SPEAKER_03 0:00

The titles of Jesus look to the future. Listen to me, vision without action is merely a dream. Action without vision is a waste of time, and vision with action can change the whole world. He will speak to you. The question is, are you listening?

SPEAKER_02 0:22

Stats going to and I will say for the next question as we continue to move forward. Yeah, sorry. Um, who made other players better?

SPEAKER_05 0:30

Oh, that's easy.

SPEAKER_02 0:31

Arguably greatness isn't something you just possess within yourself, it's what you create in others around you, correct? So would you guys like to start off by defending who made other players better?

SPEAKER_04 0:41

Well, points are made. He made Kerr uh great. Uh he made Paxson great. He made uh who was the center? Um Cartwright who could hardly run up and down the floor. Great. I don't did LeBron play with with a a limited center. I don't remember.

SPEAKER_00 1:02

Timothy Moskoff, you'd think he was a I'm sure.

SPEAKER_04 1:06

I'm sure he did.

SPEAKER_02 1:07

These poor other players, you know. Shout out to you guys made a thing, but he's been talking on him. He made Robin better.

SPEAKER_04 1:14

LeBron JaVale McGee.

SPEAKER_05 1:16

Y'all hey, shout out in China.

SPEAKER_04 1:19

Michael had attitudes, but it was attitudes towards better. LeBron had attitudes, has attitudes, but it's attitudes about me. And I can't, I can't. Somebody that's emotionally immature and makes it all about themselves and has to keep telling everybody I'm the greatest, I'm the greatest, they can't be the greatest.

SPEAKER_07 1:37

This is where we're starting to get into the this isn't the stuck in the past, but this is starting to look at the past through rose-colored glasses. If you're gonna say Michael Jordan was not every bit, if not more cocky than LeBron James, and that's starting to look at the past with rose-colored glasses, I would say. Michael Jordan was a very extremely cocky, confident player. He absolutely believed he was the best. And I don't know why it seems like only only LeBron was confident in his own greatness.

SPEAKER_02 2:06

I will say though, we're gonna continue letting y'all give your full defense as you give your bottles to who made other play players better.

SPEAKER_04 2:13

So, what's the editor gonna do with that? The editor has a lot of power. 100%.

SPEAKER_06 2:18

100%. He's gonna change our words to say that someone else is I don't like that argument. AI voiceover.

SPEAKER_04 2:25

Yeah, that's right. Well, so just just the person. So where were what question are we on?

SPEAKER_02 2:31

Who made other players better?

SPEAKER_04 2:32

Okay, so we're talking about the person. I don't remember, I could be wrong. I'm not gonna use your old cut rose colored glasses. Are you in c anyway? Um I don't remember Michael ever flopping and acting like he had a broken femur all the while looking up to see if the camera was on him. LeBron did that. That's that's a disgrace to a professional athlete to be thinking about, especially when you're being viewed by the world, to be thinking about, is everybody watching me? Am I is my sales job of this foul good enough? And then it turns out there was nothing. There was no injury, nothing. And that kind of thing just might be rose-colored glasses. But when I watch, when I w watch LeBron, I think, man, what a specimen, what an athlete, what a career, what what longevity. Uh with his toes the way they are, I'm amazed over and over and over again that he can do what he does with lateral movement, etc. Have you ever seen his toes? No. Oh man. Has anybody anybody ever seen his toes?

SPEAKER_00 3:33

Jordan's toes? No, LeBron's LeBron's toes.

SPEAKER_04 3:36

I try not to look at anyone's toes. Well, it's it's all over the internet. They are they are messed up. Don't go look at toes on the baseball.

SPEAKER_01 3:46

Isn't your weird term? Basketball.

SPEAKER_04 3:52

Just go ahead and make some some make some noise. Um, what was that point I was trying to make? It was good in my own mind.

SPEAKER_01 3:59

Toes that he could just overcoming adversity of toes. I believe Pastor Justin would like to add.

SPEAKER_06 4:06

I was just gonna say uh that MJ demanded excellence from his from his teammates. Uh was he a jerk? Probably. Um, but he demanded excellence and he brought that out of his teammates. Um I even early on in MJ's career, like the scoring, the highlights, like everything is just a thing of beauty. And you you watch him play, but he wasn't accomplishing a whole lot, and he had to have some convincing from his coach coaches to be like, hey, you're gonna be able to accomplish more to achieve the goals that you want to achieve if you include your teammates. So he started taking the focus off of himself and to help his teammates get better, um, and that's when they started having success. And so that's what like you make the other people around you better, great. And no, it doesn't always come with assists, uh, but like he's demanding the best, the absolute best, out of his teammates. Okay, so I got a question for you guys.

