Self-Care for Autistic Entrepreneurs and Coping with Autistic Burnout with Kelly Redmon Loo

In this week’s episode I’m delighted to introduce you to Kelly Redmon Loo, a Licensed Independent Clinical Social Worker (LICSW) specializing in Autism.

We dive into how Kelly developed her passion for working with autistic clients, as well as her journey towards being diagnosed as AuDHD (autism and ADHD). We’ll talk about masking and unmasking, how autism, particularly in women, often goes undiagnosed or misdiagnosed due to its unique manifestations.

Kelly also shares insights on why neurodivergent individuals may feel 'unemployable', how entrepreneurship can be a liberating path for many and how she overcomes some of the challenges that come with being a neurodivergent entrepreneur.

We’ll also explore the nuances of occupational versus autistic burnout, and how you can take care of yourself if you’re experiencing autistic burnout.

And if you’re wondering if you might be on the spectrum, Kelly offers practical advice on next steps, including seeking a formal diagnosis or finding peace in self-diagnosis

Kelly is the founder and owner of Seven Seas Counseling, an innovative online therapy practice where she focuses on providing support to autistic adults, individuals dealing with chronic pain, and those facing various illnesses.

Her expertise extends to assessments and late diagnoses of autism, where she assists clients in navigating the complexities of a late diagnosis and collaborates with them to create personalized lives that cater to their unique needs. Kelly is dedicated to helping individuals unmask, discover their authentic paths, and fulfill their potential.

In addition to her clinical work, Kelly plays a vital role in the professional development of therapists. She offers training and clinical supervision to those eager to expand their knowledge in working with autistic adults, contributing to the growth of the therapeutic community.

She also  runs an online autistic women's+ support group and is in the process of developing a group curriculum centered around autistic burnout.

Currently residing in Arlington, Va, Kelly enjoys a fulfilling personal life in the company of her husband, Siberian cat- Iquitos, and four rescue guinea pigs. She is an active member and advocate of online chronic illness/pain communities and raises awareness of several rare chronic conditions that often overlap with autism. Her interests beyond her work include traveling, being near the ocean whenever she can, and fostering animals.

She is Audhd herself (autism + ADHD) and her current special interests include sewing, memoir writing, and going new places with her husband and their cat.

Whether you're neurodivergent, wondering if you’re neurodivergent,  know someone who is, or are simply here to learn, this episode is packed with eye-opening perspectives and valuable takeaways.

Be sure to check out the episode webpage for an extensive list of resources from this episode!

Find Kelly online:

Website: https://www.sevenseascounseling.com/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seven_seas_counseling/

Connect with your host, Dr. Melissa Parks, elsewhere:

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melissacparks/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/melissaparksphd

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/melissaparksphd/

Website: https://melissaparks.com/

Schedule a free 30 min. discovery call with Melissa to see if coaching with her would be a good fit: https://melissaparks.com/free-consultation-call/

If you’d like additional su

Transcript

 Melissa  

Hi, Kelly, thanks so much for coming on the show today.

Kelly  

Thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be here. 

Melissa  

Yeah, we have been coordinating behind the scenes for a while to get like, get here today. So I feel like just like I want to celebrate like we did it. We're here.

Kelly  

Stars have aligned. 

Melissa  

Yes, exactly.

Kelly  

I'm glad we came back to it and made sure that it happened, because I think it's a really important conversation. And hopefully, hopefully will resonate with a lot of your, the clients that you work with, and the people that find this podcast 

Melissa  

Yeah, I have to tell you, I already have a couple of clients who I told them, like, I'm going to be recording this at some point. And I'll sit I'll share it with you. So yeah, we've already got a list of listeners who are eager to hear this, this conversation 

Kelly  

I did too. My client, my patients are like did it come out yet? Did it come out? Yeah. And I'm like, No.

Melissa  

Soon! Well, tell us what let's let's dive in. I always like to kind of, you know, get our feet wet a bit. And just, I already shared with people kind of your your more official bio, but I'd love to hear just more about how did you get interested in working with clients with autism and working with autistic women? What's your what's your story there?

Kelly  

Yes, so I've always worked with autistic individuals. Even as far back as high school, I would do volunteering with equine therapy. And then, you know, of course, through graduate school, and all of that, and my training. And when I was in private practice, when I was living in the Virgin Islands, I was actually working with a neuro psychologist, and we were mostly working with autistic kids diagnosing and doing therapy, and we were also running social groups. And the, it was really the first time that I started to work intimately with with, you know, autism, and I remember going to the psychologist and I said, you know, I'm really hesitant to to work with the clients on some of this stuff around social things. I don't want to offend them. I don't, I don't want to, you know, make them feel embarrassed. And I will, I'll never forget. She said, Oh, don't worry, they won't feel embarrassed. They won't feel any shame. Because they don't feel emotions like we do. And yeah, my eyes get really big there. I instantly said that doesn't sit right. I don't like that at all. That feels very wrong. But she was the expert. And so I never, ever did therapy in a way that would ever make a client feel embarrassed or anything. But I remember that not feeling right. So, you know, I continued, I continued on that path working with her we did really good work, the work that they do now with autistic kids is completely different than than what we were doing even 12 years ago, which is amazing. Because it's, you know, it needed to change. But my, my autism, work began to shift when I moved back to the states. And I was a disability coordinator at a college and I was working with pretty smart college kids, these kids were doing computer science and engineering. And one of my colleagues was also autistic. He was a biology professor. And I was really drawn to him. And so him and I would talk a lot and he was even like, I think you might be on the spectrum. And I said, No, no, no, I'm no, I'm just ADHD. But him and I worked together and we developed the social club for the autistic students, and developed this space where they could come in and connect. And, and just kind of unmask and get away from the demands of the world. And that was amazing seeing these students just come out of their shells, and I could see them become their authentic selves. And I could see them light up and it actually helped them do better in their studies. And then I had this idea, let's do a sensory room. So I started to get really excited about working with autism. And it was also around that time that I met my now husband, who, he gave me permission. He said, Yes, you can share that I'm autistic, but at the time, neither of us knew. And there were some things in the relationship where he would say things and I go whoa, why would someone say that? And a friend of mine said, I think when so when you're really close to someone who's autistic, you don't tend to see things in the same way. So I wasn't seeing things through that lens, even though I was working with autism. And once I had that lens to look through, I was like, Oh, I think he is autistic. And then things really started to change the and in order for our relationship to work we both had to embrace that and understand what that meant. And, you know, read a lot of books and worked on our communication. And so being a therapist, I thought, well, I want to do this with clients, I want to work with, you know, autistic individuals, I want to help them with, you know, career things, I want to help them with communication with their partners with their friends, any social difficulties. And so I was doing that work with men. And I also have a niche of, of chronic pain. And so on the other side, I had these women who were coming to me in chronic pain. And with them, I was realizing that there were some trends there that nobody was really talking about on a big picture. And they all had different diagnoses. Some of some of them were, but there were trends, right, there was ADHD, some bipolar, OCD, borderline personality disorder, depression, anxiety. And what I was seeing was exhaustion, and burnout, and trouble in relationship. And it paused me it made me pause, wait a minute, what, what is happening here? And so I started reading whatever I could find. And this was just a few years ago, this was just 2018. Not a decade ago like this. What is this? Barely six years ago, and there wasn't a lot of material out there. But I thought feels like autism, it feels but it doesn't look the same. It's very, very different. There was only a handful of books, there were for some blogs, a few YouTube channels. But I began, I was very interested in how autism was presenting in a very different way than I was trained, very different from the neuropsychologist that said, they don't feel emotions the way that we do, they don't feel empathy. The complete opposite. autistic individuals feel so much emotion, so much empathy, but the communication is different. So, in 2020, the pandemic hit, you know, everybody's life obviously changed a lot. But my practice started to change significantly. And the clients that I was seeing, they actually began to thrive during the pandemic, which is interesting, because they were able to drop some of the demands, they were able to stop the long commutes stop the sensory assaults that can happen in an office environment. And it allowed their nervous system to rest and reset. And a big shift really happened for those people. And then along came Tik Tok and Tik Tok was no longer a app for middle school dancers. Yeah, you know, adults got on Tik Tok. I was on Tik Tok and Tik Tok created this space for people could share their lived experiences. And all of these things started popping up on my for you page about neurodiversity. And of course I was digging into it totally changed my algorithm. And people started questioning is this autism? is this ADHD? You know, ton of people were diagnosed with with ADHD during this time too. And people found me through that because I was working with autism just kind of very different than it is right now. So yeah, I just realized everything that I learned about it was wrong. And I had to go back and relearn everything. And I was also angry that there wasn't any good resources out about this. And it you know, like it's not a mental disorder it's just a different you just have a different brain and a different nervous system. And when I began that work and saw how it positively you know, of course changed my life that I talked about, but in my clients just changing their lives for the better it just it lit a fire inside of me. You can probably see me light up right now like I'm so I absolutely love it.

