Cesar Wurm, SVP, Member Strategy & Development, Associated Luxury Hotels International

Cesar shares why listening is such an important skill in life and in business, and he delves into the story behind his book:  The Powers of Addiction: Finding Freedom in Acceptance and Recovery,  He discusses how advocating for oneself can help others support your goals and explains how focusing on really understanding people allows him to optimize individuals’ potential and build high-performing teams.  Cesar also encourages us to embrace opportunities to connect with others and how it has benefitted his career.

Transcript

Copy

Lan Elliott 0:00

Hello and welcome to It's Personal Stories, a hospitality podcast. My name is Lan Elliott on behalf of It's Personal Stories. And today I am so happy to have with us Cesar Wurm. He is a friend and a former colleague and is just wonderfully accomplished. If you are not familiar with Cesar, please go to our website where you can learn more about his many accomplishments. Welcome Cesar.

Cesar Wurm 0:31

Thank you, Len. Appreciate the kind introduction and for having me. Thanks again for having me. Super excited to be here.

Lan Elliott 0:38

Oh, I am so excited to talk with you and to learn more about you because you get to know people when you work with them, but not really stories. But I am curious about your journey and what were the inflection points along the way? And is there a through line or a factor that you think was really critical in your success?

Cesar Wurm 1:02

Yeah. Yes, I, yes, there are I think a few parts to this question. I think one, I've been very fortunate to somehow fall within this industry that you and I have had the pleasure to work in many years. It's a very fulfilling industry. I wasn't necessarily the best student coming up, so my options of schooling have but I got an experience to work in hospitality early on in my life, and I enjoyed the interactions, the atmosphere. So then at the time in Brazil was my first year of college where hospitality was becoming. An area of focus. I joined a college there, went to Switzerland, finished my schooling, and then got here to the U S to do really what I thought would be a one year internship. And 24 years later, I'm still here. And yeah, when I look back on my journeys, really a few things that resonate and I see a pattern, one is the. I always been surrounded by great people. I always been super fortunate to have great people around me, top alongside and, collaborating from other areas. So I always felt really lucky from that perspective and just being able to learn from these people, having people that really gave me opportunities. Sometimes before I was quite ready for those, but they knew that, figure out or had potential to eventually get where I needed to. And I always really, I always had the mentality of, I always say yes to the opportunity and then I worry, figure out how I'm going to, how I'm going to do it, right? Have some sleepless nights figuring out what did I do? But but then, it always works out somehow, right? It's not always easy, but you go along. So I think that's really some of the patterns that I see looking back that I reflect on. I

Lan Elliott 3:03

love the concept of saying yes, even when you're not sure that you're ready, but just diving into it and knowing that you'll figure it out as you go. I think a lot of us learn to build the airplane while it's flying and it's such a great skill. One of the things we hear from a lot of leaders is that curiosity is a big part of their path and the need to develop new skills as they advance in their careers. And I'm curious, where do you seek out resources when you're looking to grow as a

Cesar Wurm 3:39

leader? Yeah, that is a great question because it's interesting we have a daughter and she's 14 and When I look back as she grew, and then as I get older, you start seeing our curiosity tends to slow down a little bit from when you're like a young kid, you're always asking why, why, why, why is this, why is that, and then eventually we start just accepting some things as they are. So I think it's a very valid point where we have to intentionally You know, stay focused and always ensure that you're hungry to learn more. And I think, there's a few things that I focus on to do that. One is listening. It's like we've been talking, right? We work together and I think we have, we're surrounded in this industry by so many people that, you may work in an everyday situation or you may see them in a conference, whatever the case may be. But if you just really. Listen to what people say. It's amazing how much we can learn right from their journeys, from their experience. So that has been something that has been really helpful. And then really second is reading for the most part. I enjoy reading. I don't read. I usually tend to read things about leadership, psychology. These are things that are a little bit easier for me to relate than something that's a little bit more very data is strictly driven. So I enjoy that. So that, always gets curiosity on how to. How to communicate, how to engage with people. Then, of course, within our industry, there are so many good publications and blogs. So I always read those from time to time. But yeah, I think it's always important to keep that and always be open minded to other opinions and differences. Right? Because a lot of times we may be doing this for years. And sometimes there's a fairly newcomer. That joins and they may have fresh, wonderful perspectives that, we need to be open to it.

