Becoming What's Next

As I contemplate what I want to do when I am no longer a full-time executive, I'm wrestling.  I'm thinking a lot about how I'll want to balance "purpose," recreation, hobbies, learning... and just sitting somewhere in the shade with a nice view having a mircrobrew - sometimes alone, mostly with family, friends and my dog.  

This episode with the authors of Revealing your Next Season gives examples of how others with significant leadership roles transitioned to their next season - how they thought about it and what they did.  I found it a deeply helpful conversation, and I think you will too.  

Read my Blog called Rules For Being Stubbornly Young and let me know what you think!

Email your thoughts at dave@stubbornlyyoung.com

Check out where it’s all happening on the Stubbornly Young website

Thanks and looking forward to hearing how you’re remaining stubbornly young!

Transcript

Welcome to the Stubbornly Young Podcast for people in their 50s, 60s and beyond who have a mindset that drives them to stay engaged in the world and relevant to the younger people in their lives.

I'm Dave Tabor.

I haven't got this whole stubbornly young thing fully figured out.

I'm frequently thinking about how to do this, what to learn, what to try, what to think.

To that end in this episode, I'm joined by Leslie Bracksick, Ph.D., and Mark Linsz.

They are the authors of Revealing Your Next Season, Reflections on 10 Years of Supporting

Leaders Transitioning from Intense Careers to Fulfilling Next Seasons.

They also lead a consulting practice called Your Next Season.

Leslie, Mark, glad you're with me on Stubbornly Young.

Thank you.

Great to be here.

Absolutely.

Thanks for having us, Dave.

You're welcome.

The three of us are in different rooms.

Listeners, we step on each other.

That's just what's going to happen.

But together, you have built this business called Next Season.

Talk about where that came from and how you serve your clients now.

We recognize the need that executives we were working with were facing around what happens

next.

And the recognition that they're whatever this retirement thing is just doesn't really have

any meaning anymore.

But really, life is really a series of seasons and that we transition from season to season

in our lives.

And this is a big transition when you transition out of your major career to what you're going

to do next.

Worthy of noting, worthy of understanding, and worthy of supporting people through.

And that's where we came to really name it your next season.

What is special about how leaders who had say intense and you say that intense careers

might approach their next season versus people who perhaps had less intense careers?

You know, I think there are a lot, probably more similarities and differences between

both.

But with intense careers, you tend to have your identity and your job.

You tend to work crazy amount of hours.

You give up a lot of the things that you really need in the next season.

And so, you know, often we'll hear people say, I worked so much that I didn't have hobbies.

I don't really know what my passions are because I've worked so hard.

My friends are work friends because what I've done is worked.

I don't have a network because people come to me and so on and so on.

So everything you need to be to really transition into that next season, you've given up because

that intense career.

And so that's one of the real differences that we see and one of the things we see pretty

consistently.

Yeah.

And you said they're more in common, but you just described some really different kinds

of elements to people who've had.

There are some differences.

Yeah.

I mean, what's in common between people who have less intense careers but still are finding

challenges with this next season?

You know, one of the things I would say is that in common is the view that you can have

an incredible purpose in that next season.

I think there's this view, there was this view when I was growing up that once you hit

65, 60, 65, and you retire, you're done.

You do nothing.

And your life is kind of, you're kind of on the line down.

I think it's the opposite.

I think you can, you've learned so much.

You have ways to matter what kind of career you've had and take that.

You can have an incredible impact.

So I noted in the forward of your book, I actually read the forward.

I don't know why I could almost sometimes just read that and be done, but I read your

whole book, which I really enjoyed.

And in fact, I'm going to show listeners if I want to make sure we get a shot of it,

play with your beautiful book.

And I noted in the forward an attribute of the best leaders is that they are energized

by change.

So how does that set the stage for your book and even for this discussion?

Well, they are open to new purpose, to new to change really.

And when we talk about even the next season, it's really a transition out of a big job

is your first next season, but there will be many other seasons.

And that's why we call it your next season, because it's not just one big long season.

There are many things that get triggered by other things.

So we find that executives that embrace change and are open to change, continuous learners,

those that are open to redefining themselves to thinking of their superpowers and new way.

Those are the ones that find true joy and purpose in their next season.

Well, there's a great example.

Oh, go ahead, Mark.

