[00:00:00] Devlin: Hi everybody. Thank you for joining us. We are here today with Joanna Cappuccilli. Hello. Hello. Hi everyone. So as you probably know, Joanna transitioned from Teaching to Tech. So she is a curriculum developer at Amazon Web Services now. I first met Joanna in the bootcamp and saw Joanna took feedback really well and kinda went above and beyond.
[00:00:19] Was that like every single workshop helping the community. And yeah, had some good options, navigated the job search really well. So today, Joanna's gonna share a lot of actionable tips that you all can use if you're trying to land either your first ID role or an ID role in the tech space. So we have a lot to get into.
[00:00:35] I have some questions prepared so that we can learn a bit more about Joanna's journey and, and we're also gonna answer all of your questions as well. So feel free to use that q and a tab if, and upload on the questions you want to see answered. But we'll also try to keep an eye on the. . So Joanna, I guess the first question we have for you is, when and why did you decide to even become an instructional designer in the first place?
[00:00:57] Joanna: Yes, good question. Hi everyone. Thank you for joining. [00:01:00] I'm really happy to be there. Be here. So yeah, to answer that question, I was a teacher for about eight years. I was teaching in the US and then a lot of that time I was teaching in Asia and South Korea and Taiwan. And I was also in various other aspects of education as well with higher education and international student programs, and did some freelancing.
[00:01:19] Type work. And I think throughout all those experiences within education, the common theme I kept seeing was that I really liked creating and designing learning experiences. I loved creating the materials not as much presenting, it was more of the creation part of things that I loved and incorporating technology into it.
[00:01:36] And so I think when I found out about instructional design, it was this perfect intersection of everything I loved with creativity, education, and technology. And then on top of that, it paid well at least better than what I was getting. So that was just really attractive and to me it felt like a dream job.
[00:01:51] So that's how I decided to get into that. And I had the idea about two years ago, but I actually started pursuing it a year ago.
[00:01:59] Devlin: Nice. Okay.[00:02:00] I mean, I can definitely relate when you talk about those pieces. Being able to be creative work with tech, it's still education related, so you're helping people learn and maybe you live better lives, so,
[00:02:09] I imagine a lot of us here can relate too. I think that intersect is what draws a lot of us to instructional design and like you said, when you find out about it, it's like, "wait, it combines all of these skills. I can do all of this and like make a better living than like the other things I've been considering or doing."
[00:02:23] Yeah, so definitely exciting when you find out about ID for the first time and realize all of that.
[00:02:28] Joanna: Yeah, it felt like a hidden gem.
[00:02:30] Devlin: Yeah. Hidden gem. Yeah. You don't really hear about instructional design very much. Like, you don't really see people like, "oh, when I grow up I wanna be an ID." It's not really in like popular media, it seems like, and maybe that's like slowly changing because it is becoming a bit more popular.
[00:02:43] More people are having that conversation where it's like "what you do what? What's instructional design?" Yeah. True. As more people become IDs like naturally it will spread further. We'll see if, if it ever becomes like a household job, I dunno about that one.
[00:02:59] So two years [00:03:00] ago you found out about ID. A year ago, you're like, "okay, it's time, it's time to pursue this, this career." So let us know what that looked like. How did you, how did you start working on that transition or how did you approach it?
[00:03:12] Yeah, so
[00:03:13] Joanna: I was in Taiwan actually teaching at the time when I, when I began the transition. And I like to kind of think of my transition in like three phases. So in the first phase, I felt like, I actually felt like instructional design and curriculum development type roles were really similar to teaching and education.
[00:03:30] And I thought a lot of jobs would actually want a teacher a lot, like majority of the time. So I didn't even do any work at all. I just applied with my same resume and yeah, applied to probably like 20 places in the beginning and got absolutely zero results. So that was kind of a wake up call and I realized there was a lot more to learn about what this transition would look like, and so, I started moving into doing more, more research in the field and found a lot of like prominent ID professionals like yourself and other people, [00:04:00] and really started absorbing like the free content that was out there and looking at some of like those action items that I could do to make that transition.
[00:04:08] Beacuse I realized this was gonna be a bigger thing than I thought. And so the two biggest takeaways I got from free resources and like content and stuff like that, that I was absorbing was to create a website and to have eLearning projects. So at that time I did actually create a very rough version of a website.
[00:04:25] I got a Squarespace subscription and started just kind of like pulling any eLearning projects I had. I felt like, "okay, I'm a teacher and I've used technology, so that's eLearning." So I would just was putting p PowerPoints on there and different videos and felt like that was sufficient to prove that I was an instructional designer, I guess?
[00:04:45] And so with that version of the website, I started applying again, to like 15, 20 places. Still had no response and felt like, "okay, something is missing, and what do I need to do differently?" Which I think I moved into the [00:05:00] third part of that transition where I realized I needed to work more with the tools that were being marketed in those job descriptions, like learning Articulate Storyline, learning the Adobe Creative Suite, at least getting familiar with Adobe Captivate and things like that.
[00:05:15] And then working on making my portfolio much more. Like clean and minimal and not focusing so much on having like 10 projects up there, but having like one or two really solid projects. And so I decided to join the bootcamp at that time and get more like guided feedback on how to do that. And then yeah, that was kind of like the journey of my transition.
[00:05:37] Devlin: Okay. So to recap the phase one, you were like: you see a lot of overlap in the skills. When you're looking at the job descriptions, you're like, "I can do that. Like I've been doing that." So yeah, you're like, "I'm gonna toss in the resume." You're qualified and you're like, "someone else, surely they'll see the same thing."
