Devlin Peck: [00:00:00] Welcome to our series on freelancing as an instructional designer. Freelancing offers a lot of autonomy and flexibility and can be a great way to break into the field. In this series, we’ll hear from designers with successful freelance ID businesses, and hear valuable insights from Q&A sessions that can help you jumpstart your own instructional design career. So let’s dive into episode 1 in the series, Starting your Freelance eLearning Business with Robbie Christian.

Devlin Peck: Alright, hello everyone. We are here with Robbie Christian today to discuss freelancing. Particularly getting the freelance business started. So I met Robbie in the bootcamp last year and Robbie built his portfolio, got it online, did a lot of networking.

We're going to dive into the story, but you landed your first client in August and you're fully booked turning away work in November of 2021. It's been very impressive seeing how quickly he's been successful. It's no surprise because, yeah, Robbie's been so supportive in the community every step of the way, some of you, most of you probably recognize Robbie but let's dive into it, Robbie. 

Robbie Christian: Yeah, let's do it.[00:01:00] 

Devlin Peck: Alright, I guess to start things off, Robbie, why don't you tell us how you landed on instructional design because you're coming from scientific scuba diving. I don't think we've heard of anyone transitioning from that field before. 

Robbie Christian: Yeah, I don't think anybody has transitioned from that field because the field is so small. It is exceptionally small. Scuba diving alone is small, but then scientific diving is even smaller. From that, I think it was about 2010 that my boss and I recognized that we were going to need to expand the program. The demand was starting to outweigh the supply that we could offer for the classes. And so we wanted to be proactive and come up with a way that we can teach more people. And so we thought, okay let's move all of our content onto a, an e learning platform and we got a quote for it and it was much higher than we had expected the quote to be. Looking back at it, it was really low, but in the time at 2010 we didn't know any different or [00:02:00] 2011 maybe. And so we looked at each other and we're like, how about I just sit down and create it all? And that was the beginning of my journey into instructional design without ever knowing what instructional design was.

So I was in that job for 10 years designing and developing that curriculum and those courses, and tweaking them and building that skill set. And then when 2021 rolled around and I left that position, I didn't even know what instructional design was, even though I was doing it. So I felt like I just started out into the instructional design field even though I had been doing that work for so long. [Okay, so...] that was how I came about it. 

Devlin Peck: Many people here can probably relate. You are doing a completely separate role, but you wind up taking on some instructional design responsibilities. I'm sure we have some people transitioning from teaching here.

And honestly, like I said to people, like whatever field you're coming from, I'm sure you can find some overlap. But you were [00:03:00] actually designing and developing eLearning. Directly part of the job. [Yeah.] So you were doing that, you didn't know about instructional design as a field, but then when it was time for something new, you were like, I guess you were researching things, you were like, wait, this is exactly what I've been doing.

And then you were working full time when you were working in that field. So why did you decide freelance is the way to go for instructional design? 

Robbie Christian: Yeah when I decided to do instructional design, it was actually your content that I stumbled upon online that was how to be an instructional designer.

And I, I started looking through that and figuring out what it was that I needed to do and signed up for the bootcamp. And had a great experience in the bootcamp figuring out what it was that I needed to do to be successful in the field. And a lot of that starts with building a portfolio.

And as I was going through that process I realized I was doing a lot of evaluating as many of [00:04:00] us in the Great Resignation have done of figuring out like what's important to me, what do I value above all? And so it really offered me an opportunity to think about that and recognize that the flexibility to set my own work schedule and only answer to myself was something that was, extremely valuable to me.

And so as I was going through the bootcamp and building up my portfolio and working on the flagship project and everything on the back end, I was also starting an LLC and figuring out a brand for myself and figuring out, how do I become a freelancer through all of this? And I've never looked back from that decision of just going straight into it.

I always thought back in, in 2021, when I made this move, I thought that I was going to be a two to five years in a full time position. Trying to find like that corporate job that everybody's after and build up [00:05:00] the skills, work on a team, cut my teeth in the industry. And then from there. Then spread my own wings and fly but as things were happening I decided against that and I ditched that plan and decided to go freelance all the way from right out of the gate.

Devlin Peck: Nice. Okay. So it seems like you decided that pretty early. You're like, this seems possible. This is what you really want for that flexibility. So you were just... Commit to that 100%. We're not even going to apply to full time jobs, just freelance or bus, basically. 

Robbie Christian: Yeah, and I think I missed out on a lot of full time opportunities, and it was really frustrating and challenging.

I think I spoke with you about that. At that time, most of the opportunities that I saw coming through were all for full time work. And I didn't want that. And so I kept looking and kept looking, and it was harder for me to find freelance opportunities than it was to find full time work opportunities.

And I felt, there were times, there were [00:06:00] moments where I felt like I was just shooting myself in the foot by ignoring and looking past, completely overlooking all of these perfectly good work opportunities but I never gave them any time of day. I never applied. I never looked into it. I had my sights set on what I knew that I wanted to do.

And I stuck to my guns and just followed through with all that. 

