Steven Shapiro, Director, Hospitality & Tourism Law Program, American University, interviewed by Rachel Humphrey

Steven shares how his curiosity and connection with people help him develop relationships and how many of those relationships then end up serving as mentors and champions to others. He shares how his involvement in associations helps him continuously grow and develop new skills. Steven offers insights on public speaking, a skill he did not develop until more recently in his career, and which he now finds very fulfilling.

Transcript

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Rachel Humphrey 0:02

I am Rachel Humphrey with d e I advisors. We are a nonprofit organization dedicated to empowering personal success within the hospitality industry, and I am delighted to welcome to the show today, Steven Shapiro. Steven, welcome

Steven Shapiro 0:16

Rachel. Thanks so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be with you.

Rachel Humphrey 0:21

For those who are not familiar with Steven and his background, I invite you to go over to dei advisors.org where you'll find his bio and can learn a little bit more about him. In the meantime, we're gonna jump right in. And Steven, we've spoken a lot. One of the things I love so much about the hospitality industry, That everyone's path to leadership is very different and we can all end up in very different places within an industry that you and I both feel very passionately about. Talk a little bit about your background and how you ended up where you are today.

Steven Shapiro 0:51

I may give you a little bit too much information, Rachel, but here we are. I went to college and law school and then started in a traditional law lawyer path law firm working away. At age 39 I started to chase a passion, an inkling, and I left the practice of law and went into construction. Not construction law, but construction and the construction trailer. Ended up getting a master's in civil engineering at night working in construction during the day and raising a family along the way. I thought the school I went to was missing a class in real estate development for the project manager. Proposed the class, started teaching at University of Maryland where I live engineering school, then University of Maryland Architecture school in construction, management for developer, and then proposed a class at American University, Washington College of Law, where I am now, and liked it quite a bit. Then in summer of 2011, I proposed to the dean a course of study in hospitality law. Of course, or maybe not of course, but Washington DC is home of Marriott. Hilton had moved from LA recently in that era to Northern Virginia choice hotels hotel ownership, a h and l a. In DC it seemed like a good fit. Proposed it to the dean. It was approved in 2012 and we launched the program in 2013 and we've now been running it for, we've had our 11th program and it's been a path I couldn't chart, but has been quite rewarding, but for me, and that's where I am now as director of the program and plus I teach at the law school.

Rachel Humphrey 2:52

Wow. So many great lessons in there. We're gonna follow up on some of those. Sure. About pivoting. Being an entrepreneur at a university actually is a very interesting concept. One of the things that immediately jumps to mind when I think of you is public speaking, because we hear so much that a lot of future leaders find that to be their biggest obstacle in their path to leadership. As a professor, obviously you do a lot of public speaking, but also in having to advocate for a course, a program, all of these things, you had to be at least comfortable or uncomfortably comfortable. Sure. Approaching leaders, management, the university and others. Have you always been comfortable public speaking? How do you prepare? What are some of the tricks of the trade that you share, either maybe with your students even on how to prepare for public speaking?

Steven Shapiro 3:41

Going back to the earlier convers or that just, we had, I, there's so much about myself. I didn't know until I was age 39. I had done no public speaking at all into my forties. And then started with smaller programs regional or local panels or boards, and then worked my way. I am not a giver of speeches. That's a whole different set. I am, I'm quite adamant and active on panels. I like to moderate, I like to participate. I think like most of the other guests you've had, and I've listened to your wonderful podcast preparation vetting ideas, practicing understanding the message I wanna deliver. Getting feedback, evaluations and then of course practice and practice. I was willing, when I started to, when I started to do public speaking, I was willing to fail. As long as it wasn't gonna be too much, I knew that there would be one or two times when I would fall flat and I fell flat at least once, and it was horrible and it was embarrassing and it was okay. I was mortified. I'm still mortified thinking about it, but as long as it wasn't seven outta eight times and it was one out of 19, that to me is okay. And I recovered and it was bad, but solvable. So there's a certain amount of being able to, at least for me, know that there was gonna be. Uncomfortableness. And to go from there.

