Family and friends, neighbors and, most of all, strangers. Welcome to the Christian Chronicle Podcast. We're bringing you the stories shaping Church of Christ congregations and members around the world. I'm BT Irwin. It is an honor and pleasure to be your host. May what you are about to hear bless you and honor God. Listeners to this show know I live just outside Detroit, michigan, usa. It's always interesting, when we visit some other part of the country, to listen to what people think of Detroit who haven't been here or haven't been here in a long time.
BT Irwin:Detroit is a case study in how cities in the United States are changing these days. Like many US cities in the mid to late 20th century, detroit's inner city fell on hard times as upwardly mobile and well-off white residents left for the suburbs. This enormous disinvestment of political power and wealth left cities like Detroit hollowed out, as things like jobs, services and tax revenue migrated away. Those with the fewest economic and political means could not afford to follow. In many cases those were people of color who were not even close to recovering from decades of legal barriers to education, home ownership and jobs. Despair metastasized in an inner-city economic depression and jobs Despair metastasized in an inner-city economic depression. Churches moved. Too Many suburban congregations started in the city and moved out. When their members moved, those congregations became sources of money and volunteers that they sent back into the city in support of what they called urban ministries that sprung up to serve those struggling with life there. For years my own suburban congregation has supported ministries to the homeless in inner city Detroit, but things have changed in Detroit and many other cities over the last 20 to 30 years.
BT Irwin:Not long ago I had lunch with the pastor of a Presbyterian church in inner city Detroit. He told the story of how, from the 1960s until recent years, that congregation's ministries grew in response to the drug abuse, homelessness, joblessness, mental illness and poverty that characterized its neighborhood. In the last few years, however, things in the neighborhood changed. Today the church is surrounded by new hotels, offices, restaurants and upscale residences. The people the church once served through its ministries are gone from the neighborhood. The neighbors who live around the church now are wealthy, white and young. So are that church's ministries to these newcomers still urban ministries as we have thought about them for generations?
BT Irwin:That phenomenon of changing inner cities and how they affect what we call urban ministry is the subject of a recent guest column that we published in the Christian Chronicle. The author of that column is Dr Steve Cloer, associate Professor of Ministry at Harding School of Theology in Searcy, arkansas, and Director of the Center for Church and City Engagement in Memphis, tennessee. The title of his column is the Changing Face of Urban Ministry. You can read it at the link we put in the show notes, but Dr Cloer is here to talk about it now. Dr Cloer, why is urban ministry a conversation worth having now?
Dr. Steve Cloer:Well, I mean, first and foremost, the world is predominantly urban, and so we need to have this conversation, because that's where our world is Somewhere around the mid 2000s, 2007, 2008, that the world population became more urban than rural. I think it's around 55% right now the world's population is urban, and that number is just going to go up. There's still, I think, one continent Africa is still predominantly rural, but it's quickly becoming more urban, so that number is going to go up. There's still, I think, one continent Africa is still predominantly rural, but it's quickly becoming more urban, so that number is going to go up. Latin America is around 80 percent urban. United States predominantly urban.
Dr. Steve Cloer:So that's the context that we're in is people moving to cities, living in cities, and so I think we need to talk about then what does it look like to do ministry in urban areas? Because that's going to be a little bit different than maybe a rural or even a suburban area of some sorts. Churches of Christ have more of a rural background, and so that's kind of how our movement grew up, and so I think shifting into an urban context is a little bit challenging for our churches in some cases, and so, because of that, I think we need to talk about this. I think we need to have an emphasis. You know, I work at Harding School of Theology. Most of the students from Harding, or the people that are in the school of theology they graduate. They're going to be working in a city, they're going to be moving to Nashville, little Rock or Dallas, fort Worth or someplace like that, and so we have to be thinking about what does ministry look like in an urban area?
BT Irwin:because of that, Our editors gave your Christian Chronicle guest column the headline the Changing Face of Urban Ministry. Tell us about that. What are the trends that are shaping what we in the Church of Christ have been calling urban ministry for the last few generations?
Dr. Steve Cloer:That's a good question. In some ways, urban ministry has been around ever since there's been the gospel in the city, and so you can make an argument that the apostle Paul was doing urban ministry as he went through missionary journeys and traveled to big cities like Athens and Corinth and Ephesus and Antioch, and I mean these were big, ancient cities and they were doing ministry in those cities, and so in some ways urban ministry has always been around.
