Chris Jones on Living Mindfully and the Power of Narrative

When resilience meets creativity, extraordinary tales emerge, and none is quite as compelling as Chris Jones's journey from tech entrepreneur to master storyteller and philanthropist. He steps into our podcast with a treasure trove of experiences, sharing how his ventures weathered the storm of economic downturns and how he later turned his formidable focus towards the craft of writing. Chris's commitment shines through as he discusses his philanthropic efforts, revealing a deep belief in the potential of young minds, which he nurtures through scholarships for aspiring writers and entrepreneurs in the UK.

As someone who has always been intrigued by the art of living in the moment, I was particularly captivated by our conversation on mindfulness. Chris illuminates how embedding mindfulness in daily activities—from martial arts to creative writing—can transform them into spiritual practices. His insights on 'the zone', that elusive state where focus is king, are a testament to the power of presence in enhancing performance and decision-making across life's arenas. He also reflects on how embracing a meditative mindset can facilitate smoother transitions in life, enabling one to navigate challenges with grace and informed choice.

In the realm of storytelling, Chris paints a vivid picture of the strategies authors employ, from the meticulous planning of 'plotters' to the spontaneous creativity of 'panzers'. He introduces the hybrid concept of a 'plancer'—a blend he embodies as he crafts narratives that captivate and thrill. Drawing inspiration from literary giants, he underscores the vitality of action in storytelling and how creativity intertwines with neuroplasticity to foster both analytical and inventive thinking. As he teases the release of his upcoming book, Chris leaves us pondering the transformative power of writing and the enduring impact of sharing one's unique voice with the world.

You can find Chris Jones' website here.
His email is:  headcase@chriskjones.com

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Note that Don Thompson is now available as a coach or mentor on an individual basis. To find out more, please go to his website www.nextpixprods.com, and use the 'contact' form to request additional information.

Transcript

Don Thompson: 0:08

Okay, great, we're here today on our artfully mindful podcast with a really excellent author that I know personally and artist and but he's not, you know, just an author. Even though he's an excellent author, he's also a martial artist and an entrepreneur, and he splits his time between New York and Barbados, which is where he's interviewing with us now. He's, he's. I really admire this guy. I think he's a great inspiration to he's actually, we're going to get into it, but he's. He's working with some younger entrepreneurs and and doing some great work out there. So, without further ado, I'm going to go ahead and and ask Chris Jones, Christopher Jones, to introduce himself and just to talk a little bit about himself and his background and and perhaps we can ease into the subject of meditation and how he began to meditate and what is his background is relative to meditation. So, Chris, why don't you just just dive in and start start telling us about your, your story?

Chris Jones: 1:21

Thanks so much, Don. It's great to see you, great to be on your podcast. I really love what you're doing. Listen to a bunch of them really, really great stuff and covering so many different areas of of how to integrate meditation in mindfulness into your daily life.

Chris Jones: 1:38

I'm a lifelong entrepreneur. I started my first company at 23 years old doing accounting in the Princeton area, moved to New York and started working with tech companies. It was sort of like a CFO for tech companies, did real well in the early dot com years and then took some of the money that I made in that, invested into a mobile gaming company and right before 9 11 and right was we're supposed to really blow up and and get. We had contracts ready to be signed. 9 11 happened and all those contracts never got pushed through. I lost everything I had and had to rebuild from scratch and did that.

Chris Jones: 2:18

Built a consulting company again, got sold it and then built another company in construction equipment, which I had no idea what it was Like. I've always worked in tech and had to learn that business. And then, 10 years, we started it in 2009. I had two partners. We built it up to 11 locations, 120 employees, and then sold it and I was the CFO of that company and we sold it in June 2019. And my last day as CFO of that company was January 31, 2020. Wow, so right before the pandemic.

Chris Jones: 2:55

But my goal was always yeah, my goal was always to write. Though as much as I enjoyed accounting and business, I always wanted to write and, as my my sophomore writing teacher said, Chris, you're really talented, you should pursue your writing. I said look, I grew up poor and I don't want to be a poor starving artist, so I'm going to go make some money and then I'll write.

Don Thompson: 3:15

That's a long strategy.

Chris Jones: 3:17

It took me a whole lot longer right Then, but I really started taking my writing seriously around 2016. And I wrote a play about two Marines in the PTSD and then started on my book Head Case, which was actually started out as a screenplay, as a TV pilot, and did real well. But as we went into pandemic, you know, nobody was shopping anything and I asked my rep I'm like, should I just turn this into a novel? And she said yeah, and I wrote it down here in Barbados at the desk that I'm sitting at and the chair that I'm in, and it was fantastic. It was a really great experience and learned a lot. I had two editors and even that wasn't enough, so it was a really interesting experience. I still get involved with startups, I still invest in early stage companies, and that's something I like, as well as my philanthropy, and the philanthropy part of my life is something that's really I've done a lot more with in the last six, seven months and honestly, don, it's one of the my most favorite parts of my life.

