Taking the Leap into Instructional Design with Sean Anderson

Devlin Peck: [00:00:00] Right now, we’re doing a special series on how to become an instructional designer. We’ve compiled our most valuable content from interviews and question and answer sessions with top experts on how to become an ID to help you launch your own thriving instructional design career. So let’s get started with Episode 1 in the series, ’Taking the Leap into Instructional Design with Sean Anderson’.

Devlin Peck: All right. Hi, everyone. Welcome to the Q and A today. We are here with Sean Anderson. Hey, Sean. 

Sean Anderson: Excited to be here.

Devlin Peck: We're both happy to be here. So Sean will be chatting with us about his transition into instructional design, particularly the emotions and, yeah, just what it feels to be taking that leap, like taking that leap of faith.

You've described it as that a lot, Sean, and I think a lot of people can relate to that, especially as they're considering the transition or just getting started or even going through interviews like I know that uncertainty is there, like throughout so we'll dive into some of that. We're happy to answer all of your questions along the way.

A little bit of background on Sean. We actually met our sophomore year of [00:01:00] college. So we were coworkers. We were resident assistants. We like worked in the dorm together and we got really close. And then we lived together like our senior year. We had a house together with one of our other friends.

We split it, we split different ways. I was always going to be like an English teacher pursuing English, and Sean was pursuing like mental health counseling so we did our master's degrees. Sean did mental health for a couple of years, and then transitioned into teaching English, and while I found my way into instructional design, so we Both found our way to ID one way or another and we will get into that.

So thanks everyone for joining us I have questions prepared as usual. But like I said, feel free to ask them along the way. So maybe we'll dive right into it, Sean my first question for you is when did you decide to take the leap to ID and why? 

Sean Anderson: So like Devlin mentioned, I had in my background both mental health and then teaching English.

I was teaching at a high school here in Florida. So it was during my second year as a teacher, the fall of 2021, when I started feeling like it was time for a change. I was starting to [00:02:00] get burned out with both the demands of teaching and also things that unique to my situation. So I was driving like two hours a day.

To get to the school that's to and from and then I felt like I just didn't have the work life balance and it's something that you know, I hear echoed by a lot of teachers. So I imagine that if there's any current or former teachers here today could probably also really empathize with that.

So I just felt like I didn't have nights or weekends and then yeah 100% I see in the chat. So I was talking with you. We were catching up and I was just expressing yeah I'm starting to feel a little bit burned out with all of this. And you were like, have you heard or thought of instructional design?

And my first question was, what's that, right? Like I'd known that you'd gotten your master's in the field, and you'd started your business, but I hadn't actually really considered it or really known that there were a lot of teachers successfully making that transition. Based on the conversation with you, I started really looking more into it, and you invited me into the Slack community and we'll get into some of the more specific kind of Slack stuff that I felt like had helped me, or at least community channels but I really felt like [00:03:00] this career actually does align with a lot of what I'd, been passionate about, what I'd gotten my schooling and education in, because my master's program was, mental health counseling, but also human systems.

So there was a lot of adult learning theory involved and a lot of education-related concepts. So I was like, okay, it combines my education. It combines a lot of what I've been doing in my professional experience. And it's also what I'm passionate about with almost like an extra dose of like software and creativity and kind of technological prowess. It was like, this is really something that I feel like I might enjoy. So I would say that. That kind of mix around that, that fall 2021 is when I really started considering it.

Devlin Peck: Nice. And yeah, Carrie, 18 years worth of 100% can relate. Jessica, 13 years teaching. So nice. Yeah. Elizabeth is commenting on the software. That is some, yeah, a lot of teachers when they're transitioning, when they first start using Storyline and like creating things like that generally are pretty excited about that.

Being able to use their creativity and passion for [00:04:00] education in that way. It's definitely a different format, but it's cool seeing what people create with the tools. Very cool. So you were like, yeah. Yeah, I got, I remember first talking about it, I'm like, I feel like you would really like this. But I guess that leads into the next part, like what were some of the fears you had before taking that leap and what helped you overcome them? Because I know you were, you know a little hesitant to commit to it. 

Sean Anderson: Yeah, there were a lot of text conversations with a lot of me just spamming like worried messages about all this too. So I appreciate your patience with me during that time but I feel like it's a lot of fears I've seen with other people I've talked about in this transition of, just the big one is failing to make the transition happen, right?

Doing all this, not having a job prospect, right? And then on top of all that, that just felt, I'm like, I feel like it's lucid. Okay and then, honestly, it's not working and being forced to possibly return to a situation that I didn't feel like was working for me.

And I felt was leading to a lot of, emotional distress [00:05:00] and just general unhappiness. And another big thing was feeling like I might not actually be able to learn the programs like I might not get Storyline and I might not be successful with the Adobe Creative Suite or any of the other things that you see instructional designers really using, and then just the dose of imposter syndrome in general.

And I think the last big thing was it almost seemed too good to be true, right? Like this field that is using a lot of the same skills, but paying a lot better and not only that, but seemingly having far better balance with people's work life and giving them the space to have an actual personal life So those were the fears at the time. Okay, good.

Yeah, I see a lot of people relating to that and I think that there's a lot of overlap with kind of some of the things that teachers really fear when they're considering this but ultimately what helped me overcome a lot of these is initially those testimonials like at the time Slack was the main channel. So I was on the career wins page and I know we've, you know, transitioned to another community page that also has that same [00:06:00] career wins page.

I was clicking that on that every day, right? I was during my planning periods. I was looking at those career wins and seeing people share, just got a job, just transitioned out of teaching, just made it happen or sharing their portfolios. And that's where the bootcamp showcase for me really helped out with seeing that special kind of section devoted to teachers who'd made the transition.

And seeing these beautiful, gorgeous Storyline experiences that, that they've developed. People from like Joanna or Alex, like who to me are like boot camp superstars. And essentially ID celebrities at this point. And so seeing them and what they've done and I was like, okay, these are people who've done it and who succeeded.

