Why Your Brand Still Isn’t Working (And What You’re Missing) | Epi 81

Most people think branding starts with visuals.

Logos, colors, websites.

But that’s not where strong brands are built.

In this episode, I sit down with Danielle Marsh, founder of Brand Vision Consulting, and we break down what branding actually looks like when it’s done right.

We talk through the Brand Equation:
 Identity + Tools + Presence + Experience

And more importantly, what that actually means for you as a business owner.

Because if your brand feels inconsistent, unclear, or disconnected from the level you operate at, it’s usually not a marketing problem.

It’s an identity problem.

Inside this conversation, we break down:

•  How your history shapes your beliefs and your values 
•  Why your messaging feels scattered even when you’re good at what you do 
•  How to align your brand across your content, team, and customer experience 
•  And how to start creating content that actually reflects who you are 

This is the kind of work that changes everything, because once your identity is clear, your message becomes stronger, your content becomes easier, and your brand starts attracting the right people.

📺 WATCH ON YOUTUBE

ABOUT

Victoria Odekomaya is a Nigerian American entrepreneur, speaker, and content marketing strategist on a mission to help business owners grow their business, brand, and legacy through the power of storytelling and strategic content marketing.

She’s the founder of LiMStudios, a full-service creative agency and state-of-the-art content studio in Indianapolis where strategy and storytelling come together through high-quality content production and marketing implementation. She’s also the creator of Boss Ladies Magazine and host of The Own Your Brand Show, a video podcast to help business owners grow their business, brand, and legacy through strategic content marketing and authentic conversations about the entrepreneurial journey. 

To learn more, follow her journey through LiMStudios, Boss Ladies Magazine, and The Own Your Brand Show and join the movement to amplify voices, build legacy, and make impact.

Work with Victoria: https://f.mtr.cool/qmicsevjhv

📩 For Guest, sponsorship or inquiries:
 mtr.bio/limstudios | hello@thelimstudios.com | Text 260-777-7211

Transcript

Branding Beyond Logos

Danielle Marsh 0:00

You ask a company, are you working on your brand? And usually they say yes. And you ask a company, what's that brand? And they say, Well, I don't know. I have a logo. You know, I'm telling you, I've got colors, I work on a brochure, and you're like, okay, well, let's start at the beginning. Every company has a brand, whether you know it or you don't, right? You can't just bring a problem to a team and say, do this. Who's the audience? What's the purpose? What's the story behind it? You can come up with unlimited content. You already have everything you need. Nothing is going to be recreated. It'll all be just clarified.

Victoria Odekomaya 0:36

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Own Your Brand Show. I'm your girl Victoria Odeko Mayer, and today I have a trait for you. So you know that I published the Bus Ladies magazine, and I've been hearing a lot of people ask for the magazine in different parts of the country. As a matter of fact, in different parts of the world. And that brings a different kind of challenge because I'm not about to be traveling around the world to photograph this women, although I love to tell their stories, right? So there's been some ideas that have been floating around about doing something even bigger with it, which God knows, we'll see how that goes. But in this conversation of seeing how we can expand, um, I met this wonderful lady that helped me really figure out how that could happen. And the expansion, you know, I were still working on it, but I needed to have that conversation to see how this is even going to work. You know, how I can bring in more people into the fold and how we can continue to make sure the values, the beliefs, the operating system, how we're gonna make this rollout happen consistently so that the brand remains of the highest quality and that the name is, you know, the name is not watered down. And everybody that comes into the Boss Ladies Magazine um community still continues to feel valued and um elevated and all the things that we know the Boss Ladies Magazine is about. So when we had this conversation, it was um very eye-opening for me. And I know I had to bring that on the podcast because I know there's some of you are looking to really figure out what your brand is about. And it's so important that whether you're starting a business or expanding, if you do not know what you stand for, that's not a really good place, right? You you you don't then you fall for anything, right? And so this conversation today is gonna be very, very um, I I really hope you find a lot of value in it. I'm prepared to ask a lot of really deep questions that would really help you figure out what your brand is and more so communicate that confidently because when you have that clarity, it's just incredible opportunities for you. So without much ado, let's get into it. Hi, my friend, how are you doing today? I'm great, how are you? I'm doing good.

Danielle Marsh 2:46

Awesome.

Meet Danielle Marsh

Victoria Odekomaya 2:47

So give us a little bit of an introduction.

Danielle Marsh 2:49

So my name is Danielle Marsh, and I opened Brand Vision Consulting about two years ago. After 30 years in corporate marketing, I realized that this was where I wanted to be to help companies and individuals be able to articulate the brand that they wanted for their theirselves and their companies, and then um go about establishing that brand and earning that brand. And so about two years in the business and and learning what it means to have your own business, but really enjoying every minute of it at the same time.

The Biggest Brand Mistake Teams Make

Victoria Odekomaya 3:23

Yeah, and so I have to say thank you again and again for helping me get that clarity of what it would look like to take Bus Ladies Magazine Global. You know, um I remember the exercise that we did in the mind, I mean the brand mapping, and we're gonna get all into that, but it really opened my eyes to see things a little differently, you know. So um, but before we get into that, because I know people are like, Well, wait, what let me It was so much fun doing that. I I had a blast. Yeah, and you have such a great way of asking all the questions to get us to think deeply, right? Um but what I want to start with like your corporate world, right? You have been marketing 20 years of experience. There must be some mistakes that you see often, whether that be big corporations or small businesses. Can you tell us a little bit about some of the mistakes that you find that maybe help you want to start this business to fit and solve?