Chris Jones: 4:26

I met my scholarship winners and the things I heard from them about, you know, not being able to finish university and I went to university on exchange in Newcastle, a pontine in Northumbria and in Northern England and but the thing that really got me this time around when I was visiting and lecturing was students saying you were the first person that believed in me in their writing. I have scholarships for entrepreneurship and creative writing and to hear someone say that you know I'm the first person believing them, I understand that resonates with me Because everyone told me you're too young, you can't do this. I all got. All messages I ever got was what you can't do, except from from our teacher. You know that was the first time I heard anything positive. But you know, for me I think you know I just have an attitude problem and the best way to get me to do something is tell me I can't do it. I'm like, okay, now I'll show you.

Don Thompson: 5:23

Yeah yeah, I mean I found it with the mentoring that I've been doing Some of the best. You know, what you can really offer a young person is just encouragement, you know, just to let them know that somebody is there that can believe in them and believes that they have something of a future. You know that they can offer something to whatever their chosen field happens to be. In my case, when I'm mentoring kids at UCLA or students at UCLA, it's going to be theater or playwriting or screenwriting or filmmaking or whatever. But I really I really liked the fact that your focus for your scholarship and I would be really curious about that. When you say scholarship, are you literally helping them to fund their education?

Chris Jones: 6:13

Okay, and that's going to be. Yeah, okay, it's a whole lot cheaper in the UK than it is here, but I do have nine scholarships there to mean that even, but even then it's summer master's students, summer undergrad, but a lot of there's several and creative right there's nine right now and there's several and creative writing, several entrepreneurship and several for the master's program.

Don Thompson: 6:37

Now, do you work through a specific university or how does that? Yeah? Okay, northumbria, where I went, okay so you work with your university Gotcha.

Chris Jones: 6:46

Yeah, it's always good to work with your alma mater.

Don Thompson: 6:48

I think that's really we're really the way to go. It's very, it's very fulfilling. They love to reengage with you, of course, and then it's very meaningful. I totally get it.

Chris Jones: 7:01

Yeah, you mentioned something about when you were talking with your you know your mentees and talking with students. I had a really during my lecture, which was really cool, because the teachers told me this is the fullest we've seen the classroom all year and there were a bunch of kids from other who weren't even in that class who came to hear my lecture, so that was very flattering. But one of the students asked me you know, do you fake it until you make it? And I said no, you don't. You. Be who you are. So for any of your students who are listening, don't fake anything. Be who you are. It's okay to be a white belt and if you are a white belt, don't go training at the black belts. Be a white belt, be who you are. Accept who you are right now.

Chris Jones: 7:48

While you're striving to be better, while you're striving to gain more skills, while you're striving to gain more knowledge, don't fake anything. Just be who you are, because you're probably an incredibly wonderful person, and embrace who you are right now and I think that will make you feel happier, while also not trying to be something that you're not. You can have aspiration, like I aspire to be a better writer, and the only way for me to aspire, to reach that aspiration is every day to work on my craft. And do I fail sometimes? Yes, all the time. I have two editors who will tell me so. Did I fail in business? Yes, several times, but then eventually got to that. Did I fail in sports? All the time, lots of times. And it's still when you get back up and you go after it and be OK with where you are.

Don Thompson: 8:45

Yeah, it's a level of authenticity. I think that you're indicating which is important and certainly in my life I've had similar experiences ups and downs, failures, successes, all over the map. I do think that, in terms of working with a mentee, again to be encouraging and I think, as you say, to inspire them to find their authentic voice. Well, what is it that they have to offer? What is it that's coming from their authenticity? So I resonate with that. I think it's a great thing, and I just said a little bit into mindfulness.

Don Thompson: 9:24

I was just curious about when people have different interpretations of mindfulness. One thing I was really interested in was when I was thinking about head case, which I would highly recommend everybody. Go out and buy your copy. I'm not. It's a good book, it's a really wonderful read.

Don Thompson: 9:45

But the element of trauma and when you look at the mindfulness movement today, when I was studying from my mindfulness meditation certification, it was psychologists and they were dealing with mindfulness as it applies to trauma. But also, I have to be honest, I mean when we were studying with our teacher and you know there's different perspectives you can have on mindfulness, I feel, and a psychologist's perspective is one perspective, but you can also use it as a way to empower yourself, to inspire yourself, to then take it into your creative life, your sports, whatever activity you have, whatever goal you have. So I was just wondering if you could speak to your perspective on mindfulness and how you've? You know, maybe you've seen I mean, I've seen a little bit of both. I guess I've seen its helpfulness in terms of dealing with trauma, but also it's just the empowering aspect of meditation which I think is very compelling, and the clarity of mind that it can bring, you know, to allow you to be more creative. So again, please, just if you can just comment on that.

