Carl Austin-Behan, RAF veteran

Carl Austin-Behan served in the British Royal Air Force from 1991 until 1997, when he was discharged for being openly gay.

Lauded with honours for services to his country, including a medal for bravery, nonetheless he was ejected from the RAF – simply for choosing not to hide who he was.

Carl went on to win Mr Gay UK pageants, elections in local government, and the title of Lord Mayor of Manchester (the first to be openly gay).

We discuss music by Gloria Gaynor, Erasure, and Bronski Beat.

Carl currently works as a Community Ambassador for the LGBT Foundation. Read about their work here, and follow Carl online here.

Listen to all previous guest choices in one handy Spotify playlist, Selections from Tracks of Our Queers and follow the pod on Instagram.

Transcript

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Testing testing. How does this sound call Austin? Behen Carlston began. Carl Austin began. testing, testing, testing. hello? Welcome to tracks of our quiz. My name is Andy and each episode I chat to a fascinating queer person about one song, one album, and one artist. They have soundtrack their life. Carl Austin Behen served in the British. Carl Austin. Behen served in the British Royal air force from 1991 until 1997. When he was discharged for being openly gay. Lauded with honors for services to his country, including a metal for bravery. Nonetheless. He was nonetheless, he was ejected from the RAF simply for choosing not to hide who he was. Call took few years to pull. Call took a few years. After he was discharged. Call took a few years to pause before triumphing in the 2001. Mr. Gay, UK pageant. Then heading in then a few years later heading into the world of local government with elections as a Manchester city counselor in 2011 and most wonderfully. The city's first, openly gay Lord Matt in 2016. Call currently works as a community ambassador for the UKs LGBT foundation and advisors. Manchester's current mat on loud. And I. And advisers Manchester's current mat on LGBT issues. This is a fascinating story of a genuine trailblazer. And I can't wait for you to hear his story. This is a fascinating conversation with. This is a fascinating conversation with a genuine trailblazer. And I can't wait for you to hear his story with, of course, his musical selections. Producing this podcast is very much a one queer band and listen to contributions, go a huge way in keeping the light switched on and the show at free. If you are interested in supporting me, you can do so by buying me a coffee through the link in the show notes. But leaving a rating or review is also greatly appreciated and it's free. It's free and it's easy. It's free. It's a free and. And it's free. It's an easy way to help the podcast reach new listeners. And thank you very much in the fence for your support. Over to Carl. Hello Carl. Welcome to Tracks of Our Queers. you very much. It's pleasure to be here. I'd love to know where did you grow up and what was playing at home when you were growing up? So I grew up in Crums, north Manchester. I've got two brothers, David and Paul. we lived in a two bedroom house. So three of us were in one bedroom on bunk beds and a single bed as well. my dad was very much into old style music. Fox Domino was regularly on same as Billy Fury, that, you know, that it, it was, it was quite random. It was, it was the old style Radio two, I suppose it would've been compared to what the Radio two is of today. And yeah, it was very old music and my dad used to have all these tapes and I just remember him constantly cataloging them And, you know, when he passed away in 2001, we had all these tapes and records not knowing what the heck was supposed to do with them. And ne never once was, was it played again. That happened in that sense. My mom wasn't into music at all. I think it just irritated her, She, she'd come in the kitchen and when it was on, it'd be like, she'd just turn it off if he wasn't there. one of my youngest things that I remember and I used to love was Friday Night's Music Night. And that was a radio program on Friday nights on BBC radio too. And it was, it was, it was different. Sometimes it'd be big bands. Sometimes it'd be about a particular artist. I used to listen to it. as a kid from a very early age, because, it was a bit of family time. In the fact that I was in the kitchen with my dad. My dad was baking, me and my dad didn't have a great relationship growing up. he was a lot older and we just argued a lot but when he was doing his baking on a Friday night and this radio program was on, it was, it sort of brought us together. And that's the artwork of music, isn't it? Bringing people together. I love that do you remember when you were starting to find music that you liked that that was something that Carl had figured out for himself? I did. And it was, I loved all the new romantic stuff that was going on. And I felt that if I'd only even a little bit older, I'd have fitted