Positioned with Kimberly Knight
Our host, Kimberly Knight, is a certified coach, business consultant, educator, author, and speaker who has dedicated her life to helping women achieve their goals. Each week, Kimberly will dive into the issues that women face on their journey toward success. From relationships to parenting, work-life balance to entrepreneurship, financial security to personal growth, we cover it all.
In addition to exploring these important topics, we also share inspiring stories from other women who have overcome similar challenges to show you what’s possible. Plus, we’ll bring experts who can provide valuable insights and practical advice to help you take action and make things happen.
So, if you’re looking for a whole lot of wisdom wrapped in a little bit of girlfriend, tune in each week to the Positioned podcast. Kimberly is here to help you achieve the success you deserve!
Positioned with Kimberly Knight
45: Beyond the Stigma: Choosing the Right Therapist with Bernadette Kerr
Beyond the Stigma: Choosing the Right Therapist with Bernadette Kerr
In This Episode:
- Meet Bernadette Kerr: Kenyan-born licensed therapist, author, and certified ADHD coach with extensive experience in restorative justice, mindfulness, faith, spirituality, and mental health.
- Addressing Mental Health Stigma: Bernadette dives into the stigma surrounding mental health, particularly within the church and Christian communities, and offers ways to overcome it.
- Choosing a Christian Therapist: Learn how to discern whether a therapist truly aligns with Christian beliefs and the importance of asking the right questions.
- The Therapeutic Process: Gain insights into how understanding your own patterns, building trust, and being open to learning can enhance your therapeutic journey.
- Therapy as Sabbath: Explore the concept of therapy as a form of Sabbath, offering rest, validation, and aligning with God’s voice over others’ opinions.
- Contact Bernadette: Website - https://www.kisimabybernie.com and Instagram https://www.instagram.com/kisimabybernie
- Bernadette’s Book: Discover more of Bernadette’s wisdom in her book. Check it out here.
Join the Conversation:
- Have questions for Bernie about mental health, therapy, or hiring a therapist? Email us at admin@positionednetwork.com. We’d love to hear from you!
- Don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast, share this episode with your friends, and leave a review!
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Download your copy now -> Should You Take Your Ex Back
All right, welcome to the Positioned Podcast, where we position you for success in life, love and business. I am your host, kimberly Knight, and I am joined by licensed therapist Bernadette Kerr, who is here to talk about how to choose a mental health provider. So I just want to read a little bit of her accolades, because they are many. She is well-qualified to help us today and I can't wait. Bernie is a Kenyon-born licensed therapist and author. Tell us a little bit more about the book. She works with adults and engages through therapeutic work, conferences, wellness events, masterclasses, webinars, workshops. You name it events, masterclasses, webinars, workshops, you name it, she's there. She's also a certified ADHD coach. She also holds additional certifications in restorative justice, mindfulness, faith, spirituality and mental health, which we're going to talk about today suicide prevention and crisis management, compassion, fatigue, anxiety, depression, passion fatigue, anxiety, depression, racial trauma and PTSD. I tell you, I can't wait to hear what she has to share with us. Welcome, bernie.
Speaker 1:Thank you, thank you, it is so good to be here.
Speaker 2:Thank you for the invitation.
Speaker 1:I've loved talking about this topic because we love having you. Anyone who's listened to my podcast knows that I believe in Jesus, hallelujah. I believe in prayer and the power of prayer. I know deliverance works and therapy right, and they all have different roles in our lives, and I would love to hear your mindset on these things. And also, how do we find a therapist, because finding one can be daunting.
Speaker 2:Yes, okay. So I love this question so much because something happens when it comes to finding a therapist that we kind of disconnect from the reality of. We're always trusting different forms of systems and people, but we don't ask them about their faith. From when you are in kindergarten, you didn't ask your daycare worker if they were a believer. You didn't ask the school if they were a believer. When you had to go get your vaccines and your monthly checkups, annual checkups, you didn't ask them if they were a believer.
Speaker 2:When you went to college, you didn't ask all your professors if they were a believer. But what did you do? You trusted the institution to give you the service that you went in for, right. That doesn't change whether it's a believer who teaches it or doesn't. There is a way that they can teach it right, like with the fruit of the spirit. But the content one plus one is two, no matter who teaches it right, whether it's a parent at home, homeschooling, a teacher at school, college level one plus one equals two always, and so, when it comes to finding a therapist, I am a believer and I understand the value of talking to a believer.
Speaker 2:And I also know about systemic oppression and how it affects people's access to resources systemic oppression and how it affects people's access to resources. I understand that different schools of therapy. They actually don't believe in the therapist sharing about themselves because they feel like it can affect the clinical space that it takes away from the client, and so that can be a hindrance for certain people. But for certain people it doesn't have to be, because, again, when we are trained to understand how to help you see patterns patterns of health or patterns that are unhealthy, patterns that are congruent with your beliefs, your morals, your values, or incongruent behaviors that are in sync with what you believe or are not. Somebody who has the lens of a clinician, regardless of their belief system, can actually get you there. Now we're going to get into this when we're talking about a different part around. Is it necessary to have a Christian therapist? I think it is very helpful to also know when we are going in that whatever issue we're trying to work out in therapy, it's actually going to show up with your clinician.
