Katherine Wolfgramme
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Andy Gott: . [00:00:00] Katherine Wolfgramme welcome to Tracks of Our Queers.

It's a pleasure to have you here. 

Andy: Thanks 

Katherine Wolfgramme: for having me. 

Andy Gott: I'd just like to begin by, Knowing, what was your earliest musical memory? What was playing in your home as you were growing up? 

Katherine Wolfgramme: Well I was raised in a very strict Seventh Day Adventist household, so I grew up with church songs really, and when we weren't listening to church songs, we were listening to country songs.

Country music. . , which is basically how I grew up. Mm-hmm. , it's sort of, I had a very sheltered, very strict upbringing. Mm-hmm. Very boring for a young child. Cause I was raised by my great-grandparents, so that's my grandparents', parents, grandmother's parents. So, yeah. So it was, it was very boring.

But you know, it's given me a very diverse love of music. I love everything from country to opera to. To reggae. Mm-hmm. . So, and I suppose that's, that's, I can contribute that to, to my upbringing. 

Andy Gott: And where was your [00:01:00] upbringing? 

Katherine Wolfgramme: Melbourne. I left, I was born in Fiji in 1972, so I'm 50 years old.

And I arrived in Australia in December, 1974. 

Andy Gott: So how did you make it to Sydney?

Katherine Wolfgramme: Well I transitioned in Melbourne and Basically I came up for I think it, I think it was Sleaze Ball or, or Mardi Gras, one of, one or the other. And I never planned to stay, but I just arrived and I realized that this was my spiritual home. I had arrived where I was meant to be, so I, I, I literally ran off to the bright Lights of Sydney and I never returned to Melbourne.

I mean, the good thing was too, you know, when you just transition, it's I think it's quite healthy to sort of leave your past behind you and start a new, you know, like like, you know, Muriel, how she went. She became Mariel. Well, I became Mariel. I came to Sydney and I became Mariel. And it was a great new start for me where I didn't know

and [00:02:00] I could literally begin anew as Katherine and, and it was yeah, it was a great way to grow up. 

Andy Gott: you have since transitioning, witnessed so much change in the world and society and you've been a part of much of that change. How do you feel. What you've accomplished, perhaps 

Katherine Wolfgramme: what I have accomplished, what you've accomplished?

Well, I don't you know, you don't sit around and count everything that you do, you just get on with it and get things done. I think for me, I, what's important is that I leave my world a better place than than I arrived in it, especially for transgender women. So I just sort of try and do. What's right and when something is wrong, I try and make it right.

And you know, I do this for trans kids and in the hope that their future will be a better future mm-hmm. than the future that I was given. 

Andy Gott: Could you tell me more about. [00:03:00] your time in the cast of Lay Girls. 

Katherine Wolfgramme: Oh, well it wasn't something that I had planned and it was really quite by accident because you know, I can't dance. I'm a terrible dancer, . It's true, it's true. Nobody has ever said Catherine is the best dancer and that's the truth. And you know, anyone will tell you. That that's old enough to remember. I figure in about 10 years when they're all dead, I'll start telling you all. I'm a, I was a great dancer, but it's great. great, but until then, I'll just have to tell the truth. So Lay Girls, it was the late nineties.

Kings Cross had already shut down. So Lay Girls was only touring the, the country and. They had there, there was a kerfuffle on the road. They sacked the dance captain and the, and another girl. So they were short two girls and they just needed one to fill in for Wollongong. And they basically begged me [00:04:00] to please come down to Wollongong and fill in this once.

Andy Gott: We need you to fill in for Wollongong. 

Katherine Wolfgramme: And, and I do, you know, and I wasn't really too keen cuz I was a showgirl in Sydney already. I was a well-known showgirl on Oxford Street. . And I wasn't too keen about going to, you know, Wollongong that was like un gala to me, the back and beyond. So but I, I went, it took two hours to get down there.