I was going to say, maybe I give just a 30 second of my story because it fits exactly

in what Leslie was talking about.

But I spent 27 years in Bank of America.

And I made the decision to retire really because of I had spent so much time away from family

and so much time during the financial crisis, just going, you know, working on stop.

I knew I always wanted to start a business, but my initial thought was start something

in financial services.

That's what I am.

I am a financial services person.

And Leslie came to me with this idea of starting my next season.

And at first, it was like, but that's not me.

And when we had the conversation about what we wanted the business to be and the impact,

it kind of widened my aperture of, wait a second, what I have done is different than

just I'm more than just a financial person, you know, and experiences are more than that.

And I pivoted and made a change.

And that's what we see in people that ability to pivot and make a change.

So do you feel like, you know, normally we think of the next season, I think we think

about like nonworking kind of thing, a not a transition to not working, but you've transitioned

to a different working.

Yeah.

And I would say just the clients that we work with executives that we work with, we see

kind of three groups of people, I would say.

One is there are some people that just say, I don't want to do anything.

I really want to focus on, and I give you, I want to focus on families.

I want to focus on friends.

I want to focus on the things I couldn't focus on in my career.

We see probably the largest group that says, I want a portfolio of activities.

I want to stay busy.

I want to have impact.

I want to teach you to university.

I want to be on a board.

I want to be on a board of a nonprofit.

I want to, you know, I want to get back.

I want to mentor.

I want to, but I want to have an portfolio of activities that gives me flexibility.

But we do see a portion of executives when they retire, they say, I really want to do

something else.

And I feel like I've got the energy and the enthusiasm to do something else.

But I want to do what I want to really be thoughtful about what I want to do.

And so we really see all three of those.

Those three buckets.

So let's talk about a shift in identity.

I mean, one example in your book is Mark Schaken, who retired from bankruptcy law, became a

nonfiction writer and then wrote fictional thrillers.

And I love his book.

He's a great guest on stubbornly young.

We talked a lot about how to manage a shift in one's identity, not just in our own mind,

but also how on others perceive us when we make these changes.

You want to talk about that?

Sure, it's not uncommon that an executive becomes known by a job title or by a role that

they played.

When they introduce somebody, what do you do?

I am treasurer of Bank of America.

I am this, I am that.

So it just becomes their identity and who they are in their community and not only just at

work, but outside of work.

So when that goes away, there's this stutter step of who am I now?

And how do I introduce myself?

And it really, we work a lot with clients to help them define themselves, not by the

job they held or the title of the job, but by their interests, their passions, what they

care about, what they think about and helping them to realize who they are outside of work.

So what might that sound like if someone had been even say like a bit of male carrier or

a cabinet maker?

You know, what might that sound like differently?

And I have spent my life working with wood and whatever they're doing next.

I'm now teaching children how to work with wood or, you know, I, it's part of it is defining

themselves, not by their title, but by what they do.

So I love to mentor young people or I, you know, Mark, I wanted to start a new business.

I wanted to be an entrepreneur.

So he wasn't defined by being, you know, a finance executive, but he was a person who

knew how to solve problems, who knew how to love making decisions, who love to lead,

who was drawn toward the unknown who could, you know, take chaos and create order.

That's who Mark is, you know, that and that, you know, that identity.

So we talk about Dave, the idea that the, the arrow, the body of the arrow was unchanged.

That's your career history, but the point of the arrow changes.

So you might take those gifts and that strong, you know, that wisdom and now apply it to

leading a nonprofit or to volunteering or teaching or, you know, just being more present

with your family.

Well, you know, I was struck by, and I'm going to turn to you in a second mark.

I was struck by Mark shaken because I'm like, I kept hammering on him.

Like don't people think you are just sort of ridiculous going from a bankruptcy attorney

to writing thriller novels, you know, and, and I actually thought, well, is this going

to be, was it, was it somewhat embarrassing to tell people that this is what you want to

do even before he was successful at it?

So yeah, I mean, you must encounter that all the time.

It is hard because you, and let's go back to what Leslie was saying.

What is the first thing you're asked when you meet most people?

What do you do?

You know, you walk into a party.

What do you do?

All of a sudden, you're not doing what you do.

And that's universal amongst all of us, you know, we all hand, you know, and so then what

do I, what do I do?

Because often I found myself when I even when I started the company, I would say I am, I

am my former job was this because it was my identity.