Dr. Steve Cloer:And in our restoration movement, david Lipscomb was involved in Nashville and doing ministry there. You have the example of EH Imes and the Central Church of Christ, an attempt to plant a church in the downtown area of Nashville that served the poor and those struggling and that had a tremendous impact at that point. But in my lifetime, when I think about urban ministry, I think about an emphasis that started in the 1990s, I would say, when a lot of predominantly white churches of Christ realized that the downtown areas of our cities had become forsaken, neglected in some senses, and that there was a lot of poverty. And so there was an attempt to view the downtown areas, the inner cities, from a missiological lens. And so let's plant churches in the inner cities, let's start ministries in the inner cities, and so we had all these different inner city ministries that started popping up in many different cities around the United States. There was a big effort in Memphis. It was called the Memphis Urban Ministry at the time, but it was happening in other cities, in Little Rock, in Dallas, in Fort Worth, in Denver, in Portland, in Chicago, in St Louis and many other places, and it was around that time that there was a conference that was started to try to provide networking to all of these quote-unquote urban ministries. It's called the National Urban Ministry Conference.
Dr. Steve Cloer:My friend, harold Shank, tells me that when this conference begun, they counted around 90 different ministries in different cities in the United States, which is a lot, and so that I think when we think about urban ministry, particularly in predominantly white churches, that's often what we think about is this attempt to start ministries in kind of the downtown areas. Now I should add to this that predominantly African-American churches and predominantly Hispanic churches have been in existence in the downtown urban core of our cities for many decades, and when a lot of churches moved out, they stayed. So there's a lot of a lot of churches that are probably African-American, who are who've consistently been engaging what we might say quote unquote urban ministry. So that's something of the trend, I think. Now we're seeing a lot of change going on. We call this gentrification in cities to where we're having to kind of rethink what we mean when we use the phrase urban ministry.
BT Irwin:As I read your column I thought about everything I ever assumed or imagined about urban ministry, and I awoke to this realization about myself when I hear the words urban ministry. And I think it's helpful for us to kind of define what that means, because it could mean different things to different people. For me, I picture people of color who are often poor, and when I think of them I don't even think about their location per se. In other words, my mind associates urban ministry more with poor people of color than with the quote-unquote inner city. So I wonder, for Christians who live and look like me and I'm a white guy who lives in the suburbs to what extent does the term urban ministry actually mean urban as in a specific context or place, or does it actually serve as a euphemism for certain groups of people like people of color?
Dr. Steve Cloer:Yeah, that's a good tough question and I understand what you're saying. I think that word urban can mean different things to different people, different things to different people, and that's one of the reasons why at Harding, when we started this Center for Church and City Engagement, we wrestled with, okay, what do we call this center? And we thought about Center for Urban Engagement or Urban Ministry, and we decided to not use the word urban. Instead we used the word city, because we felt like that was more inclusive. The word urban Instead we used the word city, because we felt like that was more inclusive, more comprehensive, and we felt like it also communicated more of what we were trying to do.
Dr. Steve Cloer:I think some churches, when they hear the word urban ministry, they think, oh, that's not something that we do, that's something that some other ministry does or some other church does, and we don't really do that, whereas I think if we're a church in a city, you're engaged in ministry to the city. So, yeah, I think that that word can be problematic. Like you said, it can typically cause us to think about ministering to people who are in poverty or ministering into distressed neighborhoods. I prefer thinking about the word city, which, the way I would define city is three words density, diversity in place, density, diversity in place. So you're in one place that's where there's a lot, of, a lot of people who are a lot of different kinds of people, that we would call that a city. We would call that a city, and if I am, if we're a church in that city and we're going to try to minister to the city, minister to our neighborhood in our city, well, probably you're going to be dealing with poverty. Probably you're going to be dealing with diversity. Probably you're going to be dealing with immigration and refugees. Probably you're going to be dealing with different languages being spoken. Probably you're going to be dealing with different languages being spoken. Probably you're going to be dealing with loneliness and isolation, all the different things that are prevalent within quote unquote urban areas. You're probably going to be dealing with that if you are a church in a city.
