Hey, this is BT Erwin. Thank you for listening to the Christian Chronicle podcast. This week we released two episodes instead of our usual one. The other one, episode 37, is our regular three-part format. You'll find it right now in whatever podcast service you use. We cover how COVID is continuing to affect congregations. We interview Christians on the ground in Ukraine and we learn about Arab Christian refugees in Austria who are now helping Ukrainian Christian refugees coming to that country. So please give that one a listen. But first, we hope you enjoy this long form interview with an important author writing about an important matter. May God bless you as you listen and ponder.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the Christian Chronicle podcast. We're bringing you the stories that are shaping Church of Christ congregations and members around the world. Here's our host, BT Erwin.
Speaker 1:Family and friends, neighbors and, most of all, strangers. Welcome to the Christian Chronicle podcast. May what you are about to hear bless you and honor God. Any murder is horrific, but on September 6, 2018, a murder took place that shocked the world and stunned Church of Christ folks in particular. That night in Dallas, texas, an off-duty police officer, amber Geiger, entered the apartment of both of them Jean, a member and worship leader at Dallas West Church of Christ, mistaking Jean's apartment for her own. Geiger shot and killed him while he sat eating ice cream and watching TV. The news of an off-duty police officer killing a man while he watched TV in his own home was shocking enough, but it soon became part of a bigger story that is older than any American living today. That is how, and how often, unarmed black Americans die at the hands of law enforcement. After a contentious trial that made international news, a Dallas jury found Geiger guilty of murder and sentenced her to 10 years in prison. That short sentence, however, did not stay in the story for long. Rather, jean's younger brother, brandt, made headlines when he embraced Geiger and forgave her in front of the packed courtroom. That gesture became the story for many Christians around the world. In fact, it inspired some Church of Christ congregations to take up correspondence with Geiger herself when she went to prison.
Speaker 1:Meanwhile, church of Christ folks around the world continue to memorialize Jean, including at his alma mater, harding University, a school with deep roots and strong ties in the Church of Christ tradition. But one person wonders if memorials and service projects in speaking words of forgiveness is the best we can do. And frankly, she's having a hard time with all of it. Because to her, both of them, jean was not a news story. He was her brother, her best friend, her companion. While most of the world moved on after his death, she and her family are still grieving, still hurting and still wrestling with questions about forgiveness and justice and the strange way those things do or don't go together.
Speaker 1:Alisa Charles Finley is both of Jean's older sister. She is founder and president of the Botham Jean Foundation, which carries on his legacy by supporting youth empowerment, social justice and poverty intervention programs around the world. She recently wrote and released a book After Both of them Healing for my Brother's Murder by a Police Officer. She's here to talk to us now. Alisa Charles Finley, thank you for making time to share with us today.
Speaker 3:Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:So pleased to have you here. So let's start with this. I reckon most people listening to this show have at least a little bit of experience with grieving the death of someone they love. One of the things I noticed about your book is that it may be one of the most poignant and powerful expressions of personal grief that I've ever read. A few times along the way you remind readers that while Botham was an image most people saw on their screens or a news story to you, he was your brother and closest friend. So while the rest of the world moved on quickly, as the world tends to do, you're still living with the loss five years later. Would you be willing to tell us about how grieving your brother has changed over the last five years and what it feels like now?
Speaker 3:I would say every year has been different. It has been new experiences. Grief is something that it's not black and white. I know a lot of people tend to think that you go through the stages of grief and you're good once you're done with the final stage. Then you move on. And it's not that way. Five years later, I still find myself going through the angry phase. I still find myself going through acceptance. I still find myself going back into denial. So you go through different stages. At any point. With losing Botham, I've accepted the fact that I will never get over his loss.
Speaker 3:I think the grieving for him will be a lifelong experience for me. I still speak about him in the present tense because he still is my brother, I am my brother's keeper and I will forever still have his back. Even though he's no longer living, I still tell him good morning. Every morning I have a picture of him and I say good morning to him. I say good night. So grief is not something that you could just go through and be done with. Botham is still very much a part of my life and will always be.
