Hoda Tahoun, CEO & Founder, Maram Global, interviewed by Lan Elliott

Hoda shares the tool she uses to create more authentic, human connections.  She discusses current trends in executive recruiting and what hiring managers and top talent are looking for when interviewing.  She describes the key attributes needed for the top jobs, the science and art of building high performing teams, and she explains why agility is so important for success.

Transcript

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Lan Elliott 0:02

Hello and welcome to It's Personal Stories, a hospitality podcast that features hospitality leaders and is dedicated to empowering personal success. Today I'm really pleased to have my friend Hoda Tehoon on with us. And Hoda, we've known each other a long time and you have an amazing, impressive career. is the global practice leader of leisure, hospitality and luxury at Russell Reynolds associates. And we met when you were recruiting for a role. So I'm so glad that we each other all these years and welcome to the podcast.

Hoda Tahoun 0:41

Thank you so much for having me on land. I'm delighted to be here. We don't need to go into how many years we know each other, but it's been a very long time.

Lan Elliott 0:50

Long and wonderful. Yes. Hoda, I know your career has been really interesting and I've had the chance to follow parts of it with you, but could you share your career journey, perhaps the inflection points in your career, and if there were any factors that you think contributed to your success?

Hoda Tahoun 1:10

Yeah, absolutely. I think one of the things that people always find very fascinating when they learn a little bit about my story is that I have not been in the talent world the entirety of my career. So I actually started off as an investment banker, and I dabbled in real estate and hospitality as a banker and found it very fascinating. And it just made sense to me as a, as an industry, because I. Travel and I stay in homes and hotels, et cetera. So as a, as an area, just intuitively made sense. And when the financial crisis happened many years ago I found myself at an inflection point of my career and I was outside of the U S at the time I was living and working for a regional investment bank in Dubai and had decided to repatriate and come back to the U S. And so being out of the market as an investment banker in New York, In the middle of a financial crisis didn't really offer a ton of opportunities on Wall Street. So I needed to reinvent myself and it was at the advice of some really wonderful mentors that they asked me to think about what are you good at and what do you enjoy doing and it was in that exercise that identify that I identified. That there was room for me to probably make a switch in my career and the world of executive recruitment and talent consulting became incredibly appealing and as a way to marry things that I was good at and enjoyed doing. And so I made the switch 15 years ago and it's been an incredible career and wonderful journey. And the thing that always stands out for me is to, Invite people to ask themselves that question. What are you good at? And what do you enjoy? Because they don't always line up and sometimes in that exercise you can unlock things that could be really new and exciting for you in your career.

Lan Elliott 3:04

Yeah, that's true. We get so stuck in these are the things I'm good at. I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing and you forget to ask, do I actually like doing these things? Oh my God. Yeah.

Hoda Tahoun 3:16

And yeah. And I think a lot of times there's some. Conversation or a narrative of what we think is the career path that we're supposed to take. If we studied something, or we spent or invested a lot of time, I think 1 of the amazing things that we get to be a part of in today's world in 2024 and beyond is that you get to rewrite your story all the time and you get to remarket yourself and talk about your skill set and your expertise rather than, A former way, which used to be almost like a linear formula of what your career needed to be.

Lan Elliott 3:49

Absolutely. I love that ability to pivot and do different things. Let's turn to building a network because for a lot of people, networking sounds very scary and uncomfortable, but hospitality is really a relationship business. And especially because. People tend to hire and stay within hospitality, which I think is a little bit different compared to other industries. Yeah. How have you built your network and how do you network

