What You Don't Know About Your Business Could Cost You Everything | Epi 85

You started your business. You named it, built it, created content for it, and made deals for it. But without the right legal foundation in place — trademarks filed, contracts signed, copyrights registered — almost none of what you have built is actually protected. In this episode Victoria Odekomaya sits down with attorney Aimee Peele, founder of Peele Law Group and Turnaround Dynamic, to break down exactly what every small business owner needs to know about protecting their brand, their content, and their future.
 
This conversation covers trademark research and why skipping it can lead to cease and desist letters and lawsuits, why your AI search history can be subpoenaed and used as evidence against you in court, what you actually own when you pay someone to create content for you, and how to build a legal foundation that fits your current budget without trying to do everything at once.
 
What you will learn:

• Why your business name is your identity and how to protect it before someone else does
• The difference between owning a copyright and being able to enforce it in court
• Why oral agreements are nearly impossible to prove and what written contracts protect
• The legal risks of using AI for business documents and why your prompts can be used against you
• Why content generated solely by AI is not copyrightable and what you must disclose when filingHow to build a legal punch list that fits your budget and protects what matters most

Connect with Aimee Peele: PeeleLawGroup.com 

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ABOUT

Victoria Odekomaya is a Nigerian American entrepreneur, speaker, and content marketing strategist on a mission to help business owners grow their business, brand, and legacy through the power of storytelling and strategic content marketing.

She’s the founder of LiMStudios, a full-service creative agency and state-of-the-art content studio in Indianapolis where strategy and storytelling come together through high-quality content production and marketing implementation. She’s also the creator of Boss Ladies Magazine and host of The Own Your Brand Show, a video podcast to help business owners grow their business, brand, and legacy through strategic content marketing and authentic conversations about the entrepreneurial journey. 

To learn more, follow her journey through LiMStudios, Boss Ladies Magazine, and The Own Your Brand Show and join the movement to amplify voices, build legacy, and make impact.

Work with Victoria: https://f.mtr.cool/qmicsevjhv

📩 For Guest, sponsorship or inquiries:
 mtr.bio/limstudios | hello@thelimstudios.com | Text 260-777-7211

Transcript

Why Names Need Protection

SPEAKER_01 0:00

If your name is really important, you're going to want to treat that as a trademark. I am very, very focused on helping small business owners adopt the perspective that no one speaks for free.

Victoria Odekomaya 0:16

You know, wait, we're trying to be the people.

SPEAKER_01 0:19

But we all also have to be managers of people and, you know, dealers with finance.

Victoria Odekomaya 0:25

What is one thing that they come to you often about what's already gone wrong? So a lot of clients end up coming to us when Hey friend, before we jump right in, I want you to know that this conversation is going to be one of those episodes you come back to. So make sure you save it. Because my guest today is that kind of person who knows things that could save your business. And I don't mean that lightly, you know, I mean she has spent 30 years protecting brands of Fortune 100 companies, multinational entrepreneurs, enterprises, celebrities, and entrepreneurs. And today she is sitting right here in the studio with me in Indianapolis, and she's about to give you the same wisdom she gives our highest level clients. So make sure you stay with me. Hi, Amy. How are you doing today? I'm so well, Victoria. How are you? I'm fine, thank you. It's been a long time trying to make this happen. So I'm excited that you're here.

SPEAKER_01 1:21

I know. I appreciate your flexibility so much, and I've been looking forward to this for a while.

Victoria Odekomaya 1:25

Yeah, me too. So you are uh you do a lot of things intellectually with the you know with um your business. And you said earlier before we even started, like you're celebrating five years.

SPEAKER_01 1:35

We uh our law firm turned five years old on February 1st. So I actually this weekend and just back from taking my entire team down to southern Florida to a spa for a week as a thank you for everything that the whole team has done to get us where we are.

Victoria Odekomaya 1:52

So that's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 1:54

It's been a wonderful celebration.

Victoria Odekomaya 1:55

You know what, like so as a small business, and I know this is completely tangent to what we're about to talk about, but I was thinking about as a small business owner, so I used to work in corporate, I was a scientist before I started doing all of this. And you know, you think a lot about what the business is able to provide to you as in terms of benefits.

SPEAKER_01 2:13

And sometimes as a small business owner, we may or may not be able to provide such, you know, benefit packages, but to be able to go with your whole th team to Southern Florida for a whole week and spot, that's like you know, I really value my team so much, and I want to serve them in all the ways I can. Uh, we are a unique group of uh unicorns in many ways, in that uh we all want to do excellent work for our clients and also be able to have a balanced life. And uh this group comes together, it's such a strong team. Um and in fact, it we usually do this retreat annually because we're all distributed throughout, you know, different states where people live. It's very important to me to get people together in person. I think video is a great way to maintain a relationship, it's much harder way to start a relationship. So we do that every year. Well, we coming out of this retreat before we left, they said we don't want to wait another year. So we're going to accelerate the next retreat and have it this fall and maybe start doing them every six months instead.

Victoria Odekomaya 3:26

So that is amazing. Can I work for you?

SPEAKER_01 3:28

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Building A Team That Lasts

Victoria Odekomaya 3:30

That's amazing. Okay, so we're gonna talk about some of the um things that we need to be thinking of earlier on before you know we grow this business and then we start having problems with intellectual property and things like that. So I'm just gonna drive right in. So then the first question I have for you is that what is the number one thing that small business owners are not protecting right now that is costing them a lot?