into that category. But it was cheesy music that I like, sort of cheesy pop easy listening to words in them that you could relate to, but you could also make it about you even if it wasn't about you. it's a bit like the pet shop boys with. It's a sin and the fact that you can interpret that song so many ways. About growing up, about the way that you are made to feel by other people around you, making you feel like you are crap. But actually realizing that just because that's what other people see of me or that's what people think, doesn't mean that you should have that that feeling towards yourself. And I think that, when we look at the Pet Shot Boys with, with that particular song it was very much about them sort of expressing the way that they've been growing up through life. when the pet shop boys were coming out, songs like it's a sim were coming out. I dunno what stage of, you know, your identity was up to at that point, but do you remember hearing, something was a little bit different about the pet ship boys, let's say, you know, they were a bit camp flamboyant, the colorful synths. Do you remember hearing them was a little bit different I think you did realize it was something a little bit different with them, especially when you're thinking about what they were singing some of their songs. I think was, was there eight December? About 87? So yeah, so I'd have been sort of 15, 16. And I think that was when, even though I'd known from an early age that I was different and I say different because back then you wouldn't use the word gay and even sort of going up through school and I tried to tell my mom from the age of seven that I felt it was different. So I think it was one of those sort of things where I realized that it was, that this group were for. You know, the gay community and, seeing some of the things that they were singing about and the way that they, the clothes that they wore as well. so in 1986, yeah. we had, you know, the early stages of 82, 83, Sort of HIV and AIDS was coming out. There was a lot of talk about the gay community. And, even though I knew that I probably fitted into that category, with everything going on with HIV and aids, I didn't want to be gay because I didn't wanna die. And that was the way we were made to feel, the tombstones, the fact that we had a chief constable in Greater Manchester telling us we're gonna be in a cesspit of our own making. being gay wasn't a nice place to be back in the, early, mid eighties because of the way that you were made to feel. And then obviously in 88 they brought in section 28 when schools weren't allowed to talk about homosexuality or the fact that people couldn't be the true selves at school. And I think it was all, it was all different things going around at the same time with the way that music was coming out. one of the songs that I have picked sort of puts things into perspective when you listen to some of the words. I think this is quite a natural segue into you know, looking at the story of your life, Carl, you've lived many lives in one. and I'd love to begin with, how did you find yourself in the Royal Air Forces? Okay. So I, from an early age, I want to be a fineman In Manchester you had to be 21 and they weren't recruiting anyway. I left school at the age of 16 with one G C S E in drama. So that wasn't gonna get me too far. I left school at 16 and then I went and did various jobs and then I went over to see my brother in Aria cuz he was in the Air Force. And while I was out there, I was 17 and a half and while I was out there, I realized that they had a fire service. So when I came back to Manchester after being on holiday, I contacted the careers information office, went and saw them, and I spent 18 months trying to go through this process because they weren't recruiting or it was a case of, you know, you had to do your aptitude tests and, and everything. And I've not told anyone that I was going through this process. on the 20th of March, 1991, I got my letter to say that I'd been accepted to join and start on the 2nd of April. I told my mom, and my mom was like, oh, but I don't think you can go in the Air Force. I was like, why? Well, you've told me you're gay and it's illegal to be gay in the Air Force. I went, you've told me it's a phase I'm going through. I wanted to make sure was even though I knew I was gay, I didn't want to be gay. I wanted to get married and I wanted to have children. I didn't want being gay to define me even at that age. at the time, you know, the age of consent was 21. So it was illegal for things that I was getting up to anyway. There wasn't the gay scene as there is now. There wasn't mobile dating, you know, there wasn't mobile phones back then. It was very much, it was very underground with the quite seedy, quite dangerous. So I had to keep all that sort of stuff to myself and, I didn't wanna accept being gay, so I decided that best option and a way of getting away from the fact of possibly catching H I v aids