47. What is a DUTCH Hormone Test and Do You Need One? with Dr. Erin
Dec 19, 2023Episode 47
Wendy Kathryn
One of the most important teats that I took when I decided I wanted to heal was Hashimotos was a DUTCH test. What is a DUTCH test and how is it different that the labs your doctor runs?
I brought my friend, and first repeat guest onto the podcast this week to answer that exact question! Dr. Erin is a chiropractor and holistic hormone wellness coach and is giving you all the details about the DUTCH test.
This isn't your average hormone test, but an extensive tool that provides a comprehensive view of hormone levels. We uncover its unique way of using both urine and saliva to assess the adrenal glands and the HPA axis, offering results that conventional blood work might miss.
For so many women, medical gaslighting is not out of the ordinary and being written off is the norm. The DUTCH Test allows women to map out their hormonal cycle and help identify the root cause of imbalances.
We're getting into the finer details like "how much does The DUTCH Test actually cost?" and "how do we make sure we're administering the test effectively?" So whether you've been told that debilitating periods or chronic fatigue are "normal," this episode is for you. The symptoms that are common in our society should not be normalized.
One of the most important teats that I took when I decided I wanted to heal was Hashimotos was a DUTCH test. What is a DUTCH test and how is it different that the labs your doctor runs?
I brought my friend, and first repeat guest onto the podcast this week to answer that exact question! Dr. Erin is a chiropractor and holistic hormone wellness coach and is giving you all the details about the DUTCH test.
This isn't your average hormone test, but an extensive tool that provides a comprehensive view of hormone levels. We uncover its unique way of using both urine and saliva to assess the adrenal glands and the HPA axis, offering results that conventional blood work might miss.
For so many women, medical gaslighting is not out of the ordinary and being written off is the norm. The DUTCH Test allows women to map out their hormonal cycle and help identify the root cause of imbalances.
We're getting into the finer details like "how much does The DUTCH Test actually cost?" and "how do we make sure we're administering the test effectively?" So whether you've been told that debilitating periods or chronic fatigue are "normal," this episode is for you. The symptoms that are common in our society should not be normalized.
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Speaker 1:
Does this sound like you? You have symptoms that you know aren't normal. Maybe you're exhausted all the time, or you have an irregular or painful period, maybe your hair is thinning or you're having problems conceiving, or maybe you're just doing all the right things eating well and working out but you can't seem to lose weight. But your doctor tells you that all your blood work looks normal and there's nothing wrong with you, but deep down you know something's wrong. That was me many years ago. I was on a mission to heal my Hashimoto's and I knew, in order to do that, I had to know what underlying issues were causing it, and I was able to get the answers I needed using a Dutch test. What is a Dutch test and how is it different than the blood work your doctor's running for you? Today I have Dr Erin on the podcast answering that exact question. She works with women to pinpoint their hormonal imbalances, cortisol levels, nutrient deficiencies and more, to get to the root cause of what's really causing their symptoms. She explains exactly what makes the Dutch test a better way for women to test their hormones, what makes it different and how it's helped the women in her practice.
Speaker 1:
You're listening to the Detoxed Alomah podcast, where clean living meets real life. We help you toss the toxins out of your life and embrace real, lasting, holistic health. My name is Wendy and I'm an environmental toxins attorney turned clean living coach, and since 2015, I've helped over 700 families clean up the toxins in their home. My mission is simple to show you how to create a toxin free-ish home that you actually love and also fits into your real, crazy, busy life. If you're ready to dive in and learn more about the Dutch test and whether or not you may need it, then stick around, let's dive in. Welcome back to the podcast. Dr Aaron is here and you are my very first return guest ever. Your previous episode, when you were on and we were talking about healing your hormones naturally, that's episode 20. So when you're done listening to this, go ahead and go back and listen to episode 20 is one of my most listened to episodes, so welcome back, aaron.
Speaker 2:
Thank you. It's so good to be here and that is just so wild to me. So glad to be here. Like I said, or you said, I'm Dr Aaron.
Speaker 2:
I am a chiropractor and a holistic hormone wellness coach, so I work with a lot of women through a lot of different things when it comes to their hormones, fertility challenges, pcos, endometriosis, you name it. I have probably seen it and I really got into this realm of work. It really started because I was having some health issues in college and that led me to understand how under advocated for that women really are within this system and that drove me towards more natural healing. And I got into her practice school and that's what I really learned how undereducated women are about their bodies and how they actually work and myself included, I was not privy to that information growing up. So going into college, I became more of a free thinker, I guess, or a more educated consumer. Yeah, I like that.
