Interview with Steve Kaplan, Mindfulness Coach and Teacher

Unlock the profound impact of mindfulness in the corporate sphere with Steve Kaplan, a seasoned mindfulness practitioner, teacher, and coach who guides us through his transformation from truth seeker to dedicated Buddhist. His journey, rich with experiences from Transcendental Meditation to Tibetan Buddhism under mentor John Churchill, illustrates the potent antidote mindfulness provides against the Western epidemic of relentless busyness. Steve's narrative promises to reveal how these practices can sharpen focus and alleviate the suffering embedded in our daily grind.

Venturing into the realm of mindful leadership, we converse about how presence and acceptance can revolutionize workplace cultures. Drawing on the wisdom of figures like John Kabat-Zinn and the integration of Eastern philosophies into Western psychological frameworks, we address the evolution of corporate environments through mindful practices. Discover how leaders can embody mindfulness to foster healthier corporate spaces, enhance decision-making, and cultivate empathy and innovation, all leading to a more competitive and inclusive business landscape.

Lastly, the spotlight is on heart-centered leadership, a revolutionary model that champions authenticity in the business world. We discuss the five dimensions of the heart that leaders can engage with to forge deeper connections and transform organizational culture into one where personal growth and collective support thrive. The episode also examines the role of courage and psychological safety in fostering the tender aspects of the heart, revealing how these elements can drive progress within organizations and society at large. Join us for this rich exploration of how integrating personal values into business practices can create a more mindful and effective society.

Steve's website is: www.kaplancoaching.net

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:27

Hi, welcome to today's artfully mindful podcast. I'm really happy to have here to interview, to speak with us, a very, very interesting and knowledgeable person named Steve Kaplan, who is a mindfulness practitioner and coach, and he works with people in both a individual context but also a business context to work with them towards their mindfulness. What I'm going to do is I'm going to step through some questions with Steve. First off, welcome, steve.

Speaker 2: 1:05

Hi Don Pleasure to be here.

Speaker 1: 1:07

Yes, pleasure to have you here, and so what I'd like to do is just to start off, if you wouldn't mind, just giving us a little bit about your background and how did you come to practice mindfulness?

Speaker 2: 1:20

Yeah, sure. So I guess you would call me a kind of a lifelong seeker. I've always been curious in kind of the sense of the way things are and the nature of reality and I think for me mostly what it means to be human and how to be the best human being that I can be. I know it sounds corny, but it's actually kind of true. So, yeah, I've been around the block a couple of times. When I was in college I did TM and I read Gergif and Herman Hess and Alan Watts and that kind of stuff, and then I actually got into Scientology when I was in my 20s and out.

Speaker 2: 2:06

I lived in London for a long time. In 2006, I stumbled onto some folks who turned out to be Buddhists and I started to investigate Buddhism and, as a result of my earlier investigations of all kinds of stuff, I was comfortable in kicking the tires and in London there's a lot of tires to kick and so I found that an organization happened to be a Tibetan Buddhist organization in one of the four lineages and I planted myself there and the kind of rest is history. When I got back to the States in 2008, 2009, I found another group and then I found a teacher in Boston excuse me, in 2014,. Who's at the top of the pyramid in terms of Tibetan Buddhist teachers? American psychologist a guy named Dan Brown.

Speaker 1: 3:04

Dan Brown, of course.

Speaker 2: 3:04

Viewers may know or want to know. He passed a couple of years ago. He had a protege, a guy named John Churchill, and John Churchill has been my teacher for the last 10 years. John's in Boulder has an organization called KarunaMandalaorg.

Speaker 1: 3:25

Yeah, I find it very interesting that, because I had a similar journey in terms of being interested in meditation and considering myself, I guess, a seeker, like you said, and it's interesting how a lot of people do go through this arc of going through a very similar, similar books or a similar path, and I find it interesting that a lot of people do end up with studying with either Tibetans themselves or people that are influenced by Tibetan Buddhism, which is interesting.

Speaker 1: 3:59

I think it's a tribute to the Tibetan philosophy that it tends to attract people, ultimately because of its power, its sort of explanatory power and its efficacy, I guess you might say so I find that very interesting.