[00:05:52] But yeah, didn't really happen that way. Yeah. And then you're like, not at all. Okay, so that was phase of one and you're like, okay, we need to do something a little bit [00:06:00] differently and, and I think a lot of people may start like that, especially coming from teaching, because you can see the overlap in skills.
[00:06:05] But yeah, I mean, especially because of how many teachers are transitioning in, it does take a bit of extra work to show off those industry skills. So you realized that. You started looking up free content on like Google, YouTube, LinkedIn, ID community spaces, and you realized, "okay, it's time to create a portfolio and show off what I can do. That should help me get some interviews at least."
[00:06:24] Joanna: Mm-hmm. . Yes.
[00:06:25] Devlin: So you're like, "I know PowerPoint," you have some PowerPoint deliverables, you can make some videos. You put up a quick website, you're like, "this should be enough to land me some interviews." And maybe it would've been if you applied to like a hundred places or more, but yeah...
[00:06:36] Joanna: True.
[00:06:37] Devlin: But you did another 20 and you're like, "okay, something still isn't working here. What is going on?"
[00:06:42] Joanna: Yeah. Yeah. I was very frustrated at that point, for sure.
[00:06:46] Devlin: Okay, so then phase three, you're like," time to learn Articulate Storyline." Get even more serious about this. Putting even more time.
[00:06:53] Yeah. You joined the bootcamp. Not that that's necessary. I'm sure you would've made the transition successfully regardless, because [00:07:00] you were really motivated and driven. And you were like working on this every day. Yeah.
[00:07:05] Maybe we should talk about that too. I know you, you decided to pursue it like full-time and that must might have been a tough decision, but Yeah.
[00:07:13] Joanna: Yeah.
[00:07:13] Devlin: But, but just to recap, but phase three, you focused on that. You added these Articulate Storyline deliverables through your portfolio. Got it. Really polished. Got a lot of feedback and then I guess you started getting interviews with that portfolio?
[00:07:26] Joanna: Yes. Yeah. I at least started getting interviews, so that kind of gave me the encouragement to keep going. And keep pushing forward to actually land a job. So...
[00:07:35] Devlin: Yeah. And we'll get into some of this because I know you did a ton of interview prep and Yeah. . Yeah. Like we're gonna get into interview prep. We're actually gonna do a whole session with Joanna in like a couple of months or maybe next month, like about interview prep, because Joanna did really, really well with this.
[00:07:50] Joanna's helping build the interview prep section in the bootcamp right now. So, Joanna, we definitely need to get into some interview prep because you're good on that front. [00:08:00]
[00:08:00] Joanna: Thank you. I'm happy to do that.
[00:08:02] Devlin: Okay, so, so that was phase three. I guess we should talk about that too.
[00:08:07] Like you weren't teaching full-time while working on this transition. Like when did that happen? Like was that in phase one you were like, "I'm not teaching anymore." Or was that phase three when you were like," I'm gonna devote more time to this."
[00:08:18] Joanna: So that was phase three. Yeah, phase one and two, I was still teaching, still living in Taiwan.
[00:08:22] I wasn't able to get back to the US at that time. Long story with COVID. But by the time I was able to get back to the US I felt "okay, I don't have a job right now in the US and this might be the time that I need to just focus on this transition and really make it happen."
[00:08:36] Because I knew it was what I wanted and , I know not everyone is necessarily in that situation where they can just take off that time. But if you can, I highly encourage it because that was when I really saw the most growth. I was working probably 10 to 12 hours a day on learning the tools, learning the tech skills and upskilling on visual design and just trying to really make it happen.[00:09:00]
[00:09:00] Devlin: Nice. Okay. I know some people do that, and yeah, not everyone's in the position to do that, of course. But if you have like six months of runway and you're like really serious about making the transition, it seems like a lot of times it may be worthwhile if you can swing it to take that time off, focus full-time on building the portfolio, navigating the interviews, and landing that like higher level job offer as opposed to like something that's more entry level or maybe pays nowhere near as much or something like that because when you do put in all of the effort, like you did, like you are qualified for some really competitive ID roles.
[00:09:32] Joanna: Mm-hmm.
[00:09:33] Devlin: But I see the teachers who are working full-time, it's obviously very difficult to, to navigate those interviews, let alone like put in 50 to hundreds of hours of prep to even get to that point.
[00:09:44] Yeah. While you're working full-time, you have kids, not you, but some people do. I like, "I don't know how some people do it, all, but they do."
[00:09:52] Joanna: Yeah. Yeah. I know it is hard if you're not in that position, but I guess if I could give a word of advice is if you can strategize the best you can and you're [00:10:00] focusing on, like learning those tools early on, it might help with that transition as well.
[00:10:04] If you are working full-time, and I definitely give major shout outs to the people that are, because it's definitely hard work, so. Yeah.
[00:10:12] Devlin: Like, yeah, they're working a job that's really demanding, and they're like, "well, I can swing it for like three to six months." But it's kind of scary to do that because yeah, it's like no guaranteed job at the end of the process.
[00:10:24] But, for people who are really committed and can to devote like 20 to 40 hours a week on it... Yeah. There's a lot of opportunity out there in the ID space right now. A lot of jobs to be had like, yeah, it almost is like if you, if you do the steps and you create the strong portfolio, you update your resume and you prepare for those interviews, like it's gonna be kind of hard not to land a role if you've done all of this hard work.
[00:10:47] Yeah. Oh yeah. Terrifying. Yeah. When you're in it, it can be really, really scary. For sure.
[00:10:51] Joanna: Just gonna say it is, there's a lot of hard days, , if you do quit and it's definitely up and down. But I think that's where like having the community aspect was super [00:11:00] helpful just to be able to engage with people in the community a lot and keep that motivation going.