They bribed me with lots of money I did the show. And then afterwards they said you know, after we got back the following week. Then I got the call. They said, oh we'd like you to join Lay Girls. And I was like, no, not really. No. But then I looked into my crystal ball and I saw my CV and I saw lay girls written on it and I thought, you know what?

If I did this just for a year or two, It would open a lot of doors for me later on. And of course as well, it's you know, it's, it's a, it's a famous name, [00:05:00] especially in Sydney and in across Australia. It's, it's, it's one of those household names. So, and, and it has done me well. I've I. I have traveled to different cities across Australia, and as soon as I say I was in lay girls doors fling open.

Andy Gott: I've gotta say, I mean, here I am asking you about it now, but before I came to Australia, my only reference of lay girls was what I knew from Priscilla Queen of the Desert. Ah, where even in that, Film, it's a bit of a passing comment. It's not even discussed too much in that, so I kind of had an idea of it, but yet obviously being in Australia, it is like you say, a bit more of a household name. And it's a door opener. 

Katherine Wolfgramme: Well lay girls training too is you know

Andy Gott: bootcamp, 

Katherine Wolfgramme: well, no, it's Polish. I did a show last weekend at the Ivy, at Poof Doof. I'm the queen of the door at Poof. Mm-hmm. . So it was very safe for me to perform there, and I thought it would be a great treat for the, for the children to, to watch something different.

And it really was different for them because they had never seen. This style of show before you know, [00:06:00] and it's and, and it was wonderful to be able to share The finesse that the lay girls legacy has taught me to a new generation. 

Andy Gott: Can I ask what you performed? 

Katherine Wolfgramme: I did Never Been to me. When I was traveling with lay girls, it was actually called the Priscilla Show. Right. And never been to me was the track that was allocated for me to do. But I, I had already been doing that number anyway for years in Sydney, since the early nineties.

I, I, I don't know, somehow I think I've manifested that song I have. My life has become 

that song like I've done. So many amazing, incredible things in my life. I've traveled the world. I've, you know, stayed in palaces. I've, I've amazing things, and yet I have been to paradise and I really have still not been to me.

I've never been married. I still don't have children. And all those things that the song says, you know, it's sort [00:07:00] of like. That's me. And I even cried for unborn children when I was like in my thirties. I cried that I wouldn't have daughters. I wanted so much to have children, but times were different Then I, I suppose had I been born 20 years later, I'd be 30 now.

I would consider after adopting a child. . But, you know, I don't wanna put my hip out, catching a ball. So I, I'm just not going to be looking down at that. Right now. 

Andy Gott: I think that is a perfect segue into your selections. I've gotta say I'm surprised that you didn't pick, I've never been to me as your track, but now that you've already spoken about it, I feel like I've got a bit of a bonus out of you, so what was the track that you picked and why? 

Katherine Wolfgramme: Where do you go to my lovely, I think the other name for that song is Marie Claire. Because, 

you know, but the, the cover version by Right said Fred.

That's right. I, I I, I came [00:08:00] across the song accidentally probably around 2009. Mm-hmm. . I hadn't heard the song before, and I'd already lived a life , I, I, you know, I'd already been trans for at least two decades, I think. But. I heard the lyrics and it was actually on my birthday.

At the time I was living in Perth, I, I was in Dalesford on holiday. All I know is I heard it and I played it back again and again cuz the song just really resonated. As a trans woman, from the early nineties, you know, we didn't have much to survive on except our charms and we weren't given much in the way of employment opportunities.

You could either be a sex worker, a girl or a stripper, you know, none of them was anything to do with academia. We were pigeonholed into a very, very small box, and somehow [00:09:00] we had to survive. And I was fortunate. My great grandmother, the way she raised me, I became a lady really, as soon as I became a girl, I was well-mannered and well-spoken and, you know, doors opened for me that would otherwise be shut for many other trans women.

