#109 — The World's Most Modern ETCS Runs in India, with Vinay Kumar Singh

When people picture the most advanced ETCS in the world, they think Europe. They should look at Delhi. The Regional Rapid Transit System runs ETCS Level 2 with Hybrid Train Detection, Automatic Train Operation, and LTE radio in place of GSM-R. Every modern feature, in one system.

My guest is Vinay Kumar Singh, then Managing Director of the National Capital Region Transport Corporation, the organisation that delivered it. We recorded while the first corridor was still under construction. This February the full 82-kilometre line from Delhi to Meerut opened, covering the distance in under an hour.

We talk about the signalling that makes 20 trains an hour possible, and much more in the future, moving freight on a passenger railway, and the three things Vinay says decide whether a megaproject succeeds or fails. All of it off the cuff, no scripted questions.

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Transcript

0:04

You are in charge of a, I find, very impressive organization, the National Capital Region Transport Corporation, and that's a delivery vehicle for a likewise impressive project or program of works, which is called the Regional Rapid Transit System. Can you explain to the listeners what RRTS is and what the program of works will be for the next years? So this is an intercity commuter train system, primarily all around Delhi, the national capital. So this is national capital region in India is called a particular area all around Delhi, which includes some parts of the four states, and the total area is about 5,800 square kilometers. And there is a population of approximately 60 million people which resides in this area. And presently, we don't have a good seamless transport system across cities in this region. So the government of India and all the four state governments, they have come together, they formed the NCR Transport Corporation, the organization for which I work, and we are mandated to implement this railway system for a long-term perspective of reducing the pollution and congestion on the roads and giving accessibility to people to move within the region and move to Delhi in a much faster, safer way. I've been following your project for quite a while because I find it very, very impressive. I think that regional fast rail around big cities is a major trend here in Australia, where I live, as well as in other countries. Whenever I talk about regional fast rail, I say, well, have a look at India, have a look at what RRTS is doing in Delhi. This is really how it should be. I think the objectives for reducing the travel time between the capital, Delhi, and the regional sub-centres around Delhi are very, very impressive because I think you've got a big traffic problem at the moment. The travel times between those centres are very long. If there are railway connections, they are very slow, and by road, it takes even longer. Can you give one example how big the travel time improvements will be from introducing RRTS? Presently, the railway system does not cater to this inter-city commute. The national railway system is for long-distance travel or for the freight trains, primarily. This inter-city commute is covered by buses, but the service level is not very good. And people primarily are dependent on their private vehicles. The moment such a large population moves on private vehicles, you can imagine what kind of traffic problems, traffic jams we must be facing since the last few decades. And governments are seriously thinking to counteract this phenomenon by providing a high-speed railway system so that people can move faster and in a very narrow requirement, a very small requirement of land because land is also, it is very difficult to get right of way in the national capital or around that. For example, I'll tell you the first corridor which we are doing that is between Delhi and Meerut, a city in Uttar Pradesh, the state of Uttar Pradesh. This is about 80 kilometers, 82 kilometers to be precise. Presently, it takes a lot of time, sometimes from Meerut city center to Delhi city center. If you travel, it may take two and a half hours, three hours, depending upon at what time of the day you are traveling. The system RRTS, Regional Rapid Transit System, which we are implementing, the distance will be covered in about 55 minutes with 14 stoppages because on our system there is a stop every five to seven kilometers. So even with that kind of stoppages, the commuter will be able to reliably, with a lot of confidence, they can reach in 55 minutes flat. Fantastic, fantastic. So you're basically cutting down the travel times by about two thirds and you still provide plenty of stops in between. You said 14 stops on 82 kilometers, that's very frequent. That's almost like a suburban rail system or not almost, it is a suburban rail system. Here in Perth, where I live, the biggest distance between two stations in the suburban system is 25 kilometers, but the standard distance is more between three and five kilometers, which is probably not too far away from what you are doing with that system over there. Yes, so these are quite frequent, but the urbanization in this whole stretch is almost continuous. So there is a ridership, there are people who want to travel from each of these traffic nodes to nearby city or town or maybe to national capital. That's also very important and helpful for a good service that not everybody wants to go into Delhi, which means that the trains are almost empty in the outer suburbs and when it comes closer to the city, trains get fuller and fuller and fuller. So if you have basically stops in between where people travel between those stops and not just into the capital, that would help the entire loading, the balancing of the service quite a lot. What are the expected service frequencies that you will have on that system? How often will the trains run? So the system is being designed for a frequency of three minutes because we