Dr. Steve Cloer:And so let's think about what does it mean to engage in city ministry and to be a church for the city? I think that's maybe a more helpful, more inclusive, more comprehensive approach to thinking about this than what we've thought about urban ministry in the past. Now, certainly, there are going to be some churches that are in more of a distressed neighborhood and so they're going to be a lot more focused on addiction recovery or they're going to be a lot more focused on benevolent ministry and things of that nature, and there's going to be some churches that are in a more wealthier location and so their ministries are going to look a little bit different. But the way the city is changing and the city of Memphis is a good example the three most distressed neighborhoods in the city of Memphis at least what I would say three most distressed neighborhoods are outside the I-240 loop, so used to is okay.
Dr. Steve Cloer:Inside the loop is where the urban core is, where the struggles are. Now it's outside the I-240 loop and I think that's what we're seeing in a lot of cities is it's very desirable to live in the downtown area. It may be a pocket in a first ring suburb or someplace like that. That is where there's a lot of distressed and under-resourced areas. So that's why I think just churches in the city need to think about how do we minister to the city.
BT Irwin:So, when you were working through what to call the Center for Church and City Engagement and you were struggling with language language is important because it means something right and you were intentional about not using the word urban but using the word city. My question is urban ministry. It's a term that we've used in the Church of Christ for generations and it means different things to different people, but I wonder, is it still a useful term for us to use now? Do we need new language that reflects a new imagination and understanding of what is happening or needs to happen?
Dr. Steve Cloer:That's a good question too. To be honest, I don't really know. I think the term can still be helpful. You know, barna did some research. I have the book here with me called Inside the Urban Church and I've looked at that research. The way they define urban is they use the way the United States Census uses the word urban, which is they define an area that has 425 housing units per square mile. So that's an urban area. So they're they're focusing on population there, um, just high dense areas, and I I think that might be one way to think about it we're engaging in urban ministry if we're in a high dense populated area, because if I'm in a high dense populated area, I'm going to be dealing with poverty, I'm going to be dealing with, uh, diversity, I'm going to be dealing with all these things. That quote unquote in the past has defined urban ministry. But I don't know. That's a good question.
Dr. Steve Cloer:When I was the preacher at the Southside Church of Christ in just south of downtown fort worth, I really tried to promote the idea that we're a city church, we're here, we're a church for the city, and and I thought that was a more comprehensive, positive way to to view the vision of our, of our church.
Dr. Steve Cloer:I think more churches need to think that way, that we're a church for the city, um, but yeah, in the past, urban ministry has meant often ministry to people in poverty, ministry to people in under-resourced areas, and maybe that phrase can still be a clue to that. We're engaging in urban ministry, but I want to expand it, I want to think bigger, because, as I um, as was mentioned in my article, you can be a church in a first ring suburb and right next door Now you've got uh, housing, subsidized housing, affordable housing. You can be the impact Houston church of Christ, which has has a tremendous track record of ministry to people in poverty, and you go to the Impact Houston Church. Today, right next door are really nice townhomes that young adults and middle to upper class are living in. So we're all dealing with this shifting, changing landscape. So I think maybe a better way to think about it is we're ministering to the city.
BT Irwin:I want to jam on that for a second, because something you said a moment ago got me thinking. You said Barna defines an urban area the same way the US Census Bureau does. Which is what did you say? 425?
Dr. Steve Cloer:425 housing units per square mile.
BT Irwin:Per square mile. So when you think about it that way, like the congregation where I'm a member, in an affluent suburb of of Detroit, there are definitely 425 housing units probably more within the square mile of our, our church building. It's also a very diverse area. I think there are over a hundred languages spoken in the local school district. So density, diversity and place. And yet if I were to go down the pews at my congregation and ask people about our urban ministry work, they would specifically talk about our work with homeless people in Pontiac, michigan, which is about 15 minutes away, and it is a majority, the majority of the people who live in Pontiac are people of color. There's a lot of poverty there and the interesting thing about that is, by Barna's definition and the Census Bureau's definition of what you're saying right here, our congregation is involved in urban ministry right there in its own neighborhood, but people don't think about it that way.