Chris Jones: 10:59

Well, I'll comment on both. Although I'm not a psychologist, my main character is so.

Chris Jones: 11:04

I've done a lot of research and writing on that, and especially cognitive behavioral therapy and I've been in therapy too. I think, from the psychology standpoint, where mindfulness comes, if I boil it down to one thing, it's the place in between stimulus and response. So you are triggered by something, what's your response? And mindfulness occurs right there, when you're aware. And now you're choosing your response rather than just reacting. Yes, so that's where, if you really like the psychology standpoint, it's the space between stimulus and response where mindfulness occurs.

Chris Jones: 11:44

Now, from the more Buddhist side, I would say my mindfulness practice is turning everything I do into a spiritual practice and turning everything I do into something that I'm going to learn, gain energy from that. No mundane action needs to be taken without having a level of concentration and understanding. Whether I'm making my bed in the morning, doing my fitness I mean in judo, which is my sport I mean you will do repetitions 10, hundreds of times, and each time you better be aware, you better be focused, you better be present. Are you going to get hurt or are you going to hurt your partner? So, and then in business, it's the same thing, it's really being present in every deal that you're working on.

Chris Jones: 12:35

I did accounting, so it's still like, if you're not present, you're not being mindful, you will make a mistake, you will transpose an entry, you will put in the wrong number, your math will be wrong. So I always found that as a game. I played it like a game, like can I keep my concentration? How can I do that? How can I make sure at the end of the day you know you've been mindful all day and when, at the end of your day, you're not completely exhausted, if you got something left in the tank at the end of the day and you're feeling good? You know you did mindfulness In creative writing.

Chris Jones: 13:16

I know that I'm being mindful when I'm feeling the same things. So this is a little bit different, because now I'm in the same emotional state that my characters are in. So I'm happy, I'm crying, I'm feeling this emotional impact, that the same thing that my characters are going through, and I can feel what they're feeling. So for that, to me, is mindful writing is when I am in the story too, and this story is being revealed and told to me and my characters talk to me and I'll ask them questions.

Don Thompson: 13:49

So that's a very interesting comment. So when I think of that, I mean I mean I do reflect back on sports, for example, let's say, you hear about athletes talking about getting into the zone and I think that in a sense what you're describing at least what I'm hearing correctly, if I'm wrong is sort of getting into the zone with writing. Really.

Chris Jones: 14:13

It's a simple kind of exercise.

Chris Jones: 14:15

I'm glad you brought that up. I've had my most profound experiences, unfortunately not in the cushion, but really on the mat, where as soon as I step on the mat I'm trying to transform. I become a little bit of a different person, and there's been many times where the world just goes away. I have no constant, I don't hear the fans, I don't hear Sometimes I don't even hear my coaches. I just really am so focused because somebody's trying to throw me and pin me to the ground or choke me out. So I am so very present that there's nothing else that matters other than my opponent.

Chris Jones: 14:57

And that's an amazing feeling and I can understand why people in professional sports and people in the military, why they keep going back, because your senses are all heightened and people wonder well, why are you going back? Like you feel completely alive, even though there's danger and there's danger in sports too. There's always that possibility. But the fact that, because there is the element of danger, competition or a task that you're so focused on, that really might mean life and death, you have no other choice but to be present and you force yourself into that zone, or it just comes and it goes. You go into that zone, so that's a really unique and I love that experience.

Don Thompson: 15:43

Yeah, I definitely had that experience myself with writing. I mean, in terms of getting into the zone, it really becomes so immersive. And I find that there's a parallel between my meditative practice and my writing, where, if I'm meditating well, I can have similar kinds of experience when you go into a. You could say it doesn't always happen, of course, yeah, good and bad days, like everything, but when I have a good meditation at least that's my perspective on it is I literally lose yourself, just like you can lose yourself in writing. And another thing that struck me when you were describing your situation after 9-11 and then just having to pick yourself back up which I had to do as well, because we were there too and actually we moved a little bit before 9-11, but we were definitely part of the dot-com issue, you might say, so I caught up in that and that was a really painful situation.

Don Thompson: 16:47

But what struck me about when you're talking about your story in terms of getting back into the swing of things, is sort of a fluidity. You sort of were willing to take on this whole new business of construction. I mean you weren't really familiar with it. I mean you could say, I guess that accounting practices are going to be transferable between different businesses. But yet at the same time, you're dealing with a different thing here. You're dealing with a totally different environment.