Speaker 1:I have to congratulate you on writing a book that is really raw in its truth. I think anyone who's lost someone, especially someone who's lost someone tragically, could really identify a little bit. You gave them voice in your book. For Christians, I think the temptation is to try to explain it all the way or, as you said, get through it as fast as we can or sometimes make it all feel better with platitudes. But I think you do an amazing job just being in your grief. With all its confusion and messiness In the American church these days we may forget Jesus wept and I think maybe we've lost the ancient art of lamentation. So, as a Christian who you admit, you struggle with everything that happened over the last five years. What are you learning about grief and what are you learning about lament?
Speaker 3:I am learning to take every day, just one day at a time, one moment at a time. I think in the beginning I tried to rush myself with the process that society dictates. You know, you agree for your loved one and you move on and keep it moving, even when it came down to my faith. I was raised in the Church of Christ, born and raised, and we were raised in that question. God, and everything happens for a reason and all these little verses that people throw at you that they think will make you feel better, but it actually makes you feel worse. Wow.
Speaker 3:So my struggle, my first struggle with losing both of them, was with my faith, where I was struggling not to question God and ask why. Because I prayed for both of them right before I went to sleep that night and less than an hour later I get a call from Baylor University Hospital asking me to identify my brother over the phone. So right there, my faith took a hit. I still continue to pray, I still continue to go through the motions, but it's especially when it comes from your brothers and sisters in Christ, where I would go to church every Sunday and I would sing the hymns and I could hear both them singing these hymns because he loved to sing I would cry my eyes out and after service my eyes would be all puffy and red and my brothers and sisters would come up to me and say how's your mom doing, how's your dad doing, but not how Alisa is doing. I was going through it as well, so it was really a struggle.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I, when you wrote about that in your book and you're saying it right now, I, when my dad died a year ago, I went to a grief share, which is kind of a grief ministry that some churches do, and one of the things I was really surprised to learn from other people in grief share is that church was the loneliest place for them, because when a child died they talked about how they felt kind of abandoned in church and so when you wrote about your feelings in church loneliness, I think people not asking you how you were doing that really kind of hit home, because it appears that a lot of people who are going through grief are struggling at church and that that may surprise a lot of people.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it surprised me Going through it. It really surprised me because I would go expecting to, you know, to just have my, my, my brothers and sisters in Christ rally around me and, you know, give me strength and I would walk out feeling just empty, I would walk out feeling lonely. So that, yeah, that was, that was, that was my first hit. That was my my first surprise and it's over the the years.
Speaker 3:I felt ashamed because I was mad at God. That's something I did not want to say out loud, I did not want to share with anyone, because it was how could you be mad at God? Yeah, so I struggled with that. I struggled with it a lot and even though I went to service, I went to Bible class, I, you know, prayed. There was still that in the back of my head Like, well, you know, you're praying. You asked God to protect both of them and look what happened. So it was, it was, it was an internal struggle for me that I had. I really had to get past and I felt like I had no one to assist me in in dealing with that.
Speaker 1:Where did you eventually find someone to help you through that, and where did you find them?
Speaker 3:I found therapy. I found in 2021. I I just had this breakdown because I wasn't sleeping my mind, which is, I just couldn't shut off my mind and I went to my doctor and she recommended that I see a therapist, that I see a psychiatrist, that I see her. Like this whole regimen and I felt like, if I'm okay, if I'm going to put my physical and mental back together, I also have to put my spiritual, and I started the same way. My therapist would tell me you know, I need to set time aside to journal For me. I also set time aside to do my devotion, to do my Bible studies, to pray, to just meditate and to be one with God. So is at the same time, I felt like, if I'm going to work on this, I definitely have to work on my relationship with God, because that's most important to me.