Speaker 2:
Yes, and I made the decision to go off hormonal birth control because it just didn't feel right. I was someone who was diagnosed with endometriosis, essentially the second. They started their cycle just based on symptoms and family history, and I know I dove into that a little bit more in the last podcast episode that I was on, thank you. Essentially, it just led me down this rabbit hole and I ended up having to be the one to do a lot of the research in terms of what should we do? How does our body work? How was everything connected? How does our lifestyle play a factor? I didn't even know. I was the person in college eating sheets at 2 am after going out you and every other college student out there.
Speaker 2:
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 1:
Except I lived on the West Coast and we would go for tacos. We don't have cheese, so it was whatever the Mexican joint that was open 24-7,. That was what we were doing.
Speaker 2:
Honestly, that would have been a really bad thing for me to have access to, so I'm glad I don't have access to that. It took me down a rabbit hole and I really started to dive into all of the research and figuring out what I should be doing for myself, because when I got off of hormonal birth control after having a lot of symptoms that nobody really had answers for and eventually I found one person who was willing to run one test on me that gave me all of the answers that I needed, which is the test that we're going to be talking about today and the one that I have brought into my practice but I was diagnosed with autoimmune progesterone dermatitis and from there it has been quite the journey. It's a pretty rare and not a lot of people even knew what to do with it, so it has led me to working with now hundreds of women on helping them on their hormone health journeys and helping them cultivate a life that truly helps them and serves their foundation of their hormones in really any stage of life.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, and I feel like this should be the standard of care I mean over the years me dealing with thyroid doctors and neuroconologists who wouldn't even run a full thyroid panel, let alone have a conversation with me about hormone balance. I know yours was the opposite. I had estrogen dominance. The reason why I finally found out that I was estrogen dominant was because I did a Dutch test, and so the Dutch test is what we're here to talk about today. I think it's funny because I clearly follow a lot of wellness accounts and holistic healing accounts and naturopathic doctors and people talk a lot about Dutch tests and then I feel like there's a whole audience out there of people who are just at the beginning stages of trying to figure out their root causes and why they're sick. The medical system has been failing them for long enough that they're seeking out answers, they're seeking out more holistic care and they're hearing this thrown around like a Dutch test, and then they're coming to me and my DMs and saying what the f**k is a Dutch test? And so I think that you know when those of us that are in this industry we use a lot of words and we say a lot of things but people who are brand new to this way of thinking. They don't know.
Speaker 1:
So I thought it would be great to bring you back on the podcast to talk about the Dutch test. What is it? Why do we use it? Why is it better? What can it tell us? That's different than a typical conventional blood serum test, because there's a lot of differences, and I know that you use this test in your practice with your clients as they're working through hormonal imbalances, and I don't think that I knew you had endometriosis.
Speaker 1:
I actually just read a really cool not cool, it's definitely not cool A study that an interesting, a very interesting study that shows a direct causal link between the amount of phthalates, the phthalate metabolites that are in a woman's urine, and whether or not she has endometriosis. Like a direct causal link. So again, you know, get rid of the underconductors out of your life. We're not going to talk about that today. Go listen to episode 20 with Dr Aaron, the balancing hormones. Naturally, we like go super in depth on all of that, but today she's going to talk about the Dutch test, so why don't you go ahead? What is the Dutch test?
Speaker 2:
So the Dutch test actually stands for dried urine, test for comprehensive hormones. When I even said that to my husband, he's like, wow, I didn't even know that. I'm like you live with me and I talk about this test on stop.
Speaker 1:
See, he didn't even know. I bet you, if you asked him, he wouldn't know what it tells you either.
Speaker 2:
No, he definitely wouldn't. He just says, sure, I'll take it whatever, because men can take it too. But Dutch testing is really unique and really cool because it kind of helps go a little bit deeper in identifying some of the hormonal imbalances that could be happening. It essentially helps us get more of a complete picture of the patient's hormone levels that are right in front of us and again, those are things that we typically cannot see in serum or blood testing, as well as saliva alone.
