Welcome to the Christian Chronicle Podcast. We are bringing you the story shaping Church of Christ congregations and members around the world. Here is our host, BT Irwin.
BT Irwin:Family and friends, neighbors and, most of all, strangers. Welcome to the Christian Chronicle Podcast. May what you are about to hear bless you and honor God. And what you are about to hear bless you and honor god. And what you are about to hear is me with a head cold, so I hope you'll pardon the sniffling and the nasally sounds that come out of my head on this episode. You will want to stick around and hear this one because it follows up our all-time most listened to episode of this show. It's not even close.
BT Irwin:That was episode 39 from last October 2023, and it featured our guest today, rubel Shelley, talking about his book Male and Female God Created them, a biblical review of LGBTQ plus claims. He told us then that he wrote that 434 page piece of biblical scholarship with biblical scholars in mind. Take it from a guy who read the book while I was in grad school. It is graduate level reading. At the time that Rubel recorded episode 39, however, he told us that he had another book in the works, a much shorter, much simpler version of Male and Female God Created them, a book for folks without letters after their names parents, students, youth volunteers, for example. That book is the Ink is Dry, god's Distinctive Word on Marriage, family and Sexual Responsibility. It's available now from College Press.
BT Irwin:Back now to talk about his new book is Dr Rubel Shelley, who is as well-known in our Church of Christ community as anyone can be. He has degrees and advanced degrees from Harding University, harding School of Theology and Vanderbilt University. He's written more books than I've written Christmas cards in my life. He ministered for many years at Woodmont Hills Church of Christ in Nashville, tennessee, taught for many years at Freed Hardeman University, lipscomb University, tennessee State University, vanderbilt University and what is now Rochester Christian University, where he was also president from 2009 to 2013. He's been active in community ministry and meeting basic human needs in Middle Tennessee for longer than I've been alive, and he can now add that he is one of only a select group of repeat guests on this show. Rubel, welcome back.
Rubel Shelly:Thanks, bt, good to be with you again. Honored to be asked back, in fact.
BT Irwin:Well, I know a lot of people are going to be glad to hear from you because the first time you recorded with us in October 2023, as I mentioned in the open that was the most listened to episode we've ever done. So we know that what you have to say, people want to listen and consider it and I know they're grateful that you're making more time to follow up with that first conversation. So, between the two books that you wrote 600 pages, something like 600 pages that you wrote on what you believe the Bible reveals about whether same-sex marriage and relationships have any place in God's design and intent for God's creation, here at the top of the conversation do you think you could distill those 600 pages down into an argument that fits in a communion cover?
Rubel Shelly:Oh, I think so, but let me begin by saying there's more to be said on the subject than the 600 pages. It's an important topic, not because the Bible spends a huge percentage of its space on the subject matter, but because in every generation there is a topic that I think we have to go to Scripture if we are Christians and say, hmm, what is said in Scripture about that? No, this is not the primary subject of Scripture. This is not the primary theme of Scripture. The theme of Scripture is the redemption of sinful humanity through the activity of Jesus. But it is an important subject and it is a part of Orthodox discipleship. So, yeah, can I put it into a communion cup? Yeah, discipleship.
Rubel Shelly:The issue really is not sex, it's discipleship. If we were going to talk about drug and alcohol addiction, if we were going to talk about poverty, if we were going to talk about the church's obligation to people who are marginalized because of racial inequities in this country or others, the word still would be discipleship. Discipleship, because the issue for those who have come to God through Christ is how serious is the coming? Do you come simply to be relieved of guilt or to get your ticket punched so that you can have some degree of confidence you're going to heaven or do you come to be a disciple? And to be a disciple is to be under discipline. Do you come with the belief that Jesus did not come into the world to show us how to be gods or how to become gods? He came to show us what a life would look like if we lived it as fully human beings, people in the image of God, bearing his image into God's beautiful and wonderful creation. So, yeah, in a word, the issue is discipleship and, with regard to my sexuality, the world's sexuality, most specifically, per one of the key points of emphasis in both these books. For those of us who say we follow Christ, the question is do I put myself under the discipline of Christ to be his disciple, to live a life of chastity and purity if I am not married? Or, if I am married, to live a life of fidelity to my partner, taking into it a third partner, my partner taking into it a third partner, not breaking covenant promise? Yeah, in a word, discipleship. And that's a point that in a few conversations that I've had with people why do you want to talk about sex so much? I don't. I want to talk about Jesus and I want to talk about following Jesus. Jesus and to be his disciple means, in this culture where the erosion of and the abandonment of a Christian sexual ethic has swamped the boats of so many individuals and now swamping the boats of not just this congregation or that, but whole denominations, as witness, for example, what's been going on in the United Methodist Church. The question is do we take discipleship seriously? And if we do, there is a sexual norm that is articulated Hebrews 13, 4, which is a key verse in the book that you and I are here to discuss.
Rubel Shelly:The ink is dry is not a proof text. It comes late in the canon. I think it's a summary text of what the canon has said from Genesis all the way through Let marriage be held in honor by everyone and let the marriage bed be undefiled, but God will judge fornicators and adulterers. There's the positive thesis Marriage is to be honored. That's God's will for the primary human relationship and the only human relationship within which our sexuality shows itself in sexual intercourse, many times, not always with the birth of children and their nurturing, many times, not always with the birth of children and their nurturing. And then there's the negative thesis and, by the way he says, fornicators, people who don't honor the will of God with regard to their sexual chastity, and adulterers, people who are married and who don't keep their vows, who become covenant breakers. God will not wink at that. He takes that seriously. He will hold them accountable. He will judge.
BT Irwin:Well, we're going to dig into that a little more, but before we do I just want to ask. The two books have been out now for not quite a year.
BT Irwin:Ink is Dry came out maybe eight or nine months before we recorded this and Male and Female, god Created them was a little over a year ago is dry, came out maybe eight or nine months before this. Yeah, and male and female uh, god created them was a little over a year ago. Tell us about the reaction or response that you're getting from putting those books out there. Uh, what has surprised you about how folks are receiving and using these books?