back then was to run away and my running away was to join the rf. And the weird thing was, I mean, from day one, I absolutely loved the Air Force, but I realized that I was living a double life. Because I'd go to do my training, my basic training and then come back to Manchester. I'd get a train, it'd come into about nine o'clock on a Friday night, and then I would just disappear for the next sort of 12 hours without telling anyone where I was, When I look at it now, I realized how much at risk I was putting myself in with some of the places that I ended up. And then I'd just go home the next morning at like 10, 11 o'clock and make out that I just got off the train I got the early morning train to come back to Manchester because that was the only way I could live my life and to hide it. I ended up seeing a girl when I was in the Air Force at the age of 20, she felt pregnant, so we had got engaged on the 21st birthday. A few weeks later she had a miscarriage, so I broke the engagement up because I just felt like I was using her just to hide the fact of who I was. But I ended up doing that for a number of years in the Air Force. Going out with girls just to hide the fact that who I was, and that's all because the fact of how it was supposed to be illegal and the fact that you weren't able to be yourself. That, that you're putting other people into situations that they shouldn't be in in the first place. So you're living your life. In the Air Force and like you say, you are enjoying those aspects of it. The actual, work It's a job, right? it's being in the rf, but it's a job. and I was very lucky in a really strange way. So, 30th of September, 1992, there was an aircraft crash and I was one of the first people on that the, the crash that took place. And I ended. Managing to get the, again, went onto the fuselage. There was still fire going around, there was things ricochet off cuz it was fully armed. And I ended up managing to get the second pilot out of the aircraft cuz the first one managed to eject the aircraft was you know, it was completely burnt out. Because of that and for forgetting the, the, the pilot out, even though he died 11 days later I got awarded with the Humane Society Bronze Award for bravery. And, you know, that was quite a, an award, a a very sort of early start of my career to be given. And that led to the fact that I was sort of within the Air Force. It was seen as a big deal for the fact of what I'd, what I'd achieved with and getting a good show award. And, and then I went to Belize, central America. Then from Belize, I went to Helo. Then from Helo I went to the Ascension Island. And in that I was involved with a lot of the the combined services entertainment. I was doing loads, loads of extra workers, doing loads of different charity work. And I got awarded with the on the Queen's birthday honors list in 1996 with a commander in Chief's commendation. And so, in an early time, within my career, I was Air Force through and through. I loved everything I was doing, but at the same time, knowing that I was gay. And then when I came back from Ascension in 1996, it was the time when I felt, look, I have to be true to myself. So I actually told my mom again, my mom said, don't tell your dad because he'll kick you out. And I thought, well, don't live here anyway. So I'll tell my dad. And you know what, it was weird because it was the first time I realized in a long time that, he gave me a hug, gave me a kiss. I said, look, no one ever told me how to live my life. I'm not gonna tell you how to live yours. But just be careful. And that was all he really said about it. And that sort of threw my mom completely. Cause I think she'd been hiding it from my dad my mom wouldn't accept who I was at an early age because she was worried for me. She would cry constantly for me because she was worried that I'd live a lonely life. I'd be bullied, I'd be beat up. when she knew I wanted to have children when she knew I wanted to get married, but that wasn't gonna happen cuz it couldn't back then. And one of the songs I think I can really relate to a little bit later on and you'll understand why. But. that was the culture in the eighties, early nineties. we didn't have a gay scene until the late nineties. there's still a lot of places in the country or in the world even that, that, you know, they may have a gay night on a Thursday night if there was 31 days in that month and it was the back room and that's what it was, it was seen as, see, it was seen as dirty, you know, no one spoke positively of, of being gay back then. So I can understand why certain people, if they'd never come across the gay A positive representation. absolutely. Cuz they'd never seen that. I also think that the reaction that your mom had and the quotation marks protection that she had for you, for fear of how your dad might react, that's also something I think a lot of people can relate to as well. And I think especially positively, the, the reaction of, of