Why Most People Are Bad Negotiators And Don't Know It | Lousin Mehrabi

Lousin Mehrabi has spent two decades in high stakes negotiations and says the best negotiators are all calm, composed introverts.

Lousin Mehrabi joins Matt Haycox to strip the aggression myth out of negotiation. She started in finance on the trading floors, handling M&A, IPOs and lobbying, until a year of corporate training in 2013 under professional negotiators, one from the French special forces, covering lie detection and profiling, changed her direction entirely. She now works from Dubai with companies, governments and hospitals on high stakes deals, divorce cases and suicide interventions, and reckons that in over 90 percent of cases what people say they want is not what they need.

Donald Trump gets a proper dissection: his habit of taking agreed deals off the table and making you beg for what you already had, and why it only works with authority behind it. Hostage negotiation comes down from the movies to everyday life, from why negotiators never work alone to why you keep unreasonable people talking for the intel, with lessons from her mentor George Kohlrieser, the hostage negotiator who wrote Hostage at the Table. Matt puts his own deal record through her three pillars of credibility, competence and composure, and picks a fight with the Starbucks discount method of building a rejection muscle.

Chapters
0:00 - Coming Up
0:16 - Intro
1:28 - The Truth About Negotiation: It’s Not What You Think
8:30 - How to Get the Best Deal: Business & Life Examples
17:53 - Is Donald Trump a Good Negotiator?
24:19 - Hostage Negotiation: How It Really Works
34:01 - Overcoming Fear of Rejection in Negotiation
39:17 - Mastering Everyday Negotiation: How to Get What You Want for Free
42:08 - Final Thoughts & Where to Learn More from Lousin Mehrabi

About Lousin Mehrabi
Lousin Mehrabi is a professional negotiator, keynote speaker and negotiation advisor. She rarely works with the public, sharing free content on LinkedIn and YouTube instead, and previously hosted a podcast interviewing fellow professional negotiators. She has trained leaders at a week long summit in Gstaad and holds that negotiation, leadership and emotional intelligence go hand in hand.

Follow Lousin:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lousinmehrabi/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lousin-mehrabi/
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@lousinmehrabi

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

There is this negative thing about negotiation that it's about manipulation and about being aggressive and about being loud, which I believe is created by the movies, created by media, created by everything we see on Wall Street, and it couldn't be further from the truth.

SPEAKER_01 0:20

Guys, Matt Haycock's here, and I'm very excited to have in the house today Lucine Murabi, the International Negotiating Expert. She's a she's a keynote speaker, she's worked with hostage negotiators, she's worked with businesses. I'm sure she's negotiated in her own personal life as well. She was introduced to me through a great friend of mine who speaks very highly of her. I've uh been listening to some of her work before today, and uh as someone who's got his own views on negotiation, um, I'm looking forward to asking you about that, listening to your stories, and I think it's going to be a good episode for all of our listeners because I think a good place to start from this is that everybody is in sales, everybody is negotiating all day, every day, whether or not they know it. I would argue that kids are some of the best negotiators in the world because they will scream and scream and scream and make your life a misery until you give in. And then for some reason, we seem to lose that negotiating gene the older we get. But Lucine, uh, thanks a lot for being here.

SPEAKER_00 1:25

Thank you, thank you for having me. This is going to be very interesting.

SPEAKER_01 1:28

I'll tell you actually, I thought we'd start off talking about uh talking about kids and other people's negotiation. But one thing I guess that immediately hit me, first of all, when I met you and also listening to some of your content is I think people naturally expect negotiators, A, to be male, and b to be aggressive. And I'll go more with the aggressive bit than the male than than the male bit, but I think negotiating as a as a tactic, you know, as a skill, is thought of as you know, really you know aggressive people. Um, and I think if someone was to say, who do you think is a great negotiator, whether or not it's true, I think people would say Donald Trump. You know, someone like him who blusters his way into a situation, steamrollers people out of the way to get what they want. But I guess that can't be true. Sat here, sat here looking at you. You're very mild mannered, you're very polite. Um, I guess tell tell me how you see it from your perspective.

SPEAKER_00 2:23

Well, unfortunately, you're right. Unfortunately, there is this negative thing about negotiation that it's about manipulation and about being aggressive and about being loud, um, which I believe is created by the movies, created by media, created by everything we see on Wall Street. I mean, I'm I'm from finance myself and I worked on the trading floors. So people tend to believe the louder we are, the more we get done. Um, and it couldn't be further from the truth. Another mistake, uh people often believe that negotiation is for extroverts, people who are extremely outgoing and loud and want to be in large crowds. Um but the people I work with and what I see on the field is that the best negotiators I've worked with, all of them, without exception, are introverts, are calm, are composed. I always say the number one skill to be a good negotiator is self-control. It's remaining calm in stressful situations because high-stakes negotiations are stressful. So it's not about being the loudest, it's not about being aggressive, it's not about manipulating, lying, and g and getting your way that way. That is a tactic and can be used in certain situations and can be beneficial. But the majority of the cases we can resolve by remaining calm so that we can stay connected to our frontal lobe, the part of the brain that is making the decisions, that is reflecting, um, that can analyze the situation from different angles and that can come to a solution. Because what negotiation basically is, is a way to get your needs met. That's why we negotiate. It's a way to resolve conflicts, that's why we negotiate. Um, and as you rightfully said, our children, they know exactly how to do it because they want their needs met and they're not reflecting on strategies, etc. They're just focused on their needs. I have a need, I want to get it met, so that's how that's why I do what I do. And it literally starts from the second they are born, uh, crying for milk, crying for attention, crying for affection. Like we are born negotiators. We already know, it's just that the tactics we used when we were babies are not necessarily adapted anymore.

