An Electrician's Journey Overcoming Sexism, Racism, and Homophobia in the Trades

This podcast episode features a conversation between Lia, the host, and Linsday Kearns, a red seal electrician, who works for the BC Center for Women in the Trades in British Columbia, Canada. Lindsay shares her experience as an electrician and the challenges she faced during her apprenticeship, including sexism, racism, and homophobia. She also talks about her specialization in building automation and the unpredictability of her job. The conversation highlights the importance of addressing inappropriate behavior in the workplace and creating a happy, well-paid, and satisfied workforce to create a society's economic success.

Challenges Faced During Apprenticeship [00:06:25] Lindsay discusses the challenges she faced during her apprenticeship, including the culture shock of transitioning from academia to the construction site and the prevalence of discrimination in the trades.

Sexist and Racist Jokes [00:07:13] Lindsay talks about the challenges she faced during her apprenticeship, including the prevalence of racist and sexist jokes in the workplace.

Learning to Navigate the Workplace [00:09:16] Lindsay discusses how she learned to navigate the workplace as an out queer person and how she made meaningful connections with people who held different values.

Moving from Furious to Curious [00:13:04] Lindsay shares a story about a coworker's homophobic comments and how she responded by moving from furious to curious, using the incident as an opportunity for dialogue.

Apply for Skilled Trades the Mike Rowe Scholarship
https://www.mikeroweworks.org/scholarship/

Sparky Life Recommended Books: Chase Hughes, Six-Minute X-Ray
Vanessa Van Edwards, Captivate

Music by https://www.purple-planet.com

Transcript

Lia: Hey! 

Lindsay: How’s it going?

Lia: Good, good.

Lindsay: Awesome.

Lindsay: I'm coming to you today from Unsedated Laan territory, which is the land of the Esal and just west of what's more commonly known as downtown Victoria, British Columbia, Canada. I am a Red Seal electrician. I am a proud, IBEW 30 member, a parent, a Star Trek nerd.

Lia: Yay. I love! That's my girl.

Lindsay: I work for the BC Center for Women in the Trades, uh, which is a province-wide organization here in British Columbia that works on equity and inclusion issues in the skilled trades. And then there's a program I work on, which is a, uh, leadership training program.

Lia: Very cool. Very cool. So you're an electrician.

Lindsay: I am an electrician. 

Lia: Yay!

Lindsay: This is true.

Lia: I feel the vibes. 

Lindsay: You mean the sparks. You're supposed to feel the sparks.

Lia: Right? Whenever I say I am an electrician, people immediately think residential. And because we spoke previously, I know what kind of electrician you are, but please share the type of work that you do and kind of give play by play of your day-to-day. What does it look like to do that type of work?

Lindsay: Awesome. Yeah. So the way it works here in Canada is that I have a red seal, which is a national qualification. And for electrical there’s two different types, you could be an industrial electrician or a construction electrician. So, my qualification is actually as a construction electrician, which would normally be something like residential. But what's really funny about it is that I, yeah, I, I don't actually know a great deal about those sorts of things. Because when I was very early on in my apprenticeship, I fell into doing building automation, uh, commonly known as DDC, Direct Digital Control. And for myself, when I went into electrical, it was my second career. I had already been an academic before that. And so I really wanted a job that wasn't just interesting and fun, but also had meaning. And so when I got into doing controls for the first time, as a baby apprentice, I was like, “oh, like it's energy efficiency upgrades on older buildings.” And that really spoke to my need to have a purpose. I ended up staying in that, which was really great, and I appreciate how my company was not actually gonna stop me from making that specialization, but they were definitely like, “yeah, you shouldn't do this. You need to become a well-rounded electrician.” And I was like, “nah.” So the effect of that though is that when I sat down after my many years of apprenticeship and I had all my hours and I had to go for my fourth year of schooling, at the end of that, I had to sit down and write my IP exam, which is interprovincial the very first question on the Interprovincial exam. That's the qualification exam to get your red seal in Canada. The first question was about like, given these types of like, wires, uh, like household residential, like wires for wood frame construction, what type staples would you use? And like people in the exam room are like, turn and look at me. And I'm like, sorry, sorry, just laughing. Like, good thing I am good at math and motor calculations and looking things up in the code book, because there was a whole bunch of questions that were like, oh, yeah. And like sometimes I'd ask questions in class and like other guys would look at me like, how don't, how do you not know this? And I'm like, well, cause as a controls electrician, I'm usually subcontracted underneath the mechanical trades. So, if there’s a contract for doing a renovation, like on one of the government buildings here, or um, often we get a lot of schools, there's the main electrician contract and they're taking care of the actual installation for things like, you know, the lights and the pumps and the, the fans and all that. And then I'm a subcontractor coming in, doing, okay, so there's the sheet metal workers putting in, uh, they're ducting. And I have to go to the tin bashers and be like, okay, like you're gonna be putting in a damper. I'm putting on a little motor that opens and closes that damper, so I have to talk to you. And then I have to go to like the, um, the pipe fitters and like, you know, there's radiant heating going in, so there's a whole bunch of little valves and who's ordering the valves? Are you ordering the valves? Am I ordering the valves? Did someone actually order them yet? Are they getting delivered? Then I have to bring it to them and be like, okay, like you have to install these. And then I have to bring the wires to make those valves open and close. And then I have to go to the main electricians and be like, hi, I'm an electrician. And they're like, what are you doing here? And I'm like, well, you just put in, uh, this fan and the bathroom and uh, I'm actually going to be interrupting your circuit to make it turn on and off when someone walks into the room. And Victoria's not a particularly large place. So people did know me after a little while, so it wasn't that hard, but it was sometimes funny having these conversations because, you know, the guys would be like, no, you're not. This isn't, this is, this is electrical. And I'm like, no, it's actually I have to do this. And they're like, no, cause it's not in the spec. And I'm like, aha. Cause it's not in the electrical spec, it's in the mechanical spec. 