Melissa Parks  

Yeah, wow. Oh, wow. Okay, I have so many questions as well as, like when people say the first thing, I'm like, ooh I want to ask this and this and we only have an hour.  Because I'm so passionate about the topic, too, and I'm not the, I haven't dove into it in the same way you have, although I'm kind of heading in that direction. You know, we've had conversations about just how kind of some of the resources I'm exploring too. And, you know, as, as a someone who's trained as a mental health professional, I think, I've always had a problem with you know, the diagnoses and how patients and clients get talked about right about like, there's something wrong with them. And so that's why like, the, like neurodiversity lens to me is so exciting. And it's, yeah, I just, I love it. And I love how empowering it can be to so many of these people to discover that you're just you're differently wired. Like, that's okay. Nothing's wrong with you. Nothing's wrong with Yeah, yeah, 

Kelly  

You can drop that you can drop that narrative. You can drop the shame, and see yourself through a lens that is authentic, and not just, that's life changing. And that makes me so excited about the work that I do.

Melissa  

So I have to tell you, though, that I didn't, I didn't immediately, like shift into that thinking of like, oh, neurodiversity is fantastic. Because for me a few years ago... I've focused on working with people who are highly sensitive for several years. It's kind of like, just who's showed up at my practice. And it's been kind of become an area of expertise. And a few years ago, a fellow therapist told me like, Hey, have you heard about this conversations happening about how high sensitivity might actually be undiagnosed autism? And my instant reaction was no way like, don't try telling me that these people I know, are autistic, like autism, like there's so much stigma around it. Saying you're highly sensitive has been really empowering for people. And I just kind of like, read a couple articles and shut it down. I was like, No, I'm not. I'm not going there. I'm curious to know, like, have you had clients who have had similar reactions to that of like discovering they're autistic or do you feel like things  have changed now?

Kelly  

Things are definitely starting to change now. But yes, I do have clients that initially do respond in that way. It's kind of interesting, because a lot of the clients that I've had for a long time have been with me for over five years. Most of them are autistic. Wow, I didn't see it. They didn't see it. And we're just now starting to see it. And so those weren't the individuals that came to me seeking a diagnosis. But the diagnosis itself has been life changing for them. But it was a hard process to get to that point where we were they were they could embrace that being a positive part of their life. Because they, you know, there's so many stereotypes are like, I'm not like Rain Man. Like, of course, you're not. That's not what autism looks like, you know, all the time. So it does. But yeah, people are really hesitant. I've had some clients completely shut it down. And that's fine. I have some clients that will say, that might be the case. But can we not use that label? And that's fine as well. Yeah, as long as they're able to look at themselves through a lens that makes sense for them. But yeah, 1,000% That's, that's a lot of people's knee jerk reaction is no, or even when people tell them like, Oh, I'm autistic, and people say no, no, no. Like you said, no, they're highly sensitive. That's not you.

Melissa  

Well, and like your, your former colleague said, like autistic people don't feel emotions. So I'm like, well, how can they be highly sensitive, then, right? Because it was all of my training told me that too. It's like, oh, no, like, I actually, yeah, I had it a psychiatrist told me once, like, there's no way you could be autistic because you the way you talk about like your childhood, like, you just feel emotions really deeply. I'm like, everything I've read about autistic women especially kind of tells me that that what you're saying is wrong. So yeah. Yeah, for me a big. So so I've been really like kind of exploring and exploring all of this because I've had so many of clients. so many of those highly sensitive people come to me and often because of Tik Tok saying like, Hey, I'm, I'm really identifying with this content. I'm really questioning, you know, could I be autistic? And so that's been one reason kind of motivation for me to explore. And then also for kind of, I've started realizing, like, Hey, I identify with some of this stuff, too. And for me a big turning point. was actually, a very funny thing. It was reading a romance novel, The Heart Principle. I don't know if that's one that you've read, if you know about.

Kelly  

I'll have to write that down.

Melissa  

Write it down. It was the first time I'd heard about the concept of masking. And the the the main character goes to therapy gets diagnosed with...sorry to ruin it for anybody...but I didn't pick it up because I because it was about an autistic woman that just ended up someone on on Instagram had recommended I was looking for a light read. And, and it's definitely a romance novel. So keep that in mind. But it's it's fantastic, the way that she talks about masking and her process of discovering that like, things that she had been covering up about herself that she didn't even realize she was covering up about herself. Yeah. So it's what you can be like hiding yourself from yourself?

Kelly  

And that's what what I was doing because I myself am also autistic. And how am I an autism? How am I autistic, and diagnosing people? And I don't know it? Yeah. Right. Like, that's a lot of layers of masking. So much masking that it's, it's, it's really interesting.