I was dressed by designers and stuff like that in the nineties, and I'm still dressed by designers now. I can see and you know, but it sort of, you know, it was a very unique life and, and, but the life was built on my charms. Mm-hmm. on my beauty, on my charms. You know, it was a very superficial and shallow life if you really think about it. Even though all I was trying to do was live.

And that is what that song's about really. And so it resonated with me very deeply and I burst into tears when I heard the song. It was like, oh my God, this is my life. It's sort of [00:10:00] like, you know, nobody knows what I've been through.

All they see is this glamorous veneer. and that's why it meant so much to me. That's why I chose the song. 

Andy Gott: When you shared it with me, I listened to it and it sounded familiar straight away, and it's because I realized a few years ago, I came across the original, which I think is from the late sixties perhaps.

You know, my initial thoughts on the song was a, it was a little bit schmaltzy, but I couldn't help but smile listening to it and then hearing what you just had to say about the layers of the lyrics and that it talks about this very, on the surface, beautiful life, but it's quite superficial.

Hmm. I I'm really grateful for you sharing it. 

Katherine Wolfgramme: Well, I mean, you know, we're in Sydney, of course, surface matters, , you know, but now I don't have to use my veneer. I can actually use my brains to do the things that I do and I'm very grateful for that.

Andy Gott: Did you notice a shift over time in your [00:11:00] self-satisfaction or fulfillment when you felt like your work was being valued for your brains and your intelligence rather than? your looks, for example. 

Katherine Wolfgramme: Yeah. The other thing too is, you know, your looks are only, it's a finite time. You know, how long am my looks gonna last for? I'm, I'm shocked they've even lasted . Well, they're still going. They should have, they should have run out about 15 years ago when I was 35. 

I didn't have much ambition to be honest when I was young. I, I really, honestly, I didn't, you know how some people, they want to be rich. Or they wanna be powerful or they want to be famous. I never had that sort of desire from life. What I really wanted to be was a glamorous woman, and, and that is all I wanted from life.

You know, and I suppose as I've gotten older, I've wanted more, but that's only because I realized I couldn't have kids all of a sudden. You know, I, I, the unborn children, I cried for. So, Now in my legacy years, and that's where the [00:12:00] advocacy comes into play. And you know, at the moment I, I'm working very hard to leave something behind to make a difference. 

Andy Gott: What was the album you picked and why? 

Katherine Wolfgramme: Ah, that was Princess Taboo by Vica and Linda Bull. Those girls. You know, the fusion is very similar to mine.

They had part European and part Pacific ancestry. They also were raised in Australia and their music shows the fusion of Pacific Island and European music melded together. To create this unique sound that resonated with me. 

Princess Tab was my favorite album right through the nineties. It was my love making album. And you know, like the the first track was when I sort of, you know do the unveiling , and then the second track would be all the passions. And then the third track would be lying there [00:13:00] in in the afterglow and Yeah, I, I just loved the sound. Have you heard it?

Andy Gott: Have. I heard it. So this is firmly your story, Catherine it and not mine. My partner is in a band and last year , their band were performing with Paul Kelly and Vic and Linda.

A long, long history with Paul Kelly. I think many of the tracks on the album that you picked were co-written with Paul Kelly. Yes. and Vicar and Linda have supported in backing vocal capacity for years, and when they were on stage, it was the most starstruck I've been in a long time. Mm-hmm. , the power that they held on that stage. They were not the stars of the show, but they were the stars of the show. 

Katherine Wolfgramme: Well, the harmonizing you see is very, to sisters, only sisters could really harmonize Yes. The way they harmonize and also the, the way that they sing it really, it comes from far deeper than training.

It comes way [00:14:00] deep in their dna. All the way from the Pacific and it reaches across to Australia. . , it's very powerful music. Well, their title, princess Taboo, it ha is a double entendre. Okay? So taboo has two meanings in the Pacific. It it means Forbidden Princess or Sacred Princess, right?