Devlin Peck: Yeah, and you and I have become friends over this course of time. We realized we were both in South Florida at the time. We know we've gotten food, gotten drinks, like we've hung out at the pool. So we've obviously been, had a front row view to like how this has happened. And I remember the first time we were hanging out and it was just like, 'I don't know if it's going to work out and everything', and like Taylor and I still talk about it. Like, it feels like just yesterday we're like, ' there's nothing to worry about, like you're going to do really well. It is hard in the beginning, like yeah it's tough especially the first year'. But I didn't even expect that you would be so successful so fast once that first client rolled in.[00:07:00] 

But it's no surprise because seeing all the stuff that you were doing, which we're going to get into around how you got that first client, how you built it up. So definitely not surprising. And yeah, that attitude obviously helped you get there. So let's dive into that preparation, which I think has a lot to do with why you were so successful so fast.

How did you prepare for that, for freelancing full time, for that transition from a full time worker to, okay, now I'm landing my first freelance client. What did you do in the interim? You mentioned portfolio building. 

Robbie Christian: Yeah, I worked on the portfolio sort of developed a brand. So I have a master's degree from the business school here in Miami and there was a lot that I took away from that, that I developed into what I do now as a freelancer.

And a big part of that is branding. Like you have to know who you are, you have to know what you want to do in the workforce, what types of jobs you want to take on, and you have to understand how to how to sell yourself in that sense, to let people know, to position yourself in the right place, [00:08:00] to let people know you're here and this is what you do.

 And that was very different from my old job, that I didn't have to think about that at all. I just showed up to work and everything was all right there. So it was a bit of a mental shift. Like I said, I never did full time instructional design.

I went straight into freelance. And so my experience in the industry has only been with freelance. And I don't think that's particularly common, but I feel like I'm making it work so far. My strategy when I started out was actually against a lot of the recommendations that I was hearing from other people, not from you, but from other people around that typically when you start out in your job, you want to start with the low hanging fruits.

That you want to take the low paying jobs, you want to just get something, you want to get work. And I actually took an opposite approach. I was privileged enough to have the luxury to weather a storm for a couple months. And so during those couple months, while I didn't have any [00:09:00] work, I was pricing any opportunity I found. I would price it really high. And that wasn't working, and so I would notch it down just a tiny bit. That wasn't working, I would notch it down just a tiny bit. And the less patient that I became, and the more time that was running out on that, the lower those proposals would drop and eventually one landed. And once that landed, then I started, okay can I ratchet it back up again with every opportunity that came from there? 

Devlin Peck: Okay, yeah, so I can relate as well. I dove right into the freelancing, as you know. I mean, I know we talked about that.

I haven't worked full time in this space. Also saw that advice. I also thought, yeah, I need to work full time for a couple of years. But I know we've talked about pricing and stuff, and we talked about where do you want to fall on that. That is a bold approach that I don't think is very common.

I think the advice you hear like, the approach I did take is, okay start low, start hourly, work your way up, with each project go higher, but you're like, I'm not gonna do that. I'm gonna work the other way. I don't want to underprice myself, I'd rather [00:10:00] overprice myself, lose a project or two or five, and then find that sweet spot, and then work my way back up. I like that.

Robbie Christian: And it was really frustrating, and I needed to have a lot of discipline and a lot of patience and a lot of humility going through that process, because I mean I spent ten years in a career that is a tiny field, a tiny industry, and so like, I was establishing a name for myself, like I really was.

I was moving up in that field. And so now to transition over to an enormous industry and sort of be a nobody starting from square one, like I just didn't want to start at the bottom. I wanted to shoot for the stars and see, okay, how high can I go and see what came from that? So it's a process. It's definitely a process. And I'm still learning a lot. 

Devlin Peck: Yeah, and just talking about like your branding because you're mentioning that and you recognize, yeah, you are building a name for yourself in this big sea compared to the field you're coming from, at least. I like [00:11:00] the approach that you use with just like supporting the community, obviously, because I see how effective that is.

I love the attitude you bring for it. You know, for those of you who may or may not know like, yeah, we have a bootcamp program where we help people with their portfolios. Robbie volunteered to lead a team in there. Robbie had like, agendas, and he was like keeping everyone in shape, making sure everyone's succeeding.

People are posting their stuff for feedback, that like I'm giving feedback on. Everything I'm looking at, Robbie has like detailed comments that it seems like he spent like an hour going through just to help people taking the time out of his own day. And then I see you on LinkedIn too, like helping people and supporting people.

So that is obviously the approach I took, which was helpful. And like seeing you embody that, that's why when it came time for like Bootcamp Pros, I'm like, can I pay you as the freelancer to like help support people in the bootcamp now that your schedule is so full? Can we get back some more of that time?

Just because you, do like embody the community's values so well, like you are so supportive and helpful and all of that. So I imagine that has something to do with how quickly you're able to grow your freelance business. Like people [00:12:00] pick up on that energy, you know, you communicate well, like that obviously helps when you're a freelancer.

Both for building your brand and name, but also when you're on calls with potential clients. 

Robbie Christian: Yeah, I totally think that's huge because there have even been times where I'll be working with a potential client and I'll spend one, two, three, I think somebody I ended up spending like, 10 hours working with him on the front end of a lot of what he was trying to do.

