EP63: Stories that Sell: Entrepreneurial Storytelling with Jennifer DeWitt

Stories sell. Period.

Case in point: have you ever closed a good book with a sense of connection and satisfaction at the journey you've just been through? That's the power of storytelling, and it's not just for books!

This week I'm joined by copywriting whiz Jennifer DeWitt to unravel the art of spinning tales that captivate clients without the hard sell.

Jennifer helps entrepreneurs weave their narratives into marketing gold, proving that even the most everyday experiences can capture your audience's heart and shares how these stories can enrich our lives and businesses.

We talk about how to balance content that serves with stories that sell, and dissect how to turn client transformations into testimonials that don't just sing your praises but tell a tale of real-life magic.

We wrap with a heart-to-heart on navigating the entrepreneurial waters while keeping our personal life afloat. Touching on my shift from education to entrepreneurship to Jennifer's own journey, we explore the importance of authenticity and empathy, both in client relations and personal endeavours. It's about finding your circle, setting boundaries, and valiantly wearing the many hats life throws our way – all while crafting a narrative that rings true to who we are, in and out of the boardroom.

Guest Bio:

Jennifer DeWitt is a website copywriter and storytelling expert. She supports female founders around the globe to craft value-centric, story-driven content that leaves people going, “Hell yes, I want to work with her!”

As a former librarian, Jennifer believes in the power of words, research, and storytelling. Now, she's on a mission to help more business owners expand their impact by harnessing these tools. She’s here to help you sell without ever sounding sales-y.

When Jennifer isn't working, you’ll find her hanging out with family, sipping coffee, or with her nose buried in a book.

Connect with Jennifer:

• https://www.instagram.com/jenniferdewittcopy/
• https://jenniferdewittcopy.com/
• Snag the freebie: https://jenniferdewittcopy.com/story

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Hey business blasphemy listeners. This is Michelle Denio, the host of the Real Truth About Business podcast, the show dedicated to small business owners and solopreneurs like you, who are sick of all the bullshit advice out there about what it takes to grow and scale a sustainable and profitable business. Each week, I give you the real and straightforward truth about sales, marketing, offers and pricing, and how to create a strategy that aligns with you. Check out the Real Truth About Business podcast, but for now, you're listening to Business Blasphemy. Here's your host and my Sarah Khan.

Speaker 2: 0:41

Welcome to the Business Blasphemy podcast, where we question the sacred truths of the online business space and the reverence with which they're held. I'm your host, sarah Kahn speaker, strategic consultant and BS busting badass. Join me each week as we challenge the norms, trends and overall bullshit status quo of entrepreneurship to uncover what it really takes to build the business that you want to build in a way that honors you, your life and your vision for what's possible, and maybe piss off a few gurus along the way. So if you're ready to commit business blasphemy, let's do it. Hello, hello, blasphemers. I am very delighted Is that a thing? Very delighted. I'm delighted, very uber delighted, to have Jennifer DeWitt here with us today.

Speaker 2: 1:24

Jennifer is a website copywriter and storytelling expert. She supports female founders around the globe to craft value-centric, story-driven content that leaves people going hell. Yes, I want to work with her. As a former librarian, Jennifer believes in the power of words, research and storytelling. Now she's on a mission to help more business owners expand their impact by harnessing these tools. She's here to help you sell without ever sounding salesy, and when she's not working, you're going to find her hanging out with family sipping coffee or with her nose buried in a book Jennifer. Welcome my first question what genre?

Speaker 3: 2:02

I read a little bit of everything, honestly, like I have always read a lot of young adult stuff because I was a school librarian for a long time. Also, books written for middle schoolers are freaking cool now, like they're so good, they're so good and they're such good series. I love a good long series. So then I don't have to like figure out what I'm reading next. It's just oh, the next book.

Speaker 2: 2:29

Oh yeah, like it's been such a delight to like experience books and series through the eyes of my teenager, who's 15 now. She started reading at a young age, like she's. She's also a budding author, but she started into the young adult, young adult fantasy stuff, right. So Shadow and Bone, like all of those, and she actually got me into that genre and I started by reading Shadow and Bone, that whole series. I think there's like seven or nine books and, holy heck, it's a really good series and so we've kind of been expanding from there. I introduced her to the Hunger Games and it's just been. I've been rereading the Hunger Games. I was like wow, these are so different from the movies, because I hadn't read the books again since the first time I read them, like a hundred years ago. It's been fascinating. So, okay, cool.