Speaker 2:
I think the really beautiful thing about Dutch is it looks at the metabolite levels of hormones. So, yes, we get a comprehensive look at all of the major hormones, and those hormones are the ones that we think of when it comes to hormones. So estrogen, progesterone, testosterone yes, testosterone is very important in women as well but it also looks at the metabolite levels of those hormones, basically metabolites. Hormones don't really dissolve well in water, so they can't pass directly into the urine themselves. They kind of need to be broken down in the liver and kidneys to form these smaller, more water soluble particles so we can actually see them in the urine. So when I say metabolite, it's just the broken down forms, and I think that gets confusing for people too, because they're like what the heck?
Speaker 1:
is a metabolite.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, yes, exactly. And the other really cool thing about the Dutch test is we actually get to take a look at the adrenal glands and I'm a chiropractor so obviously I'm also obsessed with the nervous system and the HPA access and your internal stress response. That's kind of the big thing that I really focus on and love to look at. And the Dutch test, the adrenal testing that they do, combines urine and saliva, which gives you a more comprehensive panel, and you can actually see the pattern of your cortisol throughout an entire day span. Just super helpful if you are working with someone or are someone who has any kind of HPA access dysfunction, so any kind of sleep issues, stress issues, blood sugar imbalances, all of that good stuff.
Speaker 1:
So it's a really freaking comprehensive test. For years I read online, I did a ton of research. I knew being estrogen dominant is a thing and I would always ask my doctor like, hey, can we do a blood test? They were not open to Dutch tests at the time. I was still using insurance and I still wasn't in a place in my life yet where I was branching out on my own and willing to pay out a pocket for better, more comprehensive care, which I should have done a long time ago. But not everyone is in a position to do that. I found online that you could do a serum test If you did it at a very specific time in your cycle. It has to be in a specific time I think it's like day 21 or whatever day it is and then there's like a mathematical equation that you can do, based on that blood test, to figure out your estrogen to progesterone ratio. But it's not as accurate if you do it on a blood serum test than it is on a Dutch test. Why is that? It's?
Speaker 2:
really, because our cycle is ever changing too right. If you are not someone who knows exactly the second that you're ovulating, that can kind of cause some issues. Or if you're not ovulating, so if we don't even know when you're ovulating to create that progesterone spike, if you do a serum blood it's going to be the same. You're not going to see it. So for the Dutch test, we like to do it between days like 18 and 22. That's, generally speaking, when you are going to ovulate and you're going to see that, or you should see that spike in progesterone. So that way we can really see is estrogen kind of fall in it and still rising? Is progesterone not rising at all? What is really going on that?
Speaker 2:
So we have a little bit more flexibility in that window, which makes it a lot easier for patients who are really struggling with this and are trying to get answers. Because there have been plenty of times when I have women go and do serum testing at the different points throughout their cycle and they're like my doctor told me to do it at this point. So we're going to do it and they look wildly different compared to the Dutch test just because we had a little more flexibility and a little more time to work with them through it. Oh it's so interesting.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, I actually did that mathematical calculation a couple of times and I was fine, and then when I had a Dutch test, I was not fine. So I know firsthand, from trying to figure it out and do it from a blood serum, that it didn't show what was actually happening in my body. But once I finally did the Dutch test, I mean it's really interesting how you kind of lay it all out there. I feel like anybody who obviously has a period, or any female, I feel like this should be a standard of care, like when you first start going to see a gynecologist. When you're a young female, you're going to get your pap smear and you should also get a Dutch test because it tells you so much, like you said, about your cycle and the way your hormones go up and down and is it doing what it's supposed to. It's really interesting. I also think that doctors are so resistant Like I don't think I've ever met a traditional Western medicine doctor who even does it.
Speaker 2:
I don't think I can get away in there either because I don't really know. And it is crazy because they have multiple versions of the test right. So, depending on what is going on with the person, you could literally do it, which I this is the one that I personally did was you can track it through the entire month. And there's one that's shorter, that is just four different urine samples so you can kind of get an idea. And then there's the one that also has the saliva sample so you can really go in if you suspect there's HPA axis dysfunction or something going on with the adrenal glands.