Melissa  

Yeah. What's been helpful for you to like, peel back some of those layers and and to yeah for your own discovery, like kind of self, I don't know if self diagnosis or just getting a diagnosis, like what that process has been like?

Kelly  

Well, it's been a journey. So many people, so many autistic people, throughout my adult life in the last couple years, said, I think you might be on the spectrum. And I'm like, No, I'm just ADHD. And there's a lot of overlap between ADHD and autism. And you can have both, and it's very common to have both. Yeah. And for me, I was diagnosed with ADHD in grad school. So I didn't know that I had ADHD until then. And that was life changing. I was ready to struggle bus hard. In grad school, you know, I came into grad school. This is a little embarrassing, but I, I think it's important, but I came into grad school on probation. And they said, You need to have this certain grade point, and I thought, I don't know, do it. And one of my first semesters, professors said, You cannot come back to my class until you make an appointment with the counseling center to be, you know, assessed for ADHD. And I thought, what was this guy? Like? Yeah, okay. Take this class. And so I did it. And within 15 minutes, the psychiatrist was like, you're definitely ADHD. He gave me medication. And it was life changing. I almost graduated grad school with a 4.0 and for the first time in my life felt smart. Because I could access parts of my brain, I could, I could understand, you know, executive functioning and how I didn't have much of it and what I could do, and there's, you know, like I said, a lot of overlap with that. And a lot of people will even joke and say, autism, or sorry, ADHD, is autism's little chaotic little brother, sister. And the, I'm doing these as I'm doing these assessments with clients years later, decades, I don't want to age myself, but decades later than grad school. You know, I'm hearing all of these lived experiences with my clients, and they're being so vulnerable with me. And it's the little subtle things that are coming up. And you know, more of what than what's showing up on Tik Tok and the little things that kept adding up for me over time. But I kept saying, Oh, no, no, that's not me. And then I did a book club. And we read the new book called Unmasking Autism, which I know Melissa, I recommend that book so so much to colleagues. It's very good. By Devon Price and our first book club meeting that I had with my clients. I said, guys, I think I might be autistic. And they...I was very nervous to do that, of course, because as a therapist, you're not really they teach us not to self disclose. I think we're thankfully moving away from that a little bit in therapy. And for myself and my clients that I work with, it was actually a very good thing and it allowed us to process masking further. And a lot. They all laughed and they all said in their own way, of course you are and I'm like, you guys know I'm diagnosing you, but they saw themselves in me, and one of the reasons why I couldn't see the autism is because when my ADHD isn't medicated, the ADHD takes over. And it it almost overshadowed the autism because my brain, I'm not a spreadsheet person. And I always looked at autism, it being like, you gotta like excel, and you need to, you know, be detail oriented. And remember facts. Well, my ADHD doesn't allow me to do things like that. But when I take my medication, Oh, I like things to be in graphs and very color coded and organized. So yeah, and, you know, there's, there's also a piece of it too. And I want to bring this up, because I think this happens for a lot of people. And, for me, it was realizing that I was looking at myself through this, this, the social part of myself through the lens of alcohol. And I started using alcohol and marijuana when I was in high school, to, to be social. And I continued with that through college, and then in grad school, and I moved to the Caribbean, which is a place where, you know, drinking is acceptable, and that's what you do, and it's happy hour all the time, and you don't not drink unless you're on antibiotics, you know, so it was it was a place where I could do that. And I was always defined as the funny person and the class clown and a person that people wanted to be around, and I had so many friends. And but when I wasn't drinking, I wasn't comfortable with social situations. Yeah, I would, I didn't have a lot of situations in the Caribbean that were social that didn't include that. Because it's so much a part of that expat culture there. And I, you know, I just I had when I moved back to the States, I thought that my sensory overwhelmed was because I lived in the islands. And there just wasn't a lot to overwhelm. And so I was this, the social situations were hard for me, I was having a lot of anxiety. And I think that using alcohol was just a social lubricant for me, and it made me I've also heard people with autism say that when they drink, it actually energizes them. And that's what it did for me. And I became this still myself, but like, a very animated part of myself a different version. And without the alcohol, I'm like, What do I do with my hands? Where do I look? How do I how do I exist in this space with other people? Which now I know. So, yeah, it really, really makes a difference. And I took all the autism assessments. You know, years ago, I've taken them many times, and I was scoring right on the line, but not autistic. Yeah. And when I dropped that lens of looking at my social life through alcohol, oh, those scores jumped up quite a bit. They were completely different.

Melissa  

Yeah. Wow, wow. And I told you that when you when you told me that before this interview, and I had the same experience in Spain and mean, in Europe, like alcohol is just completely different in than in the US. And I wouldn't say for better or for worse, but it's true that you can get into a habit of drinking frequently in social situations, without kind of even thinking twice about it. And I relate a lot to what you're saying of being in those situations without alcohol. And it's like, yeah, where do people put their hands? Like, why do I have these arms? But I always thought I was somebody who was shy, I was like, I was shy, and then I grew out of it. But I'm like, I don't think I grew up in that I just got a really good mask. And yeah, the alcohol, that that helped as well throughout, like, those years and after high school. Yeah, it's wild. It's it's what you had, you had mentioned that in that talk you did in the therapist community in the LIT Community about taking the those questionnaires again, after learning more about unmasking and reading that book, and I I've taken some of those questionnaires a few different times over the past year or so. And it's been interesting to watch my score, like creep up. Because yeah, for me, a big turning point was, I'm writing a book about my time abroad, and there's just a little part like where I go into like, talking about my childhood, but I went back and read that chapter and I was like, Oh my God. This does not sound like I always thought I had anxiety my whole life and I think there's definitely anxiety. But like, this is more than anxiety. Like, this is somebody who is really struggling like with the world and the world not being made for them, and over stimulation. And so that was like, but not everybody does that. Right? Like, it's hard to go back and like, think about what was my, what was my childhood, like, you know, how to experience the world? How was eye contact from for me, like back when I was a kid?

 Kelly  

Yeah, I don't know. I can't remember those things. And you also think about special interests with autism being dinosaurs and sciency thing, right? But for girls, it's bands. I'm going to date myself again, but New Kids on the Block. Yeah, horses, I loved horses. I rode horses. But that was socially acceptable for me to put all of my energy into horses and talk about them all the time. Have a room covered in horses and New Kids on the Block. And looking back I'm like, oh, that that was my special interest. Yeah. And most of my friends that were also riding horses are I know, I still talked to one of the girls even today. And she's like, I think I'm autistic as well. Like, we were probably all neurodiverse Yeah. And so we get together just share special interests. But you don't. I wasn't looking at childhood that way. Yeah.

Melissa  

No, no, yeah, cause it's not like you said it's not part of the stereotype of what autism looks like. One thing that I collected I did have a time where I collected rocks, but I never got a rock tumbler so I switched to something else. Reading I've heard a lot about her reading can be a special interest and but there are lots of kids who love reading. Probably not all kids are like like me. I like memorized all the titles and numbers of the Babysitter's Club books and love to like tell people?

