Fran Brasseux, Former CEO, ICHRIE interviewed by Dorothy Dowling

Fran's career journey, emphasizing the importance of patience, perseverance, and personal empowerment. Fran shares her experiences transitioning from the hotel industry to association management and academia, highlighting the complexities and rewards of working within associations to make impactful changes. 

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Dorothy Dowling 0:04

Greetings. I am Dorothy Dowling, a principal of DEI Advisors. We are a non profit organization dedicated to personal empowerment. I am delighted to welcome Fran Brasso, CEO of the International Council on Hotel, Restaurant, and Institutional Education, otherwise known as ICRE, to our show today. Fran, it is an honor to have you with us today.

Fran Brasseux 0:26

And it's about time we connected on this, right? So thank you for inviting me. I really appreciate it.

Dorothy Dowling 0:32

It's always a pleasure to be with you. So Fran, when we start with each one of our DEI advisors, we always like for them to share their career journey. And when I think about all the different things you've done, you were in the hotel space directly as a senior hotel executive in a global role, driving commercial success. You've been an association executive for about half your career, partly with HSMAI and now with ICRE. So I'm wondering if you can share your journey with us and how your executive role has powered your career in the association space.

Fran Brasseux 1:03

It wasn't a plan. It just built, right? I've always had good intuitions and most of the time listen to them, not all the time, but most of the time listen to them. But I'm not a natural association executive. I association work is hard. It it doesn't move as fast as the corporate world and it doesn't make decisions quickly. It requires a lot of collaboration, a lot of consideration on the membership views and the membership needs and and but it makes an impact. And it's the impact that drew me to the association side because you can, you can work in an individual business and make a difference, but you can in an association world, you're going to make a difference with the It's a complex world. And it doesn't move as fast as I would like it. So I am, I'm not known for being the most patient person. I am known for being the most relentless one and especially, in the now in the academia side our members are so smart and they're so strategic. And it's an honor to work with them, but the ideas they have Every day require implementation, right? It's it's a very interesting place, but it's a place that intentionally I joined to collect knowledge and to be able to make a difference between hospitality industry and hospitality education coming together, a bit on both sides and and know that often they get siloed. So there's so much value in collaboration between the two. It's fun to bring it together.

Dorothy Dowling 2:31

Wow. No, that's very impactful. And I loved your hundred X story in terms of impact on legacy that you can leave, Fran. I'm wondering if there has been a personal mantra that has driven your journey. And if you'd be willing to share that with us.

Fran Brasseux 2:47

I asked my husband that question because I said, they're gonna ask me about a personal mantra. What do you think? And he said you want me to tell you what I think? And I said that's why I asked you. And he said, yeah. He said, it's becau. He said, you, you've been able to, when you hit a wall. He said, Fran, you never give up. He said, you go over it, through it, around it whatever it takes to make it happen. And he said, and I, he said, I think that's your strength. He said he said, you really do find a way to make things work, even the most complicated problems over time you could solve. And he said, so I think your mantra is you could break down any, won't just give you a little time. But I would also tell you that I am. I do think it requires now more patience than than I had when I was younger. And time sometimes gives you more patience, right? I am more patient and I do now seek first to understand and then to act which is not always something I've done. I know in some early cycle, I guess I caught, psychological testing and such. When you join companies and they do tests and such thing, I would always be the rocket ship. I was the one that's gonna go on. But I do know now you need to understand the business. You need to understand the impact on understand the reasons why the first decisions were made and then see what you can do to enhance. I've gotten more wise than that.

Dorothy Dowling 4:00

It's interesting when you said about your journey, not being necessarily intentional, but when you think about you being a rocket ship with, when you're driving commercial business brand, that was probably what was needed. And now you're in the association space where you have to be more consultative. So patience is what you needed. And I think that would be relating back to your husband's testimony that you always figure it out, whatever the challenge is, you have a pathway to. Whether it's over, above, around, you figure it out. And that's been my experience. These

Fran Brasseux 4:29

days are better because, of course, everything's more complicated, I'm sure. Oh, for sure. So it's just it's never done on the first try. It's usually takes a number of tries today, right? And you have to be relentless and you also have to be patient. Again, two things it took some time to learn.