Lan Elliott 5:45

I have been the beneficiary of your listening skills. I remember when I had a very difficult project I was trying to figure out. And I remember my first meeting with you and how you listened so intently. And then your answers were so specific and spot on. They weren't just, this is what I normally say, that was really responding to what the issues were. Were that we were discussing, so I think that skill of listening really carefully can be really powerful and I love the reading the leadership books. Do you have a favorite one that you could share with our audience?

Cesar Wurm 6:21

Wow, I have a lot one that stuck to. My mind is I read many years ago is the leadership by John Maxwell that helped me a lot. My career as I was evolving and working with the same people in different capacities. So that has helped me a lot from a mindset perspective. But yeah, there was many around the growth mindset that I really enjoy that has been super beneficial. But yeah, that one jumps at me for some reason,

Lan Elliott 6:54

make a note to check that one. Thank you for sharing that. So speaking of books, you recently published a book called The Powers of Addiction, Finding Freedom and Acceptance and Recovery, which I find to be extraordinary how you would work as hard as I know you do and have the time to write this book, but tell me why you wrote the book and I know one of the themes in the book is that vulnerability is a superpower. So I am curious about that as well.

Cesar Wurm 7:28

Yeah. So I wrote the book in kind of two main stages. One was when I first started getting sober over 10 years ago. It was really, I start. Writing as if it was a book, but in reality, it was a lot of my own processing of the information because how I was carrying my life was I had to relearn everything I had to relearn what to do with my time, how to structure my day, you know what to do for a hobby that is healthy and so on. So that was very interesting because it's really. I look back my, entire life and retrospective, internalizing a lot of that. So I wrote that. For several months and then I stopped and then around COVID a friend of mine he wrote a couple of books and he made a comment that he had, he stopped drinking. So then I reached out to him, we reconnected and then I said, Hey, I wrote these years ago and. I had not never shared that with anyone except my wife and then I gave to him and he read and he called me right away and said, man, you gotta do something. There is a book here. So go finish it. So what's the nudge that I needed? And then, Thankfully, during that time, I was approaching my eighth year of sobriety. So I was in a very different stage where I felt, I felt ready to start sharing that because in the beginning, I was very ashamed. I had a lot of guilt, had my own bias about addiction. And so it's interesting that even though you experienced that, you have all these all these negative connections about someone that has addiction. And, but then I, how I really had the courage, to, to put it out there was two, two pronged approach. One, I was like, Hey, if I want things to change, if I want people to see that differently or understand a little bit better. It has to start people like me that we went through it, because if I don't do it, how can I expect anything to change? And then the second one is if I can help anyone avoid, some of the things I went through. Or even understand if they have a loved one that is going through a similar situation. Or just educate someone for whatever reason. I think that'll be worthwhile because I want to look back in my life when I'm older and say, okay, I, I made it. Some sort of positive contribution above and beyond. So

Lan Elliott 10:04

absolutely. And also the idea of helping other people after your experience. Talk more about vulnerability being a superpower. Because I post that at a family dinner recently, and I got a lot of pushback on this idea. So I'm curious to hear your thoughts big theme in your book. So

Cesar Wurm 10:28

yeah, it is. And listen, I am biased. So perhaps, you're taking the perspective off. or big believers. So perhaps the truth somewhere in the middle. But the, it's not easy to get there. And I think it's not comfortable too. And I think there is always, it's hard to strike a balance between being too open. Not being open enough and doing this in an authentic way. So I know that everyone is different and that's when I connect with people. I share that, listen, just because I do it and the way I do it, it's right for me at this stage in my life and what I believe in. But it's different for everyone. Some people are in different stages. They and that's okay. And that's okay. So I think at least what I tell people is at least you gotta be authentic and vulnerable with yourself, right? So whenever you look yourself in the mirror. That's you got to get there and that's that was not easy for me because for me to get sober, that was my first step, right? I had to acknowledge hey, you're not living the best way you can, right? If you keep doing this way, you lose everything. And, I couldn't look myself in the eyes and say to myself that I was proud of who I was. So that was the beginning of my journey. But then. As I work through my own things and start evolving, then I start opening up little by little. And then that's when I realized that, whoa, this is powerful because to your point, it's not super common, right? It's not every day that you meet someone that they will be vulnerable or share something above and beyond the usual business talk or friendly conversation. And the response that I got from people when I did that is was eye opening to me because then once you start that, I always got it back and from an expected people, right? People that are always very close with me then, because I think creates a sense of trust, a sense of comfort when they feel, okay, if he volunteered this information with me, then I feel comfortable, perhaps share. Little something or have a deeper connection. And I think a lot of people crave it, right? To your point, we were always so busy on our day to day. We're always have like meetings back to back. You barely have time to do anything. So I think when you have those few moments that you can have that connection, it can be impactful.