Yeah.

And then really kind of it had to reshape because, you know, to what I was doing now

and to really who I was versus the job that defined me.

Yeah.

Is there a sense that people value you differently or maybe not you too, but, but value some people

differently because of this change of path?

I'll speak for me.

I think there was this sense that people would value me differently.

I think what surprised me is that people didn't value me differently.

Actually I would say in some cases value me more.

And I think the fact that the, you know, the impact that my next season was having the

type of company we built, the, you know, the care that we have for our clients, you know,

I'll have people come up and say, that's absolutely amazing, you know, and I love that

you've completely changed your career.

I didn't expect that.

I expected everybody to focus on my first career.

But I think there is this feeling that it, that's what they're going to focus on.

And it's not going to be the same, but it's, I think sometimes even better.

Yeah.

Leslie, do women and men see shifts in identity differently?

Do they handle it differently?

You know, I don't think there's absolutes that go by gender lines.

I think in general women are known with a broader set of titles than just their job

title.

You know, they're often the mother, their, their work outside of the job on behalf of

the family or with the children.

I think they're, their portfolio starts earlier, you know, without choice.

They play a key role with the extended family.

And so that remains, you know, that, that, you know, precedes the big career change.

Yeah.

But I think when you love what you've done and you have devoted your life to that, that

change and that loss of identity is hard, regardless of gender.

What about age?

I think, you know, the good news is I think people see themselves as having more runway

now.

And so they're energized by it.

I have yet, we've been at this for 11 years.

I've yet to meet the client that thinks they're about to perish, you know, and that, you know,

that are, that are kind of feeling as though their mortality is, you know, imminent.

It's quite the opposite.

I think they're energized by how well they feel, you know, they're, and even their, their

excitement to focus on their health and their well-being and to value that differently and

to be able to give time and space to that.

Yeah.

Well, last thought along these lines.

And that is, I loved in your book the idea of moving through a mental transition using

the phrase for now.

And so listeners, this is like a tip in the middle of the podcast.

This is like a tip.

So explain that and how to use it.

Leslie, I'll let you explain that.

Sure.

It's, we really encourage our clients to use the words for now at the end of the sentence

when they're, when they're asked or even when they think about what they're going to

do next.

So I'm going to explore nonprofit options for now.

I'm going to volunteer and do this work for now.

I'm going to go.

I'm going to explore some boards.

I'm going to, because of this back to our first, your very first question, Dave, because

it is a first next season, once they're in it, it's like a tree and new branches open

up and they meet new people and they discover new possibilities.

And some of them might be actually more interesting to them than the ones that were presented

initially when they started down that one branch.

And we, we say, take a hundred percent structure, have a plan and be a hundred percent flexible,

be willing to shift your plan because you can.

Yeah, that whole for now seems like it'd be empowering.

So you don't have to actually make hard decisions, right?

It is.

It really is.

And what you, one thing, quickly, that people say is when you go back to the introducing

at a party, you walk up to somebody at a party and you, and you don't, you say you don't

know what you're going to do.

Or everybody wants to tell you what you're going to do then, which can be really tough.

Yeah.

And you should do this.

You should do this.

But the fore now gives you that freedom.

Exactly.

Exactly.

Like you said.

Yeah.

Question for you too.

I mean, I think about, and I'm still working full time and, but I can see with the day

when I won't be and leaders are used to providing sort of wise input, being valued for their

input and so forth.

And you have an example in your book from Leon Currit.

And she's a former CEO of Boeing Defense, Space and Security.

I mean, a massive title.

Right.

And this whole idea of being able to provide wisdom and so forth, like I hope I can.

And I want to, like I've learned all this stuff.

I've become so valuable.

I want to share it.

I want to part of it on my friends and family.

But where do I put that?

Where did Leanne put that?

Leanne put it.

I mean, that's exactly what she saw in her next season work was where do I channel this

energy, this calm, calmness under pressure, this wisdom.

Where do I, where do I put that?

And we see this with a lot of our clients that are likely in that just have a lot of

guests left in the tank.

And they want to, they want to make a difference with it.

So Leanne is on three public boards, she's advising on a PE board.

She's an executive at residence at her alma mater, Emory Riddle.

She has received several national awards lately from Aaron Space.

And she's a my next season advisor.