Hoda Tahoun 4:18

in a way that suits you? Yeah. So I got some amazing advice. I don't know how many years ago, maybe let's call it two decades ago, a long time ago. And networking used to feel daunting, scary, overwhelming, actually at times, particularly at, industry events and conferences and things like that, where you walk in and it's a sea of people, particularly when you're at the early stages of your career and you don't really know people very well. And this one mentor gave me this advice and said, go to the event. With the goal of meeting and exchanging 20 business cards. And when you're done with that, give yourself a little bit of a break, tick the box, you've done it. And you can leave. And then after a while, in the beginning, you're building up the, the the courage to go out and talk to complete strangers, and then you realize in some of those moments and interactions. Most people are in the same shoes as you. They may not know people as well, and there will always be somebody, no matter how networked or how extensive their network is and relationships are, they're still walking into a room where they don't know everybody. I've kept that in the back of my mind over the years. I really do the best I can to connect with people on a human level and get to know the person, not necessarily the profession or the title, which can be a little tempting. Obviously we get to know people in conferences and events and work contexts where we're meeting the individual as the executive, maybe not the person, but I do the best I can to sort of. Find the humanness and connect in some way in terms of what they enjoy doing. What are their hobbies? What are their family dynamics? And I do, this is a little nerdy, but I actually take notes and keep them handy so that when I connect with somebody down the line, I can. I remember one or two things and it's not meant to be inauthentic. It's just a memory tool for me more than anything else. And then usually once or twice after I've had that point of contact with them, then it's organic. And I remember the spouse, the kids, the dogs, the vacations, all of that. And now all of a sudden, You are viewed as somebody who is authentic and that you are actually looking for a human connection. And then from there, the business context usually unfolds a little bit more easily. Yeah.

Lan Elliott 6:35

I love the idea of using that memory tool. I have that little cheat sheet as well. Yeah. I put it in their contacts. That's what I do. What the name of their kids are. If I have the ages, I try and put all of that in. Yeah. Just as teams for myself. Oh, there you go. Yeah. There you go. Yeah. Sports

Hoda Tahoun 6:53

team is another really good one. Yeah. And pets are as important. Pets. Yes. Pet names. Pet pets. Pets. Yes. Yes.

Lan Elliott 7:00

Christmas cards are great for that. I take them off the Christmas cards and I put them in my contacts and then I have them forever. Great way. And when I see them, I can be like, Oh yeah, what was that person's spouse's name? Let me remember. Yeah. And it just makes it a little bit more personal and it's great that people remember more than just your business title.

Hoda Tahoun 7:19

Very much yeah.

Lan Elliott 7:22

Let's turn to executive search because I'm really curious about your thoughts because it's evolved so much. It's evolved during the pandemic and that continues to evolve. For example, Amazon just called back their team. Five days a week in the office starting next year, which seems like Armageddon. That's a big change from what we've gotten used to. So I'm curious your perspective observations and what are the key trends you're seeing now? And what's in store for 2025?

Hoda Tahoun 7:57

The back to office is a massive trend and a very big shift, and it's happening across different industries. Hospitality is no exception. And so we're hearing that quite a bit from our clients. So whether it's. traditional hospitality, hotels, cruise, resort, timeshare even the health and wellness space. And I think that a lot of that is really being driven around the centricity of team building and mentorship and developing talent, as well as being closer to one another as decisions are being made for the business and ultimately for the customer. And while we've gotten really good at doing a lot of that remote, I think in larger organizations, what we're seeing is that there's a need to bring people together because you need almost the mind share and the brainstorming, which is going to happen in a human connection, which will happen in person. And there's only so much that we can do. I think video calls and teams and zoom and. All of these incredible tools are tools, but I don't think it's a substitute for the human connection and what actually happens when people are in a room together. And I think what we're finding is that as we are now seeing a wave of will likely come over the next 5 to 7 years in the hotel world, specifically around succession, as you think about, C suite succession, CEO succession, in order to have those discussions and to develop people who could be ready and, or think about where there are gaps in the organization, you almost really need to do that in person. And you need to have those conversations live. They can't be isolated over, a video call. So I think that is a very big trend that we're going to continue to see. And it's consistent, the the highlight that you share about Amazon is one of many that we're seeing out there with many different companies. It started with a. Tuesday through Thursday, and then it's Monday through Thursday. I don't know that every company will move to the five days a week, but I think that there is a need to bring back what great looks like, but allow for flexibility. Another area that we're seeing a lot of conversation is a massive and intrinsic focus on the customer redefining, how do you capture the customer's attention, their skills, But their attention. Everybody is vying for the customer attention and hospitality in every part of the journey. So roles and functions that are centered around how to solve for that experience and that UX. Are very high of the equation in terms of importance, and I would say the third piece is around operational excellence. So once you actually get the customer, are you treating them with a consistent operational excellence all the way through the journey and making sure that you solve for that, both from an experiential standpoint and delivery with the frontline associates, but also from a profitability standpoint,