are using ETCS level 2 signaling system and it will be able to cater to that kind of frequencies. But once we start the operations, the trains will start at a frequency of about 10 minutes and depending upon the ridership, as it will grow, as it will mature, we'll be in position to introduce more services and we can keep on reducing the frequencies up to the frequency of three minutes, which is a system limit. Yes, okay. So every three minutes that's 20 trains per hour. I promise that we will not talk about the signaling system today because one of your people will be much more knowledgeable about this. So we probably have a separate interview with him in a few weeks time. What I noted about the signaling system, which is my area of specialty, you are not just doing a normal ETCS level 2, you are doing arguably the most modern ETCS level 2 that I have seen so far in the world because every new development, every new improvement, you have it. So you're using automatic train operation over ETCS. You're using what's called hybrid level 3, which is the introduction of virtual block sections, which leads to higher capacity if need be. And you're also using LTE radio instead of GSM-R, which is much more future proof and has much higher capacity. I'm actually surprised. I would have thought with a system like this, you could run more trains than 20 trains per hour. I would be pretty certain that this would give you additional capacity or additional room for capacity improvements in the future if you should ever find that you would want to run more than 20 trains per hour. Precisely, this is the thinking, this is a strategy for which we have level 3. Yes, because what you have on your line is also very helpful for high capacity. You've got a captive fleet of trains, so you're not mixing your operation with freight trains or anything like this, I believe. And that means that every train is fitted and in a hybrid level 3 environment, every train would be capable of using the full performance benefits. This is basically more than a hybrid level 3. This is almost a full blown level 3, the way you can operate it when all the trains are fitted. Yes, because we are using the train sets rather than a combination of wagons and coaches and not like that. All trains are train sets. So the requirement of level 3 is met out automatically. Yes. I did read something on LinkedIn a few weeks ago where your railway was thinking about some kind of freight movement. Can you say something about this? Are you using passenger trains for moving freight? We are thinking to use the spare capacity on the line till we have a high frequency for commuter movement, for freight movement. But this freight will be moved on different trains, not the commuter trains. And these trains will move from one depot to another depot on the system. So these will not be stopping at the stations. These are the specialized trains. Primarily, there will be a full train from depot to depot and we'll be moving perishables or the white goods wherever possible within the metropolitan area of NCR. Okay. And those trains will be fitted with the same train control system. They will also be fit with ETCS hybrid level 3? Absolutely. Yes. And are these locomotives with wagons or what kind of trains are we talking about? We are thinking to use the metro trains, old metro trains, and retrofit them with the signaling system and higher power of air conditioning and freezing. Some of the coaches will be lower temperature coaches, frozen material, maybe meat or some food articles. So these are basically old trains which will be retrofit with the signaling system. And because we are using the international gauge, we can use the old trains from the European market and make them fit to run for a speed of say 90 to 100 kilometers, which is normally the metro train speed. So average will still keep on getting about 90 to 100 kilometers speed. Okay. And these trains are in a fixed formation, so you don't have variable lengths that you would. Yeah. That's very important if you want to run hybrid level 3 that you have your train integrity proven, which for freight trains is still a big problem. Do you have innovations in other areas? I mean, I just have the visibility of signaling and your railway is very innovative when it comes to signaling. Do you have other innovations where you're doing things that have never been done before in railways in India? Yes, quite a few. To start with, the track which we are using, this is an Austrian track system, precast slab type track, where we are manufacturing, I'm using the word manufacturing, these slabs in a factory. In the project site, and we are using these slabs for the viaduct or in the tunnels for laying the tracks. So this is a high performance, low maintenance track fit for high speeds, which we have customized for our requirement of the speed, that is 180 kilometers per hour. So this is something happening for the first time in the country. Other than this, we are using the catenary for traction, where the catenary is also fit for 180 kilometers per hour. This is something which has not been done by Metro of Indian Railways. And we are using the rigid catenary in the tunnel, which is something which is very, very important because there are very few examples across the world where rigid catenary has been used for a design speed of 180 kilometers per hour. So this has helped us in reducing the diameter of the tunnel, fitting everything within a very, very tight diameter of 6.5 metres. So these are two very important components which we are doing. And other than this, even the rolling stock, this high performance rolling stock which we are using, this is also happening for the first time. And all the trains are being manufactured in the country itself. Yes, I know that you got your trains from Alstom and they have manufacturing capabilities in India. I know that here in Australia, the Alstom trains for Sydney Metro, they come from India originally as well. So I'm aware that