[00:11:05] Devlin: Good point. Okay, so you started landing interviews, you did the interview prep, and I think you got a handful of offers as well, right?
[00:11:14] Joanna: Yeah. I got two offers, actually in the end. Two offers. Yeah. And yeah, and that was interesting as well, because in the beginning I was getting the interviews, but then I wasn't moving through all those rounds because I found two that the interview structure was really different than what I'd experienced.
[00:11:28] So that was when I kind of regrouped again and then did all that interview prep and then I was actually moving through all the rounds at least. So yeah, it was a, a slow progression. More hard work and keep working at it.
[00:11:41] Devlin: So the interview prep wasn't, what you were familiar with. Did you notice a pattern going through these interviews that maybe you could, you could help give some insight to the people here who haven't went through any ID interviews yet?
[00:11:51] Joanna: Yeah, I eventually did start noticing a pattern. I noticed that a lot of the times it started off with a phone screen and there was a lot of like technical kind of questions [00:12:00] related to ID and just kind of like how you develop learning experiences and things like that. And then it would move into maybe an in-person or like, a video type interview.
[00:12:10] And then after that, it would be a panel of maybe like three or four people interviewing you and maybe then they'd want you to meet the stakeholders that you were, you would be working with. So there was probably, like, for most places I interviewed at was like four rounds, I would say on average.
[00:12:24] Devlin: Wow.
[00:12:24] Joanna: Which was really different than what I had I had done with teaching. So I think the interview process itself took almost two months just to like get through all the rounds with the different companies.
[00:12:36] Devlin: Yeah. And you've probably experienced like the work samples, like I know a decent amount of companies.
[00:12:41] They require you to create some kind of deliverable as part of the interview process. And I'm sure that take took some time as well.
[00:12:48] Joanna: Yeah, absolutely. The work sample was a new aspect as well. Definitely didn't have to do that before teaching, so that was new to kind of have to turn around this fast deliverable, , within like a week time or [00:13:00] whatever they gave.
[00:13:01] Devlin: Yeah. Yeah. So definitely can be tough. Going through the interview process does take a lot of time. But lean on the community. I mean, we're all here to help each other. So.
[00:13:11] Joanna: Yeah, absolutely. There's a lot of great resources out there for sure.
[00:13:15] Devlin: Yeah. And then I know some people, like they get to the end of these interview processes after investing like 10 or 20 hours and interviewing at a single company and then it ends in a rejection.
[00:13:26] Yeah. And I can imagine, yeah. How discouraging that can feel. It's like "what? Like it we all like everything seemed to go well, like I feel like I got the job and now it ended in a rejection" and some people that will happen two or three or four times before getting like the really good offer that that was the right fit for them.
[00:13:42] Joanna: So yeah, it's true. I experienced that as well. You get through all of it and it's like, "oh wow. Still a rejection." So yeah, it's definitely, it can be disheartening at times for sure, but I think, like you said, lean on the support of the community. There really is so many people out there that are willing to support and help, [00:14:00] so,
[00:14:01] Devlin: But yeah, it's definitely acknowledging it like it is an emotional process, like just this process overall.
[00:14:06] Of course. Like, , probably in the beginning it's like a lot of hope and like, "look, this, yeah, this is like a dream opportunity. Like let's make this happen." And then you put in the resume, you're not getting any calls. So it's like, "okay, feeling kind of defeated and then it's like, "wait, no, I can still do this. I'm sure there's more I can be doing."
[00:14:21] Like it's just like kind of like a rollercoaster. It seems like for a lot of people where it's like success, , you can see the vision, but it's kind of trickier to get there than you may initially imagine. Yeah. But you, but you did get there. Still got there.
[00:14:34] Joanna: Yeah. Lot of self reflection throughout the process and lot of, I think growing throughout that process too. Because like you said, it is an emotional kind of up and down journey, but I think if you can stick it out, you can come out stronger on the other end of it. So,
[00:14:48] Devlin: So you landed the role. Yes. How did that feel? Let's talk a little bit about that. So you, you did this year long journey from putting in your first ID job application to now you've landed that role at AWS. What is it like [00:15:00] now that you're on the job?
[00:15:02] Joanna: Yeah, it feels amazing. I mean, getting that job offer was just one of like the best days ever.
[00:15:08] It was right before Christmas too, so it was kind of like my own Oh yeah. I remember little Christmas present . So that was really awesome. And I think now that I'm actually in this role, like sometimes it still feels really surreal, but it's just so exciting and I'm really grateful that I like have a company that supports me in what I'm doing and I have team members that are also really excited about learning and development.
[00:15:28] And , that's not to say there's a lot of challenges. I think even, even while you're on the job, there's, for me, I found there's still a learning curve. Having never been in corporate, never been in a tech company. There's definitely a lot that I'm still learning and kind of been immersed in every day that I have to do a lot to kind of stay afloat still.
[00:15:45] But I think it's been an exciting challenge, a really different challenge, and I think it's just... I'm so thankful I wouldn't have it any other way.
[00:15:53] Devlin: Nice. Okay. Yeah. So you didn't just walk on and you're like, "oh, this is the same as what I was doing." Like there is a [00:16:00] learning curve and like an adjustment period it seems like, but, but you, you're rising to the occasion.
[00:16:06] You're learning something new every day and it sounds like you're having a good time in the process.
[00:16:10] Joanna: Yeah, and I think actually something I did feel very prepared for the actual eLearning development part of things. So like doing all that prep before with learning Storyline and , learning how to make a project and stuff like that, like that and that part of the transition, it's been super smooth.