SPEAKER_01 4:31

But I think what I've picked up, or something I'm picking up from what you're saying though, is is to negotiate, you know, two people have to want to negotiate, you know, two people have to want to achieve something. I say two people, two sides, you know, it could be it could be two people in business, it could be husband and wife arguing, it could be countries, it could it could be businesses. When we when we use the child analogy, um to me that's that's not two people who want to negotiate to a compromise. That's one person who is going to get what they want at all costs, and one person who's going to see how long that they can argue and and ultimately back down. I mean, are there any takeaways we can learn from that or can use from that in, let's say, more sophisticated high-stakes compromises?

SPEAKER_00 5:19

Absolutely. We need to be aware of who is part of the negotiation table. It's always at least two parties involved, sometimes several. Um, and are is there a willingness to come to an agreement? Um, often I'm I'm called into a situation, it's already high stakes, they haven't been able to resolve the conflict, and I come in and the person they want me to negotiate with, that person doesn't want to talk to me. They're like, who the fuck are you? Why should I talk to you? Why are you coming in? So it already starts with me having to negotiate the negotiation, meaning make it uh understood that it's better for them if they come to the table.

SPEAKER_01 5:57

And and how do you do that? Because again, as I'm talking, I'm I'm thinking I'm thinking of circumstances or analogies, and you know, if someone listening to this isn't in business, and we're talking about, let's say, that's the teenage kid. The teenage kid's super naughty, and they're saying, Listen, I want to talk to you and I want to educate you, negotiate with you uh about what acceptable behaviour is. And they're like, No, mum, fuck you, I'm not getting involved in this. They don't want to negotiate, but you have to bring them to the table, so you cut off their allowance, you lock them in the bedroom, and you say, Listen, you're gonna be eating no food, you're gonna be spending no money until you want to come to the table. And I guess if it's a country, if the dictator doesn't want to doesn't want to negotiate, then you've got to start killing a few killing a few other people close to him until he realizes that maybe compromise is the best solution, and then then the negotiation opens.

SPEAKER_00 6:47

Two things I want to say. So you already said intuitively you've already been doing it, because one of the tactics to get somebody who doesn't want to negotiate to the negotiation table is to make their situation while not negotiating worse. So you increase the pain of not negotiating. Okay, there are obviously different tactics to be done, whether that's in business or high-stakes negotiations. Um, and the second thing, you the word you've used several times is a word that I absolutely hate, which is compromise.

SPEAKER_01 7:16

Okay. We tend to We'll fix that in the edit.

SPEAKER_00 7:20

No, I'm happy you mentioned it because obviously all the listeners are also thinking that compromise is a part of negotiation. That somewhere, somehow we have to compromise. Um and I always get this in my trainings as well. And my question back is who here likes to compromise?

SPEAKER_01 7:36

But no nobody likes to compromise, but there has to be compromise.

SPEAKER_00 7:40

Not necessarily. For me, a good negotiation is having the skills to truly understand what matters to the other party. So you don't stop with what they say they want, that is just a position. It doesn't matter whether they tell you that you know verbally or they write it to you in an email, whatever they tell you that they want, that is just a position. And people start negotiating on that. And I always say, no, no, no, no, no. Take a step back, analyze, do your homework, and try to understand with good questions and everything that goes with it, what is truly at stake here? What is it that they need? Because I can tell you, after having negotiated high-stakes deals for over two decades, Matt, it's incredible. But over 90% of the cases, and I'm even confident to say 99% of the cases, what people say they want is not what they need.

SPEAKER_01 8:30

But if I were to give, let's say, uh maybe a simple but semi-extreme scenario, somebody's selling a property for a million dollars and I'd like to pay $100,000 to buy it. I mean, we're so far apart, it's so extreme. There has to look if I get it for $500,000, it's probably still a bargain, right? But I'm still compromising from the $100,000. But I was just so unrealistic when I set out in in the first place.

SPEAKER_00 8:59

Right. But that person is probably, if the value of the property is really around a million, they're never going to give you it for $500k, even if you're the best negotiator in the world. Because that's where the needs come in. It's not only about the skills, it's truly understanding their needs.