the dad not being quiet as catastrophic as we can imagine. I think that happens more than we assume as well. But the, your time in the r e F did come to an end. Tell us a little bit about that. So I told a few people I was in the Air Force with and they were fine about it. And the reason why I told them was because I was sharing a dorm with some of them when we were working together. So I didn't want them to feel that if it ever did come out, that I'd not been open and honest with them. And I then started seeing a lad in Manchester in January of 97. And I, in the march I got my papers through to get promoted and I was gonna get posted overseas to af sent Belgium. I'd only signed on for 12 years. So now with this, I would've signed on for 22. Knowing that how much I love the Air Force and the fact that, it was everything about me. It was my life. But then this lad. In April, he phoned the Air Force to tell'em that I was gay. And I think it was cuz he thought that it meant that I wouldn't get posted overseas. And so the Air Force pulled me in and asked me, s e c Austin, do you have homosexual tendencies? And I froze. And then they asked me again and I just burst into tears. But what was strange was it was that moment where I just knew that I had to be true to myself. And it was that moment where I, I honestly believe that if I'd have said no, that'd been like, thank you very much. Just someone's made an allegation. We just needed to check it through. they may have done an investigation but it probably would've been fine. within minutes, They were telling me that my services were no longer required. I'm incompatible to service life because I'm a homosexual and that I could go to military prison for six months. And this is 1997. Being told you could go to prison for six months completely through me. it was more a case of actually what we've decided to do is we'll just give you an admin discharge. It'll take six months for that to go through. So I was basically marched off camp. I had about 15 minutes. I couldn't say goodbye to anyone. So within half an hour I'd lost my job, my career, all the friends. where I was living, everything had just gone within that split second. And, I was told I couldn't wear the medals that I'd been awarded. Everything I'd done, everything that I'd built up and managed to achieve, even though in my service record it says exemplary service. And the fact that getting promoted in such a short time meant nothing just because of my sexuality. I joined them six months. I wrote to Tony Blair, his Prime Minister at the time. I wrote to Graham Stringer, my MP in Manchester. I wrote to the M od numerous times and I kept writing these letters and saying, What I've achieved has nothing to do with my sexuality, I got a letter from them to tell me that, they agree that my sexuality had nothing to do with it. However, being a homosexual is incompatible. It is illegal in their eyes. it was down to the government because it's not gone through parliament and there's been no challenge and no one's wanted to change it. So the government sort of followed that through. I think that's the reason why I have no issue with the armed forces, because I don't blame the armed forces for it. I blame the government at the time and subsequent governments that still allowed that to take place considering homosexuality was decriminalized in 1967. Why was it until 2000 that that carried on within the armed forces, that's the government's fault. 2000. I've gotta say I'm a bit embarrassed that I, I feel like I know a fair amount of information about what was going on in America with Don't ask, don't tell, but this is my country. This is our country that we're talking about. And I was shocked when I first read your story about you having to leave the RF in 1997 and to now hear you say that the law was changed just three years later. the anguish that you'd been going through at that time, writing these letters, it was your life, it was your identity. how did it feel in 2000 when things flipped? Not that long after what you've gone through. Was there any bitterness there at all, or? It wasn't bitterness. what had happened was, from that time up until 2000, I was kicked out in 97. I started working for Asda just stacking shelves at night because that was what you could do because I, you know, I'd got no, I'd got no qualifications. But then I also applied to Greater Manchester Fire Service, and I got into the fire service, but I didn't tell 'em I was gay until I'd got my contract. once I got my contract, it was that thing, wait until I've got my contract before I told anyone, or, or sort of made that thing. So I got in the fire service and then I told them, and they, that's response was, we don't have gays in the fire service. And I was like, Well, like, yeah. And it was like, well, I know that they have. And he is like, well, no one's ever joined up openly gay. So we don't want you to tell the recruits, we don't want you to, because it was a