Speaker 1: 4:16

So I have had a similar kind of journey and it has taken me to, ultimately, to study with Lamas and Rinpoches, but also going back to some Vedic teachers as well and going back to the roots of the Vedas and Hinduism, which predates, of course, buddhism. But anyway, here we are. You know we're trying to make our way in the modern world as Westerners, and so you know people are going to come to us all the time and they're going to say well, you know, what can you do for me and what is it that you can teach me, and one of the things that I think that I found and I do believe this is the question I'm leading up to is you know, there's obstacles to people's growth Oftentimes, if not always. So I was just wondering what you found in teaching to be an obstacle to people's growth or what you might find you might see as patterns out there in your teaching. If you might talk about that a little bit.

Speaker 2: 5:25

Yeah, sure. So, as you will know and your listeners might, in Buddhism there's four noble troops, and I'll just say at the start that if you ask me what religion I consider myself to be, I would say I'm Buddhist.

Speaker 1: 5:51

Yes.

Speaker 2: 5:52

And I've been Buddhist for since 2006 and 2007. So I took Buddhist refuge and I took the Buddhist Bodhisattva vows and so I'm serious about it. But I mean, you could for me and maybe this is relevant, maybe it's not, I don't know you could call it anything you wanted. Why have I planted the flag here? Because I found so much usefulness in it and it's transformed my life. So it's a creek, it's a river, it's an ocean that you know I keep wanting to drink from because I keep getting more from it and, of course, the more I've gotten myself, the more I want to turn around and give it to others, and it's that simple. So, you know, I tell people I'm like the guy who went to Weight Watchers and lost 50 pounds and, by the way, I haven't, obviously been to Weight Watchers. But you know, it's as simple as that. So I mean to answer your question. Finally, you know we, we, we are.

Speaker 2: 7:05

So the Buddhist element is, you know, the first noble truth is there is suffering in the world. So you know, suffering connotes all kinds of stuff to all kinds of people. It's not necessarily, you know, people starving in refugee camps. You know we're, we're, we're suffering in the West, in our comfy environments, we're suffering from a plague of busyness and of being distracted and of not being able to focus and concentrate, and most people I think especially new to mindfulness and meditation would respond to the notion of, yeah, you don't have to experience, you don't have to go through life experiencing it in the way that you are. There are some simple things you can do to begin to reduce it and over time, you may get some significant benefits, like.

Speaker 2: 8:08

The other side of distracted and busyness is being able to focus and concentrate for as long as you like on whatever subject you're working on. Yeah, undistracted. You know waiting for the waiting, waiting for the thoughts to come bar barring in, and and you look around and you know it's a pretty quiet place, it's pretty still, but the waters are calm and, wow, I can actually focus all of my effort and attention on, on what I'm wanting to do, whatever it may be, whether it's a work thing or a play thing, and and you know, just to be in conversation, but to be fully engaged and attuned to the other person and the experience that you're having in the moment.

Speaker 1: 8:59

And that's exactly what I've tried to cover in bits and pieces in the podcast is this tremendous ability to tell how meditation will increase your ability to focus and concentrate and that has tremendous impact on any task at hand. And whether or not you're taking care of your kid, or you're writing a book, or you're teaching a class or whatever it happens to be, just the ability to have a beginning and middle and an end and sort of you might say close on the task is, I think, an important thing, and sometimes people don't learn that skill. It's really I've seen it. It's kind of a tragic thing actually if people don't feel like they can complete the things that they start off to do. So I do believe that anybody that's having that issue, you know this meditation is a great way to bolster your ability to concentrate and complete tasks, and it's not all about efficiency, of course, but it has that impact. Yeah, I mean it can be usually useful.

Speaker 2: 10:05

There's many different, as you know, styles of meditating, which has its own purpose, but nothing like a little peace and quiet.

Speaker 1: 10:19

Absolutely Peace and quiet is in bed. You know, I think this whole efficiency thing or the benefits of mindfulness, from that perspective, I think it's a nice segue into this whole notion of bringing mindfulness into businesses, which I'm interested in that same area, and I think we've both been interested in helping businesses to become, within the realities of their particular situation, to become more mindful. And I was just curious you know just some of your thoughts about the benefits of mindfulness within a business context. I mean, what have you seen out there?