Speaker 2:When we say what happens in the clinical space. We want to take it outside. But what's happening outside in your life, you bring it into the clinical space. So if you're distrusting, regardless of the clinician that you have, a level of distress is going to show up in the room. And so, as a clinician, I know that, even as a believer working with other believers, they can find a reason to say why therapy won't work, because their patterns and dynamics of dysfunction will show up with us. But the goal is that we learn how to practice in the clinical room, how to operate outside in a different way that nourishes you, that aligns with God's word, that aligns with the freedom and the liberty that he died on the cross to give to us. And whether I'm a believer and my client is a believer or not, if they have an experience of trauma, if they have experiences of assault and violence, if they grew up in families where there was a lot of disparaging beliefs or narratives, even in their work with me they automatically hold me as the figure that hurt them, and it might take time for them to actually trust the therapeutic process, and so one when you are getting ready to find a therapist like really be clear on. What is it that I would like them to help me with and what am I open to learning that I actually didn't even know was an issue? All right, one of our goals is to also bring up blind spots. As somebody who's having an objective experience of you, I can see things from a vantage point you don't see, and are you willing to hear? You don't have to believe, you don't have to agree. Are you willing to hear and explore? And so, just coming in with a level of curiosity of there's some stuff that I am an expert on my life. Nobody has lived my life and so I'm coming to tell my therapist about expertise of my life, but I also trust that they have an expertise of training that allows them to see the experiences in my life from a certain vantage point, and I'm willing to hear and I'm willing to let them come and walk alongside me, because, if you're, one of the best things that I learned in my training is, my job is to not come to tell you how to live your life. My job is to walk alongside you in the ways you let me.
Speaker 2:So if somebody doesn't let me into a certain area, I'm not going to barge my way in because that could be traumatizing. It violates consent, it violates trust, it shifts the power dynamic. I start to take control over somebody else's life, and that's not what I came for. So if you don't let me into a particular area, I can name it and I'm also going to walk alongside where you let me, and so just helping people understand that, like really do the introspective work of this is what I'm coming in for right now. As far as I understand it and I know that this person that I'm going to be working with can help me understand it differently and we're in collaboration with each other, so I'm not coming to tell them, like, why aren't you making therapy work for me? Because we're working together but I'm also not so controlling of the conversation that I'm trying to be my own therapist, but I hired a therapist to help me. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1:It does, it does. So I'm hearing you say that understanding the therapeutic process right, whatever the modality, is very important, so that, going in, we're at us what to do, but to point out some blind spots and some patterns that may need to be looked at to make the adjustments to get where we want to go.
Speaker 2:Yes, and then now we collaborate and like what is going to be the treatment goal, right? So once we've kind of started that kind of introductory conversation and getting a little bit of background, then we want to pinpoint, like what is what is going to be the goal of therapy, and goals evolve, right. So we check in every so often and so that's kind of the therapeutic process part of things for preparation. The logistical and like tactical part of things I would say you know, please know. If you have insurance coverage or you're going to be paying out of pocket, recognize what limitations might be in your budget, right. So for folks who don't have insurance, we operate on something called a sliding scale. A lot of training institutes sometimes are free just because they want their clinicians to have folks to work with and they get supervision, and so that's a really great outlet for folks who financially are strapped and might not have insurance coverage. If you do have insurance coverage, just know what your co-pays or co-insurances deductibles are a deductible of $3,500 before they start to pay. And so knowing these things helps you to really know. Okay, am I going in asking for sliding scale upfront? Am I going in knowing that I'm going to have to invest heavily in the beginning, but after that for the rest of the year my co-pays are going to be $0, right, and that way you can also kind of budget and have an expectation of even frequency. Right, because I have folks who I see weekly because they can manage that. I have folks who I see twice a month, folks I see once a month because that's what their budgets and their resources, their current state can facilitate. And so the logistical end, I would say checking with insurance.
Speaker 2:You know we're in a time of like, um, telehealth, uh, thankfully, which is helping folks really um attend their appointments without issue.
Speaker 2:Because before, right, run into train delays, run into traffic on your way, your session's gone. But now you can kind of log in anywhere but always know that you need to have a private confidential space. Like I actually cannot have a session if you need to have a private confidential space. Like I actually cannot have a session if you don't have a private confidential space, the moment a distraction or extra person is in the room, it changes the dynamic of what we can, we can create that day. And so you know logistically, like know where you're going to be If you have to be in a car, cause I get it fine, but are you alone in the car? You cannot be in a car because I get it fine, but are you alone in the car? You cannot be in a taxi or at the beach. These are experiences I've had at the beach, in the beach tent, with their girlfriend. I'm like we cannot meet and so you know things like that.
Speaker 2:Um, and then have a notebook and pen and paper wow when you go class you show up with those things just to learn a subject. How much more when you come to learn about your life and so really coming ready to learn right, part of the curiosity it's I'm going to learn something. Today we have an hour to kind of process like multiple themes and I need to meditate on these things. I need to reflect on these things, gather evidence of these things. I need to reflect on these things, gather evidence of these things, and this is not necessarily always possible for folks, but I would encourage that. Do life in community, because even part of those themes and those blind spots, when you go to someone and be like my therapist said that I jumped to conclusions and your friends be like we've been telling you conclusions, we could see, you know they can help you gather the evidence. Or they can say, hmm, I never thought of you in this way but I'm wondering what you said that made the therapist maybe here. Or I wonder how I see you right as your friend. I see you in a particular light and so I might not see those things. But we can go. We can go in like investigation, discovery together. You know, like as a therapist, I have a therapist and my best friend is a therapist and I'll be like best friend.
Speaker 2:She said xyz, and she was like I don't see that about you, you know. I, I told her, I was like, yeah, she was like, you know, like, um, there's a little bit of pride when you think about this era. And I was like me, prideful, you know, and she was like I don't think of you as prideful. And then we, we like broke down what? What is the definition of pride? Puffed up in an area, thinking you are beyond reproach in an area, right, because I'm an expert now, I'm a therapeutic expert, I can't be corrected, right and so. And then so, when we both kind of broke it down, I was like, all right, the behavior not necessarily my character as a person, but my behavior in this particular area was puffed up and so, like, now I can understand what humility might look like, and so, part of also being in community, um, because even the bible talks about um, in the, in the, in the, in the presence of multiple kind of wise counsel, there's safety right.