SPEAKER_01 9:13

So let me maybe go on a slight tangent, but I'll ask you something like that, because this was one of the angles I wanted to talk about. So people tell me that I'm a great negotiator. Okay. Because I could give you many examples of, let's say, deals I've done where I look like I've come out extremely well, typically buying an asset for a very cheap price. Now I say I don't think I am a good negotiator. I think maybe I'm good at building relationships and being polite and not being aggressive, but where I believe I win in my negotiations is a lot of prep work and a lot of pipeline building. Because ultimately, I don't believe you can get someone to do something that they fundamentally don't want to do or can't do. I agree. So what I do is find lots and lots and lots of people to talk to because I work from the perspective that you catch the right person on the right day, you'll get what you want. And one of my well-documented stories, because I talk about it a lot and I've you know made YouTube videos on it, is the apartment. I live here in Dubai. I bought this place off an asking price of 20 million dirhams, and I paid 7.1 million dirhams to buy it. I didn't do anything particularly clever other than what I think was put the work in at the beginning to find people. I bought my boat, I bought it on very much the same basis. I knew the boat that I wanted to buy, I found 20 people who were looking to sell. I offer everybody half price, three or four people start talking to me. The complete flip side of that is my ex-wife, where she used to she'd want to buy a horse for her, a horse for our daughter, and she uh she'd ring me up, she'd go, I found this horse, it's a beautiful horse. They're asking whatever, they're asking ten thousand dollars. I've told them that we're having it and we'll collect it tomorrow. But can you go negotiate the price, please? Are you fucking amazing? Like the price of that would be fifteen thousand dollars because they know you love it and they know you're collecting it tomorrow. And uh I've kind of set the scene with a coup with a with a with a couple couple of long stories there, but you know, like you know, ultimately, um you know, I don't think you can make someone do something they don't want to do. I just think I can build good relationships with people so we can talk to each other honestly. I can be creative if I need to be creative, you know. I can I can be very honest, uh, but then I just have enough options so that if if things don't go my way, then I'm I'm not gonna be crying about it.

SPEAKER_00 11:34

Well, great. So let's analyze it. Let's analyze why you are a good negotiator. So hearing it from me, maybe that will change your perspective. You are a good negotiator, it's not only what the others are saying. And let's analyze exactly everything you said and to see why uh you succeeded and uh why your ex-wife didn't, and uh and the success stories and what we can learn from it for the audience. So, number one, you said you're doing your preparations. So you're doing your homework, you know what you're talking about, you know the market, and this is extremely important. You would be surprised how many people I see on a negotiation table that have no idea what they're talking about. Like that already ruins immediately your credibility and everything else you have to say in that period. So doing your homework is extremely important. In certain circumstances, we even say it's 80% of the work. Prepare, do your homework, know who you're talking to, know the market, know the product, know everything, everything, everything you can because that's it, that is all leverage in your favor. Then the second thing you do very well, you said, is building relationships, like building a bond. This is also extremely important, and people who do it naturally think that it's something easy, but it's not. There are a lot of people who have difficulties connecting with other people, bonding with other people, um, establishing a relationship of trust. Um, this comes very naturally to certain people and it's very difficult for some. So this is something you cannot not do. Um, even in high-stakes negotiations, when we're talking about hostage negotiations, kidnap and ransom, uh, negotiating with dogmatic people who are, for example, psychotic or or have taken drugs or anything, and they are ready to do horrible things, and you're like, you know, I hate that person, I never want to deal with them, you still have to. And it starts with building a bond. It starts with making them believe that they can trust you in whatever it is that you say you'll do. And when I talk about trust, it's not necessarily trusting you with them live and say, you know what, I trust this person, etc. It's just trusting that in the negotiation they will do what they say they'll do.

SPEAKER_01 13:32

So I was gonna say, sorry to interrupt on that, but I think for me as well, particularly in business, that is so important because again, crucial a lot of the deals that I do do with people, they're quite creative deals. They involve maybe getting extended payment terms, uh, you know, maybe swapping things or doing really weird and wonderful, wonderful things. And people go, how did that guy possibly agree to what you agreed? I was like, the only reason he agreed is because he trusts me. And I guess you could apply that to so many things if it's international warfare or whatever, you know. If everything.