Kelly  

Yes. Did you all go under the covers with a flashlight?

Melissa  

I don't know. But I tried to start my own baby sitters club. I was like, I'm gonna recreate this in my life. I was eight. Who was gonna hire me? But yeah. 

Kelly  

I wish I had met you back then. I think we would have been best friends. 

Melissa  

Yeah, I've been because I definitely had neurodiverse friends looking back, they probably were but I also tried so hard to fit in with the kids that were probably neurotypical or at least highly masking trying to be the cool kids. Yeah, yeah. It's so like, gosh, I could I could reflect on this with you for like, I do want to mention something. Another special interest that might be interesting to people listening that I've heard, especially with girls is a special interest being like a crush like another person or like another person that they like, want to be best friends with or something? Like, oh, yeah, I can. I can remember some times like that 

Kelly  

It becomes your whole world. Yeah. Then you don't know how to flirt with them. You don't know if they like you back, you can't read the social situation.

Melissa  

And it creeps people out if you've become obsessed with them too. 

Kelly  

Right?

Melissa  

When you talked about how therapists like often, studying mental health like can be a special interest that like hit so hard with me. Because I think so many people wouldn't think that a therapist, you could be autistic and be a therapist. But I know you that's I'm sure there's so many therapists out there who many who know many who don't know.

Kelly  

Yeah, because it's interesting. The We, of course, we want to study psychology and understand people's behavior. It's fascinating why people do the things that they do. My husband who is now he's in tech, he said he wanted to you started out wanting to do music therapy, because he thought it was really interesting how people behaved in the world. And to myself, I'm thinking, Oh, wow, that's interesting, because I never would have thought he would I don't see him as a therapist. He's a techy guy. So yeah, we I really, and I don't have a problem, identifying emotions. But I've also been studying this for decades, even even before college, you know, in those stories we read and trying to understand why people do what they do and trying to calculate what emotions are and yeah, there's I think there there are a lot of therapists that just don't don't know and maybe they they never will, but we are out there I think in high numbers 

Melissa  

I think so. Yeah. Because I do think that drive to understand people and to like have empathy for people who maybe feel like an outsider or feel something's wrong with them like, yeah, a lot of people who grow up as autistic, I think can really have those. Those, those strengths 

Kelly  

Yeah, yes, we feel so much all the time, I have so much empathy for people. That's why a lot of actually go into helping careers, you know, a lot of doctors, a lot of medical professional roles, a lot of social workers, you know, they're there's, I'm drawing a blank on other professions, but they're those fields, it's not just tech, you know, it's it is that being professions is what because we genuinely care about people for, you know, male doctors that might present in the traditional aspect or how we used to think about autism, it is a way for them to, you know, express how they care, you know, they can do this, they can cure illness, they can help people feel better with, you know, how their brain works, how they think outside the box. So, we I've never met an autistic person that didn't feel emotion. Yeah, ever. That was really bad advice that I got. Yeah, in 2011. She also wasn't that long ago.

Melissa  

Not at all. No, no, but that what you're saying really resonates with me. And the clients I've worked with way either have later they've gotten diagnosed or self diagnosed. And, and also, yeah, just my, my lived experience to it makes so much sense. What about entrepreneurship? Do you think that there are a lot of people who are artistic, who kind of are interested in being entrepreneurs?

Kelly  

Yes, absolutely. Without a doubt. With that answer, and actually, a lot of my clients, when we do the work to, you know, do the assessment, we do the work of unmasking, they figure out who they truly are, they leave their big jobs, corporations, you know, they leave Wall Street, they leave Silicon Valley, they, they leave, and they, you know, are the corporate law firms where they're, you know, so burnt out, and they're, you know, making a lot of money, but they, they, they realize I can't do this anymore, and they follow their, really their passions, and they become entrepreneurs. And they, because what neurodiverse people are really good at is thinking outside the box. And sometimes that's not a great mix in a corporation, you know, they they really want you to think a certain way, behave a certain way, communicate a certain way. And I think that, that we also and typically, like tech savvy people have this, like creative brilliance of, you know, in the artists that I work with, to the stuff that they create, I'm just, it's inspiring. And it can be kind of considered this the superpower, right, and, and creating new apps that are helping people. And yeah, just putting really good things out in the world. And if we think about all of the really amazing inventions that have been developed over the course of people being in the world, most likely those individuals were autistic, you know, electricity. The big things out there, the car, the, you know, all of the things the internet had to be someone thinking differently and going, Oh, how does that work? How can I do that differently? But along with those superpowers, we also have a lot of struggles and we struggle daily. And when you're in that corporate world, or you're working, you know, for someone else, it can be difficult because we're struggling with executive functioning we're struggling with you know, and that that that includes time management, organization, processing information, getting started on attacks, demand avoidance. Demand avoidance is huge with neurodiversity. If someone tells me to do something, they instantly do not want to do it. So if someone is always telling you where to be at when it just doesn't work out for a lot of people, and then you have the also difficulty with transitioning to the next task, things moving at a fast pace, and it doesn't really work out. So being an entrepreneur, I think, allows individuals to kind of capitalize on their strengths, while accommodating, their weaknesses.. And we do really well in our own space, I do really well on space and making my own rules that we understand. You know, a lot of rules I don't understand, if I don't understand it, it's really hard for me to do it. And I will and I'll be respectful, but it's it's like, like grinding gears of me being like, Oh, I don't wanna that's not what I want to do. So, yeah, I think when we can accommodate those needs, and we don't, at least for myself, I can accommodate all of my, my neurodiverse needs and the needs that I need. Have for my physical disabilities and chronic pain and stuff. I don't have to justify them to a team of HR people. Yeah, I can just sit in a recliner, have the lights low, not have any disruptions and do my therapy? I don't need to meet with a team about that. So yeah, I think I think that that is one of the one of the biggest reasons why people find themselves in the entrepreneur space. And I often joke, actually a client of mine, actually, we joke back and forth about we're not employable, we are not employable people. We were very just people, things need to be just in the world. Yes, things need to be fair. And when I worked as a disability coordinator, it was things were not fair people did not want to accommodate. And I would it was not fun for me or for other people to be working against that resistance. Yeah. And so it just there's a better flow. I think, at least for myself, personally working in my own space, that if I'm passionate about something, I can follow through with that till my heart is desired. And I don't have to worry about red tape or understanding politics. I never understand politics in an office. I don't. And I get in trouble. And I don't mean to and the relationships and how people are fake. You're nodding your head. 