So why not me? And then the last thing was just your support encouragement as somebody who's, really seen a lot of people make this transition and having the backing of my family and wife really meant a lot where it's okay, I can go for this because everybody who I care about, everybody whose opinion I hold dear, thinks I can do it, so why shouldn't I think I can do it too, right?[00:07:00] 

So I would say that, that's how I try combating those fears.

Devlin Peck: All right, big response. We got into a lot. But those fears, yeah, people are relating to those fears, the imposter syndrome. Jenny feels validated. Jenny thought they were being dramatic. Any other fears that anyone who is transitioning did have when they started or currently grappling with Rowan mentioned as teachers, we discount our ability so much when it comes to transitioning to other fields.

I think that's accurate. Yeah. Transitioning teachers I talk to have so many skills and they're like, I've heard people say I can't say I have any instructional design experience. I haven't done any of that. I'm like let's look at all these bullet points on your resume and go through them one by one.

If we word it this way, that's exactly what an instructional designer does. You've just been doing it, you just thought about it differently. So yeah, teachers wear like so many hats, do so many things. I'm sure there are plenty other careers where teachers would be transitioning to quite well, but yeah, ID obviously has a lot.

Sean Anderson: One of the ones I saw there is the 21 years of [00:08:00] teaching, fearing that they're too old. And that's something I've seen a lot too. And some of the teachers I've talked about where they've been in the education field for too long, they feel, but consider all the changes, even as a teacher, you've had to make, every few years, and so often, and how much you've had to adapt to changing standards, changing uses of technology integrations in the classroom. So I think that there's a lot more flexibility in your skillset than you might even think, and especially any teacher who went through the pandemic, having to pivot all of their classes onto essentially digital portals, deliver Zoom classes, that's a lot to get used to in a lot of new skill sets to learn. So I think that one of the big things is to also consider you've probably already had to make a lot of pivots in the past and learn a lot of new skills just through the course of teaching by itself.

Devlin Peck: Good point. Carrie mentioned being worried about like job security and layoffs. Okay, yeah. And that's interesting right now. I do know of an instructional designer who got laid [00:09:00] off, I think like last month. IT was an instructional designer who's been doing it for about a year. A quarter of the company evaporated basically overnight, I think, because of these talks about like the recession and j ust like the general news and atmosphere and then I found out yesterday that person already has a new role that they're really excited about. That's a great thing. It's good to hear. You might know who I'm talking about.And I remember my professors at Florida State, a professor who worked 30 plus years and then is teaching and he's, 'I've never had to go more than a week without a job, even without looking'.

Yeah, it seems like there's always a demand for good IDs. I have heard IDs isn't the most like recession-proof field, like when people are doing mass layoffs, like L& D kind of is one of those like non essential functions. But it would have to be pretty dire, I think, for there to be like no ID roles in the market.

I see there's so many roles every single week in the U. S. getting posted at jhundreds. Yeah, that's a fear that it might be bigger than [00:10:00] what you can do with upscaling. But I think I remember being afraid of the same things when I was getting into the field. I'm like, it looks great right now.

But yeah, what if there is a recession or something? What if all the jobs disappear? It does seem like almost too good to be true. Yeah, with COVID, it's only skyrocketed the demand for good IDs because of all the shifts. 

Sean Anderson: Absolutely. And considering that with remote work now, too, I think the overhead is a lot less, too, for certain companies to actually have a learning and development department now.

So I think things in that regard are shifting to where maybe the cost isn't as much either to have a fully remote team than maybe if we're looking at making cuts while also having them on site, too.

Devlin Peck: Yeah, and people are also afraid seeing other people's like portfolios or projects like seeing, they look like really polished people' set those expectations for themselves and then feel discouraged when their work doesn't match up. Did you, how did you grapple with that? Did you have feelings like that?

Sean Anderson: Like looking at some of those really polished portfolios was both [00:11:00] validating and impressive, but intimidating too. And some of those portfolios, they're gorgeous, right? So it makes sense to feel that way at first, but I think a big thing was, and you've preached it throughout the bootcamp too and talking with those same people is that the starting steps didn't look like that, right? And it went through a lot of iterations, a lot of development, and a lot of drafts and revisions before it got there. Especially at the beginning you're still learning the tools so it's not necessarily going to be a fully polished scenario driven eLearning experience from the start. But what's underneath the hood of that polish?

Is those same skills you learn in the first few weeks right of really diving in. And then it's just iterating and then learning and getting feedback and collaborating. And from there you'd be surprised, to the audience I feel ,of what you're actually capable of once you dedicate that time and you have really strong collaborators for sure.

Devlin Peck: Yeah that's the biggest thing when it comes to the quality of work, get feedback from whoever you can, whoever's in your corner, even if they're not particularly in instructional [00:12:00] design, they can still comment on like visuals that seem a little off, or if you're just explaining like the logic of your project and the problem it solves.

They may be able to say, they may be able to poke holes in it possibly just with getting another set of eyes on it. Same thing with going through like a prototype or something. If they're bored, probably a good sign that you can improve things. You don't want hiring managers or potential clients to be bored. So, yeah, feedback is key, whether or not it's from, if you network in the ID space, that's great b ut also friends and family members. I leveraged that a lot when I was first getting into the field. So good stuff. I know too, yeah, there are people who are out for summer break right now. And they don't want to go back to teach for another year. So I know you landed a role previously, but whoever said that I missed it, I went by in the chat pretty quickly, but I, but people are in the same boat as you. I've heard there are a lot of applications from teachers right now. People are getting roles, but it's a lot of teachers trying to get roles before going back to school carries curious if you... 