SPEAKER_00 14:05

Even even the way the reason I'm sitting here, as you said, our mutual friend introduced me to you and said she was on my podcast, it was one of the best episodes you should have her on. And you said, okay, let's plan it. You you didn't even know who I was, you didn't read about me, nothing. But just because this person that you trust told you that you should have me on, boom, you did it. So it's relationships are so so important. And I think in the world of where AI is emerging, relationships are going to become more and more and more important because how do you want to build trust on with AI or on AI? You know, it's this human factor that is crucial. So that's the second thing you did and you do very well. The third thing you already mentioned is being creative. Like negotiation is problem solving, is how to go from a disagreement to an agreement. There are many people who tell me, Luz, I hate negotiation because I hate conflict. And I always say we negotiate to resolve conflict. It's because we don't like conflict that we have to become better at negotiation. If the entire world was better at negotiation, Matt, we will have we would have so much less suffering. There would be less wars, divorces would be more smooth, like everything would be resolved better and faster if people knew how to negotiate better. Um, sometimes, as a joke, when people tell me what do you do, just to get the reaction, because I've had millions of reactions when I say I'm a negotiator, but just to get another reaction, I say I'm a mediator, I resolve conflict. They're like, oh, interesting, tell me more. A mediator and negotiator do exactly the same thing. It's exactly the same thing. The only difference is as a negotiator, represent one party, as a mediator in between. But the goal is the same: resolve conflict, come to an agreement. So being creative is super important. To know, okay, we have a problem at stake, how can we resolve this? And then creativity. You know how many situations I've resolved, but as you said, like things that are completely not done or not thought about or different than what they expected. But that creative hat is very important in resolving conflict. So that's the third thing you said. The fourth thing is also crucial, and this is what people underestimate is your capacity to remain detached. And that's very important, right? Many people go into a negotiation and they know exactly what they want, what they don't want, what's their walk away point, and this is how it should be. But the goal is to go into a negotiation with an enormous mindset of curiosity, of saying, I want to discover if reaching a deal is in my best interest. Because maybe it's not. So very open-minded and saying, I want to discover if this is the best or not. And the more you've done your homework, the more you know there are other options out there, so it's not this or nothing. So you're already coming in more calm, more confident, more relaxed. Um, and that can help you. So you being detached from the outcome of saying, you know what, I've viewed 20 houses, I can view 30 more, and we'll see. It's not this house or nothing, it's not my dream house, like the the dream horse that your ex-wife owned it, right? Because then you're already putting yourself in a scenario of saying, Oh my god, I need to have this, I need to have this. So your need increases, and therefore your willingness to compromise or give more than what you wanted. So those that that's the fourth element, and the fifth element, what I what I notice in the way you speak and what you say about yourself is authenticity. Like you're not faking it, you're not bullshitting people, you're real. Because you've done your homework, you're detached from the outcome, you know you will get what you want, anyways. Um, and therefore you don't have to fake, you don't have to lie, you don't have to manipulate all those things that people think must be done in a negotiation, which I completely disagree with. You don't have to. If you do your homework properly and you do the work on yourself, which I'm a big advocate of, how to remain calm in stressful situations, that's how you can get a lot done with collaboration, with honesty, with authenticity. You don't have to lie, you don't have to bullshit anyone.

SPEAKER_01 17:53

So when we talk about, let's say, some of the stereotypical negotiators, like like a Donald Trump potentially, or or you know, these very male, aggressive, blusterful characters, are they good negotiators? As in, d d do they uh apply the um the strategies and tactics that you've just been talking about, or are they just getting what they want because they're finding weak targets and steam rolling over them?

SPEAKER_00 18:18

Yeah. Uh both. I personally believe Donald Trump is a good negotiator because he gets things done, but I don't think he's a good negotiator in every circumstance. Why? Because when you analyze Donald Trump's negotiation style, it's quite similar in all of the circumstances. What he does is he often comes in and first takes off the table what was already agreed on in the past and then makes you negotiate to get what you already had. We've seen this over and over again, for example, with the Paris Agreement or with other agreements that are already signed, that are already a done deal. He comes and it's like, okay, this is now off the table, and makes you beg for something you already had. So this is, for example, what we saw in the COVID, when people were all of a sudden we had to wear masks or we weren't allowed to go to circumplaces, and then when we were allowed to do that again, there were like parties happening, and we were also happy. Like, hello, you already had that right. So it's not something that you gained, but it feels that way because it was taken away from you. And this is what Donald Trump does. The second thing he does is he goes all in on authority. So it's the authority power that he uses, his name, his function, uh, president of the United States, etc. So he goes in with the same angle, same tactics, and then he has this extreme big level of charisma and confidence and you know the way he shows up that make people seem impressed or intimidated, even. And that's how he gets things done by combining these three things. Now, put Donald Trump in a circumstance where he has to um he cannot use his name, he cannot use his fame, he cannot use anything, and it has to be a collaborative negotiation because what's at stake cannot be resolved uh competitively. I'm not sure if he would be very successful. So can he get deals done? Yes. Is he a certain is he a good negotiator in certain circumstances? Yes. Is he a good negotiator overall and can he negotiate anything with anyone at any time? No.

SPEAKER_01 20:20

So I guess on a slight tangent, would you argue therefore that building personal brand, building credibility in life in general, you know, let's say uh popular or fame in your niche or popularity in general is a globally good negotiating tactic for you because when you arrive in a situation you already appear with a certain level of framing and certain level of authority.

SPEAKER_00 20:45

Absolutely, 100%. Like the framework I always use with what I teach my my clients is in order to be a good negotiator, there's three angles we need, three pillars if you want. The first one is credibility, and this we have to work on consistently. So it's building your network, your relationships, uh the company you work for, the culture, all those things. You're it's it's the authority that it gives you. Because authority is not something that you can proclaim. Authority is given to you by other people. How do they perceive you? Um, and and knowing the right people, having a certain audience, having a certain expertise, uh all those things matter and help you. Then the second pillar is your competence, obviously your skills. You need to be good at negotiation. But this is where a lot of negotiation books or trainings are focused only on the skills, only on the tactics, only on the techniques, like ask certain type of questions or speak with a certain voice. And that's not enough. Of course, it's crucial, and there are some hard skills that you absolutely have to know not to make mistakes, but that alone is not going to be enough. Your credibility is super important. And then the third pillar, and this is what I'm most passionate about, and I'm surprised that we don't talk about this more in the negotiation world. Is composure. Again, how to remain calm in stressful situations. You don't want to know how often I have trained people, whether it's one-to-one or groups, or I'm advising them behind the scenes, and the entire team has been trained, has been prepped. We've gone through the whole negotiation strategy. Everything is ready to go. They go in and they ruin it within the first hour because ego comes up, because they don't have self-control, because they're pushed against the wall and they lose it and they forgot everything we just went through, you know, prepping for weeks or months. So this self-composure is something that I can't teach you in five minutes. This is something that needs to be cultivated, that needs to be a part of you, and that you need to work on every single day through the different techniques, etc., that are out there. But we don't talk about it enough. There are so many negotiators who have the skills, who have the credibility, who have the experience, who have the expertise, and yet it becomes stressful and they go back to their default system and they become either aggressive, emotional, or whatever else that make them lose the negotiation.