Speaker 2: 11:04

Yeah, so I mean huge, huge subject, huge opportunity.

Speaker 1: 11:08

Yes.

Speaker 2: 11:12

I mean, there's no doubt in my mind that it will happen. It's already happening. For me there is, and I don't want to get too geeky about it. But for me there's a difference because a lot of companies, again, as you will know, may offer a mindfulness even on their own intranets, via apps or videos, to employees as part of an employee assistance program.

Speaker 1: 11:41

Right.

Speaker 2: 11:42

And that can have huge reach and huge value.

Speaker 2: 11:45

For me, I'm more interested in helping to create mindful companies, if you will, because I think, while it's great to give individuals and companies, wherever they may be placed, an opportunity to get the benefits from mindfulness, there's a whole multiplier effect when you get a group of people in working on a common set of goals and purposes, operating in a way that's more mindful and stripping the jargon out.

Speaker 2: 12:19

I would say. Being more mindful, in a sense, is being more human, it's being more respectful, if you will, yes, and it's being more patient and, yes, it's actually slowing things down, it's creating a culture in which, well, I mean, if I can give my own website a plug, so it's Kaplan with a K Kaplancoachingnet. But because I consider this, I suppose, my mission or my vision, I've got a definition of mindfulness. This is kind of my manifesto, I would say, and I'll be as brief as I can. So mindfulness is the ability to be present in the moment, purposely and without judgment, with an attitude of curiosity, openness and acceptance, and that's a combination that comes from John Kabat-Zinn and from the American Psychology Association.

Speaker 1: 13:22

Yeah, that's beautiful.

Speaker 2: 13:24

Yeah, and you can strip the jargon out of that and saying mindfulness is simply the ability to be present in the moment, open to your experience.

Speaker 1: 13:34

Yeah, I mean I can't tell you.

Speaker 1: 13:35

I mean having been in the corporate world I mean not so much now in this stage of my life but in the past and having seen the downside of certain kinds of behaviors in retrospect to see quite clearly that there could have been some benefits to some mindfulness practice Back in the day when I first started working for corporations. I mean, if you mentioned the word meditation, they might take in the back room and read you the riot act. You know it's just like it wasn't really something to be considered. But today, as we know, mindfulness is becoming quite popularized and secularized, which is a great thing. Obviously, john Kabat-Zinn is a big part of that, and stress reduction and looking at mindfulness from a secular perspective, which I think is important, because I think the Buddhism is really in a lot of ways as a science. You know there's aspects of it that can be ritualistic and that's a whole discussion in the middle itself, but the philosophical part of it has to me been very. To me it's very scientific and I think that a lot of people feel that way.

Speaker 2: 14:54

Absolutely. And I would say you know, part of the beauty of the approach that my teacher in Boulder, who's a PhD in psychology, is taking is the notion of taking the content, if you will, from the Eastern religion, specifically Tibetan Buddhism, and folding it into Western psychology, for the simple reason that we have different minds in the West than they do in the East and Buddhism is, you know, 2,500 years old. So we and Buddhism again, as you know, has evolved over the years into different forms and the current form that's happening in the West is more of an amalgamation of the essence of the Buddhist philosophy and practices mapped on to Western psychology. So kind of back to FYI and I know you know this, but your listeners and viewers want to. I mean, I worked for IBM for five years and I spent 30 years coaching all sorts of folks in corporations and entrepreneurs and lots of time in big accounting firms and law firms. So I know the environment and I know how people are showing up and back to the very beginning, I know the suffering that they're experiencing and the bottom line is it simply doesn't have to be that way and we're not necessarily talking about, you know, wholesale change programs. That might be nice, but I suppose I would probably want to adopt more of a top-down approach, as in to help to develop more mindful leaders and to help them share the benefits of their own direct experience which is the best-selling approach of all with their folks. And so you ask me what the point of bringing it into companies is, and I would say this You'd love it when you quote yourself right, but I did create this.