Speaker 2:
And it is really crappy that it is not covered by insurance because a lot of people don't want to pay out of pocket for this or don't have the ability to. But truthfully, all of the markers on the Dutch test are collectively all well worth over $1,000 if you look at traditional medical billing and lab pricing. So you're getting actually a lot more bang for your buck when you're doing this, and I always like to say it's one of the most beautiful things for women because we get to run this test basically one time and we get so much information from just this one test. It's very rarely that I run, you know, have to run extra tests on people or have them go out and get serum to double-check, or maybe we should do saliva. Everything is right in there that we need and then the plan of action. From there it gets to be really easy and fun for them.
Speaker 1:
What is the Dutch test start at, cost-wise, just to give everyone an idea.
Speaker 2:
So the Dutch complete, which is kind of the most standard one, and this is the flagship Dutch test. It still gives you a ton of information, and this is one that I do quite often with women, especially just depending on what they have going on. But this one is roughly starting at 250 to 300. And it still gives you a ton of information. So it's not like it is not superior to the other ones.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, and I mean it gives you so much information I feel like for that price. And back when I first got it done, I was not in a place to be throwing money around. I was broke law school student and was not conducive to me just like throwing money at it. I think back then it was probably a little bit more, but it gave me what I needed to heal and I really believe that had I never figured out that I was estrogen dominant and start working towards a protocol that helped me detox that extra estrogen. As I then got diagnosed with Hashimoto's and now that I'm in remission, I don't know that I would have been able to heal and to put my Hashimoto's into remission if I didn't understand some of the like underlying issues that were happening and what to do about it.
Speaker 2:
Oh, 100%. And I was a broke chiropractic student when I took it, so I totally get that. But I was kind of at my wit's end because I just kept getting the cyclical rash on my face. My poor husband, he was with me, he was my boyfriend at the time, but he was like I don't know what to do for you, and he watched me go through all of this. And when I tell you, I was struggling really, really hard. It was very hard mentally because I wanted to show. I was still having to show up and take care of patients, even in chiropractic school, and I'm like I don't even want to show my face right now. And I just know so many other women maybe not in that particular sense, but we all kind of have those feelings and feeling like no one's going to give you the answers that you need. It's such a devastating feeling.
Speaker 1:
It's so hard and I also, you know, a lot of women come to me and say what did you do? How did you do it? I'm struggling with all of the same things and my doctor's telling me my labs look fine and to a certain extent and I won't accuse them of blatantly saying, oh, it's all in your head, although I have heard that I've heard that a lot that you're sometimes are in your head to women. But there's also this really shitty normalization of quote unquote women's problems so horrible periods that is it, pmdd that I have multiple friends Like why in the world do I have multiple friends that have this disorder? Every time they get their period they get deeply depressed. I have friends who are incapacitated during their period.
Speaker 1:
Endometriosis, people who are trying to get pregnant and have major endometriosis, pcos. I probably know 50 women I could think of up the top of my head that have PCOS. And again, because I taught, teach environmental toxins. I know a lot of this is environmental, nutritional. We know only 10% of all of this disease is genetic. So there are other, all of these other exposures at play.
Speaker 1:
But once you've been exposed and you have these issues, women go looking for answers from their doctor because they think I trust you. You're a doctor and the only option they're giving women is to go on birth control. That's it. I'm not going to say you know, birth control is evil.
Speaker 1:
I think there's reasons to go on birth control, but this isn't one of them, right? So you go on birth control to get in. It stops you from ovulating and so then it suppresses all your symptoms. So, whatever it was that caused your symptoms to begin with, whatever imbalance, whatever issue you're having, you're now ignoring it and it's going deeper and deeper. And now you can ignore it because you're not having the symptoms, so you feel better, but you've really just like put a bandaid on it and at any point when you rip that bandaid, then it's all just going to. That's an all hell breaks loose. All hell breaks loose. Most of my audiences women, and I talk to them, I hear their stories, they email me. I have the most amazing community. They're so open about their issues and it's so common and it's so heartbreaking. So you work with these women. What's kind of your experience?
Speaker 2:
It's very similar and it is heartbreaking. But every time I hear someone's story, I don't want to say I've become numb to it, because I definitely haven't, but when I hear it I'm like I feel for you so deeply. But I've also heard 15 other women tell me the same thing and it lights this fire in me and makes me so angry, because I do not blame these women. I blame a system that doesn't understand women, that ignores women, doesn't give women a chance to advocate for themselves, and when they do, oh don't, it's all. It's never good, right, it is always this I think of, like the Spiderman meme, where he's like this is kind of what I feel, like when you're you were trying to get to the root cause of an issue and you're saying, hey, I've been doing research on this and I would like to explore these options. It is just the blame game, point fingers. No, this isn't the way that we do it, this isn't how it's going to go.