SPEAKER_01 23:03

When you were talking about Trump a minute ago, you were talking about one of his tactics is to take off the table what's what's already on it. And then you used the COVID example that when you give it back, you know, people think they've had a win. I would assume that's quite a double-edged sword negotiating tactic because I know you know I'm very strong the opposite way with trust, that if I don't trust you or like you, I'll I you know I'll just switch off. Unless I've got no other option, fine. If I have options, you'll switch me off so much. And if if you take something off the table that was already on it, I think for me that that could that would probably be terminal to the negotiation because I just think this person absolutely cannot be trusted if he's gonna do it now, what's gonna happen further down.

SPEAKER_00 23:45

And you said it yourself because you have other options. In this case, what makes Trump successful is he does it with the authority that he has. So it's those things combined. It's you are dependent on him, so you're just gonna follow his his lead. He's leading the negotiation by doing it this way. Like he's coming in and he immediately shuffles the cards. Like it doesn't matter how you well you were prepared, what you were thinking, whatever you thought you already have had is already off the table. So he just messes with your brain as well. Um, and that's a tactic that can work, but it can only work if you have the upper hand and if you have the authority that goes with it.

SPEAKER_01 24:19

You were talking a minute ago as well about um somebody making the decision whether or not it's uh you know it's worth them engaging in the negotiation, you know, whether whether they can get a kind of a satisfactory outcome to what they wanted. And one of the things I wanted to talk to you about was hostage negotiations. And I could be wrong when I say it, but I look at hostage negotiation as something a lot more polarizing or binary, and let's let's map out a specific scenario, as extreme as it may be. He's gone into a bank to hold up a bank, he's got 20 hostages in the bank, he's got a bag with a couple of million dollars, and he's killed a hostage. He's now inside the bank, the police are around outside, and he's talking to the hostage negotiator about coming out. I mean, if I was that guy, I don't see how I can ever think of that there's any good outcome for me because I I know that my best case scenario is I'm coming out of there and I'm spending the rest of my life in prison. Being killed on the job could probably be a better outcome for me than spending the rest of my life in prison. As the negotiator, how are you dealing with that person? Because I'm there as well going, I want a helicopter waiting outside, I want a couple more million dollars in the bag, and I want a pizza hut while while I'm waiting. What do these people really hope to achieve?

SPEAKER_00 25:38

Well, it's a it's a very good question, and we could all even ask the question the other way around is what is the hostage negotiator even thinking to achieve?

SPEAKER_01 25:47

You know, and I guess he's got night nineteen lives to save, and he's buying time for someone to find an angle, no?

SPEAKER_00 25:55

Well, buying time is always important to give the rest of the team because as negotiators we never go in alone. Like again, that is a misconception that we have from Hollywood movies where there is like one star and he's negotiating everything. Like that's not.

SPEAKER_01 26:07

He's got the gun stuck with cellar tape on his back.

SPEAKER_00 26:10

Yeah, but that it's it's not like that. Even in hostage negotiations, it's it's never like that. There's always a team. Um, there's always the lead negotiator, and then there's the one helping, and then there's the decision maker, which is never the decision, uh the negotiator. And there is a whole team. So we always want to gain time so we can prepare, we can analyze the the person we're negotiating with, we want to understand. But even, you know, our listeners, and thank God, they don't often have to do hostage negotiations. So I want to bring this immediately, the hostage negotiation situation, to everyday life. Because we don't realize that we're often taken hostage ourselves, be it on a business setting, be it in a family setting, um, and we don't realize that we're being taken hostage by somebody who's, for example, being extremely um aggressive or uh makes demands that are completely ridiculous. So that can be compared, and yet we have some form of dependency because they have something that we want. That is a hostage taking. And I often say this in everyday life when I'm dealing with people, I say, I feel taken hostage. I don't like this scenario. They're like, what do you mean? And then I explain. They're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, I didn't mean it that way. But um there is a great book written by one of my mentors, George Colreiser. George Colreiser was a hostage negotiator himself and uh is a psychologist and is the lead uh trainer for IMD Business School. So he's teaching all this, and he wrote a book called Hostage at the Table, where he's bringing all these hostage negotiation skills to the business setting world. Um fascinating book, recently released part two of it. Um, and I was fortunate enough to work with him, where he invited me to a leadership summit in Gestadt where we trained leaders all over the world for a week in all these skills. So negotiation was a big one. And because we both say negotiation, leadership, and emotional intelligence always go hand in hand. Like when you become a better negotiator, you automatically become a better uh leader and the other way around. Because it's the exact same skills that we need to be a good leader as that we need to be a good negotiator. So to come back to your question, why do we still negotiate with these types of people? We negotiate to get intel, we negotiate to understand who else are they working with, we negotiate to prevent, as you said, either somebody else getting killed or future scenarios from happening. And all the time that we're talking to them, it's not only convincing them to stop what they're doing, it's also to gain intel about what else is at stake. Like, is at the same time one of his uh buddies robbing another bank? Is um another team coming? Is he alone? Um what is the situation in the bank? Do any of the other hostages need assistance, need medical help, etc. etc. So we keep talking because with every good question and every minute of conversation we gain more intel, more intel, more intel, which can help. So even if we're thinking of dealing with people that are completely unreasonable, I always say continue talking. Because the intel you gain by doing it well can always serve in either that time negotiation or a future negotiation. So that's one of the reasons why we keep talking to Morant.