Speaker 2: 3:12

So we have a lot in common, because I was also in school, I also taught. Obviously I was in school. Let's clarify, I knew what you meant. And coffee I mean obviously coffee is life, it's the epidural of motherhood. So tell me a little bit diving, sort of, because we pivot really quickly here. Tell me a little bit about what you do, how you serve your clients, like the bio is pretty clear. But like from a perspective of because I mean people know what a copywriter does but like how do you help people become expert storytellers?

Speaker 3: 3:42

So that is a side of my business that is still growing and expanding. I've always loved stories. That's a huge part of just my identity. Growing up, I was always had my nose in a book, always was writing, always was reading, and then I became a school librarian and I then, when I pivoted to the online world, went into copywriting and wrote all kinds of copy for people, from emails to sales pages to social media to websites to all the things.

Speaker 3: 4:13

And the common thread that I saw that I just loved and was drawn to which shouldn't have surprised me was helping people tell their stories and all these different pieces of content, and so I love doing that with my clients.

Speaker 3: 4:29

We have different processes depending on the client and how they sort of want to do things, how I get those stories from them, because obviously I'm not walking around with them all day, every day, going, ooh, that thing that just happened to you, that would make a great story for your blog or whatever it is.

Speaker 3: 4:45

So they will sometimes send me voxers of just like, oh, this really funny thing just happened and I think you could use it for an email or whatever it is. Some of them we get on like a monthly zoom, call and talk about different things and take notes and all of that stuff. But I also love providing storytelling tips to people who follow me on Instagram or to my email list and just I have a free, a freebie which I know we'll probably talk about later. That's 100 storytelling prompts that can help people like just get into that mindset of oh yeah, there are interesting things happening to me all the time, because I hear a lot like I can't tell stories. I'm not a writer, my life's not interesting. I mean, my life's not like super interesting either, but there's so many little nuggets of things like just going to Starbucks, you're going to see something or witness something or be a part of something that is worth sharing with other people and, honestly, most of the people following you don't have crazy lives either, like they.

Speaker 2: 5:48

I mean social media will often tell you otherwise, but you're absolutely right.

Speaker 3: 5:52

Yeah, but like most of the women that I support, they are also, you know, moms or their partners, or they have dogs or they, you know, drink coffee and read books, and like they do the same things that I do all day, every day. So by me telling them those stories from my life, it builds that connection and trust with people.

Speaker 2: 6:13

So like what would you say to someone who is wanting to tell more stories? Because me personally, I have an email list. I do love emailing people versus posting on social, because I do think it's much more intimate. You can cultivate stronger relationships through email. But I hate sending them because I never know what to write and having an inbox that is constantly full. I don't want to be adding to people's overwhelm and contributing to the noise. So I love the idea of crafting stories. So what would you recommend to somebody who's like how do I start to find daily inspiration? Like, yes, absolutely, we're going to talk about your download and I'd love people to cop that, but how do you find daily inspiration? What sort of mindset are you walking around with?

Speaker 3: 7:00

I'm always thinking about how does this relate to something else? Like what can I I'm I call myself a lifelong learner, like I'm always looking for, like what's the story here? What's the lesson here? What can I take away from this? And that's definitely something I bring to motherhood, to my poor kid all the time I'm like but what can we learn from this?

Speaker 1: 7:23

He's like I don't want to learn anything from this Like I just don't want to.

Speaker 3: 7:27

Yeah, so, but I think that's sort of the mindset that I go into with most things, like what can I learn here? And so then I'll pull it in. I sent an email to my list. It was a while ago where I ended up pulling things around and talking about AI.

Speaker 3: 7:41

But it started with we have a smart refrigerator, which is the most ridiculous thing. But like, it has, like you know, the screen on the front where you can put your grocery list in. It also periodically apparently, scans the inside of my fridge to see what we're out of. It is not accurate, but at all like. But it'll give you suggestions to be like well, you need some more milk.

Speaker 3: 8:04

And it kept telling me I needed baby food. And I was like I don't have a baby, my kid's 14, like I haven't had baby food since long before we had this fridge, and but it was just funny like it kept in my suggested things kept going you need baby food, you need baby food, and so I wrote a story about that and tied it around to like sure, smart technology is great, ai is great, robots can help you, but please don't let them just make all the decisions for you and pulled that back around, but it was just a weird story of something that was happening in my life that I thought was funny and could pull back into a lesson for for people creating content.