Rubel Shelly:yeah, well, first, maybe bt, I ought to tell you why I wrote two books. The first one, which is over 400 pages, it was written to be a resource book. Not everybody likes libraries as much as I do. Not everybody wants to go and spend as much time working with original language stuff as I'm willing to and study history. So that book was written not with the expectation that's going to be an everyman's book. It's thick, it's got lots of footnotes.
Rubel Shelly:My wife was always my first reader. She was always my editor. She was always the one who'd catch the misspelled words, catch the subject verb disagreement, catch whatever. And she was always helpful, especially about the tone of it Be careful of the tone, yeah, be clear, but don't be too sharp, et cetera. Myra died just as that book was being finished. We'd been married 60 years. She died of cancer, after a three-year struggle against what the oncologist called a sneaky and aggressive cancer, and she knew she was dying.
Rubel Shelly:We talked about the book and she said I'm really glad the book is almost ready to be released. It was practically finished. We had not selected a cover, hadn't done indexes. She said but I want to ask you to do something now. And I said well, babe, what she said, I want you to write a version of it for people like me. What she said, I want you to write a version of it for people like me. I said what does that mean? She said, well, that book is awfully thick and it has just tons of footnotes and people like you who like to go to school and like to wait around in footnotes, they're going to really appreciate the fact that you did that book. And then she held her fingers up and sort of squeezed them down and she said I need you to write one. A little fingers up and sort of squeezed them down and she said I need you to write one a little bit thinner and with fewer footnotes for people like me. Well, I laughed at her and I said hey, I get your point. You're as smart as I am, but I get your point and I'm going to work on it. And so I did.
Rubel Shelly:The second book, the Ink is Dry, is not just a Reader's Digest condensed version of the big book. It's not that at all. It's written in a different format, more narrative format. Both books have been well received by their audiences of Christ but from people in any number of settings Baptists, methodists who have not gone with the United Methodists, who are looking for resource material Pentecostals, others who are still conservative and who take the Bible seriously. And yet that second book is the one whose sales, as I understand it I don't know sales numbers on either of them, but I understand the second book is getting quite a bit of traction because it's being used in class groups.
Rubel Shelly:It's being used with small groups that are, you know, they're opting out for six weeks or a quarter from maybe what church is doing to say we have a couple of families dealing with this issue.
Rubel Shelly:So here's a book that's written at a level we can discuss and it might be helpful. And I would add too, college Press, publisher of both those books, has been very generous to the Harpeth Hills Church, where I'm a member, in Nashville in Brentwood specifically, and they allowed us to do a series of six short videos that echo the six chapter movements of the Ink is Dry and they are on the College Press website, they're on the Harpeth Hills Church website and they're free. So anybody who wants not to hear me read the book. It's not that it takes those six moves of the six chapters and I try to give a little bit of supplemental material and some discussion questions at the end. So both books have been well-received. This one, I'm very pleased, is being used in local churches and is being used in classes, small groups, and the videos are sort of a lead into them. So even somebody who doesn't want to buy a book can go and see the video for free and feel free to use it in any way you want to.
BT Irwin:We'll put a link to those videos.
Rubel Shelly:Oh yeah, that would be good.
BT Irwin:Put that on your website. So one of the starting points for this project of yours seems to be several Christ-professing, christ-pursuing scholars who, in recent years, set out to prove that biblical prohibitions against same-sex relationships are contextual only, that is, they apply to back then and there and not to here and now. In particular, some of those scholars claim that the minds that imagined biblical books like Leviticus, romans, corinthians, timothy or Jude could not imagine that two people of the same sex could come together in a lifelong loving union of equals, because no such thing existed in the places or times that gave us our Old or New Testament. So they imply that if the biblical writers were alive and writing today, they'd see examples of same-sex relationships that are as life-giving and loving as traditional marriage between a man and woman. And those biblical writers would not prohibit same-sex relationships. They might even encourage it. You go to great lengths to dismantle this particular argument. Would you care to dismantle it again here?
Rubel Shelly:Yeah, that argument has confused and misled so many people. How many people know a lot of ancient history? How many people have read Plato? How many people have read Thucydides? How many people have you know?
Rubel Shelly:And so, if they hear someone, in fact, the first time that argument BT was ever presented to me, I was living in Michigan and a student came to me before this was the hot controversy it is now, and said you know, I've learned that those statements in the Bible were to people in situations that are just at all not at all like what we're talking about today. They had to do with anal rape at the end of a warfare. The defeated soldiers, you know, were humiliated by being raped. Or they had to do with brothels and prostitution. And I said well, where did you learn that? He said, well, my professor said that in class. Well, my professor said that in class. And I said well, I've studied a bit of ancient history too and did my work in Plato in graduate school. Have you ever heard of the symposium? And we talked about that, and it is a discussion of Eros, of the passion of love, and two of the people in that discussion are people who have been married for over 30 years. Cicero talks about his plan to attend a wedding the next day and the fact that this is becoming so commonplace that he expects them soon to be recorded in the annals, just like male-female marriages and, by the way, in antiquity only those of the elite usually the emperor and his court and senators and so on would have been recorded. In a culture like that they just didn't have the computerized system of tracking marriages that we do. In the previous one interview that we did, I talked a little bit about Plato and the Symposium. I'm not going to go back and rehash that. People can go back to that interview and get details. Let me take another illustration. Recently Netflix did a program on Alexander the Great and in the opening session or the opening episode of that particular Netflix drama, something of a same-sex relationship between Alexander and one of his generals is at first implied and then fairly explicit. There's a kiss and some indication of lovemaking and it's not as dominant in later episodes but it's undercurrent. And again some people said, wait a minute, that sort of thing just wasn't a part of antiquity. And well, there was a professor, lloyd de Wellen Jones, at Cardiff University in Wales, who said look and I'm quoting him now.
Rubel Shelly:Same-sex relationships were quite the norm throughout the Greek world and the Greeks didn't have a word for homosexuality. They didn't have a word that spoke of being gay. That just wasn't in their vocabularies. There was simply being sexual. That just wasn't in their vocabularies. There was simply being sexual. And that's the point that I think a lot of people who don't know Greek philosophy or Greek history and Roman philosophy and history don't get.