Lia: Yeah. 

Lindsay: And uh, yeah, so I'm actually off the tools right now. I've been off the tools for three years. I work full-time doing this advocacy work, but when I was still in the tools, my main jobs, like I said, was doing little renovations sort of projects, uh, at our local Navy base, at schools. One of my favorite things about my job was just the fact that I also get service calls to all those buildings around town and it would be just like totally random things. So it's like, okay, well I'm down here at the Navy base doing this, installing, working on this. Then suddenly it's a call and it's like something, a valve's broken or something, and you gotta come and fix it because like the temperature's going up or the temperature's going down or something's happened to the humidity, I'd never know what any day would look like. And that's actually like something that I love so much.

Lia: Sounds like an adventure.

Lindsay: Seriously. But like, that's the thing when people are just like, like what do you like most about the skilled trades? I always say it's, it's like you get to go all the places that no one else is allowed to go. It's like, the door says on it, authorize people only. And I'm like, oh, that's me.

Lia: I love that. I love that.

Lindsay: It makes me so happy being in automation. I mean, I'm dealing with air handlers, so always on rooftops, the views are just spectacular. And like right where we are, we're in the south tip of, uh, Vancouver Island down at the Navy base or somewhere. It's like I'm up on a roof, you know, playing with an outdoor air temperature sensor. But what I'm actually looking at is just like this gorgeous view and like sea lions and things and it's like, oh, so few people have ever gotten a chance to stand right here and see this. And it's just incredible.

Lia: Very, very nice. I know exactly what you're talking about regarding the views. When I speak to iron workers, that's like the number one thing for them, is the views. Especially because of the heights that they're at. 

Lindsay: No kidding.

Lia: Yeah.

Lindsay: Yeah, for sure.

Lia: When you were going through the process of becoming an electrician, what would you say were some of the challenges or struggles that you faced?

Lindsay: Yeah, that's a really good question, Lia. The hardest thing for me was that I was so naive. I come from being in academia and like, don't get me wrong, when you're at a university, there is a lot of racism, sexism, homophobia, but it's very quiet. 

Lia: Politics, right?

Lindsay: Yea, and it’s just like who gets funding, who doesn’t, that sort of thing. So when I was in that setting, like there was still a lot of that sort of thing, but it wasn't, it wasn't out in the open. And I just did a total 180 outta that world and came into the skilled trades and I'm there on a construction site and there's just fucked up shit being said. And I really struggled. 

Lia: Wait, wait, wait. Can we, can we preface, give me an example of some fucked up shit that's being said?

Lindsay: Oh my god. Just like people just sitting there in the lunchroom making horrible jokes about like, I don’t know, like, indigenous people or like…

Lia: Like racist, racist jokes.

Lindsay: Racist things, racist things, racist jokes. And just going on and on and on. And also just like really sexist things. And things like, you know, like, talking about going, you know, getting a hooker drunk on the weekend and how we got a plan to do that and things like that. And I'm like…

Lia: Joy.

Lindsay: And I’m like, first off, sex work is work. So, are we all not fellow workers? But anyway…

Lia: It’s actually the oldest job in our whole civilization, it’s literally like the first out there.

Lindsay: My first job was really intense and I was sexually harassed at that job. 

Lia: Ugh. 

Lindsay: But suddenly being in this setting where people just felt comfortable saying things that were totally demeaning and dehumanizing was really, really hard. And the thing about it though, and this sounds weird and terrible maybe, but that also became what the best thing was because when things are out in the open, you can address them. 

Lia: Yes. 