Speaker 2: 8:47

I think it does require a bit of, I guess, a reframe in how you go through your day-to-day life, right Like because I I know that we don't often look at what like cause, like you said earlier, we don't often look at what's happening to us as like story worthy or tell worthy or, you know, post worthy even. And I think the, I think the follow on question that I would have is for people who are like well, you know, I have things that I want to share, but then tying it to, let's say, an offer, or I don't want to come across as too salesy or like I'm using this story to connect, but now it's coming across as salesy. Where's the line, or the not the line, where's the intersection, I guess, of being able to tell a genuine story and wanting to share value, but also honoring the fact that you get to sell what you've got to sell?

Speaker 3: 9:38

So for me, I always have to frame how I'm thinking about selling as that I'm serving other people. I'm not pushing something down their throats. I am not asking anyone who doesn't want something or doesn't need something to buy it. I'm not interested in attracting clients that don't want what I have to offer them. So I just have to like view it from a and here's an opportunity that I have for you that I think would support you with this, and if they want to take that opportunity, amazing. And if they don't, that's okay too. I just never want it to cut and I think it's hard because we do and most people I work with are very heart centered, value driven people first, audience first sort of business owners and just men's like they. They are not in it to be hard sales people. That's not what they want to do or how they approach things. So I just have to get in that mindset of I'm just offering them support from what I'm talking about rather than I'm selling, like I think some.

Speaker 3: 10:46

Sometimes it's just like serving versus selling and thinking about things that way.

Speaker 3: 10:51

But it is a fine line to walk and it's hard and sometimes you hit it out of the park and it's great, and sometimes it's like I kind of fudged that one, like you know, I mean, and you just have to try, and the first time you tell a story it may not be the best.

Speaker 3: 11:06

It's like the first time you do anything, like first time you host your podcast or first time you write a blog or do anything. It's not going to be the best, but the more you do it, the easier it gets. And I kind of, when I'm looking at stories, I'm like is this funny enough that I would like tell my husband about it, or that I would like text my friend about it or tell my mom about it. Like you can sit and have a cup of coffee with someone and tell them about something funny that happened during your day. You can also craft that into sharing stories with people, and your story doesn't always have to end with selling. It can just be a call to action of like finding out something that happened with your people too action of like finding out something that happened with your people too.

Speaker 2: 11:51

Right, and that's, I think, an important reminder is that we don't treat content creation as a two way conversation. Right, we're always talking so much about you've got to engage, you've got to engage, and we look at content creation and engagement as two separate things, and the call to action has always got to be a sales related call to action. But I love the reframe of you can send an email and just ask people how they're doing or what their takeaway is or what their insights are, and invite conversation. I don't think we do that often enough, so thank you for that reminder.

Speaker 3: 12:17

And I think some of the best replies I've gotten to emails are when I like tell people a show that I just finished watching or a book I just read, and I just ask them what are you watching right now? Like, do you have any recommendations of something I can binge watch, because it's going to be raining all weekend and I don't want to go outside? Or you know, like I think that just asking people questions and getting them engaged because the more people feel connected with you, the more likely they are going to invest in you at some point Like it may not be right this second, but building those relationships is how you're gonna get your best clients and customers and stuff anyways.

Speaker 2: 12:55

And that's important, right, the connection piece. It's a long game and we talk about this a lot on the podcast with pretty much everybody who comes on. I think the one thing that we all have in common and I've noticed this because, if y'all don't know this already, I'm very intentional about the people I let on the podcast and it's very often people who understand that relationship building and business building is a long game it's not something that happens overnight, it's not something you can force, it's not something that you can just fudge. So, on that thread, is there something because I know your specialty is website copy A, is storytelling on a website a good idea? And B, is that something that needs to be updated regularly? I know this is a weird question and it's a little bit more like logistics, but is it something that should be updated? If you have like a really, really good story, at what point does the story become irrelevant, or is that even something that happens?

Speaker 3: 13:50

Yeah. So I feel like with your website, that's like your core brand story, Like, especially when it comes to your about page, that can be tweaked and updated, sort of as you are, you know, growing as a human, as a business owner, what you're offering. But I also think with your website, you're coming to these like core stories and those don't change as often. So like, yes, there should be storytelling elements in your website, both your story and sort of the story that you're taking your future client or future customer through, like helping them see the transformation that they're going to experience. Because your stories don't always have to be about you, right?

Speaker 3: 14:32

Like you can tell stories of what is possible for people, you can tell client success stories. That can be a huge component of your website, whether it's testimonials or whether it's if you have like a case study or something like that on there too. Like that is also an element of telling a story, because people are going to remember like, oh yeah, I saw that they worked with that client and they had huge growth or they had whatever it was, and that sticks with people more than just facts and figures do. And you need to include facts too, Like some people love you know has seen like they had X percent growth or whatever it is. But having those stories is memorable to people.