Sean Anderson: Yeah, absolutely. And maybe that is a good segue for kind of talking about what the [00:13:00] actual timeline was. I did, I left mid year. I left right after winter break. So for us our winter break was a little bit odd, so I did have a couple days at the beginning of January and so my actual last day of work, so in preparation for this, I actually looked at the calendar and there's some trends from that I think are interesting, but I stopped on January 6th was my last day of work. I then got married and went on a honeymoon and then once I came back from the honeymoon it was January 24th is when I knew it.

It was that first Monday back. Yeah. And so January 24th is when I began in earnest, and I started applying for jobs March 9th, and the reason I know that was the first day I started applying to jobs is because I kept a tracker for all my applications. And then from there, yeah. It was about six weeks before I started receiving my first job offers.

So I would say the entire time span from starting the transition to getting a role went from late January to the beginning of April. So about three months total, two and a half [00:14:00] months. So yeah, and we can probably dig into that a bit. No, I made my portfolio during that time frame as well.

Devlin Peck: Yeah, Sean moved through this stuff quicker than most people I've seen, top few percent of people who went through this transition. But part of that had to do with taking that leap, right? Because you weren't, you knew over that winter break, I'm done after this committing 100% to this transition, need to make it happen basically like you felt the fire.

Sean Anderson: I did right and that's one of the big things for all this is why I felt like it was something I needed to do fast was because, so once I recognized in fall that I wanted to maybe pursue this I quickly realized I probably needed to devote full time attention to this, just because I didn't have time after school and on weekends to do both lesson planning, grading, and ID transitioning.

And so to preface all that, my journey is unique to me. I recognize that there's certain privileges involved in me being able to just quit my job and leave, right? I don't have dependents right now that relied upon my income and I have a [00:15:00] wife who I shared insurance with. So stuff like that, right?

But I did have to rely upon the savings I earned in those few months and essentially create my timeline based upon how long my savings would last me. So that's why I moved pretty quickly and there's nothing more motivating to sit down and work than knowing that, you're burning through your reserves, right?

So I've worked full time on this. Like I worked six to seven hours a day on this transition on doing portfolio on upskilling. And that's why I feel like it, it went quickly. So I would say like one of my first tips for this or actionable items is to really structure yourself, like really regiment yourself as much as possible.

But obviously to the time that you have, right? Not everyone's going to have six to seven hours a day. Some of you might now that it's summer. But if you're balancing a full time job, then okay, how much time can you actually dedicate per day? But set your milestone. So I set my long term and knew the day I needed to be applying to jobs by and so I based all my goals around that and created kind of a daily routine that I try to hold myself accountable to and weekly benchmarks that I was trying to hit. Something [00:16:00] that helped me a lot was the timeline that you had for the bootcamp. So Devlin provides a really good timeline as a part of the bootcamp of kind of a suggested approach to getting things accomplished by, and I just tried to do it double speed and, but it was helpful right to be like, okay like I know that I need to have a prototype by this day and I need to have maybe the first drafts on my storyboard done by this time period.

And that's really how I outlined it for myself because then you can hold yourself accountable. And we'll talk about other ways to hold yourself accountable later. I think that having a really good support network and people who can hold you accountable is another aspect of that. But that's how the timeframe worked out.

I saw a couple of things in here that I'd want to make sure I address, because it's a big thing that I hear teachers say a lot. Ivy said, did you have any fear of letting your co workers down by leaving mid year? Yes and no. So this is something that I think holds a lot of teachers back sometimes from this transition.

I'm in one of the community bootcamp groups. I have an awesome group [00:17:00] that we've been meeting every Monday for transitioning teachers. And this is something we've tried talking about and processing before too. I was fortunate that my circle of teachers at the school all felt similar.

Like we tried making teaching work, right? And all this to also say, this isn't meant to like rag on teaching. Teaching's an important profession. We need really good teachers. It just wasn't working for me at the time, right? And they all felt similarly. We tried making it work. We tried, changing the curriculum, taking on classes that we'd be more excited about.

But at the end of the day, working 60 to 70 hours a week for that pay is still going to tax us, right? So my inner circle of teachers at the school who I talked about, we're all in the same mentality of transitioning and some actually have already gone on to become instructional designers and are getting interviews and stuff and other job fields too.

So I didn't only because I felt like if I'm letting anyone down, like it's myself first before my hallway neighbor, and as much as I love them and, want to support them and my students too, I'm not going to be the best [00:18:00] person possible if, I'm out of sleep, I'm emotionally drained and I felt like my responsibility to my wife and my family and myself was a little bit higher than my students and coworkers.

And that's just for me. It wasn't working in that regard. So while there's still some, sadness and guilt because I had great relationships with some of my coworkers and students I got so much more back just in regaining, my personal hobbies and personality and more quality time with my partner.

So that's how I tried navigating that. And I would just, encourage you to maybe think about it, talk about it, and see, prioritize who you owe most, yourself or your co workers, and if they care for you they're probably going to want you to be happiest in whatever role that you find yourself in.

Devlin Peck: Yeah, good point. And yeah, I know a lot of teachers do think about that too, like there's a lot of guilt around leaving. Maybe more so in the middle of the school year and letting, the idea of letting down the students, letting down your coworkers, like that kind of stuff, I think you're at a really good spot with it.

You need to take care of [00:19:00] yourself first, you're not getting what you need. You're not going to be showing up like you need to for the people who are relying on you. But obviously it was a big decision. I'm sure it wasn't an easy decision to make. Yeah, what were you envisioning when you decided to make this huge change when you decided, okay yeah, I'm not coming back in January. I'm going to live off of some savings. It'll get me months out. Yeah, that's a really big change. So what were you envisioning? You already mentioned more time with like your family more free time, essentially, to... 