It's one or the other. You know, in trans women, we were a taboo subject for many, many, many years. So that taboo it really did appeal to me. And also too, you know back whenever emails became, you know, Hotmail suddenly became a thing somewhere during the nineties. And these two boys I was working at Stonewall, and there were the two.

Solomon said, Hey Catherine, we'll set up your email. Do you want an email address? I said, what's an email address? And they're like, oh, I'll just give us, give us a name and we'll set it up and you can learn to do it later. It's, it's how you send emails. I said, what's an email ? 

They said, just give us something,, anything. And I said, [00:15:00] oh, princess Taboo at Hotmail. Oh and , but mine's double O T A B. You know? And by the time I had the thing to actually think, oh, I should go back and get the Princess Taboo, t a b, it was gone. 

Andy Gott: Vika and Linda had probably nabbed it.

Katherine Wolfgramme: No, a young girl nabbed it. Oh, in, in Canberra. I sent you an email I, I just wrote Princess Taboo at Hotmail. She said, you know, she was 16 and she loved the, it was her favorite album too. Yeah. And, you know, so that was kind of cool.

Andy Gott: I love that. I love that story. Ha. Have you ever met Vic and Linda? Have you crossed paths? 

Katherine Wolfgramme: Well my cousins know them. They, I'm from a very well known singing family. There's the Wolfgramme sisters in Melbourne, and there's the Jets in, in America. They, they had number one hits through the eighties and the early nineties. 

Andy Gott: Sorry, what? 

The jets as in the jets from like, 

Katherine Wolfgramme: That's right. They're wolf grams as. 

so, but I mean, I, you know, I mine beautifully, but I can't sing a [00:16:00] note to save myself. So my cousins have played with Vika and Linda. They've sung with them, they've, they've backup sung for them and all that

Andy Gott: I just knew the songs that I'd seen them perform on stage, but listening to this album, the songs that really stood out to me were only in my dreams. So beautiful. Yes. So soothing.

That's. 

The Afterglow song, I, that's the after 

I, it gives me Afterglow, and also between Two Shores. And I dunno if I'm reading too much into that, but I think, think Love Two shorts feeling kind of torn between two 

Katherine Wolfgramme: cultures. That's right. Mm-hmm. . Well, that's exactly, you know, and I, that, that's why this, there's this music so appealed to me mm-hmm.

On, on so many different levels. Mm-hmm. You know, far, far deeper than the surface. 

Andy Gott: What's the representation of trans people in Fiji today? 

Katherine Wolfgramme: It's getting better. You know, it's sort of, it's still got a way to go. I mean, there's a trans woman murdered every year in Fiji, so it's not , it's not peace, love, and mung beans, [00:17:00] but Fiji, I, I, I don't know if you know this, but I'm the first transgender woman in Fiji to be granted a female name by the Fijian government.

The following year the government added the protection of L G B T people to the Constitution. They were the first country in the Pacific to do so. I think there they're a lot more forward than a lot of the other countries in the Pacific, but in the same time, trans women are being murdered every year.

Mm-hmm. . So there's still a lot more to work on . Than. I might go to Fiji next year. I'm considering it. My aunt, she's the director of Fiji Fashion Week. My aunt, she was trying to and I was very reluctant to go, because, you know, the laws, I mean, I caught them by surprise. They just, they, they. I think they didn't realize what they were doing when they, and then they realized I wasn't going away and it wasn't gonna get any easier [00:18:00] that I was, so it was sort of, give it to her and get her out of the country.

Yes. It took her, took about three months. It took le I had lawyers and everything else, and then my family stood behind me and I, which is amazing, you know. Well, I'm from a good family. Sure. So when you sort of go, you know, in Fiji, if you're from a good family and the family stands behind you, right. Who is anyone to criticize And so So in the end they were, I think they were like, oh God, you know, just give it to him.

Get her out. Where 

Andy Gott: did the confidence come from? I can't imagine the intimidation that someone might have felt, I have ptsd. 