She actually, you know, about a year into her transition, you know, because it was,

it was quite a, quite a, you know, dramatic transition for her, you know, was wow, how

much people would learn from her experience and the wisdom she had amassed in that process.

And I think she, if she were here, she would say she's as happy or happier than she's ever

been.

But it wasn't, I mean, it wasn't a here to there.

And that's the thing that there is a, you know, there's a crossover.

And it's sometimes very painful.

Well, and then Mark, there's, and they kind of almost seem different to me that you have

another example, Jerry Thomas, who is the former chief diversity officer, Bank of America,

who talked about recalibrating how one views their value.

So is that different from what you just explained with Leanne?

I wouldn't say that she recalibrated her value.

I think it truly is her next season.

I think she takes all of what she gained, her skinned knees, her successes, her joys.

And I think she's repurposed them in new ways.

And she's finding tremendous joy.

She even entered a cake into, you know, a county fair where she lives because it's something

she had always wanted to do.

You know, we had a client very early on, she was one of the top executives at Vanguard.

And when we really talked to her, like, what is it that you are most excited to do?

She said, you know, five years ago for my 50th birthday, my four daughters gave me a

sewing machine.

And it's still sitting in the box and collecting dust.

And they gave me that sewing machine because they always heard me say I wanted to learn

how to quilt like my grandmother.

And so part of what we helped her do was to find, you know, near where she was going to

be living, where she could take lessons on that particular brand of sewing machine to

learn how to quilt.

And that was so thrilling for her.

And she was being sought after by big boards and it was really in her mind more of the

same, but which she really wanted was to honor something that was deep in her heart that she

had never really been able to give the time and space to.

So I think there's things like that that emerge that can be honored in your next season.

And that's part of the specialness of the transition time.

Yeah.

Mark, you, I don't know which one of you wrote this in the book.

But you referenced learning from your younger's, which I thought was super cool.

Because like, how do you juxtapose that with sharing wisdom?

To me and Leslie and I both believe in this and a few things that I'll say here.

One is being a lifelong learner is incredibly important and it's incredibly important as

we as we grow older to continue to learn.

One of the things we hear that particularly executives miss or leaders miss is that intellectual

curiosity that constant constantly being intellectually challenged.

One of the great ways to learn that we often don't take advantage of is from the younger

people, you know, and you know, whether it be, you know, we spend time with our team on,

you know, little things, how to do better PowerPoint presentations.

Or not to exactly or the use of AI, you know, pulling in people with AI expert expertise.

You know, I joined the board of a startup that was an AI startup, started a young person

that I was mentoring and I did it so that I would learn, you know, to help him, but to

learn about artificial intelligence.

That constantly desired to learn, but realizing the younger generation can teach us an awful

lot.

And that's something we both really believe in.

Yeah, I'm glad to hear that.

I'm certainly on board with that thinking.

I mean, that's one of the whole premises is of stubbornly young is to stay relevant to

the younger people in our lives.

And learning from them, I think is probably a really good way to do that.

There's so much to be gained.

I mean, that's a generation that's hardwired to collaborate.

You know, I come from a generation where the companies would spend millions of dollars

in TQM trying to teach people to work together and share ideas.

You know, the younger generation is their hardwired to collaborate to share ideas and

to believe that they can learn from others and take that and apply it.

I mean, just that alone is worth so much.

But that's just the beginning.

There's so much to be learned and gained.

You have another example in the book and listeners, the book is really interesting in

its format because each chapter is essentially some principles in a case study, which is

really a wonderful way to digest this content.

And another example is Doug Parker and all these people are really impressive.

Doug Parker was past chairman and CEO of American Airlines and his next season had a

really strong focus on public service, giving him new passion and purpose.

You've described others in that way.

But to what extent, based on all you've seen in this space, all the consulting you've

done is serving others like a key ingredient, almost a requirement to life satisfaction

in a next season.

Well, Mark and I believe it is.

Personally, hit a personal level and we certainly, we each and together live our life and run

our company with that belief.

We definitely have people that come through that don't share that belief in the exact

sense and in no way do I think that means they won't find joy or happiness.

But I would say the vast majority of people are excited to give back in bigger small ways.

And I'll tell you something, Dave, for a lot of executives, they've been pitched to give

money as a way of giving back for their careers.

But that's not what they want to focus on.