Yeah, 

Sean Anderson: pretty much honestly and it just to open up about it to one of the first things that my wife had told me, we've been together seven years now. But she told me was that She felt like she'd gotten my personality back, right? Like she hadn't seen me be me in some time. And that to me was like eye-opening. I honestly had to like, really process that because I don't think I really recognized just how much it'd been taking a toll on me. And how much that, that had been, depleting my energy reserves and I was coming home, and this is a lobby full teachers, they know like [00:20:00] I was getting home around six. I was passed out asleep by 8:30, 9, just to do it all over again the next day. Friday evenings I was just crashing, napping before I could even go and think of doing something, right? So that to me the life I was envisioning was essentially one free of that drain, that responsibility, and just embracing, my personality and my hobbies again and going out and exploring the city we live in, and getting more engaged in the things that I care about.

So I think that's what I had envisioned most. And then obviously the long term benefits of better pay, compensation, and advancement too, is a big thing. And that's something I talked about in my interviews too, is that I felt like there was a bit of a ceiling in teaching and I didn't really have any interest in going into admin.

And where do I go next? For me instructional design is also exciting because working at certain companies provides advancement opportunities to gain more leadership roles, gain more opportunity to, work on unique projects, but also that comes with better pay [00:21:00] and benefits and so I felt like it was something that could actually grow with my life and actually, maybe help compete with where things are at in the economy right now and you know actually become a homeowner, those kinds of things too.

Devlin Peck: Okay. Nice. Yeah. So a lot of facets to it, but that's good to hear that. We got, you got that time back to be with yourself and spend more time on those things. So that is good. We are getting through this. I didn't have a quick question prepared about this, but I saw a lot of questions about your portfolio and like what you included in that, w hy that was...

Sean Anderson: Yeah, we need to talk about the portfolio, that was big. 

Devlin Peck: Yeah, so maybe let's just go there next. I saw questions about that. I know you followed my suggestions, which are all free on YouTube. Sean's mentioning the bootcamp, but yeah, all this stuff, the suggestions are all out there for free.

But maybe you can give us an overview of the portfolio process. What did you include in it? How many projects did you have? How did [00:22:00] you decide to build the projects? 

Sean Anderson: Yeah, absolutely. So for me the structured kind of ramp up approach of your bootcamp and Storyline lab is how I learned best.

And so for those who are interested I do recommend it. Because I feel like, and I know it's like the plug here or whatever, but I think if you're looking for a really good onboarding of, lessons and courses to work through, and it really helps bring you up to speed on a lot of really important concepts.

So I took the approach that you suggested of, it's probably better to have one flagship project that's scenario driven, that's visually appealing, that contains all of the smaller, Storyline based skills into one cohesive package as opposed to, multiple small projects. And it also allows you to really show off the process.

And I got a lot of questions about that in interviews too of, having experience with storyboarding, having experience with idea development, with action mapping to mock up designs to eventually the actual iteration on your prototype to a final product. So I felt like that track provided a much better [00:23:00] supplement to the experience I already had as a teacher and a mental health professional to really take me over the edge and interview and applications.

And honestly, it worked to that extent very well. I think the first big thing is once you have a big take, like a tangible project, it's s elf validating too. Like seeing your triggers fired, using conditions and variables, seeing this visual engaging media like in Storyline is self validating of, okay, like maybe this is the right thing for me.

And I know what I'm, talking about and doing and can leverage these skills into one final product, but it also got me attention like on LinkedIn and with other people in the community, seeing the portfolio project, finding it fun, finding the visuals engaging and the writing kind of a little bit funny, and I tried to make it a little bit witty to but under the hood, the actual transition, the actual triggers, the conditions, the branching scenarios, the prescriptive feedback, all of these more concepts that, instructional designers and at jobs and companies are really going to notice i s what I feel [00:24:00] like is really important about that project. And it came up a lot in interviews, too. Like, when I was talking with recruiters on phone screens, they'd say, yeah, I was clicking through your project and I found it, really engaging, and that was a fun narrative. And, the screeners are typically more so like HR recruiters who might not be aware of instructional design stuff and, the Storyline skills that went into it, but even they were hooked on and engaged with it and that motivated them to pass it on to their hiring managers who they know what skills are used in crafting something like that.

And it was a quick way for me to like just plug my portfolio with people when I make a drop job application. So another big tip that I recommend is once you're in a community like this is seeking that opportunities page. That's another thing I checked every day is on the Devlin tech community.

There's an opportunities page that a lot of people will post job openings that are either from their own companies or push to them or recommended to them, or they find it. And that's an awesome place to start your search. And the job I ultimately did take came from that. And there was a hiring manager who [00:25:00] posted their job on opportunities and I applied and then I messaged them on Slack.

And immediately they were like, okay, do you have a resume? And I was like, yeah, I got a resume and I have a portfolio. Boom. And they were able to click on it, look through it. And they were like, okay, immediately they know that. Chances are everything on their job requirements. I can do right. Just from that visual proof.

And so I think that's another testament to having a portfolio. And something I wanted to share that actually just came up this week because I was talking with the project managers on my team about doing this. And she mentioned she was involved in the hiring process, but she's a core figure on our team.

She mentioned that the portfolio was the key thing that set me apart and that they had received hundreds of applications for the position. And at our company we receive a lot of applications from educators, but not all of them take the time to actually showcase their instructional design skills or that they've taken the time to develop something.

And she said that was a key distinguisher, and obviously you stuffed the interview well, but it's what led them to want to [00:26:00] find out more from me. And if I hadn't had that portfolio I probably wouldn't ever have gotten this job or made it so far and other interviews that I had, as well.

Devlin Peck: We have some really good questions coming in, but it just reminded me this is a story that really stuck with me for the power of a portfolio. Can we talk about the showing up late situation? I mean we don't have to. 

Sean Anderson: Yeah, so this one embarrassing on my end so another tip is to make sure that when you schedule zoom interviews you triple check the time and so for some reason the time that I took from the email was 30 minutes off of the actual Zoom time. So I showed up 30 minutes late to my Zoom meeting and this is one of my first round two interviews I've gone through the screener.

So I was super excited and nervous for this opportunity. I was literally sitting by the computer, going through my notes in preparation for the interview as the interview was happening, apparently. And so the recruiter emailed me and they said, 'Hey what happened? I thought you were [00:27:00] really excited for this'.