Dr. Steve Cloer:Right, right, and this is what I think more churches need to be thinking about, and so I mentioned in my column a quote from Jim Harbin. Jim Harbin is the president of the National Urban Ministry Association, which puts on the Urban Ministry Conference. Jim planted the Raleigh Community Church of Christ that came out of the Memphis Urban Ministry emphasis back in the 90s 2000s, and he shared that quote with me one time. We were talking about this very dynamic, and he said you know, steve, it really is all urban ministry very dynamic. And he said you know, steve, it really is all urban ministry.
Dr. Steve Cloer:And I think that there's some truth to that, that, yes, you can be in maybe a little more wealthier suburb, but it is an urban area by density definition and you're dealing with some of the elements that come with an urban area, as you mentioned, with different languages being spoken, many different types of people. How do we navigate this? How do we minister to this neighborhood? I would like more churches in cities to start thinking about how do we minister to our neighborhood right where we are. To me, that's the new face of urban ministry.
Dr. Steve Cloer:And, yeah, sure, we're going to partner with other churches to reach certain neighborhoods where maybe they need a few more resources than where we are, or maybe are challenged in certain ways. We're going to still do that. There's still a place for that. But we can't simply think, okay, in our church we're just going to kind of take care of one another and and do kind of urban mission work in another neighborhood. We've got to think, no, we're urban, we're doing urban mission work right here where we are. This is a mission point. Yeah, so how do we reach our neighborhood that is constantly changing, because we're living in a city that's constantly changing constantly changing, because we're living in a city that's constantly changing.
BT Irwin:Yeah, that's where, as I reflected on myself, I thought urban ministry in my imagination is actually a euphemism for ministering to certain kinds of people, regardless of where they are, and yet our congregation is doing urban ministry, by definition, just by what it does in its own community. I have, maybe a unique perspective on this. For most of my career, I've been responsible for managing volunteers who come to work with ministries in what we think of as inner city or urban contexts here in.
BT Irwin:Detroit, where I live. Almost all of those volunteers over the years have been well-off white Christians from the exurbs and suburbs surrounding the city and this is my observation Many, if not most, of them came with an assumption that no ministry is happening in the inner city until they show up. So part of my work has been to reveal to these Christians that they are not coming to a ministry dead zone. In fact, god is present and working. God's people are present and working, and you mentioned a moment ago how many congregations stayed in the neighborhoods that were hollowing out during white flight and they continue to work in those neighborhoods and they continue to minister.
BT Irwin:Um, so I've heard from these locals, uh, that have been partners of mine through the years. Uh, local congregations, local ministries in the neighborhoods, uh, they have skin in the game in their communities. They have all shared with me over the years this experience of Christians coming from the outside who look right through them as if they're not there and they look down on what the actual residents of the neighborhood and the congregations and ministries that are there. They kind of look down on it as primitive or maybe not worth doing. So from this experience of mine, I've grown to wonder what assumptions and motivations are behind so much of what well-off Christians call urban ministry.
Dr. Steve Cloer:That's a really good, complicated question. What immediately comes to my mind is oftentimes in that situation, we think we have resources. This neighborhood or this group or this church doesn't have resources, and so we're coming to bring our resources to you, and so there might be a little bit of a kind of a Messiah complex or a Savior complex, that we have some things that you don't have, and so we're coming to bring those things to you, um, and and and so that's kind of the the, the superiority perspective that we have. I think a healthier way to view that is to think about a reciprocity approach that, yeah, there there might be something that we can offer, but there's something that that you have to offer to us. There's some things that we have to learn, some things that we need to know, some things that we need to hear, some things we need to experience and and so we're yeah, we're coming and we're bringing our volunteer hours or we're bringing some of the resources that we have, but we're also coming because we need to hear some things and experience some things and learn some things, and and so approach approaching things for more of a reciprocity relationship, I think is a much healthier way of thinking about it.
Dr. Steve Cloer:Let me give you one example. So this is a personal example. So when I was living in Fort Worth, texas example so when I was living in Fort Worth, texas, preaching for the Southside Church, my car broke down one day and I thought you know what? My car's in the shop. It's going to be a couple of days before it's fixed. I'm going to ride the public bus system. I'm going to ride the public bus system to work. I'm going to do this for several days.