Speaker 1:So, one.
Speaker 2:therapist is a person of wise counsel, and the people God has allowed us to do life with can also be wise counsel.
Speaker 1:So good.
Speaker 2:Even in therapy we're talking about how to pick a loss counsel better, Right, Because sometimes we give people access and proximity to us who are not lost, who are not healthy and hopeful towards our destiny. And so, yeah, from like the therapeutic piece, definitely recommend the curiosity, coming ready to learn that certain things about yourself that you might not be ready to intend to give expertise about your life, your experiences and being honest there. And then logistically you know, a private, confidential space to know about your insurance coverage and how you're going to be covering for services or if you're looking for a no fee or no fee service. And then pen and paper ready to learn and then find community to kind of process with, if you can.
Speaker 1:Oh, I am loving these starter tips, oh my gosh. And the passion that you have for this area is is evident. And you brought up so many of the things that I would bring up when I'm working in my singles groups, right? Or my coaching groups, right, doing don't. Don't do this alone, right, you have to have community. You must have community, and father created us that way, right To, to desire to be in community and have that need to have people speak into our lives. And I always say you need somebody who knows you and somebody who knows you. So somebody who K-N-O-W-U so. I see that in you, but let's work that through. Oh yeah, I guess we did see that, right, so that's somebody who knows you. That cracks me up. And then somebody who knows you, n-o-u right, who can say, no, don't do that. No, he's not the one you know. So, doing life in community where people can check you iron sharpens iron, right?
Speaker 1:I also love when you talk about being intentional about the process. I've never, ever, ever thought to bring a notebook Like I don't know why not. I am an avid note taker but never thought of that. Oh my gosh, that was such a good tip. So you gave us everything from. You know what to expect frequency, you talked about. You know how to make it really work and make it even more impactful. You know, by bringing it to your trusted community. What about the questions to ask in selecting right, because I know that for some people, finding one and narrowing it down and seeing someone that you can therapeutically align with is not that easy. So what kind of suggestions do you have for us about that?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I always encourage like having. So let me start. If you've never been in therapy before, we can talk about like one set of questions. If you've been in therapy before because you have a little bit of experience, then I'd also encourage like pulling off of experience. Then I'd also encourage like pulling off of experience.
Speaker 2:But, in general, I say, like, just ask the clinician about themselves how long they've been doing this, for if they do subscribe to a particular style or modality. So modality means like a therapeutic philosophy of sorts, right? So when I talk about like somebody who's trauma informed, let's say somebody who's trained in CBT, which is cognitive behavioral therapy, right, there's a particular vantage point that they use for treatment of. You know, our thoughts affect our emotions, affect our behavior. So they're always looking for thought, emotional, behavior sequences. And then there's like, let's say, dbt, which is dialectical behavioral therapy, and we're always looking for how opposite truths are coexisting or where they create tension and how to create area, right. And then there's like psychodynamic, we're looking for like how, um, themes and experiences from our early, like childhood life are still playing out in our adult lives and are showing up in multiple different spaces in the same way, psychoanalytical, how they are conscious and it can guide, guide our conscious decision-making and behavior. And so they're digging a lot for the unconscious, right? So when you ask a therapist and you don't have to know what that means, right, you're just asking do you subscribe to a particular style of therapy? Can you tell me more? How has it shown up with somebody who's going to be coming to you for XYZ that I'm coming to you with. So, let's say, anxiety, I'm coming to you to work with you on anxiety. So how do you use psychodynamic therapy to treat anxiety? And then the therapist can explain a little bit and you know whatever else that you might want to know about. Do you accept insurance and all these different things? And then another question is around faith and all these different things. And then another question is around faith.
Speaker 2:So in all my profiles online in my website, it is clearly stated that I am trained around integrating spirituality into my social work practice, into my therapy practice, and I also share that I'm a believer. There are different platforms that I'm already a part of that automatically tell you that I'm a believer and I also say for folks who would like to integrate this we believer. And I also say for folks who would like to integrate this, we can. Because I also work with a lot of non-believers and so if somebody has an explicitly shared this from their website, or if you called your insurance for referrals and they didn't tell you these things about the therapist you're reaching out to, you can ask right, like tell me a little bit about like do you, do you integrate spirituality, specifically do integrate Christianity into the therapeutic practice?
Speaker 2:And this is the part where, when I was mentioning before some some schools of therapists and modalities, they do allow for a clinician to share with. Some schools don't, and I always give this disclaimer, even for our faith community. Every Christian does not believe the same Christ. Let me talk about it.
Speaker 2:When somebody professes that they are a Christian, they might not believe in Jesus Christ, the Lord and Savior, came, was born of a virgin, dwelt amongst us, surrendered himself to the cross. You better preach Right Rose. Up on the third day after taking keys of hell to the grave Came, dwelt amongst his disciples, ascended into heaven and told us he's coming again. Gave us the Holy Spirit right. Everybody does not believe that Jesus.
Speaker 1:You took us to church, come on.
Speaker 2:And so even asking that right Of like when you say Christianity, who do you profess? Who do you profess Christ to be? That's the spirit. I don't get offended by that question. I love when people ask me that I was like don't come and trust me blindly, right? Because again, part of some people's relationship pathology is that they trust easily. They assume somebody who's in a position of power is automatically beyond reproach, and so I love when people ask me like Jesus is Lord.
Speaker 2:He came right, because even it says the demons know and do tremble, but they don't believe. And so you have to ask somebody because, right, like Mormons, can I say all of this on your podcast? Mormons believe that they're Christian, witnesses believe they're Christian, catholics believe they're Christian, we believe we're Christian. Many other schools believe they're Christians.