Lan Elliott 13:10

I do think there is a way that you can connect with someone if you're Ready for it. If they're vulnerable and sharing themselves, you can really connect in a much deeper way than the superficial way that we normally move through the world when we're busy and trying to get things done. And I think in terms of building teams and in terms of building. deeper relationships. It's a really important piece of it. Because I think we spent a lot of time trying to be perfect all the time.

Speaker 3 13:39

Yeah,

Lan Elliott 13:40

I definitely tried that. And I think just being a little more vulnerable with my struggles would have gotten me further than trying to be perfect. So I love the way you've talked about that.

Cesar Wurm 13:51

Yeah. I thought you were perfect when I was, I remember first time I met with you I was pretty intimidated. I said, man she's a smart woman. She knows what she's doing.

Lan Elliott 14:01

I know my corner of the world. I didn't know anything about your corner of the world. But I do think one of the things you do really well is develop connections with people and relationships with people. And it's very easy to gravitate towards you. You always have a really warm smile. And I'm curious if developing a network, is that something that's comfortable for you, how do you do it in a way that's authentic to you?

Cesar Wurm 14:33

Yeah, I never had this asked this way. It's I developed this from a very good space and a very not so positive space. So let me tell you that the good space is when I lost my mom when I was 12. But up until then, like we were super close and she was very, very warm. So and she was She got along with people very nicely. So I think I learned a lot and emulate a lot from that. Just that early exposure in life and so on. And that I was carried through everything in life, right? From just connecting with people, being able to just understanding other people's point of view. Like a lot of times it's very rare that I voice very strong opinions, and can't. Get along with someone, right? Because I always try to empathize and see where people are coming from, especially now, more so now that I went through my journey of sobriety because you understanding how sometimes people are just not in a great space, right? So it's not necessarily a reflection of you or anything like that. And maybe just a space where they're at. So I think just having, understanding that can help a lot, but then I also, I'm ashamed to say this, but a lot of these also came with my addiction because you become very good about navigating situations. And so you develop a lot of these skills as well that at the time I was using, to survive, but sustain my lifestyle. When, in reality, wasn't for a healthy reason or the right reason but I think that's where it becomes the superpower, right? Because the ability to connect. When you're doing that for the good and the right intent, the right reason, it is great. And and I'm just really enjoy connecting with people generally speaking. So yeah, it always came naturally to me.

Lan Elliott 16:38

It's wonderful to have your mother to remember her and emulate that.

Speaker 3 16:42

Yeah.

Lan Elliott 16:43

That's a wonderful way to think about it.

Speaker 3 16:47

Yeah.

Lan Elliott 16:49

Let's talk a little bit about mentors and champions. And. I'm curious if you've had them in your career and how important do you think they are and how does one go about finding a champion?

Cesar Wurm 17:06

Yeah I've had and continue to have it. And it's funny because some of them, it became organic. So I have friends that I have worked, as far as 20 plus years. that they were my mentors then and then they became my mentors and they still today, even though it's not like a traditional official mentor, but it's just, they become my big brothers, big sister and just really helped me continue to develop even in a kind of informal way. And then from time to time, I look for. People either because of my role or whatever the goals are in the next few years, I really try to surround myself with people that can provide a different perspective than I have, because I, I know the things that I do well, and I know my strengths, but I also know where I'm not good at and the things that I, it's just not my forte. I'm not wired that way, or it takes me a lot of effort to do something well. So I like to get it. people that will bring that value. But then also that I know they will give me honest and unfiltered feedback, but from a good place, right? Not to hurt me or to put me down. But so I always like to do that. And one, it's interesting someone that has been like super important my entire life is really my wife Laura, because she knows me so well, not only from a work standpoint, but also from a personal that, she calls me on things and she holds me accountable. So I love that because, and I have to listen to her, right? If I don't listen, then we have a problem.