SPEAKER_01 29:08

I like that. I didn't think of uh I didn't think of the decoy bank robbery that he's uh he's holding up some hostages to attract the attention while his friends are down the road uh robbing a bigger bank bank.

SPEAKER_00 29:18

Robbing a bigger bank, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 29:20

How did you learn your skills?

SPEAKER_00 29:23

Um, my background is in finance. I was doing business negotiations, MA, IPO, uh, some lobbying as well. And I was fortunate enough to work for a company who invested a lot in training, corporate training, so they brought in two professional negotiators. This was back in 2013. Um, one of them was uh from the special forces in France. And these two men, they taught us a year long everything about negotiation, lie detection, profiling. Um, and I was just so fascinated by it that once I started applying what they taught me, I was like, oh my goodness, why didn't I know this before? And I realized that in the business field we're often sent to go to negotiate without having had a proper training. In business schools, it's being taught a little bit. But compared to how much time we spend in everyday life negotiating, it's peanuts, the training that we get. And there are certain things that if you don't know, you're gonna make the same mistakes over and over again. So it doesn't matter whether you have 20, 30, 40 years of experience. If you don't know, you don't know. So there are some hard skills that are very beneficial to learn. And I learned that back then in 2013, because back then I'd already been negotiating for what, like at least 15 years and doing it as I thought, like most of us. And then I had the training, and I was like, oh my goodness, thank God I'm equipped. And to make a long story short, they asked me to join them as a consultant. I did several years later, and now I'm here um in Dubai helping companies with their negotiations, and not only companies, I work with hospitals, I work with medical teams, I work with governments in high-stakes negotiations, business, suicide, divorce cases, you name it.

SPEAKER_01 30:57

When you say suicide, you mean you're trying to stop somebody from killing themselves?

SPEAKER_00 31:01

Right.

SPEAKER_01 31:02

What would that kind of a scenario be? I mean, again, looking at the movies, somebody stood on a balcony saying, I'm going to jump. I mean, who who's who's who's calling you in to do the negotiation?

SPEAKER_00 31:12

Um, well, it's not something that I want to advertise because it's not necessarily something that I want to do uh very often, and I hope I don't have to. But um the first time it was the person planning to commit suicide who called me directly and saying, Okay, this is what I've done, can you please inform my wife? Um the second time it was the HR department of a company I had trained, and then they had someone in the company um, you know, threatening to commit suicide, and she called me because she didn't know who else to call, and um I talked to that person. So it's not something that you advertise and you say, Hello, I'm a suicide negotiation negotiator. It's just when people know you're a negotiator and things like that happen, they tend to call you in.

SPEAKER_01 31:54

I mean, without trying to go off on a psychological tangent about suicide, I guess what one of the first things I would think if someone is calling you to say, um, I've just done, you know, I've done this, I'm gonna kill myself. My my first thought point will, you don't really want to, otherwise you wouldn't have called me. I mean, I g I guess you know that's always something I immediately think about suicide, that you know, if you really wanted to do it, you just you know, you you would just do it. So is is that your opening to negotiate that I guess you know that they haven't done it yet, they're still alive, and there is therefore still hope.

SPEAKER_00 32:27

For sure. Yeah, the fact that we're talking means there's still hope. The fact that they're talking back to you means there's still hope. And that's the little tiny bit of hope that you still have to hang on to, but without um taking that as a guarantee that they won't, because they can at every any second they can still do it. Um so the stakes are high, they're we can't make mistakes, every word counts. Um, and that's where the whole emotional intelligence comes in. Like how fast, because you don't know how long you have, right? When we're doing business negotiations, we know that we rarely expect a deal to be done right there and then. Like it can take weeks, months, sometimes years when we're doing very high-stakes business deals. Uh, so we know we have time. We can go home, we can think about it. With suicide negotiations, it's there and then, and you don't know how long you have. You don't know if the person is gonna talk to you five minutes, ten minutes, an hour. So, therefore, literally every single word counts. And the self-composure, again, is extremely important. Um, to try to understand in the short period of time that you have what matters to this person, why are they doing this? Why are they are they serious about doing this? How real is this? Um, what is it that they need? And and and try to as fast as possible understand their need and create some form of bond to make them want to talk to you because the first thing is they don't. And then slowly open up, open up, open up, and again, don't ever make the mistake on any negotiation, but never assume. Never assume that you know, never assume that you booked a win, never assume anything. Um stay humble until the very last second, until there's an actual real agreement, or in this case they actually walk away with you um deciding not to not to do it.