residential course. So I lasted about three weeks and then I told the lads, the lads were fine about it. It was the hierarchy that had issues because they were very much a case of like what we're supposed to do now. So then what they did, they then set up a, cause I asked about diversity and equality and, and inclusion. And then they turned around. They then had to set up a team and it was a husband and wife team who happened to know someone who was gay. No one actually knows whether or not they're like that gay person, they just happened to know someone who was gay. Then what they did, they went around the fire stations that I could have been sent to and the different watches to explain to them, this is how you talk to a gay. This is how you act around a gay. And it was, and I know this because I've heard it many times from different people at the time, and they'd basically gone in to try and question the blow for me going in. Whereas I'd been quite happy just going in and dealing with it. I've been in the Air Force, I know about banter and yes, it might not be the right banter. It might, in today's day and age it probably wouldn't be a allowed, however, back then it was, and it was something you just dealt with. And I gave back just as much as what people would give me I'm not offended by any word. You know, even as I say, because I'm a service record, I'm more offended by the word homosexual than I am with queer, faggot, anything like that, that people find derogatory, as long as it's not said in a nasty way, then I'm not offended by it. So, yes, I did the fire service for about 18 months. I just left because I didn't like it. I was going in, I was crying going in there. I joined for all the wrong reasons because I felt I'd let people down. It was nothing to do with the fact that I wanted to do it I'd had this amazing life and I'd done everything I'd done within the Air Force to then go and do this within the finance service it just wasn't what I wanted. So I left and in 99 I ended up setting up my own promotions company and at the very beginning we got a contract with the mainstream news giving out the free metro. And it was as if I had a right at that moment to print money because I had 160 people out every day making an absolute fortune. But then that was sort of 99, early 2000. And when the bang got lifted, I thought, it was very much a case of, well, I'm doing well for myself. I do think that if the Air Force would come to me and ask me would I like to go back in and they would reconcile the last three years and do a bit of a training course. I think I probably would've gone back in. But there was never that opportunity. And then in 2000, I came across competition, Mr. Gay uk. it was a bit like a beauty pageant. And I will be honest, it was very much like that the very first time. And so I won, I ended up winning Mr. Gay Manchester, and then I came second overall for Mr. Gay uk. But then that made me realize that still in 2000, it still wasn't normalized of being. So what I then did in 2001, I went for it again. So I won Mr. Gay Manchester again in 2001. But then that whole six month period, I ended up going to different pride events, talking to different L G B T charities about what it was and about normalization, normalization of being gay. So the reason why I went for it again, in 2001, was cause I wanted to normalize being gay. I wanted people to realize that, you know, yes, I'd been in the Air Force, yes, I'd been a fireman. Yes, I'd been stacking shells. Yes, I'd worked in Thornton's Chocolate Shop, but my sexuality had no effect. And I think it was because of being kicked out the Air Force I joined because I didn't want it to define me. Being kicked out, ending up defining me, and then gave me the five in my belly, the campaign. that was Mr. Gay UK in 2000. That was the turning point. I wanted to fight for the people's rights. to make sure that we weren't being treated like second class citizens. And then That was when my mom accepted who I was, because my brothers were there. My sister-in-laws were there. Around me on, on that night that I won in in Manchester, Where was it? it was at Manchester Pride. the final at Manchester Like outside in the street? outside, on the main stage. Yeah. They announced the winner then, and, that was the moment when my mom sort of came to terms with the fact that actually, yeah, it's okay. And from that day on she was out with me as often as she could be in the village, and she became everybody's mom. it was a complete turning point, you know, she, she was constantly, she'd be at Pride events that I even had wasn't at, do you know what I mean? It was a case that she'd go there and she'd just sort of find herself a little stool and sit there and, and it was, it was weird because the way that she'd managed to, to sort of turn it around, but it was brilliant and I'm glad that she was alive. Just the, the fact that it wasn't gonna have an effect on the life and the fact that as years