They want to volunteer or they want to make a difference in something that they care about

and to bring their efforts and their capabilities to that.

And Doug is a shining example of that.

And we do see that.

I'm going to tell one quick story because I think it's really relevant.

But we do see that consistently and people wanting to get back.

At the beginning of the book, we talked about a client, Liam McGee.

He was a good friend of mine, Leslie coached him.

He was the CEO of Hartford.

He had to retire early because of illness.

And one of the things he wanted to do was mentor a non-for-profit CEO.

And so he came to us and said, I'd really like to mentor a non-for-profit CEO.

He mentored a non-for-profit CEO that she was a first-time CEO.

She'd never dealt with a board.

She had just received a grant from a large corporation to go from a regional non-profit

to a national non-profit.

And he would spend like a day a month with her going through and helping her with strategy,

helping her to, you know, how do you work with a board, thinking through all these things.

He was very vulnerable, very honest, right up until the time when he passed away.

In fact, I think the week that he passed away at his hospital room, he spent half a

day with her.

And after every meeting they had, he would write us an email and say, that changed my

life.

He changed my life, his advice.

And he would write and text after every meeting and say, thank you so much.

I'd love to give it back and make an indifference.

And that's what we see pretty consistently.

But it's such a great story of that.

Yeah.

Well, let me ask you this question because it's even an awkward question to ask.

And that is this.

Like, is there some sort of value continuum around purpose?

I mean, what, you know, you just described a great example of somebody wanting to get

back.

There are people who want to feed starving children.

And there are others whose purpose stated when they stop working is to have a single

digit handicap.

So is there judgment around that?

Should people feel as though, wow, if I expanded my desire to give back, my life would be better?

I mean, how should we think about that?

I think sometimes people will state something like a single digit handicap as a goal.

But when you listen for the sentences two through five, and because I love to golf with

my son, or because it's something I get to do with my oldest friends, or, you know,

because I do a golf outing with my, you know, there's, there's usually something deeper.

Yeah.

And so they don't, it may not be what's motivating them.

And they don't always, they're not always self aware of the role that it's actually playing

and drawing them toward that.

But I almost always will hear, because they'll say, I really want to do this.

And, and you say, why?

And they'll say, well, because that gives me the chance to do these things, you know, or

yeah, and I always, you listen a little bit longer.

It reveals itself that there's usually some deeper meaning or purpose to the activities

beyond just what it's at the surface level.

With the same be true of someone like Mark shaken who, you know, like, why do you want

to write a novel?

You know, I mean, do people, do people tend to even even something that seems profound?

Like I want to mentor a nonprofit leader.

Is there something deeper that you talk about with these folks?

Oh, yeah.

I mean, we're Doug Parker's idea for breaking down barriers came from what I mean, he had

certainly cared about that initially, but where that surfaced in the process was an exercise

that we work with clients on.

It's called the what bugs me list.

But we say, what bugs you?

Like, what really gets under your skin?

Like when you walk by a homeless person, does that stir your heart?

You know, do you wake up and see snow in July and think what's going on with climate?

Like, what is it that troubles you?

What is it that worries you?

What what lives in your heart that you really care about?

And it was that and Doug said, I'll tell you what less than 3% of all commercial pilots

are persons of color.

You don't even need to have a college degree to be a commercial pilot.

You need about $100,000 to go to flight school, but inside a 10 years, you'll be a millionaire.

So if we had more pilots of color, it would change the economic landscape of our country.

So he had taken attempts to work at that from his chair at American Airlines, but really

was not successful.

And so it was that identification of being an emotional and issue that he cared about

that led him to take the next steps and put a white paper and a business plan and recruit, you know,

Yeah.

You know, and to go after that.

And and it's amazing what they've done already.

Wow.

Mark, let me ask you about a couple of tactical things.

One is, and you've got a chapter on partner framework.

And we could do a whole other session on just that.

So we can't get it all of it.

But here's what I want to talk about.

That you're referring to really a deep discussion with one's partner about six or seven topics of a next season.

So again, we're not going to a whole framework.

I mean, talk about the need to align or at least communicate around next season with one's partner.

I think it's incredibly important.

And I think that often the retiring person thinks about what they're going to do, but they don't think about what their spouse or partner is how it's going to

impact them or even often getting their input into what they're going to do and having that communication.

And sometimes we don't even know how to communicate that.