Rachel Humphrey 5:22

I like the lesson in there too about you don't have to have been public speaking your whole life. Like you said, you came to it later in your career. But also that it's okay to not be an expert at it. Day one, we're all gonna have missteps. I have missteps, public speaking on a daily basis. It doesn't mean that we aren't good public speakers or that we won't continue to improve upon that, so I really appreciate your sharing that. Related to that, I'm

Steven Shapiro 5:47

gonna add one more thing, if that's okay. Absolutely. And we'll get to it later, but I think we'll get to it later. But as following, what I think I'm good at in following my instincts, no one's asked me to give a speech and I'm probably not gonna pursue it. But I feel perfectly comfortable being on a panel and moderating and coming up with the agenda. So I run hard in that direction. And I think it's knowing what I think I'm good at and then developing from there. I know a few people who are just gifted speakers and can do it. The rest of us are slogging it out and working at it.

Rachel Humphrey 6:27

And that's a good lesson too, that accepting opportunities to speak at what you're good at, that match your strong suit, whether it's content or skillset. And so I wanna actually turn to developing new skills because I'm sure as you transitioned, much like I did from lawyer career, one to other things along the way, there were skills that you carry over from one. Aspect of your career to another, but sometimes you encounter completely new skills that you recognize I'm going to need to develop this to be successful at this chapter of my career. Can you identify any of those and how you set out to whether master them or begin to master them?

Steven Shapiro 7:07

I'll try. The answer is yes, everywhere. I'm not I believe passionately in I teach at the law school. I believe in law school education. It gets thrown around thinking like a lawyer. I'm not even sure I properly know what that means, but I do think there's some skills that we learn along the way in law school. One is that we deal with difficult topics that we had no, I, no idea about. The idea of, I can learn this if I work at it. We're not doing surgery, we're just trying to figure out concepts. I think the other is you can either label it attention to detail or perfection. The idea of it needs to be just right, whatever it is we're doing. As lawyers, especially in law firms, there are demands of. Hour time and being paid to do something properly. And thinking I suppose in a linear manner and being complete. I would say again, at age 39, I didn't quite realize I was a graphic learner, and that's a lesson I learned at about that time when I was looking at construction drawings and finding, I was much more able to understand concepts. I. We're in a graphic, so if I'm preparing for a speech or preparing for a class, I'm much more likely to do bubbles and post-it notes and rearranging them rather than a narrative, and then I'll do the narrative. So a variety of topics along the way. I'm not sure there have been topics where I've just said I, I can't do this. 'cause given the nature of what we do, we have to, at least, know our weaknesses or know my weakness and then go from there.

Rachel Humphrey 8:58

That's great advice. I always love to share with our audience one of the ways that a guest speaker has impacted me my career some lesson that I have learned, and I wanna do that now in talking about relationship building and networking. You are an incredible relationship builder, and I'm gonna give a couple of examples, okay. Which, I know won't surprise you, but Will may surprise you how much they've impacted me. If you come across something witty that you think I'm gonna find funny, you send it to me. If you haven't heard from me or seen me in a while, you reach out to me and ask me how I'm doing. For anyone who's watching the video and not listening on the podcast, the wall behind you is actually a collection of every note anyone's ever written you. Every gift anyone has ever given you, it's an incredible office to visit because you are surrounded by the relationships. That you have built and in an industry where relationship building and networking is identified by just about everybody as the most important skill for success. Talk a little bit about how you have maybe developed your relationship building and networking suited to your personality, which might be different. Sure. End up with very similar networks at the end of the day.