Speaker 1:How's that? That's an interesting thing. How has that changed for you? So you went to your doctor in 2021, you hadn't slept. You started to see a therapist and psychiatrist and you started to work on your relationship with God. What is it like for you now to work on a relationship with God, to do that daily devotional practice, compared to before?
Speaker 3:So right now I'm not angry. I'm no longer angry at God, I think I, for me, I look at it as if you're angry with your best friend. You still have to make that approach to mend your relationship. So I, in the beginning it was, it was a little stiff, for lack of a better word. It was I would find my Bible lessons on faith.
Speaker 3:I started with doing just Bible lessons on faith, like the weekly lessons on faith, different ones, where I got back into the groove of reading my Bible and taking that time out, and then I would go on to lessons on peace, lessons on forgiveness, and it just really got me back into. Well, I know this, I this is not new, I remember this and it just it got back to a place where I was familiar. And that's what I wanted. I wanted to get back to the old Elisa where I knew all of this. You know, we did Bible verses, Bible lessons, we did memory verses every Sunday, and this is what I know, this is what I'm used to, this is where I feel most at peace. So I did all of this to a point where I felt back to my old self and most at peace. And I still do it. I still have my alarms going off for my devotion, because it's something that I just don't want to ever happen again.
Speaker 1:I you mentioned this a few times anger, and everybody who knows the stages of grief knows the anger as part of that. In your case, though, elisa, you know a lot of people listening to this, know what it's like to lose someone, and most people lose someone. They say, well, it was too soon. Right, it was too soon, but in your case, your brother was 26 years old. He was eating ice cream and watching TV in his own home, and a stranger walked into his home and shot and killed him, which has to be has to lead to a different kind of anger than most of us could ever imagine, and so tell us how the way that you lost your brother Tell us that has affected your anger and your grief, and you've had to work through so much more than most of us can even comprehend. So would you mind talking a little bit about that?
Speaker 3:For me it was. I think there is something called survivor's guilt that, to me, is real. On September 6, 2018, I spoke to both of them. He was driving home from work and, as always, he would give me a call because traffic is crazy in Dallas. So he called to get through traffic and we spoke. It was a like conversation. We spoke about his birthday coming up on September 29. We spoke about I reminded him that it was the first game of the NFL season and he again tried to get me to do the fantasy football and like it's too much.
Speaker 3:We just had this really great like conversation. We spoke about like just any and everything. And then he mentioned his friend Kevin, invited him to go to a sports bar to watch the first game and, in true big sister fashion, I said, no, stay home, because I always feel like you're safer at home. So when I say survivors, guilt is real, I still feel guilty, wow, about telling them stay home. And he listened to his big sister and he stayed home. And then, hours later, I got a call asking me to identify my brother over the phone because he was shot in his apartment. So that I think, no matter how much therapy I receive, how much prayer I go through, how many Bible lessons the survivors guilt is, it will always be there.
Speaker 1:Wow, I can't even. I can't even imagine. I know we're praying for you. I know people are praying for you right now as soon as they heard you say that there's another, there's another angle on this, and imagine it's also part of the struggle for you. Forgive me, this is a little bit of a long question. So your brother's death in Amber Geiger's trial conviction and then sentencing raised a lot of really difficult, messy questions about forgiveness and justice and how those things relate Most of all for Christians.
Speaker 1:First, there's the question of justice. You know, is it just for a murderer and I remind the audience that a jury of her peers convicted her of murder not manslaughter murder to get a 10 year sentence with a chance at parole in at six years. So she's up for parole a year from now. So you know, I imagine a lot of people listening to this would be outraged if it was their brother or sister or daughter or son who died, the way both of them died.