SPEAKER_04 5:04

Can the greatest of all time be the greatest of all time when he only played all 82 games one season?

SPEAKER_07 5:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 5:15

Of course they're gonna say.

SPEAKER_07 5:16

He just said it's not about longevity, so yes.

SPEAKER_04 5:21

Well, my point is if you're great, you don't miss a game because of a hangnail. Can I offer a rebuttal? Um I just in your court. What I'm looking at here, I'm looking at a Stockton. Another Facebook, another screenshot. Another Stockton comparison for the Brock. Out of 22 games, Stockton played 16 seasons all 82 games. So longevity. You guys keep bringing up longevity.

SPEAKER_02 5:49

We can happily fact check all of our resources for those who listen to this later.

SPEAKER_04 5:53

I have to have a second. We're doing perfect attendance now, so but yeah, we're we're we're blessing your stat sheet there. Yeah. Um out of 1413 games, LeBron only played all 82 games once. So Stockton and LeBron almost played the same number of games with Stockton playing complete season 16 times. LeBron just once. Yeah. So can you be the greatest when you're not on the floor a whole bunch of the time? That's that's the question I want to throw out. If I can respond if this is if this is inaccurate, I'll take I'll take responsibility for capturing something that's it.

SPEAKER_07 6:30

To me, the two the two big points you just made about LeBron what you perceive as flopping or selling calls to the refs, and what you also just showed of LeBron not playing all 82 games, to me, those are this gets into our next question because to me, those are two things that are derivative of the era in which they played. LeBron played in a very different era than Michael Jordan. If Michael Jordan was playing today, he would absolutely be working the refs.

SPEAKER_02 7:00

I will say we'll keep eras for eras. He can stay in the world. We'll talk about that next.

SPEAKER_07 7:04

I do just want to say all of your big points for this to me, if Michael Jordan's playing today, he's doing the same thing. It's a different era of basketball. It's an era of load management, it's an era of working the refs. Every great player playing today. We all love Luka Doncic. Luka Doncic works the refs. So I I think there's things that are different eras, and we're not comparing errors, we're comparing again the next question is who made other players better?

SPEAKER_02 7:27

And I can't wait to get the Eros question because I'm excited to hear those arguments. But your response to who made other players better.

SPEAKER_07 7:34

Go ahead, Brandon.

SPEAKER_00 7:35

Who made other players better? Uh again, LeBron James has elevated all of his teammates, all of his players around, whether it was in Cleveland, Miami, or Los Angeles, and wherever he decides to go to next, uh, his teammates will be better because of him. Um assist being one of them, but not getting into why assist make your players around you better. Uh yeah, Jordan did um demand excellence out of um his teammates and the people around him. I don't know where to take this though. If we're not going statistically, maybe we're going more towards like personality, because you can also go watch the last dance. Like, there were teammates that were like, yeah, he is a is a jerk. Like they did not like how Jordan talked to them, how Jordan treated to them. So if you go personality-wise, LeBron James has done nothing but speak words of life and edify his brothers um that he's played with and has built them up um with like words, words of love and recurrence. So if you want to go personality-wise or character-wise, he's only spoken up to all of the guys he's played with. But again, basketball-wise or statistics-wise, like he's carried people that had no business in the playoffs, no business in the finals, all the way to the finals because of not only his level of greatness, but his ability to elevate everyone else's game. It is again, you look at other players, other analysts, people will say that LeBron James has the highest basketball IQ out of anybody that's ever played the sport of basketball before. They call him La GM because like he sees the game in a way that no one else does. Not only is he the greatest player on the court, the greatest of all time on the court, but he's been like for all the teams he's been on, also the the coach of the team. Jordan got to ride on the back of a Hall of Fame coach for his career. LeBron James. Got him fired. Who's who's bet not when they were there after they left, and they're like, Yeah, now their teams are back down to 21 teams. Um who's who's the best coach? Pat Riley? Ex Folster. Yeah. Or Pat Riley, maybe, yeah. Um his best coach. Pat Lou. What about JJ Reddick? Map's legend, JJ Reddick. Yeah, LeBron didn't have a Hall of Fame coach. Not only was he the greatest player, but basketball IQ and mindset, he's able to get people into positions and play at a higher level than they would on their own, or even with their coach, because LeBron just sees the game better. And again, you can go on to just any sports show and people talk about the high regard of LeBron's IQ.

SPEAKER_04 10:15

So I'm not gonna disagree with that. Who's the coach in Miami when LeBron was there? Spolster. Okay, that's what you guys just said.