Dorothy Dowling 4:45

No, I think that's it. That's a really great framework. I'm also wondering if you can share with us people that might have been impactful to your career. Most of us have someone in our lives that was an important ally or champion in terms of our career journey. Is there anyone that was particularly impactful to you? A

Fran Brasseux 5:06

lot of people so I had I'm naturally curious and I like to take on challenges. So when I moved from airline to hotel, of course, there was a whole learning curve on that. That wasn't a natural move that many years ago. Most of the time, everybody stayed in their lanes, right? So when I moved to hotel, I had to learn from, Everybody had to listen. I had to learn. And the same thing happened in the association world. I hadn't had any experience there, but that's where I went to work after a hotel experience and I had to learn what that looked like, which was much different than on the corporate world. And you'll think this is pandering, but Dorothy, you were part of that learning. So you were, I watched how you handled, you were on our board at the association I was working with at that time, HSMAI and I watched how you worked. the politics. I watched how you shared your wisdom. I watched your generosity. And I just saw how you handled cultures and people and you do it. You did it very successfully. You may not have known I was learning from you at the time, but I was, and I think that's there's a lot of people in hospitality who are absolutely amazing and they're so willing to share their stories and offer advice, make context for you. You feel like a responsibility now as you advance along to do that for others. But you were someone I learned from on how to handle the boards and handle how to handle advice in a way that made change, but didn't break relationships.

Dorothy Dowling 6:26

That's very kind of you to say, Fran. It's true.

Fran Brasseux 6:28

It's true.

Dorothy Dowling 6:29

I thoroughly enjoyed the leadership journey through HSMAI mostly because of the remarkable people that we were both privileged to work with. So we have some mutual admiration for each other and we

Fran Brasseux 6:40

absolutely do. So in the hotel world, I was thinking about that time, too. And I was thinking, it's I was at the Forte on the meridian group for 11 years. And two amazing, two amazing leaders. Really that I think about Andre cow was a CEO, and James Hogan was the managing director on both based in Europe. And I was in New York, and they were so remarkable in the way they handled again your style on that politics and cultures. That was more of a globalization than perhaps I'd been even at the beginning of my career. the airline when I was with Pan Am, but they just handled really problems and issues in a way where interestingly enough, people weren't angry, they just understood they had to make change, and that's, I'm often I'm often someone who's short, I guess shortcuts the weight and wants to get to the story. So I've had to learn that, sometimes the journey needs to be a little slower and the understanding needs to be a little slowly given, but it's they were absolutely mentors and amazing leadership skills and gone on to do. Great other things, but they were I was privileged to work with them and to watch how they worked. And in some of the cases it was in the public relations area where I was watching how they would work the journalist and how they would work the story and how they would create the something different than actually, I remembered in some cases but beautifully done.

Dorothy Dowling 7:57

Storytelling and communication is a pretty important leadership skill. And when you're in a brand, I think somehow contextualizing what you stand for is a real skill that a lot of brand leaders hone over time. But you were amazing leader when you were at 40 hotels as well, friend. And I do think that sales and commercial leadership that you were able to bring to HSMAI really helped the organization because associations, the financial. Being is something that has to be attended to. So you've got to be able to encourage that revenue stream. Often it's

Fran Brasseux 8:30

the biggest struggle, so it is, I will tell you, I think this I've always been in sales and marketing, right? But I, the sales leadership and the sales work often doesn't get the credit it deserves. And. Nothing happens without that. So you can't get to the finances if you haven't got the money to count. So it's a skill that's really needs to be in everybody's repertoire, right? Because if you can't sell yourself, you can't sell an idea, you also can't. move a business, right? So it's all part of that selling process. But that's been a, that's been a great part of my background is the ability to be able to build those relationships and keep them over a long times. They're valued, it's, it turns into family, especially in hospitality, we're also tightly connected. It's a small world there, isn't it?

Dorothy Dowling 9:13

Said. Yes, we crossed paths many times through our career and the richness of the relationships, I think, are part of what keeps our career going at such a incredible level because we all support each other and mentor each other and actually refer things to each other as opportunities present themselves. So you're absolutely right, Fran.