SPEAKER_01 3:54

So I would say the very first thing that I would think about as a small business owner is what's your name and what's your name going to be, and how much are you planning to invest in that name, say in the first six to twelve months? Uh some folks are very brand forward with their um with their businesses, with their maybe services and products. Some people are more anonymized in that way. And if your brand, if your name is really important, um you're going to want to treat that as a trademark. And you're certainly not going to want to invest all this time and money in finding ways to deploy that trademark on the web, you know, in connection with your offerings of goods and services in your marketing materials, and then find out three or six months later that you've infringed on someone else's name, and then yet, you know, at a minimum get a cease and desist letter, potentially get sued, and then have to figure out am I going to change it? Am I going to defend myself? It can be a real nightmare if you don't, you know, I had a client years ago that came to me, he'd been in business for six months and wanted to search, you know, the name at that point. Well, we found someone that had been doing the same business with the same name for many years. Oh my goodness. And it was a very bitter pill for him to swallow that he was willfully infringing on this trademark and was putting himself at great risk at a minimum of having to change the name. You know, that's a friendly resolution, right? But there's still a cost to the owner because you've invested all that time and money in getting the brand off the ground. There's something else to Victoria that I find as a trademark lawyer, and that is that trademarks are sort of bizarrely emotional for people. It's not, well, it's not just like owning, you know, a camera that you might like. You know, I'm looking at this beautiful setup you have here. Um but it's it folks almost feel like it's part of who they are, it's part of their business identity. And changing that or it having it challenged by a third party can be a really difficult thing, much harder than, well, you have this asset, but you need to sell it to protect yourself for whatever reason. So we, you know, we suggest that that business owners before they launch, at a minimum, have us help them with the research, you know, or find someone to help them with the research. And I'll I'll also just tell a quick story that AI is not very trustworthy in this regard. And this is why. AI is programmed to um try to get its users to um to bond. And so it it wants you to like it.

SPEAKER_03 6:53

Right.

SPEAKER_01 6:53

It has that bias. So it's going to tell you that your trademark is available even when it's not, because it's trying to build that bond. And I can't tell you the numerous times that, you know, I've been a part of or reviewed searches

Trademark Searches Before You Spend

SPEAKER_01 7:10

done by AI that are just flat wrong. Oh my goodness. So I just caution people in terms of of those uses. The the other thing is your inputs, you know, your um your questions to your AI platform can be subpoenaed and discovered later in litigation.

Victoria Odekomaya 7:30

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_01 7:31

So someone challenging you could come along and say, Well, you knew about me because you searched this and and you've created that evidence against yourself, hand it over. So there's just a number of things to consider. Um, but right off the bat, the first thing is a search and doing that research to see if someone else out there using that trademark. And then, you know, we can talk about should you register it, where are you doing business, in what countries, you know, that sort of thing.

Victoria Odekomaya 8:03

So you talked a little bit about let's go back to the search, because I'm gonna go into the AI thing a little bit too. Sure. But I think that so I'm currently searching for a name that I'm trying to, you know, trademark. And then I'm learning that there's different classes. Right.

SPEAKER_01 8:18

Absolutely.

Victoria Odekomaya 8:19

Which I would never, you know, like because it's a whole lot of information out there. So even if the name is available in one class, it may not be available in a class that is maybe more pertinent to the person. So that's why, you know, services like yours is important to make sure that you're getting all the right classifications correctly and things like that, wouldn't you say?

SPEAKER_01 8:38

That's exactly right. The US Patent and Trademark Office, and in fact, n internationally, uh all of the goods and services in the world are divided into 40-some odd classes. Oh wow. And if you say, well, you know, my class is class nine for software, someone else is in uh class uh say 42 for um software as a service, are those the same or are they different? Yeah. And that takes some some thinking and some analysis. You know, you can say no right off the bat, but it may the answer may not be no. Right. It depends on what the marketplace looks like, how many other people are out there using the same or a similar trademark. So it just requires going through those things. And I'm glad you brought up classifications because differences in classifications um are not necessarily dispositive. It's not a black and white test, in other words. Oh, okay. So it can help, um, but you have to think about both. And services and products can still be confusingly similar. Right. So let's say, you know, you're selling cookies and that's a product, but someone else has bakery services.

Victoria Odekomaya 9:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 9:53

Those could be confusingly similar depending on the the customer's point of view, which the search results sort of will tell a story and you'll be able to sort that out. Um the other thing we look at is, well, we look at a lot of factors, but another sort of main thing we look at is who are the other players? Uh if they're giant firms versus a small business. Which is one of the things that I found in my own case too. I'm saying, ooh. Right. Do you really want to get even close to that? So there's a lot of different factors. Uh, like I said, it it sort of tells us a story, and then we're able to provide advice on that.

Victoria Odekomaya 10:31

Now, there's also something called the supplemental application.

