Brave Enough To Try

Conversation with Pricing Coach + Artist, Jess | We talk the difference between pricing the value you bring versus your self worth, tapping into your intuition and staying curious to the opportunities that present themselves and more.

July 27, 2023 Cindy Moore
Brave Enough To Try
Conversation with Pricing Coach + Artist, Jess | We talk the difference between pricing the value you bring versus your self worth, tapping into your intuition and staying curious to the opportunities that present themselves and more.
Show Notes Transcript

In this podcast episode, Cindy interviews Jess, CEO and muralist of White Coffee Creative Company, who is also a pricing coach and mentor for creative businesses. They discuss Jess's journey to entrepreneurship, the challenges she faced, and the importance of finding paying clients. They touch on topics such as valuing oneself, niching down, and finding balance and sustainability in business. They also talk about the significance of pricing and separating one's self-worth from business decisions. The episode emphasizes the value of staying open-minded, curious, and present in order to navigate life's experiences and discover one's passions.

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Speaker 1 (00:00:00) - In this episode, we get a glimpse on how to price your skills, your expertise and the value that you bring to the table and the difference between tying it to your self-worth. We talk about trusting your intuition in life and in business and so much more. Hey, it's Cindy and you're listening to the Brave Enough to Try podcast, a show created to provide you with helpful life and small business tips, as well as encouragement and inspiring conversations with friends that I've made along the way so that you can be inspired to be brave enough to chase after your wildest dreams. Hey, it's Cindy, your host of The Brave Enough to Try podcast. Please join me in welcoming a very special guest in an online friend, Jess. Jess is a CEO and the talented muralist of White Coffee Creative Company, and she is also a genius pricing coach and mentor for creative businesses. Badasses. She helps her clients feel confident and helps price themselves right to build a business that they love using strategy and intuition. Jess, I'm so glad you're on the show today.

Speaker 2 (00:00:56) - I'm so excited. I'm so excited to finally get to talk to you. Besides in like the Instagram DMS, you know.

Speaker 1 (00:01:04) - I'm sure my listeners are like, Wait, what? Yes, I've been following just for a really long time. She is just such a beautiful person inside and out. And so whenever we do connect, we're always connecting in the DMS. But yes, I love being able to talk with you.

Speaker 2 (00:01:19) - Yeah. And I just want to shout you out that you sent me a beautiful package when you found out that I was pregnant. And I wear that shirt all the time. Your cool moms club shirt and my little boy. Where's that milk? Drunk one a lot. And it is the cutest thing. And it's so soft and beautiful.

Speaker 1 (00:01:37) - I love it. I'm so glad. Yes. I you know, I'm all about celebrating people, especially when they hit big, you know, little things, but also things. And so I saw that you were pregnant. And obviously my daughter is 11 now, so it's been a long time since I've been able to enjoy that.

Speaker 1 (00:01:51) - So getting to see that you were celebrating, that just made me so excited. So when I saw the ones, I was like, Oh, they gotta have it. They got to have it, Oh.

Speaker 2 (00:01:59) - You're the best, you.

Speaker 1 (00:02:02) - So I'm super excited to jump in with the first question. It's usually a question I ask everybody, but I'm actually really, really excited to hear your journey. I want to know if your journey to where you are today was a traditional route or did you branch out of an everyday corporate job to take on entrepreneurship?

Speaker 2 (00:02:19) - Yeah. Okay. So that's a good question. I feel like it's a mix of both. So the short story is that I got laid off from my like local small design firm that I worked at. But like the long version is I was really unhappy there and I was scared to leave. I was applying for other jobs, but there were no other jobs that were hiring or they wanted. They always seem to want interviews with people who didn't actually have a job because it would be in like the middle of the day.

Speaker 2 (00:02:50) - And I felt like they just wanted people who were like, ready to jump immediately. Um, but I say that like, being laid off was like one of the best things that ever happened to me. And I was like, super happy about it. I was like, Oh yeah. And to go back even further, when I was still in college, I got a job as a store artist with Whole Foods Market, So I was in the store. Yes, doing part design, part like chalk lettering and drawing and illustrations and such. And so I actually, when I got the design firm job, I went down to one day a week and then I got laid off from that job too. So I've been laid off twice. That was both times was like restructuring. It wasn't necessarily something that I did, which is what the definition of a layoff is, right? Not like firing. Yeah. But both times I got severance packages and I was like, This is great. This is the life.

Speaker 2 (00:03:44) - Like I am getting paid to leave, so I will take it. Um, and then I just knew I didn't want to go back to a 9 to 5. I wanted to be a stay at home dog mom at the time. We ended up adopting our second dog right after I got laid off from the design firm. And then I was just like, okay, let's go. Yeah, let's make it happen.

Speaker 1 (00:04:05) - When you were I'm curious when you were working for Whole Foods and you were doing that, did you feel like, Wow, this is I'm really good at this and I'm really enjoying this? I think I could potentially see this as a business.

Speaker 2 (00:04:18) - I no, I don't think that that even crossed my mind at the time. I think I was really scared of entrepreneurship because I didn't have a lot of connections or other friends in the industry. I really only had my bubble of what was in the design firm. Um, I also feel like I went kind of the traditional route too, because I have a graphic design degree and I know sometimes people don't and they're like, sometimes so much better, right? Like, you're like, Wow, there's so much talent.

Speaker 2 (00:04:46) - You didn't get like, bogged down by all the logistics of going to get a degree.

Speaker 1 (00:04:52) - I did the career thing and I and I loved it. It's part of my life that, like, I look back on so fondly, but there were also a lot of parts. I had to be really honest with myself and say I was very unhappy and I knew that eventually it was going to have to give or take, right? So I just decided I got to walk away from that. So unfortunately, I didn't get a severance package now. Oh.

Speaker 2 (00:05:15) - It's I think it should be standard when.