Lan Elliott 10:44

are you finding that it's different for junior customers? More junior you hire all executive roles. Yeah. But at the lower level of what you work at versus the very top roles, are you finding that people are looking for different things or is it executives in terms of trends? What? Yeah. Executives is different. Senior

Hoda Tahoun 11:04

executives. It's interesting because I think there's a little bit of like, how do you bring the sauce back to the industry at the junior level and. The reality is that COVID has disrupted the industry, I think permanently to some degree, because people have realized that they don't need to have specific career paths, that sort of linear conversation that we were talking around earlier. And people now know that they can go become, TikTok influencer or social media sensation and perhaps have disposable income in a very different way. So there's almost a notion of how to Bring back why the hospitality space is attractive, why it is a great career path, but also identify some of those areas of flexibility. And so the younger or more junior talent needs almost more investment in that discussion and for them to understand. Their career pathing opportunities as they move up in the organization. I still think that there are some things that hold true, whether you're a C suite CEO or C suite, or C suite executive all the way down to more junior in your career is that we are still seeing and hearing a need for, leading with passion. Owning every part of what you do with excellence, showing up as a great colleague and a collaborator and leaning in and then finding ways to just continue to carve out value, not only for your role or function, but how do you extend that into the individuals that you're working with? So I think that will continue. I also think that we're almost done with this notion of here's your job description. And that's all you do. I think there's a nimbleness now and there's an openness also from a lot of organizations to want people who will lean across the aisles and work in different ways and be more thoughtful because it's no longer silo. The silos have come down and everyone's thinking about the business, albeit from their perspective, more holistically.

Lan Elliott 12:58

I love that. I think those silos are something that everyone has struggled with over the years. So yeah, we'll see them coming down. Yeah. Let's talk a little bit about the perspective of candidates who are applying for jobs. What are some of the skills or attributes that your clients are looking for? Looking for and is there something you don't see enough that candidates need to be focused more on in terms of personal development. That's really valued by managers.

Hoda Tahoun 13:32

Function aside, taking away whether it's the technical competency is that we're solving for a client. I think what every client is still very focused on is they want people who are the thinker and the doer. So they want the person that's. Enterprise wide or broader thinking in terms of how they can solve for business challenges, but also they want the person that's going to be the door. So the strategy got, the strategy guy or gal, but also the execution guy and gal in 1 person. And then the other piece is really around leadership. So leaning into leading teams, developing teams, mentoring teams, because I think that. Yeah. In the crunch of COVID, what happened is that a lot of those layers got taken out and everybody was just focused on the tasks at hand and not enough. Care potentially was put into developing people because it was, we were a little in the middle of a crisis in the pandemic. So a lot of that has come back. And a focus around excellence of leadership. I would say one thing that we probably don't see enough of is people really leaning into telling their story in a very profound way where they get to tell that they are strategist. An execution person, they're a team person and a relationship person. So that's 1 of the things I always encourage people to think about before they have a conversation in an interview context. And this is going to sound maybe a little interesting. I think that there's still room for people to be more authentic. And lean into whom they really are as people, not just the profession or the title. I think sometimes that doesn't really come out until multiple interviews in. And so it doesn't mean that you need to overshare in early stages, but I think that there's room for a little more person ability and less formal formality and in introductory conversations to really unpack who you are as a person. And then I always say this, I always tell individuals executive and otherwise. They are interviewing the organization as much as the organization is interviewing them. So it's wise for them to ask questions that are important to them around certainly goals and business objectives, et cetera, but also the culture and to really be honest with oneself around whether they truly are a culture fit with what that organization stands for and if they are, that's great. And if they aren't, that's great. Probably, warrants a reevaluation.