You know, it's we're kind of go through and we plan the way we did in our business.

We plan out what we're going to do without ever having the conversations at all.

And I think that's very, we see that very common.

It's incredibly important to think through.

And to have the conversation, we have a client that and now he's an advisor and I love it.

He sat down and they put together a little, you know, if we have a video of them sitting next to a yellow board that they have sticky notes all over what they want to do.

And over the next couple of years, and they each have a glass of wine and they do it like once a quarter.

They've made a little fun activity out of it in glass.

That's cool.

But they talk through, you know, here's what he wants to do.

Here's what he wants to do.

How can she help him?

How can he help her?

How do they both, you know, what do they want to do together?

How can they help each other accomplish, you know, what they both want to do?

He had been the executive.

Do you really want to open our gallery?

He helped.

She opened an art gallery.

She ran it.

He helped from the sidelines, her run it.

But it's that, it's that understanding and that communication is so incredibly important.

Well, I hope if we're all happy, right?

At the end of this session, we'll agree to circle back and do a whole session on this partner framework.

It really seems quite insightful.

And but I want to move on because I have another question.

Again, tactical mark.

You have a section in the book about networking and that really surprised me.

And then it intrigued me because it encourages networking.

And my first thought was like, I'm done with that.

I don't have to do it anymore.

I don't want to do it anymore.

And then as I start thinking about it, I'm like, you know, what a cool way to meet new

friends, to have new stimulating ideas.

I mean, is that where that comes from?

Yeah, I think of it slightly different than the traditional networking.

I think of it as building relationships.

But that would be one thing I would say to start.

It's incredibly, incredibly important.

The almost anything you want to do in that next season comes from networking.

You know, if you want to be on a corporate board, vast majority of corporate board

positions come from networking.

Vast major if you want to teach at a university, vast majority come from networking.

They don't, you know, you set some come from searches and so on, but they'd

vast come from networking.

And it is building relationships.

I mean, one of the things that is so important is having community and you, you, you, you can

lose your community when you leave your, you know, when you leave your job and having

that, you know, networking and building relationships, like you said, is so incredibly important.

So to me, it's one of the most important things you can, you need to do when you leave

is this to be networking.

But it's often hard.

It's surprisingly hard for people because we network when we're young

and we kind of quit networking and where you are.

Yeah.

Exactly.

And then you don't have to network in your job.

Yeah.

And you don't.

And all of a sudden you leave and I'll get people that will come to me and say, OK,

I'm, I don't even know how to network.

You know, what, what, how do I even start that?

You know, and.

But, but I'll also have people that come to me and say, yeah, I decided I was going

to start networking and I met so and so who probably could help me more than anybody

in the world with what I want to do.

But the great thing is we've become great friends.

And if they help me, that's a bonus, but I don't need them to help me.

I just want their friendship.

I built a relationship and I think that's really the key.

Cool.

All right.

A couple more questions that we wrap up.

stubbornly young, as I mentioned, has a really strong focus on staying relevant

to the younger people in our lives.

For me, that means staying up on the chain.

You were particularly technology.

Mark, you talked about being on a board specifically because you wanted to be

involved in AI.

But what's your experience, both of you, been about the impact of staying relevant

to your clients, others, ability to actually have a happy next season.

Is it just me or is it like, is this from a pattern?

Everybody should pursue.

We would support your point of view, Dave.

It's incredibly important.

And I think it's one of the greatest fears when executives transition out of their

core job is will I still be relevant?

And so part of what we try and help them find our ways to take and repurpose,

we call them their superpowers, but to really so that they can continue to find

and feel relevant.

Because I think in the, and we see that I would say it's in the top two or three fears.

We see when they leave their big job because, you know, they are, they are a magnet in

the world is full of nails when they're in those big jobs, right?

And then they lose that magnetic power when they step out.

And it's who am I now?

And so they have to figure out how to make themselves relevant and how to how to pursue

that. We think it's incredibly important.

Mark, what would you add?

No, I'd agree 100%.

And I think I do think staying relevant and engaging with the younger generation and

in general with what's going on in the world is so incredible.

I mean, it's so, it's so needed, not incredible, but, and it's so important.

Yeah.

You know, just to, to know, to, to dig in and understand and think about and so on

of what's going on.

Yeah.

And, and the prior episode of stubborn landing, I had an expert on AI and that was so fun for me.