SPEAKER_06 10:21

Yeah, I would uh I love the Le GM and La Reader. I can't attest to that. Corniness is not one of the categories. Yeah, that's right. I would, to me, in my mind, when you when we talk about that, and and and LeBron didn't have these coaches, and he became the coach, uh, there's a level of like humility and submitting to that authority. Like, was he actually doing that or is he trying to take over? Also, just rebut rebut rebuttal? Hold on, is it that sounds weird to say that. Um, we need it, we need another blunder to get Krista. I'll uh you the other point you made about a Hall of Fame coach, he wasn't a Hall of Fame coach, and it goes back to the point that Jordan, because of who he was and and the success that he was that he had as a player, he built and elevated those guys. You you recognize Phil Jackson as a Hall of Fame coach. Now he did go on to win with the Lakers, but it was because of in big part of MJ. So that was built. And he didn't leave and could try to go establish somewhere else. He built the team.

SPEAKER_07 11:29

You can kind of make that argument anywhere, though. It's like you can say LeBron made Kyrie, and it's like you can say anyone made anyone, but the reality is Phil Jackson went on to the Lakers and saw an insane amount of success on a completely different team, not riding Michael Jordan. So that's not my point is just he wasn't. Phil Jackson's a great coach no matter what team he played.

SPEAKER_06 11:48

He wasn't recognized as that when he was with the Bulls, you know. And that's the thing, too, is like, you know, when we talk about the oh, you had this person, that person, or teams or whatever, like those guys can't help that. Like, you know, Cowboys fans, it's always like people are like, Emma Smith is not the greatest running back of all time, or shouldn't he be considered because he had this amazing offensive line? That's his fault. He did the best of what he with what he could, right? So MJ's the same way.

SPEAKER_02 12:15

Three questions left, but I really am excited about this next one because Sam is so eager to get into this space, and I'm eager to hear your your arguments about it. But this is the respective eras question, and we're gonna start with you guys. We started with y'all last time. So, in the respective eras, who would have played well in both and which one did better in their own? It's a two-part question because it you have to discuss both sides. Who did better in their own era and who would have done well in either?

SPEAKER_07 12:42

I mean, let's start by saying this is fully this is fully a theoretical question at this point. We we have no way of knowing. We're given our best guess. To me, this is another one that I highly respect and value both of these players. I think they both would have been great in either era. But I mean, if you're just picking them up and placing them, if LeBron is the specimen that he is in in the 90s, I think it might have been bigger than I think I don't think Michael Jordan playing in today's NBA would be would rise to the top in the way that LeBron did, versus I think LeBron would absolutely rise to the top in the nineties.

SPEAKER_00 13:22

I'll go against my teammate here for a little bit. I don't know, not to we're all Unity, unity. I s again, it's this is a hard question comparing errors to a like I think Michael Jordan is still Michael Jordan if he was playing in today's era. I think LeBron is still LeBron if he was playing in the 90s. Like I they're just that great of athletes and competitors, uh, not only physically but mindset-wise, I think they'd be the same in in either era. Um I forget where I was going, but one question I did have when it came to uh generations and just era basketball. When uh MJ was playing, were they still just playing man-to-man basketball? Was zone defense a thing yet? Zone defense came in the early 2000s, right?

SPEAKER_06 14:08

Yeah, I don't think it was. I don't think zone defense was.

SPEAKER_00 14:11

I think that was that would be the one thing that you could say, like career-wise, LeBron had to face literally zone defense where guys could come down around him. You could say thing about Jordan, they're literally hand sending the house against him, too. Um it's just, I don't know, hard to get into that. It's really hard.

SPEAKER_04 14:28

Well, we haven't yeah, we haven't brought that up. Okay. Yeah, I was asking, like Yeah, we haven't brought up the difference of the game in the areas either. I was gonna break some of that up. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_01 14:37

Well, that's what this question is all about.

SPEAKER_07 14:39

Well, let me just get into what I was starting to say earlier, which is the critiques of LeBron all being he's a baby, he works the refs, he um he's selling calls. What was the other big thing? I'm just I'm blanking.

SPEAKER_04 14:51

I was talking about his acting when he's laying on the floor looking up to see if he's on the screen. Yeah. I didn't say anything about that.

SPEAKER_07 14:56

Oh, and the perfect attendance thing. He he missed games. He didn't play all 82 in a season. Again, to me, what I hear from you, which is totally valid, is I miss the 90s NBA. I miss hand checking, I miss guys who were not doing load management. Nobody said that. I miss that that's what I'm hearing from what you're saying, and which is totally fine. I wasn't here to watch the 90s NBA, but I'm not yearning for it either.

SPEAKER_04 15:20

I'm just trying to make the point. I think that game was harder. It was more physical. I think the game's not as physical now that you can fake a charge and get a call. Then they fought. There were multiple times where they were fist fighting. And so I think the era that Michael played in was a harder physiological era on the people's bodies, on the players' bodies. It's much more geared now toward offense. That's the point I'm trying to make.