Speaker 1:And then, second, there's the question of forgiveness, and you wrote in your book and a lot of people remember this your brother Brent made international news when, at the sentencing, he made a public statement of forgiveness and he embraced Amber Geiger in the courtroom. And that gesture delighted the church, led to an outpouring of compassion and support for Amber Geiger. And so I think all this raises the question about how forgiveness and justice can coexist, because God is just and God is merciful. Most of us have the luxury of just ignoring that question and going on about our lives because it may be too hard to answer, but you haven't really had a choice. You've been living it for five years, so what have you learned about the strange relationship between forgiveness and justice?
Speaker 3:I would say not more justice, but accountability. We are all, no matter who we are, no matter if we do something wrong. There is accountability for our actions. So with Amber Geiger she walked into Botham's apartment, pulled out her service pistol, shot him, killed him. During the trial, she was asked if she intended to kill him and she said yes, murder. For a murder conviction you need to prove intent. And she said she intended, so that's the murder conviction. She was sentenced to 10 years. That is what happens when you commit a crime.
Speaker 3:For my brother, brant I heard someone refer to it as the hug felt around the world I am really proud of him for getting to the point of forgiveness. Brant was, at the time, 18 years old. Botham was his hero. He looked up to Botham for the first for the year from 2018 to 2019. Brant was, I would consider, nonverbal because he was silent. He was silent for like a year. He would just give you yes or no responses and just shrug. He was a shell for a year. So for him to get to the point of forgiveness shows a lot of strength. I think we saw Christ in the courtroom that day.
Speaker 3:He also received a lot of backlash for it. Even though you have some Christians, some churches, who felt you know they embraced him for it. There were also some Christians and some churches that resented him for it. Really yes, to the point where I had to tell him to just stay off social media. We got emails. I got emails. I don't know how people got my email address, but I got emails from Christians, from pastors from faculty, from professors all over the world saying how could he betray us? My response to everyone is the same you don't have to understand it, but you do have to respect it. It's his decision. He did it for himself, not for anybody else.
Speaker 3:And again, I admire him for it because, at 18 years old at the time, to be able to free himself from all this anger and to because he has the rest of his life ahead of him, I am so proud of him. And for everyone else, I mean, that's between you and God, right? So again, I am my brother's keeper. Yes, I will fight his battles. I will have the conversation, have the debates with anyone who doesn't understand what he did For me. I am not there yet. I'm not at the point of forgiving Amber Geiger. I guess maybe because I'm the big sister and I'm the protective one, and it could be part of my survivor's guilt, but I think my relationship with God took priority. My faith reinstalled. My faith to priority before I work on forgiving her.
Speaker 1:You did write quite a bit about that in the book and I wanted to ask you, because in the book you said you want to have a conversation with her. I believe, and I think you have written to her you've tried to correspond. She's kept up a correspondence with, I believe, the congregation where Bootham was a member in Cersei, arkansas, right, and I think she's corresponded with Brent. I think you mentioned that but she hasn't responded to you. So if you were able to have that conversation with her that you've hoped to have and wanted to have, what do you imagine that would be like?
Speaker 3:For me it would be. I have questions To me. Her rehearsed account of what happened that night doesn't add up. I say rehearsed because to me it was clearly rehearsed. There was a statement that was written for her practiced and she recited it. So I still have questions. Did he say anything? You know what were his last words? Was he scared? Did he look into his eyes? I guess there are questions coming from a big sister. What does it do for me? Nothing really, but it's I just have. I have questions. I think that was the hardest part for me just wondering, wondering if he was scared, and you know he was going through all of this alone. That haunted me for a while. So yeah, I mean she was. It's only two people were in the room. One is dead. So with the living person I have questions.
Speaker 1:You one of the things I noticed. I went back and I read the stories that the Christian Chronicle published, all from September 2018 to to the present, and there was a story that the Christian Chronicle published about her about Amber Geiger sentencing and then I looked at the comments and I thought it was interesting Christian Chronicle readers who commented on the story. There was some tension there because there were those that you know said well, we're Christians and we're supposed to forgive, right, and so we shouldn't want a harsh sentence. And then there were others that took the attack, that used the word accountable right, I used the word justice. There were other people that talked about accountability and justice, and so there was an agreement among our readers about what happened there.