Speaker 1 (00:05:17) - You think that when you're transitioning out of a career, imagine how helpful that would be to people who are. Yes. Who need that, who need that extra support. Because I will tell you, like when the minute I knew like I think people always they always ask me, like, how did you know? And I'm like, oh, you know, like the minute, you know, you have to leave.

Speaker 1 (00:05:36) - You just know it becomes this like, aching in your soul and you're like, I can't do this anymore. I have to figure it. I have to figure something out. And I knew for me was it was like I have to save money. Like I have to be realistic. Like I have a kid, I'm married, I have a house. I can't just, like, up and quit. So realistically, for one whole year, I penny pinched and I did everything that I possibly could and I saved every cent that I possibly could because I knew that when I left, I needed a buffer, right? Like I needed a few months to keep me afloat until I figured out, like, what I was going to do. But I do tell people at the time I'm like, you know, when you know, like you just know totally.

Speaker 2 (00:06:20) - Yes. And it's I mean, name of this podcast, it's like brave enough to try, right? So like, I always admire people who decide to quit and it's not made for them.

Speaker 2 (00:06:32) - And I think I was just so obviously I didn't have savings. So I was like, I had already been working for this company for so long and I was like, I don't even know how to save. Like, let me just like And then it worked out like I got laid off. And I will say that it wasn't like instant success, right? Like I bartended for a bit. I like worked hourly for other design firms. Like it was a freelance, technically, like, um, but it was the like, okay, I'm going to stick with this. We're going to make this work.

Speaker 1 (00:07:04) - And I think, too, I think like, you're being so transparent, it's people need to know that it's not easy. Like you don't just, like quit one day and then like, you're an overnight success the next day. Like this whole year, I've just been trying to get my footing, so it's not like, Oh, Cindy's got it all together. But I will say that I'm the happiest that I've ever been because I'm pursuing something that lights me up and also mean It's fun, right? It's the process of like building something that you're going to be really proud of and helping people along the way.

Speaker 1 (00:07:31) - So I think it's really, really nice to know that other people who have had a similar journey, it's not like they had it all together and it's not like it all worked out, you know, right away because I think people get discouraged and I and that really that makes me sad because I try to tell people like, don't be discouraged, it's okay. It might take a little a while to get there, but if it's worth it to you, then it'll be worth it in the end.

Speaker 2 (00:07:55) - Um hum. Um. It definitely is a commitment, but it's like it's. Yeah, no, it's not easy at the beginning. I mean, it's not easy at any point, but like, it can get easier.

Speaker 1 (00:08:06) - Absolutely. And for me, it's like I would rather face challenges. In doing something I love, then facing challenges and doing something that I like don't really care if I'm doing it or not. You know, it's one of those things where it's like you're going to deal with challenges anyways, so you might as well deal with the ones that are going to help you move the needle forward in whatever space you want to be in versus moving the needle forward for someone else.

Speaker 1 (00:08:29) - I mean, that's just how I always think about it. I wanted to ask you to when you first started your business, what were some of the struggles that you were facing? What would you say was the hardest part of the journey? I mean, I know there's constantly struggles, but what would you say for you? Yeah, what it was at the beginning.

Speaker 2 (00:08:46) - I think it was finding paying clients because everyone will let you do something for free, but actually getting paid to do that and finding the like, I would say, caliber of clients that I was looking for, Not it took me a long time, uh, to be able to charge more than like $50 an hour, for example, right? Like some of my first like sign painting slash mural jobs were really low rates, whereas now I just don't do that kind of work anymore. And that's just because that's my personal preference. Like there are plenty of people out there that, that they would prefer that instead. Um, but yeah, I would say that the finding clients and I think that when I talk to coaching clients, that's always almost number one.

Speaker 2 (00:09:34) - They're like, how do you find more clients?

Speaker 1 (00:09:37) - It's true though. I mean, it really is true because when I started doing commission paintings, one, I was terrified of pricing myself because I thought, no one's going to want to buy from me. Like, this is crazy, you know? And then I started giving discounts to friends and family, and then you get kind of bogged down in that whole like, Well, I've only been charging this, so I got to keep charging this because like, I don't really know what if I don't get any more clients because I start up charging. And then it got to a point, it's really about reaching the people that are going to support me in like all the seasons of life. And so when I did start charging more, I was like holding my breath. But at the same time, I had people show up and say, Hey, I love your work and I want to I want to do that. From the moment that you say, this is what I'm worth, right? Because that's their getting to know you and they're wanting to buy directly from you versus like trying to reach everybody, you know, because you can't not everybody's going to like peaches.

Speaker 1 (00:10:28) - Always, always think, Yes.

Speaker 2 (00:10:30) - Okay. Yes. I love the phrase you're not a $100 bill. Not everyone's going to like you. And I think that in the beginning, that's in my opinion, that's what I feel like is the biggest journey in your business is I know niching down is like can be like a people don't love that. So it's not necessarily that, but it's just getting more specific with whether it's your audience, whether it's your offers, whatever it is. Like you can do a multitude of things, but also like how can we condense them so that it all makes sense? And where you're not offering everything under the sun to everyone, like, yes, my services have changed so much over the years. Like I used to do so many different things and that gets way more complex with pricing too, right? If you have like ten different offers versus two.

Speaker 1 (00:11:16) - Right? Also to imagine the burnout of trying everything for everyone. Yeah, I always think about that because I think like I only have 24 hours in the day and I want to work on my business, but I also want to spend time with my family.

Speaker 1 (00:11:29) - And I think that comes down to to like what is freedom look like for you? What does success look like for you? And it's going to look really different for everybody. And so I always tell people like, hold that at the center of what you're doing because you're not doing it for anyone else. You're doing it for whatever. Is that that reason that you get up in the morning? Like for me, it's Ella. It's my daughter. Like, I want to spend as much time with her. I'm obsessed with her people like, okay, you know, eventually. And it's like right now she still wants to spend time with me. And and there's going to be like a time she's looking at me right now. There's going to be a, um, she's going to go through that, that whole phase where she, like, wants nothing to do with me. So I'm just trying to, like.