they have manufacturing capabilities over there. And from your perspective, of course, it makes a lot of sense to have them manufactured in the country. So having more local content. This concept that you talked about was these pieces of slab track that you're using on viaducts and in tunnels. Is this one of your secrets, how this project is being delivered so fast? Because what I can see from the outside, the delivery of Delhi to Meerut is really, really very fast for a project of this size. Yes, it is very, very complex projects, not only from the perspective of the governance, because as I told you, the ownership of the operation is different governments, federal government and four state governments. That brings in a lot of complexity. And we are working in different geographical areas. So local laws are different. Plus, we are working in the national capital. You know, it is a very congested area, fully developed urban area, doing anything civil engineering here, whether it's tunneling or it is viaduct, everything is very, very difficult. And politically also, it is sensitive, because it is national capital. Then we have opted for a large number of new technologies, which have never been tried in the country. And even for industry, these are new things which are happening. So there are many challenges. And then COVID came. You can imagine that the whole world was taken by surprise. We were also taken by surprise. And there were two very bad years when everybody suffered across the world. We also suffered as a nation, as a project, as an organization. So there were very serious challenges. But because I must share with you, we have a very clear implementation plan to implement. We have a very strong strategy of risk mitigation. We identify the risks and we keep on working on the risks till they are eliminated. We keep a very exhaustive list of expected risks, what can go wrong with the project, we work on plan B, we always keep a plan B. And there is a very close monitoring of the contracts, means at all levels, starting from the bottom of the pyramid till my level. It's out of all the packages, I am personally able to monitor them at a frequency of a fortnight, each and every package. So that helps a lot. And I'll share with you that we have gone for some technological inputs also in the interventions like common data environment. We work on a common data environment. And the project is fully on the BIM. So we are bottom up, we are in the BIM environment. All designs, collaborations, everything is done on a common data environment and BIM platform. We are going for asset management system, very comprehensive asset management system. And to assist this asset management system, we have track monitoring system and we have predictive maintenance module for the rolling stock. So a lot of technologies we have introduced, not only in the system, but in project implementation also. That is helping us in keeping the project on track. If this conversation makes you wanting to go deeper, I run what I believe is the most comprehensive portfolio of online training courses in advanced railway signaling. CBTC, ETCS, high capacity signaling and more. You find them all at my own training platform docfranktraining.com. That's docfranktraining.com. And everything is right there waiting for you. But now back to the show. Yes. And it will help you greatly going forward during operation and maintenance, the asset management system and the Theda diagnostic system you were talking about, like preventative maintenance and so on. That's very helpful to have a very reliable railway. Definitely. One thing I was wondering, and you kind of touched on this and saying that your railway is going into a very congested area, which is the city center of Delhi. How do you ensure the corridors are free for a brand new greenfield railway? Are you going underground in Delhi or how do you do that? Yes, exactly. So in Delhi and on the other side also, the other big city is Meerut. Both the places we are underground. In Meerut, there are three stations which are underground and a stretch of about six, seven kilometers. Same is in Delhi, six to seven kilometers we are underground. Otherwise, we are continuously elevated. So there's nothing at break. Okay. Okay. So it's either in tunnels or elevated. All right. Yeah. So that means when you said earlier that you're using your slab track in the tunnels and on the viaducts, that means basically you're using it everywhere because everything is either a tunnel or a viaduct. Yeah. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense because then you've got continuous track laying and you've got the same track technology everywhere on the entire line. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. All right. Except depots. Yes. Except depots. Depot is at break and there we are using a conventional ballasted track. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Again, for these slow speeds in the depots, that's... Yeah. Again, that's not necessary there to have slab track in the depots, I think, or to put it underground or anything like that. What I heard just recently is that you got approval to start building the second line of your RRTS network. And I did a post at the time saying that that's really says something about the confidence in a new railway system when you get the permission to build the second line before you even got the first line into service. So what is the overall political support that you have for your system and for the further expansion of your network? So I'll answer this in two parts. The first is that the approval process is a long process in India for this kind of highly capital-intensive project, say $5 billion. So in the two-stage process, the first stage is that the concerned state governments, they approve the project wherever that particular corridor is going or line is going. And they commit their portion of financial support to the project. And this financial includes the land because