Speaker 2:Right, and so just understanding that because also that is going to impact the ways that you're being advised from a faith perspective. That you're being advised from a faith perspective and so I would say, like those are, let's say, questions for somebody who hasn't been in therapy before, is really seeking to know, like understanding of the style of therapy, what to expect. And then about the clinician themselves, their history of experience, and then, if they believe, if you have been in therapy before, it doesn't guarantee that if you have a good experience or a bad experience, that it was because the clinician was good or not good. Right because, uh, even, um, is it in second timothy when it says in the last days, you will keep up teachers according to like the ears right, even in we do that. We sometimes pick people who don't challenge us.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:So, because if the enemy is wanting to keep you bound in a certain area and you're actively seeking the liberty that God promised you, you have to be aware of how you have defined God. Defined God right. Some people think of God as like where were you? And so?
Speaker 2:they put him in the seat of the assailant, in the seat of the person who rejected them, betrayed them, abandoned them. And so you come into therapy with that same idea, even as a professing believer, and so part of even if you've had experience before and it was wonderful or it was horrendous, it is not because of the clinician. You were a different person then and you create a different dynamic with each person in front of you. And so I would say for anyone who's been hurt in therapy before, is worried about trying again, is frustrated with the process, your life is worth every effort. If you went to a school and the school flooded, would you stop looking for a school? If you went to a school and there was a fire, if you went to a school and the teachers were on strike, you wouldn't stop seeking learning. How much more for your own liberty? Right, like the kingdom suffers violence.
Speaker 2:We don't love that scripture, we use it, but we are like ha ha, like I'm going to the enemy's camp. No, no, christ preached a gospel of suffering, meaning like we have a real enemy who does not want us to lay claim of the life, of abundance and liberty and freedom that Christ called us to. And it is my job to be when the enemy comes, like in the garden of Eden, did God really say? And you say yes, god said I could be free. You have to say a resounding yes or else you will eat of the fruit of knowledge that we were not meant to have, which means we try to put ourself in the seat of God in our lives.
Speaker 2:And so, just if you've been in therapy before, regardless of the experience, come in with questions, come and say this is what I found to work, this is what I found not to work. Can you integrate these things that I found to work, whether it's giving me homework, not giving me homework, giving me worksheets don't give me worksheets using examples in the room, not giving me examples in the room. Sending me videos, sending me books and quotes and things. Bring up what has worked for you before and also let this clinician show you that there's a vast majority of tools and resources that they can bring to you that you might not have liked before as well.
Speaker 1:Oh, this is so good. Oh my gosh. Ok, I don't know if I want to run around the room I speak in tongues. I'm not quite sure what I want to do. Yet you have given us so much. Oh my gosh, what Christ? What Christ? Oh, tell me, yeah, I guess we're going to go the other day, because I hear so many say, oh yeah, let's go in, oh yeah, let's go in. I hear so many say, oh God, this God, that, what God? I need to know what God. Because everybody saying God is not saying the same God. And he said many Christ will come right. So saying I am, he's like, don't be deceived, because even the elect can be deceived. And I love what you're saying here.
Speaker 1:You know, just because someone has a license, just because someone's been practicing for a long time or professes a certain thing, does not mean number one, they're the clinician for you. Just, you know, just getting at the baseline. And then number two doesn't mean they're good at their trade, doesn't mean they're even called to it. And then you do us the whammy. And this about took me out when you said you know, the enemy can use this to keep you bound. Now you're seeking your freedom, but if you're not discerning and you haven't asked the questions, and then the deepest recesses of your life? In theory, right um, because if you have a good therapeutic alliance then you can do that and trust that. You know once trust is built. But just because this person is in a place of authority and you said this so eloquently does not mean you should blindly give them your trust like, oh my gosh, yeah, I tell my, I tell my clients, especially the ones we started.
Speaker 2:I was like I'm still a stranger. You've only known me for an hour, hello. Or when you even after I've worked with somebody for a month, you've only known me for four hours and for a majority of that you were talking, not me, right?
Speaker 2:so you know, trying to trying to help people have context, because, oh, I've been with bernie for six months, yeah, six months. Six months counts as 24 hours. You've known me for a day. Oh, okay, you've known me for a day. Okay, I do want you to trust the process, but I don't want you to trust me so blindly, right, even even I'm prone to error, right, but you know to your point of what you're thinking about.
Speaker 2:Prayer I go into prayer and consecration always for my clients god let me show up in this room in a way that hinders them, in a way that, like that um, soothes their demons instead of irritating them, like I want to be an irritant to everyone that is trying to lay hold of you, but I want to do it with love, like god. Let your love flow through me, your compassion flow through me, your wisdom, because even love is firm as well as patient indeed my love for a client means I don't tolerate when they're playing games and therapy.
Speaker 2:I I'm like, hey, we've been trying to talk about your like this year trauma. You've been dancing around it for three sessions. You ready or do you want to take a break? Because I honor one that you? You are investing value and if you're not getting value back, I'm also not getting value back when I have to to go before God and to be like what did you do with the gifts that you let your clients play around in session and pay you to still be in the same position? I hate that. Right, it's like. My goal is that you will not need me and my goal is that I will show you how much you need God so that you will always be pursuing God, whether it's in therapy out of therapy, in coaching out of coaching, in the community that you pick. In the communities, you don't pick. When you're practicing forgiveness, when you're practicing boundaries, like, are you keeping God at the center of it all, and did I help you to also see that God is the same way? He is firm and gentle.
Speaker 2:Yes, lying on land Love does not tolerate seeing the ones they love hurt, hurt. So I don't want to tolerate seeing you hurt or stay in pain or bondage, and so it's not a disrespect to me, it's a disrespect to your own healing process, and so I'm very clear.
Speaker 2:I'm trying to tell people like I, I fast and pray to show up well, I would love to show up well wow you still need to show up kind of like what you're saying it's not just prayer, it's not just fast, it's not just deliverance, it's also therapy, because even in therapy we're practicing how to do life with someone, so we can go out there and do life better.