Danielle Marsh 4:16

Absolutely. Without a doubt, every single company is exactly the same. And it all starts with people. And everybody wants to be understood, everybody wants to know what's happening, and being able to communicate your story is where the challenges start. So it doesn't matter who you are, where you are, the size of your company, big, small, uh, industry, uh, stage of development, when you want to communicate something, you have to go back to the beginning if you want to do it well. So whether I was at a huge company and leading a marketing team, for example, when you want to launch a product or host an event or change a direction, you can't just bring a problem to a team and say, do this. Who's the audience? What's the purpose? What's the story behind it? And especially these days and for smaller companies, every aspect of it brings people into your story. Right. And then when they can connect with the story and why they're doing it, that makes all the difference. And so I think one of the really key turning points for me was really leading projects where I had the authority to say, we're going to start this project. I have a seat at the table, and we're going to start from the beginning. And so when a project, whether it was an event or lead open, you know, launching a product, we're going to have everybody at the table. We're going to have the the product designers, we're going to have the graphic designers, the storytellers, the lawyers, the everybody's coming to the table, um, the finance people, and we're all going to share our story about the product, right? And um, and and that way, you know, we did that, and I remember walking behind uh it was a I believe a designer, and they said, I don't know why I was at that table. And I caught up to them and I said, Thank you for being at the table. The reason you were at the table is because I'm you're going to be a part of this. And usually you get brought into the process much later. Right. And now you're going to be brought in and you're going to hear all of the reasoning behind it. Right. And and everything's going to run so much more smoothly. Right. And everything ran smoothly. And from why they were doing it and the training materials, the sales materials, and when people try and train from the sales materials and sell from the training materials and turning education pieces, creating education pieces from training sales pieces. Everyone thinks everyone's trying to create materials and stories from bits and pieces. But if everybody has foundationally the same information and you create it from the same components, everything just runs more smoothly, more cost effectively. Everyone feels included. And you can say, This is what we have, this is what we want, this is where we want to go, and this is how we know we're going to get there, and we're going to measure it. And then we're going to look back and say, was it successful? And sometimes if we've missed something, we can say, Oh, now we know the part that we missed, and we know next time we'll do better. And it just works. And it's faster and it's cheaper and it's happier. And everyone feels included. And you're like, we should do this every time.

Victoria Odekomaya 7:29

Yeah. I I really like that because he made me think about the telephone game. Yeah. Right. So, you know, we start from the front of the line and you keep going on. By the time you get to, usually sometimes by the second person, it's a whole completely different area. It really is, right? And but I like the approach that you're talking about because everyone sitting at the table hears the same story. Figure, see, be it a part of how the story is formulated. They can take that in in their, you know, their particular jobs, right? The designer can say, oh, I remember we talked about this. This is how that shapes the design, right? And so it's not a it's not a situation where someone is uh or the mission is um misunderstood because everyone was at the table when we were, you know, formulating this idea and making sure that everybody's on the same table or the same page with the story of the brand or the company or you know what I mean, or the product.

Danielle Marsh 8:20

Exactly right. And so when you have the people who've created a product, for example, and they're talking about it and using the designers, for example, and they're thinking about their to use an old term, their Rolodex of photos, right? And and and they hear something from an attorney, for example, who says, Oh, no, no, that's not the clientele, then the whole story shifts. And you can say, like, okay, well, I'm not going to send my first draft of a brochure with this demographic or audience or sociographic, they're not going to be at the beach, they're going to be at the park, or they're you know, it is and and the first draft is so much more on target. Right. And you've saved time, you've saved money, you've saved hassle, and then the you know, everything runs so much more smoothly, and it only happens because they were there originally, and whether you know every everybody's so happy just to be included, and and they didn't know why they were included in the first place.

Victoria Odekomaya 9:21

Right, just like the person that you were talking about, they might not have thought that this is is important, but just being at the table, having those, I think that would make me feel good that I'm a part of something.

Danielle Marsh 9:31

Exactly, exactly. And so when you bring it to that broader picture of launching your company, you when you're either launching a company or or just going in and looking at the the company that you have to say, do you know the history? Do you know where you come from, what you believe is everybody on the same page? Because every company has a brand, whether you know it or you don't, right? And and that's earned in every single action and interaction. And when those people haven't been brought to the table or they they can't deliver the best material. And when this happened to be an insurance company, but so in an insurance company, the compliance team gets a brochure for the sixth time, and like you still haven't done the right thing, and they're like, Well, nobody told me.

Victoria Odekomaya 10:16

Right.

Danielle Marsh 10:17

Or the logo for doesn't matter, a restaurant chain isn't right, but you haven't hit the mark. But the folks who are creating it, they didn't understand the passion of the founder. Well, why didn't they understand the passion of the founder? Well, the founder never shared that the passion for the thing that he or she was creating came from a childhood memory. Right. And if you just had that conversation and realized that it was formed in his grandmother's kitchen, and now you realize that that's that memory and those like we talk, we've we've talked about memories form beliefs, beliefs, form values, and that impacts how it looks, how it sounds, how it feels, the products you make, the audiences you speak to, and now you've you're in their story. Yeah. And when you can control that story and tell a truthful story, you leave out the bits that you don't want to share, right? But you can control that story, and and now you've got people, and and your hamburgers are different than somebody else's hamburgers because you've you've it's it's part of your story, or your how you paint a house versus somebody how someone else paints a house, or or any of those, it's the passion that you bring to it, and it impacts your employees, it impacts your customers, it impacts the people who choose to do business with you, you know, your vendors, and everybody is now a champion and a brand advocate versus oh there's just another company.

Victoria Odekomaya 11:43

Right, right. I love that because as we were talking, I was thinking about the name of the show, Own Your Brand Show, right? And you know, there's this ideology there that you can't, you know, your your brand, we know that is what people think of you, but to an extent you can shape that, right? And that's that comes from storytelling by sharing the idea behind it, the the vision behind it. And we we talked a little bit about, or you mentioned a little bit about storytelling, right, earlier on, and I kind of want to dive deep into that because I don't think a lot of people understand why that is even really important, right? Especially for a small business owner. A lot of our audience are, you know, small business owners, they might have one to ten employees, right? And but but at that point, they've kind of grown, but maybe they're bringing on people that didn't start off with them and don't even understand, you know, why they just want a job, right? Just to keep things going. Um uh and to an extent too, the founder is just like, I just need help.

Danielle Marsh 12:38

Right.

Storytelling Starts With Identity Mapping

Victoria Odekomaya 12:38

Just like filling this gap, right? And sometimes don't even go back to try and help them understand the culture, the story, how this whole division and things like that. So let's talk a little bit about the storytelling. Why is that important? For lots of reasons.