Steven Shapiro 10:14

That's a lot to unpack and I'll try. In no particular order. When I see some I'm active, I'm curious and I think we'll be talking about curiosity at some point. Or I'd like to be talking about curiosity. If I see an article that I find is interesting I'll often find out who the person they're talking about and send a note to that person. So it could be Chip Rogers. An article about Chip Rogers and I might say, boy, he seems interesting. Can I get to him? And I, the answer may be no, it's not possible. But I can find someone near him. It might be the journalist who wrote the article. Contact them. I think a lot of people, rightfully so think, oh, I went to University of Georgia to pick a place near you. I'm gonna find alum from Georgia. 'cause I have. It's a psychic in, and I guess that's true, but I just find people who I find interesting and contact them. I'm very, I'm not sure methodical is the right word, but maybe it is. I keep track. I try to keep track of everything. If somewhat, if Bill introduced you, to me, I will in our contact. Oh yeah, bill introduced us. So if I can't remember what was her name, I remember Bill introduced us. I'll keep track of that way. If I read an article that has pertinent to what I think you might find interesting, whether on a personal level or professional level, I'll certainly send it. I try to think in terms of groupings, not necessarily hotel owner or hotel manager. Maybe friends who have interest in the arts and also hospitality and just try to continually to work on it and to keep it. I will ask for help for me. I will ask, always ask for help for students. I often invite students to who, who do you wanna meet? Let's try to meet them, I think and genuine request for help. Especially by someone for somebody else has great power. I think most of us have a desire to help and don't always know how to do it. And of course we're all busy. We all have pressures, but I do find a request for help. We'll get either Love to, I'm really busy, can you circle back with me in two weeks or. Yes, let's meet for coffee. And I'm just adamant about it and I try to continue to do it always

Rachel Humphrey 13:03

well as the recipient of so much of that networking. I always love when I get an email from you that says, Rachel, I just met so and I am certain that you two should be connected a hundred percent of the time. You're right when I follow up with that person, you are absolutely right. And that's not only a great skill to have, but a great gift that you are giving to the industry in terms of continuing this networking. You mentioned a second ago curiosity and Absolutely that's something that we hear from so many fantastic leaders in the industry that seems to. Common trait. It doesn't, you never stop learning. You never stop wanting to, you don't reach the C-suite and decide I'm smart enough, or I know enough or anything else. And I know that your curiosity, not just because of your hobbies and your interests drives you, but also in the world of teaching and the creation of the program. Talk a little bit about curiosity and you mentioned some of the ways you continuously grow. You read a lot, you interact with people a lot. How else do you continue to feed that curiosity

Steven Shapiro 14:04

in the ways that you just mentioned? Actively reading, trying to understand. I do think there's great value and I work on it hard in asking questions and asking questions that try to elicit something out of the reci, whoever I'm talking to. I find that's helpful rather than chitchat. I like it to be something purposeful that 'cause it's, I don't know what I don't know, or we don't know what we don't know. And to find out, maybe it's the 40th minute of our conversation that you and I are having where something clicks and it's an aha moment where I didn't know that. But on a basic daily basis, it's just. Continuing to read, continuing to ask. I thought one of the great parts about the construction industry and it from the conversations in hospitality is, I don't understand. Can you explain it to me? And the answer's always, almost, always gonna be, yeah, of course. Come, let's talk. Whether it's how an electric line works or how a property management system works on a computer at a hotel, always, almost always gonna be happy to help. Let's talk. And that's where the great information is for me,

Rachel Humphrey 15:31

and I love that curiosity drives so many other aspects. So if it's the. Entrepreneurial nature of the program that you've created, the relationships that you continue to build, the introductions that you make, it isn't just serving you and your growth, it's serving everybody around you as well. And I love that. Speaking of continuous growth, you are incredibly active with associations, boards, the community, nonprofits, and what we hear a lot is, That it is not only about the giving back, which is important, but that you can develop completely different skills through activities or association with those organizations than maybe you do in your day job. Talk a little bit about your involvement with associations and nonprofits and how that's really helped you in your career.

Steven Shapiro 16:23

Yeah, that's a great question. And actually, Students, the end of the semester I asked invite students to ask me questions. It can be anything professional, personal, and they will often ask about how do I develop myself professionally? And I will always, almost always respond, get involved now with the board volunteer. There's always help that's needed. By nature, you're gonna be around expertise in the field. There's plan chances to learn to gather. I'm not one for receptions. Of course, I'll go and I'll be fine, but I'm not gonna be staying out late. I like the content. I like to see what's happening. I like to walk the exhibit floors. Some of these conferences have major exhibits and I'm just trying to gather. What's changed? So over five years you might, I might see more e Ss G than I saw. I might see more in perhaps signage. I'm just trying to gather as much as I can and try to figure out what's happening currently and what's direction. And I think we'll get to it, but I'm fantastically curious about vision and what's next. And always trying to get to it.