And I was like, 'Oh' and so I apologize. And I said, 'Hey, I recognize that, interviews, razor thin margins. So this is enough that you don't really need to consider me any further. I get that.' And they were like, 'let me talk to the hiring manager. And so she agreed to meet with me regardless'.

And she said it was only because of the portfolio, right? That she saw something in that portfolio that she knew I had the skills. So they were willing to still see me and meet with me. So it saved me in that regard and from then on I always got my dates 100% correct but yeah, absolutely that's the testament to be like, 'Hey, maybe like we'll give them a second chance' and honestly it went really well because from there she said m y ability to pivot and to still maintain my composure and meet with her and talk with her and not be completely freaked out also showed some resiliency because things happen.

And I just want to say hey to join the chat side, because there's some of our group members are here. My team. Yeah. 

Devlin Peck: But I just love that story too. Because I've talked about that for years. Like the kind of the grace that like a [00:28:00] good portfolio gives you like coming into an interview. It gives, it's a very different experience going into the interview when they've already seen your portfolio and really respect the work that you do than it is when they like don't really know who you are.

They're like wary. Yeah, you can get a lot forgiven if you're demonstrating those skills in a portfolio. And so you have one project in your portfolio. It's just the flagship project, right? 

Sean Anderson: That's correct, yeah. 

Devlin Peck: People are asking how many projects. That's what we recommend to you if you have that one really good flagship project, that's usually enough to get you where you're trying to go because it does show off so many of the skills like Sean was mentioning, so people are asking about the topic too. Do you want to, so how did you decide on flight attendant?

Sean Anderson: Okay, yeah, so my wife is a flight attendant. So as a part of the action mapping stage as well as getting used to the idea of idea development, I wanted to mimic that SME idea and so we ran a couple ideas to b ounce off each other. And he told me like, 'that seems like the one to go with', right?

You're going to get that experience of talking with an expert kind of finding out what are some of the issues that they're facing in their industry and what are some things that can [00:29:00] maybe help solve those knowledge or skill gaps, right? So that's how we came across that idea, and or, Settled on that idea.

And then I just ,from there it was a lot of fun because I got to really consult her for any, technical things or, how do they use customer reports or even just the actual visuals of the flight. And so it was good because then it also allowed me to speak about how I used her in my interviews too when developing that project.

And obviously something I'll say as a teacher is that you consult subject matter experts almost daily. And that's one of those things that, to learn to translate into instructional design terms. So there's that experience too, but using her also gave me another element of that.

Devlin Peck: Yeah, that's what we recommend with the flagship project. Either do something that you're really like, you're the subject matter expert on from like roles that you've held, or if you have a friend or family member who would be willing to spend the time with you, you could use them as your subject matter expert and and go through those questions, that line of questioning that Sean's talking about.

But we recommend a friend or [00:30:00] family member because they may need to spend like hours with you. You may be on a tighter timeline. You don't have to wait weeks for someone to meet who is just a random acquaintance. So if you do have a spouse or a close friend who has a role that's like maybe more interesting than what you're currently doing, or you don't want to make your project about teaching, working with the subject matter expert, that's how you'll talk about it in interviews, and the writeup can be a good way to go.

Good stuff. I see more questions rolling in there. Are there any that you saw, Sean, that you want to take a go at? I think I still have a couple prepared for you over here too. 

Sean Anderson: I saw somebody mentioned the website. And we can talk about that too. I didn't code my own portfolio website.

I use Squarespace. So for me, once again, it was about efficiency and time just because I was working against the time crunch of being unemployed, a nd so needing to get to applying to jobs quicker and sooner. While it's not going to allow the same degree of customization, I found Squarespace to be really strong and still present something that was polished, and I was able to do it in a weekend with more time in the future.

I definitely love digging into [00:31:00] that. But for me, I felt like that was one of those areas to not spend a ton of extra, time on and just do something that was quick and polished. 

Devlin Peck: Okay, good. So you finished your portfolio site, you updated your resume to make it a bit more instructional design focused. People may have questions about that. We have a whole webinar we did. I'm on the channel about that. At that point, you started applying, so maybe we can start talking about the application process. Was that what you, is it what you expected? Yeah, what was the application process like? 

Sean Anderson: So in some respects, far more challenging than I expected, right?

There was a lot of mental hurdles to really have to overcome. And I think that's the biggest takeaway from that experience is that it felt more of a marathon, like a mental stamina or marathon in that regard than anything else. And it's more so because I just, I'm throwing out all these applications and I'm not hearing back from people.

And what's funny is I was looking at the timeline of this and I started [00:32:00] applying March 9th and received offers six weeks later. So from that, objectively, that probably isn't that long of amount of time, right? But when you're in it and either, you don't have a job or you're stuck in a job where you're very unhappy, one to two weeks feels like forever.

And this is something we've been talking about in my team group too, and not getting any kind of traction feels so demoralizing and defeating and so that was the biggest roadblock to try to overcome immediately was like, how to make energy and motivation to get back on the computer, research more jobs, apply to more jobs, edit my resume write more cover letters, and it was hard.

I mean there was days in there where I had, 30, 40 applications out there and haven't heard anything back. And i'm just like, shoot like maybe this isn't for me. And maybe I really like grossly misjudged my ability in this field or that I would stand out, and I think that's a common concern that I hear from a lot of people in this and so some of the things that eventually started helping me as [00:33:00] trying to be a little bit kinder to myself and to just recognize that you have to push through it a little bit ,right ? Yes it doesn't feel good to either get rejections or just nothing back, but the alternative is not doing anything and that's certainly not going to get me closer to a job, right?