The Brand Equation Explained

Danielle Marsh 12:53

And first of all, having a job is great. Having a job you love changes everything. Absolutely, yes. So you ask a company, do you have a brand? You ask a company, are you working on your brand? And usually they say yes. And you ask a company, what's that brand? And they say, Oh, I don't know. I have a logo, you know, I'm working on I've got colors, I work on a brochure, and you're like, okay, well, let's let's start at the beginning. And so every company that we work with, we start with a identity map. And at first it's about understanding where you are in understanding your identity. And in the process, it's 15 steps of your history, your beliefs, your values, your operating principles. Your history forms your beliefs, your beliefs you establish your values. And we look for you know a handful of values that are true to your company. And your beliefs, for example, are beliefs that you hold that relate to your company, right? You can hold other beliefs, but these are the ones that shape your company. And um, they became believe exist outside of your company. But um so if you didn't have your company, you would still hold those beliefs. And about the beliefs are formed from your history and the experiences you bring. And the reason I bring this up is because in that, your history, your beliefs, and your values, not only have you told amazing stories, and we help you articulate those stories in the way that you want to tell them, but you have just generated a ton of content. Yes. And everyone likes a good story and they like good content, and now you have a bunch of content that also connects with dates on the calendar, events. And so if you lay, you know, later on in this idea, we we work with a methodology called um the brand equation. So you have to get your identity in place, your identity manifests through the tools, the recruiting material, the onboarding material, the training material, the sales material, uh the marketing material, all of those pieces, and those are just um whether it's uh website, brochures, ads that show your identity, and then it's about creating a presence because we all have limited resources. So it's who you're in front of for the right price at the right time with the right message to get a specific result. So is that the the brand equation? Yes.

Victoria Odekomaya 15:16

All right, so let's just make sure that they caught it.

Danielle Marsh 15:18

So yes, the brand equation, it starts with understanding your identity and articulating those 15 points. And we help you do that. So we have there's consulting and then there's a set of courses because we want to make sure that really everybody has an opportunity to do this. Right. So if you have time but can't afford or um engage a consultant, then you can still take the courses. Whether you have a marketing team, it can guide your marketing team, it can guide a founder, or and and it's always the same process. It's the science behind the art. Okay. And it takes a little bit more time and it takes commitment, but every step there's uh instruction and a worksheet to methodically guide you through it. So it might take a year, right? But at the end of that year, your entire company has changed. And it's fun. That's the other thing. It's a conversation. Whether, you know, if it's a mom and pop shop and they pull up the value proposition worksheet, what has come in the process? So the questions of who is your audience, what do you bring your audience, why are their pain points, and what are their pain points, and how can you solve them better than your competition? And then this is how you formulate your value proposition.

Victoria Odekomaya 16:35

So I'm sorry to cut you off. I just wanted to jump in right there. So if you were to state the brand equation, just like we would say X plus Y equals Z, like how would you state that?

Danielle Marsh 16:46

It's start on one side of the brand equation, the result is the brand that you want to earn. Okay. And that is the enduring sense of loyalty among your employees, your customers, and your business partners. And so on the front end of the equation is identity plus tools plus presence plus experience equals your brand. So identity plus tools plus experience. Presence presence plus experience equals your identity, your brand. Your brand. In that order, you create your identity, you establish your tools, you figure out the presence for the right time, cost, price. And when those things are in place, you have space in your brain and your body and your energy and your time to create exceptional experiences for your team, your customers, people who see you when they pass by. And it's about creating those experiences. And all along you've been creating great experiences because when you bring someone to sit sit at the table, when you have time and say, hey, we've created an event calendar or a social media calendar. Um, and now everything, you know, we know that in six months we're going to be at this show, for example. Oh no, there's a show in two weeks. We haven't invited people, we haven't rented the space, we don't know what materials we're gonna have. We're shipping our things at the last minute, we're paying exorbitant fees, we've got the last booth in the back of the room, and we would like to invite people to dinner, but all of the invitations have already been accepted, so we're going to have a terrible time, create a terrible experience. The materials, the tools don't work, and we don't really know what to say anyway. That's you, everything gets put in order. Right. And then you have that time and the experience to you have the time and the presence to say, we've done all of that, so let's take our energy and put it towards creating these exceptional experiences and say, oh, by the way, so and so is going to be at that show and it's their birthday. Right. And let's have a card for them. I mean, it doesn't even have to be expensive. Let's take the time to make sure, you know what? I know that they like this brand of cookies. Let's have it at the table so they just know that we thought of them. And being or take the time to write a handwritten thank you card, which the for the postage stamp is I paid attention. Right. Or you to your employee, to your uh business partner. And and your business partners are the, you know, your vendors, your media contacts, the people who aren't your customers or your employees, and also the members of the public who are the people who will they they're in your sphere, but they are the ones who can someday become your customers, your employees, your business partners. Somebody in your company works for you and goes home and says, I had a great day at work today and this is why. Or you go home and say, I had a terrible day, my my boss did this, or somebody did this. So every single person at your company is a brand advocate. Right. And if they go home and you know, you want to be this company worth talking about, and you know, they go and they post on social media about this amazing company they work, everybody's watching. And you know, and that's also why we have, you know, we've we've created this framework and this map, and we also created an individual framework because having your own brand and having a company worth talking about, and then having employees who understand that they're worth talking about too, and then creating a company where they want to stay and promote, but also everyone's looking for people and knowing that you bring an incredible amount of value. And if you're not happy at a company, find the right company because maybe it's just not right for you.

Values Vision Mission And Audience

Victoria Odekomaya 20:41

So I want to break down that identity, the brand equation one more time, right? And maybe go into each one of those tools. And I think we'll talk about the map too, you know, somewhere in there. So to be clear again, the brand equation is the identity plus the tools plus the presence and the experience that gives that brand. Yes. So in my head, I'm thinking, knowing who you are, that's the identity. The tools are the things that you use, you know, for like to operate in your businesses, right? And then the presence, how you show up, how you, you know, how you're presented to the world. And the experience is, you know, the experience that comes from your identity and the things you're trying to, you know, promote in the world and what people feel when they're around you, your presence, that is then that then translates to the experience they have with you, or maybe a different word is like how they experience you, which we know brand is how people perceive us, right? Exactly. Because people will award you your brand. Right. So in the identity part, right, and I'm thinking about our audience here, right? Because a lot of us are not thinking about the identity, the tools, the presence, the experience, right? We just maybe the experience a little bit, maybe, right? Or and then sometimes even the presence, because we know we gotta be on social media. Right. You know, but I think that there's more to it. Is what I'm getting when I, at least when we work together, you know, like what I learned a lot from that, it got me to think deeper, right? And so I kind of want to break that down even for our audience so they can get more value. And if they're not, if they don't know where to start, this is a good place for them to start thinking about it. Absolutely. So that identity, right? So, like what goes into figuring out your identity to get that piece?

Danielle Marsh 22:22

Yeah. So the map breaks it down.

Victoria Odekomaya 22:25

And the map is so for those that don't know, there is a brand map. I think we talked about that a little bit. So I just sort of make sure that they realize that too. Okay.