SPEAKER_01 34:02

I'm a big uh I'm a big newsletter reader. I read a lot of newsletters, and um I was reading one on Sunday, uh, and it wasn't specif specifically about negotiation, but it was about the fear of rejection. But I guess that is something that must factor into people's ability or inability to be good negotiators, uh, because I guess if you fear rejection, then you're not gonna ask the questions that you need to ask to be able to move the negotiation forward because you're gonna fear that rejection or that embarrassment. Right. Um, and um I read something in this newsletter and I thought I'm gonna ask you about it because now for context, the newsletter is written by a guy I I like a lot, and he was writing about a guy who I also have a lot of time for, but I just thought to me this was one of the most ridiculous things I'd I'd ever heard. And he talked about the need to build effectively build up that muscle against fear of rejection. That you know, like effectively the more you get rejected, the more, the more you'll you'll be able to cope with it, and you know, it's that that heart pounding when you're about to open your mouth and ask a stupid question, or sort of ask a question that's um uh that's going to get you knocked back. Right. And the example this guy gives us his training is he wants you to go to Starbucks or go to the coffee shop every day and walk up to the counter and ask for a 10% discount on the coffee that you're about to buy.

SPEAKER_00 35:20

Right.

SPEAKER_01 35:20

And I don't know it's I just thought it just sounds so utterly ridiculous. That first of all, I mean, I think the rejection's guaranteed because if you're walking into a Starbucks or something, then there is no there is nowhere to deviate. You know, I I would think surely a much better training is to go into a car showroom and ask for a 10% discount where um you know where it's it's you're still gonna get rejected probably eight times out of ten, but there is also more chance of something coming out at the end. I thought I'm gonna ask you about that and see if I'm I'm I'm being unfair or if that you know if that is a strategy that people can use to start to build up that uh that rejection muscle and get better at negotiating.

SPEAKER_00 36:00

Yeah, I think for sure. And I use it in my trainings. Like I've done trainings where I ask people before you come to the training, you have to get something for free. Okay. I don't care where, I don't care when, but you have to get something for free, or I give them two choices. I said either you have to get something for free before coming to the training, or you have to find out a secret about somebody that they've never told anybody. Okay, so this is a cohort coming, and and and and it's the big group. It's a big group of leaders. I do this with the company uh, you know, that I've been working with for for years, and every year they invest a lot in leadership training, and they bring their best leaders of all different countries together. So these people don't know each other, but they've all been selected by their CEO to be uh part of this week. Um, and and there is a video that I send out before the training. I said, guys, you're coming in, we're gonna talk about negotiation, but before you come in, you have to either find out a secret about one of your cohort members or get something for free from wherever, from whenever.

SPEAKER_01 36:52

You're promoting an HR disaster.

SPEAKER_00 36:55

But you would be surprised. So there is a part of the a part of the group, and I've seen this uh years and years and doing it for different companies. There's a part that comes in that hasn't done it. They're like, I'm not playing along, I'm just not doing this. Okay? So this shows something about giving up before trying, or me not having earned the credibility of them telling them what to do because they don't know me yet, or they just were too afraid. And it's the third one that I'm interested in because then I want to understand why, like what's holding you back. And then they're like, Yeah, how would you have done it? And then I explain how I do it because I play along. I always try to get something for free in the country that I'm training, giving the training, uh, or find out a secret about some of the members of the cohort. And I tell them, and they said, Okay, how would you do it? I said, Listen, it is super simple. I gave you this assignment to all of you. So you're all on the same boat. There's already one thing that you have in common with somebody else of your cohort that needs that is, they both need to get the same thing. So in this situation, the best way to do it is to say, I'll tell you a secret, you tell me a secret. Boom. You both won the assignment. Um, and this is where um I come in and say, always focus on the need. What is the need of the other party? Because if they have a need that you have as well, you can like join problems and then resolve it together. And another way is also I always say, make your problem their problem. For example, I was traveling um to that country, and I asked the steward, I said, I really love this spoon, can I keep it? And he's like, No, you can't keep the spoon. And I'm like, listen, I'm doing an assignment, I need to have something for free, I'm landing in an hour, I don't have time to go anywhere else, I need to have something for free. And then he's just looking at me, and then I'm like, So how do we do it? And he doesn't even realize that. I say, How do we do it? Like, this is not his problem, this is my problem. And he goes into mode of problem solving, like, how do we do it? He thinks it's his problem and he wants to help me. And then he's like, Okay, okay, wait, let me ask. And then he goes and comes back and says, Listen, I can't give you the spoon, but somehow I can give you um the what do you call it? The blanket. Okay. Is it okay to give you a blanket? I'm saying, of course, thank you. Goodbye. So it's this little thing, and and and you can say, Well, that's not fair, or whatever, but I'm not, as you said, making him do anything he doesn't want to do. I'm just saying, I need something for free. How can we solve that?

SPEAKER_01 39:17

But and I think you know, f following on from that adding to that is that is that creativity thing we were talking talking about earlier as well. And uh it's not say directly analogy, but you know, because you're basically I think I guess what you're talking about there is bringing him into your problem and and it's it's now a we thing, not uh not an I thing.