Don Thompson: 17:17

So I thought to myself, as you were describing, that that was a really kind of a fluid move. You sort of like go with. It's like water, you just flow with the movement of life, not to get too new-agey about it, but still I believe that there's a certain doubt to the whole process that meditation taps you into and that, whether it's a subconscious or a conscious thing, you end up making decisions that the flow of life is taking you in a certain positive direction or can, if you allow it to. So I thought that was you know, really, really, to me it was a great thing and you're sort of demonstrating the success of that in your own life, I mean just by what you have and what you've accomplished.

Chris Jones: 18:10

You know there were two points to that. The one if it wasn't for one of our mutual friends, a fellow student. It was after 9-11. Now I'm feeling all sorts of sorry for herself because I think there's nothing worse than being poor, making money and then losing it all. And then it just really beat me up. I thought I was cursed. I had a lot of negativity around me and I was talking to one of our friends and he said don't worry about it, chris, you're a survivor. I said what? Because you're a survivor? I said God damn it, I am, I'm a survivor. And that turnaround moment, someone just telling me you got this and saying, yeah, I do, I'm going to get this. So I made a plan that in 90 days from that phone call I was going to have a new contract for and in 89 days I got hired to help restructure the accounting department for the 90-second streetwide, which is a big nonprofit. And 89 days and I got it and they saved my butt and I loved working there. It was a great contract, wonderful, wonderful people. It's a great organization and I was happy to work there every day and help them with their accounting processes. And then, moving on to the next company.

Chris Jones: 19:33

One of the kids also asked the German like what type of market studies do I do? And I don't. I work with people and I choose the people who I want to work with. That's more important to me than any industry and that goes in anything that I do. It's all about people. So I don't really much like you can't write to market.

Chris Jones: 19:58

I don't say, well, that market's hot, let me go work in that. I don't do that. I say who are the people? And even when I make investments, I'm not really investing in the idea, because that idea is going to change a million times. You're going to pivot. You're going to pivot, you're going to move, it's going to you're going to get information from the marketplace. But the people I want really really good people, people who I respect, people who I know are going to work hard, people who are really going to treat my money as if it was their own and really go out and do something that they want to do something great. So but picking that right that you have to have sort of a level of meditation and mindfulness of the people that you're choosing the you know where you're going in.

Chris Jones: 20:43

So, moving to that different industry, yes, it was a little bit like the big joke in our company. Now I'm mechanically declined. I can change a light bulb when that's about it. So we got all this equipment. So the joke was you know, we got $50 million in equipment and the CFO can't turn anything on. I can't, don't know, don't care. I know how to finance the equipment, I know how to get things done, I know how to get money into the business and that was my job.

Don Thompson: 21:09

But yeah, I won three.

Chris Jones: 21:10

CFO of the year awards. You know, at that company I went from being a no, nobody knew who I was, I wasn't in the industry to being, you know, one of the most more well-known CFOs for our independent area. So you can take on anything and when you have the practice of meditation and mindfulness, it does give you that confidence. It does give you that because you're able to dig deep into who you are and who you're being, and I didn't try to fake that. I knew the industry. I ask questions all the time. I think people are. When you get to a certain level, they're afraid to ask questions. I don't always. That's the white belt that you should embrace. That's the attitude of going into any situation ask questions. You don't have to know everything you know, just ask, get information, learn, develop. But I always ask questions a million times.

Don Thompson: 22:05

Yeah, yeah, no, that's a really good point, you know. To get back to when you're talking about stimulus response, which I think is a crucial or critical aspect of mindfulness, and I think there's a Victor Frankel quote about the stimulus and response, that kind of keys into mindfulness. But I think I may have actually used that quote somewhere in the podcast at some point early on. But the thing is, I think that that decision point between how you react is so important because and I think it reflects in what you've done, I certainly try to adhere to it is that if you go down a certain path of reacting in a certain way, it can really drain you. It takes a lot of energy. It takes I'm not saying I never get pissed off, I'm not saying that I don't get angry, or that once in a while, because it may be appropriate actually in some context, and certainly in a competitive context, you need to bring a sort of aggressive energy in a way into the situation. I would think, certainly when I'm writing, I have a competitive mindset to try to make have a level of excellence, I guess, in whatever it is, I'm trying to do so in terms of the energy level, though I find that with mindfulness and I think that I think what I found. I think that what you seem to be indicating is that if you respond in one way, it's going to be a lot less energy expenditure than if you go another way and, as an end result, at the end of the day, you're still standing, you still have some level of energy and the next day you can then take on another task and you can move forward. So, because I've certainly again getting back to failure, if you have a failure or an issue, you have to be willing to get ready to pick yourself back up, and I think that mindfulness and meditation allows you to renew yourself like that. That's been.

Don Thompson: 24:17

I think that that's when I look at somebody like you, that's what I see. I mean, I see somebody that's able to renew themselves. You're just able to constantly go back into your mind or spirit, or whatever you want to call it, and bring out that creative flow. And of course, I'm not hopefully myself as a writer I'm able to do the same thing. I mean I have to because I have to go to the next project and try to get that done. So anyway, just to and just going through the questions here a little bit. When you talk to your students, are you actually mentoring them in meditation, or is that part of the equation? I don't always do that.