Danielle Marsh 22:33

And and so there's this map, and it's really it's laid out very clearly. And it's uh, you know, and it's it's on our website, so you anyone can can look at it. And so it's it starts with your history because your history forms your beliefs, and then your beliefs form your values. And and we have lots of beliefs, we have lots of values, but being able to pinpoint the ones that really matter. And so when you have these, you you create these operating principles, and so it's not a specific set of operating principles, it's the things that you're you're already doing that highlight your beliefs. So, for example, if you are kind to the environment and you say, look, we have recycle bins in our garbage, you know, next to our garbage because we care about the environment, because we have beliefs about the environment, and there's something that goes back to the environment. You don't have to be an environmental company, you know, but but let's just say you have that, and say, you know, you look at on one end is of your identity, and those never really change. It doesn't matter what kind of company you have, but history, beliefs, values, operating principles, those operating principles will change. But but those things really probably don't change. If you believe in kindness or integrity, those don't really change. And those are the ones that form the identity. Yeah, those those are part of your identity. Then your operating principles, your rules, your guidelines, your policies, your processes, how you celebrate or reward good behavior, you know, profitability can absolutely be a value. If you're a shareholder, you know, if you have commitments to your shareholder, value that and talk about it and say, like, we give great bonuses. And you're going to start attracting people who value bonuses. And there's nothing wrong with that. If you, if that's what you value, you should, and we do it with integrity, we do it with commitment, we do it with relationships. Those are all great values to talk about. Then you also have your vision, and that is the long-term, what you're here for, what your company's here for to pull you forward. So every decision you make moves you towards the vision that you have for your company. And it can be something that is absolutely not achievable in this world. So the food bank that wants to world end hunger. Oh, yeah. Are they going to world end world hunger?

Victoria Odekomaya 24:54

By themselves.

Danielle Marsh 24:55

Not by themselves. But are they going to make every decision that they make for their company in the direction of ending world hunger? Right. Absolutely. Do they want to sell roller skates? Nope. That's like, do we love roller skates? Absolutely. But that's not part of their vision. Right. So then they look at their mission, their who, what, why, when, how, where, all of that. So their who is their audiences. And then being able to really understand who their audience is, internal, external, uh, partners, public, and being then able to say, these are our audiences. So then when you move to the tools, just jumping out of the identity for a second, each of those materials that they create, whether they have to be very technical and say we're speaking to a very technical audience now versus a very not technical audience. So if you look at a pediatrician, for example, if I'm taught if I'm a pediatrician, which I'm certainly not, but if I was and I was talking to other pediatricians, I could use very technical terms. If I'm talking to a five-year-old, I'm not using technical terms at all. Right? My focus is the lollipop and the sticker I'm getting at the end, and please don't give me a shot, versus all the technical terms that I probably couldn't say right now because I can't pronounce them. So but but at the end of the day, every conversation and every piece of material always reflects the identity of that pediatrician or that doctor's office. And it doesn't matter who you, you know, who you're talking to, it's always reflecting you and your identity. So your mission for the next three to five years is is about the length of a mission. It's what you're doing to move you for forward in that vision. And so the type of company you are, your brand type, are you a location brand, a product brand, a service brand, and and those just kind of help shape your marketing, your brand archetype. Again, it just kind of just shapes your marketing. Are you a caregiver, an explorer, a hero brand? Just sort of simplifies your message. And when you can look at yourself through that lens, you can say, This is who we are, this is how we talk about it. It shapes your visuals, it shapes your voice, the this is the tone we use. And then when you create that identity, everything runs so much more smoothly. These are these are the phrases we use, these are the phrases we don't use. So back to that insurance example, you know, when our compliance team would try and work with us and say, Well, we want you to be able to say this. And we say, like, no, just tell us the rules. Right. We never have to say it this way. If we know what the rules are, our voice is this. These are the phrases to use, these are the phrases to avoid. We can always say things if we say it in the right way. You're happy, we're happy. You don't, you're not trying to rewrite our work, right? And we're not trying to rewrite get around anything. We're just we we just want to say it openly in plain language because we're the every person brand. And we're not trying to be fancy and we explain everything. We don't use acronyms. There's some groups, acronyms are no problem, right? And then and then the last piece of the identity map is where you show up in your community and where you show up in your industry. Oh, so that's different from the presence? That's yes, because they're the rules around it. Okay. And so if you are a um, you know, we show up for these nonprofits, for example, and this is these are our guidelines around it. And then when you say, okay, these are our guidelines around it, or these are the things that are important to us. And then when you go to create that presence, so you have your your industry, these are the events that we show up in our industry, these are the events that we show up in our because these are important to us and our beliefs and our history. And by the way, we don't care about this. You know, we're a bakery, so therefore, national chocolate chip cookie day is really important to us. But, you know, national, you know, plant day is lovely, but we don't celebrate it. And so, knowing those things, you know, you start to put those and you create that calendar, and then your presence becomes so much more, so much easier. Oh, and by the way, in my history, did you know that I'm a baker? And here's the collection of photographs of me baking with my grandmother, and this is my grandmother's chocolate chip cookie recipe that started the whole thing. And now I've got more content for my calendar. These are the rules, this is the phrase, the phrasing that I use, and it all just goes, and it just kind of fits into place, and it's like a sudoku or something where you're like, oh yeah, that goes there, and and then you're like, Well, that was done. And the truly amazing thing about it is next year, those dates don't change. Right. And that recipe didn't change, and my grandmother's table and the photographs of yeah, are the same. Yeah, and so you're like, wow, I just got so much more space because that I wasn't surprised when that conference happened next year at basically exactly the same time. Right. And I've been scrambling for the last 15 years. Oh my goodness, yes. And I didn't have to, or like, oh my goodness, you know, the holidays are right around the corner, and I'm surprised because we didn't send our Christmas card list, get everybody's Christmas card list because we have to send these out tomorrow. That's probably there are probably people listening going, we do that every year. And that would back to your question about mistakes. We did that every year, and you're like, Wow, how did we not know this was coming? And you're like, It's always the same day of the year. It's the same day of the year. And if you'd put it on your calendar, not December 15th, but October 15th, to say, buy your cards, you probably got a better deal on them, so now you're spending saving money. Right. And your team doesn't hate you, right? Which is important.