[00:16:25] Nice. But yeah, I think it's just like learning all those other things that come with like being in a corporate culture and being in a tech company as well with trying to teach content that's technical concepts is really different. So
[00:16:37] Devlin: True. Yeah. That really technical subject matter. Yeah.
[00:16:42] Joanna: Yeah, exactly, but it's been awesome.
[00:16:45] Devlin: All right. So those are all the questions I had prepared for Joanna. That's the journey in a quick 20 minute nutshell. So we're here for the next 40 minutes to answer all of your questions.
[00:16:54] So we have a question from Nikki. A good question that we didn't dive into too much. How did you end up updating your [00:17:00] resume to show that your teaching skills are transferable?
[00:17:03] Joanna: Yeah, that's a really good question. And that's actually something I meant to talk about too. So thanks for calling that out. But yeah, that was something that I think was a big part of the journey as well. I first started applying with that teacher resume and then I slowly started trying to update it and make it more, I guess, ID friendly.
[00:17:20] But then when I really started seeing the results was when I made it much more minimal and really simple and to the point and just really focused on the skills that an ID needs. What I started doing was doing a lot of job description matching, where I would look at the responsibilities of that job and then really try to make sure that my resume matched what those responsibilities were.
[00:17:41] So by the time I was really applying in, I guess phase three was when I started, I think I have like 15 versions of my resume now. Just where I was adjusting. Wow. The resume for every posting. And just making sure that those keywords were matched and on point there.
[00:17:58] And then listing my portfolio at the [00:18:00] top of the resume too, really drawing attention to the fact that I had a portfolio. I think that made a huge difference in the response that I got with my resume.
[00:18:09] This was something I was gonna mention as well, just like I didn't have a lot of, like numbers on my resume. I wasn't really talking about how far my impact was with my learning experiences or like the number of people I was reaching or the number of courses I had created. So I went back and really tried to think about the number of courses I created, and you can really, as a teacher, you can kind of consider like a lesson plan as a course in a way.
[00:18:32] Because a lot of times that's taking you through a whole learning experience and you can call those different things like instructor led or virtual led, or is it eLearning? And try to really like, put those in categories and distinguish what those are, because I think that made my resume more attractive as well.
[00:18:48] Devlin: Yeah. Yeah. Number of lessons or courses. Design. Yeah. Number, number of students served. Any evaluation efforts you've done, you may be able to quantify that. Like if you quantified the impact of your learning [00:19:00] experience, there may be opportunities to do that as well.
[00:19:03] Joanna: And I think just starting to reframe your experience as a teacher like in a business mindset as well, because I think at the end of the day, as teachers, we, teachers I think can be underestimated, but there really are a lot of project management skills that go into being a teacher and so you can really like draw from those experiences and talk about that in your resume and talk about like how you worked with stakeholders, even if that's like other co-teachers or other admin or parents.
[00:19:29] Parents are technically stakeholders too. So I think there's ways that you can use your experience to your advantage.
[00:19:35] Devlin: Definitely. Yeah. When teachers say that they're transitioning into ID, like, I don't know, I know some people who aren't teachers like, get discouraged because they're like, everyone's like helping teachers transition to ID. Like, it is definitely like one of the biggest populations who are transitioning into ID.
[00:19:51] Yeah. There are just so many transferable skills and it does take work. Not just reframe it to an audience, but like reframe it for your own mind. Yeah. Of like how the things you have been [00:20:00] doing are actually very similar or the same to these things you'll be doing in this corporate or ID space.
[00:20:05] So once you can reframe it for yourself, then it can become a, a bit easier to reframe it on your resume or in your interview.
[00:20:10] Joanna: Yeah, absolutely. That's really good advice. I think just like that internal reflection too, and I guess like empowering yourself to know that you do have those skills and I think you own that when you're in the interviews and managers see that. So yeah, I think it's really good.
[00:20:24] Devlin: Yeah. I love working with teachers too, because you'll just be talking to someone who's transitioning from teaching and they'll like mention like, "oh, this is similar to this thing, like, I've actually been doing this."
[00:20:31] It's like, "yes, save that. Write it down. That is like gold for like your interview, like you have been doing this." So I think I saw a question like, "do teachers have to take entry level jobs or does our teaching experience count as ID experience?"
[00:20:43] And it's like you have to like kind of make it count. Hiring managers aren't gonna look and say, "oh, they're a teacher. Yeah, it's five years of ID experience." But if you can position the things that you've been doing as instructional design tasks, which you probably have been doing a lot of ID tasks then you definitely do not have to settle for an entry level role when you're [00:21:00] transitioning into instructional design.
[00:21:02] Joanna: Yeah, I definitely agree with that. It's very true.
[00:21:05] Devlin: Yeah. I mean, you, you lived it. Yeah. Yeah. Living proof.
[00:21:07] Joanna: Couldn't agree more .
[00:21:09] Devlin: Yeah. Very cool. But good question about the resume.
[00:21:12] We have a question from Andrea. Now that you've landed the job, how does it compare to teaching both good and bad? What are the biggest challenges and how do you overcome these? So we touched on that a little bit, but maybe I'm more of a comparison between this and teaching may be good.
[00:21:24] Joanna: Yeah. Well, I think first of all, I would say in my current role, I have a lot more autonomy and independence over what I'm doing, which has been really positive. If you are someone that likes to organize and like, kind of like manage your own projects, that's been awesome to be able to like have that full control and not really have to worry too much, like what outside people are saying.
[00:21:46] I think that's been great. I think also just, I mean pay, pay is a lot better. Just being honest, like I think that is a huge perk for part of the transition and I'm still putting in a ton of work, but I think it's still not even [00:22:00] close to the work that I put in as a teacher and getting paid like half the amount.