SPEAKER_01 10:35

There, the supplemental register versus the principal register. You've really done your homework because these are like sophisticated questions. So the U.S. Trademark Office wanted to do something for uh businesses that wanted to be able to trademark their um their brands internationally, but they didn't necessarily have a really strong trademark in the U.S. And by strong I mean the words in it were a little more descriptive of the product or service than they were, say, we we call them fanciful or arbitrary, which so a really strong brand that uses a plain English word is Apple for computers. Apple is not a computer, it's not anywhere close to a computer. Okay. Um an even stronger is something that's made up, like Kodak or Xerox. Okay, so those are really strong. Um the the trademarks that describe more of what you do tend to be on the more descriptive side. So you a descriptive trademark can still qualify for the principal register in certain circumstances, uh but even with descriptive trademarks, companies wanted to be able to go outside of the U.S. And one of the ways to do that is to have a trademark application in the United States to then use that as a uh sort of a jumping off point for your international. That's really why the supplemental register exists. I think of it like varsity and junior varsity. You still get some rights with the supplemental, you can still use the circle R, uh, but and it lets you have that jumping off point for international applications. And then after a number of years, you can apply to move your trademark to the principal register. So it's it's not a bad place to be in a lot of circumstances.

Victoria Odekomaya 12:33

Okay. So um, and I don't know how to you you US TO or something like that is the the the office that handles trademark.

SPEAKER_01 12:41

The US PTO. US PTO. US Patent and Trademark Office. Thank you.

Victoria Odekomaya 12:45

But what what is the body that does the international um that manages the international trademark?

SPEAKER_01 12:51

Sure. So there are uh different ways you can do that. One way is is you know, all major markets have developed their own trademark office. Okay. Um there's another way to uh to proceed, however, and that is uh through the Madrid Protocol. The Madrid Protocol is an international treaty that uh provides a single application system that then think of it as a wheel and spoke or hub and spoke. So you file that one international application and then the spokes go out to the various countries that you designate.

SPEAKER_02 13:26

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 13:27

And it's a less expensive way, it's a more efficient way to manage those international applications. Uh you still have to deal with what each country says, but there's a lot of benefits to doing it that

Classes, Strength, And Registration Options

SPEAKER_01 13:40

way. You can also treat the EU as one country. Okay. So there's uh there's a lot of cost savings there. And um, but remember, after Brexit, the UK is not part of the EU, so we always have to handle them separately. Um, and you know, the what we typically do is build a strategy and a budget. So depending on what your countries of interest might be, we'll say, okay, these are members of the Madrid Protocol, we can do that. These countries did not join the Madrid Protocol, so those are national applications. We put together, you know, a strategy there.

Victoria Odekomaya 14:15

Oh, that's so good. Because I was thinking, like, how do you know all the laws for all the different countries and all the things like that? That's interesting. So let's go back to AI. If you spend five minutes with a small business owner that is maybe using AI, you know, for their businesses right now, you mentioned this a little bit, but what are some of the other things that they need, they absolutely need to know that they don't know with using AI?

SPEAKER_01 14:37

Sure. The the first most important thing is to make sure you are using a closed system. It's worth the money. Please buy it today or yesterday, as the case may be. Um, the the closed systems are the ones that keep your information private to you so that whatever your prompts are, whatever you're submitting in terms of documents or an email string, please summarize these emails, what have you, are not going out into the internet for AI for other people to be able to pull from, right? You don't want to be doing that. Um so that's the very first thing I would do. The second thing I would suggest, and this goes back to something I said earlier, is be aware that what you are um prompting AI is is going to come back if it potentially if it's in um uh a lawsuit situation, so that can be um subpoenaed. So if you're if you're asking questions about legal matters, just be aware of that. Um and you know, when you hire a lawyer to do those things, it's different and you you have more protections. So that's the second thing. The third thing is be careful when you are if you're putting, say, a contract into an AI platform and saying, analyze this for me. AI is not always right. Right. AI tends to hallucinate. AI also s tends to sometimes create bizarrely worded contracts. I've had clients create contracts from AI, and in my nearly 30 years of practice, I have never seen the language that it's using. It sounds strange and so it it can be very convoluted if you're having it create contract language for you. Also be aware of confidentiality. If the documents that you are putting into your AI system have a confidentiality clause, and you can't guarantee that it's kept confidential in your system, you may be violating a confidentiality clause. So there's um also one more point, and that is that AI is being taken to task by not just the court system, but some states are considering legislation that AI can be found to have and the companies behind it to be engaged in the unauthorized practice of law. So there's a pending um pending legislation in New York on that right now, and I imagine it's not the only state that's going to get on that train. And then there's also a lawsuit pending against one of the AI platforms because an individual woman who had uh settled a personal injury case went to AI and said, Should I have settled that or not? Was it a bad settlement? And of course, AI is programmed to want you to like it.

SPEAKER_03 17:42

Right.

SPEAKER_01 17:43

And so it said, No, you should have gotten more money. And then it coached her to file dozens of documents with the court that were superfluous, frivolous. Oh my goodness. But the insurance company had to respond to every single one.

Victoria Odekomaya 18:00

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_01 18:00

Because that's how the court system works. You can't just let things go unanswered. So the insurance company is now suing that AI platform for making it go through those machinations. Yes. So there there are a number of pitfalls that you want to be aware of.

Victoria Odekomaya 18:16

Wow. So the closed system, I think that I don't think a lot of people are thinking about that. Because, you know, whatever you put on the internet is there forever. And whether we like it or not, AI is also internet, right? So 100%. Right. And so there's been a debate in the creative community about how AI can now generate a lot of, you know, creatives, photos and videos. And we know that all of this generation is coming from somewhere, which is a lot of the work that has been out there. So the question is, and I don't know if you have an answer for this yet, but like who really owns this data?