Victoria Odekomaya 30:40

Right. Okay, so that's really clear. I like that how you broke it down, like the identity piece. It's almost like doing a lot of inner work to figure out your history, your values, your beliefs, and that that shows up in, you know, essentially who you are and how you communicate. I love the dates, ideas that you talked about because you know, a lot of people are always asking, I don't how I don't know what content to create. Well, just by doing that one exercise, you can come up with unlimited content. Unlimited content.

Danielle Marsh 31:06

And when you say what's important to you, and there's a calendar, and you you can put into you know whatever explorer browser you like, what what dates relate to these things? You know, if you make sandwiches, what dates relate to sandwiches? Tell me about the Earl of Sandwich. I mean, there are so many things, and whether you have to go deep because your audience demands something very technical, or you go something very simple, once you've explored your audience and you have time to do that, and it just becomes really interesting. And and and you then are speaking to your audience, right? Not just, oh no, I needed content because it's it's Tuesday now.

Victoria Odekomaya 31:49

Right. And then the other piece about that is that you know, the storytelling piece, right? It makes your story a whole lot more relatable when you can pull in from the history, from your beliefs. Because the people that you're talking to also have similar, right? Or something, you know, and when they hear those words, because those those research you do that dig digging deep helps you uncover certain words, like you said, the rules, right? So we can kind of use that as a guide to the way we tell the stories to connect people. Because we started with storytelling. I kind of want to like happen there.

Danielle Marsh 32:24

So and and when you tell a story and people who connect with that story come find you, and now you're building a community of like-minded people. And you know, I used to sit at a table and make cookies with my grandmother, or I used to do this, or I'm with this not I I support this nonprofit because it aligns with the rules and guidelines in our community involvement section. And maybe there's a reason you did that, and somebody else needs to hear what you want to share, and you feel, okay, well, I was never vulnerable enough to tell anybody that. And then you're willing to tell a little bit more about your history, and and for everybody who thought, well, nobody cares about me, if they can see themselves and relate, and and it's wonderful to tell stories. It's even better as a business owner to tell stories to people who could become clients. Right. Because then you also have uh there's there's business, and when you can mix your business and pleasure, it it's not about finding a balance because you can do both. Both, yeah, it becomes second nature. And it's fun. Right. And when when we like when we had our mapping exercise, that's I I have so much fun doing.

Tools Inventory Templates And Naming

Victoria Odekomaya 33:42

I loved it too, because I think that you helped me think really deep, right? And I like that you also had some examples of words that got me thinking because it also expanded my vocabulary, like, oh, I never really thought about this, but yes, that's you know how I'm feeling. And you know, I you know, we went into like how I started the Boss Ladies magazine and how I, you know, first of five girls and all of those things. And unknowing to me, that actually made sense to where I'm at right now, you know. So I really love that exercise. So I want to move a little bit into the tools, right? So let's say someone is maybe got on your website, they downloaded it, you know, and they like they have this map, right? And they're like, they've done the um the identity work. What are some of the tools that they need in this next part?

Danielle Marsh 34:27

So so the really fun thing about our course isn't we're not teaching you how to use tools, we're not teaching you about marketing. What we're doing is putting your company at the center of it. So your company is the center of the entire journey. Right. And so the map focuses on your company, and then the tools center around your company as well. So it's just a very simple process. And if you have a marketing team, or sometimes you can do it yourself, or you can hire a professional, just look at what you have. So look at your website, look at your marketing materials, and say, I have this new identity, just what I have apply. So the first step is taking everything you have and looking at it. And there's something, and and in the process, you you gather everything you have. Yes.

Victoria Odekomaya 35:16

And so by tools, you're talking about the materials, the websites, the collateral and all of like business cards and things like that, and making sure it aligns with your identity. Exactly.

Danielle Marsh 35:27

Exactly. So sometimes you can look at your identity map. If you just took the identity map and everything was in order, I've never seen it be in order with any size company.

Victoria Odekomaya 35:38

Because I feel like as small business owners, too, we we just hurry up and make a card, we hurry up and do the website, we hurry up and do this, right? It's never really that thought true.

Danielle Marsh 35:47

And it's because you started your company doing the thing that you were really good at. Right. And in your head it was perfect. Uh-huh. And then you had to communicate it to somebody, and maybe that was great too. But now the story evolves, your history evolves. But the reason we called it tools was because it was, we could have called it marketing materials, but it's more than that. It's recruiting and and uh training and and all of those. It's everything. Right. It's your voice script. If if you have a call center, it's how you pick up the phone. It's everything. So you pull it all together, and maybe it's maybe your colors changed in the maybe your logo changed, maybe your name changed. And and when you do that, you can look at pieces and say, I don't need these things anymore. These are good enough, these are fine, these I don't need, these can be combined, and this is missing. Right. So what you can get rid of, what you can need to create, and what you can fix. And so in doing that, everything becomes much more clear. You can save money. No, you you have to spend money to save money, right? Because you have to like, but but once you have those pieces, and then you create templates as well that are right for your company. Right. So when you need something, you might have the right piece now that is impactful. It speaks to your right the audience with the message that you actually want to say. And in that identity, you know, identity's always shaping and it's always improving. So if you get a phrase, so in the identity section, if you work through, so there's the map and you figure out what you have, and then you there's a course that you go through, or we can help you, and you go through each of the um steps of the of the identity, and you say if you create your mission statement, you take that last bit, which is the final mission statement after you've done all the work and you put it in identity guide. Then you take your values, you put it in the identity guide, you take your so at the end you have one identity guide you always refer to. And so when you're using your, when you're creating your tools, you just take what you have and kind of paste it together, and then all you're doing is polishing it. And you're creating it for the right audience. You're putting, if there's somebody you call because it's a specific thing, or if there's a general number you call, you're not recreating the wheel. That's right. So you have the template, you have the words. So you might have a general brochure or a flyer that will work anytime. But if you need we're going to this specific trade show, this trade show happens to be in San Francisco, and we need a picture that relates to San Francisco or something like, you know, you can edit it, but it's so much faster. The words are approved. Right. You're not showing something to people for the first time. They're like, oh yeah, I've already seen this. Right. It makes sense that you know you've got the Golden Gate Bridge on it, for example, right? Right. And so it goes faster, it's accurate. If you need it approved, everybody approves it because they're not re-approving language. Right. Um, and so those that's the tools. And so then you create a numbering system for those tools. So when somebody says, I need this piece, instead of, oh, it's on somebody's desktop, who created that piece? Where is that? I don't know. What version is it? You know, we say, okay, well, here's a naming uh a structure to label it. Is it in English? Do you have other languages it's going to be in what year did you create it? And then we put it on a form so that you know that in one year you can go back and just do a quick inventory.