And so the alternative for me was look at everything as positive momentum forward, right, or so if somebody sent me a rejection email, you know what the positive momentum forward is? Now I have an answer from that company, like where I stand. I don't have to think about them anymore 

if I had a recruiter screen and I get a follow up interview, I've got some experience with talking to a recruiter. I saw what worked well in the phone call maybe didn't work well on the phone. And the fact that I was getting screens meant okay, we're getting us there, right? And so I kept trying to look at it as, where I'm at today is far closer than where I've been fall 2021, in January 2022 and so that's what I'm looking at as positive momentum.

I'm getting [00:34:00] views on my LinkedIn profile. Great. I wasn't getting views a month ago, right? I'm getting clicks on my website. Wasn't getting that done. Starting up conversations with people in the industry. These things add up slowly over time and I feel like it's not as quantifiable as like a job offer like right away, but it does work.

And ultimately what's led to my best opportunities is those conversations I had with people who worked in companies. I had great conversations with people who worked at Amazon and other companies, and they were willing to put in a good word or a referral because of those conversations.

And so networking was key and that's something you can still do each day. And so it's recognizing like, all right, my applications are out there. Can't do anything for those right now. So what else can I do? Can I tweak my resume? Can I tweak my website? Can I strike up a conversation with somebody?

And that made me feel like I was at least doing something and not a victim of the circumstances or anything like that. 

Devlin Peck: Very nice. Okay. Great response. Yeah. So it feels [00:35:00] scary when you're in it. Yeah. Every day that goes by without some sort of offer or new interviews. I know it feels like, scary.

Especially when you're like, yeah, when you're out of work at the moment or needing to escape something. I think, yeah, people can definitely relate to that. 

Sean Anderson: Something we were just talking about on Monday too is, we had another one of our team members recently accept a job and she was talking about how she was still getting rejection emails after having already started at her new job from interviews that she'd applied to.

And that happened to me too, where applications I'd sent out months ago, I was getting rejection emails. And what was funny is we commented on how those rejection emails I just looked at, smiled and deleted and it didn't, all of a sudden speak to my worth or say that I was a failure or anything like that.

So what's funny is after you have a job, those emails stop mattering and are no longer like a testament of your self worth. But before you had a job, somehow they were right. So it just shows that like the mentality of this is such a key component within it, right? Of that self talk. And there's already so many factors that make this harder that your negative self [00:36:00] shouldn't have to be an additional factor.

And it's hard, something to really work on throughout the process too.

Devlin Peck: Yeah, and it sounds like you've found a really healthy way to deal with that instead of looking at it so black and white. Am I employed as an instructional designer right now, or am I not? You started looking at all these other signals for success, all these other data points that you can use that will help you be more successful in the future. New connections. Yeah, so that's nice to see, focusing more on the progress you're making, no matter how incremental that progress is. It sounds like that helped your mindset a lot as you were going through this. 

Sean Anderson: Yes.

Devlin Peck: Good suggestion. Very nice. I see some other questions. Let's get, I think I just have one or two more questions for Sean, and then we'll just open it up for general Q& A. Anything you want to ask Sean about, feel free to. I have a couple more questions. One's about the hardest roadblock. I know that one's a bit personal. But maybe it's... Just yeah, things will come up again. Yeah any unexpected roadblocks that you dealt with? 

Sean Anderson: Yeah, so [00:37:00] definitely bigger roadblock than would be expected, than would normally be expected.

My grandmother actually unexpectedly passed away at the end of March and so she essentially raised me and it came out of nowhere. So this is like right in the middle of interviews. And I spent the week in the ICU with her. And so that like completely rocked everything, and it's so funny, really put things into perspective to have, a week ago getting a job was the biggest worry on my mind and it seems so small then when I'm sitting in the hospital, right?

So she unfortunately did pass away. And this is literally like the weekend right before I'm scheduled for three round three interviews. And so that was a really hard time to navigate emotionally, mentally. Obviously, the loss was massive. But at the same time too I still needed to attend to these interviews too.

And so it was a really weird time of trying to compartmentalize certain things to still make these [00:38:00] interviews happen, but also to recognize like the, one of the big things that I really want to bring up today is like the values of what you're seeking in a job too.

And when I was in the hospital, nobody talked about what her career was or what her job was or how many interviews or job offers she got. And so for me, it really helped put things into perspective. And I was like, okay, like it, it doesn't need to like, completely dominate my life as it had been mentally up until this point.

And instead reinforced the type of values that I wanted in a job that were going to provide me with more time with my family, more time with my hobby, more time with self development to process these things. So if anything, it really reinforced what I want out of a job and really made choosing. my job a lot easier too, and because it aligned with those things that I wanted. Yeah, exactly. Definitely a grounding experience. I saw that in the chat. So that's one of the biggest things to suggest to people is make a list of your values based, like non negotiables, essentially. [00:39:00] Because at the beginning of this transition, you're going to feel a lot different than when you're in the middle of a bunch of rejection emails, maybe facing, returning calls. You're not having a job. And so it'll be easy to just accept the first job that someone offers you, right? But if it's not aligning with the things that you really want, then you have to try to, in my eyes, try to hold on to wait a little bit further for the opportunity that does align with the things you want, right? For me, it wasn't just about getting a different job.

It was to complete lifestyle change and finding a job that would also provide me with those lifestyle changes and reinforce the values I was hoping to live.

Devlin Peck: So let's talk about about that. So you had this grounding experience, you experienced this loss and how to like, grapple with all of those emotions, but coming out of it, going into these interviews, you knew you were going to stand by these values. You didn't want to be in the same situation you were with teaching where you wouldn't have time for yourself, even let alone your family.

Yeah, what about, so how many offers did you wind up receiving? How did you choose [00:40:00] between them? Maybe we can talk a little bit about that. 

Sean Anderson: Yeah there were two main offers I received that week. And I'd made it really one of the other jobs that had signaled, like a lot of interest that they were going to hire me, decided to postpone the position just out of a lack of funds or whatnot.