Fran Brasseux 9:34

When I transferred from the Forte Hotel Group and and I had my car service and my apartment and and started work at the association world, in that case at HSMA, I, one of my first business trips was to see one of our colleagues in Indiana and I, how was I going to get from, from Indianapolis or whatever I was coming into maybe Chicago into Park, whatever it was, Lake Station. And they said there's a bus and I went, a bus. So the association world is a little different.

Dorothy Dowling 10:02

For sure. No, the budgets and.

Fran Brasseux 10:04

It's upgraded now, at least to a rental car, but it's not a chauffeured car. But it is it's a chance to make an impact. And I do like that. And I do I think that's part of hospitality, serving other people and caring about others growth and others, other success. So it's important. But the finance part of it is always the tough part, even When I was number two at HSM AI and number one, I wanted to be, I wanted to be the leader, right? Wherever I went next and here I am as a CEO, but I'll tell you, it's a tough spot. It all ends here. And and that includes all the financial information and and. It's been a great experience. I've been with ICRE now for three years in June, and I look a lot older than when I started. I do think they're amazing. I, I'm really lucky. They are an amazing group. deep friendships now that I I never would have had. And they're so smart. That's why I sometimes just don't understand why academia and industry can't collaborate closer. It's really, it's a, I know it's not everywhere, but it's a success story that needs to be still sold.

Dorothy Dowling 11:10

I do think particularly now as talent has become such an important or it's being recognized as such an important part of what leadership needs to bring to the table. I'm hoping that's going to pave the way forward for more co innovation collaboration with academia. Fran. I wonder if I could. Ask you a little bit because one of the other areas that I wanted to ask, which I know you have referenced already, just being in the association world, particularly with your current role with ICRE, is really just the variety and diversity of stakeholder opinions and how you navigate all of that, because as you pointed out, you have resource limitations in terms of dollars and people, so You know, be inclusive in terms of ensuring everyone is heard. How do you navigate all that so successfully?

Fran Brasseux 12:01

Not well every day. But what I'll say is, that's the sales experience too. How do you close a piece of business, right? Or how do you navigate that relationship to yes. And it's, I think understanding the business. I don't, I don't know that I could have been an association executive on any other business, but hospitality, right? So because I understand a customer business and so I can understand a little bit more about how to bring that value back to them from what we can do from the association. But so it's important to understand the business and it's I would tell you that it's not easy. It's not easy. It's a it's a lot of time talking for my best interests and not enough time to do what you need to do. There's a lot of strategy that gets gets discussed and that's important, but I've always been I've always been someone who, you know, Really the strategy, like the plan and like the approval. And then I move, right? And sometimes it doesn't happen like that. Sometimes it has different opinions that need or different approvals that need to be done. Most of the time, most of the time, getting it through to that process makes it a better end product. It just takes a little more time. But the end product is often a lot better. And it's interesting how, okay. different viewpoints can improve things if you take the time to listen. It's just, as I told you earlier, I'm not the most patient person. But I do think that I do think I speak up a lot more than I used to. And I think that's sometimes just experience over time. And I think, Again, understanding, understanding both sides, both the hospitality industry and the education side. The part that's still I can't get around, wrapped around is the research side, so that's complex, right? So we do, we have Four different journals that I create in different areas all hospitality generated, but in different, one's about research, one's about education, one's about about case studies and one's about research studies case studies together and connected to industry and the process for that, I know the information just to give you, I know the information is valuable, but it takes too long to get it. Doing that with industry, where the problems are. Identify today and we want the solutions by Friday, right? And you can't wait two years. So it's how do you bring the abstract part of research to the surface a little bit more and make it applied a little bit differently when it comes to working with industry to give it more value because a lot of the research is It's brilliant work and brilliantly presented, but it's not shared with industry.