Victoria Odekomaya 39:26

Yeah.

Danielle Marsh 39:27

And and it's about the structure, and it's but it's all your we're not telling you how to use Photoshop. We're telling you how to look at what you have and assess it based on the identity that you've created for yourself.

Victoria Odekomaya 39:39

It's amazing. And it saves a lot of time to like you're talking about because a lot of it is already approval, just making some small changes.

Danielle Marsh 39:46

Exactly. And if you have a marketing team and your marketing team feels a little stuck, you can go through the process and you can say we already have all of this in place. And and some of it you do and some of it you don't. And some of it you just need to modernize or update. And oh well, you know, that we have a great mission statement, but we've added some services or we've changed our focus or our field or our audience, or we didn't really have a purpose before. So it just goes through each of the steps, and this is why we do it, and and now it goes through the process of gather all your materials, look at your materials, update them, put it in a catalog, make it accessible, tell people what you're doing. That's so important, right?

Presence Planning With A Real Calendar

Victoria Odekomaya 40:30

I was getting ready to talk about the presence parts too. Like, how do we then take the identity, the tools, how do we then make um add the presence to it?

Danielle Marsh 40:39

You know, it's you have a lot of these things in place now. And so you know who you're talking to. You've done there's a worksheet that's uh you about understanding your audience better, understanding yourself better, what's important to you better. So then you you take this, you know, a calendar, an annual calendar, just a year calendar, right? And you say, okay, well, what dates are important in the industry, in the world? And you create rules around like what are we going to celebrate and what are we going to not celebrate? Because you have to say no to a lot of stuff. And what products do we have coming or what launches do we have coming up? And you put it all on a calendar and you say, okay, we've got some space here. We wanted to do a thought leadership product project or a white paper. You know, we've got this block here of two months. That would be a good time to do it.

Victoria Odekomaya 41:33

Not trying to fit in when we we didn't never planned about it, planned it before.

Experience Is How You Earn Trust

Danielle Marsh 41:38

Exactly, exactly. What what um observances are important to us and and how far back do we need to start planning to make it actually meaningful? And when do we start need to, you know, teasing it and planning for it and telling people about it, and then having it, and then measuring it and talking about the results, and then thanking people for it. And so it's no longer just a date on a calendar, it's behind and forward and training. And when are we gonna give space to breathe and think and learn ourselves? And now you've put this whole calendar together, and now you've got a bunch of stuff to talk about. Right. And you know, if if you're gonna celebrate Halloween, you don't have to wait till Halloween to stop planning it. Exactly, or or to create a post with a pumpkin on it, you know, they don't only come out at all. Right. So you can you can plan all of these things and have them ready. And so then now you've created a bunch of space for if you have something leading up to it, do it beforehand because again, it shouldn't have ever been a surprise.

Victoria Odekomaya 42:45

That's right. Now, the last piece of this equation is the experience. And I think I know where you're going with this. We maybe already talked a little bit about it, but like if you already know who you are, your identity, and you have the materials to communicate that, and then you're actually, you know, you have a calendar, you know when you're showing up, it sounds like you'll be so much more intentional to provide a wonderful experience.

Danielle Marsh 43:09

Exactly. So the last piece of this, the course, the course is the first course on um creating your identity is really long. Uh-huh. And then they get progressively shorter. Okay. Because by the time you've got the experience, it's like, are you creating the great experience? Let's review this and let's measure it and all of that. But it's really short because you've done a lot of the work already. And really just saying, let's let's look at who again you're talking to. Let's take some time to think about it, let's be intentional about it. Like you say, and what can you what else can you do? And just ask that question. What else can you do to make somebody's day a little bit better? Right. And and celebrate it. And just and and we're all guilty of not doing that because Yeah, life is life in the exactly. And and it doesn't have to be expensive, it doesn't have to be a big show, it can just Be something small or what can I do in what I'm already doing better? Every interaction is an opportunity to earn your brand.

Victoria Odekomaya 44:11

Yeah.

Danielle Marsh 44:11

And when you can do things not performatively, but and now there's there's a piece for that, right? And so creating an experience, an event that has even when you have time to make your event better and more experiential, and well, let's get balloons, right? Absolutely. Balloons make everything better. Of course. Right? And and so, so, so make the event better, make it even more wonderful. So there's that side of the experience, and take time to think it through and and go through it again and go through your calendar again. And could we do more? Not not overdoing things, but can we have you know something that makes something more fun, more exciting, more, more grand? There's that side of it, but also there's the other side of it. Can I do better? You know, can I return the phone calls faster? Can I say thank you more? Can I write a note more? Can I honor someone's birthday more? And and sometimes the answer is no. And some can I take a nap?

Victoria Odekomaya 45:09

Right. Right? Well, you know, the thing that got me thinking, because I know you're saying events, but for small business owners, right, they might be really thinking about their brand, like, you know, that little bit. And I want to use an example of the Boss Ladies magazine that we were kind of working on, right? So, like it's it seems like so not the experience from a big event, but experience from your interaction with that one client. Yeah. You know, because you you know your values, you know your history, you have all your tools together, and you're you you're walking into that conversation, you're working into that interaction with a lot more awareness of what you're trying to be perceived as. So you're more intentional, you're more um, you know, like it flows out even. It's not it's more authentic to you because you're thinking about the other person and how you want them to experience your interaction.

Danielle Marsh 46:02

Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. And and and and that's right about being authentic to you as well, because if everything's taken care of, like I know those things are done, I know things are running smoothly, I don't have 27 things piled up because I've already taken care of it. I know, I I know things are in place. There's always stuff going on. Right. And and I know I know my history, I know my values, I know what I'll stand for, because uh everybody else does too. Right. And and so it gives you a little bit of space to say, this is who I am, right? And I this is this is the good, the bad, the things I'm good at, the things I'm not good at. Right. Um, I'm not pretending to be something I'm not. There's a lot of things like that I don't do well. Right.