Katherine Wolfgramme: T S D, right. So it's not a confidence, it's a belief. Believe that I am right? Mm-hmm. I believe that I was made this way. I also believe it wasn't my fault.

I believe God made me this way. I have an innate belief in myself, in my [00:19:00] transsexuality that this was not my choice and therefore, because it is not my choice, I should do, you know, not suffer for this. Why should I? 

I woke up, it was never g it was never like, oh, I want to be a woman. It was never like that. I found out I wasn't a. I found out at a very young age that I was not a girl, and that's when my feeling of injustice started. I feel it was a complete injustice. Mm. And and I feel that, you know, all the, the legal injustices and everything else, I, it's, to me, it's a violation.

It was a violation against me in my innocence. And that's why I believe in myself so much. It's about, you know, justice. Mm-hmm. . So when we changed, when, when, when the government gave me my name, [00:20:00] I felt that a justice had been finally served and, and I could travel the world as a woman. . You know, and, and I do feel injustices all the time.

That's what drives me to take legal action when I do, you know, it's like, because it is injustice. You know, like, why should people make fun of trans people? Like, why, you know, that is an injustice. Mm. So, you know, so, so, yeah. So I take. I get the lawyers to take , you know, but, but that's what it's about.

And I, I suppose people do ask me where I get, you know, where my strength comes from. But it is because it's the innate belief that, you know, I did not choose to be transgender. It's just what I was given and this was an injustice. And then the discrimination I faced was a violation against me as a. Being my human rights were, you [00:21:00] know, violated over and over and over again.

So there's a pushback from me. I goes, go. Right. No. And that's what pushes me. Hmm. Spectacular. 

Andy Gott: Katherine. Who's the artist that you selected and why? 

Katherine Wolfgramme: I chose Sarah Brightman and there again, you know, it's all about Fusion with me. It's all about different, two worlds coming, colliding and creating something different.

And with Sarah Brightman as well, it was definitely fusion. I saw my first opera when I was seven. my second opera when I was eight was Carmen and, and so I've sort of always, you know, love a little bit of drama and you are the drama opera , you know, and Sarah's got that incredible voice.

That beautiful voice that I have always wanted. I always wanted to sound like Sarah Brightman, if only I could, you know, it was that perfect [00:22:00] soprano. And then you know, all those amazing dresses. , I always wanted to wear beautiful ball gowns and everything else. So naturally, when I first started doing shows, I started doing Sarah Brightman mm-hmm.

and it was from La Meers. Spent a summer by my side, I dreamed a dream. So, you know, I dreamed a dream was one of the very first numbers I ever did. And and that sang to me too, that song, you know. Yeah, it was always, well, you know, being trans, , half of it is heartache when it comes to love and things like that.

And you know I dreamed a dream is very much about. Love lost and, and, you know, love found and love lost and heartache and all those things. Yeah. So that's why I chose Sarah Brightman and, you know, and I've continued to love her all these years through Phantom of the Opera through Turandot. Nessun Dorma.

And they, you know, and she, and so. and, and I guess the fusion of her, just like the [00:23:00] fusion of Vika and Linda, you know, the two worlds. So she's sort of, she's slightly poppy, you know, she's slightly. Broadway. And then she's very much opera as well. And, and I love, I love that about Sarah Brightman. 

Andy Gott: I think she holds a record for maybe in the US topping, she's the only person to have topped both the dance charts and the classical charts.

Oh, really? 

Katherine Wolfgramme: That's camp. What's her dance What? Oh, Conte party. I will follow you. 

Andy Gott: We had a guest on this. Podcast recently who chose Phantom of the Opera soundtrack as their album. Oh. And before that, my memories of Sarah Brightman just seemed to be kind of this glimmer in the nineties of this lady with like alabaster skin and this amazing voice. And then when I was listening to Phantom of the Opera, I would go back and read. About, you know, her relationship with Andrew Lloyd Webber and it all just kind of came back to me and I was like, was Sarah Brightman actually one of my first queer [00:24:00] icons?