Dr. Steve Cloer:I'm just going to see what this is like I ride the public bus system and I do that. I get a different perspective. I see things. I learn a lot about waiting and about being patient. The bus doesn't always run on time. Then I have all these spiritual conversations. I had people come up to me asking me biblical questions, spiritual questions, not because I was a minister, maybe just because I was there. I had more spiritual conversations on the bus than I did in the church foyer, and and so I use an example that there were things that I learned when I was placed myself in a in a place, place I'm not normally at.
Dr. Steve Cloer:I think that could be an element here that, okay, we're going to go, we're going to partner with this ministry or this church in a different neighborhood that we're not normally in, that is, a more under-resourced or distressed neighborhood. Oh yeah, there's something that I can offer here, but there's a lot that I can learn here and there's some things that I can experience it. So I think that's a much healthier approach. Is this reciprocity? So moving from kind of a superiority to a level playing field, reciprocity? So that'd be one thought and another thought.
Dr. Steve Cloer:To be honest, I think sometimes we feel if we're in like a suburban wealthier situation, we can feel a little guilt.
Dr. Steve Cloer:I have all this, this stuff and and I've been blessed in so much, so many ways and and, and here's a neighborhood over here that doesn't have that, and so we feel guilty and so we're we're kind of going to to make make ourselves feel a little bit better and and maybe the way to deal with that is to think about maybe maybe we're actually in trouble. We have, we have this wealth and we have these, these, these resources of stuff. I mean Jesus said it's hard for the, for the rich man, into the kingdom. So maybe we're in trouble. Maybe we're actually going to serve in this neighborhood so that we can quote, unquote, save ourselves, so that we can learn more deeply what it means to follow Jesus. So maybe we're going, not necessarily because we think we can help this person, maybe we're going because we think this person can actually help me, because it's hard to enter the kingdom of God as a wealthy person. So I think thinking more like that is a healthier, more faithful approach to engagement ministry.
BT Irwin:One of the problems that the church in the United States has is that we tend to look at everything through the same lens through which our culture looks at things. So we tend to look at things through an economic lens, and I think that can amount to sometimes we believe that because we're well off, that means that we're doing things right. Right, god has blessed us, we're doing things right, and if other people are not well off economically, they're not doing things as right as we are. Therefore, we have more to give and more to teach and less to learn. So in community development work Habitat for Humanity, for example, where I worked for years it's helping everyone understand that God has endowed every community with wealth of different kinds.
BT Irwin:So money is one measure of wealth, but in the kingdom of God we measure wealth in other ways, and so that levels the playing field between an affluent suburban church and a church that's in the inner city. Because we're not looking at economic wealth, we're looking at the variety of blessings that God has given us that we need to share with one another. So certainly, economic wealth is something we have to share, but we almost always see ourselves as having the upper hand and wanting to keep the upper hand. Yeah, and how do we? This could be a question you answer how do we, how do we model and teach in the church of Christ a different economy right and a different way of of measuring wealth and what we have to give and what we have to receive from one another, especially since we rarely come into contact with each other unless we're, you know, putting everybody on a bus to come down and volunteer for a day.
BT Irwin:Right.
Dr. Steve Cloer:Yeah, that's a great question. A couple of thoughts on that. Number one, I think, finding finding opportunities to, to be the guest in, in another person's space or another neighborhood space or another church's space, ministry space, and so we're used to being the host. We're used to, you know, as you said, putting people on buses bringing them to our church and we put on a VBS or whatever. We're used to being the host. Are there ways that we can be a guest? Are the ways that we can be at a church or ministry where we listen, where we observe, where we are served, where we're the guest, where we acknowledge and place ourself in a position of vulnerability, where we're here to listen to what you have to say, because there's something that you have to say that I think I need to hear. I think that's good and I think that's really important. I think it's really important for white people who are maybe living in a, as you mentioned, in a suburb. It's very important for us to put ourselves in places where we're the minority and either economically or racially, and where we listen and we learn. And my kids when we were in Fort Worth they attended an elementary school that was probably Hispanic schools, a low-income Hispanic school at the time and that was a good experience for us. It was a good experience to be a minority and to listen and to notice and observe and to learn, and there were things that we learned. So I think that's one thing to notice and observe and to learn, and there were things that we learned. So I think that's one thing.