Speaker 2: 17:28

Mindful leaders create a more open and safe environment that fosters deeper, richer conversations with better teamwork and decision-making, and for me, in this day and age, you know, leaders have to be authentic 100% of the time. You can't fake it, and my shortest answer to any of this is nothing for me, in my experience, is a more direct and useful tool than learning how to meditate, because when you meditate again, as you know, you are forced to look at your own, the images in your own mind good, bad and indifferent and when that occurs, one usually not too shortly after that comes to appreciate the fact that everybody else walking around is dealing with the same type of stuff. You pick it. So wait a second. Maybe there's a different approach to this and maybe I can have a little more compassion for their experience and they might for me and cross-pollinate. So mindful leaders, so mindful companies are more creative, innovative and inclusive. They listen more and have more empathy. They're kinder and more compassionate and experience less stress.

Speaker 1: 19:02

Yes, and I think that this is a great way to lead into the next area that I wanted to talk about, which was ultimately all of this stuff seems to me and I think you'll agree, and this is part of your mission is companies become more competitive. By doing this, I mean they become better. By becoming better, they become more competitive. I mean, obviously, if you have a better product and you have happier people in a better service, they're going to be more competitive. So I just wondering if you could I mean competition. You kind of think well, it might seem to be at odds a little bit with mindfulness, but yet I can see that they can be complementary, and I was wondering if you could just speak a little bit to that, to this notion of competition and how that sort of fits in.

Speaker 2: 19:51

Yeah, so just for the record, we haven't rehearsed this right.

Speaker 1: 19:55

Absolutely not. This is what that sounds like. We have never rehearsed this.

Speaker 2: 19:59

You're making my points for me. Thank you very much, no problem. So look the last two points on my little chart is mindfulness helps to produce better outcomes in more engaged employees. So the difference and it's not that hard. So the difference is look, too many people for too long have felt that they need to check their values at the front door when they walk through into their companies. It's a lot better than it's ever been, but it's not where it needs to be or could be. And, of course, the only lever, or the greatest lever, that companies have to influence employees' behavior yes, it can be benefits, but typically the core of it is money.

Speaker 1: 21:00

Right.

Speaker 2: 21:01

So companies are about making money, not all companies, for-profit companies more than non-for-profit. But what's my point? My point is if you had employees who were truly engaged in the mission of your company, don't you think that you'd get better outcomes? Of course you would. Don't you think that, because of their sheer willingness to invest themselves in the activity, that you'd get better outcomes and you'd keep good employees and you'd get rid of those ones who aren't so good, because the good ones can't suffer the bad ones? I mean, I know it's apple pie and motherhood, but oh my god, let's take the low-hanging fruit and we can do this. It's not that difficult.

Speaker 1: 21:57

Yeah, I mean the low-hanging fruit aspect of it is, I think, true, and I find it to be an amazing thing Sometimes, hopefully, ideally, when presented this information that slowly, over time, people begin to comprend that there can be some benefits. I'm not talking about a religious conversion either, as we know. I mean again getting back to the secular aspect of this. It all boils down to common sense, really, and so I think that's all.

Speaker 1: 22:35

That's what I've certainly come to view the way you're laying it out, and I know we talked a little bit about we touched a little bit on mindful leadership, and I have to say that I really do sincerely agree with you that this top-down influence of a mindful leader can be very important. I mean, leadership is so important because if you lead effectively and you lead by example or you lead by your own experience, your own sense of mindfulness will have its influence, of course. So I was wondering, can you just I mean, maybe you spoke about it all you wanted to, but is there anything else you can elaborate on being a mindful leader or any specific offerings you have? What are you doing out there? I mean, what do you think we can do to have more mindful leadership?

Speaker 2: 23:31

Yeah, so thanks for the question, don. That's a great question and it's near and dear to my heart, which is the point, actually, and that is that, and I, just as another reminder, I've been an executive coach for a long time. I've worked with a lot of leaders, I've used a lot of the various psychological instruments that are available to help leaders understand their personalities and their strengths and weaknesses and all that stuff. But there is an overriding focus in all of this activity that's happening here and not here. And if you think about the leaders that you know and respect past, present and future where is the sentiment about them coming from? It's coming from here, yes, yeah, they are able to reach us by capturing our hearts and minds, and same thing. But our leadership is remarkably devoid of the element of heart.