Victoria Odekomaya 46:47

No, no. I I really like that again, just going back to that Boss Ladies magazine, right? You know, when we were talking, I was trying to make sure that when we do go global, you know, that we are able to replicate the brand that we have right now. And and what I loved about, you know, when we work together, and you're helping me figure all of this out was like just helping me to think about those stories that was really important to me. And then we talked about like storytelling, bringing on the folks, and anyone that is joining the folk to understand that. But most importantly, that when people, one of the things that we pride ourselves is like when the ladies walk into the studio, they have a wonderful experience. They're coming to have an incredible experience, we know with the hair, the makeup, the music, chocolate cover shop, and all the things. And that's important to me because I know that as women, you know, we don't get to do a lot of those things. Like we're usually at the bottom of the list, right? And and you know, we have to take care of our moms and our sisters and our kids and all the things, right? So um that experience for the Boss Ladies magazine is so important. Right. And that also starts with knowing the under having an understanding of okay, what is it that we're trying to do, but then also bringing it forward that, okay, any woman that I'm talking to, I can confidently say that when we have this experience, you would feel that experience.

Danielle Marsh 48:07

And the way you talk about it, that comes through. Yeah. And so the first time we talk, and and when you live the for your business, you live the equation.

Victoria Odekomaya 48:17

Yes.

Danielle Marsh 48:17

And it becomes part of you, and you can't have a conversation without the equation going, oh, that that's part of presence, that's experience, that's tools, that's oh, that's part of their identity. Yeah. And when we had our first conversation, I was like, experience, experience, experience. I was like, what an incredible experience that you create for people. And so being able to create that experience and put rules and regulations and policies around it so that when somebody else is responsible for creating what Boss Ladies Magazine is, wherever in the world they're creating it, because that's the most important thing, and that's what draws people to it, and and knowing that that's what they're going to get and feel, and if you wanted to be pampered, you could go to a spa. Right. It's not about that, but that comes with it. And then it's that passion and that and hearing you and talk about your story and how you developed the love of sharing other people's stories. And and and it was so interesting talking to you and you know, and saying, well, what about when you were really little? And go and and and when that passion formed, and how that passion formed, and then and then the the steps that it took to get there about photography and social media and your company and and the magazine, and that was all that was all like, oh, it makes perfect sense.

Victoria Odekomaya 49:48

Now I'm like thinking about it, and I'm I wonder, I mean, you would know this because you've you know been incorporated and done all of this for bigger companies too, right? Like, you know, we hear Nike, Adidas, and all this Tesla, right? I bet like they have an element of this too, because the experiences that we have of these companies, it's not it's not random. It's really intentional, right?

Danielle Marsh 50:11

And absolutely, and yeah, and and they create it for they're the ones creating experiences, and and that's part of people who the the brand loyalty from that perspective and recognition and saying, I want to be part of that group, and I want, and you an exercise that we do like who you can go back and say, think about the first time you wanted to be connected with a brand. And in this in this instance, we're talking about like a logo or a company. And I just remember in eighth grade, I wanted like Converse and a swatch sweatshirt. I wanted to be part of the group that was known for that. Or people who want a lot of times you ask, and it's Air Jordans, right? I want to be part of the group that you know jumps higher, runs faster, or I want to be part of that Nike, I want to be, I want to be like Mike. Yes. They're the ones that came up with that, right? And so they're creating that, they know the brand, they know their identity, they created the tools, they created the presence, and they're creating the experience, and everything they do is in line with that to create that experience. Now they have huge teams who do that, and but but understanding that that that's a process and the equation goes exactly the same. And and the wonderful thing about it is there's nothing there that's created that people aren't already doing. But focusing how they do it and when they do it is and and people say it's very complicated and it takes time. You're already doing it. Right. And if you but you if you do it with intention, you get to earn the brand that you want, but you have to know what brand that is. That's right. Because otherwise you're gonna get it anyway. Right. And you can choose to be like Mike or you can choose to, you know, right.

How To Start With Courses

Victoria Odekomaya 52:08

Oh wow. Be like whoever. I really love the way we brought this full circle because I think that, you know, especially for small business owners, you know, a primary audience, right? They might think that, oh, I don't have a huge team. You know, I don't, I how do I, how do I control this perception? How do I like you do such a great job helping people break it down and you know get that realization so they can be more intentional about how they move and present their brand? So and I I've I've experienced this first time. We talked a little bit about how, you know, I know you have a course, you have um, you know, you do consulting too, but I'm sure now they're like, okay, I want to do this work. How do I even start? What is a good place for people to reach you and you know connect with you?

Danielle Marsh 52:52

Well, th thank you so much. I I appreciate it. Um, Brand Vision Consulting is our website, and just exactly how it's spelled, brandvision consulting.com. And the identity, there's a f there's a free course actually that talks about the history of branding. And one time branding was a logo. Uh-right. And so a lot of people who think is branding a logo, at one time it was. Right. And then the marketplace became much more crowded and the competition and you had to be able to stand out. Right. And so, really understanding that history, it explains. So, this free course, it's really it's a video. You can log on, watch the video, and it talks about the history and why branding's important. It walks you through the steps of the equation and introduces the map. And then we have a course about the map, and really that's about just figuring out where you are right now. Okay. And if you don't have answers to the map, it's a downloadable PDF, you can fill it out, um, it walks you through the steps. And if you don't have answers, that's okay, because you're not supposed to. And and if you answered the map perfectly, which would be fantastic if you did, and you're like, I I know all the answers, and I'm totally happy, then you've just confirmed reconfirmed your own brand presence, and that's awesome. You know, if you don't, the course that starts the equation is uh earning your identity. And then each of those has a worksheet, okay, and you start with your history, and it says, you know, create a folder, and and you're grabbing all of this content as you go. And so when you go back to creating that social media calendar or anything, you have it all in place. And you know, you're creating your milestones and you're filling your identity guide in the process, and then let's create your beliefs. And how do you formulate your beliefs? Well, let's and then you know, let's let's put that together, and then you put your beliefs in your identity guide. And well, let's think about you know a handful of values that really identify your company, and then we'll put that in the and so it's really step by step. And even if you're a small company, you can let's take that, let's go through the course, you you pause it, and you know, at the dinner table, let's have a conversation about the company's history. And it doesn't have to be the company when it started, it can it goes back to why we started it right and what we want to do.

Victoria Odekomaya 55:14

And one thing I do wanted to mention, I know that you said there's some people that, yes, maybe they filled out the form, they were able to completely fill out the form. But because I know you've said that you know the identity shifts, right? Wouldn't you recommend that they at least look over it again in the next three years or so?

Danielle Marsh 55:31

Absolutely, absolutely. So we I I worked with um a friend to launch her company, and we went back a year later, and and so uh it it we had such a great time creating her uh she uh it's pet binders, and she had this desire to create binders to help people um with their uh estate planning.