Chris Jones: 25:04

It's not really appropriate. Yeah, I did teach meditation for a little bit and that was interesting, but I don't really teach it that much. If people ask me about it or they ask me about it, I'm happy to show them. It's very interesting because when we were first kind of meditating in those early 90s it was still kind of an odd thing. I could mention it and people are like, oh, that's interesting. But now it's so mainstream, you can bring it up. And I do say it's part of my daily practice.

Chris Jones: 25:35

Every morning I get up and I meditate and then the rest of the day I really try to stay focused and keep mindful about what I'm doing, whether it's anything in my life. I break my life up into four quadrants my wealth and my career, my health and fitness, my spiritual development and personal development, and then my friends, family and relationship. So I look at mindfulness in each of those four quadrants of my life and how am I? How am I doing in each one? And when I realized that in one of them I may not be doing very well, I thought, okay, let me look at that, what's going on, and do a self-assessment. So say, if my health wasn't doing well, I gained too much weight or wasn't training hard, or even now like I'm rehabbing an injury. I had meniscus surgery in November and so now that's a main focus of mine. Now, how can I make sure that every day I'm reminding myself to do my physical therapy to well down here? It's great, I have the best gym in the world and the ocean right in front of me. I can go out and do my kickboard and the salt water and the energy the ocean is definitely healing and finding those things like look at your life in the various areas and say, all right, where am I doing well and where am I not doing well, where needs my attention? So then even you can guide your meditation practice and say I'm really having a hard time with one of my family members.

Chris Jones: 27:11

My brother really upset me the other day. He triggered me and I'm still pissed off about it. Oh, let's sit in meditation and focus on that. Like, what is it? Go deeper, what is that? Why did I get triggered that way? What was that trigger? And work your way back Like, okay, was it the words he said? Was it his tone? Was it the body language? What was the trigger that made you get upset and using your meditation for that. And now you've worked backwards, understood it. So now the next time, that's where mindfulness comes in right. So use meditation to help you really understand, because I think through meditation you can get a deep understanding of our wounds, of our trauma, of our goal, of the things that we do really, really well and where our shadows are, the things that we kind of hide in, and using meditation to really look at that and focus on it.

Chris Jones: 28:03

And then the practice of mindfulness, of knowing like, hey, I'm still upset from yesterday. I wonder where that's gonna spill over into my life. So one of the if for people who live in New York, I'm a sponsor of the Rubin Museum, which is Buddhist art, and I run, I'm helping contribute to a program and sponsoring a program called their C program SBE social, ethical and emotional and kids are coming through that and we're using Buddhist concepts and things like mandalas and just for them to understand their emotions and how, when they do have an experience, how that relates if they take that into their school. So say they were mad, their brother upset them at home or broke one of their toys. Now they're angry when they go to school, how that affects the other students that they might be short tempered, that they might take something out, and they were really aware and understood that. I was so amazed at the students. It was such a great experience for me to be able to see that and know like this. I wanna contribute more now Because I'm seeing like these kids come in and go through that and if we can do that at the childhood letter and train children to say, hey, this is gonna happen, let's understand it, let's stop for a second. And that's another thing.

Chris Jones: 29:29

Meditation, right, meditation requires you to just stop. Maybe you can stop your mind. Right, I can't. Monkey mind happens, but you're stopping your body because you just gotta sit there. But and that stoppage of your body, if anything, is when people say, oh, I can't meditate, yes, you can, we'll just sit there for 20 minutes, that's it.

Chris Jones: 29:49

That still counts, right, even if your mind's in a million places, for that 20 minutes, you still sat still. You still sat still and you still had a chance to engage your mind and understand where your mind was, even if it was a monkey mind. It's still a way of making sure that you're looking at your mind, even if it is a monkey mind. So don't beat yourself up for having the monkey mind, praise yourself for saying, ah, I noticed, that thought went there and that thought went over on the other side and that thought went on the other side of the planet. But now you're watching those thoughts and like, okay, as soon as now we're back to stimulus and response. All right, whatever stimulated now, all right, and now the response is okay. Don't slap yourself in it, like, okay, bring yourself back, be gentle.

Don Thompson: 30:38

Be gentle, be kind, bring the kindness, the loving kindness, the compassion you bring to yourself, which can. Then that has a whole different energy profile than bringing a lot of anger to yourself or whatever negativity you're gonna be triggered toward. And again, I'm not saying I'm perfect at that, but I certainly strive towards it and I do believe, when I'm practicing better, that it definitely again impacts my energy profile, my ability to get along with Diana, whatever. Just my ability to accomplish tasks in a timely fashion, which is another aspect of it is the ability to do things really quicker. Do things not necessarily too quickly you still, as a matter of fact, you don't wanna do things too quickly, because that has a whole other set of issues.