Speaker 2 (00:12:06) - Soak it in.

Speaker 1 (00:12:06) - Yeah, soak it in because I don't know when that's going to change and I hope it doesn't change anytime soon.

Speaker 2 (00:12:11) - And, you know, you'll find your way back to each other, right? Like, but I know those teenage years can be Rocky.

Speaker 1 (00:12:18) - Says that to me because I'm very close with her now. And she's like, There was a time when you, like, didn't even call me or didn't check in. And I'm like, Wow, okay, thanks for that. But, you know, now now I just I can't imagine not talking to her every day. And I know that I'm really lucky to have her in my corner. But it's just kind of funny how we, you know, it's like bouts of changes, like we all go through those changes as we grow up because I'm and I still say that like, yeah, I'm in my 30s, but like I still feel like I'm growing up. There's still a lot of learning and and a lot of wisdom to attain. And I find that what I like now is very different from what I liked then. So like the 36 year old version of me is like, I love being at home.

Speaker 1 (00:13:00) - I love minimalism now, whereas before, like, forget it. If you would.

Speaker 2 (00:13:04) - Have said, Oh.

Speaker 1 (00:13:05) - I would have been a maximalist like to heart. And now I'm like, I just want to grow the veggies in my garden and I just want to like, connect with people on a deeper level. I don't want anything to be superficial. And yeah, it's just you find you find clarity as you get older and think the same thing with the business. Like you find clarity. The longer you're in it, the more that you are doing it. I think you start to you start to decide like, what is it that I really want and how can I get that.

Speaker 2 (00:13:34) - So much about your values and like figuring out what that freedom looks like for you and means for you and everything you just said, I can totally relate to. I feel like that's very millennial. Like all of a sudden we're like. We don't want any of it. Like, we just.

Speaker 1 (00:13:48) - Take it, take it, you know, simplify.

Speaker 1 (00:13:51) - And it's so crazy because this was just mentioning this earlier. This time last year, I quit my teaching job and I remember last summer feeling like I was in such a dark place because I just quit and my grandma had just passed away and I was like, what am I doing with my life? Like, where am I going? You know? And then fast forward a year and I'm like, Wow, this has been one of the best years of my life. It was so unexpected. I was supposed to move. I was supposed to already be away from Texas, and it didn't work out then. But now I'm leaving in three months and it's like, whoa, 90 days like that is crazy to me. But I wouldn't like I wouldn't trade it for the world. You know, we sold our house and people were like, You're crazy. I can't believe you sold your house and you're living in a 500 square foot tiny home. And I'm like, We you do what is necessary to get you closer to whatever your dream life is.

Speaker 1 (00:14:43) - And like like and like I mentioned earlier, this is a happiest I've ever been. I, I feel like I have everything that I need and more. I'm very blessed in all areas of my life and I'm like, ready? You know, like, I'm ready for that next chapter. And so whenever I talk to people who are like, just starting out and they feel super discouraged, I'm like, It gets better. Like, it gets better, like it, don't worry about it. It gets better. Just like keep putting in the effort, keep putting in the commitment. And I promise you that it gets better.

Speaker 2 (00:15:14) - Well, I just. I feel like all this stuff happens in, like, timing when you're ready. Because even, let's say, like, all of the success in your business, what if you had that right off the bat, you wouldn't be ready, Right? And just like you moving, you wouldn't have been ready. Like it wouldn't have felt. It wouldn't have felt right.

Speaker 1 (00:15:35) - Right. Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (00:15:36) - So wild how that happens, you.

Speaker 1 (00:15:38) - Know, And it's crazy. It's like you you I remember feeling really disappointed, you know, because everything was just, like, happening, like, one thing. And now I'm like, oh, my gosh, you know, the universe, like, really came and saved the day because I was nowhere emotionally prepared to take on everything that I took on. And I was not ready. Like, I can't even imagine if I would have been 3000 miles away from my parents. Like my dad was sick this year. And and I was able to be here and have the freedom and the flexibility to, like, take him to the doctor and, you know, kind of be in charge of his care and think to myself, what would have happened if I wasn't here? Like, what would have happened if everything worked out the way that it was supposed to. So I always find that so interesting because like, we might not know why it's happening when it happens, but looking back, I'm like, I'm so glad that it did and I'm so glad that it worked out the way that it did.

Speaker 1 (00:16:28) - And I'm very appreciative to everything.

Speaker 2 (00:16:32) - So beautiful.

Speaker 1 (00:16:34) - Thank you. I wanted to transition. I know I found you first from your like, your mural company. Like when I first saw your work online, I was, like, floored. Like, I don't even think I pinned so many of your beautiful murals. I was like, Oh, my God, she's incredible. Because in my mind, I was thinking like, I wonder if she would go to Hawaii and like, paint a mural for our container home or like.

Speaker 2 (00:16:58) - Oh my gosh.

Speaker 1 (00:17:01) - I'm saving you. And then I found your Instagram and then I found your like, website. And I was like, Oh my gosh, she has all these really great, amazing resources. And then I saw that you were coaching and I was I just thought to myself, That's so incredible how she went from, you know, being this like, creative full time, like running her creative business. And now she's in a she's in a place where she can support others and serve others so that they can also do the, you know, accomplish their dreams and do the things that they want to do.

Speaker 1 (00:17:30) - So I want to transition into your coach, your coach era. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:17:35) - Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:17:37) - Do you think that you became the coach that you wish you would have had for yourself when you first started?

Speaker 2 (00:17:44) - 100%. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:17:49) - I always imagine that that's the case, right? Like we, we, there's a gap and we think, Man, I wish I would have had this when I first started. And so then you offer that to someone else.