Lindsay: And it's easier to say, “Hey, this is a workplace and we all deserve dignity and respect so that conversation can end right now and let's do our jobs.” And I didn't know how to do that. I did not know how to do that at all. I did not have those skills and that's what I learned. Like yeah, I also learned how to wire things and troubleshoot things and then that's the crap. But what I also learned was how to make friends and really connect with people who, I do not think that a lot of the majority of the people saying these things were actually like horrible bigots. They were just in a culture, in a situation and just sort of going with the flow and skillfully learning how to interrupt that and be like, “Hey, I'm here and yeah, I don't believe in that and I have core values and I think you do too. So let's operate on those instead.” It's still like the greatest gift that I've ever had in my entire life, was like, learning how to have really great serious, meaningful connections with people who also might say things that I then have to be like, “Hey, that's, that's not the kind of person I think you are.”

Lia: Oh, I love that. That's very impactful. That's a great way to connect and say, you know, get somebody to reassess what they're saying. Yeah.

Lindsay: Yeah. And, and don't get me wrong, many times I try to have these conversations with people and it wouldn't go anywhere. Many times I wouldn't even try to have these conversations. Many times I would just be grateful for the fact that I have keys to the mechanical room. Cause I can go and cry in there by myself. Oh, there was lots of days like that too. Do not get me wrong. I'm not some sort of amazing superhero here, but…

Lia: Oh, don't lie to us. We know you're a secret superhero.

Lindsay: But like, seriously. And I mean that so, so earnestly that that is what I got from going into the skilled trade sector. As an out queer person who was involved in stuff at a university, I never had to encounter any of that sort of stuff very overtly. And then I was suddenly put in this situation where this is who I'm with and you gotta learn to be like, okay, like who here is worth it? Cuz so many of these guys are worth it. And they still are like, these are still some of these people in my life I talk to regularly and I just, I value them so much in my life. Like, I think so often in life we tend to go with what we're comfortable with, we tend to stick with the people who make us comfortable and obviously that has value and we all need to do that to a certain degree. But, yeah, learning how to navigate those workplaces and not just like navigating them but also like finding my own place, making a place and really thriving in that. Um, I wouldn't trade it for anything.

Lia: It sounds like you had a lot of opportunity to assert yourself or to learn how to assert yourself and it sounds in a positive way, an impactful way.

Lindsay: I mean, and I actually have to say a part of that goes back to being in building automation, doing controls work. Like I was never just like one person on a big crew, go in, do what you're told and leave. I was usually one person on a very small crew if on a crew at all. And like I said earlier, like I have to go, I have to talk to the general contractor and make sure that they realize who I am and what I do. Like, because I'm a subcontractor under mechanical, I had to go and talk to the other sparkies, talk to the Tim Bashers, you know, make sure that people know that, hey, this is what I'm doing here. You might not have read my spec, but this is actually something that's really important to how this building works. The number of times, actually thankfully didn't happen too often, but it did happen a couple times in my first year on the tools, where I just go into a site and like sometimes even just be assigned to work with a guy and he'd just look at me and go, I don't work with women.

Lia: Oh really?

Lindsay: The first time that happened I just, I just sort of laughed cause I was like, well how's that working out for you? Because like 51% of the planet is assigned female at birth. 

Lia: Right. 

Lindsay: Statistically speaking, you're gonna run across several of us.

Lia: Well you're, you're not going to check out at your grocery store or go to the bank and what, what if there's a woman there. No, I don't, I don't work with women. How, how are you gonna make that fly? 

Lindsay: Yeah. And it's like, well I've been assigned to work with you and like, I don't know, last I checked, we are both brothers in our brotherhood union. So, uh, pretty sure that, you know, solidarity means everyone. So, hi, I'm your apprentice. Tell me what to do. With running the leadership program that I run now, uh, one of the people that I come in, I have come in to do leadership skills and communication skills with us. He's fantastic. His name is Jeremy and his has a little, uh, facilitation, um, educating company called Enhanced Coaching here in Lower mainland in Maine, near Vancouver. And he has this thing about, but he talks about the challenge of moving from furious to curious. And sometimes it's so hard sometimes in an instant like that though, it's pretty easy because it's hard to even stick in furious because it's so funny. 

Lia: Yeah.

Lindsay: There was a time when I was down at the Navy base and there was a whole bunch of us tradespeople working in this big room. Like there was a duct going in. There was some, some heating happening over here. Like we had all these different tradespeople. A worker came in, uh, who said he was talking about how it'd just been on the news that uh, one of the things that happens here when a navy ship comes back is that there's the first kiss of the family members being greeted on the docks.

Lia: Aww. 

Lindsay: And so the, yeah. And so the um, the sailors are allowed to put their name in the draw to be chosen for the first kiss. 

Lia: Aww.

Lindsay: And so for the first time ever, the first kiss was with these two guys, and so it was in the news.

Lia: That's kinda cool.

Lindsay: I can just imagine the phone call that happened there. Like, hey hunny, I put my name in, and it got drawn, so how would you like to make history? 