And then I had another like round three interview scheduled for the week after, but I didn't want to risk declining these jobs and then going into that and whatnot. So there were really two main job offers that I was trying to decide. And it's funny because they were essentially the opposite ends of the spectrum for this, and really reinforced those values, like one was far more money than I've ever considered I could make in my lifetime. And like, double my teaching salary, but they were very open about, they wanted people in the office. They wanted people staying late. They really pride themselves on like weekend work and brainstorming.

That's great for their company and the people who love doing that. There's a lot of people who love committing that amount of time and are passionate about that. But for me, those are some signs of maybe this isn't level between the two of us. I'd be the only learning [00:41:00] developer on the team, the only instructional designer.

And so that was a lot of responsibility too for the company. And so I was like, this might be a little bit beyond where I'm comfortable as well as right versus the other job. Less pay, but I clicked with the team and the personality immediately in the interview. And the culture was really strong.

The manager was great. And there were a bunch of other benefits that hadn't been advertised. This is another tip that I encourage and we talk about on our team too, is to talk openly with the team about what benefits beyond just compensation exist, right? So many other things like unlimited paid time off, they pay some my student loans each month, like all of these additional things like 10% bonuses every year. Things I'd never would have considered when teaching, right, I didn't know were out there were a part of this package that we discussed in the interviews, right? And having a promotional track that didn't just require becoming a manager like, they retain talent. So they invest in their talent and allow them to get risky promotions while [00:42:00] staying in a similar job role and not having to all of a sudden be a manager, and all those things which was what I was looking for, so it was easy to make that decision.

And for me, it turned out what on face value was less money, but what ultimately I think I made up in a far broader suite of packages and people that I'm working with too, right? Feeling like I had a good team and was a part of a good, healthy culture too. 

Devlin Peck: Nice. Okay, great example. Yeah, not always about how much, how many dollar signs can we get and it's actually after, yeah, especially having those values that you had coming into this, it probably was a fairly easy choice when you realize: have good work life balance and all these other benefits. Yeah, I could see why you would make that choice. And then I saw a question.

How are you feeling about your new lifestyle? Because you've been doing this for a few months. 

Sean Anderson: Yes. 

Devlin Peck: Is it all that you expected? 

Sean Anderson: Yeah, it is a whole different, it's a whole different world, honestly. So I work from home [00:43:00] 100% remote. So wonderful to not have to commute two hours a day to spend a bunch of money on gas and tolls.

It's significantly more manageable. I don't think about work on my nights or my weekends. I'm not stressed on Sunday nights. I'm not dreading my Mondays. I am encouraged to get up and take pics and go on walks in the middle of the day. My team is really good about encouraging, taking up your environment too, have a manager who sometimes is gardening during our planning meetings, right?

It's just like, things like that. Like it's a whole different lifestyle shift. And it's honestly very shocking to me that positions like this existed, right? Considering what I was, and a lot of the teachers here were living like before. And it really adds up in small ways, right?

That time that you're getting back without, I wanted remote, but not everyone does, but time I'm getting back, not having to commute, the time I'm getting to save. If, on my, I'm cooking my own lunch and throwing in a load in the washer, right? Like ways like that really help out with my [00:44:00] general stress levels.

And the fact that I can work and if my wife is around, I can still chat with her while I'm working. And it doesn't impact my productivity. The managers trust me to get the job done. They understand I know my tasks. I get that stuff done. So there's no micromanaging. I and that's huge, and it feels good to be trusted as a professional and to also be learning too, and to have really great mentors at my company and teaching me, you know, filling skill gaps that maybe I personally had, or you know trying to train me up in other areas and tools. So it's been a really great overall shakeup. And I just saw something come in there from Elizabeth that I do want to talk about too, because that's another big one that I see teachers talk about is the summers. And summer break is always like that great equalizer for teachers and like the thing that makes it worth it.

So here's my mindset now that I've been doing this. Two months off is fantastic. But for me, it's so much like more like boom or bust, like the months that you are working as a [00:45:00] teacher are so much more taxing and debilitating. And my, at least it's not for everybody that I didn't feel like those two months were worth it.

And frankly I personally spent the second half of July worrying about this on the corner, and pre-planning, and getting my curriculum ready, getting my classroom and my textbooks ready, all that stuff, right? So it's almost, you're really looking at it like it's not as great of a summer as you might think, right?

It's so much more time spread out throughout the year now that I don't feel it as much, and not every company will do this, but like my company they gave us an extended July 4th break because they said that people need time to rest and to be with their family. So they gave us Friday and Tuesday off of that July 4th weekend as well .And so I've had like short weeks already, at the, at work and we have time off and it's encouraged to take that time off.

So I feel like it's balancing, and so I would encourage as one of like, maybe your non negotiables to put that on for jobs. It's okay, like they[00:46:00] make sure that you do get time off and recharge and rest because, that summer is good, but when you start to really look at it, it might not be as cracked up as you might think it is.

Devlin Peck: Yeah, lots of agreement from the teachers in the chat. Heidi's saying, all of June is like a recovery period, then July is just getting started again, and then you're back. Seems that a lot of that resonates with a lot of people. But that is awesome that you're in such a better spot with, even, it sounds like this compared to teaching, it's like this is like a part time job, compared to, the double part time teaching, with the commute that, like working 40 hours a week, it'd just be, set to that schedule is essentially almost like part time compared to teaching.

Sean Anderson: Absolutely, which is wild. Yeah. 

Devlin Peck: Especially with that two hour commute in there. That must have really added up. 

Sean Anderson: Absolutely. 

Devlin Peck: But okay, so we have five or six minutes left. I know you prepared some actionable tips for us. 

Sean Anderson: Yeah 

Devlin Peck: Do we want to hear some actionable tips or do we want to handle some questions from the chat?

What do you all think? [00:47:00] Answer questions or actionable tips? 

Sean Anderson: Okay, yeah. Because I'm like, I wanted to try to prepare some stuff too, because it's, we're talking about this, but I want to hopefully, some stuff that worked for me that might work for others. So my number one is get support.