Speaker 1:But what I took from all that you wrote about forgiveness is that forgiveness can be a very hard thing. It's easier said than done. Yes, and in many ways, I think we as Christians act like it can be a snap of the fingers in a mental decision. I've decided to forgive where I feel like it can be a really difficult, long process that takes a long time, and you don't know how you're going to work through it, and so that's why you know, as you've written so much about forgiveness, what your brother did and how you continue to struggle, I feel like you're in that you are still locked in that struggle of figuring out how does forgiveness actually work and how do I do it and how do I get there. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And so you're on a journey that I think a lot of people avoid taking, and that's why I want I want to hear as much about that journey as we can, because you're blazing a trail for some listeners that have lesser things to forgive but haven't figured out process.
Speaker 3:I think that's. That's the part a lot of people Look at our loss. They compare our loss to their loss. So I've had people tell me you know, I know exactly what you're going through. I lost my sister to cancer or I lost, you know, my, my loved one to you know old age, and so I think they compare it to what they've been through and think that it's on the same level. The way we lost both of them at 26 years old in his apartment eating ice cream, never married, no children, had a game plan for his life, and to, just, you know, be taken from us unjustly, it's traumatic for us.
Speaker 3:It's not expected. It's not expected. You know, if you lose someone to like a car accident, a drowning, it's traumatic. So you have people with just you, know their experiences and expect the same. If you haven't had to forgive someone who murdered your loved one, I prefer you tell me. You know I'm praying for you Rather than you know you. You need to move on, and these are things that.
Speaker 3:I've heard you need to forgive. You will see him again. It's all these things. Yes, I know it, but you're not helping me right now. You know, especially on. You know the anniversaries, the difficult times, his birthdays. Don't tell me, you know he's in a better place. How is that helping me right now? Yeah, especially when, when I was going through the hardest time of my life, where were you? And I say that because you have people and this may ruffle some feathers, but you have people reaching out to the most important and most important things, but you have people reaching out to the murderer and not the family of the victim. Where were you? So it's, it's different for me. Yeah.
Speaker 3:I'm both in sister. I didn't get a letter, but the one responsible got the Christmas letters that you know, the correspondence while I was struggling. So when you say you know forgiveness and you know it's who feels it knows it best, I, like I said I'm I'm. It's a struggle for me, I'm working on it. I'm still because I'm looking at it, as you know, as a big sister, as you know, someone who would take that bullet for her brother 10 times over and to me see no remorse from the one responsible. It's hard. Yeah.
Speaker 3:It's hard and I'm a Christian and I know what I need to do. But just saying it and doing it are two totally different things. It's a daily struggle for me Because I would be the example to my children. That's why I had to work on myself to be the example for them and I would love to show them. You know it's. You know when someone does wrong, you forgive them. But I'm not going to say that I forgive Amber Geiger, just to say it. I want to mean it and I'm not there yet.
Speaker 1:Thank you for sharing that struggle with us through your book and for being honest, and I have to believe that there are other people who are struggling with forgiveness in their own way, and you may in some way be encouraging them by being so forthright with all of us.
Speaker 1:So I want to thank you for that. I so I want to ask you you've touched on a few points that I want to follow up on here and one of the things that really struck me as I was reading the book after your brother's murder, you wrote and I actually copied and pasted and then I lost it, so I may end up paraphrasing and not exactly getting the words right here, I apologize you wrote that you hoped that how he died would change your open minds in this country, in America. You wrote that in America, when black men die at the hands of law enforcement, our kind of collective default reaction is that they must have done something wrong or, if not, it probably happened because they didn't make good choices about what to be doing or where to be doing it. And you say that black Americans and I'll add, black Christians have been trying for generations to tell white Americans and I'll add, white Christians that it doesn't work the wet that way, when you're black and quote, it just doesn't end quote. So when a white law enforcement officer shot your brother on his couch as he ate ice cream and watched TV in his own home, you thought maybe, just maybe, it would start to change minds and get through to those who can't or won't believe their black brothers and sisters. So do you think it has changed anything over the last five years?