Hmm. Cause I just had this memory of this amazing, talented, beautiful dress. She's 

Katherine Wolfgramme: very iconic it very iconic, very dramatic, very dramatic smoke machines and candelabras, isn't it? Oh, falling here and falling there. I thought what? She was fabulous. Yeah, she was fabulous. I wanted to be her.

Andy Gott: Have you ever seen 

Katherine Wolfgramme: her live? No. I'd love to see her live. Mm-hmm. Hopefully when she comes to town. You never know. Your luck in the big city. I might get to meet Sarah Brightman one day. I've had some incredible times, you know back in the late night, he's early. Maybe late nineties. Jean Paul Gaultier. He threw his own cocktail party in Sydney that we were all invited to, and he gave me a bottle of his own perfume.

Mm. See there's surreal things. It happens in Sydney, I suppose, because we are, we are like the main city that people visit from overseas. So we get to meet these incredible people when they visit. 

Andy Gott: It would be crazy if we didn't point out [00:25:00] that you are an ambassador for Sydney World Pride. I'm in February, March, 2023. What an on now, now as if Sydney Mardi Gras isn't iconic enough. It has, the city has the honor. being the host for World Pride? Yes. Yes. And you are an ambassador for it. What does that mean to you?

Katherine Wolfgramme: Well It is an honor and it's basically an acknowledgement from World Pride for the work that I have done within our community. And they have chosen me as one of the representatives of. The festival they basically, there's no handbook for this sort of thing, you know? No job description.

There's no job description. They said, Catherine, just keep doing what you do and you know, and closer. Time, you know, we'll, you'll be representing at events and things like that. And there's a, there's quite a number of us we're called, they're calling us World Pride champions, rainbow Champions.

And there's been, then altogether there will be [00:26:00] 45 selected from around the. And I, I'm one of the first 12 to be announced. They, they had its presentation, a metal medallion presentation. It's at home. It's, it's like, you know, one of those Lord me collar things that you but camp, yeah, camp.

It's, it's camp. And you know, and I, and I'm sort of not sure where to wear it, but I figure I'll wear it when. Called as a representative for world Pride. And you know, the world is, it is, it's kind of nerve-wracking not nerve-wracking. Exciting. It's actually really exciting. That basically, cause we have Mardi Gras every year, so it's just like mardi Gras on steroids and, we are gonna have visitors from all over the world descend upon us. 

Andy Gott: What do you think is the, the role that Pride plays in queer life, that pride festivals around the world play in 2022 and beyond compared to, you know, the Mardi Gras that you would attend in the nineties? Well, 

Katherine Wolfgramme: We've gotta remember that. [00:27:00] You know, Sydney, we live in a bubble here in Sydney.

We've gotta remember that there is a whole country out there. We're one of the largest countries in the world, and it spans, you know, just, way into the deserts, like 3000 kilometers all the way to Perth.

And. Scattered through. There are these desert towns where there will be one gay person or one trans person or one lesbian person, and that person is isolated and feels alone A and is by themselves. Now they see Mardi GRA and they see, well pride, they hear about us, they see us there, and we are their beacon of.

We are there to show them that their life is worth something and that we are waiting. And that goes to, you know, Sydney is also probably as a gay capital, we're probably the gay capital of the South Pacific as well. Like [00:28:00] not just Australia. When it comes to advocacy and rs, if you want something done in this country, you have to do it in Sydney.

And when you do it in Sydney, the rest of the country follows suit. That's why I do it all from here, and it, it's, it's that same way with hope. You know, and, and we, we are showing example, look what I did in Fiji, , you know, I came from Sydney and I went to Fiji and I did that. 

Andy Gott: Catherine Wolfgramme you are queer and thank you very much for sharing your 

Katherine Wolfgramme: tracks. Thank you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure to be here. Time has flown though.

I could sit and chat with you for another three hours.