Lan Elliott 18:52

It is great to have those people around you who can tell you really how it is. Sometimes it's not always what you want to hear, but to understand that sometimes you need to hear it, but to find those people that you feel safe to hear those things from and that they have your best interest.

Cesar Wurm 19:13

Yeah. What about you?

Lan Elliott 19:17

I think I struggled with finding a mentor because I really tried to find someone who looked like me and in and hotel real estate. There were not many people.

Speaker 3 19:28

No,

Lan Elliott 19:29

I wasted a lot of time when I could have found mentors that now I think about it more like a patchwork quilt and I have mentors that help me with different things. To put together the different aspects and the different needs that I have. And I reach out to different people for different things. That's probably more appropriately called a personal board of directors, but I found that worked better for me rather than waiting for that one perfect person. And, but there's all different ways that people can get there, but so valuable, right? For seeing your blind spots because you don't know what you don't know. And I've done much better to, instead of trying to be perfect to. Have asked for help.

Cesar Wurm 20:11

Yeah, that is great.

Lan Elliott 20:15

Wanted to move on to advocating for ourselves, because this can be a challenge for some people to ask for that thing that they want for what might be a raise. It might be a promotion, and I know I've been guilty of that as well. I wanted something and then I didn't tell anybody. People don't read minds, so I'm curious. What advice would you offer to people who are struggling to find their voice and what is the right way to ask for something that you want?

Cesar Wurm 20:50

Yeah, that is a great one because it is hard. I, to your point, like you I struggle with it. It's, for many people, it doesn't come naturally because you think you're bragging about yourself or you're being I don't know, too aggressive is the right word, but you're, you're a lot of times, I think, at least to me. Advocating for yourself almost becomes a negative connotation when it shouldn't, to your point, is like I think if you approach this from a good space, from a logical space and a value proposition, I think, a lot of times people will expect you to do that, and I think you'll be surprised the support you're going to get, at least the few times that I did that for myself. Again, very positive response, right? I think you, the only tips I have is just make sure that you have clarity on the ask, right? And that, that is somewhat within reality, within reason that you're asking for something that, CEO of HG tomorrow, right? That's not going to happen. But if you say, Hey, listen, I would like to get here. I think that in. In a few months, I might be ready either for project or the next step and and this is why so I think at least even if you get a not now type of response, that's okay, right? Because it opens up the door for conversations to have a more solid path. So both parties have clarity and then also shows what's the word initiative. I chose that you want something that you're invested. So I think there's a lot of positives. And I think and you would welcome your feedback. But especially from when I started to today, I think conversations about salary compensation, just. Recognition, generally speaking, I think is much more open and there's an appetite to be somewhat much more imperative than before. That was very uneven. And so I think that a lot of times that will be welcomed. even if you don't get a, an immediate yes, I think there's a lot of good that comes to it. I

Lan Elliott 23:11

absolutely agree. And I think sometimes it helps people understand what you're aspiring to do, and then they can be helpful along your path. If they understand where you're trying to go, maybe they can help you get there. Maybe it's not now, but at least they can say, Hey, you want to go from A to B. This doesn't Get you immediately there, but we can give you these projects that are going to set you up better for success.

Speaker 3 23:37

And

Lan Elliott 23:38

so I think sharing what you're looking for is a little bit vulnerable, but it is also a way for people to help you.

Cesar Wurm 23:47

Yes. Yes. And one, one thing that I learned the hard way earlier in my career, and even like today, I really have to. Purposefully think about it. I think it's important for people to Kind of share, right? Some of their efforts, some of their contributions, not, got to be in a thoughtful way again, and something that is of value that provides information to your partners, people you work with, but, it's not good when there is a void where people say, Hey what Caesar does, right? Or what is his value for the organization? If there is a void there that people can't articulate, It's not going to be most likely a positive void because people usually goes to Hey, I'm doing X, Y and Z. So if there is anything that you, someone can help develop from that perspective and ensure that there is a narrative there that is, not noise, but real. I think that will be really beneficial as well.

Lan Elliott 24:51

Yeah, that's a really good point that people do need to know what you do so that if they're going to speak up on your behalf, it's really helpful if they know what you do.

Speaker 3 25:01

Yes.

Lan Elliott 25:03

Let's talk about building high performing teams because you led a number of teams I know at IHG and at other places. How do you go? About doing that, because you come in and in your area in the commercial area of the business, people are looking for you to really help make a difference for the hotel's top line, and you either inherit a team or you have to build a team. How do you approach that? And, what do you look for when you're interviewing for people when you're building a team?