Melissa  

I'm nodding a lot. Yes. Thank you for pointing that out. Because listeners won't know that I am. So much of this resonates with me. And like clients I've worked with. I struggle sometimes to help clients who are working in corporate environments, because that yeah, they tell me things that are going on. And I'm like, leave. Like, why are you working there? It's terrible for your mental health. Yes. Not everybody's ready to jump into entrepreneurship. But yeah, I've definitely found so much of what you're saying. For a long time, I thought I was unemployable too. And I was like, I have a PhD. This is really embarrassing, like, but I don't think I can have a boss anymore. And I feel like I like get migraines when I go into offices, and I'm just drained. Like, I feel like I can't work the next day because I this day was took so much out of me.

Melissa Parks  

Which is why when the pandemic hit people were like, Oh, I feel so much better. And that I don't know if you've seen this as well. But a lot of people actually shifted to being an entrepreneur during that time when when COVID first happened.

Melissa  

Yeah, yeah, I've definitely seen that. Yes, that the yeah shook things up in some way. I've also seen with people with you know, some companies require people to go back into the office, I think that's also been a shift for people of saying like, I this is too good for me to let go of.

Kelly  

I can't do that I can't, I can't mask to that level anymore. You know, I can't and to do a long commute to for some people I live in the in the DC area and to do an hour commute on the Metro is a takes a lot out of people. And then they have to go and do rotations in the you know, they have these high executive jobs and they can do such a better job from their, their house or their laptop. Yes, yeah, yeah. And the company gets more out of them. But yeah, I do really like when people have the opportunity and I know sometimes it's a privilege but to explore that entrepreneurship, because chances are people probably haven't seen things the way that you see them, you know, thinking outside of the box in that way. Yeah, there's so many rewards with that. 

Melissa  

Yeah, absolutely. What do you notice? With that, because I do think like, some of the stuff you're talking about, that people struggle with in corporate environments, like executive functioning, or demand avoidance, like, you know, even as an entrepreneur, you have demands, right? Like, you're I think about it was like, you're like, Yeah, I mean, you're like, in my case, like, my clients are kind of my customers, right? I need to, you know, make sure that they're, they're doing they're like my boss, in a certain sense. And what I see is that some people struggle with entrepreneurship, because of those kinds of, of challenges, like, anything like personally, that you've noticed helps you or you've noticed for your clients helps them? 

Kelly  

Oh I'm in that space right now, where I'm constantly struggling with demand avoidance, because even though I'm very passionate about what I do, there are days when a part of my brain will just make me sit on the couch until two minutes before the therapy session. And so there's a time management aspect to that, and I still show up, and I'm the best therapist be, but there's this, I don't want a part of my brain that can get really loud at times. And I also know this, um, you know, I struggle with the executive functioning and getting started with tasks. And transitioning is a big thing for me. People always say, Well, if you have a break in between clients, do some administrative work, and I'm like, I can't do that transition. That is that that's two different people. That's Kelly that is focused and doing, you know, paperwork, and Kelly that is connecting people. Yeah, so I've had to learn it. It's been a bumpy journey. And it's I'm still learning and I don't know everything, and it changes every day. But it's learning how I work the best how I want to, you know, the called block time block. 

Melissa  

Oh, where you block off time?

Kelly  

I'm gonna do admin. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. You're not switching back and forth. Yeah, too much. I figured out when my ideal hours are to be conducting sessions. I'm not a great like late afternoon person. So I like to do my sessions in the morning, you know, and I like to be done by three. Yeah, so I've been able to personalize that. And also with the LIT community, being able to connect with other therapists being able to have the co working space, you know, like body doubling, I mean, someone on zoom that you're working with, and they're working on their own stuff, help. But every day, it's a school, and I try to be creative with it. Because of the ADHD piece, too, like I my brain responds to dopamine hits. So I'm trying to also make it fun and like a game, you know, maybe if I get this brand new whiteboard, I'll do my work. Yes. And I will for a week, but then I have to find something else. So it's a constant struggle. It's something that I work with my therapist on all the time. Yeah. So it's, I think it changes but at least in that entrepreneur space, you have to have the room to be curious and explore what's gonna work and what's not gonna work. Yeah, 

Melissa  

yeah, it's so much more flexible, right. But I appreciate you saying that it's a bumpy journey, because I think so often now, especially with social media, like entrepreneurship gets glamorized, too. So I wouldn't want anybody listening to this. Well, either who's considering entrepreneurship or like is in the midst of entrepreneurship and those ups and downs and it's like, Wait, like, this isn't all like magical and smooth for me? What's What am I doing wrong?

Kelly  

Yeah, the, the trendy Day in the Life's now that they have on Tik Tok and Instagram. It's like, so glamorous. And I really do want to make one about what that's like. Yeah, it is a pain. But even with all that said, I wouldn't change it for the world. Because as a whole, that's what works for me. And that's where I can use my best self and do my best work. Yeah, but it is it is a struggle when you don't have those external demands or, you know, scaffolding there to hold you accountable to things. Nobody's checking that I did my therapy notes, so it's hard to write those.

Melissa  

yeah, yes. So even though it feels really nice to that person peering over your shoulder and telling you what to do like Like, there is like a perk to it as well.

Kelly  

Yeah, absolutely.

Melissa  

Well, let's talk about that. You know, another topic we really wanted to talk about in today's interview was autistic burnout. What is autistic burnout? And how is it different from burnout that we usually hear about 

Kelly  

So there definitely is a, there's a difference. With all you hear, because you hear people say all the time, I'm in burnout. And typically what they mean is they're in occupational burnout. Yeah. And that can be very different from autistic burnout or they're burnout, because, you know, they have kids, and it's very demanding. Okay, so autistic burnout is a physical, psychological, and a sensory state. That, like, that's how I would describe it. So, what the New York Times did a great article on this 

Melissa  

I'm gonna link to that in the show notes. You shared it with me. Good. Yeah.

Kelly  

Yeah. And, and it comes from having to one of the factors is having to mask all the time. And that's not masking just in, you know, a work environment, but that's masking with friends, that's maybe masking with your partner. And so you're showing up in the world everywhere, and you're having to be maybe not a different person, I think that that's too strong, but you're having to show up in ways that maybe are really difficult for you. You know, you mentioned having migraines going into the office, like if you're going into a place all the time, that's an assault on your nervous system in a sensory way. Over time, that's going to lead to burnout. And our nervous system can only take so much. And so the individuals that I see that come to me for assessments and we determine they are autistic, most of them, I would say probably 90% of them are also in autistic burnout. And when I tell them about autistic burnout, they a lot of them will break down and say, oh my gosh, that's me. That's absolutely me. And some of the ways that you can recognize it is your sensory issues. You know, we all have our own sensory stuff. And it's good to figure out what your sensory issues are. With you know, what, texture things, you know, what can you wear, what can you not wear, you like background noise, that sort of thing. But your your sensory issues are heightened. So what happens in burnout is our window of tolerance of things that we can generally tolerate becomes really small. And so lights are browder, brighter, noises are louder, conversations are harder, it gets harder and harder to mask. You You notice that maybe you you're exhausted quicker. Going to a social function might wear you out faster as a burnout person than not. Also your emotional state, you might be more prone to depression to depression and depressive episodes, or anxiety. I know my anxiety, I'm not typically an anxious person, but my anxiety will amp right on up if I'm burnout, because my nervous system is fried. And I can feel that on an internal basis. Like things aren't right. And when you you can't notice that and you have to keep pushing through it. Keep going to a job keep doing this keep doing that keep showing up with all these obligations. They're finding they actually just started studying autistic burnout, which maybe we can also link in the show notes. There's been study on that. Yeah, they're finding some of the changes that are taking place in the brain can't be reversed. And so it can lead to which is really sad and that's that's on the severe end, but they're finding that these, you know, the cognition can be changed the processing cognition speed changed. And the memory also can change. Short term memory can change the executive function, it can change forever. And I certainly don't want anyone to ever be in a place where they can't undo some of that stuff. And that is that is very, very extreme. Yeah, but that's that doesn't happen with neurotypicals. You know, that's very different than just being stressed out at your job and having to take the kids to school or soccer practices.