Speaker 2 (00:17:59) - Yes. I think that I was so scared to like, I didn't even know anything about pricing because even though the design firm that I worked at was really small and there were times where like, the owner would be like, Hey, what would you price it? Or how many hours would this be like? I understood hourly rate. But like outside of that, if you don't have to worry about like all those overhead costs, you don't, right? Like that's there are so many different things. So I think it took a lot of practice and mistakes, which I now call learning lessons instead of mistakes and failures.

Speaker 2 (00:18:34) - Um, but it took a lot of that to figure out like what is the system. And I also think that I naturally have a knack for the business side of stuff. So I wish and like I can accept that, that again, I wasn't ready to have all this so quickly, right? Like I wouldn't if I had been given a lot of these tools, it would have been too much for me. So I have found kind of like this sweet spot, I would say, with people who are in business at least a year when I work with them, like whether it's a side hustle, whatever it is, because I think in the beginning it is when you don't have a single product or service that you've sold, how can you understand pricing? Right? Because like you don't you don't know how you feel about it. You don't know how many hours you're putting into whatever it is, whether it's a commission painting or whether it's a gigantic freaking mural. Absolutely. Um. So, yes, though I do wish that I would have had the just like the approach that I that I give to coaching now where it is like this.

Speaker 2 (00:19:37) - I feel like kind of like a cheerleader. I feel like that's kind of what we are, really. And also just like, reminding people like, hey, you get to figure this out, however make sense for you. Like, trust yourself, trust yourself, trust yourself. And I think in the beginning of my business, of course, I didn't trust myself because I always had someone to answer to, so I didn't have to make all those decisions. So it was a lot about like learning how to trust my own intuition and and sense.

Speaker 1 (00:20:05) - Yeah, absolutely. And I think, too, I think I've had a question that gets popped up like my community members always ask, like, how do you know you're ready for a coach? Or like, how do you justify the investment? I'm like, if you don't, if you're too scared to invest in yourself, then what's that fear? What's that? To hold you back from letting the fear run your business. Right? Because if you go into it already being scared, then your business is going to grow out of fear.

Speaker 1 (00:20:31) - Like, I can't do that because of this, or I'm too scared to do that, so I'm going to stay small. I'm going to keep playing small and so I always tell them, I'm like, If you can, because I know not everybody can, which is why I create a lot of like free free resources because I know what it was like, you know, penny pinching and being like, I'm not ready to do that. But I do find that working with the coach, whether it's a pricing coach, a creativity coach, any sort of coach, they've been there, they've done it. They're not doing it because it's like, Oh, it's payday for me. They're doing it because they really want to take you by the hand and say, We believe in you. You can do this and you're 100% right. Just it's we're like cheerleaders, right? You're we're constantly supporting and encouraging them and motivating them and the whole like, pricing thing, you are 100% right when you you said something that was so important just just a little while back where a lot of the times when people are building their business, like pricing is not something that they first think of, you know, and I always I always picture myself when I was doing commissions, like I was working to like midnight, right? Like almost every day trying to finish.

Speaker 1 (00:21:34) - And I'm like, Man, I'm only getting paid a couple of dollars an hour if you really stop to think about it, you know. And so and I don't think people understand that. They don't understand that time is money. Like your time is so precious and so valuable. You don't it's a one thing you never get back. It's not like you can make more of it, you know? And so I think pricing should really be at like the the top, the top of the top when thinking about starting a business because you don't want you don't want to sacrifice your life to your business. You want your business to work around your life. Yeah. So I was just thinking about that because you brought that up and I was like, God, that's so important because I think a lot of people skip it or they're too scared. Like, I don't want to price myself that much because what if I'm a client?

Speaker 2 (00:22:17) - I think some of my biggest advice when it comes to pricing too is like working backwards.

Speaker 2 (00:22:21) - So like, take don't think about the individual sale, right? But like, think about like, how much do you want to make? And then let's break down what does that actually mean to you? And then kind of assessing your goals that way, Because I think a lot of times people are like, oh, well, 250 is way too much for a painting. No one's ever going to buy that. But if your goal is $50,000 a year, $250 paintings, you're going to need to do a lot of those to reach $50,000, right? So it's like just kind of understanding, adding that business sense into it where it's like, is this realistic? Because again, if you're trying to get out from under the 9 to 5, but then you go work for yourself and you're working till midnight and you're working way more than 40 hours, which happens and I think is normal. But also, like for how long, right? Like what is your threshold? Right?

Speaker 1 (00:23:13) - So yeah, always starting with the end in mind.

Speaker 1 (00:23:16) - I think that that's, that's such a great piece of advice. And I also think that it's not just good advice, it's strategic. Like it's a good it's a good way to like, look at your business and say, man, if I want to make $50,000 and I'm only charging $250 paintings, you're right. That is a lot of paintings. Do you want to take up all that time painting? I mean, obviously if it's something you enjoy, but realistically, is it sustainable? Will you will you be able to continue to do that for many years to come, or are you going to have to change your strategy? So I do think that having, like you said, your ultimate like price in mind, like at the end, like what is it that you want to make? And then figuring out how to make that realistically, but also sustainably, because like, I don't want to see people burning themselves out, right? Because they're in such a hurry to like try to make their like, money machines or like, I just want to make money, money, money, money.

Speaker 1 (00:24:10) - You got to be able to find time to.

Speaker 2 (00:24:12) - It doesn't work like that with creativity either, right? Like, we can't just bring it up on demand. I think a lot of things a lot of the time to people don't factor in expenses or like a salary, like a true salary or like a retirement account or any of those things. And so when they go and work for themselves, they're like, Well, I can't charge that. And it's like, Yes, you can. How much are supplies? How many bills, How much is your time? Like this is this is a business. This is not a hobby. Those are two very different things.

Speaker 1 (00:24:42) - Yes, absolutely. Yeah. When I was trying to justify buying one of these, like, sublimation printers, my husband's like, Yes, you're going to have to add that into your price. And I just started.