Speaker 2: 15:16

Yeah, I did not even twig to the fact that a testimonial is essentially a story.

Speaker 3: 15:21

Yeah, I mean, I guess it depends on the testimonial. If it's just a sentence like she was so great, then that's not like Not so much a story. Yeah, I mean, I guess it depends on the testimonial If it's just a sentence like she was so great, then that's not so much a story, that's actually a really great question.

Speaker 2: 15:31

then to ask is if you are crafting or getting testimonials from people, what sort of format do you recommend they get them in to help craft that story of a transformation?

Speaker 3: 15:40

Yeah, so I usually, if I ask for a testimonial, I try to ask specific questions of people like say, what would I get? We'll ask them like, what was your overall experience? Like, would you recommend working with me to other people? But then also like, where were you with your website copy before we worked together and how do you feel about your website copy now? So it's giving people those prompts of the before and after that helps them talk about their transformation and their experience.

Speaker 2: 16:12

Right. So, taking that broader, when you're crafting a story, let's say, for content purposes, what's the structure that I mean? Just in a really sort of high level way, what sort of structure are we looking at to create a story that's compelling, that doesn't end up being, you know, a 17 scroll post, but still kind of gets the point?

Speaker 3: 16:33

across. What does that look like? Yeah, and I always want to preface that when I talk to people too, because I say you have to tell a story and they're like I can't tell a story, I'm like I'm not talking like Tolkien level, like we're not writing the Lord of the Rings here, Like 17 pages to describe a tree.

Speaker 3: 16:49

Yeah Right, exactly Like you were more to the point than that. I always tell people to start with some kind of hook, like something that's going to draw people in, cause you are still especially if it's like on social media competing with that fast scroll. Everyone's like just keep going. So you want something to kind of hook people in. You want to have a hero quote unquote of your story, which again that's. I feel like I'm getting into like teacher mode there, because then people are like I'm not a hero.

Speaker 3: 17:16

I just went journey, yeah like I just went to target. It wasn't like some epic journey that I took, but someone who the story is about. There needs to be some level of conflict or problem. Again, we're not talking about like you had a massive falling out with your best friend level of conflict. It just could be like what was going on with you that morning or whatever it is. That's like the problem and then some sort of resolution from that problem. So it's not. Again, these can be like really short snippets of things. It doesn't have to be super long, but essentially a story has to have someone who. It's about, something that's going wrong and then some way that it comes back together.

Speaker 2: 17:59

Very simple, very straightforward, and I think we overthink it a lot.

Speaker 3: 18:02

Yeah, we make it a lot harder.

Speaker 3: 18:04

I think that it has to be.

Speaker 3: 18:05

Again, I try to like, remind people, like if you could sit down with one of your friends over a cup of coffee and tell them what happened to you in like the carpool line or something like that, then that's a, that's a story. You don't really, maybe, think of it like a story, but just relaying something that's going on is telling a story, and it's not always again, it's not always about you. You could be telling a story of like I worked with this client and this is the transformation they saw, although I will preface with like if you're talking about someone else, whether it's your kid or your partner or your client I always recommend that people get permission before they share stories, and sometimes it's fine to share a client story and not give a lot of detail so that no one's going to know who it is or what's going on in their business or things like that. I will say, now that my kid is getting older, I tell less and less stories about him and I always ask his permission, because he's on social media now too.

Speaker 2: 19:03

That's so. It's as an aside. That is such a strange thing. Like when she was younger, she was totally like, okay, being on my reels, and she wanted to. Like she had her own youtube channel, like she was really into it. Now that she's a teenager, this like gen z, they do not, they do not really want to be on social media. They consume it, but they don't want to be on it, which is is fascinating to me. Hey, yes, right, like she has social media channels but she doesn't post anything of her own unless it's content related. So like she creates a lot of story related edits and she's on Wattpad and things like that, but it's all like none of it has her face, none of it has her her name, and it's a fascinating experience, particularly for our generation.

Speaker 3: 19:44

It's a fascinating experience, particularly for our generation, and it's funny, like because my son too is on social media now and he will post a story sometimes, but it's almost never pictures. It's like text on things or like a screenshot of something. If you go to like his grid, it's like I don't know, maybe four things or something. Like he never posts anything there. He does a lot of theater stuff so he will sometimes, at the end of a show, post like some of his favorite pictures from the production or something but they're never personal.

Speaker 3: 20:13

No, it's never like, you know, selfies with him and his friends or whatever it is, but which I kind of love. Yeah, I was going to say, I think, because they're growing up with it, we've been talking about it for so long and they're more aware, whereas I feel like our generation got social media more as, like young adults. I started on social media when I was in college, but I didn't have that when I was in high school.