land is a very important component. And land acquisition, faster land acquisition helps the project in early implementation. So and the state governments are the owner of the land within their geographical area. In the second corridor, there are three states involved, that is Delhi, Haryana, and Rajasthan. All the three state governments have approved the project. They have committed their finances. And now the proposal is with the central government. And central government has also moved the proposal for the final approval of the government. This goes through a consultation process, which is bureaucratic primarily in nature. And finally, the approval is at the political level because it is approved by the cabinet of the country. Now, we are getting a very, very good support, not only support, but a lot of encouragement also by the Honorable Prime Minister of India. And he not only supports and leads us from the front, but he looks into the issues such as that there should not be any impediment to the projects. And he has constituted some groups and committees at the central government level, which constantly they watch that projects are not stalled due to smaller interdepartmental issues. And he has initiated a concept of Gati Shakti, where the project should move fast, project should be seen in an integrated way, different departments, different ministries should work in a way with a lot of synergy. All this is giving rich evidence to project implementation in the country. I don't know much about the political system in India, not to say I know absolutely nothing about the political system in India. What you have in many other countries, and here in Australia is one of them, we've got two big political parties, similar to what you have in America, similar to what you have in countries like Germany, where I'm originally from. So you've got two big parties. And when it comes to a new election, it's normally one party or the other. And what could happen is a change of government that it changes from one party, one big party to the other. And this is often a risk for transport projects when the two parties have different agendas and different priorities for transport. How do you see the bipartisan, if you have two big parties in India as well, I don't know, how do you see the support across political parties for your project, for your program? So if we see the example of the first project which we are implementing, Delhi-Meerut, in Indian political system, it is a multi-party system. So there are more than two parties, there are many parties which contest elections. And depending upon the final election of the representatives, the governments are formed. And in the first corridor, we have two different political parties which are in charge of two different states. In the second corridor, there are three states involved, all three are three different political parties which are having governance. And all of them, they have approved the project. It is already with the central government, they are doing the final nitty-gritty and due diligence on that. And I'm hopeful that it will be approved very soon. And we'll be starting the construction. But because you said that project has probably been approved, so it has been approved by the concerned states. And we have a lot of pre-construction activities. This is also something very important which I have done on this project. In Delhi-Meerut also I've done. Now for the second corridor also I'm doing. We are doing a lot of utility diversion. All approvals from the different organizations we have obtained. We have very strict laws regarding protection of monuments and then tree cutting permissions are very difficult to get in India. And there are a large number of landowners, not only the private but within government also, different departments, other landowners. You have to approach each one of them for their approval for taking the viaduct or the underground section. So we are working on this also since last more than two years now. And we are quite comfortable in terms of availability of right of way as well as diversion of utilities and approvals in hand. And we are doing the detailed design also simultaneously of the system. So the moment we get the authority to move the expenditure on the main project by the central government, we will immediately start the construction. So that is the advantage of doing pre-construction activities in these areas. This is so impressive. I'm very conscious of your time so I won't keep you much longer. I mean, you are in charge of this entire organization, right? You are the Managing Director of NCRTC. It's probably not fair to ask you for one recommendation, but if you would want to give say one, two or three, I leave it to you, tips how a project like this has the best chances to succeed. What would you say? What would you recommend to other railways in the world who want to do something similar to what you're doing? What are the main things to look after to make sure that the project has the best chances for success? So with the caveat that each project, each country has its own constraints and own local conditions or circumstances. As far as I'm concerned, if I talk from my perspective and general understanding of the projects happening across the world, the three, four things which are very important, number one is that project should be conceptualized with very clear vision. What we intend to do, what is our objective, why we are doing it. That should be the number one thing. We should be very clear. Number two, as far as implementation is concerned, we should know what are the potential hazards or the financial risk to political risk to project implementation risk, such as I was discussing with you, the tree cutting permissions or some bio sensitive zone. All those should be identified initially and we should try to avoid them. Otherwise, later on, this can create a lot of problems for projects. As we have clarity about the project, we should have clarity