Melissa  

Yeah. Wow. Yeah, I'm definitely gonna, if you could share that with me, I'll link to it in the show notes. That's scary. Right? Like, because because there is such a message. And especially I think, for somebody who is neurodivergent. Like, it's just kind of internalized, like, just keep going, just keep going. Right? Like, just, you know, keep keep fitting in keep one foot in front of the other. But if you're really like permanently detrimental.

Kelly  

Yes, yes. And you have to learn to give yourself permission, and listen to yourself giving yourself permission to say, I'm not going to clean my house today, I'm not going to, I need to get rid of some of these demands that are on my plate. Because I, you know, like, I can't take it, my nervous system can't take it. And so I always recommend to people, like, try to do some, sometimes we can't reduce the demands. But a lot of there are small things that that people can do. You know, don't make your bed. Don't know, don't don't if you don't want to... Yeah, don't wash your hair today. You know, and that's another sign is your demand avoidance around things will, will be extremely high if you if you are in the state of burnout.

Melissa  

Yeah. So what can people do? If they are like, like nodding along like, okay, yes, I think this this is me, I think it could be autistic burnout, like, how do people take care of themselves during that? Or is there a way to get out of it?

Kelly  

There is a way to get out of it, which is good to know. Unfortunately, there are not a lot of great resources out there. And I do know that that is going to change. Some of the creators that I follow are actually writing books on this. And I know the more that we talk about this in the space, it will be it will start to change. I'm hoping to write a book on this at some point if I can get my demand avoidance in check but it's it's it starts with understanding yourself. And understanding what your neuro profile looks like and doing those autism assessments. Because of the assessments are asking a lot about your traits, which I think we'll also link to

Melissa  

Yep, I'm writing myself a note to link to them. Yeah, 

Kelly  

Yeah, Embrace Autism website is phenomenal. And those the assessments will ask good questions, not about burnout, but just about how you experience the world. And so once you can see through that lens, you'll know like, okay, these types of sensory things are really tough for me. I'm not going to do that. I made the decision last week to not go with my nieces and nephews to an indoor waterpark, because they I instantly thought about the noise and I was like, I can't do it. Yeah, I'm not going to be fun Tia if I have to go. But yeah, you know, so it's reducing some of those sensory inputs. It's, I'm working with one client right now and it's we're having so much fun, we're creating like, really homey nests for him at home. Like we're creating his bed to be this really plush, comfortable space for him. You know, that helps his him regulate temperature soft sheet soft blanket, a good pillow. You know, putting just putting like soft things around your house. Doing a sensory diet of things, you know, that you need, you know, are you sensory seeking, are you seeking to have stimulation or are you sensory avoidant? And listening to that and really following through on that, because what we what we need to do during this time is speak directly to the nervous system. Because I think cognitively we know a lot of things, but it's very different than what we experience internally. So if we can do things to speak to the to the nervous system, we can get exercise. Even and I'm not talking everybody's demand avoidance probably went way up When I said exercise, I'm talking about taking a little stroll, taking a walk, 

Melissa  

Something to move your body

Kelly  

Move your body, watching your favorite show. Everyone has their comfort shows and mine is The Office. And so when I'm in burnout, I watched Michael Scott on repeat. And it was something it helps me recharge, I'm laughing, I'm engaged. I love it. It's not new information. So there are some some information, some information out there, that saying, try to refrain from really diving into new information, maybe now isn't the best time to get this special interest, because we go all in with us. So maybe we expand on something within our special interest. But at the same time, maybe the special interests wouldn't be a good distraction. So you kind of have to gauge that for yourself and, and work on developing a lower demand lifestyle for a time period. And knowing what the toll is that social situations take out of you, that work takes out of you, you know, if you have to do a presentation, this might not be the week that you also do a lot of social get togethers, you might not have the bandwidth. And knowing what your baseline is usually, and when you start to come out of that window of tolerance, just adjusting things a little bit. So you're not living in this just, you know, terrible state of burnout where you can't get out of bed. In extreme cases, also, I will take people out of work, I'll put them on short term disability. And I think that if you are working for a business that offers that, that's a really great option. Because I would also stress to everyone that you need longer than two weeks, because it takes two weeks for your body, your nervous system to even unwind a little bit. So take people out for a month or six weeks, some people been out for the full 12 weeks. And it changes everything, you know that that was demanding on them and assaulting their nervous system able to adjust. Sometimes those clients don't go back. And that is perfect 

Melissa  

I was going to ask because I also heard people say that autistic burnout is unlike occupational burnout, and that like occupational burnout, you can take a break. And then often that's enough to reset. But the autistic burnout, like sometimes it's the occupation or whatever you were like, you know, it's it will never be okay to go back to that environment.

Kelly  

You have to change something about that environment, you can't go back to the same thing that was burning you out, because it will burn you out again, nine times out of 10. Yeah, probably 10 times out of 10. But you have to make changes somehow to protect yourself against it. Yeah, you can't just have a vacation. A lot of clients will go on vacation, my autistic clients and myself will go on vacation, and they'll come out even more burnout. Because they've traveled somewhere. They've dealt with trauma, you know, the airplane, the navigating in place. And while it was so stimulating and great for them, they need a few days to unwind and rest their nervous systems before going back into work. And once they realize that you can kind of pad those vacations to have that transition time.

Melissa  

Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I, I can relate to that so much. Yeah, I feel like, like, the older I get to the more I need it, like, do you notice that like, with your clients, like, I don't know, do we just get older and wiser? Do we just get to know ourselves more? Or do we? Or does the world get more exhausting? What is it?

Kelly  

Yeah, like something clicked in my brain once I turned 40. And it was I knew myself differently. And I was also a little bit more grumpy or less likely to put up with things. Yeah, yeah, it's knowing. I do feel that way. You know, our energy changes, but I look at things that I used to do in my early 20s and early 30s. And think I could never do that anymore. Yeah, so that's a good point to Melissa is you have to adapt as you change and your lifestyle changes. You get married, you have kids, you you know, you have an illness, or you get new jobs. Like you can't always show up the same that you same way that you've been showing up like that has to change. And that's okay.