Lia: Really?

Lindsay: Cause you know, it’s all on the paper, just saying the HMS or whatever came into dock and here’s the first kiss. But this guy was ranting about it and going on and on, about how it shouldn't be allowed and how he doesn't care if people are gay, but they shouldn't be talking about it and then they shouldn't like, make a show of it and all this sort of stuff. I don't really know this guy very well. And sometimes when this happens, like, you know, I would just like roll my eyes and just do my job cause I do not have the fucking energy. But this day, like I was feeling sort of salty and energetic, and so I just looked at him and I just said, I'm gay.

Lia: Ah, what, what was he like? Oh shit.

Lindsay: No. The best. He goes, no you're not.

Lia: Oh he's gotta he's got, he's gotta argue it cuz he is like, shit. 

Lindsay: And I laughed. And I, I, you know, I was like, ok, like I'm still working and I'm just doing my stuff and going up and down my little ladder and doing my stuff and I'm like, yeah, I'm pretty sure I am, he's like, no you can't be. And I was like, well, you know, uh, my spouse and I have been married for a while. We have a toddler. I’m pretty certain, I have some pretty good witnesses that, you know, I'm gay. He's like, you can't be. And I was like…

Lia: What?

Lindsay: Tell me more.

Lia: Yeah, so adamant. 

Lindsay: He's like, he's like, you don't look gay.

Lia: Oh, so wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Hold that thought. Hold that thought. This is one of the myths that I love busting open: the large majority of men in the trades, and men and women outside of the trades, as soon as you tell them that you work in the trades, they usually think you're gay. Like immediately. That's what makes this especially interesting, because he is adamant that you're not gay. Now what was this genius reason for how he figured this?

Lindsay: So I, I laughed and I said, oh yeah. Hmm, you're right. I'm just making that up. And like, I was like, yeah, you, you actually can tell I'm not gay because you know, when you look at my hands, I don't have that thing that gay people always have where this finger is longer than that finger. You know? And I'm standing there like this and he's like, oh, oh, that's, oh, okay, actually I didn't know about that. And he comes over to look at…

Lia: Oh my goodness gracious. 

Lindsay: And I knew his name and I was like, are you fucking kidding me? That's not a thing. You can't tell who's gay from looking at them. That's not a thing, dude. The entire room of guys because there's like four to five other guys, maybe a few more in the room and all working and you like, no one's saying a fucking thing. 

Lia: They're loving it. They're loving it. 

Lindsay: And as soon as I said that and I was like, yeah, that thing with your hands and you could tell, and, and he's like, oh, really cool. And then I was like, no, are you fucking kidding me? Like laughing at him. They all started laughing. They all started laughing. And you know what, two of these guys I knew from other jobs, and they're not exactly people I would describe as allies.

Lia: Right.

Lindsay: But in that instance they were like, oh, she got him good. 

Lia: Yeah.

Lindsay: And, that guy though, he is just like, whoa. Well I just, I didn't, I didn't know that. I didn't know, I didn't know that. And I was like, yeah, okay. I said, but just, you know, going forward, think about that for a second. When you start mouthing off like that, you don't know who's in the room.

Lia: Right. Right. 

Lindsay: He was like, yeah, okay. And he left.

Lia: He was probably so embarrassed.

Lindsay: Well, but the thing here is that he actually was an employee of, of the general contractor running that site.

Lia: Okay.

Lindsay: We all signed a code of conduct. The things he said would have, like, they actually could have gotten fire worked for one of the biggest places in town here. Like if I'd gone to them and said, this is, these are the things he said. He could have been, been fired or very least disciplined pretty severely. And I didn't do that.

Lia: Wait, okay. Hold that thought. So this is very important, because, when I started working in the trades, it took a long time for the guys to warm up to me. When they did, I would say the most common thing I heard them say was, you know, it's not like I really care if women are in the trades or not. I'm afraid I'm gonna make a dirty joke or, or say something and then you're gonna run to HR. And that's my livelihood. So why is the idea that we can't communicate? Why is it your, why is the automatic thought process that we're gonna go run to HR and that we can't address it ourselves, like regular humans? Cuz look what you just did. You, he, he's saying something and very, a very personal thing. You're, you're gay and he is demeaning people who are gay. He's talking about it in a very, looking down upon, dismissal, disrespectful way, that's a sensitive subject. You know, I would consider my sexuality sensitive. And you didn't do that. You just, you basically addressed it with tact and and then you did, you did something even better. You got him to see how foolish he was being. That just brought that experience to a whole nother level. There is no way he didn't go back and assess that whole situation.

Lindsay:  Well. And so what happened next is that he avoided me. And previous to that we had an okay friendly relationship. We had a friendly relationship. I knew his name and he avoided me. Like I'd come into a room and he immediately leave and I'm like, okay, whatever. I don't know if he was waiting to see if I was gonna tell him.