went on, you know, getting married and having children again, is now normal for us. And actually, just going back to something you said about it being a turning point in, in a great way, I guess it has impacted your life, but in so many positive ways like your life has been. On, different trajectories, which have come from terrible experiences, I think it's a remarkable journey you've been on, and I am obsessed with your attitude and your positivity you're right. history moves very quickly and it's in our nature as human beings that we have short memories and we rely on people to remind us of history The cliches are that, If we forget history we're doing to repeat ourselves. And that gap between your exit from the r e f and then them marching in the Manchester Pride Festival, was that like seven years A lot has happened in the last few decades which is why people like you. Stories are so important. But I haven't asked you one question about music , so we're gonna tie right in. To the track you picked. I'd love to know which track you picked and why. So for the track, it was Gloria Gainer. And the reason why I've chosen this, and it is some people will call it cheesy the way that it's done, and this was in 1983. And actually when I, I didn't realize this at the time, but I thought it had been an old song that must have been sort of redone because the way that it was embraced by the community. But I just remember when I was in the Air Force coming back at weekends and then driving back. In my car in the middle of the night after I sort of had a great weekend somewhere, and being able to be myself, but then driving back to then go back into isolation as it were screaming at the top of my voice. You know, I don't want praise, I don't want pity. I do ban my own drum, something. It's nice and something. It's pretty, and it's the line that says you've gotta see things from a different angle and your life is a sham. So you can shout out I am what I am and that is why it is my anthem. And you have got to live life to the full. There's no excuses why we should be ourselves. And I think the song could resonate for everybody if they're able to be their true, authentic self. that was the moment in April of 1997, when even though I drove out on Camp Gates after having an escort off there crying for about three hours, wondering what I'm supposed to do, where I'm supposed to go to listening to that song, sort of put everything into perspective and now I was able to be. And you mentioned it's cheese, and I just think we've gotta call out that cheese absolutely is not a derogatory term right here because it's a fabulous song. I am what I am. And I remember a time when I'd first heard it maybe I kind of threw it away as a bit of a cheesy, sentimental, you know, seventies, eighties pop song. But you'll bang on with the words of that song and you can take it for what it is on the dance floor. But the words speak the truth I haven't actually seen La Kaja fall, but I'm very familiar with the story of the Birdcage And it's become a bit of like gay lore. And yeah, I think it's really special to imagine you hearing that song at a time of your life when you really needed it. when did you last listen to it? Can you remember, apart from listening to it for this podcast, I have it on regular. it's on my gym. favorites So it's coming in my ears quite often. And the album, which album did you pick and why? So I chose the album based on a particular song, but it's one of them albums that you would listen to all the way through. And the album is The Innocence 1988. From erasure the first two albums that ERA did sort of flopped, This particular one, it did get to number one in 80. And the song that drew me to this album was a little respect. And the reason for that is because there was the line, I'm so in love with you, I'll be forever blue. What religion or reason could drive a man to forsake his lover? And I think that was the first time I'd heard a man forsake his lover in a song that I could resonate to that was being played on top of the pops that was on the radio. And even when you put that on the dance floor, now everybody's up what we're talking 30, 35 years ago. that album is 35 years and there's some strange songs on there. I mean, I love Ship of Fills as well. Then this Phantom Bride was sort of added to it. Heart of Stone and Hello Ground. there's the track when I needed you, when I needed a friend, you know, he wanted to go back to childhood. So I think that's the album that, that I resonate with. And then they also River Deep, mountain High again, done in a complete different version to what we've been used to. I just could talk for hours about erasure and what I love about doing this podcast is seeing who are the recurring artists that come back and back again. erasure has been mentioned quite a few times already in not many episodes, and I just think they are the definition of, in a time when people weren't talking about these things, when hiv aids