SPEAKER_00 39:37

But what what's but I really and I encourage the the audience to do this often whenever you have a problem, whenever you're like dealing with the customer service or whatever, you there's something you need a solution for, involve them by using the we. How can we resolve it? What is it that we can do when they say there's nothing I can do? But what is it that we can do? You know, like make them think differently and and advocate for you to solve your problems.

SPEAKER_01 40:00

I absolutely totally agree. I wasn't disagreeing, I was I was gonna take it in on a slightly different angle of the creativity as well. That you know, very often, you know, particularly in business, you know, you're asking someone for a referral, you're you're you're asking somebody for for an introduction, you know, and and people go, Oh, I don't know anybody, you know, I've got no one I can send to you. And you know, I always find a good um a good rebuttal to that is I know you don't know anybody, but if you did know somebody, who would it be? Right. And then and then you know, very much like that, you know, making the IOET. You start thinking, oh well, actually, I I know I don't know anyone, but you know, if I did it would be Lucina Matt and and Steve and John, and uh I guess you know, people are very uh tunneled, you know, single direction, blinkered in in so many aspects of life that it's just it's just how how do you open those eyes? How do you I guess combine forces and make them make them think in a different way?

SPEAKER_00 40:54

And also people naturally want to help, and and we can tune into that. Um I mean, of course, there are the the the psychopaths and the narcissists and and and and I need to deal with them all the time, but the majority of people are caring people, the majority of people have empathy, the majority of people want to resolve conflict, the majority of people don't like conflict, so we can use that, and that's why I'm saying you don't have to be aggressive, you don't have to be loud, you don't have to if if you just stay connected to what is my need, what could be their need, and how can we resolve that together, and then you work on how can I remain calm, etc. etc. Like it's so much easier than people think. Even me with my title professional negotiator, it sounds intimidating for people. And a million times I've had negotiations where people tell me, Oh, that was much easier than I thought. They thought having to negotiate with me would be difficult or or complicated or they had to be like at their best or whatever. Whereas I'm like, my goal is to resolve conflict. The faster we can do it, the better. Because I'm not negotiating for the sake of negotiating, I'm negotiating for the sake of coming to an agreement. So if we can do that fast and collaboratively and in a cool way, of course I'm gonna choose that.

SPEAKER_01 42:08

So during this podcast, you've given lots and lots of uh, I guess, great strategies, great tactics, and and and and overall uh negotiating pieces of advice. But I mean, for anyone listening to this now, to if there was one immediate thing that they should do to go and learn, to go and implement, you know, whether that's somebody wanting to go and get a raise from their boss, you know, a child wanting to get a high higher allowance out of their parents. I mean, what's what's one immediate thing everybody should go and do right now?

SPEAKER_00 42:37

Yeah, well, I would say realize that you're already a negotiator. Because in order for you to be a good negotiator, you need to get off of the thing of, oh, I don't like it, I don't want it, I rarely negotiate, it's maybe once a year for a salary increase. It's not. You're already a negotiator, you're negotiating every single day. So by having that identity shift and that mindset shift, it already takes away a lot of the fears and the things that are blocking people from negotiating. You're already negotiating. So then the question is, how can I negotiate better? If you just want the skills and the tactics, it's super easy. Go on YouTube, ask AI. I have loads of videos on LinkedIn, on YouTube, you can learn from that. But if you really want to go from being good to great, it's work on yourself. And that also is something you've already done. Like everything you've done on personal development, on uh therapy, on healing, you name it. Anything that has helped you become a better version of yourself is helping you become a better negotiator. Because those are the things that will allow you to know yourself better, understand your triggers, um, be able to manage your ego and your emotions on negotiation table, and remain calm when the stakes are high. Remain calm when somebody says no, remain calm when you get a rejection, remain calm when somebody pushes you against the wall with an unreasonable demand. It's your capacity to remain calm that will set you apart from others and help you uh find the agreement in the in a situation of disagreement.

SPEAKER_01 44:03

How can everybody get in touch? How can people work with you? I mean, I know if someone's a big business, they can you know they can they can hire you for training and uh training and to work with them on negotiations. What about what about the guys who are just starting the businesses or interested to learn a new skill? Have you got any courses? Do you do any do you do any small events and and how can people reach out to you?

SPEAKER_00 44:21

No, unfortunately, I rarely work uh for the public like that. It's mainly for companies, governments, hospitals, etc. Uh, but I do share my knowledge uh uh actively on LinkedIn, on YouTube. I share loads of free stuff, so it's all there. Uh, used to have a podcast where I interviewed other professional negotiators, my colleagues, so it's all there, it's all free. Um, and then if you do work for a company or you're a decision maker, you want to bring me in, I give keynotes, trainings, and advisory on negotiations.

SPEAKER_01 44:48

Perfect. Well, we'll put everything in the show notes and uh we'll uh we'll we'll make sure everyone knows where to click and where to find it. Lucy, it's been an absolute pleasure. Uh, I'm gonna go home now and I'm gonna start to bully my daughter and make sure make sure she doesn't get any chocolate and I get I get what I want out of this. Thank you. Thanks a lot for being here.

SPEAKER_00 45:04

It was a pleasure, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 45:05

Thank you.