBron has done. A lot of people say that LeBron is a, well, in big moments, like, what does LeBron do? People have been saying LeBron's a pass first guy. Okay, he as a pass first career player, he's made it to the all-time number one in all-time scoring. Longity, still being fourth and assist. Longevity has a long has a big thing to do in um again, totality of work, um, body of work and career-wise. I'll say this, like, I'm up in the air. 2018 LeBron, phenomenal. A lot of years, LeBron. But what I've still debate about him, Peak, Michael Jordan might be the GOAT. Those years, his apex years, might put him in the GOAT conversation. Sure. You heard it here freshly. But then you've expand out towards the totality of his career.

SPEAKER_07 39:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:49

That's where of MJ's career. Yeah, of MJ's career. Now this is where it gets questionable because now but LeBron's been able to do for 21 plus years now, um, compete at this high level that only MJ's in the comments. And I think I think we obviously can say that.

SPEAKER_04 40:05

Yeah, we obviously can say there's some greatness to that longevity. Longevity, absolutely. Like that category, it's yeah, absolutely. But then, but there's there's a lot of other things because of the longevity, it's a factor that I think is being overlooked. I man, I don't know if anybody will ever be a physical specimen like LeBron is in the NBA. And yeah, everybody's gonna get injured, but the amount of games that he can play in that span of time, awesome. But that to me, that doesn't make you the goat. Like, that's not the category. And I would I would say too, as we talk about, you know, that this is the longevity conversation, we're gonna be all over the place. I apologize, this is my fault. But uh, like MJ played three years in college, right? And then he had one year that he basically had a broken foot and missed a ton of games. That's when those minute restrictions came in that the Bulls had on him uh when he came back, and then yeah, took two years off to play baseball. And so that's still shy of the longevity con uh uh argument uh but at the same time like like he played a long time and his peak was absolutely greater and more dominant than LeBron's wheel.

SPEAKER_02 41:16

That's that's what I was about to say. And Brandon sort of said it too, but that's sort of my thesis statement for this whole debate. Because again, I'm not an MJ hater. He is to me second best of all time.

SPEAKER_06 41:26

But Michael Jordan I'll hold it again. I'm holding things together here for those that can't see. We're gonna listening and not watching. I'm having to hold the table in place and I'm having to carry my head.

SPEAKER_02 41:38

He's on LeBron right now. He's on the wrong right now. Thank you, LeBron. No, okay. Here's what I'm gonna say. Michael Jordan had the best peak of any player in NBA history. LeBron James had the best career of any player in NBA history. And LeBron James is the best basketball player to ever live, in my opinion. But I do agree that Michael Jordan had the best peak. But to be the GOAT, it's not just about your peak. It is about that whole body of work. And I do want to correct something that was incorrectly stated from the other side here is that uh that Michael Jordan only ever played with the Bulls. He stayed loyal to his team. How come the Washington Wizards haven't come out of anyone's mouth over here? We forget.

SPEAKER_04 42:19

He averaged 20 points a game in his 40s. There we go.

SPEAKER_02 42:22

Were they making any deep playoff runs like the Lakers were or Obama's?

SPEAKER_04 42:28

MJ was a terrible owner as well. And so that played into like his dominance while he was even a player. So I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 42:35

Yeah, how'd the Hornets do while Michael Jordan was the was the owner of the Hornets?

SPEAKER_04 42:39

That's what but but you mean we're making it into other things, just like it segues into my point. That we're we're talking about the GOAT, the greatest of all time, right? Yeah. MJ. And we're not talking about a career, like there's a difference. Like there's it, it's not a career argument, it's about the goat, the greatest of all time, who establishes the peak standard dominance of their era, and you guys admitted that it was MJ.

SPEAKER_02 43:08

You guys said body of work at the start of the podcast. You were the first ones to say the word body of work. That's fine.

SPEAKER_04 43:13

Body of work, but my my argument is not hey, career makes you your and because it all comes back to longevity for you guys, which some of those stats go into.

SPEAKER_00 43:22

And I will say for the next question as we continue to move forward. Sorry. Um Hey everyone, thank you so much for listening to this episode. We have so much more conversation yet ahead of us. And even at the end, we talk more about greatness and pursuing greatness in our own space. So whether or not you're really into basketball or not, I hope you're enjoying the conversation and just learning how to have great debate and great conflict and learn from each other. And if you could like, share, subscribe, send this to somebody who maybe wouldn't listen to a podcast otherwise, but kind of into basketball, and maybe it'll help grow and strengthen their life and impact them in a way that is much greater than just the conversation of basketball. But we hope you're enjoying this. We hope you come back and listen to our second part coming out so soon. It's gonna be great. We love you so much.