Rubel Shelly:In the ancient world, sexuality was focused on beauty more than it was focused on gender, and a number of the gladiators in the Roman era became sexual targets, sexual objects, sexual partners to males, because they were just so strapping, they were so strong, their muscles bulged and they were athletic. So it is not correct that the biblical prohibitions, denunciations of same-sex activity, were of something unrelated to what we are talking about in this culture. Yes, those prohibitions would have included same-sex prostitution. They would have included the humiliation of soldiers by raping them after defeating them in a battle. That did happen, but one of the more notable ones that people in fact, if you want to go to Amazon or your bookstore and read a book the Sacred Band a theologian didn't write that, a historian wrote it. Scholars debate, but a lot of us think that the idea of the sacred band was taken by a general Gorgitis, from Plato's symposium. Plato said you know, if you had warriors, male warriors, who were also lovers, oh, they would fight with passion because they would never want to be humiliated. Partnered with their lover on the battlefield, they would not turn and run, they would always protect their lover. A little bit of history here.
Rubel Shelly:In ancient Greece, I think some of us have the idea. Well, greece was sort of like the United States and Athens and Corinth and Thebes and Sparta. They were major cities or maybe even states in Greece. No, it wasn't that way. Greece as a geographical area, corinth, thebes, athens, sparta they were city-states and there was always tension among them. They were always fighting each other and Thebes felt itself under particular duress from Sparta. You know, the Spartans were always looking to fight somebody and around I don't know 390, 388, 386, they were making threatening moves against Thebes and a general Gorgidas and again, scholars debate this was it because he saw the hint in Plato's Symposium.
Rubel Shelly:He formed a fighting band, sort of like Navy SEALs or Army Rangers, an elite band of fighters, 300 fighters who were in fact 100 pairs of lovers. These weren't prostitutes. These were men in a committed, covenanted, long-term, same-sex relationship, same sort of thing that in our culture some are saying oh, that didn't exist in antiquity. Oh, yes, it did. And so they became an elite fighting band and they beat the Spartans off not once but twice, and they were undefeated until Philip of Macedon, father of Alexander the Great, eventually defeated them and essentially wiped them out. But they fought so bravely and had such a reputation as a fighting force that Philip, on the very battlefield where they were finally defeated, erected a monument to their valor and to their prowess in fighting. And some scholars again, recent scholars, that's, you know, third century BC have said well, we're not even sure that's historically correct. The mass grave where that monument is erected to their honor has been unearthed, and any number of the corpses buried in that mass grave are intertwined, with their arms around each other or with their arms interlocked. I mean, as lovers. They were buried with their lovers. So, yeah, you're correct.
Rubel Shelly:One of the commonest rejoinders to the biblical material which is so explicit, so clear, is yeah, but that's talking about something very different from what we're talking about. We're talking about respect, we're talking about love, we're talking about long-term commitment. We're not talking about one-night stands, we're not talking about San Francisco bathhouses from the 60s and 70s, and so what we're talking about today is altogether different. No, it isn't, it is a variant. Just as in the ancient culture there were variations male female, female, female, male, male lovemaking.
Rubel Shelly:They knew exactly the sort of thing that we have in this culture and those are included in the statements in the Bible as to what is outside the will of God or what is in the Old Testament, toiva. It is an abomination to God, detestable to God and his holiness and, interestingly, those very same issues that in Leviticus 17 and 18 are named as being a part of the unique holiness of Israel that set them apart from other nations. They refused to worship idols, they did not eat blood, they would not eat animals that were strangled, they would not participate in incest, same-sex intercourse, bestiality. If you read Acts 15, where they discussed accepting the Gentiles, they said of course, today, god wants Israel to be non-ethnic and it to be a faith-based community. And if you read the little short letter in 1529, what are the four things that they said?
Rubel Shelly:Okay, they don't have to be circumcised. They don't have to eat kosher food. They don't have to become Jewish, to be Christians, but they do have to do this. They can't sacrifice to idols, they can't eat blood, they can't eat animals that have been strangled we'd say roadkill, that you haven't properly bled and they cannot participate in porneia and porneia is the Greek word. That includes all of this incest, same-sex, intercourse, bestiality. God is the same yesterday, today and forever in his holiness. God is the same yesterday, today and forever in his holiness.
BT Irwin:And the very prohibitions of the holiness code are the things specifically, in summary fashion, specified in the letter that goes to the Gentiles in Acts 15. Response to what some more what you call revisionist scholars have said is is that jesus, paul and peter were aware of committed same-sex relationships in their place in time, that this was not a foreign idea to them not at all, because it was in the culture. So, um, this next question is going to take a minute to set up, so bear with me. Sure, excuse me. In the book you cited perhaps one of the most compelling arguments that I found in support of Christian same-sex relationships, and that argument comes from Luke Timothy Johnson who is one of the premier biblical scholars of our age and I guarantee anyone who has ever had to write a paper for a college or graduate Bible class has cited Johnson at least once.
BT Irwin:He's as widely respected and trusted as a biblical scholar can be. You cited him in your book because he agrees with your argument, that is, johnson says, right along with you, that the biblical ink is dry, that to try to make the Bible sanction and sanctify same-sex relationships is to misrepresent and misuse the biblical text. In short, the Bible says what it says against same-sex behavior and relationships. The ink is dry. Nevertheless, johnson believes that God does not exclude same-sex couples from the kingdom and shalom of God. In the same article that you cited, if you read the entire article, he goes on to make a strong case for it.
BT Irwin:The heart of that argument is that God is always creating new things that people don't expect, always turning impossibilities into possibilities. Christianity itself, he says, is a radical and unexpected reinterpretation of what our ancient Jewish ancestors thought they knew about God and Holy Scripture. Therefore, johnson concludes that God is not bound or confined by our narrow understanding of Scripture. Insofar as God is acting in God's character and nature, which is love, god may choose to do a new thing that reinterprets or supersedes the old. I think you've actually had conversations about this with Luke Timothy Johnson.