Lan Elliott 16:00

Yeah, absolutely. That's beautifully put. And a perfect segue into the next thing I wanted to ask you about, which is the other side of the coin. What makes hiring leaders stand out? What are people looking for? Because top talent remains very highly in demand. What are they looking for? Yeah when they're interviewing for roles,

Hoda Tahoun 16:25

so it's really important upfront to, really understand what a hiring leader is solving for. Yes, they're obviously solving for a specific role that's open and they're trying to, they're trying to fill that role, but what is the back story of why is that role open? Why is it this intersection of time that they are now solving for it in this way? Who are the individuals that this person is going to interact with the most? Who are the stakeholders that need to weigh in and we'll have an ultimate say. And I think all of those things are really important to understand up front, whether from our perspective as an executive search partner, or a talent partner, but also for the individual that's going in as a candidate. To interview, whether it's through a firm like our, through us or a firm like ours or independently, it's important to ask those questions. And I think sometimes people jump. Jump a few steps and are already trying to solve for selling themselves in the role without taking a step back to unpack some of these questions early on. 1 of my favorite questions to ask. Hiring leaders is how do you define success in 1 year? So if it's 1 year from now, and this person has joined the team and they're a terrific hire, what makes them a terrific hire in your view 1 year later? And I encourage. Candidates are sort of executives to ask themselves. That question when they're at, when they're interviewing, ask the questions. How do you define success? How has success changed perhaps the last couple of years? What's the culture, et cetera. So I think those are some of the things that are at the top of mind of a lot of the hiring leaders that we're speaking with.

Lan Elliott 17:58

Yeah. Is there anything you're finding that candidates are really drawn to right now?

Hoda Tahoun 18:05

Culture. A lot of candidates are asking that question up front. Some of it goes to that discussion that we just had around being in the office and what that means, but it goes beyond that. It's around how people will feel will there be a sense of belonging? What are some of the emotions that will be evoked while they're in that work environment? And ultimately, yes, it's an organization, but that organization is made up of individuals who are human beings. And so they are really leaning into, are these people that I want to. Partner with work with kind of be in the trenches with as we solve for the business objectives.

Lan Elliott 18:43

That's really interesting. You would think it was something that would have existed and been a question all along. And obviously you can go back 20 years and read an article and they probably told you to ask about culture, but then people never did because they were more interested in the job and the pay and all that. Yeah. Yeah. Name on your business card at the top. Oh yeah. But culture really. goes towards your everyday life and how happy you're going to be at that company. Do you think it's different with different generations? Are you seeing they're leaning into it differently?

Hoda Tahoun 19:15

I think part of it is generational and I think part of it is also just the times that we're in. So I remember when I, was very early in my career. Yes. I don't think I asked about corporate culture in my interviews when I was very, very early days, you joined a company because of the experience of the brand that it was going to give you the visibility and all that. And I think that all of those things are still true today. I think As important or moving up the important scale is culture. So yes, this is a great and iconic company, brand, et cetera, and reputation of leaders. But I also want to do my due diligence and understand the culture piece as well.

Speaker 3 19:55

Yeah,

Hoda Tahoun 19:55

absolutely.

Lan Elliott 19:58

Let's switch gears and talk about building high performing teams because you've built a number of them in your career, your teams that work with you, but you are also instrumental in helping your clients build high performing teams. High performing teams. Could you talk a bit about that? How do you approach this aspect of leadership? And is there that one thing that you're looking for when interviewing candidates?

Hoda Tahoun 20:24

Yeah, this is a little bit of The science and the art and a little bit of like how you make the sausage when you're building a high performance team. I think it always starts with who is at the helm of, of that team or function or organization because a lot of individuals are going to be attracted to join or to stay based on who is steering the ship. So to speak, so I think what we're finding today is that it's really important to think about it in terms of the strategic acumen, obviously the intellect, the experience and all of that. But people also want to be part of something they want to feel a sense of belonging. So it doesn't just have the culture component. There's also the, what is the business mission? This is aligned with what I want to do. And how can I be a part of it? So there's almost a legacy piece to it now that is part of the solve for the high performing teams. But I would say that what we're finding in a lot of the discussions that we have with clients, when it comes to high performance teams, it's what you would expect, just exceptional relationship building. Exceptional ability to set a strategy and to execute against it. Very high financial literacy across every function. So if it's a marketing team and they're high performing, they're all very capable to speak in metrics and have financials at their fingertips. They know how to solve for things that are unexpected or unanticipated. And I think that is a little bit of the world that we live in today, this notion that, Agility is super high. So are you able to be agile and quickly pivot such as in a pandemic? And we saw some winners and losers come out of the pandemic. I think the one winning attribute for companies that were able to be successful in the pandemic was agility. And then the second was resilience, I would say. There's a time limit on how much pressure you can put on an organization or a team or an individual in terms of pressure. And so the resilience, there's almost like a finite amount of time, and then you're going to face burnout to some degree. But the agility piece says a lot about the team and an organization.