Speaker 2:
And even for me personally, my story is very similar to one that you shared. Like I was put on birth control which I didn't know, shut off ovulation at the level of my brain. So how does that impact our brains in the future. How was that impacting our brains ability to talk to the rest of our body, our thyroid, our adrenals, everything? I didn't even know that that was a thing. I was on it for so long that when I got off, my brain got confused and that's why I had such a horrible reaction to my own progesterone. My body just started overproducing because it was used to the synthetic hormone for so so long I have worked with some women who also have autoimmune progesterone dermatitis, and there are some women who suspect that they have it, but you're never going to really know what those levels are and if you do, until you actually invest in this testing, which is just kind of unfortunate, because I think that this needs to be more accessible and something that is brought to the forefront as soon as a woman says I'm having this symptom, I'm having PMZD, I'm having extreme cramping.
Speaker 2:
I see women who say that they are literally debilitated and can't get out of bed when they start their cycle, but they're told it's normal. It might be common, it's just a woman. Yeah, it might be common, but it's not normally, not normal.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, my opinion, my perspective is all these symptoms is like it's our alarm system. Your body is like hello. Every symptom you have is your body triggering an alarm that goes off. That's saying something is wrong. Please pay attention to me. Something is wrong. And the answer is not to turn off the alarm, right, like if your house was on fire. Would you just be like, well, hold on, let me go, turn off this annoying alarm? No, you would fight the fire.
Speaker 1:
And it's also fascinating to me that I had a whole host of other symptoms, so tinny versus color. Every summer I used to get this white rash all over my body, this discoloration, and I took I can't even tell you how many years in a row that I did like major anti-fungals that are terrible for my gut and terrible for my liver and all these things, because nobody could figure it out. And when I finally got my hormones balanced and got my estrogen dominance under control, how only did my autoimmune go into a? What do we call it? We don't call it curing, because the western medicine community is like there is no such thing as curing Hashimoto's. I'm going to put that out there. That's their position Remission, right. So my Hashimoto's is now in remission, but I also no longer have tinnitus or color. Just doesn't happen, it's gone. And I would have never put those two symptoms together as being related at all.
Speaker 1:
But it was just another one of my alarm. You know, my alarm was going off. It was blazing like oh, this too, check this. And so, hey, always tell women to trust their bodies Like your bodies. Don't lie to you. Your bodies are telling you something that you need to hear for a reason, and I think I really want people to hear from you that this Dutch test can give you such a comprehensive look of what's actually going on in your body. I didn't even know you could do a whole month. That's amazing. Now I want to do that. Now I'm going to call you after this interview and be like okay, let's do this.
Speaker 2:
So it's called the their cycle mapping, and it is. That's what I did and that is really where I've dove in and found like my progesterone was triple normal, which is crazy, and it really is such an investment in figuring out the root of what could be going on. So, just how you were explaining the symptoms, I kind of explain it as like one giant bucket, right? So if there's no holes on the bottom of the bucket and we're just throwing all of these things, all of these stressors whether it is chemical, emotional, physical because the emotional part is often really, really forgot- oh yeah, not at all.
Speaker 1:
We could do a whole episode about that. You're gonna have to come back. Go ahead and touch on it.
Speaker 2:
Yes, so all three of those stressors get poured into your bucket day in and day out and, yes, we have some control over, obviously, what's coming into our homes and the things that we are trying to do and utilize in our lifestyle. But some things we don't have control over and if there is no holes in the bottom of the bucket and we are just putting all of this stuff on, eventually it's going to overflow and that's kind of where we see the symptoms. So I equate it to a cavity as well. The second your cavity hurts. It wasn't just because it came over overnight, it didn't happen like that.
Speaker 2:
So this is like years in the making of all of these things, and when we're able to dump out the bucket before it overflows, we can pick through it a little bit and see what's going on. We can drill some holes in that bucket Once we find out what the root is and what we really need to focus on whether that is liver detoxification because you have too much estrogen, whether it is HPA axis dysfunction you just need a little bit of adaptogenic support. So we need to just see what is going on and poke some holes in that bucket and then, when all of life stressors come because inevitably they will come. We don't.