BT Irwin:He brought this up in the first interview. How do you counter his argument?
Rubel Shelly:Well, first let me repeat what you said. There are any number of people who take a position contrary to mine. They're not stupid. One of the reasons that I wrote both of these books is because, as a conservative Christian, bible-believing Christian, I was dismayed by the tone with which some attempted to answer these revisionists. It was condescending, it was hateful, it was, in my view, it was demeaning. I see no reason to be demeaning and hateful. I mean, there's been enough of that in religion. There's far too much of that right now in the culture around politics. So to Johnson.
Rubel Shelly:His argument, basically, is that and I just mentioned Acts 15, where, after Paul's first missionary journey, there is really confusion over whether or not he did a right thing or a bad thing by taking this gospel which, for what? Six, eight, maybe as many as 10 years it had been focused in and around Jerusalem. It was Jesus, some were arguing, some were still rejecting. He's the Jewish Messiah. Paul has overstepped the bounds and he's sharing this with Gentiles and he's not circumcising them, he's not telling them they have to be kosher, that they have to be Jewish to become Christian. And so they meet in Acts 15. And this becomes the hub of Luke Johnson's article he says what Acts 15 shows us. In that conference in Jerusalem, the apostles and elders discussing this new thing that Paul sees God to be doing and the church eventually signs off on. He says what this shows is that over time, the church has the right to realize. Disciples have the right to realize. We've been a bit harsh. There may have been justification for it, starting narrowly with the Jews, but look, this is such a wonderful message. Through Christ we see every reason to broaden the horizons. And he said they discovered that they had the right to change. This is his language to change the rules. It no longer has to be Jewish-based, it can now be broader.
Rubel Shelly:That, with all due respect for Luke Johnson, that misrepresents what happens in Acts 15. They do not come together and, out of their experience of some Gentiles being eager to learn about Jesus, decide, oh, we need to realize that God's mercy is wider than we saw when they had that meeting. If you read the earlier part of Acts 15, they go to scripture to read and articulate and say, guys, this is what God has had in mind all along. And so they quote not two or three recent converts who were Greeks and say, how could we exclude them. They quote scripture and they say the fall intent of David was to be rebuilt and people from all races, and Jews, gentiles alike, would be one body in Christ. They didn't revise it based on their experience and what Paul had come back to report. They revised it based on scripture. Now, if Luke Johnson or Richard Hayes or anyone can say, oh, look at these scriptures that anticipate the day when people who are doing a thing that is to Eva will be allowed something that, in his mercy, god is willing to sign off on and say, well, maybe we were too narrow, so it is a totally on its head argument and I'm not the first to point that out. I'm sure to say no, as much as I respect Luke Johnson, he misrepresents Acts 15. They don't come together and say we know scripture says this, but our experience allows us to revise it. They come together and James and Paul point out scripture all along has anticipated the day when this would not be confined to the Jews. It would be for all the time. It would be for all. The time is come and fulfillment is occurring Now. If we can find that about same-sex marriage, or if we can find that about adultery, or if we can find that about any number of other prohibited behaviors, I will change my view. But until then, until we can find that scripture, acts 15, is not at all allowing experience to overshadow and change the way we read scripture. It is a realization that there were things in scripture we were not quite ready to see and I can give an historic parallel to that In my lifetime segregation and integration.
Rubel Shelly:When in the 1960s the civil rights movement began under the tutelage of a Baptist preacher, he was quoting scripture saying all people bear the image of God, not just light-skinned. He was quoting scripture saying that the heart of God embraces male, female, slave, free, jew, gentile. And when he writes that moving letter from the Birmingham jail to the clergy of Birmingham, alabama and the United States of America, he's not arguing wait a minute. The fact that I'm in jail and that I'm being mistreated means you need to read scripture differently. He says guys, scripture has said this and you have let culture lead you away from scripture. Read the text and do what the text says. We haven't solved all those problems but we've made some progress since the 1960s. And again, experience didn't trump Scripture. Scripture had to be read fairly. As long as we stay with Scripture the view of same-sex marriage, adultery, any sort of sexual experience prior to extraneous to marriage is going to be deemed inappropriate, unholy, against God's will. Marriage is honorable. Fornication and adultery still are under God's judgment.
BT Irwin:I suppose somebody probably will want me to follow this up and ask the question. You brought up civil rights, and I can't remember if it was your book. I read Luke Timothy Johnson's article from 2007 that you cited in your book. I read the entire thing, so I don't remember where.
BT Irwin:I saw that In Commonweal Magazine.
BT Irwin:Yeah, in Commonweal Magazine Slavery, slavery. So there were people in the United States, right up until not even a hundred years ago, that would use scripture to justify slavery as sanctioned by God. And then there were people that would use scripture to say that slavery is an evil. I reckon some folks listening to this right now might be thinking about polygamy. So in the Old Testament you had husbands who had multiple wives, or a situation where God said to Peter you know, kill and eat. And Peter said this food isn't kosher. And in the vision, the voice said what God has made clean, don't call unclean. So for all those folks who are probably listening to what you're saying right now, they're thinking those instances how would you respond to their questions?
Rubel Shelly:Yeah, god's people have always lived within cultures that have challenged the holiness of God himself and the holiness that God demands of his people. For example, just take polygamy. Yes, solomon and David were polygamous, against the explicit prohibition of a king in Israel ever multiplying wives. So it's a case here of, okay, israel's royalty imitating the royalty of day and time, where part of your wealth, part of your power, part of your prestige is not just that you live in a palace and that you have lots of gold and silver goblets, but you have a lot of women at your beck and call. Now, was that right? No, it was being done in explicit violation of God's will and in all of the cases, even in the case of folks who were not, for example, royalty and violating explicit prohibitions given to Israel's kings, there are not cases where this works out well, whether it's Sarah and Hagar or whether it's, you know, the birth of little Samuel, with his to that point, barren mom being mocked and made fun of. So, yes, there are biblical accounts of God's people living in cultures where they did lots of to meet Esau, to polygamy, to adulteries and sexual promiscuity. The question is whether or not these were ever done with God's blessing and approval and the answer, it seems to me, from both the holiness code of Leviticus and, clearly, all the New Testament materials. We haven't talked about Romans 1, but we've talked explicitly about just the summary verse in Hebrews 13, 4. God blesses this marriage. Where marriage is defined in Scripture, as it has been across all of human history, is a male-female relationship. God blesses that and says honor it and keep it holy. But fornicators and adulterers, god will judge. So yeah, there are all kinds of I would call them sidesteps that people make make, but they're culture-driven, not scripture-driven.