Speaker 2: 24:45

And again, unrehearsed but apropos, right on time, my teacher in Boulder has developed an approach. It is in the process of developing an approach that speaks to heart-centered leadership and speaks about five dimensions of the heart, which I was certainly unaware of before I was exposed to this, but has had huge resonance with folks that it's been shared with, and I'll walk you through what they are very quickly. Okay, yeah, so there's five Down, up, forward, back, sides, down. And of course we can't do it now, but the invitation in experiencing this is not to think about it but to feel into your heart space as you are being introduced to these concepts, so that you get the sense that this is not some intellectual mumbo jumbo, it's actually something that's real and available and immediately accessible.

Speaker 2: 25:56

So the depth of the heart has to do with compassion, the compassion we have for our own experience and the experience of others, empathy, compassion, depth. And if you think about people that you know who have demonstrated great compassion, you can talk Mother Teresa, you can talk Mother Teresa, you can talk Nelson Mandela, you can talk the Pope, you can talk Jesus and you can talk Uncle Fred, who happened to be a terrific guy. You know, we don't have to have people on pedestals, human beings that we may come in contact with. So the downward element of the heart is compassion. The backward element of the heart is peace and calm. If you feel into the back part of your heart, it's quiet. Back there it's peaceful. The side elements, the width of the heart as you can see, I'm kind of demonstrating the width of the heart has to do with holding your experience and holding an experience that you are faced with.

Speaker 2: 27:20

How much can you hold? Yeah, and that's right.

Speaker 2: 27:27

And, of course, each of our hearts are calibrated differently. The most, one of the most curious things that I experienced when I first became aware of this was that, you know, my heart was certainly configured in a way in which it had been stuck for a long time, because that's just the way I experienced life. So there's two more. So down, depth, back, peace, wide, holding experience, up and forward. Now, for me, these are the two best, the two most fun. But up, if you feel up from your heart, it's pulling you up. What pulls us up? Inspiration and aspiration, yeah, our best self, our greatest idealism for our self in the world, yeah, uplifting, that's what we want from our leaders. Right, and the last one forward.

Speaker 2: 28:37

Moving forward into the world, into life, requires courage. So the forward part of the heart, if you feel your into your heart and feel yourself moving forward. There's often some trepidation that is experienced there because you have to move from where you are. Am I ready to do that? Can I do that? What would it take for me to move forward? And when we get these two together the hopes and dreams I have for myself in the world and my ability to move forward you got something. You got some juice going, so let last you know. Last point that's an exploration, that's an invitation to any of us, especially leaders, to start incorporating into our experience of life and to bring into the world and sharing with others. And what would it be like if you were in a company where other people were being more mindful and operating more from their heart space?

Speaker 1: 29:46

Yeah, it's almost ironic because the you know, sometimes some of us with an altruistic bent, I guess you might say think about what we're doing to create the. You might call it in quotes, enlightened society, or more enlightened society, or more mindful society, or whatever you want to call it. But oftentimes, you know, since we spend so much time at work in business is such a big part of our lives, it might seem a little counterintuitive, but I think it can be true that well, maybe business is a great vehicle to bring that to fruition, or bring more of that into the world. And you know why, as you mentioned before, had this split personality. You drop your values at the company door. Why not bring them in? Why not incorporate them, integrate them into your work? It can increase your effectiveness as a company and as an individual, and I just love it.

Speaker 1: 30:43

I think it's all great and I love this process that you just laid out. I think it's great the idea of courage and moving forward, and oftentimes we see the people, with compassion, have this power. You know, they have this power to lead and they have this power to move things forward, which they're not afraid. You know that. You know, I mean there's, of course, common sense. You don't want to be jumping off a cliff unnecessarily, but at the same time a little bit of discrimination, you know, balanced with compassion, can be quite effective, I would think.

Speaker 2: 31:24

I think, Absolutely Well, so you're probably familiar with the notion of psychological safety.

Speaker 1: 31:32

Yes.