Speaker 1:Yes, every time I think like this can't get any better. It just gets better and better and better, Right? So you know I'm I'm sitting here, I'm listening and I have worked with a lot of mental health professionals, so I should give that caveat a lot when I say a lot, hundreds and, I'll be honest, maybe even thousands, because because of the work that I do outside of the podcast Right, and I have known all types, I have seen everything from Satanists to. That's why, when you said it, I was like I got a testimony to tell to people who should have stopped practicing and gone on to do something different.
Speaker 2:Please don't represent my field and you don't even like people going to tech work with computers.
Speaker 1:They're going through compassion fatigue themselves and didn't sit themselves down.
Speaker 2:Yes, I was like, so you're burnt out, you cannot take anyone beyond.
Speaker 1:You cannot. You need to sit down and get healed yourself first. Hear from the Lord. Is this still what I'm supposed to be doing right now, in this season or whatever? Because you're doing more damage than you are good. And I'm sitting here and going wow, the integrity behind you. Know, I'm doing this work with you Like I'm paying a price in order to do this work with you, so I can hold you to a different accountability in the therapeutic process, because I'm in it for real, right. So when you're telling me you're fasting and praying, how you show up and for your clients, that's a whole different level. This is why, when you say, oh yeah, I'm a Christian, I need to know more, I need to know more, right, and I'm sitting here and I'm thinking about some of the experiences I've had professionally and personally.
Speaker 1:And I remember after my divorce, I was so devastated and I did my best to go find counseling and I was. I didn't know whether to cry or to laugh after this, so I chose to laugh and I went to this woman's house. She had her office in the basement and she told me she had been practicing like 40 years, and I told her what had transpired during my marriage and the subsequent separation and divorce. And I said I'm looking to work this stuff out so that it's not showing up in other areas of my life. And she fell asleep during the session. She literally nodded off and fell asleep and I was so tickled and I literally took out my phone and I texted my friend. I don't know whether to wake her up or give her a blanket. I didn't know what to do so I just sat there for about a good 15 minutes now, and I know how long it was. Yeah, she was asleep, she was knocked out, and I know it was 15 minutes because I'm texting my friend like, oh my gosh, maybe is she having a medical event.
Speaker 1:Because I'm saying maybe I'm thinking, you know, she's like, you know, when you're, when you're sleeping, and your head snaps, her head snapped and she woke up. And then she proceeded to tell me she didn't think that I was therapy ready. When I tell you, I was so tickled. I was so tickled. I was like, how would you possibly know? I said, well, okay, thank you so much. Um, I was grateful because, you know, I was really at a very vulnerable stage and place in my life and I said, you know, father would not let me be deceived into going into the wrong therapeutic relationship, and it was so blatant that all I could do was laugh. I had to laugh, I had to laugh and text my friend right.
Speaker 1:But I have to tell you and I've had some other experiences as well, some that have been fabulous over the course of the years and some that haven't and that's why I can truly appreciate someone like you who is really called to the work and understands the depth of responsibility that you have before the Lord for what you do, right? He said in all things, you're supposed to do things as unto the Lord, not as unto people. But everyone takes that differently. Everyone is not coming with the same level of dedication. And then we also do sloppy agape. I call it sloppy agape Now. So you know, oh yeah, sloppy agape Now. So you know, oh yes, sloppy agape. So so I'm, I'm called to counsel, but you, you haven't studied, you're not credentialed, you know. You, you don't like people, You're not sure you're called to um, to the work, you're tired of the work, right? So those kinds of things go into it again. So I call I call it that's my little term sloppy agape I love it, I'm.
Speaker 2:I wrote it down. It's like I'm starting. Is that what you were?
Speaker 1:doing you, writing that down yes, yes, I.
Speaker 2:Um, where are we showing up with sloppy and gaffy? Okay, I, I hate that phrase, yeah.
Speaker 1:And she said it with such confidence and I'm like, lady, you still have drool on the side of your mouth Right there, and you have the audacity to tell me I am not therapy ready. It was so laughable I'm not even going to address this, but, that to be said, it took oh. And then I had another one and I look back now and I was like what was the enemy doing? Because it took me so long to get free. It took me so long, it took me almost a decade to get free, because I didn't get what I needed. At the time I went to another therapist and really I was like, oh my gosh, this person would be really, really helpful. And she said I would love to work with you and everything was in place and in space and it was all good and it was going to even be covered by my insurance. She was a believer. I knew where she went to church. We had that discussion about what is Christianity to you and all this good stuff. This is just had to be my.
Speaker 1:My children were still in elementary school, so this had to be 25 years ago, and I made the appointment for the next visit. She didn't show and I was like, oh my gosh, maybe I got it wrong, you know, didn't show. So I called, I left a message, never, never got a call back. Well, fast forward about a year, about a year, and I get a phone call from her new assistant saying that I owed a copay for the visit that I had a year ago. Well, she knows your phone, that she. I said okay, and it turns out, turns out the person that she hired I knew personally. Sure did. I said okay. First of all, and y'all know me, I call everybody dear one or sweetheart, sweetheart Does that sound like me, okay, first of all.
Speaker 1:Second of all, a year later. Third of all, she didn't even show for that visit. So please, please, if she has any questions about this, copay, ask her to give me a call. I would love to have that discussion because she just like literally disappeared from my life. So I had some very interesting experiences up front and now, looking back right on the other side of healed, looking back, oh my gosh, what was the enemy's plan here? Right, and it wasn't until you said that that I even started putting all the twos and twos together right to make four.