Rubel Shelly:The situation in our own culture right now is one where and I used this metaphor earlier the culture has swamped the boats of individuals who love to flow with the cultural movement, love to flow with the cultural movement. Same-sex marriage is a little bit passe right now. The big issue right now, bt, is polyamory, and a magazine, ardell and Time magazine, earlier this year I think probably it was in June said you know, polyamory is just the big wave among young people today. Polyamory, if you don't know the term, you just have multiple sexual partners simultaneously, some male and some female, and here are three, four, five people. They're living together and they are equally sexual with one another and primary partner. The issue is still discipleship. The issue still is does culture tell us what we should allow, what we should legalize, what we should bless, or does discipleship mandate that we live to a different standard? And again, in the book that we're talking about, I make a significant point that I think maybe in this election year needs to be made with some degree of stress.
Rubel Shelly:Paul says look, I'm not trying to write laws for the non-Christians and I just accept the fact that non-Christians do not live as disciples and they are not going to follow the ethical and moral norms that we do. Paul says but the issue is I'm not trying to tell the world that they can't change their laws. We already have done that, the courts have done that, legislatures have done that. Yeah, the laws have changed and what I don't regard as marriage is now called marriage under law. Same-sex marriage is equally legitimate for insurance purposes, filing your federal taxes, whatever as male-female marriage.
Rubel Shelly:So Paul says I'm not saying that the world doesn't have those standards. I'm saying what are the standards that God has given to us and do we live by those? If I may read Paul, he says look, I know to the world, there are gods many and lords many, but for us there's one God and only one Lord Jesus Christ. And so he argues, the world just lives by different rules. They're polytheistic, they confess others to be Lord Caesar over Jesus. But he says the question is whether or not and again in a communion cup the word's disciple, whether or not we will be disciples and will live to the honor of our father through imitating Jesus. So Paul says it's just not my business to write the world's laws, and this is again to quote him explicitly. What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will take care of those on the outside. Expel this wicked person from among you. That's 1 Corinthians 5, verse 12.
Rubel Shelly:I'm afraid in this election year people are wanting to say we have to elect candidates who are going to change the laws, candidates who are going to change the laws. First century Christians did not go to the streets and boycott and have political power to write and rewrite the laws. They simply had a holiness obligation to Jesus to live to the norms and standards that he called us to. I think that's what we have to accept. And somebody says well, don't you think it would be better if Christians were writing the laws and if we were in those seats of power? I had a person ask me that the other day and rather naively I said well, probably so.
Rubel Shelly:I want to rethink that when the church was the strongest and the gospel spread the fastest, christians accepted the fact we are at the margins of the culture. We are outsiders to power. The power we invoke is the power of righteousness, predicated on the character of the God we serve, and it was that that attracted Jew and Gentile. In our day, it will attract white and black. It will attract educated and uneducated, wealthy and poor.
Rubel Shelly:Our goal is not to at least as I understand the gospel. Our goal is not to write the civil laws and to become the police agents to non-Christians laws and to become the police agents to non-Christians. Our goal is to be an alternative to the world system, so that the church becomes conscience, perhaps to the world, but more ideally it becomes light in the world's darkness and an alternative community to the world's unrighteousness. Whether that's greed, whether that's sexuality, whether it's narcissistic sort of rolling over other people, as athletes and movie stars and politicians do when they can have power and money and prestige. That's not the Christian goal. The Christian goal is to walk in the footsteps of Jesus and to be willing to be out of step with the culture for the sake of being in step with God.
BT Irwin:I feel like I'm glad you took us there. I feel like congregations may be off balance these days because they're out of practice with the culture, and you bring this up in your book. The culture has changed so quickly over the last 20 or 30 years around, not just drastically, but quickly, that's right, very, very quickly.
BT Irwin:And so some congregations may try to build a moat and a wall around themselves to try to keep themselves insulated from the culture. Some, as you said, may be trying to take control of the culture. And then there are others that you know nobody wants to be called a bigot, nobody wants to be called, you know, hateful. So congregations want to show the grace and love of God, love their neighbors who are LGBTQ plus, and yet they hold fast to God's design for man and woman in marriage. And so could you take us in a practical direction here? A lot of congregational leaders listen to this. They may be trying to figure out how does our congregation exist in this culture? Now, not building walls, you know, but then also not being so porous that anything goes.
Rubel Shelly:Yeah, that's BT, the really rubber meets the road question. And it's really important for church leaders to get clear on this. I use the language we must be radically welcoming, and what I mean by that is do I want a drug addict coming to a church service where I'm going to preach? Do I want a drug addict coming into a class that I'm going to teach? Do I want a drug addict coming to my small group Bible study? My answer is absolutely I do.
Rubel Shelly:And I remember one Sunday at the Ashwood Church we had a drunk walk in in the middle of my sermon and it was obvious he was drunk and sort of facing the audience and slurring his speech. And I asked one of the elders. I said the virgin might want to talk with him a little bit and maybe I can engage him after I finish this. And he did and talked to it. We led that young man to Christ, I mean the. The idea was not let's call the police and have him arrested. The idea was look, we're Christians. Are we startled that someone walks into the middle of one of our worship services drunk? You bet we are. Is it unsettling? Did anybody remember anything? I said in the rest of the sermon? Probably not. But what happened with this young man was he wasn't arrested, he wasn't locked up. He wasn't manhandled by three deacons and thrown out onto the street by the seat of his pants. He was radically welcomed. An elder sat in an office, talked with him kindly and gently, as Virgil did with everyone. He became a Christian, became part of our church. In fact, we used to have 41 12-step groups meeting in our building every week, in that little building.