[00:22:03] So I think Wow. Yeah. Yeah. So I think that's definitely a great advantage. Like I said earlier, I think just like, don't underestimate what that move into a different culture type workplace would be like.
[00:22:16] I think if I could give an actionable tip early on in your journey would be, really like try to immerse yourself into different business terms and even if you are looking to get into a tech company, like different tech terms, because you don't necessarily have to be a like skill that the technical content, but it definitely would help like navigating when you're also trying to onboard into a totally new environment in the corporate setting.
[00:22:40] I think that's been a challenge, but it's definitely one that I've taken head on and just tried to learn as much as I can, absorb as much as I can. But yeah, I think those are the main ones.
[00:22:52] Devlin: Nice. So working less for better pay with more autonomy.
[00:22:57] Yeah. Yeah. That's pretty nice. That's pretty nice. Yeah. . Yeah, [00:23:00] that's good. Oh, you mentioned something I don't wanna pass up. So you mentioned yeah, the actionable tip, immersing yourself in like business terms. How do you go about doing that? And like, can you give us some examples of terms?
[00:23:10] Like what do you mean by that?
[00:23:11] Joanna: It's not that we're unaware of these as teachers, but like KPIs, key performance indicators, change management or like things like scrum was a big one or agile mentality. I think those were the types of terms that I hadn't experienced quite like, I hadn't experienced often in teaching and that were just coming up a lot in the corporate interviews that I had.
[00:23:31] And I think if, if you can kind of like get ahead of the game and be able to speak that language with them and then use your own experience and reframe it in those terms. Nice. I think that's really helpful if you can do that ahead of time too. And just, just so you're not like totally lost if you do get the job and you're immersed in kind of this whole new setting.
[00:23:51] And I think I did a lot of research. I would like read posts on LinkedIn or I would follow like other professionals in the field. I listened to podcasts of that [00:24:00] company, so for a while I was listening to like an AWS podcast to wow. Learn about some of, like, just some of the things that they were saying and mentioning.
[00:24:08] It made a big difference to just at least have a very base understanding of what was going on.
[00:24:13] Devlin: Very cool. Good, good suggestions. So what should you, what should you focus on during these phone screens? What skills should you highlight that will help you move on to the next phase?
[00:24:23] Joanna: Yeah, I think, I mean, I think it can be hard to like get, I guess, one, like one response to that because it does depend on the company. I think it depends on the interviewer, but I think what I saw as a theme was that those phone interviews were usually related to more technical things.
[00:24:38] Like, "what instructional design theories do you follow? What types of learning experiences have you created? how do you incorporate visual design into your learning experiences?"
[00:24:47] So just really making sure that you have a good understanding of your own process as an instructional designer and really showing those managers that you can bring them through your entire creation process when making a learning experience.
[00:24:59] Subject matter [00:25:00] experts was a big one that came up a lot. They wanted to know how I worked with the SMEs, and then they would also often follow up with, okay, now how do you handle like a difficult SME? So I think just being really prepared for those types of questions in the phone screen was helpful.
[00:25:14] I think the first one I did, I didn't do very well, wasn't prepared with all that. And then once I started preparing in that way, it was a lot easier and I found that I could answer those questions better.
[00:25:26] Devlin: Nice. Okay, good. So from your experience, a lot of them wanted to see if you could like, talk the talk kind of. Do you seem like a possibly competent instructional designer? And if so, we'll move you along. So be comfortable talking about your process, about maybe some top ID tech and theory, and then also how to work with subject matter experts.
[00:25:46] Joanna: Yeah, I think those were the main ones. I also did get interestingly enough, I got some kind of like personal questions as well, like, "what was your favorite learning experience?" Or " what was your most challenging one?"
[00:25:56] So if you can reflect like on your own projects that you've [00:26:00] done and think about in terms of like what you enjoyed or what you had a hard time with, and then really being able to articulate that. I think that's good too.
[00:26:08] Devlin: Nice. Alright. Good suggestions.
[00:26:11] Yeah, let's jump further along in the interview process. Now we have a question from Jenny. Jenny is getting to the third panel interview. Feels like she's struggling to Articulate her experience with stakeholders. The ID process and analysis portion of the ID role. What are some suggestions there?
[00:26:27] So we know what kind of questions people will ask. Do you have any tips around how to actually respond to those questions? Or how to Oh query yourself for possible answers?
[00:26:39] Joanna: Yeah. Yeah, that's like where I got into a lot of my interview prep, and as I've mentioned before, I spent probably 50 hours prepping, and a lot of that prep was just rehearsing and practicing and trying to like gauge potential questions.
[00:26:53] So even if it wasn't a question that came up at all, I would write it down and I would practice a response to like, probably had a [00:27:00] list of like a hundred questions or something.
[00:27:02] I mean, It was a lot. Right. And I would just kind of like, wow. Yeah. I had a lot of que questions where I was just like practicing a anticipated response or an anticipated question. And a lot of that I think comes into analyzing the company and analyzing the. Like the job description as well, or maybe analyzing like the people that, that are working for that company by finding them on LinkedIn and seeing what they're talking about and like what's important to the company.
[00:27:28] And if you can find what's important to the company, I think you can kind of get a good sense of the questions they might ask and then you can prepare yourself that way. But yeah, I think just following the STAR format too, that was a one that I used a lot just to kind of like guide myself during that process.
[00:27:45] Like focusing on like how I could tell the story of my experience and really focusing on actions and impact and data and things that proved that what I did was actually helpful to the learners. Nice. So I [00:28:00] hope that answers the question , but Yeah.