For me, that was my family, my wife, a mentor in Dublin, but also my teacher, my bootcamp group of teachers. And so we met every Monday night and that was an excellent place to share deliverables, to collect the workshop, and to just vent and have sessions like this where we just chat about the demands.

And to try to motivate ourselves to put in that application ,to write that cover letter. So you need that. And we held each other accountable, right? Like we would make goals and nobody's getting on anyone if you don't meet your goal. But I would find myself saying, oh, I'm meeting with my group tonight. I should get that deliverable done so that way I can show it to them. So I think that's really helpful as a part of that structure. So the self talk, we already mentioned that. I think just trying to watch that self talk and being kind to yourself because there's already so many other factors and forces that might be tough.

You don't need to add on to that. Stay regimented with [00:48:00] structure, and try to follow through on that. It's a lot easier to schedule yourself to just do 2 hours each day than to try to cram it all in at the end. And you're going to get a lot more done chipping away at it as opposed to just trying to power through in a week.

One of the big things is to not be afraid to go forward on some of these job listings, too. It's the famous Michael Scott, Wayne Gretzky quote of, 'You're going to miss 100 shots that you don't take', right? It's true. Like even if you feel like you only fit 75 to 80% of the job listing, it's still worthwhile to throw an application, and the worst you think they're going to say is no, and then you're back to where you were if you hadn't applied, right?

And so I think you might surprise yourself that sometimes those job listings are generated by HR teams and not always 100% what the actual role is and you never know, right? The big thing for me was also, some of the people mentioned in here and we didn't really get into it, but there's tons of videos on this. Devlin's had videos on this too and other webinars, but learn how to translate your teaching experience into actionable instructional design skills. Everything you do [00:49:00] in teaching really does translate. You work with subject matter experts every day. You're working with LMSs essentially, to a certain degree. Like things like Google Classroom have a lot of similarities with an LMS, a learning management software where you're uploading materials and stuff .You're already using tools like Canva sometimes, presentations. Canvas is another one, Blackboard is another one, and so you're already using all these like tech tools that, every day as a teacher, that you can translate and discuss in your interview process too and developing your curriculum. Your project management skills are you developing and delivering your curriculum. Your assessment skills are delivering tests to students, right?

Your data analysis skills are reviewing those test results, and making new choices based upon that, right? So a lot of what you're doing translates really well. And ideally, your lessons are grounded in learning theory, so you're already using a lot of those adult learning principles and multimedia principles when you're creating presentations.

So [00:50:00] those are things I would really spend some time translating and really getting comfortable speaking that way. So I had a list of it, and it prepared for all my interviews, and I would rehearse it, so that way you're comfortable speaking in that vernacular. 

Devlin Peck: And I just want to dive in for that for one second. I would say other than building your portfolio and showing off the in demand skills, that's like the other most important thing you could possibly do is learn how to reframe your past experience as instructional design experience, because that's going to help you when it comes to optimizing your LinkedIn, preparing your resume, and acing those interviews. That's a very important piece. So I'm glad you brought that up. 

Sean Anderson: Another one, try to be practical teachers. There are a lot of teachers I know, and I know I was this way, are a bit of perfectionists and like to try to make things as great and beautiful and designed as possible.

But sometimes you do need to use Squarespace to create a website and not do it from scratch, right? Just so you can finish it within the weekend and get those applications. And sometimes you need to throw in an application, even if maybe your portfolio can use a little bit more polish or [00:51:00] you're still working on your about me section on the website.

Don't wait for everything to be perfect. Because it might not actually be, by the time maybe sometimes those applications are being reviewed, you've already handled that thing that's holding you back too right? The last one, honestly, the thing that I think really sets things apart in the interview process and will make it a much more enjoyable experience for you is, let your personality shine, but also really try to connect with the mission of the organization or company and have a conversation about that if you feel like it does mesh with your personality or your interest levels.

Because anytime I started talking about that with the hiring manager, is when the interview took a completely different turn and was much more positive and fun for you too, right? In all honesty like in my interview, right ,the job I ultimately accepted, they asked me, 'what would you do if someone just gave you a million dollars' and I said, 'I would travel. But then I would probably buy a bunch of comic books because i'm a nerd and I like collecting comic books', right?

But then that opened up this conversation about my passions and my interests, and then we were able to eventually tie things also [00:52:00] about how my passions for learning tied into my company's education software. And another company I talked to created software for trades and labors, and I talked to how my stepfather had been a craftsman and how these tools have been helpful.

And so it leads to a much more organic conversation, but the one thing, X factor, that you have in your interviews and your applications is that you are the only person who has your personality. And so that's the thing you really need to highlight, everybody, o r I'm sorry, there might be several people in an application who are qualified. They're probably going to be reviewing dozens of qualified people do the job. But the thing that you have, right, is yourself. And so really try to hone in and shine on that because that's what's ultimately going to, I think, set you apart and lead to a much more enjoyable experience for you as well.

Devlin Peck: Beautiful. Thank you, Sean. Let's get some applause emojis in the chat. Thanks, Sean, for being here. That is really nice. But yeah, we're at the top of the hour. Thanks for joining us. I [00:53:00] just shared a featured action to connect with you on LinkedIn. People want to follow along with your journey and just see what you're up to.

We shared your portfolio link in the chat, so we'll share a bunch of relevant links in the description. So thank you again, Sean. Thank you, everyone. You're a great audience. Great, great questions and insights. 

Sean Anderson: Thank you, everybody. And best of luck. 

Devlin Peck: Keep us posted on your progress in the audience.

Sean Anderson: Good luck to everybody. 

Devlin Peck: We'll see you all soon. 

Sean Anderson: There's definitely another side and feel free to message me if you want to talk further. 

Devlin Peck: Perfect. Thank you, Sean. Thanks, everyone. 

Sean Anderson: Take care. 

Devlin Peck: See you next time.