Rubel Shelly:Wow, Doing a similar thing with people whose issue is gambling or people whose issue is sexuality and let's say it has to do with heterosexual behavior, it's college students or same-sex behavior. Do I want to know that person? Do I want to treat that person respectfully? Do I want to love my neighbor? Yes, Well, how can you be loving if you're telling the person what he's doing is sinful? Well, if you see somebody driving over a cliff, you are not that person's friend. If you say speed up, you're that person's friend. If you say, look so bang your head, hit the brakes, hit the brakes.
Rubel Shelly:It is not unloving and ungodly to continue to plead for what is holy and righteous within the will of God, even if that means you are out of step with the culture. And some people do respond by saying you must be some kind of bigot if you want to tell me I can't shoot up heroin, or I can't drink vodka and walk into your church service, or I can't have a same-sex lover. No, I'm not a bigot, I'm a disciple, I am under the discipline of Christ and I can't tell you that I approve, or lead our church to approve, something that Christ has said is always disapproved in the will of God. So what are church leaders to do? We're to realize that people who are involved in same-sex behavior, they're not our enemies. They are victims of the enemy. The enemy is Satan. They are victims of the enemy. The enemy is Satan. And there are lies and deceptions, there are ruses, there are cultural pressures that are put especially on children, Gender dysphoria, radical onset gender dysphoria, cultural dysphoria. And junior high are being pressed, sometimes even by their teachers, who are using literature written with an agenda, to accept the fact that, well, whether you're a boy or a girl, it is really not certain. Really, yeah, you can pick, because you know gender is fluid and gender is not binary. You're not always a male or a female. You may have a male body, but you may really be a girl. Really, People are not looking to defy the obvious, they're being led to defy the obvious by the agenda that's working in our culture. By the agenda that's working in our culture.
Rubel Shelly:Recent study by Dr Cass in England, where the UK's gender affirming care people dealing with dysphoria dysphoria a listener doesn't know the term is this sense of confusion Am I a female trapped in a male body?
Rubel Shelly:Am I a female trapped in a male body? That kind of thing. She did her research and said look the way the UK, the United Kingdom, is treating children medically and giving them hormone treatments that accommodate their confused sense of gender identity, even through their health service, providing surgeries to physically adapt their bodies. She said this just does not have scientific merit and a number of the countries, like Sweden and Norway and Denmark, where this was begun even before in the UK, they abandoned that sort of treatment and they have radically slowed the sort of affirmation of these gender-bending views of human sexuality. The American Medical Association, Pediatric Medical Association they're still affirming the ideology more than they are affirming the science, I believe. But Dr Cass's study has caused a radical rethink and, of course, a lot of protests in Great Britain, the United Kingdom. More and more doctors need to read some of the research that she did and rethink the ideological practice. It's not science, it's an ideology that's driving that in American culture right now.
BT Irwin:I want to come back to the congregational level here for a minute, and you've been in the Church of Christ your whole life.
BT Irwin:I've been in my whole life and there's a term that I think we like to use. I haven't heard it as much in recent years, but it's tough love and I'm talking about church discipline. So I remember when I was a kid, once in a while our elders would stand up and they would read a statement to the church and my memories of this. Every time it was a man and a woman who were living together outside of marriage and the elders would make a statement that we are withdrawing fellowship from this couple and that was church discipline. So in this day and age, we've talked about the culture, we've talked about congregations. In our culture, I think there's some real confusion among congregations that want to be loving toward their neighbors about when do we withdraw fellowship. Do the elders get up and read a statement about somebody? How long do we let someone stay in our congregation if they're in a same-sex relationship? These are very practical questions I think elders and congregational leaders may be grappling with right now and I wonder if you could give them.
Rubel Shelly:Yeah well, two responses, bt. Number one that's not our first move. Yeah well, two responses, BT. Number one that's not our first move. If you go to Matthew 18, the first move is somebody. Go to these people.
Rubel Shelly:In this culture, a lot of people who live together as partners, whether it's opposite sex or same sex they don't realize they're doing anything wrong. Their parents haven't taught them it's wrong. Public education hasn't taught them it's wrong. Public education hasn't taught them it's wrong. Public policy hasn't taught them it's wrong. So before we, you know, are in their face with the hammer of this fellowship, threatened, I think and I've done this with people Can you tell me something about your relationship and how this relationship formed? What do you understand the Bible to say about this? Oh, does the Bible say something about this? Well, you know, we're supposed to love each other, aren't we? Well, yeah, but here's what the Bible says Well, I don't know. Here's what the Bible says Well, I don't know. So you teach, and I think you teach gently but clearly. And then the text says if, over time, there is no response and the response here would be repentance and change.
Rubel Shelly:I've had couples come to me and some people may be critical of me for this. They've come to me and wanted me to do their wedding and premarital counseling. I find that they're already living together and I say time out and I begin this conversation that I've just talked about. What do you understand the Bible to teach? And, in my experience, more times than not, well, we really know we shouldn't be. I said, well, if I'm going to proceed with this and if I'm going to be involved in your wedding and officiate the wedding, I need to make a request of you and you don't have to answer immediately. We're going to be together in a week, 10 days, whenever our next appointment is for premarital counseling. You need to tell me whether or not you want me to participate in your wedding. The only way I would do that would be and I think this will be good for the two of you and the health of your ongoing relationship you need to live apart until your wedding day Because, within the will of God, marriage is not a pointless piece of paper that you may or may not choose to have hanging on your wall.
Rubel Shelly:Marriage is supposed to be a serious personal commitment. I've had couples look at me and then at each other and begin to cry and to say, oh, we need to do that because and I've had some couples refuse to say, you know, how dare you? Well, I don't officiate those weddings. So the first move is not disfellowship, the first move is oh, what is your relation? That is your relationship. What do you understand the will of God to be about that? Well, I don't. Ok, you teach.