Dorothy Dowling 14:37

Yeah I think that's an interesting challenge that I know from when I was a student, Fran. It is that applied versus that basic research that, obviously is going to drive transformational change, but those of us that are in the commercial environment have that applied lens in terms of wanting to drive to business outcomes. That is a very interesting challenge to think about. I don't think in my lifetime

Fran Brasseux 14:59

I will solve it, but I do think there's some advancements we can make with it. And I do think, We've got a new partnership now with Sustainable Hospitality Alliance. I don't know if you know them, but they're a remarkable partner. And and they're actually, we did a sustainable topic in all four of the journeys introduced sustainable topics from their industry partners with some research ideas on what to do with that. And we've made it a competition through to our for awards at our conference this summer in July. And I think We'll see how that works out. But working with a partner who will help you with, one of the things that The research is an academia need is the data,

cc 15:35

right?

Fran Brasseux 15:36

So they need data from the hotels. They need data from the restaurants. They need data for the research. So there needs to be deeper partnerships with that. But then, of course, the data has to be able to be shared because research needs to be shared. So it is, It's work that's worth working on, but it isn't easy. Yeah, there's a, and then, of course, the hospitality schools have certain requirements, right? The research departments have a certain, a whole certain process that has to happen. I didn't even know what a DOI was until I got into research. It is It's a lot of thoughtful work that would be better if it was shared a little more, a little easier.

Dorothy Dowling 16:13

Yeah.

Fran Brasseux 16:13

Because it's some of it is it helps someone's tenure, but it doesn't necessarily impact what happens in the industry. Sometimes we're better at the articles than we might be at getting the information to the content of a research paper.

Dorothy Dowling 16:27

That's an interesting challenge. I can understand some of the process requirements on the academic institutions in terms of the quality control they have. They're getting

Fran Brasseux 16:35

funding on that research that they're getting, so you've got all different kinds of things and you've got publishing that happens and restrictions on that. So there's I might, I don't tend to give up, but I do think it's it's one that's hard to push to change.

Dorothy Dowling 16:49

Yeah, no, that sounds like an interesting challenge. I need to think about some of that. Yeah, it might

Fran Brasseux 16:53

be a solution.

Dorothy Dowling 16:54

Yeah I'm wondering if we can talk, I know you're talking about challenges in just in terms of your personal career journey. I'm just wondering if there were challenges That were big learning opportunities for you in terms of your growth and how to, how that really shaped your career and some of the decisions that you made, because you've obviously taken some big bets in terms of from airline to hotel and now into the association space. Maybe you could share some of what that looked like for you.

Fran Brasseux 17:24

When I when I moved from airlines, I was with Pan Am for 13 years and loved it. Would never have left, never would have left except they went bankrupt. So it was necessary to leave. And and I was offered the job at a more senior role. considerably more income in New York. It meant I had to relocate to New York. And I was in Washington D. C. And the risk on that was it was a whole new business. It was hotels versus airlines. And and I had a family in Washington. And it wasn't, that was a while ago. It wasn't, it was a little different for women to take the lead or to jump out and do something that left the family behind. But my husband, it's, the right partner. And I think you've had one too, Dorothy, the right partner can, will support you on that, and and help with not all of the work, but help with some of the work. But the risk is, if I'm asking everybody to sacrifice for me, And that's, and I'm not very good about asking that but I did and I have and then I've tried to make life better for them on what I've done. So it's a it's not always an easy decision.

Dorothy Dowling 18:27

Yeah. No, that's an interesting way you've characterized in terms of the sacrifice, wasn't just your sacrifice. It was your family that Also had to make some of that decision in terms of your move. And I do know that you've been an amazing parent and grandparent to your family friend. And I do think that is how we hopefully pay it back or pay it forward. I'm not sure which, but if they'll take,

Fran Brasseux 18:51

if they'll take the help, some of ours are teenagers now and it's not as easy.

Dorothy Dowling 18:57

Yeah, but that's an interesting characterization about how everyone had to make those tradeoffs and how important your family was in terms of supporting you and taking those risks.