[00:28:02] Devlin: Yeah. So, so it's not just brainstorming yourself or asking yourself of how can I respond to this, but it seems like there's a lot of research that goes into that process too, and it's, "how can I answer this in a way that's meaningful to the people I'll be speaking to?"
[00:28:17] So I can see how that would be really valuable. And yeah, definitely give you kind of a leg up in the process when this is what the company cares about, this is what these people likely care about. I can use that to help me frame my responses. Good suggestion.
[00:28:29] Joanna: Yeah. Yeah, I think just really getting in like the mind of the company, if you can take the time to do that.
[00:28:34] Devlin: Nice. We have more interview questions naturally because people can tell, you've put a lot of work into this, but I don't know if maybe something immediately comes to mind for this one, "the most challenging interview question you've encountered?"
[00:28:47] Joanna: I mean, this actually isn't really like a technical question, but it did kind of throw me off because I wasn't really expecting it. But I actually had somebody ask me, "what are three things that I'm not?" So it was kind of, [00:29:00] I wouldn't say it was challenging in terms of like, instructional design questions, but I think kind of just being prepared for some of those, like other types of behavioral questions that might come your way.
[00:29:10] And I think that's where like knowing yourself and knowing who you are is really important because yeah, just being able to articulate that and being put on the spot like that sometimes can be sort of jarring throughout the inter Yeah.
[00:29:21] Interview process. So yeah, I think that was challenging for, I guess for a different reason, but yeah.
[00:29:28] Devlin: That sounds like it would be tough. That's like a nightmare. Like I hate being put on the spot. Like I'm not good at just like coming up with something off the top of my head. So, yeah. Yeah.
[00:29:37] Interviews are anxiety inducing for sure. Definitely. Yeah, but, but it sounds like doing the prep you did is a good way to help mitigate that.
[00:29:45] Yeah, that was, I'm someone that is like,
[00:29:48] Joanna: very nervous in interviews and would be very nervous. So I think like preparing myself like that made me feel much more confident going into them.
[00:29:56] Devlin: And then most people here you probably already know about like the mock interview sessions we've [00:30:00] done and the attitude in there will definitely help people approach interviews more comfortably. I would say just framing it more as a conversation, like we were talking about before this.
[00:30:09] Yeah. But yeah, so if you want something to hold you over with on the interview front, we do have some mock interviews on the YouTube channel, but we'll get into interview prep specifically with Joanna.
[00:30:20] How did you set up salary expectations at the beginning? How to approach that? What to expect?
[00:30:26] Joanna: Yeah, that's a really good question. Because I think in the beginning I was just, , like willing to take anything, especially in phase one, phase two of my transition. I was like, yeah, anything to me would've been fine and, and probably would've been more than what I was making as a teacher.
[00:30:41] So I think I went in with pretty low expectations, but I think it wasn't until I started engaging with more people in the community and talking to Devlin a lot too, and just trying to get an understanding of like what I could expect with my skills and with the portfolio that I had that helped me.
[00:30:58] Wait a little bit longer [00:31:00] to raise the bar to get the salary that that I wanted. So I think in the beginning I definitely would've just like taken anything, but I think waiting it out and making sure that I like had those quality pieces in place and was just, waiting for the right opportunity is I'm really glad I did because I'm really happy with like what I landed on with Amazon.
[00:31:19] Devlin: Nice. Yeah, and I think, I think that's where a lot of people are at too. Like some people, it's like, I just wanna make this transition land a role as soon as possible to get out of wherever I am. Maybe some kind of toxic workplace or toxic environment. They're like, "I'll take what I can get.
[00:31:32] Hopefully it's making as much or more than I'm making now, but not super important." But then, yeah, but then there are also people who are like maybe already making like 80 to 90 K and, and some of those people come and they're like, I really can't take a pay cut here. Like, I can't , but I really want to get out.
[00:31:47] And it's like, no, if you, if you put in the work and you create a strong portfolio and you work on reframing your experience for the interview and the resume like if you take the steps, like there are a lot of opportunities out there. Again, this is in the us the [00:32:00] numbers I'm talking yeah. Do re , gotta do some research on.
[00:32:03] countries you may be in obviously varies, but mm-hmm. a lot of, lot of opportunity in like the 80 to 100 K range right now. And, and even opportunities above that and, and of course below that, but yeah, a lot of opportunities and, and some people, yeah, when they are first coming in, putting in their resume to everything, like they might not know that or know what to expect.
[00:32:22] So like conversations we've had about, about that. Conversations I have on like a weekly basis. It's like you can, you can aim higher. Like there's a lot of good opportunities out there, . Yeah. Especially when you're like investing thousands of dollars into like Yeah. Professional development and like hundreds or thousands of hours into the prep.
[00:32:39] At that point, you're probably like, "maybe I shouldn't be settling for just anything. I'm kind of putting in a lot here." Yeah,
[00:32:45] Joanna: Yeah, after not working for six months, it was like, "maybe I should just wait it a little bit longer and get what I, what I want."
[00:32:52] Devlin: We have a question from Lana. So Lana sees many job ads asking for sound knowledge of adult learning principles. Which of these did [00:33:00] you find useful to base your design on?
[00:33:02] That's a tricky one. Yeah. Did you mention any, like adult learning principles or theories or, or kind of keywords like that?
[00:33:10] Yeah. I think the main one I referenced a lot was ADDIE. I mean, that was just kind of like the, the one that I kept coming back to. And I, I found that at least the jobs I interviewed for, they didn't necessarily.