Rubel Shelly:And then if, over a period of time, as in the personal illustration I've given, they just say, well, we're not going to do that, I would step back personally and say, well, you know, I can't proceed and affirm this relationship as you are living it now, because you, you've already overstepped your, your rights in relation to each other's bodies and hearts. And the time would come that, when the resistance becomes not just we're confused, but now we're arrogant and defiant, not only would I not do the wedding, but they should be denied the fellowship of the church. You're right, that doesn't happen very often these days, especially not to wealthy and influential families in the community and in the church. It's just so mean, church. It's just so mean. Well, is it mean or is it biblical to say and for people from the outside to look and see? You know, there are some people who still take the Bible seriously enough that they still teach that sex is not sport, it's not a game to be played by high school and college students. It is a privilege of a holy and sacred relationship called marriage. If people have the right and legally certainly they do in this country personally if they have the right to affirm same-sex marriage, I think I should have the right to say I affirm the sacredness of marriage based on scripture, that sexual relationships, while they're wonderful, exciting, ecstatic in terms of the pleasure they bring to people, it's not sport and it's not a plaything. This is a sacred privilege and it's given to people who covenant before God to live together in holy commitment to one another. I think we still have to embrace a biblical view. I think we still have to embrace a biblical view, not a traditional Southern, white, american view of marriage, but a biblical view that says marriage is the will of God.
Rubel Shelly:With regard to sexuality, the thesis of the book the Ink is Dry. I attempt so hard to make it a positive thesis. There's a positive thesis in the Bible about sexuality. God desires us, has made us to be sexual beings, but he's also provided the right context for the expression of our sexual natures. And that's not in the backseat of Chevrolet, it's in what Hebrews 13 calls the marriage bed and marriage before the bed. It is a covenant before God to live together in fidelity with this woman, this man, opposite sex and gender, and to do that to the glory of God. The culture has been ill-served by single-parent families. The culture has been ill-served by the breakdown of general respect for, especially women, but for sexual boundaries generally. And the next wave is already hitting polyamory. I have documents in my file of at least a couple of states where humans have formally married animals. Well, if everything has to do with personal right and privilege and nobody can tell me what I can or can't do, that may be the cultural norm, but it will never be the biblical norm.
BT Irwin:So last question and what you just said sets it up perfect. Know, my body doesn't belong to me any longer. My life belongs to God and Jesus Christ. But in our congregations, especially today, you brought up alcohol addiction a little while ago. Drug addiction you talked about the 12-step groups that met in your church building. Addiction you talked about the 12 step groups that that met in your church building.
BT Irwin:Uh, people who are in same sex relationships. It's not just sexual intercourse, it is an identity, um, and so you have, uh, you have, people who are transgender. It is an identity and um, and so I don't want to compare addiction to same sex attraction or a same sex relationship, um to. To be an alcoholic is one thing, to choose to live in a same sex relationship as another, but it it gets into your cells, right, it becomes a part of who you are, um, it becomes a part of your desires. And anyone who has been, uh, addicted or in a particular kind of relationship, um, a particular kind of relationship, any kind of relationship it doesn't have to be same sex knows how hard it is to change course. In some ways, it almost feels like violating your own self.
BT Irwin:And so this last question, one of the things that I've struggled with and my friends and I struggled with as we were coming into adulthood, is that a lot of us who were baptized very early, you know, in the church of Christ, we felt like God gave us the rules and then we needed to figure out a way to obey those rules and there wasn't really a sense. We talked about this I remember talking about it where we didn't understand if God had anything to do with changing us. First of all, does God help us before we can help ourselves, because we don't feel like we can help ourselves. So how does God change a person? And then what happens if God takes a really long time to change a person?
BT Irwin:So the first part of the question is really a request for the gospel Is there good news that God does change people? And how does God change people? And then the second part of that question is how might we be patient with one another? I love the 12-step group when you brought that up, because people who are going to 12 steps I know this you can go for many, many. You're never not an alcoholic. If you're in AA, you are always an alcoholic. You may be a recovering alcoholic, but you're always an alcoholic.
Rubel Shelly:And for me, just substitute the word sinner. I'm a sinner, I am always weak, I continue to fail. I think Alcoholics Anonymous is not telling people it's inevitable that you will drink. It's to say you are aware that this is a primary weakness in your life struggle and you can never say, ah, I'm beyond it. Sin is the lifetime struggle. With me, and maybe for some of us, like you and me, who are, you know, church lifers, the sin is the arrogant pride. Well, I've never been drunk or I've never lived that kind of relationship.
Rubel Shelly:I sometimes use diabetes and heart disease rather than alcoholism or same sex to say there are a lot of things about us that we don't choose and they're part of our biological given. And yes, I do believe that there are biological, non-chosen factors that participate in an addict's behavior. I mean, there's good scientific evidence of that, double-blind studies of identical twin, separated birth, etc. Etc. I don't see any point in arguing that there are not some people who, not because they've been coached to it, because they have been culturally pressured to it, but they are naturally drawn to a woman, to a female, a male to another male. Why argue to your blue in the face no, that doesn't happen. Okay, for the sake of the argument, let's say that does happen. Your question is the relevant question. Can it be changed? Well, to the person who's, let's say, diabetic? You didn't choose to be diabetic. Should you do anything about it? Well, if you want to live and be healthy, of course you should do some things medically that are appropriate and we know help. Well, what if it's an issue that has moral implications, like sexuality and same sex relationships, gender dysphoria, trending me to transgender behavior? Well, if I did not believe that God had the power to change that, I think I would. My faith would be even weaker than it is.
Rubel Shelly:As you were asking the question, I flipped my Bible to Romans 8. Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires. Flesh here is not skin, bone and sinews. Flesh is life orientation. If your life is oriented to the flesh, well, why is it oriented that way? Is it because of cultural pressure? Is it because of factors by birth? That I didn't choose Doesn't matter.
Rubel Shelly:Those who are living to the flesh and its desires, then those who are living to the spirit and what the spirit desires and this is the part that I think a lot of people, as I've read it to them, they said oh, I've never seen that. This is Romans 8, verse 7. The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God. It doesn't submit to God's law. And this is the part a lot of us haven't seen I didn't for years Nor can it do so. Those who are in the realm of the flesh can't please God. I think Paul acknowledges here that there are factors at play in human personality, the human mind, human biology, that, yeah, somebody is living in a way that's hostile to God. They're living to the flesh and they're not submitting to God's law. Okay, I got that part. Yeah, I'm breaking the rules. But Paul goes further. He says it can't. Well, if it can't, not only is it not obeying God's law, it can't Can anything change?