SPEAKER_07 15:50

Harder in a sense, but I think your average NBA player has way more talent and skill today than 30 years ago. Agreed. I think LeBron's playing against way tougher opponents than Michael Jordan was 30 years ago. So, yeah, the rules were different. It was more of a physical game, but I think LeBron James is doing what he's doing against better players than who Michael Jordan was playing against.

SPEAKER_00 16:11

Yeah, because again, generations, the style of game, style play is harder. But there's a stat out there that in MJ's I don't know if it was career, it couldn't be career, but playoff runs, finals runs, he only played against one other player that averaged more than 25 points per game in the playoffs. LeBron has faced a dozen, a dozen and a half players that all average 25 points or more. So like the the level of competition that LeBron has been playing against statistically is was harder because he's scoring going against guys that are dropping 25-30 a game. But again, it's hard to compare that against Harris. The game has changed, offensive numbers are skewed.

SPEAKER_06 16:53

So but statistically, like that's that is the case, but but it's hard to compare or yeah, and con again, context matters because like they score more in today's NBA, and they didn't in the 90s uh and 80s as well. Like it was there was a there's a lot more defense that was involved, but they're like literally like clobbering, like tackling. Um and I I'll say too, like, I don't think in today's NBA that every player complains as much as what LeBron has done or Luca definitely does. Not every player approaches it that way, uh, which is pretty refreshing. Uh, but um, you know, when you when you talk about the errors, it is hard to compare. That's what we're gonna end up with. Yeah, but it but the thing that I always go back to is like who was the most absolutely head and shoulders uh dominant above everybody else in their era? And because people are like, like, oh, MJ's playing against plumbers and they all like these guys have plumbing jobs in the offseason stuff, but that's not the case. Uh and and I think that he was more dominant and defined the game in a bigger way against his area. Against his era, no. See, that's the thing, is it even whole career? Even even Wizards, Michael Jordan, even in the 80s that you're often forgetting about when he was losing in the playoffs against these juggernauts, uh, MJ was like, dude, that dude was so smooth and so sweet, and like like his dominance as an individual player was like nothing else. It's not just for six titles. Uh, but I I honestly I think that because we can arrive and say, yeah, uh the the Ayers thing is difficult to talk about, but I do think that MJ in today's NBA, if he was able to score 30 points a game in a crowded spacing 90s defense, what he would be able to do in today's NBA with how spread out it is and how heavily emphasized uh three-point shots are, I think he would I think he would dominate. And I think that there's a I think that there's a um, you know, we talked about hand checking, the rough physical play that existed then that doesn't exist now. I think you put him in today's NBA, he scores even more.

SPEAKER_07 19:09

I just think part of MJ's thing is the mystique of it. It's he was doing stuff no one had ever seen before. Some of you look at MJ's highlights, things like from the last dance, they're like his greatest plays of all time. People had never seen guys do that. You've got role players making mid-level exception money today who can do the things Michael Jordan was doing in the 90s that no one had ever done before. Sure, he was first. If LeBron was first, MJ would have walked in the door after him. It's just you can't help the era you play in, you can only maximize the error you play in, I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_06 19:42

Exactly. And so that's why I think MJ did that more so than LeBron has, because Steph has defined the game a little bit more in this era than LeBron has. Nobody could be that couldn't be said for anyone else except for MJ in this era.

SPEAKER_00 19:56

Because Steph can do what Steph's game everyone can replicate. Everyone can start shooting more like kids now want to start shooting the three ball. Kids now want to start getting foul calls like SG. Kids now are doing that.

SPEAKER_06 20:10

Kids don't do that.

SPEAKER_00 20:11

Yeah, don't flop. Don't flop.

SPEAKER_04 20:13

That ruins it to me.

SPEAKER_00 20:14

But that's people can't emulate LeBron James' game because of his physical stature and nature. He can play, he can play and he can guard the one through five. Jordan is not playing or guarding the one through five. And that's why, again, just another whole picture. What makes LeBron James the greatest? I'll give it to you. Like, Steph's changed the game more in this generation more because of like his shot, but I think LeBron has changed the game just as much. He had what eight straight Eastern Finals appearances, nine finals appearances. Like now look at the Eastern Conference since he's left. Like it's been a different winner every single year. He dominated the Eastern Conference for all that time. And then also, too, during LeBron's reign, and still now, like they're not just teams and organizations are game planning how to beat LeBron James.

SPEAKER_04 21:04

They used to do that with Michael too.

SPEAKER_00 21:05

No, they're game planning how to beat the Bulls because they were a great team. They weren't they were a dominant team with and without MJ.

SPEAKER_04 21:13

No, they weren't worried about Rodman and Cartwright scoring.