Dr. Steve Cloer:I think a second piece, and in my work at Harding and the classes that I teach around mission, one of the questions I encourage my students to ask is what is God doing in the neighborhood or in the city? What is God doing? God is doing something here. God's at work. As you mentioned, it's not a ministry dead zone. God was already working in the heart of Cornelius. God was already working in the heart of the Ethiopian eunuch before Philip showed up or before Peter showed up at Cornelius. God was already working in Lydia's heart before Paul got to Philippi. So God's doing something here and he's working in people's hearts. God's doing something here and he's working in people's hearts, and so what is he?
Dr. Steve Cloer:doing, and so can we have eyes to be attentive, to listen, to be obedient observers, as I like to say. I think that's an important question that we constantly need to be asking, and sure we want to also ask the question what does God want to do here? And so how can we join God in his redemptive work? But we also want to be asking what is God already doing? And so that question can be a really good way to debrief or to approach entering into a neighborhood. That keeps us from feeling like, okay, I'm kind of the one that's the superiority here, I'm the one who kind of knows everything, has the advantage. No, god's the one who knows what is needed, god's the one who's active, it's God's mission, it's not mine. And so what is he doing and how can we join him in that?
BT Irwin:Well, I'm not an anthropologist or sociologist, but from my armchair I think that we in the Church of Christ are at an inflection point in our movement toward God, and I feel like there's some tension that's been building among us for many years and it plays out in our ministries.
BT Irwin:And that tension, I think, is this my generation grew up in the 80s in a Church of Christ that seemed to understand something like urban ministry as a means to an end.
BT Irwin:So a congregation might support urban ministries like feeding people, rehabilitating people, sheltering people as means to getting people into the baptistry and the church of Christ. I think, from my generation forward, though, emerging generations see ministries more as the end in themselves. So, in other words, we don't clothe, feed and shelter people so that we can baptize them into the kingdom of God. We clothe, feed and shelter people because that is the kingdom of God. We clothe, feed and shelter people because that is the kingdom of God, as Jesus demonstrates in his own life. So the measure of our ministries is not how many people we baptize into the church of Christ, it's how many people grow together into a society where the reign and rule of Christ is evident. Do you observe this tension too, and if so, how do you think it will play out as urban ministry, or whatever it becomes called, evolves over the next generation or two?
Dr. Steve Cloer:Well, yes, I observed this tension and I notice it and I appreciate the way you described that. And just in my own life, I've noticed how, when I was much younger, when we would talk about going on a mission trip, it was hey, we're going to set up Bible studies to share the message of Jesus, door knock, things like that. And then later now, when, like my kids go on a mission trip, they're going to do service projects, do acts of mercy and things like that. So it's just interesting the way we've conceived of mission and I do think there is some confusion around that. I've been the Center for Church-City Engagement has been working on a project where we've been going to different cities and doing listening sessions with church leaders and doing listening sessions with church leaders and we're trying to just understand what our urban church leaders are thinking about, wrestling with what are their hopes, dreams, barriers and struggles. Well, one of the themes I've noticed we're still working through the data but one of the things I've noticed is there is confusion around what is the mission of God and what are we as a church needing to be doing. And so we'll hear from a church leader saying, hey, we're doing this really great work of feeding and tutoring kids in schools and things like that, and then you'll always have somebody else, yeah, but we need to be sharing the message with them, you know. And so that tension is there and I think, any time, if you have an urban church, a church in the city that is trying to reach out to its neighborhood, this is going to be a tension that comes up, I think, in terms of, ok, how do we navigate this? Well, first of all, we have to go back to what do we believe the gospel to be and what do we believe God's mission to be and how do we understand that?
Dr. Steve Cloer:And when I look at the ministry of Jesus, I see Jesus when he said he came teaching, preaching and healing. So to me that is a holistic approach. But it was a holistic approach that was intertwined, it was not separate. It was not okay one day I'm going to preach and the other day I'm going to feed. It was he fed the 5,000 as he taught them. It was kind of something that was all intertwined together.
Dr. Steve Cloer:And as you look at an urban neighborhood, a neighborhood in the city, as you look at an urban neighborhood, a neighborhood in the city, you're going to see spiritual, social, physical, relational, emotional issues that are all intertwined. And so you have a single mom who is struggling to find a job and to get out of poverty. Well, part of her issues are social, maybe she's made some bad decisions. Maybe part of her issues are systemic, maybe she's trapped in a system that's hard to break through. But part of her issues are spiritual and having a relationship with God.