Speaker 2: 20:41

Definitely not middle school, it was a novelty. I didn't have that when I was in high school. Definitely not middle school, it was a novelty. I mean I remember bulletin board systems back in university, you know BBSs, where you were like covert sending people messages and it felt very clandestine. But it wasn't. And yeah, it was a very different life two generations ago, Back in olden times, Back in the 1900s.

Speaker 3: 21:01

I know my son loves to say that he's like what was it like in the 1900s?

Speaker 2: 21:05

I'll tell my daughter, if she uses that, she's disowned. But you know, yeah, so what would you say then? Are some of the things that people get wrong when it comes to storytelling?

Speaker 3: 21:21

Honestly, I think the worst thing you can do is just not do it's like just be afraid to be like telling a story. I do think that people can get hung up on not wanting to talk about their life at all, and I think that there are levels with that right. Like you may not be comfortable sharing your really personal stuff that you've got going on. Like you may not want to talk about your marriage or your partnership or your kids or the heart trauma that you've been through. You don't want to talk about losses or things like that, and I think that's okay and perfectly valid and people have to have their boundaries.

Speaker 3: 21:57

And I think it's still okay to let people in a little bit like to tell those stories of like I keep going back to going to Starbucks or going for a walk or going like just these little micro glimpses into you as a person, especially because I work with a lot of people in like the coaching industry and stuff, when people are partially investing in you and how you are showing up. So I think giving people those little glimpses, I think, too, like people can make the mistake of well, if I'm telling a story, it has to be super long and I have to give a lots of detail and make it really like long and juicy and then they lose people because it's just too long and no one's going to read an email that they have to scroll seven times to get through or just thinking their life is too boring.

Speaker 2: 22:48

I know we talked about that before but like the boring stuff is what people relate to, because most people's lives are a little boring, like I don't know it's refreshing, especially given everything that we've been bombarded with in the last three to five years and I mean maybe before that, but I was offline before that there's been so much of like look how fascinating my life is and look how extremely I live. And you know, look at the poolside and the champagne and the private jet. Like I, for one, covet normality. Like I want to see that there are people like me who, you know, go to school, drop off in sweatpants and a mismatched T-shirt and versus the mom who looks like she's a Hallmark movie extra all the time, right.

Speaker 3: 23:40

Because that's not who you relate to. Because that's not who you relate to like. We talk about building those connections and relationships because people are going to invest in you when they feel like they know you and they can trust you and they're connected with you and your brand. And if all they're seeing is like pictures of like poolside beautiful things and perfectly clean houses or whatever it is like, that's not relatable to me.

Speaker 2: 24:05

I'm like it fuels resentment and like shame and all of these weird negative emotions, like I okay, I'm going to share something that I it sounds really obvious now that I'm saying it, but it really has taken me 48 fricking years to get to this point. I was scrolling, I want to say, instagram about a week ago and came across this woman and she's a clothing influencer, I guess a fashion person, but she's not the typical size zero, blonde, tall. She has a body like mine. And she was saying why are you following fashion bloggers and fashion influencers who don't look like you? Because then, when they try clothes on and you're like I would never fit in, that I would never look like that, you feel defeated. And I thought to myself, holy diner, like yeah, that makes total sense.

Speaker 2: 25:02

And since then I've started becoming more intentional, because I love makeup videos. I don't wear a lot of it, but I love watching just how ridiculous people are with makeup. But I've started following intentionally beauty influencers with brown skin and I never thought to do that which sounds again ridiculous now that I say it out loud and maybe it was because there wasn't a whole lot of people to follow, but just the simple act of following people who look like me has made such a difference in how I feel when I scroll. I can only imagine how much better it feels to follow people who have lifestyles like yours. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 25:40

And stories like yours.

Speaker 3: 25:42

And I have unfollowed business owners who give great tips and there's great things on their feed, but they're always talking about like and last year I three times my income, or 10 times my income, or I'm like. That is not a reasonable business practice. Like, if you talk to anyone, not in the online space, if you go talk to like a construction company or you know whoever it is, they're not going to tell you oh yeah, every year we double our business from the year before, or we triple, or 10 times no, like, that's not real business work. Right, that's not how it works at all. A hundred percent. It's not sustainable. Like, maybe you did have an amazing year, great, it's not going to happen every year.

Speaker 2: 26:24

It's an anomaly, Right yeah? And this whole like eight figures, seven feet, like the rush to that finish line is just. It's why the, the, the industry is, is in the state it's in right now. But that's a podcast episode for another day, because this is a rabbit hole that I mean, if I go down this one, we're going to be here all day. I would love because we're talking about stories for you to share your origin story, like how did you come to entrepreneurship?