Speaker 3:If I'm being honest, I would say no, and I think it's only because a lot of our fellow Christians close their minds to it, you know, out of sight, out of mind. Maybe. That thought came to me on the plane ride from New York to Dallas, just going to make funeral arrangements for my brother, and I thought well, you know, god couldn't have picked a better victim, because I mean both of them. He was a song leader, praise leader, he taught the singles ministry at his church and he was just this, he was a perfect victim. So I really thought like that would be the turning points, that from there on we would see change. Because it is a problem in America.
Speaker 3:A lot of, the majority of victims of police brutality are black and brown. You find a lot of victims who are unjustly killed, no weapon, they weren't doing anything. Look at both them and so many others. I sometimes think it's the color of our skin is being perceived as a weapon and it's scary. It's scary for me because I have I'm raising three black sons in America, but not because I haven't seen much of a difference from then to now.
Speaker 3:It doesn't mean that we cannot all work to what's changed. It takes all of us. I tell anyone that I can. I mean if, even though you're you're not affected by it, you can still be part of the change you can speak to your lawmakers on just because we need laws changed or we need laws implemented. Who would have thought that we needed a law to say that you know you shouldn't have a no knock warrant to just barge into someone's dwelling just because you think there is a threat in there? I mean, we had Breonna Taylor, a mayor lock killed unjustly from no knock warrants, choke holes. Who knew we needed a law to say that we should ban, ban choke holds? But we still have a long way to go and I think it would take all of us as one to really to push forward to have this change implemented.
Speaker 3:If I mean, I don't think we're asking for much, we're just asking to be safe and I I am not anti police. I was raised to respect law enforcement. Both of them, brent myself, our grandmother, she worked in the courthouse and we were around police officers all the time and we were raised to respect them and I still respect them to this day and I raised my kids to respect them and just like you may have a rogue doctor or nurse or teacher. We could also have world police officers, and we do so. It's just these few police officers that are in the force should be removed, so that can be safe you.
Speaker 1:You convicted me personally because I remember yeah, I remember at the time that it happened. Obviously I heard about your, your brother's murder on the news when it happened and I knew I didn't know him, I didn't know anything about him, but my automatic setting was to presume that the police officer had to have been innocent, had to have had a good reason and that the victim had to have done something wrong. And so when I read your book, it convicted me, because there's this presumption of guilt and innocence. Right, the law enforcement officer Must be innocent, there had to be an explanation. And you even wrote in your book about the lengths to which people went to To, to kind of conjure up Something that both of them that you know he had drugs in his apartment, he, you know he had to have done something wrong that provoked a law enforcement, because law enforcement would never do that.
Speaker 1:And you may, I think in the book about we don't want to live in a country, we, we can't bear to think that we live in a country where law enforcement Could ever be guilty, right, and so we have to presume guilt and innocence, and that guilt presumption often falls on People of color. And I think one of the lines in your book that really grabbed me and I'm gonna read it to you quote. For a black man, the scariest idea isn't even that he will be shot down by a police officer, even if he is innocent. The scariest thing he can imagine is that he will be shot down and his innocence will never be discovered.
Speaker 3:In Talk about that line, so with a lot of police brutality victims, we see we see a lot of Victim bashing From day one and I started seeing it with both of them. I would In the beginning I would get on social media and I felt like I needed to defend my brother Because you had a lot of people coming to conclusions, you know, like you said with Well, he probably did this and he probably did that, and because you know the police officer could never be wrong. But people need to understand the police officer is like any other profession. They're also human and, like us, they can also make mistakes. But I've seen With other victims, like right before both them, there was Antoine Rose in Pittsburgh and it it happened to him to the point where the police officer was acquitted Because even in the courtroom it was all about the bad of Antoine Rose and not Antoine Rose the victim.