SPEAKER_06 21:16

Yeah, you're trying to stop MJ. I love that you brought that up because I kind of want to say I want to rebut to that. Why do you keep looking at the camera when you say that? You feel guilty about it. No, no. Is that uh 2011 Mavs, right? Like we all Mavs fans, absolutely love him. Dirk, um greatest run, uh greatest championship run of all time, in my opinion. Yes. Yeah. Uh 2011 Mavs. Recently, uh Jason Terry had an interview where he said um we could we knew at that point in time in LeBron's career, he was not a good jump shooter. And so we targeted him for that. We also knew that uh when they played zone defense. Defense and spacing, they created confusion for him. If he saw two defenders around him, he got a little panicked and would throw the ball away and make bad decisions. They game planned against LeBron James in that manner. No one could ever say that they are game planning for MJ. So what Jason Terry said is like, we know D-Wade's gonna get his. We can't stop him. Let's try somebody else. Oh, it can be LeBron, let's do that. No one's doing that for MJ. Like, they no no one is trying to game plan to stop MJ in those in those series, in those games, because they knew that he couldn't be stopped because he didn't have any part of he didn't have any game part of his game that was deficient. But LeBron did.

SPEAKER_07 22:43

Again, we concede. Agree or disagree. We both concede that. We both concede that Michael Jordan had the best peak. Like those six seasons where he won the championship, no one's touching that. But we're talking from rookie season to retiring, which for Michael Jordan was his third retirement from basketball. We're talking dominance across the room.

SPEAKER_06 23:05

You're forgetting the eighties.

SPEAKER_07 23:07

Where he kept losing. I mean That doesn't mean that he can't be dominant. First round.

SPEAKER_00 23:15

Couldn't get past the first round.

SPEAKER_07 23:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 23:16

That doesn't mean that he can't be dominant. He was the best player in the NBA.

SPEAKER_02 23:20

Well, let me get to the next question. So who overcame more adversity on and off the court? And we'll start with you guys.

SPEAKER_04 23:33

Indeed, he did. Michael Michael got bored. There wasn't enough adversity, so he went to another sport.

SPEAKER_05 23:43

Sure.

SPEAKER_07 23:44

I think the minor league baseball thing hurts you more than it hurts us, but that's fine if you'll go down.

SPEAKER_06 23:49

Yeah, I don't think so. But like I was wanted to see if I could get one of you to interrupt.

SPEAKER_03 23:53

I thought you would, but you didn't.

SPEAKER_07 23:55

It's your turn. It's your turn, Pastor.

SPEAKER_06 23:58

You got anything else? No, that's all. I don't have anything other than I just want to start the plot. This one is this one is kind of for at least for me. Uh like I know LeBron went through a lot as a kid not having uh dad in his life. Um Michael's dad was shot. And MJ's dad was murdered. Um and so that was a big reason why he went to baseball. Uh, you know, adversity, uh, I think that uh uh he again I've already said it, but losing to Celtics and Pistons multiple times uh against like against Hall of Famers. I believe the Celtics in some of those series uh they started five Hall of Famers. Yeah, those those teams are good. Like, you know, that's that's pretty pretty legit. Um Paris McKeal, Byrd. This category uh to me is kind of like, yeah, uh it could go either way.

SPEAKER_07 24:52

It is on and off the court. So let's talk about on the court for a second. How many teams in NBA history have come back in the finals down 3-1? How many teams? One LeBron James's Cleveland Cavaliers against, in my opinion, the second greatest team of all time, the 2010 Warriors. The first being the 90s Bulls, which your boy was on. So that's sort of my thing is MJ played on the greatest team of all time. LeBron took down the second best team of all time with a lot less help than Steph Curry had over there. You think the 2016-17 Cavs rivaled the the Warriors that year in talent, the 73 and 9 Warriors?

SPEAKER_06 25:32

You know, Kyrie and LeBron had 41 points in in the 40s. I think both they both had at least 40 points uh twice in that series. So, I mean, great player. Like great.

SPEAKER_07 25:45

You bring up the Mavs. So obviously, the Mavs who we all love beat LeBron in 2011. What did LeBron go and do the next two seasons after that? Back to back titles.

SPEAKER_06 25:55

He did, and then he lost another one. He couldn't do a three-peat.

SPEAKER_04 25:59

So I say six rings, you're gonna say the Bulls peaked team. That's why. Okay, so why isn't he in our conversation? Yeah, why isn't Robert Ory who running? We're saying it's not all about ringing. It's not all about rings. We don't care if we have Finals wins. We're not saying that either, but but you have to consider it.

SPEAKER_06 26:17

Yeah, absolutely. To be honest, I think that that's one of the highest considerations. Like, if you're gonna be considered the greatest of all time, you gotta have a good amount of championships, along with other things, but you gotta say that you're the best. Yeah. Uh, several times.