Lia: He's probably terrified.

Lindsay: Maybe. But a couple weeks later, he came and found me and he said, uh, hey, uh, I just got the news that I'm actually being moved to another site that we're starting up, uh, down. And I said, oh, like, you know what site? And he told me and I was like, oh actually I do a lot of work on the telecom building that's across the street from there, so maybe I'll see you again. And he said, uh, he said, yeah, he said, that'd be great, but you know, I just wanted say goodbye before I leave. And he's like, I wanted to say thank you, uh, it's been a real pleasure working with you and I wanted to shake your hand.

Lia: Aw my god.

Lindsay: And so I shook his hand. And he shook mine and it was like, ok, that's awesome. I said, thanks very much. I liked working with you too. And he's like, great, I hope we get to do it again someday. And I said, me too. And this being, a fairly small city…

Lia: Right.

Lindsay: …on the south end of an island, I did bump into him and every time I'd be on a site and I'd bump into him, I'd always say hey, you know, his name. And he'd be like, hi Lindsay. But if you say the other guy said she needs anything, you make sure that she gets it. Cause you know, she's one of the best people. And it became a thing and we just, we never mentioned it again about why, but you know, I really, I love your question because you know, I have some wonderful mentors in my life. Uh, one in particular who is a health and safety expert and she hates that story.

Lia: She hates it?

Lindsay: Yeah, she does. 

Lia: I love it. 

Lindsay: Cause you can't rely on somebody having your, like the skills and comfort that I had to be like, fuck this fool. I'm gonna show him up. And he should have had to face the consequences of his actions. And there's a lot of things at play there. One of them is power. This man is older than me. I wasn't a red seal at that point, but I was on my way. I was an apprentice still in a trade where I am gonna be earning a lot more than him in life. And I am well-spoken, very educated. Um, I'm pretty cute,

Lia: Very cute. 

Lindsay: On a construction site, despite being a woman, being an out queer person, having to constantly deal with being questioned and undermined, on a lot of levels, I actually have a lot of power on a construction site. The guys seek my approval. When it's lunchtime or break time, they wanna come and talk to me. If I'm trying to move something, they wanna come and help. Not all of them. Sometimes they're assholes and they just sit there and watch and I'm like, can you come and lift the other end of this even though it's not your job, because this is too heavy and I don't wanna throw my back out. And they're like, oh, okay. Then they will. But you know what I mean? In general, on a construction site, I knew that I had the power in that situation because I'm comfortable with who I am.

Lia: You also come across to me like you trust that the majority of us are good inside. Most of us don't wanna be horrible people. 

Lindsay: Yeah. 

Lia: I, we don't wanna hate, we don't wanna, at least I believe that the majority of humanity wants to be elevated. I Want to be good. And you gave him an opportunity to elevate himself. You created a connection and you did it in such a fantastic way. I  can empathize with the direction your friend is coming from, but I wonder if then he would have made such a drastic change in his attitude. It could have reinforced this hate or this, cuz most of the time I think the hate comes from real fear.

Lindsay: Yeah.

Lia: And I'd have to say that I feel your approach and the way you handled it is something that I would lean more towards. I just feel you killed him with kindness in a way. 

Lindsay: Yeah. You gave him an opportunity to improve who he is and enlighten and, and make a connect. We're, we're human. We connect with one another. We're, we work best in teams. We're supposed to have tribes. That's, that's how we operate.

Lindsay: I think also there though, I did harness the power of the other guys being in the room.

Lia: Yes. 

Lindsay: To laugh at him. And that also is one of the benefits of that situation was having the ability to know that if I can be funny, that's really powerful too. 

Lia: Yes. 

Lindsay: And that's one of the things I say. It's like, don't, I'm fun, I'm a lot of fun. I make good jokes. We should hang out. We would have fun in the boiler room putting together our stuff, but it's not gonna happen if you're gonna be jerks and if you're gonna sit there and like mouth off with some sort of bigoted bullshit cuz I'm not gonna hang out with you and you're gonna miss out cause I'm pretty fun. And overall the best method I found over the years and I, I give this advice to people a lot actually is if you, if you're dealing with somebody who you work with and you think that they like it's worth it, try to get 'em alone. The first thing I always say to 'em is like, you know, I need to talk to you about something. I need you to know how much everyone here looks up to you. And it doesn't have to be true. You can just fucking say it. It doesn't matter if it's what, everyone loves to hear that. Everyone loves to hear that. That's something about connecting. Everyone loves to hear that people look up to them. So start with that. Cuz then you win them on, you win them onto your side. And I always say, so earlier when you said whatever racist thing.

Lia: Right?