SPEAKER_01 18:51

So that's a that's a great question. And we have been handling that for clients that are registering their content with the U.S. Copyright Office. And nobody owns the the copyright in that content. It's not copyrightable because it was not created by a human. And so it's um it's something that when you file your copyright application, you have to disclose what was created by AI, and you're essentially carving out your claim of exclusive rights to that content. And the Copyright Office is is being very strict in its review. In fact, we have filed applications that were 100% for content created by a human being. 100%. And the Copyright Office came back and said, This looks like it was made by AI. And we've had to go back and say it really wasn't. So they are they are scrutinizing this content um in a lot of detail.

Victoria Odekomaya 19:53

Okay, so I I used to be a photographer. That was what I did 100%. And I took photos of a ton of clients. Are you saying that I have to copyright every single art you know creative that I created for each client in order to be protected in this area? Or like is there like a an umbrella, you know, protection?

SPEAKER_01 20:15

So um copyright um law works this way. The minute you

International Strategy And Madrid Protocol

SPEAKER_01 20:20

you take a photograph, the photographs you took of me before this episode, you own the copyright in it today as soon as you created it, right? If I want to own the copyright, I have to ask you for a written assignment if I want to own the whole thing. You're aware of all of that. Um if you find that, let's say you retain the copyright and somehow it gets out on the web and somebody steals it, to sue them, you have to have a copyright registration that you get through the copyright office. Um to, you know, you could send a cease and desist letter based on what are called your common law rights, which are the rights that were created today, but you wouldn't be able to necessarily um uh get those money damages through court. There it's a this is one case in intellectual property law where there is a bright line, and that is you have to have a certificate of registration to file that lawsuit in federal court. So you want to do that, and you also want to do it within three months of creating that work.

SPEAKER_03 21:23

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_01 21:23

Because there is a particular section in the copyright statute that allows you to get money damages uh without having to prove that you actually had financial losses based on the infringement.

SPEAKER_03 21:37

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 21:38

So now we're really getting in the weeds, but the point is to file copyright applications early and often. You ask about an umbrella protection, you can file collections of photographs. So, and the pros and cons of that probably go beyond the scope of your question, but that is one way to save.

Victoria Odekomaya 22:00

Oh, okay. Because I was thinking like I mean, I'm constantly taking new photos. I mean, we're creating content right now. Like, what would that look like if I need to keep you know making sure that my content is not in being infringed on like continuously? That's where my question was really came from.

SPEAKER_01 22:16

So some clients will file a group of uh of different you know items, say photographs or what have you, you know, quarterly or annually or whatever. The analysis comes into um, you know, what the pros and cons are, depending on how um big those collections are and whether your enforcement will be as strong as you want it to be. Okay. And that kind of requires a little bit of a deeper dive. But getting it, whatever the decisions are around the strategy, getting it in in a process that is repeatable, that you can calendar and then do it, you know, make sure it's happening again and again. You know, and the same thing with written content like periodicals or anything like that, um, it all makes sense to to make it a part of a process.

Victoria Odekomaya 23:08

Okay. That makes a lot of sense now. Okay. So there are a lot of small business owners that watch this channel and listen to. And so I have a question about that would help them specifically. What is one thing that they come to you often about what's already gone wrong? Like by the time they come to you. So and the goal, the goal of this question is to help them avoid you know, things before it goes wrong. So can you give us some some examples of things? And if you have any stories to help uh tell that.

SPEAKER_01 23:37

Sure. So a lot of clients end up coming to us when a business deal that they have been in has gone south and they didn't have a written contract. Or what they had, or you know, they had a couple of emails that said this is what's going on.

Victoria Odekomaya 23:52

Oh, wait a minute. I thought that, well, oh, if he doesn't have a signature, it doesn't count.

SPEAKER_01 23:56

Not necessarily.

Victoria Odekomaya 23:57

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 23:58

Uh you can have contracts that are only oral. You and I could just have an oral agreement.

Victoria Odekomaya 24:03

I feel like I've watched a lot of Joe JD's.

SPEAKER_01 24:06

Right. Right.

Victoria Odekomaya 24:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 24:09

So uh I'll be Judge Amy. No, just kidding. Um, but I need the big lacy collar, right? Um so you can have an oral agreement, but as you can imagine, the terms are very difficult to prove. You know, he said, she said, they said, what have you. So, you know, it's a best practice to have for whatever you're offering, whether you're selling products and you need to disclaim the warranties and make sure people aren't coming after you for um whatever might be beyond the scope of what you're selling, or if you're

AI Pitfalls For Legal Decisions

SPEAKER_01 24:40

providing services and you need, you know, different rights or um different protections. You know, I have I have a number of clients that provide services inside luxury homes, for example, that might be, you know, design services, or you might come in and do build-outs of certain rooms, or you're providing personal assistance services. When you're inside a home, there's a number of permissions and and liability concerns, and you need, you know, to kind of work through that. Or clients I have in the publishing field. There's a lot of detail that goes into that. And that also translate back to AI. You know, if you're an author or a business owner and you, you know, you want one of these um these publishing companies that are saying basically we'll write your book for you, we'll ghostwrite for you. There's a lot in there about what kind of content are they really having AI write it, who's going to own it. So written contracts are essential. And uh and I see it a lot that um that you know small businesses haven't taken the time and and kind of taken a breath and said, you know, how do I really document this because they're so eager to make the sale and to bring in the income, which I completely understand. I have owned a small law firm for five years now, and I'm actually launching a consulting firm this month. So I I truly understand that pre-revenue stage, um, but these are things that you're setting up like scaffolding that will protect your company, you know, literally for years to come.