Rachel Humphrey 17:43

Wow. I love that. That's a great answer. And I didn't know that's advice that you provide to your students, so that's really great to hear. Switching gears for a minute one of the things that I've been very open about struggling in my own development is I can have a lot of. Negativity in my own head, a lot of head trash. Is that something that you have encountered along the way and do you have strategies for overcoming it or as students approach you and they are maybe encountering some o some of their own lack of confidence or their own hesitations, how you might coach them to overcome some of that self-imposed negativity?

Steven Shapiro 18:18

Yeah, we could probably spend hours and days on this topic a classic area where, of course, I, I. I often have lots of negative thoughts. I don't know, negative, yeah, negative thoughts. And boy, this is really hard and this is harder than I thought it would be. And I'm, some tasks I've been at for a decade with the hotel law program and just can't quite figure it out and constantly looking at it, of course. When dealing with others, it's easier to be much more philosophical. And especially with students, I'll drop whatever I'm doing to help them and it's usually around career and getting into a law firm and I'll just drop what I'm doing to help them get an entry. And that's usually the crux of their self-doubt. Maybe their grades are okay, but not great. Maybe some setbacks, but yeah I wish I was better at my own overcoming self-doubt. But it's a reality. We're working hard, we're trying to do, I'm trying to do lofty things, I think, and it's tough getting a no, even if it's a sensible no. And it's just reality, but it is hard.

Rachel Humphrey 19:37

It is and surrounding yourself with the right support system where you can have other people's voices build you up, when at times you might be knocking yourself down a little bit. But in that, this is a great

Steven Shapiro 19:50

segue that you're gonna go into. Go ahead.

Rachel Humphrey 19:53

It is a great segue because in the example you just gave, not just of helping students find jobs and do other things, but in connecting people and who do you wanna know by definition that makes you a great ally and champion across the industry? What do you talk with your students about, or for you even personally, how has it been in developing mentors, serving as a mentor, maybe on the reverse side, and the importance of identifying those people that are really gonna champion for you?

Steven Shapiro 20:21

Such a question of great depth and a question that's hard to answer. And also leadership. I would add right in there sponsors. There are times I think of mentoring, like I think of coaching in law or in hotel. How does this work? How do we draft an agreement? How do we look at a new property? Sort of the X's and O's of learning how to be a professional and learning how to be a the craft. And in some ways that's easy. It's not easy, but it's easier to think about. I sometimes in I and invented, I sometimes in class will talk about rabbis and a rabbi being an ally, a champion, a sponsor, and it's not always, rah, you're great. Sometimes it can be reality, sometimes it can be, yeah. I think you really made a mistake. I'm not sure I would've done the same thing. I had it with a friend the other day and I said, I don't think I would do that. I, and here's why. So I think there's understanding as the recipient presenting to the others, In a way that is open and honest, what's going on, and as being able to listen. And then if I'm offering the advice, I'm trying to be a candid, thoughtful, and it's not always, trying to be, it's, here's another idea, here's a way to approach it. But there are times when we make a mistake and it's okay, how are we gonna fix this one? Or how do we prevent it from being bad? So again, Mentor, I understand everything else is harder and it takes, I have different people I go to for different ideas. If I'm trying to raise funding, there are people who have great thoughts on that. If I'm trying to add a course, there might be others. So it's a shifting series of who our expertise is gonna be. But it's a great topic. It's an important topic, and I think we all have. Those who've helped us.

Rachel Humphrey 22:34

You mentioned something else in there that I think is really important, and that is finding people who will give you honest feedback because feedback is a gift, but sometimes we hear people surrounding themselves with people who only focus on the positivity or the. Building someone up, and sometimes that honest feedback is even more important or more critical than some of the other things. Discussing feedback I love to hear that, where you can say someone, okay, we're all gonna make mistakes, but if we do, what do we do next to? To overcome that. And

Steven Shapiro 23:06

I have a couple of moving on. Oh, go ahead. No, go ahead. No, go ahead. I was just gonna say, I have a couple of friends many colleagues who I value all advice, but there are a few who are times when I feel vulnerable, like they have a good read on the situation and they might say, yeah, that wasn't a good one, or, yeah, you're on it. And I, it's just, there's a little bit of personal. Risk, or we're exposing ourselves, we're vulnerable, and it might be, you didn't do it right or try it this way. So anyway, your next question.