Lindsay: Homophobic thing or whatever. And so when you say stuff like that, like I know that's not who you are. I know because I've worked with you that you like, you believe in dignity and respect for everybody, because that’s the sort of person you are, and you are one of those people here who sets the tone. So if you say things that demean other people, it sets the tone that that's cool. And I know that's not the kind of workplace you want cause that's not the kind of workplace I want. So let's see what we can do to change that around. Like, you know, I just, I really wanna make sure that you know the power you have on this construction site. And when you say that to someone, he's like, oh yeah. Oh, because you're giving them a chance to step in their responsibility in leadership. You're giving them a chance to say Yeah like to engage and be like, yeah, who am I? And people pay attention to me. Everyone wants to know they matter and you're telling him, hey you matter, what you say matters. So don't say shit that's fucked up because it matters.

Lia: Yes. Yes. That is such a good approach. You're, you're very fucking smart because…

Lindsay: I know, thanks.

Lia: Very, very smart, uh, Vanessa Van Edwards, has a book, “Captivate'', where she speaks about a study that was done where they had a control group of course, and they had the testing group, and they would call up people and try to get politicians and like donations, okay? And, the control group, they would call, and do their regular speech, and the group that was being compared, they would say, oh last year, you were so giving you donated blank amount, and we were just wondering if you would be willing to donate again this year. And here’s the catch: the catch is, they had never donated before. And, almost, I forget the percentage exactly, but it was like almost 95% of the time, when they would tell the person that they had donated before, and that they were supportive, and that they’re givers, they would donate. Us humans, we have, we have this psychological desire to feel that valuable role that you put upon us. And the opposite of this is the Golem effect. So that's where you tear somebody down and what you are doing is pure genius. I know a lot of tech companies have jumped on to this, creating a positive work environment, and I don’t know if you have a labor shortage in Canada,  as that…

Lindsay: Oh my goodness.

Lia: Oh okay. We have a really bad, bad labor shortage here. Deficit dangerously so.

Lindsay: Yeah. 

Lia: Even though the labor shortage is complicated and there are many factors that contribute, one of the factors is that there was never a cultural shift within the construction companies , construction world, and they focus on this imperial structure and not on building the team up. 

Lindsay: Lia, like that's exactly it. And it's one of those things like people say, oh you miss being on the tools, you love being on the tools. Why are you doing this advocacy work then? Because you could just go back out there. And like, I could. The thing is, is that I really love having a chance to do what I do because I'm trying to make that shift. We know from studies done and specifically the study that, that we had done here in 2017 in British Columbia, is that we have a lot of diverse groups of people start in the skilled trades. They do not get fully qualified. And if they do get qualified, fully qualified, they leave after. And the top three reasons are toxic work culture, lack of opportunities for advancement, lack of a community of peers. And we know that like those are things we can address, which is what the organization I work for specifically is working on. And this is the thing, like I go and I talk to unions and I talk to employers and I talk to trades training institutions and I talk to people like trades people themselves. This is what I always try to get through to them, is that like, when we're talking about doing equity and inclusion initiatives and we're talking about changing the culture, this isn't something special that we're asking for, for like, people of color or for women or for queer people or whatever. It's actually what we need to do for the sake of the economy.

Lia: A hundred percent. A hundred percent.

Lindsay: It's not special treats for underrepresented groups, it's for us as an entire society, we need to make sure that we have enough happy, well paid satisfied, not too stressed out workers to keep our industrial plans going, to do maintenance, to build housing, do energy efficiency upgrades in schools so that we're considering less electricity. Like, this is really important.

Lia: Yes. In the US, we do not have any issues with the minorities having access to construction careers. I spoke with a woman who said it beautifully, so I will reiterate what she told me. The doors are open but we're not welcome. The numbers I believe are 70% of women who enter the trades don't finish. 

Lindsay: Yeah. 

Lia: And 40% of the men don't finish. Now what does that tell you? It's not just a minority issue. 

Lindsay: No. And it's not a recruitment issue, it's a retention issue.

Lia: A hundred percent. A hundred percent. And just like you said, economy-wise, America right now, we, we're in, we are not in a good spot. There's 1.5 trillion worth of college debt and out of that college debt only 50% actually graduate. And then when they graduate, they're not getting six figure jobs to pay off the debt. They're drowning, most of them 50,000 a year, 60,000 a year, and they’re drowning. They can't pay it off. They can't move forward.

Lindsay: Yeah. My parents were not supportive at first. And please understand, I I love my parents very much. Oh, I hope they're gonna listen to this.

Lia: Mom, dad, we love you.

Lindsay: Mom, dad, we love you. Um, because they wanted me to be a university professor and I understand that, like they, for them, they uh, my mom and dad each were the first people from their families to go to university. Like it was, it's significant. And so they had this idea like, oh you're a smarty pants so you go to university. And I did obviously. And they really wanted that for me. And I understand why they were very supportive after a while, especially when they saw me making a lot of money. 