Dr. Steve Cloer:And so if we're going to minister to an urban neighborhood, it seems to me that our ministry is going to have to be holistic. That's a way that's intertwined. We're going to have to preach and teach and heal, and so that means, I think, feeding and clothing and ministering to those that are sick, and visiting those in prison, and working for actions of mercy and justice, while at the same time proclaiming the verbal message of Jesus and that you need Jesus in your life and you need to repent and be baptized. To me, it seems that it needs to go together and churches need to find ways, and this is, I think, the challenge. Churches need to find ways to intertwine that. So, if we have a food pantry, how can we couple that with some element of spiritual outreach? It doesn't mean that we're demanding that, in order to get the food that you've got to have a Bible study.
Dr. Steve Cloer:We're not saying that and then all we do is give out food. That is good, that is kingdom work. But can we couple with that an attempt to share the message of Jesus, or to pray with you, or to encourage you to walk towards Jesus? Or if we have a health clinic, can we pray with all the patients? If we're offering clothing, or if we're tutoring kids in the neighborhood school, can we invite them to children's Bible class on Sunday? How can we make this intertwined?
Dr. Steve Cloer:I think there needs to be more thought on that, but I think, as you delve into the urban context, the urban world, there was one writer who described it this way that you know, complicated wickedness. There's complicated wickedness in the world and it's not something that I can just say, oh, this one thing is all you need. It's a myriad. I need complete restoration. I need to be completely reconciled back to God and restored back to him, and I see Jesus doing that. I see Jesus he heals the blind man by the pool of Siloam. That has a holistic effect to where now he can be restored into society, he can get a job, he can be back with his family, he can see as well as he can come to have his sins forgiven, and so we want to have that same sort of approach, in my view, to where we are, where it's holistic, where we care about the holistic person and we're doing it all together in an intertwined format.
BT Irwin:I want to ask you here at the end is if people are listening to this and most of our listeners are in urban centers in large cities and they're listening to this conversation. Maybe they've read the column you wrote for the Christian Chronicle and they want to know how they can get involved. What do you have for them?
Dr. Steve Cloer:Well, I would love for them to be connected with the Center for Church and City Engagement and just to know about what the center is doing, the resources that we're developing. This is a new center. It started in August of this past year and one of the main goals of the center is to support churches and cities. And so you know, if you're, if you work at a church that's in an urban location, we want you to be connected with the Center for Churches and Engagement and, as a part of our work, we're going to be a key sponsor of the National Urban Ministry Conference, which happens every February. This next February it'll be in Little Rock, arkansas, hosted by the River City Church, and I would encourage you, if you are working at a church or a member of a church in an urban setting, come to the Urban Ministry Conference and be a part.
Dr. Steve Cloer:And you may think, no, that's not for me. Probably it is for you. Probably if you're trying to reach the neighborhood in the city that you're in. It's just like, as I mentioned in the column about Mark Powell, who's the now preacher at the Donaldson Church of Christ 150-year-old church in East Nashville you think, oh, that's not a place to do urban ministry, quote unquote when actually they have a recovery program, they have a church or a group that meets in their building that worships in Swahili. They're reaching out to the neighborhood schools, they're dealing with young adults moving into the neighborhood, they're navigating urban issues and probably at your church, if you look at your neighborhood, it's the same kinds of urban issues that are plaguing your neighborhood. And so how do you do that? How does your church engage that? Well, come to the Urban Ministry Conference and we'll talk about that. And if I can be helpful to your church or your leaders, the center can be helpful. We want to do that. We want to be helpful so that churches and cities can engage their neighborhoods.
BT Irwin:Well, Dr Steve Kloer is Associate Professor of Ministry at the Harding School of Theology in Searcy, Arkansas, and the Director of the Center for Church and City Engagement in Memphis, Tennessee. He recently contributed a guest column titled the Changing Face of Urban Ministry to the Christian Chronicle. The link will be in the show notes. Dr Clover, thank you for going to the city with us today.
Dr. Steve Cloer:You're welcome.
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