Speaker 1:But I have to tell you this right here this show is going to be so impactful to the people of God that I am excited for what it means for our mental health and well-being, for what it means for our mental health and wellbeing. And, that said, we have got to talk about the stigma in the church of God and in the body of Christ, about mental health treatment, counseling, therapy. It's almost like you have to go like underground to do it, like you know, can't let anybody know, right? Or the only person I can go to is my pastor, and your pastor is supposed to pastor you. He may, she may or may not be able to give you the therapeutic work that you need to do. They may or may not be equipped for that that you need to do.
Speaker 2:They may or may not be equipped for that. Yes, pastoral counseling and years of training to become a therapist is very different. Also, counseling. Counseling is advice given, right. He can advise you from understanding of the Bible, advise you from maybe other parishioners that they have counseled who've gone through similar things. But they are not looking at you and your dynamics, your systems, your family, your background, your history and conceptualizing it in scientific knowledge that God allowed us to have access to knowledge for as a therapist, right. So I support pastoral counseling, right. It's part of what we're saying of in in um amongst, like many wise counselors, their safety. I support it.
Speaker 2:But I think it is one unfair to to yourself to show up looking for one thing where it doesn't exist. If I go looking for oranges and an apple tree, is it the apple tree that failed me or the orange tree that failed me? Or is it me who tried to fit right, like a square peg in a round hole, right? So when you're going to a pastor for pastoral counseling, be clear what am I going to counseling for? But if you're looking for therapy and you go to a pastor, be clear that you're going to leave disappointed. And it's not the pastor who failed you. It's not the Lord who failed you. You went to the wrong place for the wrong thing.
Speaker 2:Okay, that's one. Two stigma how I understand stigma, especially in the Christian community. Stigma also points to where there is idolatry, because if God says that there is in the wise counsel, there is safety, seek wise counsel, count the cost before you do something. And in the day and age that we live in, like even Luke was a doctor and so, like the Bible already tells us that God values health and wellness and the medical and behavioral health field, you go and say, no, you just made yourself God over what God said.
Speaker 2:So stigma is actually idolatry and every idol has that. So, but when you go to somebody who tells you that they're showing you where they are still lacking knowledge, where they're still lacking surrender, where they're still lacking freedom, where they're lacking understanding and so but I think we going back to what we're talking about with authority. I know I was raised the same way of like anyone who's in a position of leadership in the church. It's almost like their word is infallible. And now I'm like, oh, you're a man just like me, called to an office. I respect the office, I respect the anoint to be pursuing Christ so that if this person ever comes into disagreement or in conflict with what the word says, that I can also be able to parse out what they're saying.
Speaker 2:So, yes, then there's communities or faith systems like Word of Faith, faith systems like word of faith. Word of faith tells you confess and it's done. So, meaning that now you go to say, oh, if I'm not well, it's because I didn't confess well enough, but I make myself savior, I make myself Holy Spirit in a way, right, and so even the going back to like who do you profess Jesus to be? Does he have power or Do my words have power? Because if my words have power, then I start going into works without faith, right, like I'm. Word of faith is actually not word of faith. It is word of me thinking I am savior, I am Holy spirit, and so even then, like part of the stigma can be connected to like just a false gospel of you know, if you just confess and believe it is done.
Speaker 2:Moses needed his father-in-law to give him wise counsel about appointing the 70 elders to help him with his work. So you know, like if they didn't call it therapy, but that was counsel, right, it was counsel and wisdom from the lord. So that even now that we live in a day and age where communities are not structured in the same way they were in biblical times, where there was a structure of multi-generational households, there was a structure of wisdom passed down, there was a structure of men who sat at the gate and the women who took on the younger women and counseled them and mentored them. We don't have the same structures always available, especially in Western individualistic societies versus collectivist cultures, and so we have to be mindful that the stigma sometimes also comes from trying to fit a collectivist Bible into an individualist society. But we don't have the same parameters available for us. So prayer works. Prayer, one of our most powerful weapons. Fasting works one of our most powerful weapons.
Speaker 2:Amen to that, and even the Bible talks about when, when you run into somebody who is cold and hungry and you tell them God bless you and go your way.
Speaker 1:Come on.
Speaker 2:Right, like you fail them. In James right, it says you give them a meal and a food and you also tell them about. God bless you, right. But I don't say that you are more of a believer and less of a believer because you are in poverty. Come on, which is kind of what we kind of say. It's like you're more of a believer or less of a believer because you're suffering from depression or anxiety. Those things are a product of a fallen world. They're a product of having a real enemy, but they're not a product of you not believing enough or God not loving you enough either.
Speaker 2:So part of stigma is also sometimes believing in a false gospel or truly missing the heart of God for his people and then hindering people from being able to experience the heart of God in multiple avenues.
Speaker 2:How many people have received the heart of God at a supermarket because the person who was checking them out did it as unto the Lord and was kind and patient and understanding, because somebody paid for their groceries right In therapy? Same thing you can experience the heart of God because your clinician is coming in like truly operating in the gift, the anointing and the calling that God blessed them to be in in order to help you understand some of the things you don't tell other people because it's so painful or it's so vulnerable and so sensitive that you're willing to trust them there and they can actually speak to you. Where was God when I was experiencing assault? He was right there with you, right. But also when we understand that the person who was the person who was causing harm it is because of their lack of knowing who god is that they could do that right we will right.
Speaker 2:And so I think, just when we understand like stigma is connected to idolatry, it is connected to a misconception, a misinterpretation of the bible, is connected to uh, the person who might be giving you that advice is connected to their areas of shortcoming or ignorance, or arrogance of the ignorance. Yeah, we still have to go to the word for ourselves, but we also still have to say if I had a broken leg, am I going to pray over the broken leg or am I going to pray over it for speedy healing and still go get a cast.