Speaker 2: 31:33

Which came out of a Google study of what their employees wanted and was the most powerful tool or vehicle in encouraging genuine teamwork. But I guess the point here is that it takes psychological safety to be able to harvest especially the most tender elements of the heart, which have to do, which can be any of them at any point in time, but I think for lots of folks, the idealism that's inherent in just being human. I don't think idealism is limited to a monarchy. I think idealism is factory installed. It's just that it gets squashed and discouraged.

Speaker 2: 32:32

And cultures, company cultures, family cultures, family systems are things that are created, that have certain rules, implicit or explicit, of basically how things get done and how people relate to one another. And so I think one may walk through those doors on day one and feel full of the joys of life and wanting to invest fully in the experience of working in a company with other individuals, and then one becomes acclimated to the culture and survival is important, and so you start to learn how to maneuver and maybe, in a good sense, you take a chance on an occasion and offer a piece of that idealism that you brought in with you into the mix, only to have it slapped down or discouraged, or people to roll their eyes because, well, we couldn't do that. I mean, that would just be like, too. You know polyanidish and you know you're done.

Speaker 1: 33:45

Yeah, it's a given and take and I understand what you're saying. I mean I've tried. I know that in my own life that it's been a given and take. You might say two steps forward and are three steps forward and two steps back, whatever you want to put it. But that dance, I think, is worth taking and I think ultimately, slowly and incrementally, progress happens, and I've seen it happen. I think things in many ways are better than they were years ago. But I have to say that there is gonna be a reaction. I mean, I think that some of the reaction we're seeing in our society today is that we're actually closer to what you might call sea change or, you know, these things are actually having an effect. You know so and I understand that. I mean there's forces in society that you might say conservative in the broadest sense, that they wanna keep things as they are, and I think that in our work we're trying to move things forward in a positive way that maybe instinctively or on some level it's threatening to people, I don't know.

Speaker 2: 35:00

But Not, maybe, not, maybe it is. We're, of course, I would argue and hope, on a relentless push to reach the tipping point.

Speaker 1: 35:12

Right.

Speaker 2: 35:14

And there on a relentless push to prevent that from happening.

Speaker 1: 35:18

To stop it.

Speaker 2: 35:21

Such is, you know, human nature and life on planet Earth.

Speaker 1: 35:27

I don't know why some of us got the job. I mean, you know somewhere we signed up for it, I guess. So anyway, I think I've really, you know I admire what you do I think it seems to me that, based on everything I've heard and you know I like you, of course, personally, but it's just, it's great to meet people such as yourself that are trying to help and be of assistance on a lot of different levels in society, business, individual and so on and so forth leadership. So if people would like to reach out to you to work with you, how would they do that? What's the best way to reach out to you?

Speaker 2: 36:14

Probably via email.

Speaker 1: 36:15

Okay.

Speaker 2: 36:16

Steve, the number four coach, at gmailcom.

Speaker 1: 36:22

So if they go on the website, which we will list at the bottom of the description in the podcast, of course we'll put the website, but they can go to the website in the contact form, of course. And how does your client relationships typically evolve? I mean, do you mind talking about that a little bit? I mean, I mean, how do things typically, what do you find in terms of the evolution of a? What do you think of the evolution of the? Maybe it's the individual, it's so different for each one.

Speaker 2: 36:58

Well, I think that I mean. It's simple and this is on the website. It all starts with the conversation.

Speaker 1: 37:07

Right, exactly.

Speaker 2: 37:10

So show up, spend as little or as much time as it may take it's usually an hour or so and we'll talk about whatever your experience is, and I'm also setting about to create a mastermind program for leaders entrepreneurs, that incorporates a meditation track.

Speaker 1: 37:41

Okay.

Speaker 2: 37:41

So that, unlike your typical mastermind, in which people will get together on a regular basis, typically small numbers, six or eight. I don't agree with some companies out there I won't digress too far who have 15, 16 people in a room and consider that effective. Maybe it is my experiences. I'd rather go to a dinner party with six or eight people than 16 or 18 people. Interesting, yeah, so that's a separate thing. And, of course, going back to the beginning, I'd make the case that starting a regular, if not daily, meditation practice is the most powerful route to self-development that an individual can undertake. And if we map that on to an experience with a group of other people for at least six months ideally 12 who are committed to supporting one another's personal growth, you have a powerful vehicle for producing some really solid results.