[00:33:22] Like, need me to mention a specific learning model. It was just as, as long as I mentioned something, , and as long as I can move them through the process. So a lot of times what I did with ADDIE is I would, I would mention it upfront and then I would, , actually move them through my process with ADDIE and I would use a project as an example and not really talk about like, cuz I think.
[00:33:41] The theory is great, but I think if you can show that you're applying the theory to an actual project that you've done, I think that that makes more impact in the end.
[00:33:49] Definitely. Yeah. Especially in the corporate space when that's what the main concern is. It's like, "can you actually do the job? Can you do these things?"
[00:33:56] I can see how if you're walking them through your process with an actual project [00:34:00] that's going to, to win you some points in the interview process for sure.
[00:34:04] Joanna: Definitely more proof, and it kind of draws them back to your portfolio as well, and just reminding them like, "yeah, I have done this and I can do it."
[00:34:11] Devlin: That's smart, smart way to integrate your portfolio into the interview process. Yeah. Good example there. Another question how did you get started on eLearning projects and what was that process like?
[00:34:22] Joanna: Yeah, that's a good question. And I think that's also like one of my biggest pieces of advice and takeaways is to like when it comes to the eLearning projects is really focus on creating with Articulate Storyline. And I think don't focus so much on the topic, and this is something I've said a lot to on LinkedIn, but I think at the end of the day, it's just proving that you.
[00:34:40] Take a learner through a whole learning experience beginning to end. And I think I did that with my scenario-based learning project. That is the main one on my website right now. And then the other one was, was literally a project about coffee because I love coffee and I just wanted to do something about coffee.
[00:34:57] So I think yeah, so I think it's not so much about the topic and [00:35:00] I think it's. Really about the quantity. It really is quality over quantity. I had such like a different response in the job market when I had just those two projects versus like those 10 PowerPoints that I had before.
[00:35:13] Use Articulate Storyline. I always tell anyone this, that ask me, not that it's a waste of time to do other things, but I think like if you can make Articulate Storyline a priority and then creating, creating eLearning that is like actually impactful and more high quality will go a long way.
[00:35:29] Devlin: Yeah, I mean, where the corporate market is at right now. Like if you don't have a Storyline project in your portfolio, it's gonna be a little bit harder to succeed on the market. Not impossible for sure. And like a lot of teams will see, okay, you have experience with like, if they'll be Captivate or another eLearning authoring tool, like sure those skills will transfer.
[00:35:48] But if you need like a first portfolio piece and you wanna kind of maximize your chances at getting calls back or interviews, Storyline is a very safe tool to use just because of how in demand it is right now in the corporate [00:36:00] space. So, absolutely safe choice to make there.
[00:36:03] Joanna: Yeah, and, and I think it goes beyond too, just knowing it.
[00:36:06] Because I think in the beginning I had taken a few tutorials and like a few lessons about it and I knew like basic familiarity, so I thought, oh, that, , that would be enough to just say that I kind of know it. But I found that it wasn't, it was just more important for me to show that I like, could actually make a project with that tool.
[00:36:24] Devlin: So, yeah. Yeah. And I guess it's not just like knowing Storyline, it's like being able to put together a project that looks good and functions flawlessly. No, like bugs or anything in Storyline. And then showing that off on a portfolio site. Because if you show off Storyline skills that are kind of like, yeah, stuff works, but like you can break it and it like looks kind of confusing and the user experience is like not very, Sure.
[00:36:45] And maybe hurting you more than it helps you. So definitely get feedback from as many people as you can. Test it on different browsers and devices because that's a good way to kind of get them to leave your portfolio site if they're finding errors or it just looks really [00:37:00] unprofessional, so that's important too.
[00:37:01] Joanna: I was just gonna say visual design skills too. I think that's something that, yeah, I really had to upskill in being a teacher. So yeah, don't underestimate the power of good visual design skills as well.
[00:37:12] Devlin: Yeah, especially in the job search, just because we are such visual kind of creatures as humans, like we, we form first impressions very quickly, and visual design has a lot to do with that.
[00:37:21] Like, if something doesn't look good to us on first glance, then we're kind of trying to like crawl our way out of the hole with our theory and our writing and like the other pieces. Yeah. And some people they're, they've trained themselves to like look beyond that. But again, if you wanna maximize your chances at success and have a good first impression when people land there and then it's just like they're looking for things to verify. Like, "okay, does this person know what they talk about?" I like it because it looks good. That's a better position to be in than someone trying to like find something to redeem your poor visual design skills.
[00:37:52] Joanna: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that's a good way to put it.
[00:37:55] Devlin: Yes. And I didn't wanna brush over this piece just because this might help people. So you mentioned [00:38:00] like quality over quantity, we've probably all heard that before. Very important when it comes to your portfolio site, just for. What we were just talking about, if nothing else.
[00:38:08] Yeah. We'd rather see two really strong projects with no errors than 10, and maybe five of them are like kind of sloppy or not super refined. Yeah. I'm not saying yours were sloppy, but...
[00:38:17] Joanna: no, no. They kind of were in the beginning .
[00:38:19] Devlin: Okay. I didn't see those PowerPoint .
[00:38:21] Joanna: Yeah. That's good. You didn't. Yeah.
[00:38:24] Devlin: But with, with the second project though, with the coffee one, like Yeah, I think that's how the idea started.
[00:38:28] You're like, "yeah, I like coffee." But we did get a nice kind of spin on it just by talking it out. It's like, how is this solving a problem? So the project, and maybe we shouldn't go too deep into it, but yeah, it is. We're just selecting different kind of coffee drinks and learning what they are, and then we're, and then we're like, well, maybe this would be helpful to a coffee shop.