Speaker 2 (00:24:52) - Laughing.

Speaker 1 (00:24:54) - And I was like, Well, look at you being the money man. He's like, No, you have to take like the total price and you have to infuse it in your price.

Speaker 1 (00:25:00) - He's like, You can't just like, go and drop $700 on a printer and be like, Oh, it's fine, and keep your prices the same. He's like, You have to think about everything you're doing. I'm like, I'm so glad that you're my sound. You're like, my reasoning because sometimes, yes, sometimes. And and it works like this with people like us, like creative people. Sometimes we're a little squirrely. Like, we're so thinking about all the things we want to do, and then we're like, Oh, wait, I gotta. I got to take it down a notch. And I really got to think about what I'm doing because I will be the first one to admit I am very squirrely sometimes and it takes me a minute to pump the brakes.

Speaker 2 (00:25:36) - My partner is the same way. Like he's like kind of a sounding board for me. And it's it's so great because I am also a dreamer where, like, I'm like, What about this, this, this? And then I'm like, okay, hold on.

Speaker 2 (00:25:48) - I only have so much energy. And then he's like, Yeah, and what's the cost of that?

Speaker 1 (00:25:52) - So exactly. And that's, that's Andrew for you all the time. What's the cost of that? What's that going to really cost you? Yeah. And I'm like, What are you talking about? He's like, No, like really think about it wasn't really going to cost you. And I'm like, Yeah, time, energy, you know, I'm gonna have to put something on hold to be able to do something like that. But it's true. And, and I think for us, it's so funny. Most of the people that I talked to that are creative have a partner who is usually the opposite, that that's kind of like the opposite. Let me be your voice of reason and I'm okay with him taking on that responsibility.

Speaker 2 (00:26:24) - No, everything you said was so, so accurate. My partner was the first one to so like, I was really proud of making six figures in revenue, like two and a half years in.

Speaker 2 (00:26:36) - And I was like, look at me this is so cool. Like, didn't even try, but also like I burnt out. And he was also though, kind of this voice of reason where he was like, Yeah, you made six figures, but like, what did you bring home? And think That was the first time that I was like, Oh, right. It's about more than just what you, your income. You have to factor in those expenses and such. And he was running his own business and I feel like I've had a lot of like very masculine influences in my life when it comes to entrepreneurship. So there's a certain level there of just like, you know, finance advice is different for men than it is for women. Shout out to her her first 100 K slash financial feminist, right? Like you're on board with a lot of the stuff that she says like.

Speaker 1 (00:27:22) - It's absolutely.

Speaker 2 (00:27:23) - So eye opening and um so I've had a lot of like, you know, cis white men who have been my role models and that also while there is a benefit to that of course right because they're like more in the know there's also I it was like so masculine.

Speaker 2 (00:27:41) - I was constantly doing I wasn't feeling I wasn't intuitive in it. I was just like, boom, boom, boom. And I think that once I got past that point, I hit the burnout. I was like, Wait, I want to do this in a more balanced way. And I want to bring in just like, I don't know, just not that constant thing. And that's when coaching kind of came into play to where I was like, This is not just about me making money. Like this is also about me giving back. So what does that look like serving others?

Speaker 1 (00:28:09) - Yeah, being in the capacity to give back where you can and help others were where they where they need it. Because I think a lot of the times people don't realize they need help until you're like, That sounds like you might need help. And they're like, Oh yeah, you're right, I do need help.

Speaker 2 (00:28:23) - Or they don't even know that it's an option, right? Like, I didn't know Coach A coach was a thing until like three years into my business.

Speaker 1 (00:28:31) - Isn't that beautiful how you can change? Like you can evolve over time. And I always tell people, don't get so settled into what you're doing right now and expect that to be it forever. Like you're allowed to grow, like you are allowed to have your taste change, you're allowed to be a different person. And I think that that's the beauty of like being an entrepreneur. And even people who have full time jobs and are doing things on the side, I and some of the people that I've talked to, they don't want the side thing to be a full time business. They're just doing it because it brings joy to their life. And I always tell people, if it brings you joy, like that's all that matters. I mean, if you if you're able to balance it, awesome, go for it. Do it because like your version of freedom and success and what is what feels good to you and what is aligned to you is going to be different than what feels good. And it's going to be aligned to me.

Speaker 1 (00:29:22) - And I tell people all the time, like. For me, it's never been about like how much money mean. Obviously you want to have money to pay your expenses. Like obviously expenses. They're part of like, for me, think of it like it's just like a mortgage. It's just like a car payment. It's just like insurance. That is how I look at business expenses. I have to have them in order to be able to, like, live and survive and thrive in the environment that I'm in. But my overall like goal for me, time is so much more valuable. And so when people are always surprised, I'm like, Yeah, but look at I have time to spend with her, I have time to grow a garden, I have time to visit my parents. I have freedom to do the things that when I was a little girl, I thought never in a million years I would ever have the opportunity to do because I saw my parents working 14, 15, 16 hour days out in the hot sun, you know, and barely having enough to put groceries on the table.

Speaker 1 (00:30:18) - And so now I look at it and I'm like, money is important. Yes, but it's not going to be everything for me because I don't want to feel like I have to burn myself out or work until I'm blue in the face, you know, to be able to achieve the things that are important to me because we all have different values, like you said earlier, but you're 100% right. I think with the whole money, my husband brings in different energy when it comes to money than I do. And we always have this goal where at the end of the month we sit down and we have a real, real hard conversation of like, where's our money going? What is it that we want to have? What are our goals for the future? And I think it's important to have those talks with your partner, whether your finances are merged or not. Because, you know, because the point is you're growing together. And so the direction that you're going, both inputs are important because you can't you can't just grow on your own and leave your partner behind.