Don Thompson: 31:38

But in terms of, I just found so many multiple different benefits from meditation, which I have to periodically. I just reflect back on our our colleague, who we initially worked with I think you did too and he was truly a great mentor in terms of imprinting us or allowing us to see the benefits of that and really taking us to mental, helping us achieve that mental state. So I am very grateful for that. So, as I know, I think a lot of us are So- Well, that's important too, even gratefulness, keeping an attitude of gratitude.

Chris Jones: 32:24

So even when this happened, so yes, it was really difficult. The company I went in it wasn't fun at all. It was 10 years of hell, to be honest, and there were days where I was absolutely miserable. I hated going to work each day. The only thing that got me there was my team, because I loved my team, and I said this is stupid. I'm an owner of this company. How can I be miserable? I have to be a good leader. So I said I need to develop gratitude, and every day, on my 40 minute ride from Westchester to the Bronx, I just kept giving myself affirmations of all the things in my life that I was thankful for and get grateful. And I did that. That's it. No music, nothing, just that. I did that every day for two weeks and after two weeks I was liking my job again. But what changed? Nothing changed. I changed. My circumstances didn't change. It was still long, hard hours with difficult people in a difficult environment, constantly resource constrained. What I changed? The way I thought about it.

Don Thompson: 33:31

Absolutely. It's how you. What you bring to it is the attitude you bring to any endeavor, and any endeavor can really be negative if you bring negativity to it. That's just the way it is. But I try to do the same thing. I mean, I try to be maintaining a sense of gratitude and the more I can do that, the more I can bring that energy to just being the fact that here I am. I have the time, the energy, the enthusiasm and the proclivity to want to sit down and create art or to do a podcast, or to meditate, or to go out to dinner with Diana or whatever it happens to be. I just, you know it's a great thing.

Don Thompson: 34:14

And of course, with them we live in the United States, which is in itself a bonus. Even though a lot of people complain about the US, it's still to those of us that have done a little travel we know that it's a hell of a lot better than any place else, right, 100%? The Rubin Museum just to key off of that a little bit which I have, I've met the manager, the managing director there. I actually met Donald Rubin at one point way back when, but when they were first getting started in New York, I think it was. Oh, birddop Goodman, was that the old store there? I don't know what the store was, it was some store, the bar that they could.

Chris Jones: 34:56

Yeah, Barney, Barney, that's the old store.

Don Thompson: 34:58

Yeah, so, and it's just such a beautiful space. I just love the attention to detail and the energy that they bring to that whole thing. That whole effort there is so amazing. I would do a plug for the Rubin If anybody's in New York, you should really go see the Rubin Museum if you're interested in Buddhism or meditation or just art, because it's so incredibly contemplative and beautiful and brings a sense of peace just being there. So just to move a little bit into a different area here, what do you see being on the horizon for you? Now? You'd mentioned you're working on your second book. I assume this is going to be a sequel to. I should know.

Chris Jones: 35:45

Yeah it's a series. Yeah, okay.

Don Thompson: 35:48

Yeah. So what is the you? Of course you don't want to disclose the storyline, necessarily, but how has that been for you? Have you found yourself thinking you're going to take it in one direction and then ultimately, maybe segueing into a little bit of a path with it?

Chris Jones: 36:10

Yeah, I did so. For most writers there are kind of two main categories there's plotters and there's panzers. Plotters are people who outline your entire novel in detail. Panzers they just sit down at the computer and just start going. And I'm in the middle.

Chris Jones: 36:29

I'm a plancer, I plan, but I allow for the moment and this is definitely due to our training I have a plan, I know what I want to do, but I allow for spontaneity to enter in. I allow for me to feel my way through what's going on with the characters and the story, to make changes and I changed my opening and it was such a better opening, like where I had it, where my day antagonist is in prison and the first scene is him in prison. You know where someone comes running in another cellmate comes in to give him a phone and he sees his. He just got there and he sees his. Whoever his cellmate is is unconscious and he's like what happened? He goes.

Chris Jones: 37:16

Well, he asked me one too many questions. How many questions did he ask? One, and that's the type. It just tells a lot about who Fergus is and in that short group and I have to. You know, that's really just a lot of reading of other thrillers and starting off with action. I wasn't starting off with action and I had to. I need to start this off with a pace, you know, and then keep that, like the first book I think has a very fast pace. I mean it takes place in one week of his life.

Don Thompson: 37:47

The pacing is good. And now yeah, and.

Chris Jones: 37:49

I think that that was something I really worked hard on and the whole, like Lee Childs and who else. The master class from Dan Brown was really great If you have a chance.