[00:38:44] You could scan this as like a QR code while you're in line and you could learn more about what these different drinks are as you're in line waiting to make some kind of like purchasing decision. So instead of Joanna just presenting it as like, "oh, here's a hobby piece I did about different types of coffee."
[00:38:57] Joanna presented it as "here's like a concept project I did for a [00:39:00] cafe who wants to help their, their customers learn more about the different offerings we have so that they can make more informed purchasing decisions, maybe even drive sales." Yeah. So even though we might start with it as like a, "oh, I'm interested in this thing, I'm passionate about this thing," you can still think, " would this be valuable to a business or a company? And, and how would, how would it provide value? How can we frame it that way?"
[00:39:23] yeah, very true. I think it's just like
[00:39:25] Joanna: Fine tuning that idea to make it show that impact. So that's definitely really important as well.
[00:39:32] Devlin: Okay. Catherine's asking, "it seems like job titles are intertwined. Is there a difference between instructional design and curriculum development and or courseware development?"
[00:39:42] Joanna: Yeah, that's a good question. That's something that I really struggled with to understand in the beginning as well because for a long time I felt like curriculum developer was like what I was doing as a teacher.
[00:39:51] And I think that does exist in teaching spaces as well. But I think what I've seen, at least from my perspective, and it might be different for others, but [00:40:00] like in the corporate space, it seems like curriculum developers are a lot of times kind of just focusing on developing those courses and really just kind of like producing, doing like the production side of that, whether that's like editing the graphics and like putting it in Storyline and the instructional designer tends to be more like looking at how it like impacts a business problem.
[00:40:22] That's how I've seen it. And maybe Devlin, you have some more perspective on that as well.
[00:40:27] Devlin: Yeah, I honestly see so much overlap. Like, curriculum developers like, the role you're in, like I could, I think if it was called instructional designer. Yeah. I don't think there's any like, meaning, I think how AWS might differentiate it is like the project management piece.
[00:40:41] Like I, yeah, I think they, they imagine the curriculum developer as having more of a project management workload. Yeah, but I don't think there is any like formal industry-wide agreed upon like distinction between these types of roles. Yeah. So yeah, I'm sure, I'm sure you can argue differences, but I think in practice, if you [00:41:00] look up 10 job titles with curriculum developer, probably for nine of them, maybe even all 10, you could put instructional designer on there and it would be just as accurate.
[00:41:08] Joanna: And I think the skills that you'll need and like are still the same, , regardless of what you're actually doing. I think you'll still need a portfolio. You'll still need those eLearning projects. So, yeah.
[00:41:18] Devlin: Yeah, I think it has more to do with the company and the team you're working on and like that will have more to do with like what your day-to-day looks like than what your job title is in this space.
[00:41:25] There's so much overlap. It's kind of muddied. Again, it's not clear distinctions. Like eLearning developer typically does mean you're working more in the tools. Instructional designer, typically would traditionally mean doing more of like the writing and working with, with subject matter experts.
[00:41:41] But these days most IDs are wearing eLearning development hats as well. Mm-hmm. , so they're doing the, the ID and also the eLearning development. Yeah, so there are some more niche titles, like Learning Consultant typically has more to do with like working with stakeholders and like imagining the overall solution and identifying the solution and not so much being hands on doing the work.
[00:41:58] But again, I'm sure there are learning [00:42:00] consultants who are working in Storyline on a weekly basis as well. So, Yeah. Yeah. It can be tough. Broad field. It can be tough. . Yeah. Yes. It's overlap between job titles. Mm-hmm.
[00:42:11] A question from Tara. Can you share some of the specific resources that helped you build your portfolio?
[00:42:16] And caveat, I know you did the bootcamp, so, and that's a big investment. So your experience might be a little different. Wanna give a caveat. Yeah. It's not necessary to do paid programs. Like maybe share actionable takeaways from like what you did in the bootcamp that other people could do using free resources.
[00:42:34] Joanna: Yeah. I think the a big thing for me was learning how to. Find graphics and you can do a lot, there's a lot of free sites out there to be able to find like free images that you can and learning how to edit those images. And you can do the free trials for a lot of things to just get practice with editing images, and then like being able to use Storyline or whatever the eLearning tools that you use.
[00:42:56] But I would recommend Storyline. I think just, yeah, [00:43:00] trying to use those free trials as as much as you can. And if you get like a plan ahead of time, then when you do go into those free trials, you might be able to create faster too. So I think just utilizing whatever's out there, but I would say really honing in on, on visual design, especially if you are coming from teaching, you don't have a lot of experience with that.
[00:43:20] Even using Canva to just like look at layouts and look at different types of visual design layouts and train your eye and get familiar with different things. And that will, I think, go a long way when you start actually developing.
[00:43:35] Yeah. And we
[00:43:35] Devlin: have a lot of free content on the channel about how to apply visual design principles and how to design the scenario- based learning experience like Joanna did that YouTube video wasn't there when you were getting started. Yeah, that's kind of the exact process Joanna and other people that you might see on the showcase went through to design those projects. So a lot of free content on the YouTube channel that may help you build your portfolio and land a good ID role.
[00:43:57] Did you update your skills in the tech field you applied [00:44:00] to or just ID skills?
[00:44:02] Joanna: So like for the AWS posting, I just really looked at that job posting and tried to match my resume to that.
[00:44:10] So I didn't even necessarily look at like, Amazon as a whole, or other tech companies as a whole. I was really just really honing in on that particular job description. And so if it did mention like a more technical concept, then I did my best to match my experience to that.
[00:44:25] So yeah. I would just say my biggest piece of advice is to really look at those job descriptions.
[00:44:31] Devlin: Very nice. All right. Well, thank you, Joanna. Thank you.