Fran Brasseux 19:07

Just as talking Dorothy, maybe that's how some of the understanding of how collaboration works develops over your career time, right? So the idea to the family, everybody had to collaborate on what was going to do and what it would look like. And when were you going to be where and what he could do, and, oh yes, we could have some fabulous vacations, but they're only coming three or four times a year, right? But you're going to be gone. And so what does that do for us? Who's going to pick us up? Who's going to, who's going to, who's going to help us with the homework, all those things that that resolve itself, but take time and take and takes everybody again, everybody working towards a goal. Because It's what someone wants to do. So you're right about the giving it to the children and you're another amazing mother. We both know our stories and and I will tell you that it's the greatest gift of life, right? And having the grandchildren. Five now, five grandchildren it's they're wonderful. Can't spend enough time with them. But now it's not my time. It's their time. They're too busy.

Dorothy Dowling 20:03

I do think that joy of being in someone else's life and being part of their life and helping them on their journey, it is it is a gift as you have said, and, I guess that really led me into sort of this question about this work balance, which I know you've. You've spoken to Fran. I sometimes challenge myself if there really is balance, you've always had to travel a lot. You've had a lot of jobs. I know I've witnessed in terms of how much time when you're in the work is taken, there were lots of 70 and 80 hour work weeks. How did you find a way to, preserve your health and preserve your overall wellbeing going through all of those, challenging demands?

Fran Brasseux 20:46

The first thing is, of course, you got to take care of yourself. So you have to take care of your health. And what does that mean for who and when, and, I've always been a a very healthy eater, right? So I've always been very careful about my diet. And I'm sure that's been a good thing. I could always tell you, I need to do more exercise than I do. I have bouts of it. I'll do, six months of it. And then you won't see me for six months, but I share that. But I think that all of that, and sometimes genetics way into it, you didn't even have anything to do with it, but all of that. Is required because of the weeks are long and the work is hard, but what makes it for me doable was you love the work, you love the work. And so you got to find what you love and you've got to see, you got to find pleasure and what you create or what you do right and who you're working with, so it is I come from a a great mom and dad who were very hardworking and my father was such a hard worker. He demonstrated integrity and work ethic. Like most people through World War Two did. And yeah. And if you weren't working hard, what are you doing? So you have to do it. If you're going to do something, you have to do it right. And if it takes hard work, that's what it takes, right? There'll be a break in between, but now you've got to get it finished, right? And we all have deadlines more so probably in the corporate world than in the association world, but we have them here too, but in the corporate world, you're going to have it by Friday and it's got to be in somebody's hands by then. And it's got to be ready or the product has got to launch on Tuesday or whatever it is, and it's got to happen. And there's really no choice. You've got it. You've got to do the work, but you have to love the work, and I think, as you well know, hospitality has had a little bit of a bad hit at wood during the pandemic and and careers in the colleges and the enrollments and colleges that are off a little bit in some cases and people are looking at, business schools and technology opportunities and All of that's in hospitality. We just called it hospitality. We probably need to do a better story about our story, which is we are a business and we are the leading part of some of the tourism countries of the world, right? And one of the biggest employers and and have the most opportunities for working anywhere. And we know, and we don't tell the story often enough. So I think that I wouldn't have. If you had asked me, and I think you're going to get to the younger Fran. So what would the other tell the older Fran? So I'll wait on that. But I would say that you have to love the work. And if you're doing it just for the money, yeah, you won't be happy for very long. The, I do think the money comes when the work is it recognized and we both have had good careers on that. And and great experiences through life that I've been able to share with the family. They would never have been able to go to Africa and China, Europe, the way we've done if we hadn't been in, I hadn't been in hospitality.

Dorothy Dowling 23:28

Yeah. No, that's very well said. And I love the thread that you were speaking about in terms of wellness and the relationship with happiness, Fran, because I do think You know, that is becoming a conversation today in terms of people understanding that linkage of, the work that you do and the happiness that you feel in your work very much translates into your overall wellbeing. So maybe it wasn't doing a lot of work on

Fran Brasseux 23:53

that. I've seen some papers that you're putting forth and that's fantastic. Fantastic. And it is, years ago, I was part of the 14 reading group and we were doing an international conference somewhere. I might've just been in. Not just, but in Canada, not in Europe, it was in Canada, right? And and walking in with the lead speaker who was a doctor, I brought in someone who was going to talk about wellness, and I was saying, I've got five seconds to ask you, what's the one thing, like running around like a crazy New York woman, what's one thing you would tell me that I should do differently? And he said, Stop drinking coffee. Oh, he said, I went, Oh, I don't know if I can do that, but he said, yeah, he said, so I did for a while lemon juice, for, but it's it's I don't think it's one solution.