He had no idea what his vision was. And so I sort of walked through like, okay, you need to figure out your content. You need to figure out a, a storyboard or a script, and then you do this. And I was doing it sort of in hopes that like, I would be that guy that he hires to then do the development, but knowing that might not be the case. And it's okay if that's not the case. It's okay to give 10 hours of my time over the course of a month or two, helping somebody out and then not getting that project. That's totally fine. And I think there is the culture in instructional design that I've seen that [00:13:00] is very community based, that we're here to help everybody out, whether we're just starting out or whether we're industry veterans for decades. I think it's important that like our goal is just for people to learn and grow in everything. And I think it's important to, help further that mission in what we do. 

Devlin Peck: Yeah, you embody that well. You're helping create your competition here. I mean your competition, like this is the right way to go about it, right? Like, to share what you know, help others grow.

I love that. I think we all can recognize that in the ID community, how supportive it is. That is why my full time job now is like helping support the community, like I wouldn't have it any other way. Alright, so landing that first client. So you talked about pricing , your approach you used with that.

You built your portfolio and obviously put a lot of hours into that, you featured, you created a new project to highlight on there, but you also maybe cleaned up or like just presented some of the projects you worked on from your previous career. So you built out a pretty [00:14:00] robust portfolio website that looks good. How did you land your first client though? Did you just optimize your LinkedIn and people were coming to you? I know you were reaching out to some people. Like, let's talk about that approach. What efforts did you do when you're like, my portfolio is done? I know I can do the work. I have some sort of a pricing strategy in mind. How do you actually go out there and get a client? I think that's what most people are interested in. 

Robbie Christian: Yeah, so I was doing a shotgun approach. Starting out because nobody knew who I was.

And so I was trying to position myself everywhere. So I was on LinkedIn. I was trying to connect with people. Anytime that I would attend an event like this, I would connect with somebody and comment, send them a message that was relevant to something that we just both attended together and grew the network like that, and I saw my LinkedIn views going up and up, and I was like, alright, great, I'm doing something right, and then on the Slack channel, I was hitting it from that angle.

 And I was all over that. Anytime an opportunity would pop up, [00:15:00] I would follow through with it, if it was not full time. And I was just putting myself out there as much as I possibly could. And it was actually somebody who found my portfolio out of the blue

who then messaged me on LinkedIn. So all of this active work that I was doing, it was actually the passive portfolio that ended up catching that first client. He messaged me on LinkedIn. We connected. What's ironic is when I sent him a proposal, it was so high that he came back and he was like, 'I don't think you understand the scope of this work'.

And he was totally right. And I was so relieved that after 10 different proposals that I had written and sent people over the past month, or a little bit more than a month, somebody finally turned back around and gave me feedback. It was like, 'no, I see your proposal and I see what you're trying to do, but I think I misrepresented the project here.

This is what I want you to do. Can you redo your proposal?' And so I knocked it down [00:16:00] by I don't know, like 40 percent or something and totally rewrote the scope of what it was and he was really willing to work with me and we sort of went from there and it worked out really well. [Nice.]

And so I was really happy that somebody finally responded back because in my journey, and if anybody else is looking to follow in those same footsteps, there's a lot of silence that you get. You'll submit proposals and maybe you'll get a, 'okay, received, we'll like, we'll be in touch', but maybe you'll get nothing and it's just total silence, and it can be really frustrating and demoralizing sometimes when you don't know why nobody is actually hiring you. 

Devlin Peck: So the client felt comfortable enough with you from, I imagine, the discovery call or any communications you've had where it's seems like we should be able to make this work. Looks like Robbie Maeve thought this was more work than we actually need, and he was Open to working with you on that.

That's nice. Because [yeah] sometimes it's just, you never hear from them again [right] and you mentioned those first ten proposals[00:17:00] how is that coming together our people again like seeing your active video on LinkedIn or in these other communities? Or was it more like you putting yourself out there for them?

I know you reached out to Some people from the scientific scuba diving world, like you were trying to leverage connections you already had with this new skill set that you're offering. Yeah, the Opportunities channel, I imagine on those ones you're just putting your name into the hat with everyone else who sees it.

Is that how the first 10 kind of went? Like it's you putting yourself out there to them just finding these opportunities or were people reaching out to you? 

Robbie Christian: It totally was. It's funny that it was the first client that I had found me just out of the blue on the portfolio.

That's extremely rare so far. It was me just hustling, finding as many different people as I could to connect with, and anytime, I mean I had my ear to the ground, anytime that an opportunity would show up I would jump on it, I would research what the company is, what they do, I would look them up online, I would see if it was going to be a good fit[00:18:00] and again, I had sort of a, little bit of a cushion that I could be patient for a couple months in doing all of this.

And so I was still pretty picky. Those ten or so proposals, I was still really picky about who I was submitting proposals to. Sometimes opportunities would come through and I would look the company up online and all of the reviews would say, never work with this group. I was like okay, not going to touch that one.

But it was important to do that due diligence. So I didn't waste my time and waste anybody else's time going through an application process and an interview process and writing a proposal. I didn't want to do any of that if I knew that it wasn't going to be a good fit for that company. And that all comes back to knowing your brand.

What it is that you do, what you want to do, what you stand for, what you represent. That's what guided me in this method and this approach. 

Devlin Peck: Good, and I think this might be a good time to dive into that deeper. You mentioned, 'yeah, it's not worth my time'. I imagine some [00:19:00] new freelancers may be like, 'hey, if I'm getting paid, like it's worth my time'.