about the design and the technologies to be used and our contracting with the procurement methodology should be so aligned that we are able to achieve what we have thought out at the initial stage. And then the most important thing is there should be a leadership team which has very clear vision, very clear ideas, and they should have courage to take decisions. With a team which can implement the vision of this leadership team. That is also very, very important because we can envision everything. If it is not implemented, it has no value. But if there is a team which can implement those ideas, those visions, then that is the combination which can make the project implementation much more simpler than what otherwise projects face. This is a beautiful answer. And just for the listeners, this is all off the cuff. I did not send any of the questions beforehand. We are basically just improvising here and I really love that answer. It's sticking to the vision as the number one. So many projects I see with really, really good planning, with really good intentions, and then they go into delivery and then they let it slip, they let it go, they forget about the main priorities or some other things come in the way. The second thing, risk management, everybody says, our project management is risk management, but very few projects really mean it and really implement it very consequentially. And then the third one is, and I suspected something like this is really the coherent management team, that everybody in the management team is aligned with the vision and really pulls in the same direction. This is so important compared to an environment where all the managers are trying to build their own little kingdoms and pulling in different directions and so on. And I think as a leader, you must have done a fantastic job over there to basically align all your managers and the success of your program basically confirms that you're doing a good job. Yes. All right. Anything else you would like the listeners to know or to take away? I mean, the last answer that you gave was almost the perfect close of our conversation. Anything else you would like to say? I would only like to request everybody to wish us good luck. That's something I can definitely support this. The people following me on LinkedIn will have seen a lot of posts about your project, basically following and applauding to all the good news that you are sharing on the platform. So LinkedIn is definitely a very good place to follow your program. All I can say is, well, wishing you best of luck. So I want to be the first one that lives up to what you requested. And I think your project is on a very good way. And I can only hope for your team keep pulling in the same direction that you can really keep it together and keep delivering in the way that you've started over the last few years. Hopefully things will get easier after COVID is kind of fading away. I mean, it's not quite gone, but I think that the last two, two and a half years were probably particularly difficult for project delivery environment. And I hope it will get easier again in the future. And that should help you as well, as long as your three main points, the vision, the risk management and the coherence of the management team are all still in one place. So all the best. Thank you very much for making the time. And I really hope that our listeners enjoyed the conversation as much as I did you running a very, very impressive organization with a very impressive project. And I'm sure it will be a big success. And the thing is with the government support, if a project is really successful and the government sees the progress and the achievement of milestones and the sticking within the budget and so on, then further support will come and support in the future will probably be rather better if that's at all possible than it was so far, simply because politicians can see that they are winning if they associate themselves with your project and support your project. So I just to close this, I would like to confirm it to you that the target for opening the commissioning of the priority corridor is June 2023. But we will be commissioning in March 2023, three months ahead of the schedule. And the final commissioning of the full corridor is June 2025, but we'll be commissioning at least six months in advance. This is our promise. Yes. Which is, by the way, another lesson learned for any other project this size. You're opening in stages, which I think is a very sensible way to do. The first stage is going out from the depot, which makes a lot of sense because in the depot you're stabling all your trains. You probably do a lot of testing of the rolling stock. So and again, the planning in stages of the opening in stages is one concept that's done successfully by many other successful railways. Metro Singapore comes to mind. They have specialized in opening their lines and stages, and you're doing the same thing. And that leads to a situation where you have a first opening very, very quickly. And then people start to see the first benefits. Some parts of the line are already serviced. And then there will be much more appetite for further openings and further expansion of the network. And that's exactly what you want in order to get all the support that you need for the program. Hi, it's Doc Frank again. I hope you enjoyed this conversation. If you like the content, then the best way you make sure that you don't miss out on any of the future episodes, just subscribe to the channel. By doing so, you also get access to all the previous episodes, which I'm pretty sure there will be many that are of interest to you. Another thing that you can do to help not just your own environment, but the entire industry is to share this episode with friends and co-workers, because it helps more people in our industry to get educated. And an educated rail signaling industry is a better industry. With that said, thank you very much. Hope to see you again soon and bye for now.