Dorothy Dowling 24:37

Yeah.

Fran Brasseux 24:37

I don't think it's one stop or it's one go. I think that it's it's moderation across everything, and thoughtfulness about it, and just being careful, being careful about your diet and your exercise and your health. I think you, you can't, you're the one, nobody's going to take care of it for you. You gotta take care of it for yourself.

Dorothy Dowling 24:55

Yeah, and sometimes that lesson is one we have to listen to much more frequently Fran, because many of us put lots of other people ahead of ourselves in terms of taking care of our overall well being. So that's very well said. I'm wondering if we can talk a little bit about public speaking, because all of the roles that I have worked with you on, Fran, you've always had a lot of presentations that you had to deliver, you had to work with media. Can you share with us how you? Honed your speaking skills, how you prepare for speaking engagements so that you can deliver on stage and execute so beautifully.

Fran Brasseux 25:31

It's not always beautiful but what I'll say is I spend time on preparation. So it's never, I'm never walking out there without something prepared. And I may not have everything prepared, but I've got my key points prepared. And most of the time, my knowledge will carry along with that but it is it's, You really have to do the work and you really have to practice, you really, you can't, it doesn't just happen. I think that I think having an opening paragraph. Ready to go is what usually carries me because usually I could, I can speak for a while without having to have notes but the opening paragraph has to be set. So I have to know that. And then I have to have my points from that on. And I really I like to speak. I like to have speaking roles, but they always make me nervous. I've never gone on a stage where I haven't been nervous before, but then it's when your adrenaline starts to kick in, right? But I do think that preparation is really important. And for me, it's having that, again, that first first part of my vocabulary to start and then making sure that I have my key points because I can ramble. So I, that's not always the best thing to do when you're presenting and you certainly don't want to go over on time. But you want to understand what you're doing. You know what the message is. I you okay, this is it. You're doing a lot of public speaking now. And you know that it's draining, you come off that stage and you just want to go to the bar, right? But you don't. Instead, you go and talk to people, right? But it is, it takes a lot but, and we, you and I have known some really great speakers who have been very successful in that as a career and, but I do know how hard they work before they go on that stage.

Dorothy Dowling 27:09

Yeah. But I think that's excellent advice, Fran, and I do think that's really important to our audience. The preparation is often hidden because people think that people have these natural skills that they just rely upon, but the reality That you have shared, and I certainly have witnessed is that the best speakers are those that have great respect for their audience. Invest the time and preparation. Make sure they understand who they are speaking to make sure the relevancy of whatever they're delivering is meaningful. So I really appreciate your honesty about that. And I also appreciate. The honesty that you've shared about how exhausting it is because you are on stage and you have to be on your game to be able to deliver and that takes a lot of energy as well as preparation. Both those points are extraordinarily important for our audience to have as takeaways. I know we referenced this a little earlier. I liked the way you had said it cause we have advice for my younger self, but I love to The way you said what would the older friend say to the younger friend? So let's ask that question What would the older friend say to the younger friend in terms of advice today? Or sometime in your career

Fran Brasseux 28:17

i'd say stay in school, as a woman In business you would have advanced faster and earned more money earlier. Had you gone on to get your master's or even your doctorate, the hospitality. Imagine if we'd had our doctorate or you have your master's don't you? But yeah. But imagine. The and I would have done it in finance, right? Be the strongest we could be in the environment that we're not always expected to be the strongest in, right? I would have done it. I would have done something in the finance area. So I told my younger self, be patient, right? You don't need to get out there and work right away. Stay in school a couple more years. You're here. Get it done while you're here. Would have been my one advice. And the other advice probably would have been Take, even take better care of yourself, take better care of yourself, you don't have to do everything today sometimes pacing it a little bit might be better results on things and and also I think that take care of your friends, they'll be with you forever.