But you... I think there's this concept where it's like you can still be growing your business and growing your brand and like your brand equity, so to speak. You can still be creating value for your business without working on client projects directly. Like that time you're spending like in the community.

I know I've seen you go on podcasts, like what you're doing here. If you're bogged down in like lower value client work, maybe there's a toxic situation going on, maybe it's not. Maybe it's just like, you know, you're working 40 hours a week on the client work. You don't have as much time to update your portfolio website, or go on podcasts, or network with people on LinkedIn, or attend these live events to grow your skills.

And all of that stuff you're doing, whether it's getting your name out there, working on your professional development, that's an investment in your business that will pay off down the line too. So it's almost like, 'my time is valuable to a certain degree. If the opportunity isn't valuable enough, my time would be better spent working on my business, growing my brand, networking, helping the [00:20:00] community'.

It seems like that's the approach you were taking. That's the approach that I figured out pretty early on too. I'm like, it's worrying when you don't have these like high value clients coming in and you don't know when the next one's coming, but it's like, you just trust doing the right things, create the content, support the community,

work on my skills, and it's going to happen. It's going to happen for me. 

Robbie Christian: Because it's a total matter of opportunity cost. [Yeah, exactly.] Because if you're taking those low hanging fruits for a really low cost, a low revenue, you're losing out on all of those other things that you're talking about that are investing in your future.

So yes, you get the immediate payoff of a small paycheck, which in some cases you really do need, let's be clear that there is a place and a time for those. And absolutely, If that's the position you're in then pursue anything that you can.

But if you're able to be judicious and be patient with some of these things you're taking an opportunity cost. You measure, you weigh the opportunity cost [00:21:00] of taking those projects versus. Investing in your company and investing in your business, investing in your brand, building yourself and finding better opportunities out there.

They're going to be a better fit for you personally. 

Devlin Peck: Yeah, and I like that you acknowledge that. Yeah, like you do need to be privileged to some degree to be able to take these risks. You do need to have some kind of emergency fund or safety net to just say, I'm going to be really picky, only take the ones that are high paying and a perfect fit.

Like you said, sometimes you will need to take whatever you can get. That was me when I was finishing up, when I was a master's student, I'm like, hey, anything's better than like this 15 dollar an hour, here with Apple or 20 bucks an hour, whatever it was. I'm like, this industry pays a lot better. So I'm taking anything I can get, whatever the project is.

And then first year, pretty rough, had some really bad experiences. And I'm like, okay, I built up a little bit of a safety net. I need to be way pickier going forward and price. Way better. So that's good. Good discussion. I think that's a good distinction for people to get. It's like just because you're not spending time working for a client, you can still spend that [00:22:00] time growing your business.

But let's continue the story here. So you landed that first client. How did you go from, okay yes, you know, getting some work on the books to three or four months later? You're like, I can't take on anymore, you're referring it out to other people, you're turning stuff down. Let's talk a bit about that because that's like, impressive.

Robbie Christian: Yeah, it was. It was totally. And I remember you and Taylor were telling me, and several other people as I was connecting with others in the industry were telling me that, yeah, you get those first couple projects and then by word of mouth, like, things just happen. And I didn't believe any of you. I didn't at all. I thought this was some wizardry magic you guys were talking about that's like just not real. And sure enough, like going through August into September, I was still, doing the hustle. I was still looking for opportunities. But by the time [00:23:00] November rolled around and eventually by the time December started, that's when I was like, okay, I am not reaching out to anybody else.

I am not following any more opportunities. I was muting the opportunities channel. I was going dark on LinkedIn. Because I had so much work that I just, I couldn't even keep up with it all. And one thing really. did lead to another. And in particular, there was a company that really liked the work that I was doing.

And so they said, we have another project for you. And then here I am in another project that goes until June now. It's the biggest project I've ever done. And it's really exciting. And I like working with that company in that group and the more good work that I do, the more responsibility that I'm given.

And it's great, but it is a little bit daunting. It's a huge leap of faith to know that yes, things will flow one into another eventually. It was frustrating in the moment because it wasn't immediately happening, [00:24:00] but looking back on it, it was it worked out just like you said that it would. I just, I was lacking a little bit of that faith. 

Devlin Peck: But I can relate to that completely, just like the doubt, it's I'm doing all the right things, but is this really going to work out? Can I actually make a living doing this? Working remotely and having the flexibility and all of that like, seems too good to be true.

Can that actually be reality for me? Like I, remember going through those same doubts when I was building it and then after it's done, it's like, why did I doubt myself so much? Like it kind of worked out. We put in all the hours, of course it would. Yeah. Not that, it always does work out, but. [Yeah.] But you definitely.... 

Robbie Christian: And then some of us here in the audience, like coming from full time positions, like leaving, walking away from a perfectly good job that's paying fine. And it's paying the bills, and you know you're engaged, and to walk away from that and take this leap of faith, it's tough. It's scary. 

Devlin Peck: And you mentioned this a little when we were chatting before. But maybe we should acknowledge it, that freelancing isn't for everybody. [00:25:00] [Correct.] And maybe this leads us into our next question too. Obviously you had that hustle. Like, every day I talk to you, you're like, oh yeah, I reached out to like, this connection from four years ago.