Melissa  

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. For me, becoming a mom is like something that really I don't know changed what I can tolerate and I I've heard other people say that, that they realized that were autistic when they became parents or they realized they had ADHD. Because suddenly like, it's not just you, you know, you have your whole life of like figuring out things that work for you and how to manage and mask. And then suddenly you have this other thing human being you need to take care of. And it's just like, it is such a demand on executive functioning. And for me, it was so overstimulating, like I as I did sensory, sensory overload, like right next to my bed. And I remember thinking like, this doesn't feel like postpartum depression, like the way that people talk about it. Like, doesn't everybody feel like this when a baby comes in their house like this? Doesn't everybody feel like like a bomb just went off? Apparently, not. Not everyone, but it's, it's thinking about potentially having autism has helped me to like frame all of that really differently of like, okay, this is like just a new life challenge that I need to figure out ways that work and like, figure out what does it mean being like neurodivergent and being a mom, right? What because that maybe it's not going to look the same as somebody who's neurotypical and has kids? 

Melissa  

No, it will absolutely not look the same. And it should look the same. The moms I work with are typically do have neurodivergent children. And a lot of times those children will be sensory seeking, and the parents are sensory. For that, you know, the loud toy isn't banging and, and bedtime can be hard for you know, you think a bedtime is being like a quiet, relaxing wind down time. But bedtime for some neurodiverse parents can be difficult because they you know, at the end of the day, it's like, I just don't want to be touched. And it's it's not that they don't love their children and don't want to hug their children. But their nervous system is so overstimulated that it's really hard space for them to be curled up in a tiny twin bed while their kid is doing you know, alright, doing sensory seeking things while they're reading a book. And so it's exploring those those and how do you meet your sensory needs first as a parent, so that you can help your child meet theirs? Yeah, I do believe that, that moms are I see a lot of moms a lot of moms. And it's really hard to escape those, you know, the demands of that. And the noise. Yeah. And so it's really challenging, I think, to find a way and it is the I think it's relying pretty heavy on your community and your partner, your family, other things, other supports that you have because doing it your own yourself is really demanding. Kudos to everyone out there into your navigating the space really was. I'm sure there are some conversations, but it's not mainstream.

Melissa  

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I guess I've, you know, just been lucky of like, you know, having conversations with you or just diving into Yeah, creating a special interest of mine, or, you know, it is it's definitely like I've heard from a lot of parents like that they discover that they are neurodivergent when they realize that their kids are, and I've mine wasn't exactly in that order, but like, I'm definitely exploring now whether my son is neurodivergent, too. And one topic that I've been learning more and more about too, is twice exceptionality. Is that something that like do you use that terminology? Oh, my gosh, okay. I'm gonna, I'm gonna share it with you. Yeah, it's so interesting. So it's, it's when people have some type of how I've heard it described is like like a learning disability or form of neuro divergence like autism, ADHD, dyslexia, dysgraphia, and they're gifted, so like with high intellectual capabilities, and at least within like, the world of like educational psychology, I think that's what they're using is twice exceptional. So 2E, I don't know if you've heard of that 2E? And it's really interesting. From what I've been reading, it sounds like a lot of times, I'm bringing it up, because I bet there are a lot of people listening to this podcast, who fall into that category that are very gifted, and maybe they were in gifted education as a kid, although what what I understand is that for 2E people, often, like their giftedness isn't noticed. Because whatever, like the autism or ADHD or dyslexia like gets in the way of it being being observed.

Kelly  

So it could be like the disruptive child in the class who's brilliant, but no one can see it because they're bringing on something. 

Melissa  

Exactly. Exactly. Yes. Yes, yes, yes. Yeah. Or the kid who's nonverbal? Your nonverbal autistic kid, right? But like, with the right resources could like write poetry, right and something. Yeah, something like like that kind of a thing. And what I listened to an interview with a woman who was like an adult who really got diagnosed as 2E, with ADHD, autism and and giftedness. And what she realized was that her giftedness at all was allowed her to mask really well, because she was so aware and alert about people around her that it just automatically it was just like masking, but like, never been conscious of it at all. So yeah, just to share with you, it's I have now I have my own list of books that I could pop some in the show notes for that. A lot of it is, is focused on children, but I'm finding I don't think I identify as gifted, but I can definitely understand like, I'm smart, like I'm smart, I don't think you can get your PhD without being smart, so I can relate to some of it, but not to like the the full extent.

Kelly  

Yeah, and I definitely I wasn't aware of this term, but I definitely see that with the extremely smart people. And the ability to mask is

Melissa  

Like second nature, right? 

Kelly  

Yeah, yeah. So aware of every single little thing that they can Yeah can mask very appropriately in the moment. Yeah.

Melissa  

Well, Kelly, I want to ask you to, um, what about like, a deep, like, what do you think about diagnosis? Like, do people who are listening if they're feeling like, oh, okay, like, I resonate with this? Do they need to, like run out and work with a professional and get diagnosed or like, what's, what's the next step they should take?

Kelly  

So this is, this is a interesting, I think place that we are in right now, in just in the world, definitely in the US with really understanding what what autism looks like. So I guess I'll start off by saying, if you think that you know, this, these things are resonating with you, and you're thinking, Oh, I might be on the spectrum, I might be autistic myself. Be curious about that. We can, I can definitely give you a list of books that I love, and that are great to read when you're exploring. And we can maybe put those in the notes. Yeah. There's a great book called, I think I Might be Autistic. And it's got some crayons on the front. I did one of my favorite. Did you get that one?