Speaker 1 (00:31:17) - Like it doesn't it doesn't work that way. And so, yeah, so we have those conversations and I will tell you, he is my biggest supporter here, even though he brings in different energy to the to the money situation, He's very he's the first one to be like, yeah, I think that's a good investment if it's going to help you grow your business, like go for it, that fills my cup up and l.a. Like, l is the cutest thing in the world. I know she's 11. She's kind of a little pre-teen, but she'll be like, Oh, mom, that was a really good episode or Oh, mom, you said a lot of ums in that episode. Maybe I can help you like edit them out. And so I just think it's so cute because it's like she's seen me do this and I imagine what doors are going to open for her when she gets older. Like what are the possibilities.

Speaker 2 (00:31:59) - That she.

Speaker 1 (00:32:00) - Think? Like if my mom did it, I can do it.

Speaker 2 (00:32:03) - Yeah. And again, like, I mean, I think our parents and our guardians create such a mold of like, what is possible or what do we never want to do, right? Like with you, you were like, I don't want to do that. And I think I'm kind of the same where like, I saw my dad work so much and I was like, He is tapped out. He's not here. Yeah. And yeah, that's not what I want for my kid, you know? Now also, I will say entering the motherhood space, even though I had dogs before I had a cat, right? I had a partner. These things, it feels different already. And I didn't I didn't believe anyone when they said this. But the priorities are so different already.

Speaker 1 (00:32:44) - Different? Oh, you just gave me goosebumps when you said that all over the body. Yeah, it really. It really is. I think everything shifts all of a sudden. It's not about you anymore.

Speaker 1 (00:32:54) - It's about this tiny little human being. And you're like, I'm responsible for them, you know, for. For us.

Speaker 2 (00:32:59) - So weird. It's so like, I'm still in the newness of it. I'm just like, it's so weird. Like, you're your own being, like.

Speaker 1 (00:33:06) - And, you know, and and motherhood is such an expansive and beautiful gift. And I know everybody does it differently, and there's no one size fits all. We are constantly bombarded with information from the people in our life and the people that we interact with and think sometimes we lose a little bit of who we are because we're so we're mirroring the behaviors of other people or even in business, like we want to be successful because that person is successful versus we want to be successful for us. And in motherhood, like when you're in charge of someone else, it's like a business. Like when you're in charge of your baby.

Speaker 2 (00:33:44) - Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:33:45) - Yeah. You you want it to be able to have the freedom to grow in the way that it's meant to.

Speaker 1 (00:33:51) - Because I'm going to tell you right now, like, I never in a million years thought that I would be like having a podcast or that I would, you know, be working with the clients that I'm working with right now. Like a year ago, I was just walking out of the classroom like thinking, What am I going to do, you know, with my life? Like, what's next? Am I going to go back to teaching and my I'm going to be a professor? Like, what is it that I'm going to do? Am I going to just work on my art? And then I had all these beautiful opportunities unfold themselves, and I thought to myself, this is this is it. Like, this is what I meant to be doing. And but I gave myself the freedom to explore and I gave myself the freedom for it to be what it is. And I think just like with our kids and with our businesses, like we should be willing to just let it be what it is.

Speaker 2 (00:34:39) - That's so beautifully said.

Speaker 1 (00:34:41) - Thank you.

Speaker 2 (00:34:41) - Jess. I'm just here to hype you up.

Speaker 1 (00:34:46) - My biggest cheerleader. I love it.

Speaker 2 (00:34:47) - Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:34:49) - I want to ask you, and I think this is a pretty important question. What was that a ha moment for you when you realize that, like, your intuition, like you trusting yourself was the guiding factor in your business?

Speaker 2 (00:35:02) - Oh. Oh, my gosh. I don't think that there's just a one moment, but I'll tie it into pricing. Right, Because that's what I do. I think it's it was like sending out a big quote and getting a yes and and over and over again. And it was like the first time was like, oh, I can do this. And then the second time was like, oh, shit. Like people. Sorry. No, it's okay. Yes. Okay. Um, like, oh, people want me to do this and I am adding this value to their businesses and that feels really special and kind of where I want to be right now.

Speaker 2 (00:35:46) - Um, and actually, you know what? Yes, All those moments and I will take it back one step. I think it was also saying no. To the wrong, to the clients who were not a good fit and being able to walk away without feeling guilty about it. Those were moments. There were there are a few that I'm thinking of that were around that like 2 to 3 year mark where I stopped saying yes, everything. And I started being like, I'm tapped out. Like I had a $40,000 potential mural project. And I thought about it and went back and forth with the client for like a month. And then finally I was like, I feel so overwhelmed by the logistics of what this could look like. There's no way I can not do this. Yeah. And I think that was literally about two, two and a half years in. And my partner was like, Jess, it's $40,000. And I was like, Yeah, but it's not right because it's like this, it's that.

Speaker 2 (00:36:39) - And that's where, like I was playing off. I was mirroring him where I was like, There's going to be so many expenses because it was out of state, it was out of town. Like I needed a lot of help on it. I needed specific lifts, like it was going to be a huge obviously with that budget was going to be a huge project and I was just like, No. And I have never regretted it, but it has been something that is stuck in my mind a lot where I'm like, Now I would totally do that. That wouldn't feel scary at all. That wouldn't feel underlined because I have so much more tools and I have so much more experience.

Speaker 1 (00:37:12) - Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (00:37:13) - But at the time I didn't have enough people who I could rely on who were supportive, who could help me with it.

Speaker 1 (00:37:20) - Oh, my God. I think.

Speaker 2 (00:37:21) - That's it. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:37:23) - And, you know, imagine if you would've said yes. And let's just say that it wouldn't have worked out.

Speaker 1 (00:37:27) - Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:37:28) - Or I would have stressed like, crazy.