Like, I know they needed a program. And the next day you're like, I found out about a lead through this channel. Like, I reached out to them. So and so's brother in law reached out to me'. You had, you were like, working on a lot of fronts. It was basically like, this is going to happen. You're going to make this work out. Obviously, you know, you have some flexibility, like you can choose which projects you work on. I don't know, I think people generally know the positives of freelancing, mostly the freedom and the ceilings are higher, like you can earn more, but what about the challenges, like what are some of the challenges of freelancing? Who may it not be good for?

Yeah, we talked about that doubt that may be in the back of your head when you're getting started. It's not sure, so to speak but... 

Robbie Christian: So starting out, to begin with, not everybody goes this route, but I strongly recommend that if you are going to be doing a freelance business, then [00:26:00] you create a business. And so I created an LLC and that is the company that I operate under. And it's a lot more protection. There are a lot of reasons I could go on and on about why to do an LLC and why to have a company, but that's not necessarily the time and place right now.

But if you are considering it, look into that. So there are a lot of things from the business side of things. And like I said, I got a degree, a master's from the business school here in Miami. And I ended up needing to pull some of those strings of the contacts that I had to help me through some of that process of what it actually looks like. In the program, we talked about sort of the big picture things, how to lead a company, how to lead through change, how to lead a team, like doing all of these different things. But I didn't have the class of what it actually takes to start an LLC in Florida and go from there. And so, there was a little bit of a learning curve to creating that [00:27:00] business.

But then once that's done, we've already talked a little bit about how hard it is to find those opportunities. And as a freelancer, I know that we just talked about how things magically flow from one opportunity into the next. But there is in the back of your mind, there is always the possibility that, okay what if it doesn't?

What if I finish up this project and I haven't found another project to do? Who else do I need to reach out to? What if somebody doesn't need this course? What if this opportunity fell through, like we were signing the paperwork and then, oh, they lost all of their funding.

Now I'm back at square one. So there are a lot of challenges on that front. And then once you get past all of that and you're working, there's no team that you have. And I know I'm sort of generalizing full time work versus freelancing, but I feel like in general, if you're working with a company, or for a company, you sort of have a team [00:28:00] that's there that you can fall back on and say, hey, my kid is sick this week. I got to stay at home. Can you help me out with some of these things? That doesn't happen. Like you, you are the one and only person in your freelancing business when you are operating alone. I'm hoping, like you, to start growing my business and have a team like that. But that doesn't happen right out of the gate.

At least for me. Maybe for some people it does. But for me, that wasn't the way that I I wanted to do it. You are totally on your own. And yes, you do have all of the flexibility in the world, but you still have deadlines. And you still have to meet those deadlines, and the client doesn't care if you took 10 days off, or if you were sick, or if you went on vacation. That's great, as long as they get their product at the end, that's really all that matters.

But you have to get that product to them in the end. You don't have complete freedom to just go two months to Fiji and [00:29:00] not think about anything. You can't do that. That sounds great. That's not what I'm planning on doing. And then I think the last serious challenge would be the pricing.

Y[eah, that's tough.] Yeah, as a freelancer, we could have a whole hour long session about the pricing. As a freelancer, you price everything out. If you as a freelancer opt to go the hourly rate, then it's pretty straightforward. You tell the clients, this is my hourly rate. You agree on that, you sign the contract, you do the work, great, you're done.

I do things much more challenging, the harder road. But I think there's a much better payoff. So I do all of my projects by project-based pricing. And there are a number of reasons that I do that. Sort of in a nutshell, because I think it's a lot of transparency right up front. The client knows exactly what they're going to pay for the project.

I know exactly what I'm going to get by the end. It might take me a little bit longer than I anticipated. That's too [00:30:00] bad. It might take me less time than I anticipated. And great, then I win out a little bit. But it allows me to very clearly state the scope of the project and what it is that I'm doing and what they're gonna get at the end of it.

And I think that's a really important time for you to come together with the client and really understand what it is that you're doing and agree on the price and then move from there. But figuring out pricing is... I don't know if anybody really has like the silver bullet to, this is exactly how to do it always. I think it's an art and a science both. 

Devlin Peck: Yeah, that's what I always say. It's art and a science. There's no one right answer to it. People would like a session on pricing. Heard. We should make that happen because yeah, that is such a challenge. Like I'll never forget my first client. They're like, 'yeah, how much? Tell me the price it would take for you to do this'. And I'm like, asking my professors and stuff. I'm like, oh, yeah, what's the budget? I'm like [00:31:00] trying to put it back on her and she's like just not having it. So it was days of like anxiety. I'm like, is it going to be too high too low? Because yeah, they wanted a fixed price. Fast forward a couple of years fixed pricing, it's like the best thing that's ever happened. It's like we can set a price that it disconnects y our time from income that you're earning So yeah, you might spend a little bit of time, you might be able to hire out an entire team and still make profit.

We could do a session on that, like a Q&A on that. I think that would help people. Some people are like, can you do a session on how to like price out a project? And I'm like, I at least didn't really do it that way. I'm like, I charge this much for the last one, I can charge this much for the next one.

Or like, I want to be able to have this much time to work on content for the community that at the time wasn't creating any income for me. I need the client projects I'm working on to pay for all of that as well. I need that profit so I can have that buffer to work on stuff for the community and keep building the brand and grow the business, not just like be stuck in the client work doing the client work. 