SPEAKER_00 26:33

Rings helped to build that argument, build that resume.

SPEAKER_02 26:35

Do you all have any other final thoughts on who overcame more adversity on off the court?

SPEAKER_07 26:39

I do want to talk about off the court really quick.

SPEAKER_00 26:41

Um have it, because I got some off the court stuff.

SPEAKER_07 26:44

Yeah, I just want to say LeBron James was a teenager. Pastor Brandon's a youth pastor, he knows teenager. He was 17 years old, didn't grow up with a father, kid from a small town in Ohio, Akron, Ohio, and he got deemed the chosen one when he was in high school. He had all the pressure on the world on his shoulders. He didn't even go to college, came straight into the NBA out of high school at age 18, and has done what he's done. He had all the pressure on top of him, and he overcame all that adversity and actually managed to exceed the expectations placed on him, which is something Michael Jordan never had to do. LeBron had to do this in the social media era where everything is scrutinized, everything is recorded, and he has had a near flawless record with all that in the social media area of scrutiny that Michael Jordan also didn't have to play in.

SPEAKER_00 27:40

You know, PJ, you you love when there's there's great strong men in in the house and they lead their families well and yeah, I'm thinking more I'm thinking more about Sam in that regard. When you look in um the culture today, but then you look into like sports culture, like man, a lot of times these like great athletes, these like you know, rise to these high levels, like they they make some mistakes in their life. LeBron James has undoubtedly, like unquestionably, by medium, by people have has been a great husband, has been a great father. So this is almost like maybe a lack of adversity, but you know, a great family doesn't come without challenges. Like he's had to face those adverses while still being very present in his family's life, very present in his community. Um, I think goes if this even gets into like the greatness thing, but we said on and off court adversity. So I think just his upstanding character in the limelight says something as well.

SPEAKER_02 28:40

And with that, I actually think it transitions us perfectly to our last question, and that is who did better with their character, spotlight, and influence as a player. And I'll let you guys both answer, and then we'll go into our closing remarks.

SPEAKER_07 28:54

Who's going first?

SPEAKER_02 28:56

I believe y'all started with the last question on adversity, so you guys can start with this one on spotlight.

SPEAKER_07 29:02

Brandon, I think you just said a lot of it. 23 years under probably the brightest spotlight any athlete has ever been in in world history. No scandals, no divorces, raised his kids. He opened the I Promise school. He used his finances to pour back into his community, not buy and poorly run the Charlotte Hornets and now a NASCAR team. He has had a lot of impact in his community, and he raised his family so much so. I got a picture here. This is LeBron and his son Bronny, who is a little child when LeBron was dominating the league.

SPEAKER_04 29:38

Did you get that off Facebook?

SPEAKER_07 29:39

Oh, this is straight from Google. This is not an edited image. I've got a little boy myself. Yes, absolutely. Bronn was dominating when his son was toddling around the court. And in this Houston Rocket series that I just referenced, in a meaningful playoff minutes, LeBron is throwing playoff lobs to his son on the team with him. That is a legacy of family both on and off the court that I think is a huge part of his greatness.

SPEAKER_00 30:12

I've said my piece before, and that's a great addition to it. Yeah. Question again.

SPEAKER_02 30:18

Who did better with the spotlight influence and character outside of the game?

SPEAKER_04 30:23

Michael does have assorted character issues.

SPEAKER_05 30:28

Yep. Green.

SPEAKER_07 30:31

They may be taking a gamble on this answer.

SPEAKER_06 30:33

But that's uh and like I respect the question, and like we're talking about greatness, and it applies to a lot of life. And um obviously we want to be great in every area of our life. Um when we're talking about sports this like this, though, I'm I'm thinking like on the court, on the field. Um so yeah, I don't, you know, outside of the game as well. One thing I don't know if this applies to the question. I'm just gonna say it because it hadn't been brought up. Jordan uh uh carried a brand and made it global through Nike and Air Jordan. Um, and you know, we talk about the I promise school, all that kind of stuff. Like these are things, some of the things that that he's done. But to me, uh like I'm trying to consider what happens on the court, what happens on the field to make that person the goat.

SPEAKER_05 31:25

Yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_02 31:26

Arguably the question made it in because if you are a great man on the court, there's a platform you're giving, and it's what do you do with that, so to speak. So just give him some context, but I definitely understand where you're coming from.

SPEAKER_06 31:38

Yeah. All right. No notes.

SPEAKER_07 31:43

Here's what you guys just sold me on off the court. I'm gonna concede this to you right now. Michael Jordan, greatest of all time Space Jam movie.