Speaker 1: 38:58

Yeah, I think it goes back almost to what we were talking about earlier in terms of having specific goals and following through with them and meeting them, and I think to have a cohort that has a particular timeframe is a great way to do that, I agree. So you have a cohort that has a beginning and an end of 12 months, six months, three months, whatever it happens to be, but you commit to it, you show up and you work on yourself and it can be an incredible benefit. I think having that commitment is really incredibly valuable and incredibly important. I certainly had that. I know that in my own life. You have to have some level of commitment.

Speaker 2: 39:43

Having a safe space where you can be yourself, in which you are surrounded by people who are in a similar space and place in their lives, in which there's an invitation to talk about whatever it is that is going on with you, whether it's business or personal. And for me, arguably almost as important or more important than anything else is to go out on that personal limb of being vulnerable and of sharing. Your own experience of not only sharing but witnessing in the first instance is huge, because once an individual occupies that space and becomes familiar with it and comfortable with it, one never shrinks back from it. And two, once a group is comfortable in sharing that type of quality experience together, they don't go back from that either.

Speaker 1: 41:06

Yeah, you did what you wanted to go.

Speaker 2: 41:11

Yeah, which is why these things need to be for at least six months and ideally 12, because it takes two or three months for the group to get comfortable and to try it out, and yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 41:30

Well, it's interesting again. Maybe the word I would use is a dance between willpower and being open and all the things you talked about being vulnerable, being open and giving yourself some time, being not so hard on oneself and allowing oneself the space to have that experience and trust a little bit yeah, Process from those of us that have gone through it and seen benefit and can say, well, you know, it sort of works out if you stick with it for a little while.

Speaker 2: 41:59

Yeah, and you and I are of a certain age and we grew up or came through certainly corporate America, if you will, and I lived in the UK for a long time. But two things one, you know, leaders aren't born, they're made. And two, to the point I was just making, leadership is not a lot of, not about a lot of macho bullshit.

Speaker 1: 42:23

Right.

Speaker 2: 42:24

And if you look at the number of women leaders specifically in the world in which I've spent a lot of time professional services firms they have done great.

Speaker 1: 42:36

Absolutely.

Speaker 2: 42:37

So leadership is about being human, not about being some big swinging. What's it?

Speaker 1: 42:45

Yeah, that's a great thing. I would say that's a theme of this interview is bringing it back down to the human, because, I might put it, to humanize the world. You know that that's a sort of a mission statement, I guess, for some of us, and seems like your work is right there. I think it's fantastic.

Speaker 2: 43:06

Well, you know, kind of on a personal basis, I got tired of all of that stuff pre COVID and I didn't know what I was going to do, but I knew I wasn't going to continue. I couldn't continue doing that Because I had more juice than I was allowed to utilize and I had more of a genuine at that time, just a kind of feeling and intuition you know one or two notes on the piano not 88, that I wanted to move in this direction, and so all I did was kind of start to give myself permission, open the speed a little bit, that yeah, okay, steve, you can move in the direction that you feel yourself being pulled, and three or four years later I have a whole different life.

Speaker 2: 44:13

Yeah, that's great One that I never thought possible, one that I still have a massive amount of work to kind of fully realize and make come true and make profitable. But damn it if I don't have my heart engaged and that's the most important thing for me.

Speaker 1: 44:44

Well, that's. I think that's a great way to sort of wrap it up. I so much appreciate you coming on and interviewing with me for this podcast, steve. I really appreciate it Totally my pleasure, Don.

Speaker 2: 44:58

I'm very grateful for the opportunity.

Speaker 1: 45:00

Yeah, and we'll all like I'll get back to you with the recording and the scheduled date and all that stuff and then we'll go from there and get it out there and get it out to our audience and I'm sure that they're really going to enjoy this information and enjoy meeting you.

Speaker 2: 45:17

Cool so again.

Speaker 1: 45:18

Thank you so much, steve, and this is Don Thompson, and I appreciate your time listening to our interview with Steve Kaplan and I look forward to speaking with you in the next podcast. So until then, have a great week. Talk to you soon, bye-bye, bye-bye.