Robbie Christian: I couldn't agree more, and that's that [00:32:00] bigger picture sort of business mentality to have is, what is it worth it to me to do this project? Like here's the general timeline, like how much do I need to earn in that general timeline to sustain the business and keep things going? And as long as I can come up with a number to sustain all of that, that's the number I give.

Maybe somebody else is going to be different, but that's what it's worth to me. 

Devlin Peck: Yeah, exactly. And yeah in the meantime, since I see a lot of people are curious about pricing, again, hourly - easy place to start. That's where I wound up starting, but project pricing can really help you grow your business.

In the meantime, there is content that usually helps some things click for people by someone named Chris Do. So it's on the future. The name of the video, I think, is Pricing Design Work and Creativity. And if that will help you get some basics of like profit and just like the general, like how to price your project so your business can grow.

So that would be a good YouTube video to watch in the meantime. [00:33:00] [He's so good.] Very cool. Yeah. So if you're starting a business and you want to price accordingly and grow it, yeah, that's a good channel. That's helped me have some nice breakthroughs when it comes to pricing so check that out in the meantime I feel like if I did a session on it, I'd probably be repeating a lot of what I've learned from Chris Do, so that's worked for me so far, but we have about 20 minutes left. So let's dive into some questions. I see we've had some really good ones coming in. So I have a question here from Mayuko, which is most upvoted. When you were first starting out, what were your non-negotiables when taking on new clients, and what are those non-negotiables now?

Robbie Christian: Shoot, that's a really good question. 

Devlin Peck: There are red flags for sure that I see, but I'll always investigate them further, discuss them further. And then, hourly rates to me, if they won't do project pricing, to me that's a red flag. I don't know, it might be controversial, I don't know, but it's a red flag to me.

Robbie Christian: I don't know if I'm gonna answer the question in the best way, but from my experience, I think in [00:34:00] researching the company, and in coming up with a really clear scope and having a good initial conversation with the the people who I'm doing the work with, whether I'm subcontracting or I'm doing the work directly for the client, as long as there's open communication and I've looked into the company and it's a reputable business and a good operation, I haven't really run into a situation where something has come up where I need to consider it as a non negotiable or not. I don't know if that answers your question, but I think that's about the closest that I can get. 

Devlin Peck: Yeah, and Marie had a suggestion, like maybe like the type of content. Marie, I've seen some people do that, like Cath Ellis, it's like certain industries like oil and gas and certain organizations, like Cath Ellisis like, I don't want to work with those organizations. So some hunting projects, some people might not do those. Those will be non-negotiables. But that is a good question. Yeah I can't think of a better answer off the top of my head, either.

I'm sure it [00:35:00] will come to us later, and it's like, oh, we could have had a good response for that, but... Sorry Mayuko, that is a good question though. I think what it comes down to is, yeah, making sure the contract clearly captures like the agreement so far, no like surprise contracts with extra things thrown in. People have tried that. That's where I see a lot of newer freelancers get burned, is it's. You'll talk to someone, they'll be like super nice and charismatic and like, yeah, here's what it's going to be, and then the contract will either be like really vague or will include things that weren't discussed, like those are red flags too.

I could do a whole session on my first year of freelancing and the hard lessons learned from that. Oh yeah. Let's check the next question since we don't have a great response to that one. What strategies do you use to find opportunities? So I know we got into that a little bit, but maybe if you wanted to like bullet list them.

Robbie Christian: Yeah, connecting with people. So on a live event, just like this, you can look through the participant list, find people on LinkedIn, [00:36:00] and when you connect with them, send a message. Instead of just saying, yes, connect with, this list of 100 people, send people a message. And comment on something that you thought was cool during that session, make it relevant.

So that's a really good way to grow your network. And then from that network, you never know when somebody else is going to turn back around and say, hey, you know what, I have an opportunity for you. One is grow the network, two is be active on LinkedIn. Make sure your portfolio is up to speed and active and out there. I don't think any of the jobs that I have would have hired me without a portfolio. I can't speak for sure, but I'm pretty confident about that.

And then just staying in the community, because there were a couple times where somebody messaged me that I had been talking to and talking to. And then out of the blue, they're - not out of the blue, like the next conversation, they're like, oh by the way, I just got this opportunity that came through.

 Do you want to look into [00:37:00] this before I post it out to the rest of the group? And so having those connections is really nice. 

Devlin Peck: Yeah, I mean, people hear that a lot and say that a lot, but it's like we can't really understate the importance of that. It's not just, oh yeah, go on LinkedIn, make connections, like network, it's like vague.

But when you are getting your story out there and genuinely connecting with people, then it's in their mind, it's like filed away. It's like, okay, Robbie is a freelancing resource. Robbie is a freelance eLearning designer. Okay, good. Two weeks later, two days later, two months later, oh, we need some freelance support.

Oh, Robbie's great. He's really friendly, makes me feel good. He's competent. I've seen his portfolio. Let's reach out to Robbie and see if he's available. Like that will happen. And it can be frustrating in the beginning, because if you're going out there like, I'm gonna connect with people and like land three projects this week, you're setting yourself up for disappointment. That's not the way to go about it .But Robbie's approach is the perfect long term approach to growing a sustainable business and brand for yourself. It's like he's helping people without expectation of anything in return. He's getting his story out there like he is now. We all know Robbie's a [00:38:00] freelancer. So that is powerful. Yeah, just getting your story out there, getting to know people as they get to know you, they'll know what your goals are, you help each other achieve your goals. So thinking about it two-way like that, like, how can I help this person?