Victoria Odekomaya 26:18

Wow. So when is the right time? Like when do I know that I need to stop, you know, investing in contracts?

SPEAKER_01 26:26

As soon as you feel like you're able to afford it, frankly. And it's never too early to have a conversation.

Victoria Odekomaya 26:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 26:34

Because um, you know, many law firms, mine included, we'll have an initial conversation with you at no charge, you know, just to figure out what does your business look like, what might your needs be? And then we often sit down with our small business clients and we create a punch list of priorities, you know, to work with your budget. If this is the only thing you do, this is what we recommend you do. This is of next importance, this is of next importance. So we understand that you can't boil the ocean in a day. Right, well, right, or ever, actually. So we try to help our clients work through that um to you know, do what matters most first.

Victoria Odekomaya 27:16

So I like the sound of you working with their budgets because I think a lot of people are afraid. The moment you talk about going to see a lawyer, an attorney, you're like, oh my God, retainers and you know, a lot of money power, because we should we should be compensated, right? But it sounds like you really work with small business owners to meet them, you know, where they are with the budget they have for what they need to do.

SPEAKER_01 27:38

A hundred percent. And we also do a number of projects on a flat fee basis so that you know what that investment is. And luckily, I've been able to build out a team that is more than just me, right? So I have uh more junior attorneys, I have paralegals on staff. They help a lot with the day-to-day work. So it's not as expensive as having a you know a lawyer who's been working for 30 years, you know, at my rate, doing every little thing. That's it it's the opposite, right? I'm I'm out talking to clients, I'm out doing things like this, and they really support the day-to-day work of the firm, uh, and our pricing is able to reflect that. So, and you know, that's a that's the great thing about a firm, whether you use ours or you know, uh a firm that's able to work this way.

Victoria Odekomaya 28:28

I love that. So you had mentioned contracts was one of the things that we definitely want to make sure we, you know, jump on. Is there anything else? And particularly, do you have anything in your flat rates that small business owners need to be thinking about right now and maybe take advantage of?

SPEAKER_01 28:44

Sure. So there's two that I would mention in addition to what I said before. If someone um hires a content provider, they often think that all that content is owned by them.

unknown 28:56

Right.

SPEAKER_01 28:56

And you know this because you're the content provider. That issue needs to be sorted out in writing before you create the content. Right. Otherwise, and if you don't, then the content provider owns it. And that may be okay. At a minimum, you will want a license, right? So that needs to be in writing and those terms sorted out. So um so that's one thing that I would definitely um uh definitely caution. The other thing is um speaker agreements. I am very, very focused on helping small business owners adopt the perspective that no one speaks for free.

Victoria Odekomaya 29:35

Right.

SPEAKER_01 29:36

I don't believe in in uncompensated labor, and um that doesn't mean that you have to charge cash money, but it does mean that you have to figure out the benefits that you're getting. Cash money is better. Um you also own value in your right of publicity, right? You know, your image, your likeness, your voice, and all of those things. You want to make sure that you remain in control of that. Right. So a speaker agreement, which is on our flat fee schedule, um allows people to have some controls there. It also, I believe, for the the company, the business that is providing the speaker, it helps them out of the gate with the optics of their company. We're professional, yes, we'll come and speak. Right. We're not desperate, we're not desperate to to drum up business. Even if you are desperate to drum up business, right? Who isn't? And you know, sure, I'll be glad to come and speak. Here's our agreement. And then you can sort through the details of those terms. And once that's done, then when you show up to speak, things flow smoothly. Right, you're getting value, you feel good about it, they feel good about it because they've hired someone or engaged with someone that has real value and knows it.

Victoria Odekomaya 30:53

Right.

SPEAKER_01 30:53

So clarity is a gift for everyone. That's one of my favorite quotes, and this is part of that.

Victoria Odekomaya 30:58

I love that because a small business, when we're starting out, you know, we're not only trying to build the business, we're also trying to build confidence and understand the value that we bring to the table. So having, you know, a speaker agreement

Copyright Registration In An AI Era

Victoria Odekomaya 31:10

like that automatically puts you in the position of power. Like to maybe a bigger company. So now you're looking all like put together and you know. Oh, that's amazing. I love that. Wow. So you have grown your business, you know, five years. You have about what um, I think I counted six on your website.

SPEAKER_01 31:27

Well, we've also actually brought in someone else. So we um we had seven at our retreat last week, and we have two more that were unable to come. So yeah, we're up to nine.

Victoria Odekomaya 31:38

That is incredible. So my question for you is how have you grown so fast in five years?

SPEAKER_01 31:44

Well, fortunately, you know, I had a a career, uh, you know, a 24, 25-year career before this. So I'd grown my network um for a long, long time. And I was fortunate to work in very big law for a long time, had great experiences there, and you know, was able to learn the craft of owning a firm and running a firm, not just being a lawyer. So that's those are two different things. Absolutely. And they don't teach you the first one in law school. They only teach you to think like a lawyer, which is important. Right. But we all also have to be managers of people, yes, and you know, dealers with finance and marketer and marketing, client development, and all of that. So I was really fortunate to launch this off a platform of deep, deep, deep experience. Um, I also know as a small business owner myself what my clients are going through. And so I'm able to connect with them. And so, you know, word of mouth has been how we've grown. And um, you know, that's that's really been it, referrals and things like that, which have been fantastic and I'm immensely grateful for. Uh, and I also like connecting with people. So and I've I've been fortunate to have um great connections with potential folks that want to, you know, join the team. Um last year I actually bought another law firm and merged it into mine, and so we have some staff from that acquisition. Uh so that's another way. And uh and I trust my intuition and uh and I, you know, when opportunities are in front of me, I am risk tolerant enough to evaluate and potentially take them.