Lan Elliott 22:32

That's so interesting. Could you talk more about the agility? Because it's not more about taking on different things being flexible. Is it about learning new things? What do you define as agility? Because it could go in a lot of different directions. It

Hoda Tahoun 22:48

could. It could. I think part of it is the, fail fast and recover. So if there's, if we take it in the business context, if an enterprise is moving in a certain direction their ability to be agile as an enterprise would mean that they're able to quickly flex and change and pivot based on the data and analytics that their customer base is telling them. In a leadership context, it is the ability to quickly. be agile to maybe reassemble people based on what they're really good at versus what you thought that they were good at. And spending time just being acutely aware and astute into making those decisions pretty quickly. So I think agility can be unpacked in a couple of those ways.

Lan Elliott 23:29

Thank you for

Hoda Tahoun 23:30

that. Yeah, of course.

Lan Elliott 23:32

We are getting close on time and one of our favorite questions is, what advice would you have to your younger self? So I'm curious, 22 year old Hoda, Oh, my God, advice would you offer to her? And one of the reasons we love this question, and I think it because it's because we evolve over our lives and our careers. And I think the advice you give yourself is different at different points in your life. Yeah. Yeah. At this point, what would you Yeah,

Hoda Tahoun 24:04

there's probably two pieces. One, and maybe this is something that some of the listeners who are our women would identify with letting go this notion of perfection, which I think a lot of women grow up with when we are in our earlier years, whether it's, being young girls or being a university, this notion of perfection. Whereas I think a lot of times our male counterparts learn to just fail fast and move on. So I would give myself the advice of let go of the perfection. And then the other piece I would say is take a little bit more risk. I thought it was a massive risk to change careers 15 years ago. In hindsight. It's such a. I was so still young and early in my career that I probably could have had more risk that I could have taken. But at that time, I still sat in a very linear approach to my career. And it felt very risky at the time to pivot into the world that I live in today. But so I'd probably take a little bit more, take a lot more, take a lot more risk early on and, toss the towel out on perfection because it doesn't exist.

Lan Elliott 25:11

It's true I think we do spend a lot of time maybe even waste a lot of time on Perfection because it seems to be that 80 20 rule. Oh, yeah It takes so much extra time to go from great to perfect almost the same amount of time as it takes to get You know, from zero to great. I know. Again, that amount of time to get to perfect. And what I've learned is that time could probably be better spent networking internally, externally, building relationships. Learning a new skill, learning a language, learning anything. Developing a mentor, a champion, all those things. Maybe perfect isn't really necessary, but it's really hard to understand that when you are so rewarded for it in the first part of your life when you're going to school.

Hoda Tahoun 25:58

Yep, exactly. That's a conversation for another day.

Lan Elliott 26:03

Also a good point. Hoda, thank you so much. You've had so much great advice that you've offered and insight into the executive search world and specifically where it is today. Do you have one final piece of advice for our audience? Keeping in mind that our podcast is dedicated to personal empowerment, what would you share with our audience who's looking to advance their careers?

Hoda Tahoun 26:27

I would say this, learn from many, but find your own voice and be yourself. Everybody else has taken, which is a quote I heard many years ago. And I think it just rings really true. So borrow, steal different things, but make it your own. That

Lan Elliott 26:45

is fabulous. Wonderful advice. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me on. Of course. Pleasure to talk with you. So thank you. Thank you so much. And for our audience, if you've enjoyed this conversation with Hoda, I hope you'll go to our website. It's personalstories. com for many more wonderful industry leaders and interviews with them about their careers and their insights. Thank you.