Speaker 3: 26:50

Yeah. So, like I said before, I was a copywriter. I was in the education space. I was a teacher and an elementary school librarian, which I absolutely loved that job, that world and as a parent.

Speaker 3: 27:04

It was hard, with both me teaching and my husband is also a teacher for us to ever show up for anything for our own kid. It seems counterintuitive, like, oh, it's great that you're both teachers, you have summers off, you have winter break off, yes, and there's also a lot of things that like it's meet the teacher day Great, we're both teachers, we're meeting students. We can't go meet our kids teacher. Like there's just was a lot of things that weren't allowing me to show up the way I wanted to show up as a mom. So I decided to look for other ways that I could still work and earn an income and have something that was mine, that I was doing, but have the flexibility to show up for my kid and just take care of myself, my own mental health, our home, all the things. So I started to look in the online space and was a virtual assistant for a little while, because that was like what I saw is like the door in.

Speaker 3: 28:08

I didn't know anything about this, but I can be a virtual assistant Like I can reply to emails, I can do these things, and I did that for a little while. One of my first clients was an author and a speaker and I did a lot of writing for her because that was what she was doing a lot of. So it was like pitching different things or helping her write her blog, or she created a lot of content in her business and a lot of it was repurposing some of her stuff. She had written a couple books. There was a lot of pulling her stories and things out of that and sharing in different ways and I just really loved the content creation, copy side of supporting her and supporting my other clients and yeah, so I pivoted into copywriting and here I am.

Speaker 2: 28:56

Yeah. So how do you, how do you balance entrepreneurship and having a business with your personal life, especially because you, you are a mom, you are a parent, cause that is something that you know for the first few years of me becoming an online entrepreneur, even though, very similarly like, I left my job so that I could be more present for my kids and then ended up spending all of my time working on my business and working for my clients, and so how do you balance that as a parent?

Speaker 3: 29:28

I try to set pretty I say strict it's not super strict, but I try to set working hours as though I was going to a job, and of course there's flexibility there hours as though I was going to a job and of course there's flexibility there. Like if my kid is sick or needs to go to the dentist or whatever it is, or I need to go to the dentist or something. You know, something happens. I do have more flexibility.

Speaker 3: 29:50

It's not like I have to ask for time off, but I try really hard to have working time when I know he's going to be at school. And he's older now too, like he's 14, almost 15. So that's a little different too. I don't, like I do want to be present with him and do things with him and he doesn't need me to be with him as much of the time as when he was younger. Like it's that transition, although now I try to take even if I'm going to work a little after he gets home from school, I to work a little after he gets home from school. I intentionally take a break when he gets home from school because that's when he's going to talk to me about his day or if he needs help with homework, which thankfully he rarely does because I'm out of my depth.

Speaker 2: 30:34

No, he's in high school.

Speaker 3: 30:36

No thank you. Right, I can help with the English papers or the social studies stuff, but when he pulls out like the science book or his geometry book, I'm like, I'm really sorry, integers Like what the heck is an yeah, a hundred percent, a hundred percent, yeah, no, I can't, so thankfully he doesn't usually need my help with that, he's pretty self-sufficient in that department.

Speaker 3: 31:01

But I make the time and space when I know there's going to be opportunities for us to connect or whatever that I have that like, I build that into when I'm working, and sometimes that's weird hours or whatever. There are also times that I like work in the car while he's at a theater rehearsal or you know I work and then spend time with him in the afternoon, then drop him off at something and then I work a little more in the evening and I just try to build my time around what I know I'm gonna have that time and space. I also try to take on less projects over like the winter break, um, and summer break. To some extent. I mean, I don't take off the whole summer because that's a long time, but it really is a long time. But I try to take less extra projects on and things like that, right, just to kind of open the space up.

Speaker 2: 31:52

That's. It's interesting because my, my daughter, like I was saying, she's 15 now she's going to be driving this year, which has me a little bit. I don't know how I feel about that, but I also have a six-year-old and so I'm doing it all over again and it's been fascinating for me to kind of look at it from, I guess, an objective perspective of yes, my 15-year-old is pretty independent now. She need me, need me to be constantly there. I mean, we do have very intentional time in the mornings and you know, around bedtime and things like that. When the six year old is home, it's a completely different ballgame because she does require constant attention and presence and it's, it's had.