Victoria Odekomaya 33:39

That's amazing. You're such an inspiration.

SPEAKER_01 33:42

Oh, you're very kind, thank you.

Victoria Odekomaya 33:51

But like you're really growing and you know, growing. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 33:55

Well, that's one reason. Um it's interesting you mentioned the five-year mark, because that's one reason we did sort of a big retreat this year. Um because we all know, you know, five years is is a mark of success. It really is. Just if you look at the statistics, most small businesses don't make it that far. Right. And so getting there was sort of this, you know, this oasis that we were sort of shivering in the distance, right? And looking to get to. And uh so thank you. We're we're tremendous, all of us, the whole team, we're just tremendously grateful.

Victoria Odekomaya 34:30

That's a big and now your team is all over the country, right?

SPEAKER_01 34:33

We do. We have um we have a few people here in Indiana, but then we also have uh folks in uh Kansas and Oklahoma and Florida, and you know, it when we bring others on the team and whatnot, it kind of um grows and moves and whatnot. Um and we've got great relationships too with co-counsel we use when we have clients that are in other geographies.

Victoria Odekomaya 34:57

That's amazing. So what made you start this?

SPEAKER_01 35:01

Um well it was an interesting time. It was during COVID because when better to start a new business, but in the middle of a global pandemic. Right.

Victoria Odekomaya 35:09

I feel like a lot of women started a business at that point.

SPEAKER_01 35:12

Right. And I had a lot of changes in my life, um, a lot of changes in my kids' lives. And um, and I'll just be you know very open here. Uh one of my children was diagnosed with a chronic illness that requires a lot of management. And I thought, you know, now is the time for me to be able to have even more control over my schedule and the ability to be, you know, both be a successful lawyer and to dive in more as a mom. Right. Um so that was that was really critical to me. I also turned 50.

unknown 35:50

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 35:50

And there was something that year about, you know, what's next. And so it uh I did a lot of sort of, you know, career and personality reassessments. I had done lots of them over the years, but I did, you know, more at and at this stage in my life, and it was abundantly clear, you know, they said you need to be an intellectual property lawyer and own your own firm. And I thought, okay, well, interesting, because that's what I'm doing. But the a funny little story is they told me there's one thing you should never do. You should never teach small children. Do not be a teacher of small children. And I think back to like teaching Sunday school and things like that, and the little kindergartners, and I just I hope they're not all in therapy. I'm sure you did a great job. Well, I, you know, I think they're fine, but you know, it but so but it was great to hear this is what you know, this is on the green light list. But don't do this, you know.

Victoria Odekomaya 36:52

Well I already did that too late, but too late, but yeah. And they're okay. Wow, that's incredible. You look amazing for your age. Uh well, thank you very much. Do you really would you say you do a good job of balancing being a mom and a business owner? Or like how do you how do you manage that?

SPEAKER_01 37:09

Well, a couple of

Contracts That Prevent Deal Disasters

SPEAKER_01 37:10

things. The first is I have an amazing husband. Oh, uh, and we are true partners. In fact, um he was bike riding yesterday and broke his elbow. He was in a terrible accident, it was not his fault, but he went, you know, right over the front of his handlebars. And so, you know, I sent a long text to the kids and I said, you know, you know that he and I split our household tasks. Here's all the stuff I'm gonna need help with for the next three months. And so um, and it was really interesting to outline for them just how much he does. Right. And we are true partners. So I I have to give him a shout out because without a true partnership, this would be much harder.

Victoria Odekomaya 37:50

Oh my god, yes.

SPEAKER_01 37:50

Yep. Um, and the the other thing that really supports me is my team at the firm because we all we one of the things we do at my firm is really bring your whole self to work. That's kind of what PLO Group is about. And so when somebody has a sick kid or they're gonna be on vacation or their husband just broke his elbow, others really step up. Okay, well, you know, I'm in the office all week. What can I do to take, you know, something off your plate? I get a message at least daily from someone that says, What can I take your plate off today? And so it we have such a supportive environment that uh my team members just we're all there for each other, whatever is happening. Um and and the other thing is my kids understand, you know, if I've got and how old are they? So they um they range. Um we have a blended family and we have four, and uh right now they range from 17 to 22.

Victoria Odekomaya 38:49

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 38:50

So and they're sort of stair steps in the middle of all that. So we always have somebody graduating or starting college or going to promp.

Victoria Odekomaya 38:57

Every yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:58

It's all that, and it's um and they're wonderful humans. That's amazing. Very lucky.

Victoria Odekomaya 39:03

Because I was also thinking as you're speaking, I was like, wow, how do you I mean, because you're still very involved in law, right? 100%. And but you're still managing your business, right? And then being a mom, but there's no way you could do that without that partnership and support within your work and with your partner too. So it definitely makes it a lot easier.