Chris Jones: 38:04

like he's a people criticize his writing and I don't. I like his writing, I think. I mean what he's done is amazing. I would love to do you know 10% of what he's done, but he's a really great teacher and his master class is really really good and he gives excellent instruction. Not every writer can teach how to write and I totally recommend watching that one because he's really good. I really enjoyed it.

Chris Jones: 38:35

And he's talks about starting off right into action. If you're in the suspense genre, the thriller genre, you've got to start off right away. Grab that reader in the first few pages or first few sentences, you know, and creating that. So that's interesting too. So it's such a different part of my life where you know we're living in spreadsheets and analytical verses, the creative, where I sit down and have a general idea where I'm going to go, but you can't force it and I find I can muscle a spreadsheet but you can't muscle a manuscript. It's just you have to really allow the muse to come and take you or call the energy of creativity, to just sit in it and wait and be present because it's going to come and not like it's. So very different than what I did in my prior field. I've had to rewire my brain.

Don Thompson: 39:31

Yeah, I was thinking right, left and left brain sort of orientation, and then really what you're doing is you're developing. You've had the good fortune to be able to really develop both sides of your brain really, which a lot of people don't, either try to do or for whatever reason, they don't end up at that place, they just emphasize one aspect of their psyche really.

Chris Jones: 39:55

That's a very important word you just used. They emphasize that, so it's called neuroplasticity the connections that you have between your left side and the right side of your brain. And anyone can be either, but they just have a preference. They have a, like you said, they emphasize that because they're somehow getting a more dopamine release from being logical versus being creative, versus analytical versus artistic. That's just how they're getting their dopamine and that fuels what they're doing. So everyone has that same ability. It's what. Do you work on it or not? And I've always enjoyed both sides of that.

Chris Jones: 40:39

I love the creativity. I love world building. I go to a museum. If I go to the Whitney, I look at a picture and I just have a whole story. So I went to Photographica, which was right at the street to me. It's a really amazing museum. It's next to a church. I think it was a former church and was all this photography of dogs and I put in dialogue what the dog was saying, just because I'm silly and that was really fun for me. So, again, it's like how you look and how you work within art and how you want to deal with it. I love the world building. I love character. I love understanding the nuances of that. And that was Neil Gaiman the one who said interview your characters or just stop and listen to them. And it's so interesting because I know it's coming from my brain, but when I stopped and I learned things about them that I didn't know where. They tell me something. Is it them, Is it my brain?

Chris Jones: 41:38

No, it's very, very fascinating how it all works and there were definitely moments where I had to like I need to go outside and see a real human being, because I've been having 15 people in their conversations in my head. I need to get back into a reality. That's not this world I created. It's a fascinating process. It really is. If you like to write stories or you like to write poetry or anything, I really encourage you. If you're listening to just write, just sit down in journal and lose yourself in that form of just creation. It doesn't have to be good, absolutely, absolutely so important.

Don Thompson: 42:28

So, yeah, I think that it's very interesting to talk with you and I really have enjoyed our conversation. I was curious about now you've got your book coming up and you have it. It's just going to kind of go. It's going to be published when you're ready, I guess.

Chris Jones: 42:51

basically, yeah, the first one's there. I mean, anyone can go out, you can go to my website it's chriskjonescom and you can then order it from your favorite bookstore or Amazon. There's an audio book too. The audio was great and I didn't read it because there were 60 different speaking parts and all these different accents. And there's a great actor who did that, jp Oakland, who is an award-winning voiceover actor. So the audio book I'm very proud of and I'll be working on the second one and some other hints coming out soon too. Yeah, so it's been an interesting change in professions. I don't think too many people go from CFO to artist, but I had a very good inspiration. So I grew up in Rutherford, new Jersey. And do you know who Dr William Carlos Williams is the poet, do you know?

Don Thompson: 43:49

him. Oh yeah, very close, william, sure absolutely.

Chris Jones: 43:52

So Dr Williams, do you know who else? He was my mom's pediatrician.

Don Thompson: 44:00

No kidding.

Chris Jones: 44:02

So he was a doctor. He was a medical doctor, a pediatrician and one of the leading pediatricians of his time. He had so many different advanced practices and he's the first recognized modern American poet too. And so I grew up with him and knowing who he was, as he was like a big person in Rutherford, knowing like, okay, well, he was a doctor and a poet, I could be an entrepreneur and a writer. So that was my kind of inspiration and realized, okay, it is possible to do very different things and succeed at it. So don't let anyone put limitations on you. And maybe that was the one thing we learned most from our teacher that there are no limits except for the ones that we put on ourselves.