was all over the news, when, as you've said many times, The, the idea of gay life was CD and Dirty. You had on places like top of the Pops and the radio, someone as so outwardly and Fiercely Camp and flamboyant as Andy Bell. With that incredible voice and those fabulous synths appealed to everyone. you said it went to number one, this album, and it takes more than gay people liking something to get it to number one a few years ago I saw erasure in Manchester, the Manchester Apollo, and I remember being blown away by the diversity in the audience there. And I think a, as the years go by, I respect erasure more and more. I think years ago I was maybe a little bit dismissive of them for being what? Definitely wrongly sore as throwaway, shallow pop. And there's elements of that for sure, but they're much more than that. They go beyond that. And especially the song A little Respect. The words that you called out, what a banga I'd be straight on the dance floor. And it also has this tinge of melancholy to it. there's a sadness that runs through it too, and I think that's something special about it. there isn't. I think, you know, I think that's one things that, especially. Because a lot of the songs were written by Vince Clark and Andy themselves especially Vince he's quite a dark person and that whole sort of, the things that he's done in his past with Yazoo and the work that he'd been doing back then. I think with erasure, I've seen him numerous times. my favorite was the Panta Al tour back in, 92. And it, it was on, I went and watched it, the London Apollo, and it was amazing. You know, they, they played bingo in it at one point, and they, they did the whole, the whole Abba was in there as well, with take a chance even now, when you go, you feel like they're singing to you. Yeah. And I, I've gotta say, you've mentioned the song, but I hadn't actually heard Phantom Bride until listening to this album in Full, and it was my favorite song that I hadn't heard before. So thank you for introducing me to this album because one of my new erasure favorites Phantom Bride. I mean, It's a lovely song. if you think of some of the other songs, like love To Hate You you know, always there's something about it. It's just there's song. There's so many songs that they've done that you can listen to. And the weird thing is, even with the Innocence, they did a remake of it, in 2009 and again in 2016 changed on the music a little bit. But you can listen to it all the time and you don't get bored of it. I believe that with Raja, you don't get bored of the music it can be on in the background, but you'll take from it, especially when I needed you, and it's about taking you back to childhood. Your artist, tell me why you picked this artist. I guess it's the video. Hmm. was the fact that as soon as you heard this track, you sort of froze as a young gay kid trying to come to terms with their sexuality When you listen to the music it takes you into a certain place and makes you think, I don't think that the song does it justice without the video, the video. Tells a story in itself. Now, this particular song, it's five minutes long. There's not that many lyrics realistically. it's repeated, but it's the video that's that, that sells it on this and the opening beats to it. As I say, the mesmerize, you and I think for a lot of young people, they can relate to the song as they see the video. And you're talking about Jimmy Somerville. Brosky beat Jimmy Somerville. small town boy the video of him on a train. It starts off on the train and, and he is sort of running away. And, and that comes because of the fact that he, he realized that he was gay. He had a few friends. He then ended up going to the leisure center, go swimming. Thinks that this lad looks at him. So he looks back at him. He then realizes that when he goes in the changing room he read the message wrong. ended up being chased, getting gay bashed, and then the police taking him home. It's the first time his parents realized or told about his sexuality that dad doesn't wanna know. The mom doesn't understand that he then gets kicked out. I think that the way it looks is more case if he gets kicked outta the house, rather than just leaving on his own accord just packs up his little bag to run away. His dad doesn't wanna shake his hand and then just walks away. And you could see that back then that was the way that the mother, the wife, would go with whatever the father said. And, Dismiss their child just for their sexuality. It's an upsetting song, an upsetting video, but unfortunately, I think there's so many people that can relate to it. And maybe not so much now, but I think people of a certain age. Anyone who is sort of 50 ish who, that at that time, in 88, we had section 28 coming in, for people who were, were, were, were out and about then it was very much ca fact that gays weren't, weren't accepted. As I say, the government was saying that we didn't have a right to be here. that we shouldn't be