SPEAKER_01 39:20

I I also outsource everything. Oh. So whatever he doesn't do and whatever I don't do, um, the kids chip in, or it is systematically outsourced.

SPEAKER_03 39:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 39:31

Whether it's cleaning or laundry or grocery shopping or whatever it is, lawn care, uh I outsource a lot. And that is one thing too, just talking about not really legal advice, but business advice. Um, a long time ago, uh, when you know, a million dollars a year was felt like more than it feels like now, right? Um, they did a survey of female business owners that made it to a million dollars within the first couple of years, whatever the the benchmark was, and they wanted to see what what was the same. What was the common denominator? Did they all go to, you know, the same business school? Were they all in the same industry or same city or what was it? And none of that was the common denominator. It was that they all outsourced their grocery shopping. Oh, so they learned the value of their time. And if whatever the task was didn't line up with that and the opportunity cost was too much, they outsourced it. So I've taken that to I I I don't want to say the extreme, but I really know the value of my time and I encourage other people too as well. In this gig economy, you can get help with everything.

Victoria Odekomaya 40:45

Absolutely. So I grew up in a culture where it's normal to have a a maid, it's normal to have a driver, you know, all of the things. And so when I came to the United States and it's like you gotta pay like a billion dollars off. Right. I was like, oh my God, how do you know? But I'm glad to hear that because a lot of women, I mean, for me, it's normal to outsource a lot of these things, but it's still a thing that I guess women need to kind of switch in their minds to say like it's okay, because you you're also providing employment and opportunities for those people as well.

SPEAKER_01 41:18

Absolutely. And they they want the business. So there's actually a local business that has pulled together um lots of local providers. It's called Insomnia Mom.

SPEAKER_03 41:30

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, you're familiar.

SPEAKER_01 41:32

Yeah. So um, and I'm very good friends with the owner, and uh, you know, I I use a lot of the the different services that that she provides, and it's it's all built around this um this idea that you know, years ago, even in the US, when we lived in community, we did this naturally. We may not pay people in cash money to watch my kid, but when we're we're living in in larger family units and community units, it happened naturally. You know, you might do laundry together, you might somebody's gonna watch all the kids and somebody's gonna do something else. And as you know, we built interstates and we came very mobile. And so we've moved into a a time of great individuation. Right.

Content Ownership And Speaker Agreements

SPEAKER_01 42:20

And this is a way of bringing that community back. Um and the last thing I'll mention is it's way more affordable than you think it is. And if you are willing to invest in yourself now by owning your time, your your revenue will move at a pace that will demonstrate for you the wisdom of not doing those high importance, low-interest tasks to you as a business owner. But they're very high interest tasks for the person whose business it is to do them.

Victoria Odekomaya 42:51

That's right. I think that's something that I'm learning too, you know, being able to put a value on my time and then be able to let it go. I don't have to be the one photographing, I don't have to because there's so much more that I could be doing that would bring much more value to the business.

SPEAKER_01 43:06

Absolutely. Client development, for example. Right.

Victoria Odekomaya 43:10

All right, I got two more questions for you. Okay. So you mentioned a little bit that you're starting a consulting firm. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

SPEAKER_01 43:16

Or that's not Oh no, it's called Turnaround Dynamic. Okay. And it is non-legal at all. I mean, it's not in the legal field at all. Okay. Um I found I have found sort of a gap in our human relationships where uh people know they need to make some kind of pivot or change in their life, or they know there's a friction there and their friends don't want to tell them. Nobody wants to confront them. And and and also in the Midwest, there's this sort of reserved communication style. You might be able to tell, I'm not very reserved. Um I believe we need truth tellers in our lives. Right. And I'm not a therapist, I'm not a priest, uh, I'm not a psychiatrist. I'm not a coach. This is not coaching. Coaching. Okay. There's lots of great coaches out there. But I am the person that once I, you know, will have sort of detailed information to ask about, you know, from our clients. And then I will sit with them and tell them what I see. I've been told for decades that I have this gift of being able to see from A to Z really quickly. Like one of my strengths in the strengths finder analysis is being able to do that. And so it will often be a hard conversation, but I will be able to look at you and say, you know, your business is isn't working. And what you might need to do is this. Or your marriage is really in trouble. And this is the kind of thing that everybody in the room can see except you. Right. So maybe you do this, maybe you go to counseling, maybe you go, you know, whatever. But it could be business, it could be personal, but I will be the person that will help them, you know, see the truth. And then the next step is I've got a wonderful collection of, you know, providers that I trust and can make a referral to them. Again, it's not ongoing coaching. Remember, I'm not supposed to teach small children. So I I took that as maybe I am not the coach either. But there's a lot of great coaches that can take it from there. Right. And um, so that's what we'll be doing. I was told when I did um another analysis with uh another local company, um and it's called the calling quilt. Dave Rodriguez does it and he's amazing. Um that I'm, you know, he looks at your whole life and kind of what the the kernel is from it. And he said, Amy, you are the master of the turnaround.

unknown 45:45

Oh, I love that.

SPEAKER_01 45:47

And so I I took that to heart. And a couple years later, we're launching this business.

Victoria Odekomaya 45:52

That's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 45:53

Yeah, we can put his um URL on the in the call notes as well. Absolutely.