Melissa  

Yeah, you've recommended that one

Melissa  

Yeah, it breaks down the diagnosis in simple terms and simple questions to ask yourself, and you won't say yes to all of them. But you will start to look at it's a way to look at your life through a different lens. And so I, I use that for some of my interviewing that I do. I also have my clients go on to embrace autism website, the founder and psychologists of that site has done I'm blanking on her name, but she has done a phenomenal job. And I would love to shake her hand today, because the resources that she has put out the way that she has put the assessments together, she's broken them down on how to take them and which ones will make you feel not great. And which ones are good, because some of the autism assessments you walk away feeling like a narcissist, because the questions are so terrible. I don't want anyone to ever feel like that. And so you can start there by kind of looking at that, getting on the side of autistic Tik Tok, looking at the creators and not everything that there's a saying that if you meet one autistic person, you've, you've met one autistic person, we're not all the same or autism completely different from one another. But be curious and see how things line up for you. Within the autism community, formal diagnosis is not required to be a part of the community. It is a very accepting group of people because we have been, you know, treated a certain kind of way our whole life and we've all been outsiders and probably bullied or felt different. And so if you are self diagnosed, that's fine. That that is fully accepted and no one will ever ask for your autism card. You don't get one group your vote that so and if you do want to go through the formal process, it that is fine too. There. There are some there can be some perks with that if you need accommodations at work. If there's certain benefits in the country that you live there, you know, there's all kinds of things there, that can be a plus. But you want to make sure that the person that you're going to understand what autism really looks like, you want to understand that they know that it can look like, you know, how it presented myself, and how am I presenting you. Because a lot of the people that come to me have spent 1000s of dollars getting assessments from psychologists. And they were told they weren't autistic, they were told they weren't ADHD and the reasons they were given or because they could look the person in the eye. And because they were successful, and there weren't, they weren't seeing the struggles they weren't seeing, you know, that person going down and having a meltdown, or having to do a face to face interview. Yeah. And it completely invalidates the person. It's a traumatic experience. And that's why I also think the Autistic community has leaned more towards, hey, if you say you have autism, we believe you, you know, that's totally fine. And a part of the process of exploring this, I also want to let people know is there's a lot of emotions that you go through, when you're going through this journey. Some of its excitement, some of its like, no way that can never be me, you know, doubt denial. Some people get really sad, sometimes I'll get sad thinking about it, like, Oh, if little Kelly had known, she could have done so many things differently. And, you know, it's, you just have to be ready for that and take it as slow as you need to it definitely I know, people are like, I just want to know, I want to get it done as autistic people. We want to have the answers. Yeah. But give yourself the space to do that. And there are some questions to that, that maybe I can put together. And we can listen to you about things that you could ask before you go into an assessment. So I know for me, like I offer a 20-30 minute consultation with people that's free, and they get to ask me all the questions that they want to. So in those assess in those consultations, you can be asking like, how many people have you diagnosed women? You're not asking what do you know about autism, but you're just finding out how do they view autism? Before you really think that that jump, and there's also a website, that is a directory, and it's new. So there's not it's not a comprehensive directory, but I really like where it's going. And it links people with other neurodivergent therapists. 

Melissa  

Wow, how cool. Well, yeah, oh, yeah. I love that. Yeah. And I, I would say to anybody who's listening, like you kind of already said it, but like, it can be really powerful. Maybe, maybe you don't get the diagnosis right now, but finding a professional to work with just to process some of this. I was seeing a therapist for anxiety. And once I started to wonder, like, could I have autism, like she's not somebody who specializes in neuro divergence, but just a very, like, human affirming kind of therapist, and we've and specialized in trauma. And so we've really dug into like, yeah, what is the trauma that comes with potentially being a neurodivergent growing up in a neurotypical world, and there's a lot to unpack there. But it's such an opportunity to look into that and to heal from that stuff.

Kelly  

Yeah, and it's not as essential that your therapist specializes in autism, you know, outside of the assessment. My, I have two therapists, they do EMDR and regular talk therapy. And neither of them specialize in autism, but they know about it now. You know, like, I've been able to share resources, and they just say, Oh, wow, well, then half of the other of my clients are autistic. You know, if you find a therapist that wants to learn about it, too, that's open to what you're suggesting. Yeah, they can think outside the box with because it's not what the dean or the sorry, the DSM. Yeah. Makes it out to be. 

Melissa  

Yeah, definitely not. Yeah, it'll be interesting to see how that might change. Oh, it's always I don't. Yeah, yeah. Well, and Kelly, what about I always have a question I'd like to ask people at the very end. If we could go back in time when you were first starting to work with autistic clients like what would you love to go back in and tell yourself, whisper in your ear at that time?

Kelly  

I I would like to, especially when I myself was on this journey to figure out if I was autistic, I would like to go back and reduce the shame and embarrassment that I felt about being autistic and also specializing in autism and not knowing. Yeah, because that was a hard thing for me. And I was very, I was like, how am I ever going to come out and say this? Yeah, people are gonna look at and say, what, how does she do that and not realize her, you know, she herself was also autistic. It's just to offer compassion, because those masks can be so, so deep and so many layers. And trauma, also, you know, it plays a part of that, too, and how trauma impacts our lives and how we see ourselves. So it would definitely be to have more compassion towards myself, which I know you are a huge fan.

Melissa  

Yeah, yeah. I'm likeinside. I'm like, Yeah, compassion, self compassion. Yeah.

Kelly  

And just being I really like the word curious. Just be curious. Yeah, don't be judgmental. Let's just see. And  I think as neurodivergent people, we are naturally curious about how things work and be curious about how you work and a, yeah, and I wish that back when I've started doing all this work just a few years ago, I wish there were better resources out there that were helping to guide the way and yeah, I hope that I didn't miss anyone that was I actually, still people that have come to me for autism. There's never been anyone that wasn't autistic or ADHD. They've always been somewhere with those. But yeah, it's just we're still even the experts are still figuring out what this looks like. Yeah. And it's gonna take time for the rest of the world to catch up.

Melissa  

Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm so glad you didn't have all the information even though I wish that you could have had a smoother journey. But just because it you know, I think it's really ignited some of that passion in you right and to help. I see you as a trailblazer in this field, and your clients are very lucky to have you. And I'm so happy like that. We've crossed paths. And I've learned so much from you. As I told you, before we hit record. I was like, if Kelly's autistic like the maybe I can be like it was just actually really

Kelly  

When you told me I thought you were I did a little dance. I was like, I like you so much. And I always have even when we did our book club together years ago. Yeah. I thought Yes. Another person.

Melissa  

Yeah, it's just, I think it's so powerful. That's why when we did this interview, I told you, I wanted to self disclose to you that I've been on this journey, because I think it is really powerful for people to like, you know, see a person see all the shiny, shiny outside stuff that you're doing and then, but like to also see like, oh, okay, they have this, like, they're artistic, or they think they're autistic too. Like, it just breaks open, like, like, the world helps people be more curious and compassionate too, I think.

Kelly  

Yep. It absolutely it does. Yes.

Melissa  

Okay, now that my final final question is, where can people find you and learn more about you and connect with you? And if they want you to be their therapist? How can they do that? 

Kelly  

So I my practice is Seven Seas counseling. And you can go to my website, and then you can find me there. My, my Instagram is also seven seas counseling. And yeah, that that's where I am. And I can only within the US, I only work with clients in Virginia, Rhode Island and Florida right now. But I do work with a lot of international folks. So. And if I, if you're not in one of those states, but you're in the US, check out maybe the neurodivergent directory, and there might be someone there, or just maybe looking at some of the few content that I have out to see if that resonates. And maybe one day, I'll get my book out.

Melissa  

Exactly. Yeah, I'm excited. Oh, Kelly, thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing all of your expertise and your journey. It's just been wonderful. And I could talk to you for another two hours. But let's you know, I'm feeling a little tired too. So let's, let's wrap things up. 

Kelly  

Thank you for having me.