SPEAKER_06 31:54

When you're uh when the universe is at stake and you need one player who you call on, it's MJ. It's true. No, and it's true even in basketball. Like MJ's a finisher. LeBron is not. When they want basketball, I'm talking about Hollywood, I'm talking about a movie.

SPEAKER_07 32:11

They want a 2016 quality script and product of a movie, is all I'm saying.

SPEAKER_06 32:15

Uh yeah. They won a 2016, Kyrie has the ball in his hands. He's the finisher.

SPEAKER_07 32:21

Not so the Kyrie shot's the most famous play from that game? Most iconic play from that game.

SPEAKER_06 32:26

So the block won them the game by James. The block won them the game. The block won them the game.

SPEAKER_07 32:32

The block is what everyone remembers. Blocked by James is the most famous MBA training.

SPEAKER_04 32:36

I'm trying to remember, did he get beat on defense down there and then he had to recover the block cuts?

SPEAKER_07 32:40

Overcoming adversity, baby.

SPEAKER_02 32:42

As we dive into this, let's go ahead and get to our closing statement.

SPEAKER_04 32:44

We're never on topic. I remember right. He had to recover because he got beat at the other end.

SPEAKER_02 32:49

And we're going to start with your side, closing statement. Two minutes, you're going to seal the deal. Why is MJ the greatest?

SPEAKER_04 32:56

MJ's the greatest because he won the most rings, because he had least star players with him. Because it was a tougher era. The physicality, which is a word that just came into existence recently, that was tougher. Um because he played defense, won defensive awards. Um you go and I'll think some more.

SPEAKER_06 33:19

Okay. Uh MJ has 10 scoring titles, five MVPs, six finals MVPs. He won the defensive player of the year, nine first team all defense. Uh, highest career regular season scoring average was 30 points a game. Um, and so LeBron has uh five first team defenses, no defensive player of the year, one scoring title. Um and again, I think I said this already, but Jordan was the greatest two-way apex predator that we've ever seen in the game. The arguments often, like you guys said, you got Scotty, you got these guys around him. LeBron had D Wade, which by the way was the uh best player on their team on the first year that they were together. Uh Chris Bosch, he had Chris Bosch, he had uh Kyrie Irving, Kevin Love, he's had Anthony Davis, like all of these guys. So it's not like Mavs Legend, Anthony Davis, R-I-P-E, Luca. Um, like he's he's had help around him. So I think all of the body of the work, LeBron is a great player, but he is not the greatest of all time. And to be able to be called the greatest of all time, you've got to have a really great amount of titles that you win, and it's not just about finals appearances because the goal is to win. And so I think MJ takes the cake.

SPEAKER_04 34:42

Tougher era. That's what I would go to. Tougher, tougher best player in a tough player in the NBA.

SPEAKER_00 34:54

He is um already inducted into the basketball Hall of Fame. He has um Hall of Fame career in Cleveland, Hall of Fame career in Miami, Hall of Fame career in uh Los Angeles, potentially in a Hall of Fame career wherever he goes next. Wherever you're going, I'm going to, LeBron. Um he has a hole. He's not a Mass fan. He has um again, he he plays. No other player like him has played and dominated in positions one through five. He can play them all, he can guard them all. Um he has single-handedly led his team in the playoffs in every major statistical category, points, rebounds, and assists against teams that have had three plus Hall of Fame players. Um LeBron has just simply been a more dominant player against a more dominant uh field of players. Um, and he's just met expectations, surpassed expectations his entire life, and longevity does go into it. Um, but that's a part of what makes him the goat and what makes him the greatest to ever play the game.

SPEAKER_07 36:05

Here's how I want to close. LeBron James reminds me of someone else I know. You, Pastor Jeff. When I think of your greatness as a pastor, okay. I think about your durability, your versatility, the way you've overcome adversity over the years. I think of the way you've made people around you better. You've you've elevated people around you, given other people the spotlight. And most importantly, I think your greatness is found in the legacy of your children. Your children are alongside you doing it with you. That's for me when I decided LeBron was the GOAT when I saw he's not only still doing it at this level, he's got his kids raised up to this level with him. That's what I think about when I see you and your greatness in ministry. So I just want to say if anyone reminds me of LeBron James, to Pastor Jeff. PJ. Wow.

SPEAKER_02 36:53

One second over. Well, final blessing to make his point. Crafty, um, I will say, very smart, also very honoring.

SPEAKER_04 37:10

Is that spontaneous or did you plan that? Oh, it's absolutely the smart. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 37:16

Here's what I love that we give insight too for everybody who's gonna listen through this podcast. Like, you want to know how thoroughly we will discuss things, even on a theological standpoint, thoroughly. We discuss things thoroughly, we can disagree, we can have different opinions, and we truthfully do have a lot of healthy conflict in our church family and on staff, so it's a fun little insight, even though it's about basketball. It's a fun little insight. But I would love for you guys as we get out of the conversation of basketball, just truly speaking to greatness. How are you each pursuing greatness in your life right now? And that's our last statements, and we'll wrap up this conversation.