Don Thompson: 44:56

The thought was from your mind to mine, because I was relating that totally to our teacher and how he was just really emphasized to me and I think to you as well. Obviously, the human potential is so important to work towards your potential and not cut yourself short, but yet not to get hung up in it in terms of thinking that it's sort of you allow it to be, rather than thinking that the accomplishment is going to have. You may get the crowds, you may get the accolades, you may get the standing ovation or whatever, but maybe you don't. But the mindfulness aspect of it allows you to accept sort of both sides of the equation and the motivation behind what you do is a little bit different and I'm not sure exactly how to express it in words.

Chris Jones: 45:52

Sometimes it's wordless really, but I think the process is the reward, and I'm saying that because that's a very hard thing for me. I've always been so results oriented in life and learning how to be process oriented and writing has been my big teacher for that. Because, again, you can't muscle a manuscript I have and it's horrible. You just look at the end of the day and like wow, I wrote crap today. It's garbage. I'm going to have to rewrite this tomorrow. But when you sit in process and say you know what? I got a couple of really really good pages today. It wasn't five or 10 what I wanted, but I got three really really good pages and now I feel good about that.

Chris Jones: 46:38

I'm going to take that into tomorrow and that's going to be my momentum because in my kept track of it and I kept word counts and this and that you could do that. If that's a motivator for you, I'm a pretty disciplined person. So like I even kept the time sheet on my last one because the time sheet soothed my left side of my brain. But like I need a result and like, okay, so it took me 714 and a half hours to write the first head case because I kept the time sheet. I kept the time sheet.

Don Thompson: 47:16

I've never heard that. That is impressive, Chris. So we had a document on the book.

Chris Jones: 47:23

It's document. I also wanted to know too. I wanted to know, I was curious like all right, how long will this take, and like so when I have to do it again, I know what's realistic to plan right and how long. And it took almost a year at that, but there were times when I didn't have it because it was with the editor. But yeah, it was interesting in this year is really about getting into the process again because I did get out of it. Book marketing is really really hard, Not something I excel at, Something that I'm working on and learning how to do.

Don Thompson: 48:01

The website looks great, though the website looks really really nice Talking about the project the way you everything from the cover art to the website, I mean it's very impeccably put together after so.

Chris Jones: 48:14

I redid the cover. So I got feedback on the cover that it wasn't you know that I was giving away too much and I redid it and hired a designer. I got impatient is really what it was. We all got book fatigue and I coming into you know everything was done in December and then going in and the book production and marketing and just getting the like the book production side took a lot to cover the pages the inside, like yeah, it takes some work and every time there was a change.

Chris Jones: 48:49

The good thing about Amazon, which I'll definitely recommend people use for self publishing, is if I made a change, I had to go to a change in the paperback. Then I do change in the hardcover, do a change in the ebook and go on to like the free. I have seven free chapters on my website that you can download for free. I have to go change that. So it was like every change was really painful. The editing process is going to be a whole lot different and I'll have a. I didn't have a proofreader. I had an editor, developmental ready editor. I had a line editor, but we all did proofreading and we all missed things.

Chris Jones: 49:31

My PJ, my audio guy he caught a bunch of things because he's got to read it and he goes Chris, this doesn't sound right. I'm like, oh my God, you're right, that's wrong. He actually caught a continuity error and I was like whoa.

Don Thompson: 49:47

You're right I always have a kid. Read aloud is good.

Chris Jones: 49:52

Yeah, I totally recommend that. Read. Read your stuff. If you're a writer, read it out loud. If you're writing a screenplay, absolutely read it out loud and see how it sounds. And if you don't like doing that, you can. If you use Microsoft Word, there's a feature that it'll read it. It's not a great voice, but yeah, all those tricks.

Don Thompson: 50:13

Yeah, absolutely so. Okay, chris, I think that you know it's been wonderful speaking to you and I'm going to list, of course, on the podcast I'll list the website, the link to head case, in case people want to go over and buy the book. I do recommend it. It's a great book, thank you, and you know I recommend that you follow Chris because he's got more coming. You know more. You know more pending.

Chris Jones: 50:44

So it's good stuff. I'll share my email head case at chriscajonescom. If any of your listeners have any questions whether it's about on the creative side, entrepreneurship, meditation, mindfulness head case at chriscajonescom please feel free to send me an email. You know this is really important. I appreciate your time and everything you're trying to build and I want to help support you, so if your listeners have questions, I'm happy to answer them.

Don Thompson: 51:14

That's perfect, okay, well, I think we can. We can wrap it up.

Chris Jones: 51:18

Maybe we'll do round two, who knows We'll see you on the next one, but for right now, I think this is a good start and again, thanks so much, chris.

Don Thompson: 51:27

Christopher K Jones, chris Jones, and the book is head case. And there you will have the info below the podcast, and this is Don Thompson artfully mindful podcast. I appreciate you listening and we look forward to the next one and until then, talk to you soon, bye, bye.