Speaker 3:Hmm and that was one of my fears, that this would happen to both them. So of course, I mean I felt again big sister to the rescue. I felt like I needed to be on there and Defend my brother at every moment Because I didn't want that to happen to him. And they, I mean they tried and when I say it tried is it's the cover-up from internal, it's cover-up from I mean they put out a search warrant for marijuana in his apartment on the day of his memorial service. So it's, it's a constant struggle and I think that's that's the part that people don't see as well. You get the phone call telling you that your loved one was murdered and immediately, because of the circumstances surrounding His murder, you have to go into fight mode. Hmm.
Speaker 3:There's no time to grieve. You have to One. There's the media, because if it's a high-profile case, the media is surrounding you. You have to do interviews, you have to meet with the DA and you also have to defend your loved one to the DA. Hmm.
Speaker 3:You have to make them actually want to defend the victim. And it's I mean, it's it's a constant struggle and you go through the grand jury hearing, you go through the trial, you go through all of these things, you go through appeals. So it's like, with every milestone, it's like your grief is being delayed over and over and over Because you have to. You feel like you have to constantly defend your loved one, even though they're the victim. So I think I mean with myself, that's why I didn't get to really process then, to Come down from all of this till 2021, even though what happened in 2018.
Speaker 3:Yeah there was no time to grieve.
Speaker 1:Hmm, I think one of the most important lines you wrote in your book Is become maybe a mission statement of sorts, for you quote we live in a world where tragedies like these happen every day and no one feels the need to fix the problem, but the victims are expected to just go on with their lives. Well, I won't do that. I'm going to feel this pain and I'm going to figure out a way to make you feel it with me, and We'll feel it every day until a change is made in quote talk about that.
Speaker 3:I Mean it speaks for itself, I, with my pain. It feels me, it feels me to do something, to do more, to speak up before this I, I wouldn't say I would I.
Speaker 3:Think I am a bird, but I I find myself speaking up more. I work in corporate America and it's predominantly white, and I remember, in 2020, with the George Floyd Incidents, the George Floyd murder and the protests, I Was in a meeting and you had these executives talking about. You know, oh, why are they? Why are they doing this and all the property? And you know they were, you know, angry about the property being destroyed and the. It was the first time that I actually stood up and said, okay, what about the victim? And I think that was that was the turning point for me. What about the victim, what about his family? And I, even the same company I worked for with when both of them was killed. I find I found myself having to Keep my feelings in check to make others more comfortable hmm, and that's thought I Every day.
Speaker 3:I want to do something to was change. Every day. I, if it's, you know, even it could be something smaller, as a social media post, or Calling your, the local senator, calling a city council member, or writing a letter, or something. I Think every day we need to do something, something I told others I you're voting, make your vote counts. We have some people saying, well, I don't like the candidates and you know, so I'm just not gonna vote. No, do something, speak up and we elect officials all the time and they work for us. So they should take your phone call, they should read your letter and you tell them how you feel we're looking right now. We're asking for police reform. It's crucial.
Speaker 3:I advocated for the Justice and Policing Act. That was killed in the Senate and I'm still Advocating for it because I don't believe that we live in a country where our rights are don't matter. This can't be. So, yes, I will continue to advocate. I will continue to do something every single day, because at home, I have three reminders Jaden, jareem and Jordan that I want to be safe For me. It got to a point where I was afraid to send my kids to the park and I don't, I don't want to be, I don't want to live like that. I Want them to be safe.
Speaker 3:Hmm and we have a lot going on. There's gun violence. There's so much going on in this world. I don't think the law enforcement should be one of our concerns.
Speaker 1:What? What do you think would be the most important change that people could help you make now? I?