Rachel Humphrey 23:41

No. I think that's really important. It is risky and it's terrifying and hopefully at the end of the day, it pays off. In helping you to continue to grow. We hear a lot nowadays about a personal brand. When you and I were first entering law school, no one was talking about a personal brand or even a personal mantra. Do you have a brand or a saying or something that really guides you when you think about who is Steven Shapiro that you really want people to see, or what helps you make your decisions at the end of the day?

Steven Shapiro 24:11

Yeah, it's a good question. Interesting question. And my first and second responses to this is, no, I don't I really don't have a driving mantra, or I don't think a driving brand. Now, I may have one in the eyes of others, but for me, each situation is, even if it's a nugget, each situation is different. I'm just trying to react to what's happening in the moment, and I'm not, I don't feel like I'm being driven by a direction that I always wanna take, or, I certainly aspire to be, hopefully what we all aspire to be. But beyond that, no, I, I. I, I do feel like each situation is on its own now taken together over a period of years. I hope it adds up to a body of good work, but not on a case by case basis. I just, it's all new.

Rachel Humphrey 25:09

I appreciate your sharing that. Anyone who listens regularly knows that my favorite question to be asked and to ask in return is what advice would we give to our younger self? And the reason I love it, So much is I do think we're all works in progress. We as a continuous learner, as someone who is curious, we always want to reflect and look back. As you look back now, what would you tell 21 year old Steven, either about something you wish you knew or how things turned out for you?

Steven Shapiro 25:42

My first reaction is, And I dislike when people say, follow your passion. I think it's an empty advice. I, it's genuine advice, but it's empty for me, is I wish I had said to myself at 21, find out somehow where your strengths lie, where your instincts lie, and really don't do much until you get there. I think that. I think I took I don't know, practicing law is noble, but I don't think it was my strength and instinct. I'm not sure I regret it, but I think if I had, however aptitude tests, otherwise, trying to figure out where it is that I'm good and could possibly excel would've led to different decisions. I think my advice to myself would be, look at it. Like many others, I went college, professional school, and straight into professional work. We all have financial needs and so do I. But if I could have done two years of something interesting whether it was journalism or construction or something, I think that might have been time well spent. But I, I do think in the. Finding the aptitudes and it can be, my world right now is law and it can be, not necessarily aptitude in law, but it might be aptitude in transactions or litigation or arbitration or intellectual property or immigration, all subsets. And that might it's somehow different and it would be the same in hospitality.

Rachel Humphrey 27:24

Interesting. As I expected, 'cause I could visit with you all day long. We are down to just one time for one last question, but as you think about the motto of d e i advisors to empower personal success, you've given so much great advice today, shared a lot of your insights that you've learned along the way. Do you have one final nugget that you would leave our audience with?

Steven Shapiro 27:49

Yeah, we didn't get to it. And I'm not sure this is advice, but I admire the visionaries. I admire those who are thinking what's next, what could be next across any industry? And I try to when I'm reading, especially like who, who thought of doing that? How did they think of it? That I'm not sure it's advice, but I do try to take time and just look at the picture and where am I going with this? Where are we going with this? What could we do? To me that's, I don't know if it's part of curiosity, but it's part of, it's exciting and sometimes the, it's a, I had it this summer where I thought we were doing something exciting and it came out flat. It's okay, we can pick this up and try again. So that would be my advice.

Rachel Humphrey 28:46

That is a great place for us to wrap up today. Steven, on behalf of my own path on behalf of the hospitality industry, thank you so much for your commitment for all that you do for the industry. Thank you for supporting the mission of d e I advisors and for sitting down with me for a little bit today.

Steven Shapiro 29:03

It's a great pleasure. Thanks so much Rachel. And thanks to D e I.

Rachel Humphrey 29:08

And for our audience, we hope that you'll visit us@deiadvisors.org to hear from over a hundred industry leaders who have also shared their paths to leadership and the insights they've learned along the way. You can also download and stream our podcast from your favorite streaming service. Steven, thank you again for joining us.

Steven Shapiro 29:26

It's a great pleasure, Rachel. Thank you.