Rubel Shelly:Romans 8 is, of course, the great chapter about the difference the presence of the Holy Spirit makes in a human being. And Paul says no, you can't by your willpower, you can't by being shamed into it, you can't just by having somebody tack 10 commandments or 95 theses commandments on a wall. You can't by your willpower fix it, even if you want to. That's God's work. Well, how does God do that? Well, the first thing, paul says he gives an inner dynamic that is beyond your willpower, and that inner dynamic is the Holy Spirit. And Paul expounds that in 1 Corinthians 6, specifically to sex and when he talks about prostitution and porneia Porneia is the broad word which has to do with all sorts of sexual misbehaviors Paul says your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. And so, number one, you now have an internal dynamic and power from God that is stronger than will to help you break the hole that sin has. And number two, you have this within a community which is spirit filled, the church. God's always going to give the spirit to someone who is saved and their body will become a temple of the Holy spirit. But very often our churches are not communities of the Spirit who give people struggling, whether it's with diabetes or same-sex relationships or temptation to adultery. We are too quick at times to judge and to exclude. Probably not with a letter or a statement being read like you talked about, where you just sort of turn the cold shoulder and they get okay. I'm really not welcome here because they know what's going on. God has given two means to overcome the flesh. The Holy Spirit is an internal dynamic and the church is the community of health and recovery.
Rubel Shelly:You mentioned my appreciation for Alcoholics Anonymous 12-step programs. I've said a bazillion times I think AA had to be created because the church had failed so badly. Aa, you don't come in because you're sober down and want to stay sober. You come in because I got a drinking problem and it's about to kill me and I don't know what to do. Okay, we will hold you accountable. We will accept you broken. We will hold you accountable, not affirm you to drink some more, and we will bear with you over time and support you into recovery. Why can't the church adopt a similar policy, radically welcoming not to affirm, though, but to hold you accountable to being a disciple and, within this community, over time, be supportive of you Even when you trip up. Even when you trip up, even when you fall, to help you on this path to sobriety, to chastity, to holiness and whatever issue.
Rubel Shelly:Will people be candid enough to work with us with regard to sexual issues? A lot of churches host 12-step programs for alcohol, and the community understands. Well, they're not there to teach them how to drink, they're there to help them get over it. Well, I think churches can be supportive of people who are dealing with opposite sex or same-sex temptations, how could you not be tempted outside holy sexuality? In this culture, everything is so predominantly sexualized. We must give help to people.
Rubel Shelly:I do a seminar titled Should we Be Talking About Sex at Church, and my first line is always this we'd better they're talking about it everywhere else. And my first line is always this we'd better they're talking about it everywhere else. And what they're saying out there is not, is not holy, they're not calling them to God's vision of sexuality. So, yeah, we'd better talk about sex, not in crude ways, not in ways that embarrass shame, not in ways that that are worldly vocabulary to titillate, but to talk about it in terms of what is a theology of the human body that is biblical and there is one and what is the nature of sexuality as God intended it? The Bible answers that question.
Rubel Shelly:And how supportive is this church of people who embrace and want to live that we should be fully?
Rubel Shelly:How do we treat people who choose to be single so that they, if they choose not to marry and you don't have to marry so that they can still be full-fledged members of the family of God in this church and we don't discount them because they are single, which is that's been a big mistake in our churches. And then, finally, what about people who are living outside the will of God, or have for some time? Is there any hope for them, and how do we support them, for God to heal them from whatever brokenness is in their lives around sexuality? All God's children got brokenness. Not everybody's brokenness is around sexuality, but a lot of the brokenness in this culture is. The church must become the place where we say the Holy Spirit is available from God to strengthen you in your weakness. And we are the community of God and you can be honest with us, you can be transparent with us, we will still love you and we will do everything we can to support your recovery to spiritual health.
BT Irwin:Well, dr Rubel Shelley is author of the Ink Is Dry God's Distinctive Word on Marriage, family and Sexual Responsibility, now available from College Press. There's also a series of videos which are free. We'll put a link to those in the show notes, as well as a link to his first book, male and Female. God Created them. Rubel, thank you for being willing to plunge into the gap on a subject that many or most people would rather avoid or dumb down to the point of doing real harm to people. If anyone has the spiritual gift of being a lightning rod, it's you, so thank you for letting yourself burn bright on this one.
Rubel Shelly:Well, thank you, BT, for letting me be here with you a second time. I wish I could do a better job of this, but I like my way of trying better than other folks' silence about it. So thanks for encouraging the process.
BT Irwin:We all appreciate you. Thank you and God bless. God bless you Well, listener. Thank you for going on a deep dive with us today and for swimming in the currents of a conversation that is only getting started in our congregations around the world. We hope that something you heard in this episode encouraged, enlightened or enriched you in some way. If it did, please pay it forward. Subscribe to this podcast and share it with a friend. Recommend and review this show wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. Your subscription, recommendation and review help us reach more people. Please send your comments, ideas and suggestions to podcast at christianchronicleorg. And don't forget that our ministry to inform and inspire Christians and congregations around the world is a non-profit ministry that relies on the generosity of people like you. So if you like the show and you want to keep it going and make it better, please make a tax-deductible gift to the Christian Chronicle at christianchronicleorg. Slash donate Until next time. May grace and peace be yours in abundance.
Holly Linden:The Christian Chronicle podcast is a production of the Christian Chronicle Inc. Informing and inspiring Church of Christ congregations, members and ministries around the world since 1943. The Christian Chronicle'saging Editor is Audrey Jackson, editor-in-chief Bobby Ross Jr and President and CEO Eric Trigestad. The Christian Chronicle Podcast is written, directed, hosted and edited by BT Irwin and is produced by James Flanagan in Detroit, michigan, usa.