Speaker 2: 32:38

I mean, it was 100% one of the drivers for me leaving my job because I had a boss that was incredibly insensitive to the fact that I was a mom. It was COVID, they were both home, it was, it was, it's a. It's a long story. I mean it's not a long story but it's not a story for today. And what I found was, particularly in the earlier years of my business, it was hard to juggle having clients who didn't get that but were paying really well, and this kid who needed a mama all the time, like I need a juice box, I need to sit in your lap, I need a hug, like that constant need of younger children and that ended up having a really big influence on how my values evolved and how I now, I guess, choose the people that I am willing to work with, and it's only recently and again, I don't know why it's taken me this long.

Speaker 2: 33:29

It has, that's all I can say. The journey was long and painful, but I'm at this point now where I'm fully leaning into the fact that I only want to work with moms because they get it and certain types like there are moms who maybe, whose kids are fully grown, have kids of their own. They don't seem to remember a lot of the time and they still kind of treat you as though they're child free and you're not. But it's evolved how I look at the people that I want to work with, right Like my values have. Really, how have your values changed or evolved or how do they, I guess, shape your business approach as a parent, as a mom and as somebody who you know? I know you, I see you on social, I follow your work, like you show up for your clients. How does that all kind of intersect?

Speaker 3: 34:22

show up for your clients. How does that all kind of intersect? Yeah, so I think that how I do everything as a copywriter is very people-centered, value-centered, like we talked about, like the serving versus selling, telling stories, doing all these things. I think how I approach selling and writing and all of these things is very person centric. Like I always want to think about the person on the other side of who I'm talking to, and that is a core value of my business, and I tend to work with people who that is one of their core values too, and when we're creating copy for their business, it's very important to them that we are writing website copy. That is not like all about manipulating people's pain points and like of course, people are in pain. People have problems, obviously, yeah, and they know they have problems. Like you don't have to like harp on and push on that problem and that's probably not how, like that's not how I want to someone to find me or work with me. I don't want them to feel pressured and shameful and manipulated into working with me. So I think how I approach things is very like let's show people what's possible for them. Let's show people that they're supported, that they're seen, that they're valued and that if you're the right fit for them, you want to support them and work with them, and so I think that those values have shaped the kind of clients I work with, how I work with them and for them, and all of those things I also want to work with and I think, because I'm a mom too, I don't work with exclusively moms.

Speaker 3: 35:55

I work with exclusively women. For the most part, I've worked with one or two men here and there. I do work with a lot of women, though, and a lot of moms and I. They are people who want to have that flexibility in their life.

Speaker 3: 36:07

One of my clients isn't a mom, but she is a caregiver, like she has her mom that she helps take care of, and that's a huge part of her life, and that has to be like that, has to be her top priority, and I feel like people who understand that, yes, your business is important and your family comes first or the people you love come first, whoever that is, whether that's like your partner, your friends, your child, your parents, whoever it is that like that's who I'm drawn to working with. I feel like it was hard for me to have a ideal client quote unquote. Early on I was like I just want to work with nice people who are understanding of the fact that I have a life and I know that they have a life and it never bothers me if, like a kid, is on a call, and I think too, working as an elementary school teacher for so long, I get like excited when there's kids there too.

Speaker 1: 37:03

Oh, 100% Like.

Speaker 3: 37:04

oh, it's a kid, I know how to talk to them.

Speaker 2: 37:07

It's like when other people get excited to see a dog on the screen right. Like I'm like that with kids, like I just and I think, like you, you raise an interesting point that, yeah, like I prefer to work with moms because they get it. So moms with teens and young kids. But really I think all of us we want to work with people and this may or may not be, it's going to sound how it sounds. We want we want to work with people who understand they are not the priority in our life, like we're going to show up for you, we're going to serve you, we're going to make sure that we fulfill our commitment to you.

Speaker 2: 37:35

But you are not the most important person in my life and I think the biggest challenges that I've had with clients have been those clients who want to be number one in your life. It's like, unless you've put a ring on it or you know I've given birth to you, you're not like sorry, and for some, for some people, that is really hard to stomach because they're paying you and it's yeah, it's. It's one of those things where it can be really challenging to stand in your values around that, but it's, it's so, so critical.

Speaker 3: 38:06

Yeah, and I think part of like one of the things I highly value too and this is all tied back to that is clear communication with people. Like I want to let them know when we work together this is how I'm going to show up for you and these are my boundaries and when I will work and when I won't work, and these things, and everyone who I have set those clear expectations up front, because early on I did, was not good about doing that. I didn't let people know up front this is what you can expect. And then I would get upset later when I was like how dare they expect that I reply on the weekend, you know, whatever it was, but I was like well, technically, I never told them that I wouldn't do this.