Victoria Odekomaya 45:57

Yeah, so last question. Yep. So in this world of AI as a marketer, you know, we talk about how you want to be referenced by AI because he helps build trust, right? If someone was Googling online or searching online and you come up, that bees trust immediately. Um but we've also learned now that we gotta be careful about some of the things we put online, you know, to make sure that in AI, because it could get us in trouble one way or the other if it's not a closed system. So maybe this is a two-part question. So how do you suggest we mitigate uh, you know, putting information out there so AI can find us, but also not put in information that would hurt us?

SPEAKER_01 46:36

Sure. I and I think the answer is pretty simple.

Growing A Firm With Referrals

SPEAKER_01 46:40

If you wouldn't want it to appear on the front page of the New York Times, don't put it out there. Um so uh I mean that that to me is is the bottom line question. If it's okay for everyone to quote you, if it's okay for you to associate your name with this, if it's okay to use the AI resources in whatever way you are using them. You know, there's a lot of people out there that are thinking through the environmental impact and things like that. So if if it's worth that trade-off, go for it. If it's not something that you would want to have to address publicly from a reporter or in a dispute, don't. But otherwise, go for it because the more content that's out there, the better. Right. We recently, this is another story. We recently had one of our lawyers do a consult with someone that had reached out to us and she said, you know, how did you find us anyway? And he said, Well, you were the top firm that came up in Chat GPT, and we were just thrilled to hear that. I can't tell you I know all the magic, but right.

Victoria Odekomaya 47:45

If I was on your website looking at some of the work that you're doing, so it could be that. Who knows? Um it was fun to hear, but uh so that's that's what I would do there. That's amazing. Okay, so then how do small business owners stay visible and also be trusted in the AI world? So I'm thinking five years from now, what are some of the things that they could be doing, you know, to be able to leverage AI?

SPEAKER_01 48:08

So I would continue to build your content reservoir, so to speak, or library, right? Keep adding to your blogs, add to your video content, add to what AI is going to generate from. Um be judicious in how you're using it. You know, I was talking to um to actually one of the kids last night who is um in early 20s, so part of that generation, and she said, you know, these businesses that are out there using AI for um for the tasks that use a lot of the water can come across as tone-deaf to us, right? To us and older generations, it may not seem that way, but she said, you know, there's a real sensitivity to that. So being mindful of that. If there's a way that you're able to um make contributions, you know how um a couple decades ago we started doing things to offset our carbon footprint and getting opportunities for that. Find a way to offset your AI footprint. The sooner people I think get on that bandwagon, and that's developing, right? I'm not sure there's an easy answer yet. Uh, but I think the more trustworthy companies will be.

Victoria Odekomaya 49:23

Yeah, and that's what we help with our clients too. We help them put relevant content, you know, out there so that AI can cite them.

SPEAKER_01 49:30

Right. Put out as much original content as you can.

Victoria Odekomaya 49:33

Right.

SPEAKER_01 49:34

And I think that's what is going to differentiate us in the future. There will be AI content

Outsourcing And Time As An Asset

SPEAKER_01 49:40

everywhere. Absolutely. But the more authentic, the more human you are, the more real and vulnerable you are, that's where the value is going to come. Yes. Create art. Right. Create, create, create. Because I don't care how how good AI gets, it can't create art or content the way you can.

Victoria Odekomaya 50:01

Right. There's something about that human element that is just always gonna be so valuable, so important to have.

SPEAKER_01 50:07

And thank goodness for that. Yes, yes, yes.

Victoria Odekomaya 50:09

Okay. So I don't get a lot of gifts when I do this, but you brought something here, and I'm very um, I mean, the candle is one of the things that I'm excited about. Can you tell us a little bit about this? This is so beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 50:24

Sure. I love supporting small uh businesses owned by women, especially. And a young woman named Keisha in uh she owns WikiWix in South Carolina, is a member of a group that that I'm a part of called Procurefind. And um, it's a it's a business group, and they you know look into contracting for small businesses with you know larger companies. And any event, I did these as client gifts, and she curates and creates a signature scent for your company. So she sent you all these samples, and you so we created the scent and or we told her the notes, the floral notes that we liked. She created it and made all of these for us and sent them to our clients. And um, she said, Well, now you have to name it. And so one of our lawyers actually said, Well, of course, the scent name is smells like success. So we love to put these out, you know, at events that we go to and things like that. So good.

Victoria Odekomaya 51:22

So we'll get a absolutely. It smells like success. I'm planning to be successful. So that's the same thing.

SPEAKER_01 51:28

You're already successful, Victoria. And I will send the link for her site for the show notes as well.

Victoria Odekomaya 51:33

Yes, absolutely. So now for people that are, you know, you've given us a lot of value today. Um, for people that are looking to learn more about your business and you know, contact you, how can they reach you?

SPEAKER_01 51:44

Sure. The website is peel lawgroup.com, P E E L E Law Group.com.

Victoria Odekomaya 51:52

Great. What about the the consulting farm?

SPEAKER_01 51:55

That's turnarounddynamic.com.

Victoria Odekomaya 51:57

Okay. Turnarounddynamic.com and peel lawgroup.com

Visibility, Trust, And Closing Links

Victoria Odekomaya 52:01

as well. We are gonna put all of that in the show notes. Thank you, Amy, for coming today and spending your time with us and also giving us a lot of real good, valuable information.

SPEAKER_01 52:10

I appreciate your time. Victoria, thank you so much. This has been a real gift to me, and uh it's been a pleasure to learn about you and your life and your business. So thank you very much.