Speaker 1 (00:37:30) - Yeah. Or I can only imagine the setbacks that I think it would have. It would have allowed in your business. I think. I think too, when we. If when we go in, when we do something that we don't want to do or we know, like in our gut, that it's not the right thing to do, I find that we end up getting less out of the situation and we end up we actually end up getting more problems. I guess that's what I'm trying to say. We run into issues because we're just unsatisfied. We're not happy with the way that it turned out or whatever the situation may be. And I think it hurts our confidence and it is definitely harder to bounce back from it then it would be if we just trusted ourselves and said this is not the right time.

Speaker 2 (00:38:10) - I love how you said that. It's such a full circle moment, right? Because it's like the more you say yes to those things that don't light you up, that don't fulfill your cup, that are like going to cause you stress, then the less confident you feel, the less excited about your business you feel.

Speaker 2 (00:38:26) - And then you're not going to trust yourself as much because you're not seeing those examples of you trusting yourself and it working out. And just like over and over and over and over again. Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (00:38:35) - You just get stuck and. Yeah, yeah. Like there's no way out. Absolutely. 100%. I love that you used what maybe some people would have been like, Oh, that's a negative experience as a way for you to say, No, I'm on the right path. Like this is. This is me trusting my intuition. This is me saying I'm going to move forward. And I'm so glad that you did because look at you now. Yeah, right now. Now you're confident. Now you're like, Yeah, I'll take on that project. No, no problem. You know, but like you said, you have the wisdom and the expertise and the experience now to be able to do it. Um, one of the things once talking about intuition and talking about that, I want to ask you, how would you encourage entrepreneurs to be able to tap into that intuition and also find the confidence to charge what they're worth? Because I think we're just constantly like second guessing ourselves.

Speaker 1 (00:39:22) - But what would you say would be a good practice of being like, This is how I would encourage you to.

Speaker 2 (00:39:27) - I first want to say the charging you're worth phrase can get misconstrued sometimes, right? Because sometimes we see worth as our inherent self-worth, right? So then we construe it as like we are our businesses and our businesses are us and we're not separating it and we're not seeing it as this business. Whereas when you can take that step back and you realize that you're adding value to the business or whoever your clients are, you're adding this like value and you have value that you're bringing to the table. It becomes you can like separate yourself a little bit and it helps you just like realize that you can charge more because it's not just a, well, what am I worth? Because that, like, that could be a shitty question. Like it can that can feel really weird because really we're all worthy. Yeah. Of what? You know, love acceptance, which is really what we're all doing when we create our art.

Speaker 2 (00:40:26) - Like, um, so that is, that was a reframe that I would suggest, right, of just like being like, okay. And so I've started to use the phrase like, charge your value, but even that still can get so it's there's a that's kind of a tricky thing, I think. I think as long as you know that when you say charge your worth or charge your value that it doesn't mean you just you I'll say it, not just you, that's really important. Um, and then when it comes to like trusting your intuition, I always say look for the examples where it's working out. So look for the examples where you said no to something or where you like, solve really good progress or just it's like the, the celebrations and the gratitude and just like noticing those things and then learning to be more appreciative of that. And then kind of eyeing like, how did you come to those decisions or how did those things happen?

Speaker 1 (00:41:20) - Yeah, absolutely right. Yeah. I've never had I've never had somebody put it so perfectly.

Speaker 1 (00:41:26) - Like I I'm like, I struggle with becoming the identity of what I'm doing. Yeah. Like I'm working through that in therapy. Like when I was a teacher, I was a teacher 24 over seven. Like, there was no way for me to separate my life from teaching. Yeah. And so I think you're talking about like pricing and charging what you're worth and separating the actual value that you're bringing to your client versus like what you're worth as a person. I do think that that's such a great like thing for us to do is to separate the two, right? Because you're right, it's such a tricky situation. I think that makes so much more sense now when people feel that anxiety of like, I don't know what your charge like.

Speaker 2 (00:42:08) - Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:42:09) - Because really they're tying it to themselves or tying it to like, oh but don't you know, but it's not about you. It's like, what are your skills worth? What are you charging per hour? Like if somebody else was going to do it for you? Like what? What would they charge? You know, think it's really seen it as a business and like really understanding that you are providing a service or a product, whatever it is, to someone.

Speaker 1 (00:42:32) - And that needs to be priced correctly, like that needs to be priced for what it's worth, not what. Your worth, but what the project itself is worth. I think that that's so like that is what people guys, if you're listening, I know some of you are very, like confused and worried about like what you need to price, but that is honestly just, just give you the best piece of advice. Like understand that it's not that you're, you're charging what you yourself think you're worth, but it's the value of the project that you are bringing into the world. Like you need to look at it like that.

Speaker 2 (00:43:05) - In business terms, it's that return on investment, right? Like what is your client, whether it is a painting in their home that they're going to look at for the next 60 years, or whether it's a new brand that someone's getting or a new mural that's going to attract more clients in. It's like that ROI, right? Like that term, if you want to get businessy, if you don't want to get businessy, there are so many other words you can use.

Speaker 2 (00:43:28) - Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:43:28) - Absolutely. But I think that that's such solid advice because I think that's going to kind of take some of that anxiety off of these of off of. Yes. Figuring out like, how do I price myself? I don't know what to do. But you're not pricing yourself. You're pricing the service, you're pricing the thing that you're bringing into the world. Absolutely. I love that.

Speaker 2 (00:43:45) - I think it hits a lot of us creatives really hard to because we are we put so much heart and soul into what we do. And so it's very hard to separate that and to be like, this is not about me all the time.

Speaker 1 (00:43:58) - No, I will tell you, I'm the first one to take everything personal and I'm learning like it's something that I've been working through in therapy because it's not about me, like and I'm learning that, you know, but it's taking like a really long time to get there. But it's because I do.

Speaker 2 (00:44:11) - It does.

Speaker 1 (00:44:12) - Though. It does.

Speaker 2 (00:44:13) - It takes forever.

Speaker 2 (00:44:15) - Uh huh.