Cesar Wurm 25:40

Yes, eat. So I think whenever coming to either a new position or a situation thing is your first question is a little bit off. Learning and listening, I think, before you can figure out what the next steps or where to go, I think is great to have a good sense. Of course, the data, the numbers, you got to know that really well. But then also understand the culture, the each individual player, what's their strengths, what they bring. And, is everyone kind of being optimized? And contributing, to the team's performance, because I think once you understand the team players, and I think that's where a lot of my wings in my career came is from really understanding people and understanding what's their strengths, what drives them and then just Over, take all the hurdles so they can focus on just being their true selves and then their best selves. And it's amazing, right? When people feel that they're supported, they have the direction of where we're going and what they, what part they're playing on it and getting constant reassurance. And whenever something doesn't go wrong you just address quickly and move on. That's when I found that things. But a lot of times, for example, on, on hiring, I always try to see what we may have the biggest opportunity at and try to find someone that fits that, but I got many things wrong, right? I know a lot of times I thought that, Hey I'm a good interviewer and, I'm becoming better, but there's always opportunity. A lot of times you believe you hired the right person and then end up not being the case. And then but I think, just having. Open, honest conversations up front is very helpful where you ensure that, hey, if this works, you see the right fit for both parties. So I don't know if I really answered your question. No, I

Lan Elliott 27:44

think you did. And I love the idea of really getting to know the players so that you can figure out if you can figure out what drives people, you can really figure out how to motivate them and make sure they're in the right roles doing the right thing. And ensuring that everybody's moving in the same direction on accomplishing what you need

Cesar Wurm 28:02

to. Yeah. Because I am like, again, on the, I tend to err on the human side, perhaps too much, right? I think you're going to have leaders that is very system oriented and process driven. I'm a little bit more to the other side. And I think regardless of how technology evolves and I think, listen, that's always going to be a benefit to that. But I think the end of the day, what really makes or break or really take something to the highest levels will be people. And having that ability to influence the situation, whatever the case may be. So that's where I spend a lot of my focus and try to. Deliver.

Lan Elliott 28:44

Caesar, you know how much I enjoy talking with you, but the end of our conversation and I had to final quick questions for you.

Speaker 3 28:54

Okay.

Lan Elliott 28:55

First is what advice would you give to your younger self to 22 year old Caesar starting his work life? What advice would you give that person?

Cesar Wurm 29:08

Be you. I struggle a lot in early my career trying to think what other people thought about me, right? You'll never know what they're thinking anyway, and it's not your business. So, just be yourself. Try to get more comfortable in your own skin. That's when usually you tend to be at your best. Yeah, that's what I'll tell my. Younger self.

Lan Elliott 29:33

It's great advice. It's easier said than done. Yes, it is. Great advice. Definitely a journey to do that. And one last questions. Caesar, you've offered so much great advice through your journey and keeping in mind that the mission of its personal stories is around empowering personal success. Do you have one final nugget of advice for our audience who are looking to advance their careers?

Cesar Wurm 30:01

Yes, my advice would be to really embrace the opportunity to connect with others. And what I mean by that to your question about curiosity, take advantage to connect with people, learn about them, learn from them. And you'll be surprised not how much you grow, how much you can help others along the way, and then how much eventually you'll get in return. Cause a lot of the opportunities I got in my career and in my life, weren't immediate responses or from engagement, but are 10, 20, 30 years ago, and then eventually it comes. So that is a wonderful journey because it. The surprises never stop, and I think people can benefit a lot from it.

Lan Elliott 30:52

That was wonderful advice. I wish I had that advice when I was 22 years old, by the way. Thank you so much. These are for being on. I always love how warm and welcoming you are. And I definitely see all the parts of really connecting with people authentically that you do so well. I could see why that's a big part of your success. So thank you for being on today.

Cesar Wurm 31:17

Thank you. And thanks again for everything that you're doing for our industry for this developmental conversations, because we need more and more of this right for younger generations to come. And so you're doing an amazing job. Thank you again

Lan Elliott 31:34

and for our audience. If you've enjoyed this conversation with Caesar, I hope you'll go to our website. It's personal stories dot com, where you can find many more in industry leader interviews. Thank you, Caesar.

Cesar Wurm 31:47

Thank you.