Lia: Oh wait, okay. So to give an idea, can you give the listeners a, um, a range of what an electrician makes in your area so they have a good idea?

Lindsay: Yeah, actually now I'm just like, I wanna pull out the IBW, uh, wage chart for my region, mostly because I actually, I often have it saved as a PDF on my phone, because when I'm out talking to baby Sparkies anywhere, I'm always just like, yeah, like these are, this is a reason to choose not just a trade but also to choose working for the union, cuz the union has tons of work right now and they dispatch you and you don't have to like ask for these raises. This is what you make. And I, I think, I can't remember how much it is right now, but the journey rate is 40 something dollars an hour. And so as an apprentice you make a percentage of that. When I started, and then keep in mind, this was 2010 is when I started, um, I was at a, uh, pre-apprentice rate, uh, only temporarily for my first few months. Um, and I think that was $16 an hour, but that was only for three months just to get into the union. And then once I was in the union, I mean I was making like, I think $20 an hour all the way up through, I mean, and then and with raises every six months.

Lia: Yes.

Lindsay: Yeah. And like that's that, I mean that's definitely for my parents in terms of what brought them on board was the fact that I didn't have very much student loan debt, but I had a little bit left over from university and I was able to pay that off. I was able to afford to have two children, and to buy a house.

Lia: Yes.

Lindsay: There's things like that, you know, I think my parents from seeing their, their, their friends children's who did stay in academia struggle and, and be, you know, putting together like, sessional teaching positions and having to move all over North America or even to Europe to, to work at universities and, and that whole like, not having stability. Whereas here I am and I'm like, cool, well it's the weekend so I'm going hiking with my dog. 

Lia: Right.

Lindsay: This was giving me the life that they would've hoped for, for me. As someone who does a lot of advocacy stuff when I go into schools, people from my leadership training program, that's something a lot of them love to do is they like to volunteer to do, to go into schools to talk about trades. And it's a struggle because, and I see this within my own family, like my family, uh, my stepmother's a librarian, but my other parents are, are teachers. That is actually a little bit of an issue that when you have teachers being the ones in control of presenting career options to young people, if they as teachers come from a bias of, the trades are for people who aren't very smart, because they haven't encountered a different viewpoint on that, that's actually what's being taught to the students. 

Lia: Right. 

Lindsay: People who aren't from the skilled trades don't have that education and they don't understand the amount of work that's involved. The amount of knowledge, the amount of skill, the amount of like, oh my gosh, the legalese used in these code questions. 

Lia: Yes. Yes. 

Lindsay: It's just intense. And so if they don't know that and no one's told them that, then they don’t know. They just sort of like, oh yeah, an electrician, you come and install light switches.

Lia: Yes. That's immediately the thought. Yep. Immediately.

Lindsay: No, that's not, that's not what I do at all. And, and so if, if you come from a family where everyone's a teacher, hello, my English nerds out there, people are like, oh, you're really good at grammar, I'm like, that’s because in my family, it's a blood sport, we sit around the kitchen table and argue. We don't play Scrabble because we can't because it leads to too many fights. Like, yeah, it is really funny. Cause I'm like, no, in my family the thing to do would've been to become a teacher. 

Lia: Yes. 

Lindsay: And I, I, so I understand that to a certain degree that like, for a lot of people like, that is one of the things we're up against too is that like, people don't know about the skilled trades, and also people within the skilled trades don't necessarily share it. So people don't understand that actually, like it took me longer to get my red seal than it did to get my degree. Uh, and it was 6,000 hours and tons and tons of school in many late nights. 

Lia: Yes.

Lindsay: And um, yeah.

Lia: That's why the work that you're doing is so important. I really wanna create a soft skills course to help the construction companies over here elevate the atmosphere. It, like you said, it comes back to our society. If, if you don't want the society to crumble, you can't destroy the foundation. I say this all the time, we’re the matrix. We are the matrix. Forget your tech companies. Okay. They have their place, but guess what? The building you're in, the electricity, how that internet is happening right now: we are the foundation of the culture, of society. Why wouldn't you value and elevate that? Why wouldn't you promote that? That's how civilization grows. It, it, it's, I don't know how we got so far away from this. You know, just because I am a firm believer in construction careers and trades and the value of it, doesn't mean I dismiss university. There's a, there's a place for college. A hundred percent. But when you have kids graduating with a history degree or psych degree or communications degree, there's no, they don't have any prospects.

Lindsay: Yeah.

Lia: But they're in six figures worth of debt. I mean, you're doing them a disservice. What, what you're doing is criminal. It's criminal, because they are following the lead of the teachers, the school, their parents. And if I would've been exposed to the trades in high school,a hundred percent, I would've been interested in pursuing the career as an electrician. Now I don't regret the path that I took because I firmly believe it gave me the tools to be who I am today and where I am today. However, I definitely would've jumped on board if I knew this was even an option for me.