Dorothy Dowling 29:09

I think those are all beautiful thoughts, Fran, in that. I do think that. Many of us, when we are young, it's always, we're always racing to get to somewhere and understanding that your career is really a marathon, not a sprint. And to take your time and enjoy the journey, I think is important. And I do think understanding that. Need to take care of yourself and I fundamentally believe that there have been so many very important people in my life that I'm, I treasure the fact that they're still part of my life, you included, but I do think that is about, you've got to take some time and effort to connect with people and that means you have to put it on your list to do. It's not something that will just happen unless you make some effort associated with it. So thank you for that. The last question we always ask everyone, Fran is, our whole mission with the advisors is really empowering personal success. So I don't know if there's any piece of final wisdom that you would like to share with our audience.

Fran Brasseux 30:09

I I think what you all have done at DEI and what David started and David Kong started is a very admirable endeavor. I think diversity, equity, inclusion, and now belonging is something We haven't always been good at right. And and whether it's but I don't think it's unique to one group. I think it's a lot of groups, so I think, I think women weren't always still aren't always treated equally. I think, I think whether it's by color or by genetics or whether it's the Native Americans or, or whoever deserve some opportunities that maybe they didn't have before, but everybody deserves opportunities. But I do think, I think a focus on trying to make things more balanced is important. I think it's a troubling time right now you especially, I'm in Florida and especially, with some of the rules and regs that have come into Florida, where where it's made it a little bit harder for for some international groups to come in and do things. And, that's not inclusive, even though it's, It was intentional, but it is think about, just with women, think about if we'd been in the workplace 50 years earlier, what could have been possible? I don't know about your mother, but my mother wasn't in the workplace and neither was her mother. And she thought I was crazy, but she also admired the fact that I wasn't going to just stay home. But I do think, I think diversity and inclusion, I think sometimes I should be careful with this, but I do think sometimes we've gone a little too far one way and come from the other way and we need to find a way in the middle to make things more equitable but I do think that the talent is everywhere. You just have to be patient enough to help train it or see it.

Dorothy Dowling 31:55

Yeah. No, I think that's really thoughtfully said, Fran. And I do think that is that nature of inclusivity is trying to give everyone an opportunity to have a seat at the table and for them to be heard and respected. So I know that really is A very deep personal commitment that David Kong has made, obviously coming from China, Hong Kong from where he is. He's obviously bootstrapped an amazing career, but that's part of his dream about what the D. E. I. Advisors is to hopefully help others in terms of supporting their journeys in some small way. So I thank you for your honesty. I do think it takes courageous leaders like you to always bring that story forward and to bridge some of the gaps we have in our industry to help us all potentially see some of the areas that we need. So I will tell you,

Fran Brasseux 32:45

with I'm sorry, Dorothy, I agree it's very diverse. It's very diverse because of course, so many of our students are international, right? And and sometimes. The language is a challenge, right? And, but I will tell you it's the intelligence is amazing and the opportunity, right? So I do and sometimes I will tell you, sometimes I think, oh, we can't, we just can't be that inclusive. We don't have the time, but most of the time we can be, we can be and and I do think the schools do a good job. In most cases, I haven't found a case where they haven't done a good job because that's part of who their demographics are, right? So much in schools are again funded by international students and exchange programs.

Dorothy Dowling 33:28

No, that's well said. And I do think that journey of learning from each other, and I've always really had great appreciation for the roles that I've had globally to be able to learn from people from different parts of the world, because I do think when you learn from someone, when it is their own country and they can bring that lens to a conversation, it just makes you. Have a much deeper understanding of some of the challenges that we all need to get better at. So thank you for sharing that with us, Fran. I really appreciate the thoughtful nature of all of the content that you've brought forward today and it's always an honor to be with you. So I appreciate it. If I may, this is the final part of the interview. So I also would like to thank and recognize our audience and say, if you've enjoyed this interview with Fran, I hope you'll also come to our website, DEI advisors. org, where you will see webcasts and podcasts from other industry leaders that I know will empower your knowledge and feel your spirit. But if I may thank you again, Fran, for all that you have meant to me through my career and for taking the time to share your wisdom with us today, it truly was a pleasure. Thank you for the invitation. And thank you for the time. Talk to you soon. Thanks, Fran. Thanks.