accepted for who we are. And I think that song fits in very well with the whole section 28, the H I V AIDS epidemic. The fact that Having to come to terms with who you are and just throw it away because you couldn't be. I think you are spot on with the generation of people who can relate very closely to the words and the message in the video, but I do think that the song has gone on to be a sort of, Like talisman or something that generations after of young queer people can touch on in for example, so many of us actually do leave small towns and escape to the big smoke because we have no one like ourselves in the town that we, that we grow up in. We suddenly arrive into the city where there's so many people like us, and that's when you find your tribe. And for me, I do wanna bring this up with your connection to Manchester, because for me, Manchester was that. Was that. And you know, I, I grew up in a wonderful family with lots of love, but I don't have a very pleasant relationship with the town that I'm from. And I truly say this and absolutely no disrespect to my family. I feel like this would upset them to hear this, but it's not about them. I feel like my life really started day one. When age 18 I moved to Manchester. And that's partly why I'll always have such a special relationship with that city, when I think about songs like Small Town Boy, luckily I wasn't going through the abuse that you see in that video. Which, like you say, does tie very specifically into what was in the air with HIV and AIDS in section 28. But I only really started to know myself when I'd left that small town behind and landed in, Manchester. So I was glad that you picked that song. Or the artist selfishly, actually, for, for reasons that I could relate to. So thank you for picking it. And I think, you bang on about the fact that, you know, I know that Canal Street has changed over the years, when Queer as Folk came to our screens in 99 that Russell T. Davis wrote and it did, it sort of, it, it really brought to the forefront gay life and the fact that, you know, it made it, drew a lot of people to Manchester's gay scene people came here for university because of the gay scene and people just never left. And there was so many people that came here for Manchester's gay community, for the scene, for everything that's gone on and the fact that feeling it acceptance and for feeling that they were in a safer space than some small towns. There's still a lot we need to do, especially within our communities, when we look at people who are trans and non-binary, the things that they're going through the fact that we need to support people and support our siblings within our own community. Davis did a massive thing back in 99 which brought in the mainstream about for gay people. And I think, we just need to be there to support everyone. And, it shouldn't matter what gender, what sexuality, what race, what creed, what color. everyone is a human being and everyone should just be treated with respect and other people's lives have no impact on my life. So why make it hard? Couldn't say it better myself. This has been such a lovely chat. Thank you very much, Carl. I just wanna wrap up by asking you what is your definition of a queer icon? Because I find that people have different definitions and I'd love to hear what a queer icon is to you. So, queer Icon to me, I've mentioned his name before, but I will mention it again. It's Russell T. Davis. Because he, with his writing, with the way that he's managed to write various episodes of different programs, whether that's from Dr. Who to Torchwood, Queer as Folk, Bob and Rose, he's managed to bring gayness and queerness into mainstream where people are acceptance of who we are. And it takes a genius to be able to do that. he has managed to single-handedly bring the gay community together with allies when it comes to brilliant tv, film programs. So for me, Russell T. Davis is. Absolutely. And final question, is there a queer charity initiative, social media account that you'd like to give a shout out to? I'd like to give a shout out to the L G B T Foundation. They are Manchester based, but they're a national charity. they cover all sorts of different aspects of support services making sure that people can be signed, posted to different organizations within, within the organization they're doing via BT foundation. Fabulous. Carl, you are queer and thank you very much for your tracks. Thank you. You can follow Carl online at links in this episode, show notes, including the LGBT foundation, an incredible organization based in Manchester, but servicing the whole of the UK. Truck's about quiz is presented and produced by me. Andy got entirely on unseated, Gadigal and the Garriga. Kroger Aboriginal land. You can email me your thoughts, recommendations or okay. Rumblings too. Trucks of our queers@gmail.com. You can email me your thoughts, recommendations or gay ramblings to tracks of our queers@gmail.com. See you next time.