They're thinking, how can I help you? That's why this community is so effective. And I know a handful of opportunities have come your way from that, Robbie. People reach out to me, oh, do you know any freelancers? You were the first name on my mind when you were getting your business started.

I'm like, I know Robbie can do this. Every opportunity coming my way, I'm like, sending to Robbie. 

Robbie Christian: And I've done the same for a handful of other people in the Slack community. Exactly.] It definitely goes around. 

Devlin Peck: Question from Pedro. Yeah, this is the tough part. What's the hardest part about getting to landing your first client?

And again, we've touched on some of these. I'll keep an eye on the chat too to see if there are any deeper questions related to this, but hardest part about getting to landing your first client? Yeah, you touched on the doubt. Seem to be tough about that being patient about it. Because yeah, you can be doing all the right things like we're saying, but it's okay, when is the client [00:39:00] actually going to come my way?

When am I going to get that email that's going to materialize and assign contracts? Like that was always a tough part for me. It's like, doing the right things or like, I'm working on these projects that are really profitable right now. Is the next one going to be there when this one is done? And somehow, like you said, it always like magically works out, even though you're like constantly like hustling.

Yeah, there is always that doubt. Yeah, so that's something else that might be interesting to talk about, which I like tease, is the more stable part. Because I've heard that concept. And I like that about how freelancing can be like more stable than full time work. Just because of like diversified income stream, so I don't know what if you have thoughts about that or how you feel about that. Yeah, do you feel less secure then when you're holding a full time role? 

Robbie Christian: I can see how I might feel less secure, but once I started getting those projects rolling in that really did build up, I do feel really good about it. And I think the stability is all individually [00:40:00] based.

If I'm willing to go out there and really fill up my schedule and have what some people consider a really stable full schedule, then yeah I'm able to do that as a freelancer. But at the same time, if I want to work 30 hours a week and still make what I did in my old job, like I can do that too. So it's really like you're driving your own bus. 

Devlin Peck: Yeah, it's good to have those options. Yeah, because even on those times where I'm like, when's the next big client going to come, it was still like plenty of leads where it's if I were to take on maybe something that's not the exact price point I want, I would still be able to pay the bills, keep the lights on. I could still stay busy.

So good point. Yeah. And that's something I always try to keep in perspective. I'm like, I'm stressing myself out so much, like there's still leads coming in, just not for the exact projects or exact price points I'm looking for. We have a question from Marie about an hour of content creation equals how many ID hours in your estimation? [00:41:00] That is always such a tough question. I don't think there's like a easy answer for that. 

Robbie Christian: I always try to stay away from this question because it's so variable. Right now I'm working on a project that is I don't know, probably 60 or 70 hours to create an hour of actual seat time. And then other times I've been able to crank out a course in like a single week that is hours and hours long.

And so I'm sorry, Marie, for not having a good answer for you. But I just really don't have - I think that's the question that all of us wish there was an answer to. There are resources out there that study this and you can find research, you can find everything online. And I've looked into that.

And I just came away frustrated because everything is so dependent on the project and on your role within the project as well. Yeah. 

Devlin Peck: Yeah, so many factors that can play into it. How available are the subject matter experts? How complex is the content? How complex is the development? Or yeah, the final [00:42:00] product roadblocks can come up. That's where fixed pricing is like pretty nice because you price it so that even if like everything goes wrong, like you're still profiting basically. So then when something does go wrong, you're not like grumbling about it. It's oh yeah, happy to fix it. Like I'm getting compensated for my time. We're still going to come out ahead. But that's why it can be tough doing that in the beginning unless you are like really overshooting, and Robbie's like I'm going to start really high to make sure I don't lose and I'll slowly work my way down. But in the beginning it can be tough to get a sense of like how long it will take you to complete a project.

And so the project pricing approach is, price it so that you'll be happy whether everything goes perfect or everything goes like bad. And you still build in protections in the contract like review cycles and very clearly outlining the deliverables. I think project pricing relies on those pieces pretty heavily.

If you don't identify the deliverables well, that could be a recipe for disaster. It's like, oh yeah well, I thought it was 10k for like all of this. And you're thinking it's like something small. That could go bad fast. 

Robbie Christian: Year one [00:43:00] with Devlin Peck. 

Devlin Peck: Yeah, year one. We have about eight minutes left. We have this question from Polly, which is relevant, which I saw just make its way to the top pretty quickly.

What needs to be in a proposal? So this is interesting. This is relevant to what we're talking about. So do you want to take a go at that? 

Robbie Christian: How about you start out? Cause I actually asked you the same question many months ago when I was doing my first proposal. 

Devlin Peck: I remember and I sent you my proposal.

Robbie Christian: So yeah, I used one of yours. So you start out with this one. 

Devlin Peck: And I modeled my proposal, the proposal I sent you, based off of a proposal that I got from Cath Ellis. So again, the community is just helping each other, we're all paying it forward. Yeah, I used Cath Ellis's approach. And I don't think, I didn't like talk to a lawyer about this, but my proposal was like a combined kind of contract.