Speaker 2:That's right, that's right, and so come get your mental health cast. Yes, Get your cast. We'll pray for your speedy healing. We pray that God brings divine revelation in the room right. But that's part of the healing. The cast is part of the healing. It's part of the healing. The medicine is part of the healing. So even stigma around medication.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh. And you know I was just talking to someone who put their children on medication and the pushback they got from their family and and from their church was really substantial. And she was like listen, they are out of control. You don't want them to come to your house because right now they're out of control and when they take the medication they're much better able to get the tools they need.
Speaker 2:That's it.
Speaker 2:You actually are stable enough to now take on the tools and the type of behavioral interventions that I'm trying to teach you, because sometimes we're so depressed, so anxious, so behaviorally dysregulated we can't even hear, we can't hear the intervention we're trying to implement. So, yeah, and you actually know Anissa from part of like the well, she said this one thing in passing and I was like, oh my gosh, kind of like how you said a sloppy agape and I was like she was like I don't take a yes or a no, I don't take a no from somebody who can't give me a yes. She was like whoa.
Speaker 1:I have said that. I have said that, mm-hmm. I have said that.
Speaker 2:I have said that this person who cannot come and help me with my children can also not tell me not to put them on medication.
Speaker 1:That's right. Have no opinion where you have no responsibility. You have no opinion where you have no responsibility. She's getting ready to write this down again. But have no opinion where you have no responsibility, and that goes not only for someone else's mental health if you're not part of their solution. People's marriages oh, amen, wall, um, and I I I think I did a podcast on that y'all, even with celebrities, stop talking about other people's marriages and relationships if you have no authority. If father hasn't called you to intercede, hush your mouth. And if he did call you to intercede, he probably also gave you a gag order on that too, excuse me, okay.
Speaker 2:You have no responsibility and you have an opinion can also be gossip, right, or it can be trying to to behave like the Holy spirit in somebody else's life and that's blasphemous to the Holy Spirit, right, and like we really have to be mindful that everything we do is either unto the Lord or unto the kingdom of darkness. There is no in between. There's no gray. If it's not glorifying the Lord, it is glorifying the enemy.
Speaker 1:Come on.
Speaker 2:And so, like exactly what you're saying of like, I'm not going to have an opinion where I don't have responsibility, but I'm going to have intercession. God, if this is the right thing, let it work. Help my friend who's struggling with your children, give them wisdom, give them access to resources, a community, let a random person on the train just be moved to you know, be grieved in their heart for them, et cetera. Right, intercede, because I'm also interceding when I'm like God. I don't want to do um, like this is this, is this? Feels like it's beyond myself, and one of the best things that God ever told me, um, or just even the word ever told me, is by this they shall know you're my disciples, by all your love. The moment I love somebody and just say, wow, listening to what you just told me overwhelms me. I can't imagine what living it means. Sometimes the person needed to hear wow just the validation wow
Speaker 2:all they needed to hear. Because sometimes I'm like, what intervention, what worksheet you know, what theory, what you know psychodynamic, like concept? What distinction can I give them? It's like I'm so grateful that, even after all the craziness of this week, that you decided to show up today, because even sometimes I pause, I'm like how do you want to use today? How does it best serve you today? Because I don't feel like we can dive into some of the harder things because your week has already been full of that. And so how do we find rest here? Because even therapy can just be Sabbath. Come on Sabbath, like God did not Sabbath because he was tired. He Sabbath because he created the world to operate between work and rest. And so sometimes, like therapy can be the only Sabbath somebody gets. It's like let's utilize it in that way.
Speaker 2:And so go back to stigma. That was the original question. Sometimes listening to people's opinions continues to keep you out of order with the Lord, in disobedience to the Lord, and so we really have to be mindful of whose voice do we glorify above God's voice, and if it is our own, we need to lay it down. If it's our family member, lay it down. If it is a spiritual leader, pastor, whomever lay it down, because if it's not the voice of the Lord that is at the helm of your life, you are automatically going to be steered in the wrong direction. And so I would say, like stigma, we have the choice to accept or reject advice, and so if somebody is like I don't know if you should have your kids on medication, thank you for letting me know.
Speaker 1:Thank you for sharing. That's one of my favorite. Thank you so much for sharing. Thank you for sharing. Thank you for sharing.
Speaker 2:I'm going to do nothing, you know usually I just give that resting.
Speaker 1:My daughter calls it resting profit. Face right, I just oh.
Speaker 2:Usually I just give that resting.
Speaker 1:My daughter calls it resting prophet face right. I just Bianca has that, Thank you. Thank you so much, thank you.
Speaker 2:So much but I'm just going to be quiet. But exactly and even that part of like not taking things personally, when somebody gives you advice, they've shown you their heart.
Speaker 1:That's it. You know you're coming back to the show, right, that's it. You know you're coming back to the show, right, thank you. You know you have to come back. First of all, you preached a whole sermon. I mean we can pass the plate and give the benediction, give the invitation for everybody to come to Christ today, because you did everything from soup to nuts, ma'am, and I am loving every single minute. You have got to come back, so make us a promise You'll come back.
Speaker 2:I will.
Speaker 1:Okay, cause we're going to have you back. We're definitely going to have you back because this I think this is going to be one of the most impactful shows, because it is not just about okay, you know. I mean I could have done a show about how to select a therapist. I could have done it with the work that I've done outside of this. I could have done that.
Speaker 2:Especially with your sleeping habits.
Speaker 1:But you brought things that I have never in all of the years that I've been doing this work. You've brought things to bear that I've never even heard talked about in therapeutic circles, right, and the irony is that, well, we'll have to talk offline about some of this stuff, but when you come back again, I'm I just I can't even wait. I am so excited. To me, this is one of the most impactful and one of the best ever. To me, this is one of the most impactful and one of the best ever, and I know that father is going to take it far and wide, because his people are hurting and that is not his heart. And also, the times that we are living in, people have got to be mentally healthy and prepared, because I'm telling you what is coming.