Victoria Odekomaya 55:54

Okay.

Danielle Marsh 55:55

And so it's something that was she was so passionate about doing, and after she retired, she created this company. And so we went and put the identity together, and it was so much fun. And a year later, we went back and said, you know, the identity didn't change or the history didn't change, the beliefs didn't change, the values didn't change, the vision didn't change, the audience changed. Oh and she was thinking, you know, that she had one specific audience, but actually it was a slightly different audience.

Victoria Odekomaya 56:25

Uh-huh.

Danielle Marsh 56:26

And she was able to see that and say, okay, well, I I'm gonna shift my marketing just a little bit. But in the entire process, you know, there was so much clarity that she was able to see, oh, okay, this is what changed. I don't need to reinvent the entire wheel. All I know need is, okay, well, it it wasn't uh this group of folks we need to market to, it's just that the age is is a little bit different. Or you know, we need to go into retirement communities versus, you know, so so it gives you clarity and uh change your mission often, you know, or three to five years, go back and look at it. And also with the equation, which is so much fun, if you want to launch a product, a project, say do we have the identity elements in place? What identity elements relate to this? Yeah, what are the tools that are going to get us to our end result? Do we have the tools in place? Do we already have them? Do we need to create them? What templates do we need to pull up? Okay, well, we can adjust these. Okay, what presence do we need to have? Like, where do we need to be? How do we need to promote it? What experiences do we need to create for the people internally and externally to make this awesome? And if you also have a project that didn't go well, a product launch or something, you can say, okay, well, let's apply the brand equation. Did it align with our identity? Well, no, we tried to step out of our bounds. Okay, yes, it did align. Did what about the tools? Did we actually have the right tools in place? Yes, we did. Okay, well, were we at where we said we were going to be for the right reason at the right price? Did we show up? And did we create the experiences that we thought we were going to create? I I, you know, I've never seen it not work. Wow. And it pinpoints where the problem is and every single time. And and and you learn from it, and things aren't always perfect. And you think you have it in place, you know. What went wrong? I'll tell you what went wrong. We shouldn't have mailed chocolates to a trade show in Las Vegas in July. It was, it was, it was hot, it all melted that, you know, and we've learned our lesson, so we shouldn't have done that. And and it sat in the warehouse for two weeks, and we were we thought we had it all in place, but nobody thought that it wouldn't be air conditioned, and now we have a pool of chocolate sauce, and you know, so that was where our problem was, and we had to go and buy something else. Right. You know, i it's those sorts of things, or we invited the wrong group of people and they didn't engage our audiences because they all went to a meeting instead of the thing that they were supposed to be doing. Right.

Victoria Odekomaya 59:02

So you can say, Oh, that's where the problem was. That's amazing. I love that so much. I would tell you, I did have a lot of clarity from doing it. I know we did it for the Boss Ladies magazine, but I know I want to work with you again to do it for Limb Studios in my personal brand too, because it's just, I feel like the alignment is just so it helps me be more clear and know exactly who I need to be talking to, which is so important in marketing or you know, even in branding, whatever it is that you're doing. If you're not talking to the right people and saying the right things, it's just a waste of time and energy and resource and everything.

You Already Have What You Need

Danielle Marsh 59:36

Well, I I'm so looking forward to it because it's so much fun. But when you do one, it overlays with the other. And then when you do your personal, you know, it the stories just keep enriching each other. And then, and then, you know, like we talked about when you were younger and going like, oh, well, that impacted that. And now these are the relationships, and these are you know, when you do the individual brand, you know, for a company you talk about audiences. For the individual brand, you talk about we have a worksheet about spheres of influence. And so you're at the center of it, and then you have your heart line, the people who really matter to you, and your lifeline, the people who can pay the bills and keep the lights on, right? And then you have your uh outline, which is you know the people who matter to you, and then you have your sideline, the people who are actively still part of your story, but you are they are as far away from you as possible, as intentionally as possible. Right. And and you know, they am your purpose, your vision or your purpose, you know, your heart line and your purpose are connected and your history and who is impactful in your day. And sometimes if you have to make decisions on what you do and what you have to say no to and what you have to say yes to, look at your heart line, and those are the you know, stop apologizing to people in your sideline or your lifeline or your or your outline because it's really do it for the people in your heart line. That's right, and that's you know, and that all goes to your individual brand and that goes to your beliefs and your values, and that is so good because we spend so much time worrying about the wrong things because we haven't we haven't defined that exactly.

Victoria Odekomaya 1:01:17

So that's incredible. I can't wait to do that with you, but um, so for our audience, right, just wanted to say like something real quick to them too, because I they were probably overwhelmed, right? But I know that the resource, by the way, all the resources are down in the description so you can get in touch with Danielle. Um, but um, what what word of encouragement can you give to someone that is listening to this and thinking, oh my God, I've been like I've been in this business for 10 years. I wish I'd known that a long time ago. Like, where do I start now?

Danielle Marsh 1:01:49

Yeah, you already have everything you need. Nothing is going to be recreated. It'll all be just clarified. And you've already been doing everything. You I firmly believe you're exactly where you are when you need to be there. And so if this comes into your your story now, you already have the tools, you already have the ability, you have the beliefs, you have the vision. This is just kind of organizing everything. Um so it's if it maybe takes a little bit of time to figure it out, it's okay. But there's nothing, there's nothing that can't be done. And you know, taking off some of those layers of taking away some of the clutter, it's all there and it it can be done. Um and I'm sorry we didn't meet earlier because that's how I feel all the time, right? I'm like, if I'd only known this earlier, but you know, and like the proverb, you know, the best plant time to plant a tree is 30 years ago, the second best day is today. Yeah, well, today is today. So we can't control 30 years ago. So yeah, the story starts now. Right.

Victoria Odekomaya 1:02:51

It continues now. Right. Well, thank you again for your time and just your wisdom. And for those that are watching, again, we're gonna put the the tools, the links in the description so that you can get your hands on that free course and then also employ Danielle if you need our services, which I think you need because I mean I I really, really get a lot of clarity from that. Thank you again for your time. But until next next time, like she said, the best time to do this is now because you know we can go back, but do not feel bad about that because even if you don't do it right now, it's all adding up to your story eventually. So just take the time when you can as soon as possible to just you know write those things down to get the clarity that you need. So, but until next time, let's have a great day.