SPEAKER_04 37:51

Well, let me I'm gonna just add one thing real quick. So uh you can disagree, but don't be disagreeable. So you just saw disagreements, but we weren't disagreeable. Um, and that's so important. And in today's age, it's almost like you can't even disagree without feelings being hurt, without it being hate speech. Uh it doesn't need to be that way. In the body of Christ, we need to be able to come let us reason together. Uh as iron sharpens iron, that means that there's something rubbing against the blade to make it sharper. So it should be in church life that we're able to disagree but keep a spirit-filled attitude and have fun with it. There's lots of laughter here today, in spite of the fact that we're convinced that what we think is right. And so I just want to throw out real strength comes when you can disagree but not be disagreeable. And that's important. That'll help your marriage, that'll help your family. And so when you sense that there's something coming into it that's going to make it disagreeable, take a second and pray, or say something funny, or have a verbal blunder. But but do something so that it doesn't become a sinful issue. It doesn't have to be. You can have disagreements without sin being a part. I just want to get that in there.

SPEAKER_02 39:02

Great. So pursuing greatness in your own space, Sam, how are you pursuing greatness?

SPEAKER_07 39:08

That's a great question. Um, I mean, I think I do think greatness is defined by the success of those around me. So I think if I'm living a life of greatness, my wife is living a better life, my son and my future kids are living a better life, my friends, my colleagues at work, I want to be one who elevates um elevates those around me and um continually grows in the things that I'm doing. I want to not stay stagnant, always try and get better. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:42

Pursuing greatness um my life right now. I mean yeah, uh kind of like what Sam said, you know, we're at an age in our life and a stage like a younger stage in ministry where, you know, man, I I wanna surround myself with some some guys that have had great impact uh in ministry, some successful longevity in in ministry. Like I wanna be able to learn from y'all. So thankful for y'all to, you know, to be able to stand on y'all shoulders and just be able to go further in places that I will never be able to because of your faithfulness, your obedience, your willingness to pass down your wisdom. So I want to surround myself with um wise counsel, surround myself with um guys that have done it, you know, before me and done it longer, um, because all of that is gonna impact my ministry now. All of that is gonna impact uh the husband I can be, all of that's gonna impact the soon-to-be father I'm about to be. Um so pursuing greatness in my life means that I have people that I can learn from, guys like Sam that I can run this race with, and then um, you know, because it's gonna impact the youth ministry, my marriage, and my family.

SPEAKER_02 40:56

Amazing. Pastor Jeff?

SPEAKER_04 40:57

Well, I have enjoyed this spirited and fun interaction with spiritual sons. Uh uh when God gave me the call when I was 53 and gave me the next 40 years of my life, greatness for me will be obeying what he called me to do and finish it well. Finishing well is becoming harder and harder, it seems like, in in um ministry. But I want to finish well and I want to leave a legacy, and that'd be greatness for me as well. Most of all, greatness is being an honorable son to my heavenly father. So not to spiritualize it too much, but I really do think about um am I pleasing my father? And I'll be sure I do that.

SPEAKER_06 41:36

So well, uh Pastor Brandon, I I think a lot of the same it's it's for the same for me, is it uh just trying to surround myself and be in community with uh especially other men that can make me better, you know? Um so uh a better leader, a better husband, and better father, and I'm really like focusing in especially on being a great husband and a great father. Um I fail a lot at it, uh, but I feel like that that's the pursuit that I'm really trying to get better at so that I can like even what I talked about earlier, like uh elevate the people around me, make them better uh when it's time for me to leave this earth as well. So like that's the that's my main focus right now. And I um God's continually molding me and showing me where I do fail. Um, and I'm trying to pursue just being great all around in those areas.

SPEAKER_02 42:28

Yeah, amazing. Well, thank you so much for bringing your debate to this conversation and for speaking greatness um over the people listening about sharing how you're pursuing greatness in your own life and inspiring them to do so for themselves. It may not be the next LeBron James, but they people need to someone. Um and who won today? We'll let all the listeners decide. Um related Baltimore.

SPEAKER_06 42:54

Like, share, comments.

SPEAKER_02 42:55

Yeah, you can totally vote on social media. I would love that. That'd be hilarious. But anyway, that's all we have today. Hope you learned a lot about how to grow in greatness in your own space. Thank you again for your time today and for debating so well and having so much fun. That's it for me. You ready to close out?

SPEAKER_04 43:08

Here we go, everybody. Peace out.