Speaker 3: 38:48

So I think like that's become a big value for me too is communicating. Here's how I work, here's how I want to support you, here's how I show up, and that can be things like a PS in your email signature or that can be an automatic reply email or something you post on social or in your client onboarding however you structure and do things. But I think communicating with people this is what you can expect gets ahead of a lot of those problems. Not always, there's always going to be the clients who don't care and yeah, but those are the ones that I don't work with for very long. Thankfully, I haven't had very many of those people Like I've had a lot of really lovely people that I've worked with.

Speaker 2: 39:28

Yeah, yeah, for the most part, I've had phenomenal clients and it's been, it's been wonderful, and I've actually, like you said, I actually have an email signature that says I'm sending this when it's convenient for me and I invite you to reply when it's convenient for you, like I never expect a response because email is never urgent. Let's be honest, you know my, my sub agreements now my contracts actually do very clearly state I have kids, they're my priority. They may show up in a zoom call or two. If that's going to be a problem, let me know, cause we might not be the best fit. It's something that I've learned over time that you have to make it clear. Like you said, the communication piece is so, so important. So what do you think is the smallest or most impactful thing someone can do right now in their business to start incorporating more of themselves, more of their story, more of their values, their lifestyle, like whatever they're comfortable sharing? What's like the smallest thing someone can do right now to move closer to that, if it's something they haven't been doing yet?

Speaker 3: 40:32

So for me, one of the things that I like to do and this may be helpful I know we talked about earlier, like identifying stories and things going on I just have like a notes app on my phone that, when something interesting happens or I think of something funny or see something funny in a television show like your story may not be about you, it may be like, oh my gosh, I rewatched this episode of Schitt's Creek for the eighth time and this time, when I watched it, this line hit me this way, or whatever. Like I make notes in my phone so that then when I'm writing content later I can go back and look at it and go oh yeah, that's something I could talk about. I totally forgot that that happened last week or yesterday or whenever it was. So I think like keeping notes for yourself, whether it's like a note, a physical notebook or something in your phone. Sometimes I send an email to myself and then I just have like a folder where I drag the crazy emails that I send to myself.

Speaker 3: 41:32

Yeah, like whatever is the most convenient for you. Or I have Voxer. Sometimes I will leave myself a voice message, like my clients leave me voice messages if I'm out and about. So whatever is like just little things like that, and then you can go back later and re listen to or read and go. Oh yeah, that's something I could pull in, like that doesn't feel too big or too scary or whatever to share. And I think it can start with like just talk about a book you're reading or talk about a TV show you're watching or something you made for dinner, like some recipe that you tried that turned out terribly or that turned out amazing or whatever. For me sometimes it's more terrible than amazing. But you know, like whatever that people will relate to, and if you don't want to write it all out in a big long post, maybe just post something in like your stories on instagram. It doesn't have to be, like we said, like a big epic novel. You can just sell like little bitty, like micro moments here and there oh, micro moments.

Speaker 2: 42:37

I love that Sarah's writing that down. Micro moment Hashtag that I can't spell. Okay, micro moment, that's fantastic. Thank you so much, jennifer. This has been so great and I would love for you to share with everybody where they can find you, because, yeah, you need to be, you need to be followed, you need to be in everybody's life. Where can we find you? On social media.

Speaker 3: 42:57

So on Instagram it's Jennifer DeWitt Copy and that's my website too, jenniferdewittcopycom, because there's apparently a lot of Jennifer DeWitts in the world and they already have the other websites, so those are probably the two best places to find me is my website and on Instagram.

Speaker 2: 43:15

I'm still a Facebook boomer, like I'm just. You know Facebook and Instagram are my thing. I'm not going to go to the fancy place, I'm going to stay where it's comfortable and people know me. It's like the Cheers bar. For those of you who don't know, google it, but you know because we're from the 1900s. Anyway, it's been so wonderful to have you. And if you're not following Jennifer, please go and follow her Instagram.

Speaker 2: 43:43

Your lead magnet the 100 storytelling prompts. Thank you, I'm going to go and download that right away. We will put all of those links in the show notes, as always. Once again, thank you so much for being here and, friends, remember you can have success without the BS and I will talk to you next week. That's it for this week. Thanks for listening to the Business Blasphemy Podcast. We'll be back next week with a new episode, but in the meantime, help a sister out by subscribing and, if you're feeling extra sassy, rating this podcast and don't forget to share the podcast with others. Head over to businessblasphemypodcastcom to connect with us and learn more. Thanks for listening and remember you can have success without the BS.