So it would list like some terms about like intellectual property and things like that. It would very clearly outline the scope and price. So the scope would be like, you're getting a 10 question scenario based eLearning experience with [00:44:00] static images, Storyline default animations. It's just very clearly outlining what the project will include, but then also saying what it will not include.

It will not include custom animations from outside of Storyline. It will not include sound effects. It will not include narration. So outlining the scope isn't just like, this is what the project is, it's also, this is what the project is not. Okay? And then of course, if there are any scope changes, we'll discuss based on price.

For me, a really important one was review cycle. After I got that figured out, so I'll say, this project will be in three phases. A text based storyboard, an interactive prototype, and the final product. And then I say, once one of these phases is approved by all the stakeholders, any changes to that deliverable past that point will incur additional fees.

So once the storyboard's approved, we move into the interactive prototype. If they say at that point, hey, let's like change out this question. We need to add a new question here. It's, that'll be an extra like 1,500 or 2,500 dollars, because now I need to go back and change that piece and we already signed off on it.

And I [00:45:00] say, changes will be made at my discretion but may incur additional fees. They're like, let's change this sentence. I'm not going to be like, 300 bucks. But it's just a way to protect you as the freelancer where if the client does start making unreasonable requests that are going to require a lot of rework from you, you have that proposal which they sign, to fall back on.

So those are the two most important things for me. And then there are pieces like, how you're getting paid. So I got to a point where it was like 50 percent upfront before we even touched the project, and then 50 percent before we send over the final files. And it didn't start like this.

Like when you're like a subcontractor, you don't really have a lot of leverage. So it's, you'll get paid on a net 30. You'll get paid basically two months after you actually do the work. But that was the place I arrived at with the pricing, and then portfolio rights too. So that became important too.

It's, you're basically giving permission for me to write up this process for my portfolio, to show your logo on my website, and to show screenshots from the project on my website. And then if clients push back on that, I'm like, that's going to [00:46:00] raise the price by between 30 and 50 percent because part of the value in doing this project is the business that it will help me drum up down the line.

So those are like the main points that I arrived at. Again, when I started off, I was just signing whatever contract came my way, not having a good time along the way in certain situations. So this is all learned the hard way.

That's what I include in a proposal. Any follow up on that Robbie or any follow up questions about that? 

Robbie Christian: My initial proposals were like two pages long and really formal, and using all these graphic design principles to make sure everything looks really neat and professional and submitted them, and now I've gotten to the point, just like Devlin told me I would, where it's like in an email.

Hey, here's yeah, here's how much I'll do for that, because I've built up the rapport with people. And so once you build that relationship, then you're a lot more willing to just casually do something like that in email. The only other thing that I will [00:47:00] add to what Devlin said is that I'll typically do two different options.

You have like option one for people who don't really exactly know what it is they're looking for. Option one will be what I think is the right fit and the right budget for them. And then option two will be, hey if you want to pay me a whole bunch more, then like this is what you're gonna get for it. And show them the possibility of what they could have. And you don't normally want to do, like option three is like, here, if you don't want to pay me hardly anything then here, I'll throw this together and I don't think it'll work. Like you don't really want to go down, but you show them what you think is the right fit.

You show them something that's higher and what they're going to get for paying that price. And the reason that you do that is it opens up a conversation of oh, so I guess some of this is negotiable. Let's talk and see if I can take some of those elements from option two. Pull them into option one and adjust the price [00:48:00] a little bit. Can we meet in the middle somewhere? 

Devlin Peck: Yeah. And you made a great point too about the conversation. None of this stuff in the proposal should be a surprise. If these are surprises to your client, like those are red flags too. So I discuss those things on a discovery call or in early communication.

If I use this on my portfolio, do we have any issues with that? This is my pricing structure. We good there? Let's iron out the scope. Is this what we had in mind? Okay, I'll put that in the proposal. And I see Liz Dowers, client relationship building and maintenance could be a session in itself.

It could, and Liz, you've shared some really helpful stuff. I'm always like, oh, I should chime in here. And I see Liz like saying the same thing I would say, but better. And I'm like, Liz, let's talk. Maybe we can do a session together. 

But, and I see a lot of you, you know, I know a lot of you are active and helpful in the slack, but good to see you Liz. And yeah, it looks like we're getting to the top of the hour. Good stuff about the options, too. Yeah, I've seen that recommended. I know I've done that in the past as well.

There was a follow up question about how much of the work you outsource. And I know we have a couple minutes. I know you're at the [00:49:00] precipice of that. Like you can see how it would benefit your business, but I don't think you've made that leap yet. 

Robbie Christian: So yeah, I'm hoping that within the next 12 months I'm really going to get to a point where I'm hiring out some contractors to do some of the work that I'm working on. 

Devlin Peck: So that'll be a new chapter. Maybe we do another session with Robbie next year or something where we talk about how we started working with subcontractors and growing things even further. Because that seems like where you'll get fairly soon.

 Yeah, we'll see how it goes. Thank you all for hanging out here with us. 

Feel free to connect with Robbie on LinkedIn. Robbie's helping all over the ID community. Alright, thank you Robbie. We appreciate your time as always. 

Robbie Christian: And thank you Devlin for the entire community that you've built and for hosting the different sessions that you do. Thanks for putting it all together. 

Devlin Peck: Thank you everybody. See you soon Robbie. See you soon everyone. Bye bye. 

Robbie Christian: Bye.