Lindsay: Yeah. For me, one of the things that it really would've helped me with, like if I had known about trades sooner, would be confidence. I struggle with, with tests, I struggle with retaining information sometimes depending on how it's brought to me. So when I started university, uh, I, I was failing. Like I really, I struggled with the format of having to like, have lectures and then retain information, and then vomit it back out on exams, the stress and like being in huge exam halls, trying to prove myself. And it was really, it was really bad. And so I, uh, I ended up taking a study skills course, uh, offered through the counseling center at my university, which is actually what turned things around for me. 

Lia: Oh, that's wonderful. That's wonderful.

Lindsay: Yeah, it was really wonderful. But I wish I'd known about trades before that because I wish I'd had some sort of experience of knowing that I, I can learn things differently. For me, like I, I was never good at math. Math was always really hard for me. And then when I was 28, like I was 28 when I went to electrical school and I did this foundation program at the college here, which is a six month full-time program. Um, and it's an introduction to everything. And, and so they have one for uh, they have ones for different traits. So I was in the one specifically for electrical. That course is where I learned that I'm good at math, because the math that we were doing, it's not that it was easy math, it's that it was applied.

Lia: Yes, yes.

Lindsay: I'm troubleshooting this. Here's the problem, fix this. I love that. And I find it so enjoyable and I wish I'd known that about myself sooner because I think then I wouldn't have failed so much at the beginning of university. Um, because I also was really scared cause I felt like I didn't have any other options. It's funny how going into the trades also just like unlocked a different part of my brain that I don't think I had access to before that.

Lia: That's so cool. I had the same experience. I'm, I'm dyslexic and school was a nightmare for me. And, I hated school, with passion. The worst would be when the teacher would call on you and you’d have to read, and I’d be sounding out the words, and stuttering, I mean absolutely brutal, brutal. And, I was terrible at math, informational retrieval issue, on top of dyslexia, and, a lot of times, because I was quiet, and I didn’t cause trouble, they just passed me. But it’s not because I knew what the fuck I was doing at all, cuz I didn’t. And then I started to get into the trades, all of a sudden I was like, Holy Shit…math rocks! This is awesome, man. I never in my entire life would you ever think that I would do math and do it well. And it’s what you said, you’re applying it. Now, Chase Hughes has a book, “Six-Minute X-Ray” where he talks about the importance of, not reading the book, studying the material, and then just vomiting it back out, but actually implementing the knowledge, you have to do the action with the learning to really excel, to really learn, to really, really absorb. So, I love, that, that tickles me pink, that you had the same, or similar, experience. I’m not alone.

Lindsay: No, you’re not alone, you’re not alone! You know, and it’s funny, that thing of not being alone, because like, like I said, the three main reasons why women, but also other people from underrepresented groups don’t stay in the trades: toxic work culture, lack of opportunities for advancement, lack of community of peers. That is the one that is so key. And that’s part of this leadership program I run, like yeah, on one hand, what we do, is we get together, around a dozen or twenty tradespeople from underrepresented groups, for five days together, and yeah, we’re doing workshops on like, communication, and harm reduction, and like, I don’t know, writing a proposal. But, the real value, of that week together, is the peer connections. 

Lia: That’s why I started this podcast. A hundred percent. 

Lindsay: Yeah, because you, you need that, you need that, especially, cause everyone needs that in general, in life.

Lia: Yes. I love that. I love that. Networking, mentorship, wonderful. Okay, we are having too much fun. I’m running out of time. I want to ask you, I use this analogy a lot, because it’s been very meaningful, in my life. With everything that you’ve learned, with your experience, your path in life, what’s in your tool belt? What’s something you always carry with you every day that impacts you and helps you achieve your goals?

Lindsay: I mean, 100%, my sense of humor. 

Lia! Yeah! I love!

Lindsay: I laugh at shit; I laugh at shit when I shouldn’t. 

Lia: Me too, me too! Aw, soul sister.

Lindsay: If I can’t laugh at stuff, what’s the fucking point?

Lia: Yes.

Lindsay: And don’t get me wrong, I cry at stuff too, sometimes I laugh while crying, that’s always fun. And sometimes it’s a whim that’s making me laugh, and sometimes, you know, sometimes it’s just cuz things are really bad, but I don’t know. Yeah. 

Lia: Good sense of humor. Good sense of humor. Yeah, life is about having fun.

Lindsay: In some ways I think it’s a privilege not to take things too seriously.

Lia: I agree. Well thank you so much for being here, thank you so much for sharing with us. You are fabulous. 

Lindsay: Thank you so much for having me, seriously, this is such a joy, and I just, I could, I could just keep talking to you forever, this has been so great. 

Lia: Same. Same. 

Lindsay: Really appreciate it.