And I took some of his tidbit, tidbits of advice about how to actually engage with it.

It's been super fun.

All right.

Last question.

And what ends for each of you separately with all your experience helping clients now

through the years plan for successful next seasons, some retirement, some weren't.

As you mentioned, there are a few different buckets.

Like, what's the one thing that you think will be most important for you as you continue

to look at next seasons?

I think the most important thing is, um, is a little bit of what you've, you've landed

upon about relevance, but I, um, I think bringing a spirit of gratitude to whatever we do, um,

has a lot of underpinning the of things I care the most about.

I think bringing a spirit of gratitude means you notice the world around you and people's

contributions and role in that.

It means that you have empathy, um, you know, for other people's circumstances in order

to have gratitude for the circumstances that you're, you know, that you're in.

Um, and I think it also ensures that you're purposeful.

And intentional in how you live your life and in the choices that you make and that

there are unintended consequences, sometimes to our choices, even though it's not what we intended.

So I think for me, the most important thing is, is just having a spirit of gratitude.

And I think the things that underpin that are the things probably I value the most.

Thank you.

Yeah.

Yeah, Mark.

No, I really like that.

I would say two things for me.

One is just as I think about next season, to me, it's I tend to go, go, go.

And so the problem that I have is to stop and pause and think about what to do.

You know, so to me, that's one of the things we tell our clients is stop.

Pause really contemplate, take the time to think about what to do.

And so to me, that's kind of a lesson even to myself that I have to, you know, do that.

Number two is the thing that has really hit me is the impact that we can have, even the words

that we say can have, and particularly on the younger generation.

And so to me, that's the area that I really want to continue to get back to is that younger

generation.

And I find myself constantly thinking about that generation, whether it be anywhere

from my kids to young professionals that come to me, you know, in a wide range, but

yeah, we can have such tremendous impact in taking advantage.

You know, you can either have impact or you can do nothing about the impact.

And I'd love to have impact.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's what you said really brought a note back to me.

I learned years ago and I had my own company.

Did this like it was like an outward boundary treat or something.

And somehow one of the lessons came across that because I was a go, go, go person.

And you're encouraging your clients to pause.

One of the lessons came across to me was that planning, even pausing is an action.

It is an action.

Yeah.

And so for somebody that's just driven to act, that kind of gave me permission to act by doing

nothing but thinking, you know, it's just different.

Yeah.

And I think we've often say not just take time to pause, but make time to pause.

And that to me is it's an action.

Like you said, yeah.

And I think it's so, so, so important.

Yeah.

And Leslie, thanks for your comments about gratitude listeners and also Leslie and Mark, you may know, one of my prior guests name is

Chris Shembra, who's now become sort of this gratitude guru.

He's speaking all over the world.

A great guy.

So if you want to learn more about gratitude, listen to the episode with Chris Shembra.

So any final thoughts before we wrap up?

Just encouragement that each of us have gifts that perhaps we aren't always aware of.

And I think many people feel like the end of that major career is in fact an ending, but it really is a beginning of something, you know, quite wonderful and not

dissimilar from winter to spring.

You know, we made plant bulbs that never come up, but then amazing things come up where we didn't even know seeds were planted before.

And so, you know, enjoy, enjoy the possibilities of what happens in that spring season and just live fully into it.

Thank you.

Yeah.

And I echo what Leslie said 100%.

I would say I was going to say almost the exact same thing.

Often we think that retirement or when we leave a corporate job, that's the end.

And I actually think that's the beginning.

You know, if somebody else were saying that, I would say, wow, that sounds really trite, but you two have been helping people discover that with great success.

And so hearing it from you two means a lot.

So thank you for joining me.

Let's wrap up.

This is episode 19 of the stubbornly young podcast for people in their 50s, 60s beyond who want to remain engaged in the world and relevant to the younger people in their lives.

Leslie Mark, glad you could be part of stubbornly young.

Thank you.

Great to be here.

Thank you for having us, Dave.

You're welcome and listeners.

Yes.

Their book is called Revealing Your Next Season.

So I hope you'll check that out with more detail.

I'm Dave Tabor.

If you've got friends and family who are stubbornly young, please recommend that they give this a listen.

And if you've got ideas for episodes of content, let me know at Dave at stubbornly young.com.

Glad you've joined me on this journey.