Speaker 3:Think the most important change should be decertification. Desertification of officers is if an officer is fired from a police force, they should be decertified so that they cannot go to a neighboring county or another state and get hired again as a police officer. If a police officer is fired, they're fired for a reason and that should not be ignored. At the neighboring county a lot of victims Terrence Crutcher, breonna Taylor, george Floyd, even both them, the officer already had Incidents on their reports. So I don't think an officer who is fired or Reprimanded for excessive force should be allowed to stay on the force or allowed to get a job elsewhere. So I think decertification of police officers should be top on the list.
Speaker 1:How, um how might we do that? Is that a federal? Would that be a federal thing? A State by state thing? A local thing?
Speaker 3:it could, we could start off as state by state, as local. It is part of the justice and policing act, but again, that would that would have been federal, but it's still on pause. But so while we're waiting on the federal, I see no reason why we cannot approach it state by state. But definitely, decertification of officers. I think that would be able to let other officers who are who remain on the force, breathe a sigh of relief, because you find a lot of officers and I speak to officers that they're probably afraid to speak up against a fellow officer, and I understand that, because this is the person who who has your back in the crime scene. So I get it. Um, so how about we help out these officers? By making it impossible for the bad ones to come back into the force.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what, uh? What gives you hope right now?
Speaker 3:Uh, what gives me hope? Um, that's a good question, I think. Just I'm hoping we we get to pass the right laws, we get to have policies in place that will be that would make America safe for all of us, not some of us. Um, I think that's all. I, that's all. I ask just equal rights for all. Just have us all safe. Um, because if you're not safe at home, then where can you be safe?
Speaker 1:Amen, where can people go to learn more about um Decertification or how they could I don't know Uh write a congressperson or Uh get involved in something like that?
Speaker 3:There are so many outlets, um that you could use. I know color of change is one um. They are big on helping persons you know. Write letters to have it sent to their local congress person senators Um. Next year it's a crucial election period, um. So I think now is the time that you get familiar with all the new candidates Um and make the right, right decision. I'm one that I I think I Prefer to vote the candidates and that party um Because you need to know what that person stands for. You need to know if that person, um Is working for you or working in your best interests, Um. So I think right now it's it's the best time to get to know all the candidates know and ask them the hard questions, because once they take office, they're supposed to be working for you.
Speaker 1:Well, she is a lisa charles finley, older sister of botham jon, founder and president of the botham jon foundation and author of the book after botham Healing for my brother's murder by a police officer. You'll find links to all of the above in the show notes. I have to tell you the book is one of the most compelling that I've ever read. It is a difficult and emotional read. Because of what it is about that, I highly recommend it. Alisa is amazing at capturing and conveying all of the messiness of grief, so check it out. Alisa. Thank you for opening up and sharing so much with us today. May you and your family find yourselves close to jesus who weeps, and may he work through you to show us all the way To both justice and mercy.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much, thank you.
Speaker 1:It's been a pleasure having you. We pray that god Bless you through what you heard today. If you received that blessing and you want to pass it on, please pray for this ministry and do a few things subscribe to this podcast and then share it with a friend, recommend and review it on whatever podcast service you use, and send us comments, ideas and suggestions at podcast at christiankronicalorg. And if you feel fuller and richer and wiser because of something you heard today, please pay it forward. Make a tax deductible gift to the christian chronicle. Just click on the link in the show notes or go to christian chronicleorg slash donate to make your gift now. Until next time, may grace and peace be yours in abundance.
Speaker 2:The christian chronicle podcast is a production of the christian chronicle incorporated in forming an inspiring church of christ congregations and members around the world since 1943. The christian chronicles associate editor is audrey jackson, editor in chief bobby ross jr, and president and ceo Eric trigistad. The christian chronicle podcast is produced, written, directed and hosted by bt urwin and is recorded in the christian chronicle, produced by bt urwin and is recorded, edited and engineered by james flanagan at podcast your voice studios in southfield, michigan, detroit, usa.