Speaker 1 (00:44:15) - I know. Like, I have friends tell me, like you give away too much free stuff. You, you, you give too many things to people. And I'm like. I do that out of love like I do that because I want to celebrate people. I do that because I remember what it was like when I was first starting out and I didn't know what to do. So it comes from a place of serving others versus a place of like, what am I going to get in return from that? Because I don't I don't want to serve from a of a place of like, I'm expecting you to give me something in return. That's not where I that's not where I work from. I work from a place of like, I really hope that this serves you so that I can celebrate you later in life. Because I want to see people succeed. I want to see people give up their fears. I almost said like, give up. That's not what I meant, you know, like give up their fears and really, like, be brave enough to, like, dive in and do the thing because brave.

Speaker 2 (00:45:07) - Enough to try to.

Speaker 1 (00:45:08) - Try want them to be brave enough to try. You know, when I was coming up with a name, True Story. I originally started off the podcast called Creative Ish, and then I took a little break. And then when I came back, um, somebody else was using the name and I was like, Why don't want to like, take the podcast away from them? Like, that'd be kind of mean. I don't want to do that. And some husband was like, What are you going to do? And I'm like, think maybe, maybe it's just not time, you know? Like, maybe it's just not it. And then he looked over and he was like, You know, you've always been brave enough to try like, you are one of those people. And I was like, What did you just say? And he's like, Yeah, you've always been brave enough today. And I was like, That's, that's it, man. He was like, Really? And I'm like, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:45:45) - And so I immediately, like, trademarked it. Like, I went like, full on, on it because it just felt so right in my heart. It felt so good. And I was like, Yeah, because here's the thing. Like, this is my second. This is my second chance at life. Like I walked away from a career that I loved but also was super unhappy. You can love something and still be unhappy. Like I want people to understand like those two can exist together.

Speaker 2 (00:46:08) - Like relationship advice.

Speaker 1 (00:46:10) - Yeah, it's the truth. Can like love something and still be truly unhappy, like in life. And so when I walked away from that, I was really like, scared. I was like, What's the next chapter like? What is what is it going to be? And, and I wanted to be I wanted to stay open to all the possibilities that the universe wanted to to provide for me. And I'm so glad that I did. And I'm so glad that my husband decided to tell me that I was brave enough to try.

Speaker 1 (00:46:34) - He was like, You're always brave enough to try things. And I thought to myself, That's it. Because I want people to at least be brave enough to attempt to do the thing that they want to do. We don't always have to have the pieces together. We don't always have to know everything, but we have to at least have the belief in us that like, we can do it. So why not try it? Because you'll never know, right? You never know unless you try. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:46:55) - So cool.

Speaker 1 (00:46:58) - So I'm getting ready to wrap up the end of our conversation, which makes my heart so sad because I really have loved talking to you. Just I think this is the longest interview interview that I've recorded, but I really love getting to spend time with you and honestly, like getting to know you. And I'm telling my listeners too, you guys have to go follow her. She's amazing. But getting to know you over the last year has been such a gift for me. I feel like it was just meant to happen.

Speaker 1 (00:47:24) - I don't know. I'm really into all the woowoo stuff in the world, but I do. And I and I'm so excited to like, be a part of your life and for you to be a part of my life and get to watch your little baby grow over the.

Speaker 2 (00:47:36) - Years.

Speaker 1 (00:47:38) - For that.

Speaker 2 (00:47:38) - Maybe we'll come to Hawaii. Yes.

Speaker 1 (00:47:41) - Open invitation. Absolutely. You are more than welcome to come anytime. And we can have little pain sessions on the beach. Yes, it would be so fun. The last question and I ask every single guest this question, it's what advice would you give people who are scared to go after their dreams and passions? If you you could tie this into like personal experience or advice someone's giving you. But just like if someone needed to hear this today to light a fire under their booty, what would it be?

Speaker 2 (00:48:11) - Um. Okay. I literally pulled this Oracle card, and it's kind of been coming up for me. Um, and it says curiosity. I can show it to you.

Speaker 2 (00:48:21) - It's literally from this, um, gorgeous deck. And so I feel like it is this idea of just being curious and being open to. The circumstances and kind of taking the pressure away from just like taking. Yeah, taking the pressure away. Like not even necessarily having a goal in mind. Just being like, what is the next step going to be like? You don't. It's the opposite of pricing where you don't have to have that end result in mind, just like one step at a time. Like how can you continue to be curious and open and to like see what feels good and what resonates and what doesn't?

Speaker 1 (00:49:06) - Mhm. Absolutely. Yeah. That's such good advice you know. You know what it made me think of when you were saying that. It made me think of when people say stop and smell the roses. Yes it does. It makes me think of like yes we have all these goals, Yes there's all these things we want to achieve. But if we're not being present in the moment that we're in and we're not just like, you know, honing in on gratitude and being appreciative for the things that are happening, then it's going to pass by so fast and we're never going to have a chance to really enjoy it again because it's not like you can it's not like you can go through the first time over again, right? Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:49:39) - You're going through these experiences, stay open minded, stay curious, enjoy the process, because sooner or later you're going to be like me. You're going to be 36 years old looking back and being like, Whoa, that was crazy. Went by so fast, you know? Yeah, no, take your time. I love that. Stay curious, Stay, stay open because you never know what's going to fall in your lap. That was.

Speaker 2 (00:50:02) - Yeah. And like, you never know what's going to like ignite that spark in you either, especially if you don't know what you want to do yet. So it's like you're getting to try the things by being present. You're actually present and living. Yeah. And being like, Let's go down this path today. Let's go down this path, you know?

Speaker 1 (00:50:22) - Yes, absolutely. Oh, just thank you so much for being on the show with us today. I'm just so excited that I got to talk to you today. For all of our listeners, I'm going to plug in just as all of her information in the podcast notes.

Speaker 1 (00:50:35) - If you guys have any questions, you guys know where to find me. And until the next episode to continue the conversation and come join me over at Instagram at it's Cindi Moore or at Brave enough to try podcast.