Speaker 2:
I wish that I could step into every woman that I work with. I wish I could go into their life and just say magically, wave a magic wand, no stress anymore. But I wasn't granted with that gift, unfortunately, but I wish that I could. So stress is going to come, life is going to come, all of these things are going to come, and it's our responsibility to really step up, advocate for ourselves and do what we can to really find out what's going on and find the people who are going to support us, Because I think that's also the biggest thing is finding someone who's actually going to listen and support you.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, I believe our bodies are resilient. I actually believe, like you cannot take all the stress out of your life, your body should be able to handle some stress. It's there for a reason. You cannot get rid of all of the endocrine disrupting toxins in your life. Your body can handle some endocrine disrupting toxins. Our bodies are supposed to be resilient. We're not supposed to remove every stressor. Our goal should be to get to a point in our health and in our mindset and in our nervous system where we can handle it and we can be flexible and our body doesn't like go into overdrive.
Speaker 1:
What you said right, and that's the holes in the bucket Our ability to be resilient. We don't want to avoid all germs. That's not good for us. We want to be able to have that resiliency. The fact that people are coming to me and saying what's a Dutch test Tells me the message is getting out there and women are seeking better care, and by better I mean actual, real health care, because what they're getting now it's not health care, it's not nobody. Nobody's getting healthier, nobody.
Speaker 2:
Now, if anything, the women are getting sicker. They're feeling more disconnected from their bodies than ever, and, especially over the last three, four years, stress has been the highest it ever has, and women are taking the brunt of it. Fortunately, we take the brunt of most of the stress in our day-to-day lives, so it's just really important to hone in and invest in your health and yourself. I think some women don't even know what the Dutch test can do, or what it can look at or who it's for. That's kind of the issue, because I have a lot of women messaging me saying well, I have this going on, or I think I might have this. Would this even be something that could help me? Yeah, and I'm like yes, if you are a cycling woman, yes, men can take it too, which so many men don't know that they can take this. And even when we ran one on my husband, we found really interesting things, which is a story in itself which is really Well, bring him on the podcast.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, yeah, I know I'm thinking I should have my husband call you also. I think we're conditioned. We go to the doctor, they look at, they do blood panels, they tell us X, y and Z and then that's it. That's all the education and understanding that we have, and anything outside of that is not really well understood. But that's a perfect segue. So let's say, somebody's listening to this episode and they're like you know what. I want to do that. So what are ways that people can find you and work with you?
Speaker 2:
So you can always find me on Instagram. That's the best place to find me. I feel like I live on Instagram, but my Instagram handle is the Dr Aaron Vintoso, so D-R-E-R-I-N-V-N-V-E-N-T-O-S-O, so Dr Aaron Vintoso. I share a lot of information there and I talk a lot about cortisol and adrenal health and hormone balance in general. But essentially I work with a lot of women who are struggling with PCOS, who are having extreme fatigue, anxiety, insomnia, depression, really low libido, a lot of sleep issues that I've seen that coming up, especially with the holidays and the change of Weather. I know you were talking about.
Speaker 1:
I can't with this weather. Every time in the winter I'm like take me back to California.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, so getting dark at five is not fun, but it does disrupt so many of our systems and so a lot of women I see at this time their symptoms get a little bit worse and a lot of stress comes along with this season as well. So you can always find me there if you have any questions about the Dutch test, or you can always email me. That's also a really great place because, generally speaking, my emails find me a lot easier.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, I will tag and link all of the ways to find you in the show notes and I will, just for the sake of my audience, let them know they would learn a lot just following you on Instagram, and I know it takes people time to kind of wrap their head around things that are foreign and that they've never heard before, and so I would encourage anybody listening this to go follow Erin, go binge her Instagram. She's got some great free resources and, yeah, I just love you, girl. Thank you for coming back. I love that you were my first repeat guest and I have a feeling this will not be the last time.
Speaker 2:
No, absolutely not. I think we have a lot more to talk about, and I love you too. Thank you for having me. I feel so honored to be coming back already.
Speaker 1:
I love it. It's fantastic. All right, I'll see you next time.