Speaker 2:The worst is coming.
Speaker 1:Yeah, all of this until now was just a warmup, but all of now.
Speaker 2:God's mercy in reminding us that he's still on the throne. But to listen.
Speaker 1:Yes, listen, yes, yes. And he said if you grow weary with the footmen, what do they show up with? Horses? Like what? Right, this was the practice, because this this up until now, he was like this is this was me addressing the stuff, addressing the stuff that we've been avoiding, and I'm going to say this in closing, and then, of course, I want your closing remarks. What we don't address will sooner or later address us. Anything that we don't deal with is going to deal with us. That's it.
Speaker 2:That is my favorite thing Like when you don't master it will master you.
Speaker 1:And because I think we're living in a dispensation of time we don't have 40 years for the backside of the desert to learn lessons, right, everything has been sped up right, and then we add AI to it, so it exponentially. Oh, we can't even go there. If I went there today, if I could walk that dog today. But I think that we are living in a dispensation of time where things are so rapidly changing and things are happening so fast. The word says one thing after another, one thing on the heels of another, right that the reaper would overtake the sower Before you can even stop to think about something or get something fully in place. You have to have your mental capacity just so that you have the margin in your being to be able to do the things that God is calling you to do, to be able to hear being to be able to do the things that God is calling you to do, to be able to hear. Like you said, you can't even hear what to do next, because you're still dealing with what happened to you 20 years ago. Oh, my Lord, I wish somebody had told me. I wish somebody had told me, but now that I know, now that. We know we can't. I know, and not only that, we have to tell it far and wide, we have to.
Speaker 1:So a few things. Number one I am going to put your contact info in the show notes, because everybody needs Bernie, everybody needs Jesus. Let me be clear Everybody needs Jesus first, everybody needs Jesus first. But Bernie has Jesus, the real Jesus, the crucified, risen and coming again. Jesus, amen, amen. Just in case any of y'all are doubting the real Jesus, we settled that. We settled that. We settled that now, and also I'm going to put the link to your book. Can you please tell us what is the name of your book? I happen to have it right here please pull it up for me I wish I know I had, but I do kindle stuff.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, I had to do that because my books I had so many they were falling off the shelves. Let me see.
Speaker 2:So tell us, tell us a little bit about your book as we wrap up around our worth and purpose in the Lord, and that God does delight in us, and so it just walks us through Bible scripture, prayer excerpts and stories around, chaining towards the heart of God, towards us Like. I always joke that I'm a recovering perfectionist, but it's because I truly didn't understand who I was as a daughter of the living. God, the King of heaven and earth.
Speaker 2:And so the scripture is meant to walk us through that, to understand who God is and then who we are in response to him and his word.
Speaker 2:That he told us, that he loves us enough to reveal himself to us and his heart towards us. And whether we accept it or not, it is true. Hopefully the book gets you to walk through acceptance that you do serve a God who has loved us with an everlasting love, that he's not scrambling up there to figure out all the things you ever did or didn't do for his glory and at any point he is waiting. He's drawing you with love and kindness towards him. So it's short and sweet and to the point and, you know, I hope it is a jumpstart for people to dive more into the word, because the more you know who the author is, the more you want to know about his writing, and so I hope that the book helps you to know about God's love and delight in his word. And you were birthed from his word, and so he did like to keep reading his word and keep delighting in it and learning more about him and who you are.
Speaker 1:Oh my goodness. So God. Be all the glory that. That the description of the book. You do everything with such passion. The description of the book just blessed my whole soul. So thank you so much, my love, oh my gosh y'all. So I know a book sale is about to blow up because every one of us needs that book and I love what you said. I introduced myself. I am the daughter of the most high God, the ruler and possessor of heaven and earth.
Speaker 2:I am she, I am she, so to him be all the glory, the honor and the praise. Okay, and I know I'm God's favorite because in BC and Brooklyn streets I find parking. You understand, I find parking.
Speaker 1:Oh, oh, that's serious. The Lord loves me. Oh, that's serious. See, okay, I'm just going to say this. I know I will tell you what's really interesting. This podcast has been heard in 24 countries. There's two countries I didn't even know existed and I had to do a little geography for myself. Right, I had to check out the geography for myself, but this is heard all around the world. So for some of you, you will not get the concept of trying to park in Brooklyn. Trying to park in Brooklyn is like trying to nail jello to a wall. I don't even know how to explain that. The fact that you said that you get parking because I thought you were going to park in these Brooklyn streets and I'm safe, but when you said parking, oh see, that's favor. No, that's real favor, favor, yeah, that's evidence of a real godly favor. Because that parking, god who lets me? Yeah, yeah, I've gone to brooklyn and had a park in queens.
Speaker 2:That's no joke I have my car a 20 minute walk away, because that's the best I could find I've done that.
Speaker 1:I've parked, I've parked in a place and took an Uber Right Because I had to park. So far, I have parked and taken the bus, I have parked and taken the train, and not because I was lazy, but because I was literally in a different part of the county.
Speaker 2:You just couldn't find it.
Speaker 1:And you just couldn't find the parking. And then you know people double, triple park, so we won't even talk about that, Right? So then you park your car and you can't get it back out.
Speaker 2:So no, you have to wait for the person to come down.
Speaker 1:Yes, so yes, this woman is walking in divine favor. I'm telling you, I could talk to you all day long, but you have promised us, you promised us that you're going to come back to that. I'm holding you to that, and what I'm going to ask everyone is if you have questions. If you have questions, email your questions. I'm going to put a link in the show notes for you to do that, so that the next time Bernie comes on, if you have any questions, we can get those answered for you or at least point you to a resource. That would be good for you. All right, all right, y'all. Until next time, be wonderfully blessed. This is the position podcast. Signing out. Have a great day. Bye now.
